[OT] Re: Struts and .NET?

[Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>]

On 6/30/05, Rafael Taboada <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi folks I've been reading all mails about VS.NET <http://VS.NET>.
>  I have a question. Is it true that software in ASP.NET <http://ASP.NET> is
> faster than in Struts???.. HOw true is this opinion?
>  I heard about a tool that it can convert a ASP.NET <http://ASP.NET> soft in
> a .war so it can be runned in Tomcat... Is it true? what tool is it?
>  Thanks for ur xperiencie sharing.

I haven't heard about the tool for converting an application. Though,
if you wanted to run a ASP.NET application on a Linux box, the open
source Mono platform does that out of the box.

In terms of processing speed, it's really very, very hard to come up
with relevant benchmarks. Benchmarks are like bikinis or speedos; they
seem to reveal a lot, but all the best bits are covered up.

If anyone is truly concerned with processing speed, the only way to
tell for sure is to code a representative part of your application
with each choice, and then compare the two, head to head, on your own
hardware on your own network. If someone doesn't care enough to do
this, then they really don't care, and you can just flip a coin. It's
usually not a difference that makes a difference anyway.

In terms of development speed, C# and Java are very much alike, and
the core ASP.NET/ADO libraries are very much like the J2SE
equivalents. ASP.NET comes bundled with some components that make use
of a built-in request-processing cycle, not unllike Struts, but all
the usual suspects, like Request and Session, are there too.

A great number of our favorite Java libraries are an easy port to C#,
and have found a welcome home with C# developers. Apache Logging is a
run-away favorite right now, along with NAnt. Other libraries like
Lucene.NET, iBATIS.NET, and Spring.NET are also gaining acceptance.

In my own work, I use the Resharper "IDEA" plugin, the Anhk Subversion
plugin, and MySQL for the database, along with iBATIS.NET and
Spring.NET. I really don't feel like I've changed environments at all
:)

Most ASP.NET teams also use a visual editor, like Visual Studio, to
design the pages. Visual editors, regardless of what platform you use,
tend to be a faster way to *create* pages, but a slower way to
*maintain* pages.

But, if you are in a fixed-cost, waterfall-design environment,
shipping the pages quickly can be the primary concern. If client wants
to make changes later, they can update the design docs and pay for a
new page. This approach does work for many people (though not so much
for me).

There is a *huge* difference in programming styles between ASP.NET and
Java teams. The most obvious difference is the attitude toward stored
procedures. Most Java developers only use stored procedures if they
must. Most .NET developers only use stored procedures :)

One reason people tend to disagree over these things is that they want
to compare apples and oranges. If you are working in a fixed-cost,
waterfall design environment, then cranking out pages quickly with
stored procedures and a visual editor is the way to go. And, if client
changes the requirements, then it's back to the drawing board.

OTOH, if you are working on an open-ended, agile design environment,
and you want to be able to write code that you can test and refactor
over time, then a visual editor is not going to be much help.

While there will always been a difference between "waterfall" teams
and "agile" teams, eventually, I think the differences between the
platforms will become less and less stark. Which is a good thing. It
shouldn't be about the tools, it should be about the geeks using the
tools.

My own vision is to create a Struts framework that can be used on any
platform, Java, ASP.NET, Mono, PHP, Ruby, whatever. Of course, it's
not a far-fetched idea. Teams like Maverick and FuseBox already have
multiplatform frameworks. But, it is the sort of idea that worries the
marketing peeps, who thirst for product differentation :)

-Ted.

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Re: [OT] Re: Struts and .NET?

[Larry Meadors <la...@gmail.com>]

I could not agree more with Ted on this comparison. 

In my experience with asp.net, this is incredibly accurate. Cranking
out a page is pretty quick, but modifying it later can be a PITA.

Larry


On 7/7/05, Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/30/05, Rafael Taboada <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi folks I've been reading all mails about VS.NET <http://VS.NET>.
> >  I have a question. Is it true that software in ASP.NET <http://ASP.NET> is
> > faster than in Struts???.. HOw true is this opinion?
> >  I heard about a tool that it can convert a ASP.NET <http://ASP.NET> soft in
> > a .war so it can be runned in Tomcat... Is it true? what tool is it?
> >  Thanks for ur xperiencie sharing.
> 
> I haven't heard about the tool for converting an application. Though,
> if you wanted to run a ASP.NET application on a Linux box, the open
> source Mono platform does that out of the box.
> 
> In terms of processing speed, it's really very, very hard to come up
> with relevant benchmarks. Benchmarks are like bikinis or speedos; they
> seem to reveal a lot, but all the best bits are covered up.
> 
> If anyone is truly concerned with processing speed, the only way to
> tell for sure is to code a representative part of your application
> with each choice, and then compare the two, head to head, on your own
> hardware on your own network. If someone doesn't care enough to do
> this, then they really don't care, and you can just flip a coin. It's
> usually not a difference that makes a difference anyway.
> 
> In terms of development speed, C# and Java are very much alike, and
> the core ASP.NET/ADO libraries are very much like the J2SE
> equivalents. ASP.NET comes bundled with some components that make use
> of a built-in request-processing cycle, not unllike Struts, but all
> the usual suspects, like Request and Session, are there too.
> 
> A great number of our favorite Java libraries are an easy port to C#,
> and have found a welcome home with C# developers. Apache Logging is a
> run-away favorite right now, along with NAnt. Other libraries like
> Lucene.NET, iBATIS.NET, and Spring.NET are also gaining acceptance.
> 
> In my own work, I use the Resharper "IDEA" plugin, the Anhk Subversion
> plugin, and MySQL for the database, along with iBATIS.NET and
> Spring.NET. I really don't feel like I've changed environments at all
> :)
> 
> Most ASP.NET teams also use a visual editor, like Visual Studio, to
> design the pages. Visual editors, regardless of what platform you use,
> tend to be a faster way to *create* pages, but a slower way to
> *maintain* pages.
> 
> But, if you are in a fixed-cost, waterfall-design environment,
> shipping the pages quickly can be the primary concern. If client wants
> to make changes later, they can update the design docs and pay for a
> new page. This approach does work for many people (though not so much
> for me).
> 
> There is a *huge* difference in programming styles between ASP.NET and
> Java teams. The most obvious difference is the attitude toward stored
> procedures. Most Java developers only use stored procedures if they
> must. Most .NET developers only use stored procedures :)
> 
> One reason people tend to disagree over these things is that they want
> to compare apples and oranges. If you are working in a fixed-cost,
> waterfall design environment, then cranking out pages quickly with
> stored procedures and a visual editor is the way to go. And, if client
> changes the requirements, then it's back to the drawing board.
> 
> OTOH, if you are working on an open-ended, agile design environment,
> and you want to be able to write code that you can test and refactor
> over time, then a visual editor is not going to be much help.
> 
> While there will always been a difference between "waterfall" teams
> and "agile" teams, eventually, I think the differences between the
> platforms will become less and less stark. Which is a good thing. It
> shouldn't be about the tools, it should be about the geeks using the
> tools.
> 
> My own vision is to create a Struts framework that can be used on any
> platform, Java, ASP.NET, Mono, PHP, Ruby, whatever. Of course, it's
> not a far-fetched idea. Teams like Maverick and FuseBox already have
> multiplatform frameworks. But, it is the sort of idea that worries the
> marketing peeps, who thirst for product differentation :)
> 
> -Ted.
> 
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> 
>

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