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Posted to dev@flex.apache.org by Douglas Arthur <da...@vmware.com> on 2012/01/13 20:30:00 UTC
flex-users mailing list (starting over)
Bertrand sent out an initial email with the subject "Do we want a flex-users list now, and who volunteers to moderate it?" [1]. This was a follow up of the subject "IRC Channel link on website?" [2].
In a subsequent follow up, Bertrand clarified his statement to read as follows: "...if some (say at least 3) PPMC members think it's a good idea to have a users mailing list now, and agree to moderate it, I'd say let's create it." [3]
Bertrand, if you disagree after all the emails being thrown around yesterday, I'll let this rest. So please chime in here if you can.
There are a few strong reasons I feel this list should be created now. I will list them out here.
1. Users can subscribe to the flex-users list so they don't have to shuffle through the slew of emails being generated on the flex-dev list.
a. We can then post to the list when the first release is done, and those users will be notified via the list.
b. Users can suggest features there for now, or have conversations of their own on the future of Apache Flex without being mingled into our discussions and productivity of moving things forward. Of course, discussions on features or anything we think will be done with the project will have to have further discussions on the flex-dev list with the idea that "if it doesn't happen here, it didn't happen".
2. I think everyone has agreed that we will eventually need this list anyhow. What's the harm in creating it now if the volunteer moderators are willing to accept the responsibility to make sure important conversations don't happen there, and that help for Adobe Flex is redirected to the appropriate resources rather than being discussed on the flex-users list. [4]
3. Having this user list now will help create that community for when the release is made available.
Again, to clarify, the moderators would be responsible for making sure discussions that belong on the flex-dev list find their way there. Part of the arguments from yesterday where surrounding the discussion on "Best Coding Practices". It's very strong that the consensus from the community is to NOT have that discussion on the flex-users list, and I completely agree. That discussion belongs here on the flex-dev list. I don't want that discussion to sway this discussion in any way. Please keep that discussion separate from the need of creating the flex-users list, they are completely different topics, keep it that way - I'll shut up about that now.
I expect this list to be low volume initially. It'll be a good low volume channel that users can subscribe to so they can stay in the loop of the progress of the Apache Flex project, without having to be bombarded by emails that are pointless to them, and then getting lost in all the shuffle. If the list grows, moderator's that volunteer will be responsible for managing it, let those volunteers decide if they responsibility now, or later.
I may have repeated myself in several ways here, I apologize for the long email. I just want it to be really clear to the purpose, and I haven't heard anyone speak to any of my points yet. So please, I want to hear why or why not on whether my ideas or good or bad.
Finally, in the previous thread, there were enough volunteers (unless they want to withdraw now?). In addition, is there anyone else willing to volunteer?
1. Myself
2. Anne Kathrine Petterøe [5]
3. Jeffry Houser [6]
[1] http://markmail.org/message/hul5gatl5vlgsxhc
[2] http://markmail.org/message/lobaecgn4q2qvm37
[3][4] http://markmail.org/message/sbuho7p4tcmn4zy6
[5] http://markmail.org/message/pmoaxe7dhe73ekle
[6] http://markmail.org/message/c2hd6qna244tftzr
Re: flex-users mailing list (starting over)
Posted by Michael Schmalle <mi...@teotigraphix.com>.
Quoting Brent Arnold <br...@brentarnold.com>:
> See how I tried to sneak that in there... ;-)
>
> I will certainly be contributing in any way that I can.
>
> Brent
>
>> In general, you need to be a Apache committer to be a moderator (and I
>> don't think you are one?)
>>
>> I hope this works for you.
>> -Bertrand
>>
>
Brent remember what Dave just said, being a committer is not all about
code it's doing things to grow the community as well. I'm sure the
PPMC members will be looking for people that are doing just that to
elect as committers in the future.
Mike
Re: flex-users mailing list (starting over)
Posted by Brent Arnold <br...@brentarnold.com>.
See how I tried to sneak that in there... ;-)
I will certainly be contributing in any way that I can.
Brent
> In general, you need to be a Apache committer to be a moderator (and I
> don't think you are one?)
>
> I hope this works for you.
> -Bertrand
>
Re: flex-users mailing list (starting over)
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 8:50 PM, Brent Arnold <br...@brentarnold.com> wrote:
> I agree as well, and would like to be a moderator on the new list...
In general, you need to be a Apache committer to be a moderator (and I
don't think you are one?)
We might be able to make an exception if that's really needed, but
considering we have already 3 volunteers from the PPMC (
http://incubator.apache.org/flex/team.html ) I don't think that's
needed in this case.
Of course, that only applies to the technical moderation of the list (
http://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mail-moderate ) - you are
very welcome to join the list once it's created, contribute to
discussions and "moderate" them as in helping them make sense!
I hope this works for you.
-Bertrand
Re: flex-users mailing list (starting over)
Posted by Brent Arnold <br...@brentarnold.com>.
I agree as well, and would like to be a moderator on the new list.
Brent Arnold
On 1/13/12 12:40 PM, Jeffry Houser wrote:
> On 1/13/2012 2:30 PM, Douglas Arthur wrote:
>>
>> Finally, in the previous thread, there were enough volunteers (unless
>> they want to withdraw now?). In addition, is there anyone else
>> willing to volunteer?
>>
>> 3. Jeffry Houser [6]
>>
>> [6] http://markmail.org/message/c2hd6qna244tftzr
>
> I'm still on board, and agree with your reasons why the list should
> be created sooner than later.
>
>
Re: flex-users mailing list (starting over)
Posted by Jeffry Houser <je...@dot-com-it.com>.
On 1/13/2012 2:30 PM, Douglas Arthur wrote:
>
> Finally, in the previous thread, there were enough volunteers (unless they want to withdraw now?). In addition, is there anyone else willing to volunteer?
>
> 3. Jeffry Houser [6]
>
> [6] http://markmail.org/message/c2hd6qna244tftzr
I'm still on board, and agree with your reasons why the list should be
created sooner than later.
--
Jeffry Houser
Technical Entrepreneur
203-379-0773
--
http://www.flextras.com?c=104
UI Flex Components: Tested! Supported! Ready!
--
http://www.theflexshow.com
http://www.jeffryhouser.com
http://www.asktheflexpert.com
--
Part of the DotComIt Brain Trust
RE: flex-users mailing list (starting over)
Posted by Douglas Arthur <da...@vmware.com>.
> From: Alex Harui [mailto:aharui@adobe.com]
> So Doug should really start a VOTE thread?
I don't think a VOTE thread is needed for this, per Bertrand's comments. But I'll go ahead and wait for his clarification.
- Doug
RE: flex-users mailing list (starting over)
Posted by Douglas Arthur <da...@vmware.com>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brent Arnold [mailto:brent@brentarnold.com]
> There's a typo in the subscribe mailto: link for the flex-users mailing list found
> on this page: http://incubator.apache.org/flex/mailing-lists.html
Thanks, I see that Mike fixed it already.
Re: flex-users mailing list (starting over)
Posted by Michael Schmalle <mi...@teotigraphix.com>.
Quoting Brent Arnold <br...@brentarnold.com>:
> There's a typo in the subscribe mailto: link for the flex-users
> mailing list found on this page:
> http://incubator.apache.org/flex/mailing-lists.html
>
> It wants to email: flex-users-subscribe@incuabator.apache.org which
> fails (there's an extra 'a' in incubator).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Brent
>
I fixed this spelling error.
Mike
Re: flex-users mailing list (starting over)
Posted by Brent Arnold <br...@brentarnold.com>.
There's a typo in the subscribe mailto: link for the flex-users mailing
list found on this page: http://incubator.apache.org/flex/mailing-lists.html
It wants to email: flex-users-subscribe@incuabator.apache.org which
fails (there's an extra 'a' in incubator).
Thanks,
Brent
Re: flex-users mailing list (starting over)
Posted by Doug Arthur <do...@gmail.com>.
Thanks!
On Jan 17, 2012 10:25 AM, "Bertrand Delacretaz" <bd...@apache.org>
wrote:
>
> Hi Doug,
>
> On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 5:53 PM, Doug Arthur <do...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > ...When I use the Apache CMS bookmark method on [1], I navigate through
> > site-author > projects > flex.xml which brings me to this [2]. When I
> > commit, I get this error [3]...
>
> Ah ok sorry, I didn't realize you were editing [1] and not our project
> website - that's not managed by the Apache CMS yet, that site is
> generated from
> https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/public/trunk, using an
> older and more complicated mechanism.
>
> I've added the users mailing list there, should be displayed at
> http://incubator.apache.org/projects/flex.html once the live website
> syncs.
>
> -Bertrand
>
> > [1] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/flex.html
> > [2]
https://cms.apache.org/incubator/wc/commit/dougarthur-1d6dVB/trunk/site-author/projects/flex.xml
Re: flex-users mailing list (starting over)
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi Doug,
On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 5:53 PM, Doug Arthur <do...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...When I use the Apache CMS bookmark method on [1], I navigate through
> site-author > projects > flex.xml which brings me to this [2]. When I
> commit, I get this error [3]...
Ah ok sorry, I didn't realize you were editing [1] and not our project
website - that's not managed by the Apache CMS yet, that site is
generated from
https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/public/trunk, using an
older and more complicated mechanism.
I've added the users mailing list there, should be displayed at
http://incubator.apache.org/projects/flex.html once the live website
syncs.
-Bertrand
> [1] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/flex.html
> [2] https://cms.apache.org/incubator/wc/commit/dougarthur-1d6dVB/trunk/site-author/projects/flex.xml
Re: flex-users mailing list (starting over)
Posted by Doug Arthur <do...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 9:47 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
<bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> What do you mean by permission denied? You should have write access to
> the whole flex svn tree.
>
> -Bertrand
Bertrand,
When I use the Apache CMS bookmark method on [1], I navigate through
site-author > projects > flex.xml which brings me to this [2]. When I
commit, I get this error [3]
The current status listed on flex.xml is 'M', but I cannot commit it.
[1] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/flex.html
[2] https://cms.apache.org/incubator/wc/commit/dougarthur-1d6dVB/trunk/site-author/projects/flex.xml
[3] URL access forbidden for unknown reason: Commit failed (details
follow):: access to
'/repos/asf/!svn/act/7f260d6f-2b41-e111-876a-001d0968836a' forbidden
at /usr/local/cms/webgui/lib/ASF/CMS/WC/Commit.pm line 59
- Doug
Re: flex-users mailing list (starting over)
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi Doug,
On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 5:45 PM, Doug Arthur <do...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...I was able to update the mailing-list.html for our incubation page,
> but I also tried to update the projects/flex.xml to reflect the new
> mailing list on the projects site, but I don't have access to that
> (got a permission denied error). Could you add the list there so it
> appears on the site [1]?...
What do you mean by permission denied? You should have write access to
the whole flex svn tree.
-Bertrand
Re: flex-users mailing list (starting over)
Posted by Doug Arthur <do...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 8:48 AM, Doug Arthur <do...@apache.org> wrote:
> This list is ready. I'll post it on the Mailing List page shortly.
> - Doug
Bertrand,
I was able to update the mailing-list.html for our incubation page,
but I also tried to update the projects/flex.xml to reflect the new
mailing list on the projects site, but I don't have access to that
(got a permission denied error). Could you add the list there so it
appears on the site [1]?
[1] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/flex.html
Thanks!
Re: flex-users mailing list (starting over)
Posted by Doug Arthur <do...@apache.org>.
On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 1:10 PM, Douglas Arthur <da...@vmware.com> wrote:
>> From: Douglas Arthur [mailto:darthur@vmware.com]
>>
> More than 24 hours have passed with no further discussions. I have created https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4333 for the list.
> - Doug
This list is ready. I'll post it on the Mailing List page shortly.
- Doug
RE: flex-users mailing list (starting over)
Posted by Douglas Arthur <da...@vmware.com>.
> From: Douglas Arthur [mailto:darthur@vmware.com]
>
> I'll go ahead and give it 24 hours, just to give some time to allow others to
> respond if they so desire.
> - Doug
More than 24 hours have passed with no further discussions. I have created https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4333 for the list.
- Doug
RE: flex-users mailing list (starting over)
Posted by Douglas Arthur <da...@vmware.com>.
> From: Bertrand Delacretaz [mailto:bdelacretaz@apache.org]
> No, that's not what I mean - the goal is to get consensus, if that works
> without a formal vote (and I think it does considering recent discussions,
> maybe just wait a bit to see if that's confirmed here) just go ahead.
I'll go ahead and give it 24 hours, just to give some time to allow others to respond if they so desire.
- Doug
Re: flex-users mailing list (starting over)
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 9:16 PM, Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com> wrote:
> On 1/13/12 12:13 PM, "Bertrand Delacretaz" <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> [1] Note that even if someone asked for a PPMC vote to create the
>> list, that would be a majority vote, so -1s wouldn't be vetoes. Only
>> code changes can be stopped by a single motivated veto, in other
>> decisions a -1 is just one person voting no
> So Doug should really start a VOTE thread?
No, that's not what I mean - the goal is to get consensus, if that
works without a formal vote (and I think it does considering recent
discussions, maybe just wait a bit to see if that's confirmed here)
just go ahead.
Off the top of my head, the only things where a vote is absolutely
required at the ASF are releases and electing committers and (P)PMC
members - I might be forgetting something, but in general once there's
consensus there's no need to over-vote ;-)
-Bertrand
Re: flex-users mailing list (starting over)
Posted by Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com>.
On 1/13/12 12:13 PM, "Bertrand Delacretaz" <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> [1] Note that even if someone asked for a PPMC vote to create the
> list, that would be a majority vote, so -1s wouldn't be vetoes. Only
> code changes can be stopped by a single motivated veto, in other
> decisions a -1 is just one person voting no
So Doug should really start a VOTE thread?
--
Alex Harui
Flex SDK Team
Adobe Systems, Inc.
http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
Re: flex-users mailing list (starting over)
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 8:30 PM, Douglas Arthur <da...@vmware.com> wrote:
> ...Bertrand, if you disagree after all the emails being thrown around yesterday, I'll let this rest. So please chime in here if you can....
As I said I'm totally fine with creating the flex-users list, and
considering that there are 3 volunteer moderators from the PPMC,
including one mentor:
> 1. Douglas Arthur
> 2. Anne Kathrine Petterøe [5]
> 3. Jeffry Houser [6]...
You have my ok for creating it. And even if you didn't, I'm just one
out of four mentors, and one out of N PPMC members [1].
To get the list you'll need to create an issue like
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4260, indicating the
moderator's Apache IDs and the address that they want to use to
receive moderation requests.
I also usually inform markmail.org via
http://markmail.org/docs/feedback.xqy when a new list is created, not
sure if they get automatic notifications. And of course add the list
to http://incubator.apache.org/flex/mailing-lists.html
Thanks for driving this!
-Bertrand
[1] Note that even if someone asked for a PPMC vote to create the
list, that would be a majority vote, so -1s wouldn't be vetoes. Only
code changes can be stopped by a single motivated veto, in other
decisions a -1 is just one person voting no
(http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html).
Re: flex-users mailing list (starting over)
Posted by Peter Elst <pe...@gmail.com>.
I originally gave it a -1, still don't really think we need the user
mailing list now and a note on the website would be enough.
That said if people feel strongly about wanting it now don't want to be an
obstacle for that happening. I'd ask to try and direct people to other
resources for Adobe Flex support until there is an Apache Flex release so
there is no confusion.
- Peter
RE: flex-users mailing list (starting over)
Posted by Michael Schmalle <mi...@teotigraphix.com>.
Quoting Douglas Arthur <da...@vmware.com>:
>> From: Alex Harui [mailto:aharui@adobe.com]
>>
>> Did anyone respond with a -1 on creating the list now? I know
>> Peter Elst and
>> I thought it was too early, but that's not an actual objection or attempt to
>> veto on my part.
>
> There were several oppositions, but it was mixed with the
> conversation about the coding standards, therefore I started this
> thread after the storm has calmed, and would like to determine the
> position on doing so now or later.
>
> - Doug
>
Hi Doug,
I think after yesterdays storm, the issue of it being too early is
really very minute compared to the actual time it might really save
doing it now. By the time it "would" be necessary, these volunteers we
have right now would probably want to spend there time committing code
and moderating an under control list. :)
Regardless of the outcome, since there are people willing to moderate,
I'm with the other that say they have no objection.
Mike
RE: flex-users mailing list (starting over)
Posted by Douglas Arthur <da...@vmware.com>.
> From: Alex Harui [mailto:aharui@adobe.com]
>
> Did anyone respond with a -1 on creating the list now? I know Peter Elst and
> I thought it was too early, but that's not an actual objection or attempt to
> veto on my part.
There were several oppositions, but it was mixed with the conversation about the coding standards, therefore I started this thread after the storm has calmed, and would like to determine the position on doing so now or later.
- Doug
Re: flex-users mailing list (starting over)
Posted by Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com>.
On 1/13/12 11:30 AM, "Douglas Arthur" <da...@vmware.com> wrote:
> There are a few strong reasons I feel this list should be created now. I will
> list them out here.
Did anyone respond with a -1 on creating the list now? I know Peter Elst
and I thought it was too early, but that's not an actual objection or
attempt to veto on my part.
--
Alex Harui
Flex SDK Team
Adobe Systems, Inc.
http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui