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Posted to dev@jena.apache.org by Matthew Daniel <md...@gmail.com> on 2010/12/06 22:15:12 UTC
I wish to contribute a new tdb example
Hello,
Congratulations on your upcoming move to Apache. :-)
I have an example source, very similar to the ExTDB[1-3].java files
which I feel is closer to a "hello, world" than the three examples
that ship with TDB currently. I think this is relevant, especially in
light of questions such as these:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/jena-dev/message/46166
My example creates a new Dataset, grabs a named (but empty, of course)
Model, opens the Graph for it, inserts a Statement (showing usage of
the IRIFactory) and then persists everything. If it is run again, it
then uses the ARQ API (QueryFactory et al) to show the contents of
that Model. Simple, but I feel that having this kind of example will
lower the cost of entry into TDB (and possibly Jena, seeing as it
touches on so many of the parts).
I saw the message about the Apache contributor agreement
(http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=4CEFC4A7.8000104%40epimorphics.com&forum_name=jena-devel)
but I didn't want to jump through those hoops until I learn whether my
idea would be welcome.
Thank you so much for all the hard work on Jena, and I hope I can
improve it (even if just a little).
-- /v\atthew
Re: Dont' fork the dev lists (Re: I wish to contribute a new tdb example)
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
Re example rather than code - sure that makes sense. It does emphasise need to migrate users quickly and sensibly though.
I withdraw my -1 and make it a -0 (I'd rather see the discussion on asf lists with pointers from other lists, but you are right - small steps when appropriate)
Sent from my mobile device.
On 7 Dec 2010, at 11:49, Andy Seaborne <an...@epimorphics.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> but that still leaves a lot of people receing email.
>
> On 07/12/10 10:41, Ross Gardler wrote:
>> On 07/12/2010 10:18, Andy Seaborne wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 07/12/10 10:00, Ross Gardler wrote:
>>>> On 06/12/2010 23:09, Andy Seaborne wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It's welcome. Send it to jena-dev@groups.yahoo.com and see what the
>>>>> reaction is.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No - the corect dev list is now jena-dev@incubator.apache.org which is
>>>> where this proposal was sent.
>>>> During the changeover people might want to flag important messages on
>>>> the old list with instructions on how to join this one but do not fork
>>>> the conversations - it will damage your community.
>>>
>>>
>>> Ross -
>>>
>>> jena-dev@groups.yahoo.com is the user list (it's name is historic - when
>>> Jena was small there was only one list, and that became the one all the
>>> user questions were on so).
>>>
>>> As we discussed, we'll migrate the user lists but it will be a slow
>>> process during which we'll have two active lists for quite some time.
>>>
>>> jena-devel@lists.sf.net was the developers list.
>>
>> Wow - that's confusing ;-)
>>
>>> jena-dev@incubator.apache.org is the developers list.
>>>
>>> jena-users@incubator.apache.org wil be the users list.
>>
>> -1
>>
>> jena-users@incubator.apache.org *is* the users list
>
> The current user list has 3090 members, many/most of which are read-on-web or no-email, because you have to subscribe to send email. Add some factor for active users and it's still non-trivial.
>
> Migration is not going to happen swiftly and we can't just say "don't email here, email there".
>
>>> I suggested Matthew send it to the current jena users list because it's
>>> active and mayeb we'll get more suggestions.
>>>
>>> We haven't even discussed the mechanics of how we might migrate the user
>>> list in detail.
>>
>> Time to do so then (see below)
>>
>>> We haven't got the project infrastructure running at Apache yet, and
>>> don't know how to accept something submitted and I didn't want Matthews
>>> contribution to get bogged down.
>>
>> Accepting such a donation in your old home will only make more paperwork
>> for everyone when moving it here (unless this contributor happens to
>> already be on your list of iCLAs needed).
>
> Yes - I hope that he will add it JIRA as well to make the ASF legal framework apply.
>
> The contribution is example(s), not code for the core system. I judged it better to get it in front of as many users as possible.
>
>> The first phase is the discussion that you are moving to another list
>> and thus forking. The phase of accepting donations can be handled here
>> quickly even without all your iCLAs on file.
>>
>> My original comment stands, but with different list name now that you've
>> explained the historical naming issue.
>>
>> ASF lists are archived, send a mail to the old list saying something like:
>>
>> "there's an interesting proposal to donate XYZ to our code base. See
>> http://..... for the discussion in our new user list archives. Send an
>> email to jena-users-subscribe@incuvbator.apache.org to join the discussion"
>>
>> Ross
Re: Dont' fork the dev lists (Re: I wish to contribute a new tdb
example)
Posted by Andy Seaborne <an...@epimorphics.com>.
but that still leaves a lot of people receing email.
On 07/12/10 10:41, Ross Gardler wrote:
> On 07/12/2010 10:18, Andy Seaborne wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 07/12/10 10:00, Ross Gardler wrote:
>>> On 06/12/2010 23:09, Andy Seaborne wrote:
>>>
>>>> It's welcome. Send it to jena-dev@groups.yahoo.com and see what the
>>>> reaction is.
>>>>
>>>
>>> No - the corect dev list is now jena-dev@incubator.apache.org which is
>>> where this proposal was sent.
>>> During the changeover people might want to flag important messages on
>>> the old list with instructions on how to join this one but do not fork
>>> the conversations - it will damage your community.
>>
>>
>> Ross -
>>
>> jena-dev@groups.yahoo.com is the user list (it's name is historic - when
>> Jena was small there was only one list, and that became the one all the
>> user questions were on so).
>>
>> As we discussed, we'll migrate the user lists but it will be a slow
>> process during which we'll have two active lists for quite some time.
>>
>> jena-devel@lists.sf.net was the developers list.
>
> Wow - that's confusing ;-)
>
>> jena-dev@incubator.apache.org is the developers list.
>>
>> jena-users@incubator.apache.org wil be the users list.
>
> -1
>
> jena-users@incubator.apache.org *is* the users list
The current user list has 3090 members, many/most of which are
read-on-web or no-email, because you have to subscribe to send email.
Add some factor for active users and it's still non-trivial.
Migration is not going to happen swiftly and we can't just say "don't
email here, email there".
>> I suggested Matthew send it to the current jena users list because it's
>> active and mayeb we'll get more suggestions.
>>
>> We haven't even discussed the mechanics of how we might migrate the user
>> list in detail.
>
> Time to do so then (see below)
>
>> We haven't got the project infrastructure running at Apache yet, and
>> don't know how to accept something submitted and I didn't want Matthews
>> contribution to get bogged down.
>
> Accepting such a donation in your old home will only make more paperwork
> for everyone when moving it here (unless this contributor happens to
> already be on your list of iCLAs needed).
Yes - I hope that he will add it JIRA as well to make the ASF legal
framework apply.
The contribution is example(s), not code for the core system. I judged
it better to get it in front of as many users as possible.
> The first phase is the discussion that you are moving to another list
> and thus forking. The phase of accepting donations can be handled here
> quickly even without all your iCLAs on file.
>
> My original comment stands, but with different list name now that you've
> explained the historical naming issue.
>
> ASF lists are archived, send a mail to the old list saying something like:
>
> "there's an interesting proposal to donate XYZ to our code base. See
> http://..... for the discussion in our new user list archives. Send an
> email to jena-users-subscribe@incuvbator.apache.org to join the discussion"
>
> Ross
Re: jena-users lists (Re: Dont' fork the dev lists)
Posted by Paolo Castagna <ca...@googlemail.com>.
Ross Gardler wrote:
> Sorry for top posting (on mobile)
>
> The sooner we start migration the sooner we finish. Of course we need to be sensitive about that (I'm pushing hard, tell me when I'm unreasonable).
>
> Migration from the @incubator list to @apache lists is automatic and transparent upon graduation.
Great.
>
> Sent from my mobile device.
>
> On 7 Dec 2010, at 11:07, Dave Reynolds <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 2010-12-07 at 10:41 +0000, Ross Gardler wrote:
>>> On 07/12/2010 10:18, Andy Seaborne wrote:
>>>> jena-users@incubator.apache.org wil be the users list.
>>> -1
>>>
>>> jena-users@incubator.apache.org *is* the users list
>> A tangent to the primary discussion but wanted to clarify this point ...
>>
>> Leo seemed to be suggesting that moving *users* from the current
>> (confusingly named) users' list would typically start in a few months
>> time rather than immediately. Are you saying we should start trying to
>> migrate much sooner than that?
>>
>> Second, the use of "incubator" in the mail list name is surprising, not
>> a problem for developers but for users this two-step migration (first
>> into incubator and then out) risks fragmenting user support. Is there
>> some automation that supports users list migration when graduating?
>>
>> Dave
>>
Re: jena-users lists (Re: Dont' fork the dev lists)
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
Sorry for top posting (on mobile)
The sooner we start migration the sooner we finish. Of course we need to be sensitive about that (I'm pushing hard, tell me when I'm unreasonable).
Migration from the @incubator list to @apache lists is automatic and transparent upon graduation.
Sent from my mobile device.
On 7 Dec 2010, at 11:07, Dave Reynolds <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-12-07 at 10:41 +0000, Ross Gardler wrote:
>> On 07/12/2010 10:18, Andy Seaborne wrote:
>
>>> jena-users@incubator.apache.org wil be the users list.
>>
>> -1
>>
>> jena-users@incubator.apache.org *is* the users list
>
> A tangent to the primary discussion but wanted to clarify this point ...
>
> Leo seemed to be suggesting that moving *users* from the current
> (confusingly named) users' list would typically start in a few months
> time rather than immediately. Are you saying we should start trying to
> migrate much sooner than that?
>
> Second, the use of "incubator" in the mail list name is surprising, not
> a problem for developers but for users this two-step migration (first
> into incubator and then out) risks fragmenting user support. Is there
> some automation that supports users list migration when graduating?
>
> Dave
>
jena-users lists (Re: Dont' fork the dev lists)
Posted by Dave Reynolds <da...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, 2010-12-07 at 10:41 +0000, Ross Gardler wrote:
> On 07/12/2010 10:18, Andy Seaborne wrote:
> > jena-users@incubator.apache.org wil be the users list.
>
> -1
>
> jena-users@incubator.apache.org *is* the users list
A tangent to the primary discussion but wanted to clarify this point ...
Leo seemed to be suggesting that moving *users* from the current
(confusingly named) users' list would typically start in a few months
time rather than immediately. Are you saying we should start trying to
migrate much sooner than that?
Second, the use of "incubator" in the mail list name is surprising, not
a problem for developers but for users this two-step migration (first
into incubator and then out) risks fragmenting user support. Is there
some automation that supports users list migration when graduating?
Dave
Re: Dont' fork the dev lists (Re: I wish to contribute a new tdb
example)
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
On 07/12/2010 10:18, Andy Seaborne wrote:
>
>
> On 07/12/10 10:00, Ross Gardler wrote:
>> On 06/12/2010 23:09, Andy Seaborne wrote:
>>
>>> It's welcome. Send it to jena-dev@groups.yahoo.com and see what the
>>> reaction is.
>>>
>>
>> No - the corect dev list is now jena-dev@incubator.apache.org which is
>> where this proposal was sent.
>> During the changeover people might want to flag important messages on
>> the old list with instructions on how to join this one but do not fork
>> the conversations - it will damage your community.
>
>
> Ross -
>
> jena-dev@groups.yahoo.com is the user list (it's name is historic - when
> Jena was small there was only one list, and that became the one all the
> user questions were on so).
>
> As we discussed, we'll migrate the user lists but it will be a slow
> process during which we'll have two active lists for quite some time.
>
> jena-devel@lists.sf.net was the developers list.
Wow - that's confusing ;-)
> jena-dev@incubator.apache.org is the developers list.
>
> jena-users@incubator.apache.org wil be the users list.
-1
jena-users@incubator.apache.org *is* the users list
> I suggested Matthew send it to the current jena users list because it's
> active and mayeb we'll get more suggestions.
>
> We haven't even discussed the mechanics of how we might migrate the user
> list in detail.
Time to do so then (see below)
> We haven't got the project infrastructure running at Apache yet, and
> don't know how to accept something submitted and I didn't want Matthews
> contribution to get bogged down.
Accepting such a donation in your old home will only make more paperwork
for everyone when moving it here (unless this contributor happens to
already be on your list of iCLAs needed).
The first phase is the discussion that you are moving to another list
and thus forking. The phase of accepting donations can be handled here
quickly even without all your iCLAs on file.
My original comment stands, but with different list name now that you've
explained the historical naming issue.
ASF lists are archived, send a mail to the old list saying something like:
"there's an interesting proposal to donate XYZ to our code base. See
http://..... for the discussion in our new user list archives. Send an
email to jena-users-subscribe@incuvbator.apache.org to join the discussion"
Ross
Re: Dont' fork the dev lists (Re: I wish to contribute a new tdb
example)
Posted by Dave Reynolds <da...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, 2010-12-08 at 15:49 +0000, Paolo Castagna wrote:
> Dave Reynolds wrote:
> > On Wed, 2010-12-08 at 14:38 +0000, Paolo Castagna wrote:
> >> Andy Seaborne wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On 07/12/10 10:00, Ross Gardler wrote:
> >>>> On 06/12/2010 23:09, Andy Seaborne wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> It's welcome. Send it to jena-dev@groups.yahoo.com and see what the
> >>>>> reaction is.
> >>>>>
> >>>> No - the corect dev list is now jena-dev@incubator.apache.org which is
> >>>> where this proposal was sent.
> >>>> During the changeover people might want to flag important messages on
> >>>> the old list with instructions on how to join this one but do not fork
> >>>> the conversations - it will damage your community.
> >>>
> >>> Ross -
> >>>
> >>> jena-dev@groups.yahoo.com is the user list (it's name is historic - when
> >>> Jena was small there was only one list, and that became the one all the
> >>> user questions were on so).
> >>>
> >>> As we discussed, we'll migrate the user lists but it will be a slow
> >>> process during which we'll have two active lists for quite some time.
> >> Why will it be a slow process?
> >
> > Because we have 3000 list members who will, or won't, switch in their
> > own time. Plus hundreds of thousands of downloaded copies of Jena whose
> > included documentation points to the existing yahoo-group. Not everyone
> > uses the most recent version and tracks the details of what is going on,
> > we will have people turning up at the yahoo group for a *long* time to
> > come.
>
> We can fix the documentation and clearly (and maybe
definitely
> in advance) communicate
> the change, but other than this I don't see what else we can do.
Nothing, that's my point. The transition will take time.
> >> I would prefer the switch to be as quick as possible and not
> >> have a time where we have two active lists. Of, if we have two
> >> active list, in one (i.e. jena-dev@groups.yahoo.com) we should
> >> just say something like: this is not the correct mailing list,
> >> please, subscribe to jena-users@incubator.apache.org, bla, bla.
> >
> > First, there would need to be a clear message to everyone when the
> > switch will happen and give interested people enough time to subscribe.
> >
> > Second, for a long time after the official switch there will not only be
> > new questions to the yahoo list but a large number of listeners who
> > haven't yet moved. Are you advocating that from the instant of switch
> > over we never answer another question on yahoo but always ask people to
> > jump through another list registration hoop before getting an answer (or
> > seeing the answer to some else's question)?
>
> Yes.
I would prefer a transition period where we answer in situ (copied to
apache list) and encourage moving. Though I guess I would be prepared to
accept the instant-on hard-line approach if that's the consensus.
> This would give a strong incentive to them to migrate. ;-)
Or to drop monitoring the list and miss out on useful discussions.
> Moreover, we should invite others people who reply to move themselves as well.
>
> Sooner or later we want them to migrate, better sooner than later.
>
>
> > That's not the sort of helpfulness we have previously striven for.
>
> Same level of helpfulness will be achieved, only in a different/better (*)
> place.
The lack of helpfulness is the "move or else" response, not the
technical infrastructure of the lists which I regard as largely
irrelevant.
> (*) public archives, search works via Google|third party websites, ...
Current jena-dev has a public archive and is searchable via Google
(though yahoo search is more useful in this specific case) but that's
not the point.
Dave
Re: Dont' fork the dev lists (Re: I wish to contribute a new tdb
example)
Posted by Paolo Castagna <ca...@googlemail.com>.
Dave Reynolds wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-12-08 at 14:38 +0000, Paolo Castagna wrote:
>> Andy Seaborne wrote:
>>>
>>> On 07/12/10 10:00, Ross Gardler wrote:
>>>> On 06/12/2010 23:09, Andy Seaborne wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It's welcome. Send it to jena-dev@groups.yahoo.com and see what the
>>>>> reaction is.
>>>>>
>>>> No - the corect dev list is now jena-dev@incubator.apache.org which is
>>>> where this proposal was sent.
>>>> During the changeover people might want to flag important messages on
>>>> the old list with instructions on how to join this one but do not fork
>>>> the conversations - it will damage your community.
>>>
>>> Ross -
>>>
>>> jena-dev@groups.yahoo.com is the user list (it's name is historic - when
>>> Jena was small there was only one list, and that became the one all the
>>> user questions were on so).
>>>
>>> As we discussed, we'll migrate the user lists but it will be a slow
>>> process during which we'll have two active lists for quite some time.
>> Why will it be a slow process?
>
> Because we have 3000 list members who will, or won't, switch in their
> own time. Plus hundreds of thousands of downloaded copies of Jena whose
> included documentation points to the existing yahoo-group. Not everyone
> uses the most recent version and tracks the details of what is going on,
> we will have people turning up at the yahoo group for a *long* time to
> come.
We can fix the documentation and clearly (and maybe in advance) communicate
the change, but other than this I don't see what else we can do.
>> What are the advantages in making it a slow process?
>
> ??
The process is slow because of reasons we cannot control.
But, depending on what we do, we can make it slower than what it could be.
>> Either we find a way to automate this (and it will be quick),
>> or we must tell the users to switch and it's up to them to
>> decide if they want to do it and when.
>
> We only have the latter option.
>
>> I would prefer the switch to be as quick as possible and not
>> have a time where we have two active lists. Of, if we have two
>> active list, in one (i.e. jena-dev@groups.yahoo.com) we should
>> just say something like: this is not the correct mailing list,
>> please, subscribe to jena-users@incubator.apache.org, bla, bla.
>
> First, there would need to be a clear message to everyone when the
> switch will happen and give interested people enough time to subscribe.
>
> Second, for a long time after the official switch there will not only be
> new questions to the yahoo list but a large number of listeners who
> haven't yet moved. Are you advocating that from the instant of switch
> over we never answer another question on yahoo but always ask people to
> jump through another list registration hoop before getting an answer (or
> seeing the answer to some else's question)?
Yes.
This would give a strong incentive to them to migrate. ;-)
Moreover, we should invite others people who reply to move themselves as well.
Sooner or later we want them to migrate, better sooner than later.
> That's not the sort of helpfulness we have previously striven for.
Same level of helpfulness will be achieved, only in a different/better (*)
place.
Paolo
(*) public archives, search works via Google|third party websites, ...
>
> Dave
>
>
Re: Dont' fork the dev lists (Re: I wish to contribute a new tdb
example)
Posted by Dave Reynolds <da...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, 2010-12-08 at 14:38 +0000, Paolo Castagna wrote:
> Andy Seaborne wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 07/12/10 10:00, Ross Gardler wrote:
> >> On 06/12/2010 23:09, Andy Seaborne wrote:
> >>
> >>> It's welcome. Send it to jena-dev@groups.yahoo.com and see what the
> >>> reaction is.
> >>>
> >>
> >> No - the corect dev list is now jena-dev@incubator.apache.org which is
> >> where this proposal was sent.
> >> During the changeover people might want to flag important messages on
> >> the old list with instructions on how to join this one but do not fork
> >> the conversations - it will damage your community.
> >
> >
> > Ross -
> >
> > jena-dev@groups.yahoo.com is the user list (it's name is historic - when
> > Jena was small there was only one list, and that became the one all the
> > user questions were on so).
> >
> > As we discussed, we'll migrate the user lists but it will be a slow
> > process during which we'll have two active lists for quite some time.
>
> Why will it be a slow process?
Because we have 3000 list members who will, or won't, switch in their
own time. Plus hundreds of thousands of downloaded copies of Jena whose
included documentation points to the existing yahoo-group. Not everyone
uses the most recent version and tracks the details of what is going on,
we will have people turning up at the yahoo group for a *long* time to
come.
> What are the advantages in making it a slow process?
??
> Either we find a way to automate this (and it will be quick),
> or we must tell the users to switch and it's up to them to
> decide if they want to do it and when.
We only have the latter option.
> I would prefer the switch to be as quick as possible and not
> have a time where we have two active lists. Of, if we have two
> active list, in one (i.e. jena-dev@groups.yahoo.com) we should
> just say something like: this is not the correct mailing list,
> please, subscribe to jena-users@incubator.apache.org, bla, bla.
First, there would need to be a clear message to everyone when the
switch will happen and give interested people enough time to subscribe.
Second, for a long time after the official switch there will not only be
new questions to the yahoo list but a large number of listeners who
haven't yet moved. Are you advocating that from the instant of switch
over we never answer another question on yahoo but always ask people to
jump through another list registration hoop before getting an answer (or
seeing the answer to some else's question)? That's not the sort of
helpfulness we have previously striven for.
Dave
Re: Dont' fork the dev lists (Re: I wish to contribute a new tdb
example)
Posted by Dave Reynolds <da...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, 2010-12-09 at 14:17 +0000, Ian Dickinson wrote:
> On 09/12/10 14:15, Andy Seaborne wrote:
> > So I suggest we all start mentioning the existence of the new list. We
> > can see how the migration flow goes, and make a pragmatic decision as to
> > what to do when we get a sense for the switch over.
> +1
+1
Dave
Re: Dont' fork the dev lists (Re: I wish to contribute a new tdb
example)
Posted by Ian Dickinson <ia...@epimorphics.com>.
On 09/12/10 14:15, Andy Seaborne wrote:
> So I suggest we all start mentioning the existence of the new list. We
> can see how the migration flow goes, and make a pragmatic decision as to
> what to do when we get a sense for the switch over.
+1
Ian
--
____________________________________________________________
Ian Dickinson Epimorphics Ltd, Bristol, UK
mailto:ian@epimorphics.com http://www.epimorphics.com
cell: +44-7786-850536 landline: +44-1275-399069
------------------------------------------------------------
Epimorphics Ltd. is a limited company registered in England
(no. 7016688). Registered address: Court Lodge, 105 High St,
Portishead, Bristol BS20 6PT, UK
Re: Migrating jena-dev@Y!
Posted by Ian Dickinson <ia...@epimorphics.com>.
On 14/12/10 17:18, Andy Seaborne wrote:
> Suggestion:
>
> jena-devel@SF:
>
> Send a message to jena-devel@SF to say discussions have moved. People
> have probably already guessed we use jena-dev@ASF.
>
> jena-dev@yahoo:
>
> Send a message to say that jena-users@ASF is now open and see how it
> goes. Move to a more direct policy at some point based on experience.
>
> This attempts to reduce the admin before switching to more actively moving.
+1, works for me.
Incidentally, I didn't see Ross' original message (and it's not in my
spam folder, I checked).
Ian
--
____________________________________________________________
Ian Dickinson Epimorphics Ltd, Bristol, UK
mailto:ian@epimorphics.com http://www.epimorphics.com
cell: +44-7786-850536 landline: +44-1275-399069
------------------------------------------------------------
Epimorphics Ltd. is a limited company registered in England
(no. 7016688). Registered address: Court Lodge, 105 High St,
Portishead, Bristol BS20 6PT, UK
Migrating jena-dev@Y!
Posted by Andy Seaborne <an...@epimorphics.com>.
On 09/12/10 14:52, Ross Gardler wrote:
>> So I suggest we all start mentioning the existence of the new list. We
>> can see how the migration flow goes, and make a pragmatic decision as to
>> what to do when we get a sense for the switch over.
>
> Options I see
>
> - turn off yahoo list and force people here
>
> - reply to all new threads on the old list with a request to send to the
> ASF lists where support will be provided
>
> - repost all ASF mails to the Yahoo list with a header informing people
> that to participate in the discussion they need to migrate to the ASF list
>
> - set the Yahoo list to moderated posting and ask to send to ASF list
>
> - gently nudge people to the ASF list but still provide support on the
> yahoo list
>
> I'd recommend the second option, the first and last options are not
> really helpful in my opinion. The third option could work too, but
> involves some technical configuration.
>
> Just my 2 cents - it's your community
>
> Ross
Ross's list seem to capture all the options for list migration.
* We have list moderators in place now
* openjena.org points to jena-users@, as does the documentation in the
latest release.
Suggestion:
jena-devel@SF:
Send a message to jena-devel@SF to say discussions have moved. People
have probably already guessed we use jena-dev@ASF.
jena-dev@yahoo:
Send a message to say that jena-users@ASF is now open and see how it
goes. Move to a more direct policy at some point based on experience.
This attempts to reduce the admin before switching to more actively moving.
Andy
Re: Dont' fork the dev lists (Re: I wish to contribute a new tdb
example)
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
On 09/12/2010 14:15, Andy Seaborne wrote:
>
>
> On 09/12/10 10:46, Paolo Castagna wrote:
>> On 8 December 2010 18:10, Leo Simons<ma...@leosimons.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 2:38 PM, Paolo Castagna
>>> <ca...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>> Andy Seaborne wrote:
>>>>> As we discussed, we'll migrate the user lists but it will be a slow
>>>>> process during which we'll have two active lists for quite some time.
>>> ...
>>>> Either we find a way to automate this (and it will be quick),
>>>> or we must tell the users to switch and it's up to them to
>>>> decide if they want to do it and when.
>>>
>>> When people post on apache mailing lists anything they post is
>>> 'automatically' Contribution to the apache software foundation (per
>>> the apache license and per the CLA [1]). This is a difference from the
>>> current jena-dev@yahoo. So auto-subscribing people in bulk is bad,
>>> since it makes them rather less aware of that difference.
>>>
>>> There's possible hairy discussions about etiquette/privacy/etc as well
>>> ("Given yahoo groups privacy policy, is it acceptable to give this set
>>> of e-mail addresses to the ASF?"), but because we have this legalese
>>> argument anyway, we don't have to go into those discussions.
>>> Convenient :)
>>
>> Good point, and another reason to do the switch as soon as possible.
>>
>> We are left with the problem of when do we tell people they should
>> switch mailing list and how persistently we tell them.
>>
>> I am in favour of "as soon as possible" and an "hard-line" approach.
>>
>> Paolo
>
> I'm not - I think we have to manage the transition so as to not
> discourage users. Users are what matter. We do have a lot of mentions of
> jena-on-yahoo in documentation and I don't want to drop people using
> older minor versions.
>
> That means continuing to answer questions sent to jena-on-yahoo. I'm
> only just coping with the email flow there at the moment so I'm hardly
> keen to generate more work but I don't feel we can just drop jena-on-yahoo.
I don't think anyone is suggesting "just dropping it". Certainly I'm
not. I'm suggesting preventing discussion on the old lists and insisting
people come here.
I understand your point about looking after the users, my motivation is
the same. New users will be coming to the ASF lists and thus you will be
forking your user engagement efforts.
The longer you delay closing off discussions on the old lists the more
separation is created.
> So I suggest we all start mentioning the existence of the new list. We
> can see how the migration flow goes, and make a pragmatic decision as to
> what to do when we get a sense for the switch over.
Options I see
- turn off yahoo list and force people here
- reply to all new threads on the old list with a request to send to the
ASF lists where support will be provided
- repost all ASF mails to the Yahoo list with a header informing people
that to participate in the discussion they need to migrate to the ASF list
- set the Yahoo list to moderated posting and ask to send to ASF list
- gently nudge people to the ASF list but still provide support on the
yahoo list
I'd recommend the second option, the first and last options are not
really helpful in my opinion. The third option could work too, but
involves some technical configuration.
Just my 2 cents - it's your community
Ross
--
rgardler@apache.org
@rgardler
Re: Dont' fork the dev lists (Re: I wish to contribute a new tdb
example)
Posted by Andy Seaborne <an...@epimorphics.com>.
On 09/12/10 10:46, Paolo Castagna wrote:
> On 8 December 2010 18:10, Leo Simons<ma...@leosimons.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 2:38 PM, Paolo Castagna
>> <ca...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>> Andy Seaborne wrote:
>>>> As we discussed, we'll migrate the user lists but it will be a slow
>>>> process during which we'll have two active lists for quite some time.
>> ...
>>> Either we find a way to automate this (and it will be quick),
>>> or we must tell the users to switch and it's up to them to
>>> decide if they want to do it and when.
>>
>> When people post on apache mailing lists anything they post is
>> 'automatically' Contribution to the apache software foundation (per
>> the apache license and per the CLA [1]). This is a difference from the
>> current jena-dev@yahoo. So auto-subscribing people in bulk is bad,
>> since it makes them rather less aware of that difference.
>>
>> There's possible hairy discussions about etiquette/privacy/etc as well
>> ("Given yahoo groups privacy policy, is it acceptable to give this set
>> of e-mail addresses to the ASF?"), but because we have this legalese
>> argument anyway, we don't have to go into those discussions.
>> Convenient :)
>
> Good point, and another reason to do the switch as soon as possible.
>
> We are left with the problem of when do we tell people they should
> switch mailing list and how persistently we tell them.
>
> I am in favour of "as soon as possible" and an "hard-line" approach.
>
> Paolo
I'm not - I think we have to manage the transition so as to not
discourage users. Users are what matter. We do have a lot of mentions
of jena-on-yahoo in documentation and I don't want to drop people using
older minor versions.
That means continuing to answer questions sent to jena-on-yahoo. I'm
only just coping with the email flow there at the moment so I'm hardly
keen to generate more work but I don't feel we can just drop jena-on-yahoo.
So I suggest we all start mentioning the existence of the new list. We
can see how the migration flow goes, and make a pragmatic decision as to
what to do when we get a sense for the switch over.
Andy
Re: Dont' fork the dev lists (Re: I wish to contribute a new tdb example)
Posted by Paolo Castagna <ca...@googlemail.com>.
On 8 December 2010 18:10, Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 2:38 PM, Paolo Castagna
> <ca...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> Andy Seaborne wrote:
>>> As we discussed, we'll migrate the user lists but it will be a slow
>>> process during which we'll have two active lists for quite some time.
> ...
>> Either we find a way to automate this (and it will be quick),
>> or we must tell the users to switch and it's up to them to
>> decide if they want to do it and when.
>
> When people post on apache mailing lists anything they post is
> 'automatically' Contribution to the apache software foundation (per
> the apache license and per the CLA [1]). This is a difference from the
> current jena-dev@yahoo. So auto-subscribing people in bulk is bad,
> since it makes them rather less aware of that difference.
>
> There's possible hairy discussions about etiquette/privacy/etc as well
> ("Given yahoo groups privacy policy, is it acceptable to give this set
> of e-mail addresses to the ASF?"), but because we have this legalese
> argument anyway, we don't have to go into those discussions.
> Convenient :)
Good point, and another reason to do the switch as soon as possible.
We are left with the problem of when do we tell people they should
switch mailing list and how persistently we tell them.
I am in favour of "as soon as possible" and an "hard-line" approach.
Paolo
>
>
> cheers,
>
>
> Leo
>
> [1] from http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0.txt (highlight mine) :
>> "Contribution" shall mean any work of authorship, including
>> the original version of the Work and any modifications or additions
>> to that Work or Derivative Works thereof, that is intentionally
>> submitted to Licensor for inclusion in the Work by the copyright owner
>> or by an individual or Legal Entity authorized to submit on behalf of
>> the copyright owner. For the purposes of this definition, "submitted"
>> means any form of electronic, verbal, or written communication sent
>> to the Licensor or its representatives, INCLUDING but not limited to
>> COMMUNICATION ON ELECTRONIC MAILING LISTS, source code control systems,
>> and issue tracking systems THAT ARE MANAGED BY, or on behalf of, the
>> LICENSOR for the purpose of discussing and improving the Work, but
>> excluding communication that is conspicuously marked or otherwise
>> designated in writing by the copyright owner as "Not a Contribution."
>
Re: Dont' fork the dev lists (Re: I wish to contribute a new tdb example)
Posted by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>.
On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 2:38 PM, Paolo Castagna
<ca...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Andy Seaborne wrote:
>> As we discussed, we'll migrate the user lists but it will be a slow
>> process during which we'll have two active lists for quite some time.
...
> Either we find a way to automate this (and it will be quick),
> or we must tell the users to switch and it's up to them to
> decide if they want to do it and when.
When people post on apache mailing lists anything they post is
'automatically' Contribution to the apache software foundation (per
the apache license and per the CLA [1]). This is a difference from the
current jena-dev@yahoo. So auto-subscribing people in bulk is bad,
since it makes them rather less aware of that difference.
There's possible hairy discussions about etiquette/privacy/etc as well
("Given yahoo groups privacy policy, is it acceptable to give this set
of e-mail addresses to the ASF?"), but because we have this legalese
argument anyway, we don't have to go into those discussions.
Convenient :)
cheers,
Leo
[1] from http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0.txt (highlight mine) :
> "Contribution" shall mean any work of authorship, including
> the original version of the Work and any modifications or additions
> to that Work or Derivative Works thereof, that is intentionally
> submitted to Licensor for inclusion in the Work by the copyright owner
> or by an individual or Legal Entity authorized to submit on behalf of
> the copyright owner. For the purposes of this definition, "submitted"
> means any form of electronic, verbal, or written communication sent
> to the Licensor or its representatives, INCLUDING but not limited to
> COMMUNICATION ON ELECTRONIC MAILING LISTS, source code control systems,
> and issue tracking systems THAT ARE MANAGED BY, or on behalf of, the
> LICENSOR for the purpose of discussing and improving the Work, but
> excluding communication that is conspicuously marked or otherwise
> designated in writing by the copyright owner as "Not a Contribution."
Re: Dont' fork the dev lists (Re: I wish to contribute a new tdb
example)
Posted by Paolo Castagna <ca...@googlemail.com>.
Andy Seaborne wrote:
>
>
> On 07/12/10 10:00, Ross Gardler wrote:
>> On 06/12/2010 23:09, Andy Seaborne wrote:
>>
>>> It's welcome. Send it to jena-dev@groups.yahoo.com and see what the
>>> reaction is.
>>>
>>
>> No - the corect dev list is now jena-dev@incubator.apache.org which is
>> where this proposal was sent.
>> During the changeover people might want to flag important messages on
>> the old list with instructions on how to join this one but do not fork
>> the conversations - it will damage your community.
>
>
> Ross -
>
> jena-dev@groups.yahoo.com is the user list (it's name is historic - when
> Jena was small there was only one list, and that became the one all the
> user questions were on so).
>
> As we discussed, we'll migrate the user lists but it will be a slow
> process during which we'll have two active lists for quite some time.
Why will it be a slow process?
What are the advantages in making it a slow process?
Either we find a way to automate this (and it will be quick),
or we must tell the users to switch and it's up to them to
decide if they want to do it and when.
I would prefer the switch to be as quick as possible and not
have a time where we have two active lists. Of, if we have two
active list, in one (i.e. jena-dev@groups.yahoo.com) we should
just say something like: this is not the correct mailing list,
please, subscribe to jena-users@incubator.apache.org, bla, bla.
About the timing, I have a preference for sooner rather than
later. But not before everything from a point of view of the
infrastructure and accounts has been correctly setup.
Paolo
>
> jena-devel@lists.sf.net was the developers list.
>
> jena-dev@incubator.apache.org is the developers list.
>
> jena-users@incubator.apache.org wil be the users list.
>
>
> I suggested Matthew send it to the current jena users list because it's
> active and mayeb we'll get more suggestions.
>
> We haven't even discussed the mechanics of how we might migrate the user
> list in detail.
>
> We haven't got the project infrastructure running at Apache yet, and
> don't know how to accept something submitted and I didn't want Matthews
> contribution to get bogged down.
>
> Andy
Re: Dont' fork the dev lists (Re: I wish to contribute a new tdb
example)
Posted by Andy Seaborne <an...@epimorphics.com>.
On 07/12/10 10:00, Ross Gardler wrote:
> On 06/12/2010 23:09, Andy Seaborne wrote:
>
>> It's welcome. Send it to jena-dev@groups.yahoo.com and see what the
>> reaction is.
>>
>
> No - the corect dev list is now jena-dev@incubator.apache.org which is
> where this proposal was sent.
> During the changeover people might want to flag important messages on
> the old list with instructions on how to join this one but do not fork
> the conversations - it will damage your community.
Ross -
jena-dev@groups.yahoo.com is the user list (it's name is historic - when
Jena was small there was only one list, and that became the one all the
user questions were on so).
As we discussed, we'll migrate the user lists but it will be a slow
process during which we'll have two active lists for quite some time.
jena-devel@lists.sf.net was the developers list.
jena-dev@incubator.apache.org is the developers list.
jena-users@incubator.apache.org wil be the users list.
I suggested Matthew send it to the current jena users list because it's
active and mayeb we'll get more suggestions.
We haven't even discussed the mechanics of how we might migrate the user
list in detail.
We haven't got the project infrastructure running at Apache yet, and
don't know how to accept something submitted and I didn't want Matthews
contribution to get bogged down.
Andy
Dont' fork the dev lists (Re: I wish to contribute a new tdb example)
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
On 06/12/2010 23:09, Andy Seaborne wrote:
> It's welcome. Send it to jena-dev@groups.yahoo.com and see what the
> reaction is.
>
No - the corect dev list is now jena-dev@incubator.apache.org which is
where this proposal was sent.
During the changeover people might want to flag important messages on
the old list with instructions on how to join this one but do not fork
the conversations - it will damage your community.
Re: I wish to contribute a new tdb example
Posted by Andy Seaborne <an...@epimorphics.com>.
On 06/12/10 21:15, Matthew Daniel wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Congratulations on your upcoming move to Apache. :-)
>
> I have an example source, very similar to the ExTDB[1-3].java files
> which I feel is closer to a "hello, world" than the three examples
> that ship with TDB currently. I think this is relevant, especially in
> light of questions such as these:
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/jena-dev/message/46166
>
> My example creates a new Dataset, grabs a named (but empty, of course)
> Model, opens the Graph for it, inserts a Statement (showing usage of
> the IRIFactory) and then persists everything. If it is run again, it
> then uses the ARQ API (QueryFactory et al) to show the contents of
> that Model. Simple, but I feel that having this kind of example will
> lower the cost of entry into TDB (and possibly Jena, seeing as it
> touches on so many of the parts).
>
> I saw the message about the Apache contributor agreement
> (http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=4CEFC4A7.8000104%40epimorphics.com&forum_name=jena-devel)
> but I didn't want to jump through those hoops until I learn whether my
> idea would be welcome.
It's welcome. Send it to jena-dev@groups.yahoo.com and see what the
reaction is.
For adding something like this, there is a lighter weight way. Only
committers need to sign an ICLA, and software grants are only needed
separately for large blobs of pre-existing code.
When we're in Apache, you can contribute by putting it on the Jena JIRA
as a patch file.
This implies the necessary legal permission for ASF to use the patch
just by the act of doing it (the Jira installation has a note about this
when you create the entry, I think - we're all a bit new to Apache
processes).
Some committer then handles it - I think (we new to this ...) by making
sure the project group is OK with it and then applying the patch. Or
the other way round. The point is an email goes to the public
development mailing list for everyone, inc committers, to see. For
added examples, it's a bit of a no-op, but it means it's "the project"
dciding, not one person in isolation. It's no work for the contributor
- they just upload patch to JIRA. We'd be swamped by (electronic)
paperwork otherwise.
The full details are:
http://www.apache.org/foundation/getinvolved.html
> Thank you so much for all the hard work on Jena, and I hope I can
> improve it (even if just a little).
The more, the merrier.
>
> -- /v\atthew
Thins may be a bit slow as we get sorted out but JIRA never forgets. If
you could send it for now to jena-dev@groups.yahoo.com then submit it
when we are up and running properly at Apache.
Andy