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Posted to dev@lenya.apache.org by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.org> on 2003/07/12 12:12:36 UTC
[RT] holy repository grail
Dear devs
I often stumble over the discussion what repository shall we use and
many fights emerge out of this.
I know there are data abstraction layers, or at least attempts to
provide them, but they are all far from perfect.
Beside what exists, I know what I want:
1) The Simplicity of a filesystem
2) Relational DB features, such as for instance transactions and SQL
3) XML DB features, such as for instance XPath queries
4) The features of an object oriented repository such as for instance Zope
5) Meta data
6) Versioning
7) Network access (e.g. WebDAV)
8) Anything else? ;-)
ok, I might be a bit naive to look for such a holy grail (as Gregor
called it), but WTF.
I see two possibilities to find a solution:
1) Either build (or rather to wait for) a repository with all these
features (contradictions included) as for instance Reiser
or Micrososft are doing
2) Glueing something together, which might be ugly on the backside, but
could be hidden very nicely
(I have made some very positive experience lately re glueing CVS and
HSQL-DB)
Since I am probably ignorant with regard to existing approaches and
opinions, I am looking forward
to all responses and suggestions. I am happy to learn :-)
Thanks
Michael
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Re: [RT] holy repository grail
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@apache.org>.
another very interesting link (from the Cocoon mailing list. maybe we
should merge the threads):
http://www.haifa.il.ibm.com/projects/storage/xmlfs/
Thanks
Michael
Michael Wechner wrote:
> Dear devs
>
> I often stumble over the discussion what repository shall we use and
> many fights emerge out of this.
>
> I know there are data abstraction layers, or at least attempts to
> provide them, but they are all far from perfect.
>
> Beside what exists, I know what I want:
>
> 1) The Simplicity of a filesystem
> 2) Relational DB features, such as for instance transactions and SQL
> 3) XML DB features, such as for instance XPath queries
> 4) The features of an object oriented repository such as for instance
> Zope
> 5) Meta data
> 6) Versioning
> 7) Network access (e.g. WebDAV)
> 8) Anything else? ;-)
>
> ok, I might be a bit naive to look for such a holy grail (as Gregor
> called it), but WTF.
>
> I see two possibilities to find a solution:
>
> 1) Either build (or rather to wait for) a repository with all these
> features (contradictions included) as for instance Reiser
> or Micrososft are doing
>
> 2) Glueing something together, which might be ugly on the backside,
> but could be hidden very nicely
> (I have made some very positive experience lately re glueing CVS and
> HSQL-DB)
>
> Since I am probably ignorant with regard to existing approaches and
> opinions, I am looking forward
> to all responses and suggestions. I am happy to learn :-)
>
> Thanks
>
> Michael
>
>
>
>
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>
>
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Re: [RT] holy repository grail
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Robert Koberg wrote, On 15/07/2003 2.08:
> Hi,
>
> I was going to mention Berkeley XML DB, but the license is less (more?) than
> Apache seems to embrace.
At Cocoon we use http://xml.apache.org/xindice/ when we need an xml DB.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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RE: [RT] holy repository grail
Posted by Robert Koberg <ro...@koberg.com>.
Hi,
I was going to mention Berkeley XML DB, but the license is less (more?) than
Apache seems to embrace.
It was ridiculously easy for me to transition from file system based storage
to the native XML DB. Just point the URIResolver to the DB(s) instead of the
content folder(s). Setup your indexes like you do for Lucene and away you
go. (However, it is not being used in a released version of our product)
It would be great if more java folk got involved over there. Java seems to
be an after-thought, currently.
---
I believe this has been discussed before, but what about Subversion? It
seems to have everything in Michael's list - though it doesn't seem like
they will ever ship v1 (and java is an after-thought there too).
Hoping you don't come across the killer rabbits and do find the grail :)
-Rob
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Wechner [mailto:michi@apache.org]
> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 4:19 PM
> To: Lenya Developers List
>
>
> btw, here's an interesting "entry" from Paul Everitt:
>
> http://www.zopezen.org/Members/paul/News_Item.2003-06-13.3130/view
>
> Thanks
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Michael Wechner wrote, On 12/07/2003 12.12:
> >
> >> Dear devs
> >>
> >> I often stumble over the discussion what repository shall we use and
> >> many fights emerge out of this.
> >>
> >> I know there are data abstraction layers, or at least attempts to
> >> provide them, but they are all far from perfect.
> >>
> >> Beside what exists, I know what I want:
> >>
> >> 1) The Simplicity of a filesystem
> >> 2) Relational DB features, such as for instance transactions and SQL
> >> 3) XML DB features, such as for instance XPath queries
> >> 4) The features of an object oriented repository such as for instance
> >> Zope
> >> 5) Meta data
> >> 6) Versioning
> >> 7) Network access (e.g. WebDAV)
> >> 8) Anything else? ;-)
> >
> >
> > Well, Apache Jakarta Slide should provide most of this:
> > http://jakarta.apache.org/slide/architecture.html
> >
> > 1 - yes
> > 2 - yes
> > 3 - should be in the JSR probably
> > 4 - ?
> > 5 - yes
> > 6 - yes
> > 7 - yes
> > 8 - yes ;-)
> >
>
>
>
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Re: [RT] holy repository grail
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@apache.org>.
btw, here's an interesting "entry" from Paul Everitt:
http://www.zopezen.org/Members/paul/News_Item.2003-06-13.3130/view
Thanks
Michael
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
>
> Michael Wechner wrote, On 12/07/2003 12.12:
>
>> Dear devs
>>
>> I often stumble over the discussion what repository shall we use and
>> many fights emerge out of this.
>>
>> I know there are data abstraction layers, or at least attempts to
>> provide them, but they are all far from perfect.
>>
>> Beside what exists, I know what I want:
>>
>> 1) The Simplicity of a filesystem
>> 2) Relational DB features, such as for instance transactions and SQL
>> 3) XML DB features, such as for instance XPath queries
>> 4) The features of an object oriented repository such as for instance
>> Zope
>> 5) Meta data
>> 6) Versioning
>> 7) Network access (e.g. WebDAV)
>> 8) Anything else? ;-)
>
>
> Well, Apache Jakarta Slide should provide most of this:
> http://jakarta.apache.org/slide/architecture.html
>
> 1 - yes
> 2 - yes
> 3 - should be in the JSR probably
> 4 - ?
> 5 - yes
> 6 - yes
> 7 - yes
> 8 - yes ;-)
>
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Re: [RT] holy repository grail
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Michael Wechner wrote, On 15/07/2003 1.17:
> Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
...
>>
>> Well, Apache Jakarta Slide should provide most of this:
>> http://jakarta.apache.org/slide/architecture.html
>
> right, but as I understand it not as a whole, but rather certain
> features per repository/store.
> I would like all these features as a whole, so I guess it's more similar
> to certian existing virtual filesystems
> or to a future version of Reiser FS.
>
> Or do I misunderstand Slide.?
I never used it myself, but from what I read on the site, it should
provide all those features.
Why not subscribe there and ask the question there? They surely know
more on this than me and you together ;-)
>> 1 - yes
>> 2 - yes
>> 3 - should be in the JSR probably
>
> you mean JSR-170?
Yes. Slide should be the RI.
>> 4 - ?
>
> AFAIK, ZODB allows one to treat a document as an object without adding
> another layer in between,
> which means you can easily add functionality to your data, such as for
> instance a date conversion.
> But I don't know Zope well enough, so just let me know when I totally
> misunderstood it.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: [RT] holy repository grail
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@apache.org>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
>
> Michael Wechner wrote, On 12/07/2003 12.12:
>
>> Dear devs
>>
>> I often stumble over the discussion what repository shall we use and
>> many fights emerge out of this.
>>
>> I know there are data abstraction layers, or at least attempts to
>> provide them, but they are all far from perfect.
>>
>> Beside what exists, I know what I want:
>>
>> 1) The Simplicity of a filesystem
>> 2) Relational DB features, such as for instance transactions and SQL
>> 3) XML DB features, such as for instance XPath queries
>> 4) The features of an object oriented repository such as for instance
>> Zope
>> 5) Meta data
>> 6) Versioning
>> 7) Network access (e.g. WebDAV)
>> 8) Anything else? ;-)
>
>
> Well, Apache Jakarta Slide should provide most of this:
> http://jakarta.apache.org/slide/architecture.html
right, but as I understand it not as a whole, but rather certain
features per repository/store.
I would like all these features as a whole, so I guess it's more similar
to certian existing virtual filesystems
or to a future version of Reiser FS.
Or do I misunderstand Slide.?
>
>
> 1 - yes
> 2 - yes
> 3 - should be in the JSR probably
you mean JSR-170?
>
> 4 - ?
AFAIK, ZODB allows one to treat a document as an object without adding
another layer in between,
which means you can easily add functionality to your data, such as for
instance a date conversion.
But I don't know Zope well enough, so just let me know when I totally
misunderstood it.
Thanks
Michael
>
> 5 - yes
> 6 - yes
> 7 - yes
> 8 - yes ;-)
>
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Re: [RT] holy repository grail
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Michael Wechner wrote, On 12/07/2003 12.12:
> Dear devs
>
> I often stumble over the discussion what repository shall we use and
> many fights emerge out of this.
>
> I know there are data abstraction layers, or at least attempts to
> provide them, but they are all far from perfect.
>
> Beside what exists, I know what I want:
>
> 1) The Simplicity of a filesystem
> 2) Relational DB features, such as for instance transactions and SQL
> 3) XML DB features, such as for instance XPath queries
> 4) The features of an object oriented repository such as for instance Zope
> 5) Meta data
> 6) Versioning
> 7) Network access (e.g. WebDAV)
> 8) Anything else? ;-)
Well, Apache Jakarta Slide should provide most of this:
http://jakarta.apache.org/slide/architecture.html
1 - yes
2 - yes
3 - should be in the JSR probably
4 - ?
5 - yes
6 - yes
7 - yes
8 - yes ;-)
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: [RT] holy repository grail
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.org>.
seems like Stefano also discovered the ReiserFS ;-)
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-dev&m=105829424302544&w=2
Michael
Michael Wechner wrote:
> Dear devs
>
> I often stumble over the discussion what repository shall we use and
> many fights emerge out of this.
>
> I know there are data abstraction layers, or at least attempts to
> provide them, but they are all far from perfect.
>
> Beside what exists, I know what I want:
>
> 1) The Simplicity of a filesystem
> 2) Relational DB features, such as for instance transactions and SQL
> 3) XML DB features, such as for instance XPath queries
> 4) The features of an object oriented repository such as for instance
> Zope
> 5) Meta data
> 6) Versioning
> 7) Network access (e.g. WebDAV)
> 8) Anything else? ;-)
>
> ok, I might be a bit naive to look for such a holy grail (as Gregor
> called it), but WTF.
>
> I see two possibilities to find a solution:
>
> 1) Either build (or rather to wait for) a repository with all these
> features (contradictions included) as for instance Reiser
> or Micrososft are doing
>
> 2) Glueing something together, which might be ugly on the backside,
> but could be hidden very nicely
> (I have made some very positive experience lately re glueing CVS and
> HSQL-DB)
>
> Since I am probably ignorant with regard to existing approaches and
> opinions, I am looking forward
> to all responses and suggestions. I am happy to learn :-)
>
> Thanks
>
> Michael
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: lenya-dev-unsubscribe@cocoon.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: lenya-dev-help@cocoon.apache.org
>
>
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Re: [RT] holy repository grail
Posted by Alex McLintock <al...@OWAL.co.uk>.
For the record here are my comments.
At 11:12 12/07/03, Michael Wechner wrote:
>1) The Simplicity of a filesystem
There is nothing like dropping a file on disk and having it appear on your
site.
>2) Relational DB features, such as for instance transactions and SQL
Well this is necessary for all sorts of things. An awful lot of content is
not "page" based, but perhaps record based and I think it would be a
mistake to totally ignore that.
>3) XML DB features, such as for instance XPath queries
Yep - I have tried out XIndice with Cocoon (XIndice is Apache's XML DB for
those not familiar)
but gave up - partly because of the lack of update ability when I tried it.
>4) The features of an object oriented repository such as for instance Zope
Less interested.
>5) Meta data
Er yes. This is something I am very very interested in - I even developed
my own crude
metadata system for book reviews....
http://news.diversebooks.com/metadata/
http://news.diversebooks.com/test/listmetadata.pl
>6) Versioning
Um - well, we don't really need much more than "go back to an earlier
version".
Very few people need full blown CVS style systems.
>7) Network access (e.g. WebDAV)
I still envisage users editing documents "off-line" eg with OpenOffice and
then "uploading" to the
draft site.
>Since I am probably ignorant with regard to existing approaches and
>opinions, I am looking forward
>to all responses and suggestions. I am happy to learn :-)
My suggested priority is documentation, documentation and more documentation.
I think that with better and more stable examples we could get more people
using and developing Lenya
and *then* look at new features.
Thanks again folks - I know that I haven't contributed any real source code
yet - keep up the good work.
Alex
Available for java/perl/C++/web development in London, UK or nearby.
Apache FOP, Cocoon, Turbine, Struts,XSL:FO, XML, Tomcat, JSP
http://www.OWAL.co.uk/
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