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Posted to dev@avalon.apache.org by Paul Hammant <pa...@yahoo.com> on 2003/02/17 14:04:45 UTC
What to do with Sevak.
Folks,
We've had a number of ideas on what to do with Sevak, given we have license issues. I think the
last idea was:
* Keep Sevak API at Apache
* Keep Catalina impl at Apache
* Move Jo! impl to Sourceforge
* Move Jetty impl to Sourceforge
With respect to the former, I think sevak api should go to say incubator. The catalina impl
should either go with it, or end up with Catalina (as a separate download?).
The Jo! impl should go to SouceForge. With Jo! at http://sourceforge.net/projects/tagtraum-jo
maybe.
The Jetty impl should be with http://sourceforge.net/projects/jetty as a module as the JBoss
plugin is.
The is also merit to having the Jo and Jetty Sevak impls together in the same (new) SourceForge
project.
Thoughts?
- Paul
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Re: What to do with Sevak.
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Paul Hammant wrote, On 17/02/2003 14.04:
> Folks,
>
> We've had a number of ideas on what to do with Sevak, given we have license issues. I think the
> last idea was:
>
> * Keep Sevak API at Apache
> * Keep Catalina impl at Apache
> * Move Jo! impl to Sourceforge
> * Move Jetty impl to Sourceforge
+1
> With respect to the former, I think sevak api should go to say incubator. The catalina impl
> should either go with it, or end up with Catalina (as a separate download?).
I'd really keep all here. It's very tied with Avalon, and does not need
incubation.
> The Jo! impl should go to SouceForge. With Jo! at http://sourceforge.net/projects/tagtraum-jo
> maybe.
>
> The Jetty impl should be with http://sourceforge.net/projects/jetty as a module as the JBoss
> plugin is.
If these projects are ok with keeping them and will take care of them,
ok. But I have a feeling that they wonì't take care of them much, at
least ATM. So...
> The is also merit to having the Jo and Jetty Sevak impls together in the same (new) SourceForge
> project.
This could have more sense. But Jetty has a license that is compatible
with us, so we could keep it here.
In th end, we could keep all the ones that we can keep (Catalina &
Jetty) here, and the others in the respective projects (if will be
maintained) or in a single project.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: What to do with Sevak.
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@realityforge.org>.
On Tue, 18 Feb 2003 00:04, Paul Hammant wrote:
> * Keep Sevak API at Apache
> * Keep Catalina impl at Apache
> * Move Jo! impl to Sourceforge
> * Move Jetty impl to Sourceforge
Keep them all together as else it will be hell to maintain and use. So move
them all out to somewhere where they can evolve in lockstep and still be easy
to develop things with.
--
Cheers,
Peter Donald
*------------------------------------------------------*
| "Religion is what the common people see as true, the |
| wise people see as false, and the rulers see as |
| useful" --Seneca |
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Re: What to do with Sevak.
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Paul:
My preference is to keep Servak here as I think there is still more
cooking to be done on this particular facility. What exactly are the
license issues that would need to deal with?
Cheers, Steve.
Paul Hammant wrote:
>Folks,
>
>We've had a number of ideas on what to do with Sevak, given we have license issues. I think the
>last idea was:
>
>* Keep Sevak API at Apache
>* Keep Catalina impl at Apache
>* Move Jo! impl to Sourceforge
>* Move Jetty impl to Sourceforge
>
>With respect to the former, I think sevak api should go to say incubator. The catalina impl
>should either go with it, or end up with Catalina (as a separate download?).
>
>The Jo! impl should go to SouceForge. With Jo! at http://sourceforge.net/projects/tagtraum-jo
>maybe.
>
>The Jetty impl should be with http://sourceforge.net/projects/jetty as a module as the JBoss
>plugin is.
>
>The is also merit to having the Jo and Jetty Sevak impls together in the same (new) SourceForge
>project.
>
>Thoughts?
>
>- Paul
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Everything you'll ever need on one web page
>from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
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>
>
>
>
--
Stephen J. McConnell
mailto:mcconnell@apache.org
http://www.osm.net
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Re: What to do with Sevak.
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@realityforge.org>.
On Tue, 18 Feb 2003 04:30, Ulrich Mayring wrote:
> Seriously, I don't want to spoil the party, but it sounds braindead to
> me that we have to move our own, self-written code out of Apache, even
> if everyone wants it to stay.
Since when have you known politics to be sensible? :)
--
Cheers,
Peter Donald
He strains to hear a whisper who refuses to hear a shout.
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Re: What to do with Sevak.
Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
Ulrich Mayring wrote:
> Paul Hammant wrote:
>
>>
>> We have had instruction on 'import'. Jars here or there are irrelvant.
>
> Hello Paul,
>
> so what about Sun's Java License? We're doing many imports of JDK
> public APIs :)
>
> Seriously, I don't want to spoil the party, but it sounds braindead to
> me that we have to move our own, self-written code out of Apache, even
> if everyone wants it to stay.
Hey Ulrich,
the licensing story is long and (too) complicated, but the ASF position
does make sense. You can read more about it in the recent
community@apache archives
(http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/SummarizeList?listId=135), in the
general@jakarta archives
(http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/SummarizeList?listId=19), and on the
wiki (http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?Licensing).
The best thing to do to avoid "spoiling the party" is to use only
BSD-style license libraries, or get authors of (L)GPL or otherwise
"virally" licensed stuff to relicense their materials.
cheers,
- Leo
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Re: What to do with Sevak.
Posted by Paul Hammant <pa...@yahoo.com>.
Ulrich,
> so what about Sun's Java License? We're doing many imports of JDK public
> APIs :)
I tend to agree. However, for teh record, APIs provided by the compilation environment as a
default are typically exempt from the complex licensing situations. The GPL itself, however
amazingly viral, grants exemption from viral infection to all things provided by the default
compile out of the box. Thus the Windows API as provided by VC++ does not have to be GPL
compatible in order for a so using application to be designated GPL.
In Java a great example is the SAX API. Asit is shipped with the JDK, GPL software can use Xerces
via it. The direct import of org.apache.* into a GPL source file is verbotten. Via the SAX API, it
is just fine - because the coder could late swap a GPL & SAX compatible XML parser.
Anyway, you ask abour rt.jar. Well, all license scenarios are typically generous for default
runtime APIs. It is a different case for javax.servlet and other 'blessed' though.
For those that really want to study the gotchas of licenses, look at MS's .Net licenses - various
runtime restrictions.
> Seriously, I don't want to spoil the party, but it sounds braindead to
> me that we have to move our own, self-written code out of Apache, even
> if everyone wants it to stay.
- Paul
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Re: What to do with Sevak.
Posted by Ulrich Mayring <ul...@denic.de>.
Paul Hammant wrote:
>
> We have had instruction on 'import'. Jars here or there are irrelvant.
Hello Paul,
so what about Sun's Java License? We're doing many imports of JDK public
APIs :)
Seriously, I don't want to spoil the party, but it sounds braindead to
me that we have to move our own, self-written code out of Apache, even
if everyone wants it to stay.
Ulrich
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Re: What to do with Sevak.
Posted by Peter Royal <pr...@apache.org>.
On Monday, February 17, 2003, at 12:07 PM, Paul Hammant wrote:
>> I can understand Jo! since it is GPL.
>
> You mean LGPL, which is very different to teh GPL, but similarly
> forbidden for use (import) at
> Apache.
right :)
>> But Jetty's license is based off
>> the artistic license. What's wrong with that?
>
> It is similar to the Hypersonic one, in that an org "Mort Bay
> Consulting Pty. Ltd" is mentioned
> quite a bit. Nothing wrong with that excpet we have got nervous here
> recently.
>
> I'm not proposing we kille JettySevak, just move it somewhere else.
I think it will be easier to maintain if we keep it all in one place..
so if we move somewhere, I'd like to move it all.
-pete
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Re: What to do with Sevak.
Posted by Paul Hammant <pa...@yahoo.com>.
> > Sevak API is fine. The impls, clearly, import other people's
> > codebases. "using public APIs" also
> > counts GPL. Here we are only talking about LGPL and a proprietary
> > credit-affording license for
> > Jetty.
>
> I can understand Jo! since it is GPL.
You mean LGPL, which is very different to teh GPL, but similarly forbidden for use (import) at
Apache.
> But Jetty's license is based off
> the artistic license. What's wrong with that?
It is similar to the Hypersonic one, in that an org "Mort Bay Consulting Pty. Ltd" is mentioned
quite a bit. Nothing wrong with that excpet we have got nervous here recently.
I'm not proposing we kille JettySevak, just move it somewhere else.
Regards,
- Paul
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Re: What to do with Sevak.
Posted by Peter Royal <pr...@apache.org>.
On Monday, February 17, 2003, at 09:33 AM, Paul Hammant wrote:
> Sevak API is fine. The impls, clearly, import other people's
> codebases. "using public APIs" also
> counts GPL. Here we are only talking about LGPL and a proprietary
> credit-affording license for
> Jetty.
I can understand Jo! since it is GPL. But Jetty's license is based off
the artistic license. What's wrong with that?
-pete
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Re: What to do with Sevak.
Posted by Paul Hammant <pa...@yahoo.com>.
Ulrich,
> > With respect to the former, I think sevak api should go to say incubator. The catalina impl
> > should either go with it, or end up with Catalina (as a separate download?).
>
> I think the Sevak API should remain with Phoenix, because it is a
> central feature to an application server, much like JMX. Since Sevak is
> usable with Merlin as well, it might also be conceivable to move it to
> Excalibur.
It goes without saying that it should work with Phoenix, Merlin and the replacement.
Excalibur is plain wrong for this.
> > The is also merit to having the Jo and Jetty Sevak impls together in the same (new)
> SourceForge
> > project.
>
> I'm not sure what licensing issues could conceivably exist with the
> implementations. Sevak is just using the public APIs of 3rd party
> products. Surely there can't be any licensing issues with using public APIs?
Sevak API is fine. The impls, clearly, import other people's codebases. "using public APIs" also
counts GPL. Here we are only talking about LGPL and a proprietary credit-affording license for
Jetty.
> The JARs don't have to be in Apache's CVS, they could be extra
> downloads. I'm all for making it as easy as possible for users.
We have had instruction on 'import'. Jars here or there are irrelvant.
- Paul
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Re: What to do with Sevak.
Posted by Ulrich Mayring <ul...@denic.de>.
Paul Hammant wrote:
>
> With respect to the former, I think sevak api should go to say incubator. The catalina impl
> should either go with it, or end up with Catalina (as a separate download?).
I think the Sevak API should remain with Phoenix, because it is a
central feature to an application server, much like JMX. Since Sevak is
usable with Merlin as well, it might also be conceivable to move it to
Excalibur.
> The Jo! impl should go to SouceForge. With Jo! at http://sourceforge.net/projects/tagtraum-jo
> maybe.
>
> The Jetty impl should be with http://sourceforge.net/projects/jetty as a module as the JBoss
> plugin is.
>
> The is also merit to having the Jo and Jetty Sevak impls together in the same (new) SourceForge
> project.
I'm not sure what licensing issues could conceivably exist with the
implementations. Sevak is just using the public APIs of 3rd party
products. Surely there can't be any licensing issues with using public APIs?
The JARs don't have to be in Apache's CVS, they could be extra
downloads. I'm all for making it as easy as possible for users.
Ulrich
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