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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> on 2013/07/13 19:57:33 UTC
Moderation of report reminders
Greets,
This report cycle, I audited the report reminders sent out by "Marvin"[1].
After waiting a couple of days for moderation to clear, I used a web browser
to check the dev list archives for each podling in the report cycle to see
whether the message had arrived. Reminders did not made it through for three
podlings: Celix, Tajo, and VXQuery.
For each of the three, I subscribed to the dev list to sidestep moderation,
sent a manual reminder, then promptly unsubscribed. The nudging worked: all
eventually filed reports.
Report reminders not getting moderated through has been a problem for years,
and it's time we solved it once and for all. Obviously, the labor-intensive
approach I took this month is not sustainable -- we need something automatic.
One possibility would be to set up a script to trawl the mbox archives
scanning for report reminders a couple days after they were sent out, then
mail general@incubator with a report enumerating which reminders didn't go
through. This may sound like a large project, but we would be able to
leverage a lot of code which Brane wrote for the vote scan:
https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/public/trunk/voter/
We might also gather other information during the same trawl and generate a
more rich report:
* Generate message counts for each podling mailing list, as a rough
barometer of activity.
* Scan for Mentor email addresses in recent messages, as a crude shepherding
aid.
* (Suggestions?)
A second possibility might be to consolidate `-allow` lists. (I'm not sure
whether this is technically feasible -- it came up yesterday on the infra
list, but the discussion was not conclusive. Perhaps one of the
Infrastructure people on this list could comment.)
The idea is that instead of having dedicated `-allow` lists for each podling
dev list, we would have one omnibus public-allow@incubator list. Once we
approve `Marvin <no...@apache.org>` by adding it to that list, then
reminders will always go through, even for new podlings.
Thoughts?
Marvin Humphrey
[1] https://svn.apache.org/repos/infra/infrastructure/trunk/tools/board_reminders
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Re: Moderation of report reminders
Posted by Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>.
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 1:13 PM, Doug Cutting <cu...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 10:13 AM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> So why not pre-allow all automated senders when creating the podling list?
>
> Why not pre-allow *@apache.org?
That sounds great.
The proposal to pre-allow no-reply@apache.org at list creation time also
sounds fine to me in that it solves the problem I'm working on. Nevertheless,
I understand Daniel Shahaf's objection.
To define the problem I'd like to solve more narrowly, I would like to see
fewer missed reports by podlings, but without the Chair or anyone else having
to perform manual audits.
All of the proposals so far attempt to address moderation failures in a timely
manner so that the podling still has enough time to send in their report
before the deadline. But maybe we should just let them fail if they haven't
got their act together with regards to moderation and then do what the Board
does when a TLP fails to report: ask them to report next month.
We'll still have missed reports anyway. Tez and Tashi were MIA this cycle.
Have we been following up? I don't recall seing messages, but maybe they've
been directed to lists I'm not subscribed to.
Marvin Humphrey
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Re: Moderation of report reminders
Posted by Doug Cutting <cu...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 10:13 AM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So why not pre-allow all automated senders when creating the podling list?
Why not pre-allow *@apache.org?
Doug
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Re: Moderation of report reminders
Posted by Daniel Shahaf <da...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 06:13:28PM +0100, sebb wrote:
> On 13 July 2013 19:28, Daniel Shahaf <da...@apache.org> wrote:
> > On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 10:57:33AM -0700, Marvin Humphrey wrote:
> >> A second possibility might be to consolidate `-allow` lists. (I'm not sure
> >> whether this is technically feasible -- it came up yesterday on the infra
> >> list, but the discussion was not conclusive. Perhaps one of the
> >> Infrastructure people on this list could comment.)
> >
> > The root problem is that people don't moderate things that need to be
> > moderated.
>
> Indeed, but ...
>
> If a human sends an e-mail to a mailing list and it bounces, they will
> hopefully realise and get the problem fixed.
>
> However, for automated senders, bounces don't usually do much.
BTW, even if you're right, you could have Marvin use
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Re: Moderation of report reminders
Posted by Daniel Shahaf <da...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 06:13:28PM +0100, sebb wrote:
> On 13 July 2013 19:28, Daniel Shahaf <da...@apache.org> wrote:
> > On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 10:57:33AM -0700, Marvin Humphrey wrote:
> >> A second possibility might be to consolidate `-allow` lists. (I'm not sure
> >> whether this is technically feasible -- it came up yesterday on the infra
> >> list, but the discussion was not conclusive. Perhaps one of the
> >> Infrastructure people on this list could comment.)
> >
> > The root problem is that people don't moderate things that need to be
> > moderated.
>
> Indeed, but ...
>
> If a human sends an e-mail to a mailing list and it bounces, they will
> hopefully realise and get the problem fixed.
>
I don't think it bounces unless a mod emails the -reject address.
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Re: Moderation of report reminders
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On 13 July 2013 19:28, Daniel Shahaf <da...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 10:57:33AM -0700, Marvin Humphrey wrote:
>> A second possibility might be to consolidate `-allow` lists. (I'm not sure
>> whether this is technically feasible -- it came up yesterday on the infra
>> list, but the discussion was not conclusive. Perhaps one of the
>> Infrastructure people on this list could comment.)
>
> The root problem is that people don't moderate things that need to be
> moderated.
Indeed, but ...
If a human sends an e-mail to a mailing list and it bounces, they will
hopefully realise and get the problem fixed.
However, for automated senders, bounces don't usually do much.
So why not pre-allow all automated senders when creating the podling list?
There's probably only Marvin (bot, not human) to allow in the case of podlings.
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Re: Moderation of report reminders
Posted by Daniel Shahaf <da...@apache.org>.
On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 10:57:33AM -0700, Marvin Humphrey wrote:
> A second possibility might be to consolidate `-allow` lists. (I'm not sure
> whether this is technically feasible -- it came up yesterday on the infra
> list, but the discussion was not conclusive. Perhaps one of the
> Infrastructure people on this list could comment.)
The root problem is that people don't moderate things that need to be
moderated. Whitelisting no-reply@apache.org just papers over the problem, it
will happen again when infra or comdev or board email the private@ list and
doesn't get moderated through.
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Re: Moderation of report reminders
Posted by Craig L Russell <cr...@oracle.com>.
On Jul 13, 2013, at 2:15 PM, sebb wrote:
> On 13 July 2013 18:57, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
>> Greets,
>>
>> This report cycle, I audited the report reminders sent out by "Marvin"[1].
>> After waiting a couple of days for moderation to clear, I used a web browser
>> to check the dev list archives for each podling in the report cycle to see
>> whether the message had arrived. Reminders did not made it through for three
>> podlings: Celix, Tajo, and VXQuery.
>>
>> For each of the three, I subscribed to the dev list to sidestep moderation,
>> sent a manual reminder, then promptly unsubscribed. The nudging worked: all
>> eventually filed reports.
>>
>> Report reminders not getting moderated through has been a problem for years,
>> and it's time we solved it once and for all. Obviously, the labor-intensive
>> approach I took this month is not sustainable -- we need something automatic.
>>
>> One possibility would be to set up a script to trawl the mbox archives
>> scanning for report reminders a couple days after they were sent out, then
>> mail general@incubator with a report enumerating which reminders didn't go
>> through. This may sound like a large project, but we would be able to
>> leverage a lot of code which Brane wrote for the vote scan:
>>
>> https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/public/trunk/voter/
>>
>> We might also gather other information during the same trawl and generate a
>> more rich report:
>>
>> * Generate message counts for each podling mailing list, as a rough
>> barometer of activity.
>> * Scan for Mentor email addresses in recent messages, as a crude shepherding
>> aid.
>> * (Suggestions?)
>>
>> A second possibility might be to consolidate `-allow` lists. (I'm not sure
>> whether this is technically feasible -- it came up yesterday on the infra
>> list, but the discussion was not conclusive. Perhaps one of the
>> Infrastructure people on this list could comment.)
>>
>> The idea is that instead of having dedicated `-allow` lists for each podling
>> dev list, we would have one omnibus public-allow@incubator list. Once we
>> approve `Marvin <no...@apache.org>` by adding it to that list, then
>> reminders will always go through, even for new podlings.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>
> Since every podling list needs to allow Marvin messages, I would have
> thought the obvious solution would be to allow Marvin as part of
> setting up the mailing list.
Occam's razor would agree. And so do I.
Craig
>
>> Marvin Humphrey
>>
>> [1] https://svn.apache.org/repos/infra/infrastructure/trunk/tools/board_reminders
>>
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>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>
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Craig L Russell
Architect, Oracle
http://db.apache.org/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
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Re: Moderation of report reminders
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On 13 July 2013 18:57, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
> Greets,
>
> This report cycle, I audited the report reminders sent out by "Marvin"[1].
> After waiting a couple of days for moderation to clear, I used a web browser
> to check the dev list archives for each podling in the report cycle to see
> whether the message had arrived. Reminders did not made it through for three
> podlings: Celix, Tajo, and VXQuery.
>
> For each of the three, I subscribed to the dev list to sidestep moderation,
> sent a manual reminder, then promptly unsubscribed. The nudging worked: all
> eventually filed reports.
>
> Report reminders not getting moderated through has been a problem for years,
> and it's time we solved it once and for all. Obviously, the labor-intensive
> approach I took this month is not sustainable -- we need something automatic.
>
> One possibility would be to set up a script to trawl the mbox archives
> scanning for report reminders a couple days after they were sent out, then
> mail general@incubator with a report enumerating which reminders didn't go
> through. This may sound like a large project, but we would be able to
> leverage a lot of code which Brane wrote for the vote scan:
>
> https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/public/trunk/voter/
>
> We might also gather other information during the same trawl and generate a
> more rich report:
>
> * Generate message counts for each podling mailing list, as a rough
> barometer of activity.
> * Scan for Mentor email addresses in recent messages, as a crude shepherding
> aid.
> * (Suggestions?)
>
> A second possibility might be to consolidate `-allow` lists. (I'm not sure
> whether this is technically feasible -- it came up yesterday on the infra
> list, but the discussion was not conclusive. Perhaps one of the
> Infrastructure people on this list could comment.)
>
> The idea is that instead of having dedicated `-allow` lists for each podling
> dev list, we would have one omnibus public-allow@incubator list. Once we
> approve `Marvin <no...@apache.org>` by adding it to that list, then
> reminders will always go through, even for new podlings.
>
> Thoughts?
Since every podling list needs to allow Marvin messages, I would have
thought the obvious solution would be to allow Marvin as part of
setting up the mailing list.
> Marvin Humphrey
>
> [1] https://svn.apache.org/repos/infra/infrastructure/trunk/tools/board_reminders
>
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Re: Moderation of report reminders
Posted by "Mattmann, Chris A (398J)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>.
Hey Marvin,
Thanks for the background -- my vote would be for the allow list approach.
Cheers,
Chris
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
Senior Computer Scientist
NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246
Email: chris.a.mattmann@nasa.gov
WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department
University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
-----Original Message-----
From: Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>
Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
Date: Saturday, July 13, 2013 10:57 AM
To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <ge...@incubator.apache.org>
Subject: Moderation of report reminders
>Greets,
>
>This report cycle, I audited the report reminders sent out by "Marvin"[1].
>After waiting a couple of days for moderation to clear, I used a web
>browser
>to check the dev list archives for each podling in the report cycle to see
>whether the message had arrived. Reminders did not made it through for
>three
>podlings: Celix, Tajo, and VXQuery.
>
>For each of the three, I subscribed to the dev list to sidestep
>moderation,
>sent a manual reminder, then promptly unsubscribed. The nudging worked:
>all
>eventually filed reports.
>
>Report reminders not getting moderated through has been a problem for
>years,
>and it's time we solved it once and for all. Obviously, the
>labor-intensive
>approach I took this month is not sustainable -- we need something
>automatic.
>
>One possibility would be to set up a script to trawl the mbox archives
>scanning for report reminders a couple days after they were sent out, then
>mail general@incubator with a report enumerating which reminders didn't go
>through. This may sound like a large project, but we would be able to
>leverage a lot of code which Brane wrote for the vote scan:
>
> https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/public/trunk/voter/
>
>We might also gather other information during the same trawl and generate
>a
>more rich report:
>
>* Generate message counts for each podling mailing list, as a rough
> barometer of activity.
>* Scan for Mentor email addresses in recent messages, as a crude
>shepherding
> aid.
>* (Suggestions?)
>
>A second possibility might be to consolidate `-allow` lists. (I'm not
>sure
>whether this is technically feasible -- it came up yesterday on the infra
>list, but the discussion was not conclusive. Perhaps one of the
>Infrastructure people on this list could comment.)
>
>The idea is that instead of having dedicated `-allow` lists for each
>podling
>dev list, we would have one omnibus public-allow@incubator list. Once we
>approve `Marvin <no...@apache.org>` by adding it to that list, then
>reminders will always go through, even for new podlings.
>
>Thoughts?
>
>Marvin Humphrey
>
>[1]
>https://svn.apache.org/repos/infra/infrastructure/trunk/tools/board_remind
>ers
>
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