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Posted to users@httpd.apache.org by Mohammed obaidan <bl...@gmail.com> on 2009/02/14 13:04:34 UTC
[users@httpd] GUI for configuring Apache httpd by editing httpd.conf
Hi,
I was searching the internet for a GUI tool for configuring the Apache httpd
server. I found two commercial tools but no open source ones. So I am going
to develop an open source software using java for configuring and maybe
administrating Apache httpd server. I am sending this mail to ask if there
is already such an open source software or not. If there is not and there is
somebody wants to help me on this project please visit the project
site<http://sourceforge.net/projects/apachifire/>
.
Thank you
Regards
[users@httpd] Re: GUI for configuring Apache httpd by editing httpd.conf
Posted by Mohammed obaidan <bl...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
I think I found what I am looking for. Here is a list of such software
1. Apache Console <http://apacheconsole.sourceforge.net/>
2. Netloony <http://netloony.sourceforge.net/>
3. Webmin <http://www.webmin.com/>(Already mentioned)
I got these software from this
webpage<http://www.debianhelp.co.uk/apacheweb.htm>
.
Regards
On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Mohammed obaidan <bl...@gmail.com>wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I was searching the internet for a GUI tool for configuring the Apache
> httpd server. I found two commercial tools but no open source ones. So I am
> going to develop an open source software using java for configuring and
> maybe administrating Apache httpd server. I am sending this mail to ask if
> there is already such an open source software or not. If there is not and
> there is somebody wants to help me on this project please visit the project
> site <http://sourceforge.net/projects/apachifire/>.
>
> Thank you
>
> Regards
>
Re: [users@httpd] GUI for configuring Apache httpd by editing
httpd.conf
Posted by Mohammed obaidan <bl...@gmail.com>.
Hi
I took a look at rapache and it seems that depends on Debain and will
not work on a different distro. SoI think I will test rapache first
and I will contact them if we can join the effort to make it platform
independent.
Regards
On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 1:50 PM, spacemarc <sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2009/2/14 Mohammed obaidan <bl...@gmail.com>:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I was searching the internet for a GUI tool for configuring the Apache httpd
>> server. I found two commercial tools but no open source ones. So I am going
>> to develop an open source software using java for configuring and maybe
>> administrating Apache httpd server. I am sending this mail to ask if there
>> is already such an open source software or not. If there is not and there is
>> somebody wants to help me on this project please visit the project site.
>>
>> Thank you
>>
>> Regards
>>
>
> try this one: https://launchpad.net/rapache
>
> --
> Scripts: http://www.spacemarc.it
>
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>
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Re: [users@httpd] GUI for configuring Apache httpd by editing
httpd.conf
Posted by spacemarc <sp...@gmail.com>.
2009/2/14 Mohammed obaidan <bl...@gmail.com>:
> Hi,
>
> I was searching the internet for a GUI tool for configuring the Apache httpd
> server. I found two commercial tools but no open source ones. So I am going
> to develop an open source software using java for configuring and maybe
> administrating Apache httpd server. I am sending this mail to ask if there
> is already such an open source software or not. If there is not and there is
> somebody wants to help me on this project please visit the project site.
>
> Thank you
>
> Regards
>
try this one: https://launchpad.net/rapache
--
Scripts: http://www.spacemarc.it
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Re: [users@httpd] Re: GUI for configuring Apache httpd by editing
httpd.conf
Posted by Mohammed obaidan <bl...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
I will look in that more thoroughly.
Thanks
On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 3:12 PM, Norman Peelman <np...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> Mohammed obaidan wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> OK I am really happy with the replies here and really appreciate your
>> opinions and ideas.
>>
>> Since Apache is used on more UNIX machines than Windows machines, it
>> seems that the audience here are Linux users and are willing to edit
>> the file by a text editor without any helping tool. However, in my
>> point of view, I think when a Windows user want a simple web server
>> will go for IIS because it has a GUI. This will affect Apache usage
>> share, though not that much but at least will have an impact.
>>
>> Regarding the GUI for the modules, I think that every module creator
>> can for example implement a simple plugin for my tool, as you said,
>> since it will needs lots of time and effort. Perhaps I will look at
>> the modules structure and how they work. If there is a possibilty to
>> make a standard plug in for modules that can be easily added to the
>> tool.
>>
>> Regarding installing a basic Apache on Windows, it is not an easy
>> task. It is easy iff you install it from a package like XAMPP.
>>
>> Regarding the users that will use this tool, I think the majority of
>> the users will be Windows users and users who are Windows users but
>> using Linux as a server.
>>
>> I think such a tool will contribute a lot to Apache since it will ease
>> it configuration. I know that most of you are thinking that this tool
>> for Windows users that are so lazy to do it by hand. However I think
>> it will help them and people who are switching to Linux like myself.
>>
>> One final note, I will read about the modules and their structure.
>> Maybe I need more understanding of them to progress. Also, I really
>> appreciate your comments and ideas about this issue and I hope if some
>> experts join our discussion.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>>
>>
> webmin has an installer for Windows. Windows is in the supported os list.
> You can contribute to webmin. Why not just help make the webmin apache
> module more robust. I use webmin when I feel like it, text editor when I
> don't. webmin has already done most of the work for you, no need to reinvent
> the wheel.
>
>
> --
> Norman Registered Linux user #461062 -Have you been to www.apache.orgyet?-
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> See <URL:http://httpd.apache.org/userslist.html> for more info.
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>
>
Re: [users@httpd] Re: GUI for configuring Apache httpd by editing
httpd.conf
Posted by Norman Peelman <np...@cfl.rr.com>.
Mohammed obaidan wrote:
> Hi,
>
> OK I am really happy with the replies here and really appreciate your
> opinions and ideas.
>
> Since Apache is used on more UNIX machines than Windows machines, it
> seems that the audience here are Linux users and are willing to edit
> the file by a text editor without any helping tool. However, in my
> point of view, I think when a Windows user want a simple web server
> will go for IIS because it has a GUI. This will affect Apache usage
> share, though not that much but at least will have an impact.
>
> Regarding the GUI for the modules, I think that every module creator
> can for example implement a simple plugin for my tool, as you said,
> since it will needs lots of time and effort. Perhaps I will look at
> the modules structure and how they work. If there is a possibilty to
> make a standard plug in for modules that can be easily added to the
> tool.
>
> Regarding installing a basic Apache on Windows, it is not an easy
> task. It is easy iff you install it from a package like XAMPP.
>
> Regarding the users that will use this tool, I think the majority of
> the users will be Windows users and users who are Windows users but
> using Linux as a server.
>
> I think such a tool will contribute a lot to Apache since it will ease
> it configuration. I know that most of you are thinking that this tool
> for Windows users that are so lazy to do it by hand. However I think
> it will help them and people who are switching to Linux like myself.
>
> One final note, I will read about the modules and their structure.
> Maybe I need more understanding of them to progress. Also, I really
> appreciate your comments and ideas about this issue and I hope if some
> experts join our discussion.
>
> Regards
>
>
webmin has an installer for Windows. Windows is in the supported os
list. You can contribute to webmin. Why not just help make the webmin
apache module more robust. I use webmin when I feel like it, text editor
when I don't. webmin has already done most of the work for you, no need
to reinvent the wheel.
--
Norman Registered Linux user #461062 -Have you been to www.apache.org yet?-
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Re: [users@httpd] Re: GUI for configuring Apache httpd by editing
httpd.conf
Posted by Mohammed obaidan <bl...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
Wow that is a very technical and helpful post.
I think the tool should be flexible Because Apache is flexible. Regarding
maintaining a web server with multiple configuration, I think the tool
should handle every configuration as a separate item. This will ease things.
Regarding that some control panels break from changing the configuration
file manually, I think the tool will not have such a problem. The tool can
give the user the option to ignore some directives.
One final note, I do not want to rush things now. I really want to at least
start the tool and let it handle some basic configuration and get feedback
from the community. at least we have a proof of concept rather than just a
hypothetical tool.
Regards
On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 8:55 AM, Sean Conner <sp...@conman.org> wrote:
> It was thus said that the Great Mohammed obaidan once stated:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Apache is not for web server admins. what about developers? What about
> home
> > servers? What about users that needs a certain web application on their
> > intranet? do they need to be web server admins to use Apache? certainly
> not.
>
> No. But most default Apache installations pretty much work out of the
> box. And most web developers tend to have to learn how to use .htaccess
> files if they want some control over their websites.
>
> > I think I need to clear some points here before this discussion goes on a
> > different direction.
> >
> > 1. This tool in its final form will do everything you can do with a text
> > editor to configure Apache. However it will not be a replacement for a
> the
> > text editor because the tool will handle Apache and the modules that
> comes
> > with it.
>
> How flexible will this tool be? I currently maintain my own webserver
> and
> have a particular setup of files:
>
> /etc/httpd/conf/httpd.conf
> /etc/httpd/conf.d/* (various conf files)
> /home/spc/web/sites/
> www.conman.org/
> site.conf (Apache conf stuff)
> htdocs/
> cgi-bin/
> boston.conman.org/
> site.conf (Apache conf stuff)
> htdocs/
> journal/
> secure.conman.org/
> site.conf (Apache conf stuff)
> htdocs/
> s-htdocs/
> cgi-bin/
> (and so on)
>
> Some of our servers have the following structure:
>
> /etc/httpd/
> conf/httpd.conf
> conf.d/*
> sites/###.conf
> /home/virtual/example.net/var/www/html/
>
> And yet some others have:
>
> /etc/httpd/
> conf/httpd.conf
> conf.d/*
> sites/*
> /home/user/public_html/
>
> Will I be able install your tool and have it just work? What about moving
> sites from server to server? Or will the tool "do its own thing?"
>
> Also, we use a couple of different control panels, each with their own
> interface to Apache. The major problem I have with these is that often
> times, I know how to fix a particular problem within Apache, by modifying
> the configuration files directly, but doing so breaks the control panel. I
> can fix it, but I can't, because the control panel limits what I can and
> can't do.
>
> For instance, most (at least, the ones we use) GUIs for Apache will ask
> something like:
>
> Server Name: [________________________]
> Server Aliases: [________________________]
>
> and generate a configuration like:
>
> <VirtualHost 10.10.10.10:80>
> ServerName www.example.net
> ServerAlias example.net
> ...
> </VirtualHost>
>
> Fine. It works. But for SEO [1] you *really* want something like:
>
> <VirtualHost 10.10.10.10:80>
> ServerName example.net
> Redirect permanent http://www.example.net/
> </VirtualHost>
>
> <VirtualHost 10.10.10.10:80>
> ServerName www.example.net
> ...
> </VirtualHost>
>
> And some of our customers (I work at a small webhosting company) wanted
> just exactly that.
>
> Can't do something *that simple* through the control panels we have. And
> when I "fixed" it by hand, it *broke* the control panel. I eventually had
> to set up a separate Apache *just to handle this type of redirect.*
>
> > 2. Do not worry about GUI complexities. These can be solved easily.
>
> I personally believe it's harder than you think, if only because of
> special cases like above (two ways to handle server aliases). Or the
> multiple ways of handling redirects (Redirect vs. mod_rewrite), or the use
> of .htaccess (I don't use .htaccess for my personal websites; we have to
> allow it for our customers) (oh, and that brings up another issue---about a
> year ago I merged all the .htaccess files for my sites into the main conf
> files---that's another thing you need to handle).
>
> I've also read that most people only use about 10% of the features of
> Microsoft Word, it's just that each person uses a different 10%.
>
> > 3. Apache is not for admins only. It is used by developers, home servers,
> > local intranets. You do not need to be a web server admin to use Apache.
> >
> > 4. I wanted to make this tool because I am a developer and have a home
> > server. I want to configure Apache to suit my needs without the need to
> hack
> > a text editor and read the documentation of a certain feature of Apache.
>
> And that's fine. But then you need to move the site from your
> development
> server to the deployment server ...
>
> > 5. This tool can be extended later to include useful tools. As I said
> before
> > the aim is a complete Apache admin tool the first step is a GUI for
> > httpd.conf.
> >
> > 6. I think I will start building the tool and at least let the community
> > test the tool and get a feedback whether this tool will be useful or not.
>
> For 90, 95% of all websites out there, a simple configuration is all you
> need. It's for the other 5-10% that things get complex quickly. I have a
> site that uses SSL client certificates for authentication and well ...
> that's a default part of Apache. A lot of my sites use Basic and Digest
> authentication (so, how do you handle "user accounts" in such a case?).
> Oh,
> and I forgot about the site that uses AddDescription. And another one
> that's a reverse proxy. And custom error documents.
>
> Wow, I do use a lot of Apache functionality.
>
> I only bring up all these points because I use Apache. A lot. In a lot
> of different configurations. And frankly, I can't image anything being
> "easier" to use than the Apache configuration file.
>
> One more example before I go---a project at work:
>
> <VirtualHost 10.10.10.10:80>
> ServerName project-mysql.example.com
> DocumentRoot /var/www/project/htdocs-mysql
> DirectoryIndex index.html index.php
> Alias /CSS/
> "/home/spc/source/project/htdocs/layout/CSS/"
> Alias /images/
> "/home/spc/source/project/htdocs/layout/images/"
> Alias / "/home/spc/source/project/htdocs/logic/"
>
> <Directory /var/www/project/htdocs-mysql>
> Options All
> AllowOverride None
> </Directory>
> </VirtualHost>
>
> <VirtualHost 10.10.10.10:80>
> ServerName project-postgresql.example.com
> DocumentRoot /var/www/project/htdocs-pg
> DirectoryIndex index.html index.php
> Alias /CSS/
> "/home/spc/source/project/htdocs/layout/CSS/"
> Alias /images/
> "/home/spc/source/project/htdocs/layout/images/"
> Alias / "/home/spc/source/project/htdocs/logic/"
>
> <Directory /var/www/project/htdocs-pg>
> Options All
> AllowOverride None
> </Directory>
> </VirtualHost>
>
> It's a PHP project. PHP files for both sites are in a central location
> (via
> the Alias directive), although I do have an actual DocumentRoot where site
> specific files live (where PHP can reference them via
> $_SERVER['DOCUMENT_ROOT']). I really would be interested in seeing a GUI
> handle such an Apache configuration.
>
> -spc (Then again, I'm probably not your target audience ... )
>
> [1] Search Engine Optimization
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> The official User-To-User support forum of the Apache HTTP Server Project.
> See <URL:http://httpd.apache.org/userslist.html> for more info.
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@httpd.apache.org
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> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@httpd.apache.org
>
>
Re: [users@httpd] Re: GUI for configuring Apache httpd by editing httpd.conf
Posted by Sean Conner <sp...@conman.org>.
It was thus said that the Great Mohammed obaidan once stated:
> Hi,
>
> Apache is not for web server admins. what about developers? What about home
> servers? What about users that needs a certain web application on their
> intranet? do they need to be web server admins to use Apache? certainly not.
No. But most default Apache installations pretty much work out of the
box. And most web developers tend to have to learn how to use .htaccess
files if they want some control over their websites.
> I think I need to clear some points here before this discussion goes on a
> different direction.
>
> 1. This tool in its final form will do everything you can do with a text
> editor to configure Apache. However it will not be a replacement for a the
> text editor because the tool will handle Apache and the modules that comes
> with it.
How flexible will this tool be? I currently maintain my own webserver and
have a particular setup of files:
/etc/httpd/conf/httpd.conf
/etc/httpd/conf.d/* (various conf files)
/home/spc/web/sites/
www.conman.org/
site.conf (Apache conf stuff)
htdocs/
cgi-bin/
boston.conman.org/
site.conf (Apache conf stuff)
htdocs/
journal/
secure.conman.org/
site.conf (Apache conf stuff)
htdocs/
s-htdocs/
cgi-bin/
(and so on)
Some of our servers have the following structure:
/etc/httpd/
conf/httpd.conf
conf.d/*
sites/###.conf
/home/virtual/example.net/var/www/html/
And yet some others have:
/etc/httpd/
conf/httpd.conf
conf.d/*
sites/*
/home/user/public_html/
Will I be able install your tool and have it just work? What about moving
sites from server to server? Or will the tool "do its own thing?"
Also, we use a couple of different control panels, each with their own
interface to Apache. The major problem I have with these is that often
times, I know how to fix a particular problem within Apache, by modifying
the configuration files directly, but doing so breaks the control panel. I
can fix it, but I can't, because the control panel limits what I can and
can't do.
For instance, most (at least, the ones we use) GUIs for Apache will ask
something like:
Server Name: [________________________]
Server Aliases: [________________________]
and generate a configuration like:
<VirtualHost 10.10.10.10:80>
ServerName www.example.net
ServerAlias example.net
...
</VirtualHost>
Fine. It works. But for SEO [1] you *really* want something like:
<VirtualHost 10.10.10.10:80>
ServerName example.net
Redirect permanent http://www.example.net/
</VirtualHost>
<VirtualHost 10.10.10.10:80>
ServerName www.example.net
...
</VirtualHost>
And some of our customers (I work at a small webhosting company) wanted
just exactly that.
Can't do something *that simple* through the control panels we have. And
when I "fixed" it by hand, it *broke* the control panel. I eventually had
to set up a separate Apache *just to handle this type of redirect.*
> 2. Do not worry about GUI complexities. These can be solved easily.
I personally believe it's harder than you think, if only because of
special cases like above (two ways to handle server aliases). Or the
multiple ways of handling redirects (Redirect vs. mod_rewrite), or the use
of .htaccess (I don't use .htaccess for my personal websites; we have to
allow it for our customers) (oh, and that brings up another issue---about a
year ago I merged all the .htaccess files for my sites into the main conf
files---that's another thing you need to handle).
I've also read that most people only use about 10% of the features of
Microsoft Word, it's just that each person uses a different 10%.
> 3. Apache is not for admins only. It is used by developers, home servers,
> local intranets. You do not need to be a web server admin to use Apache.
>
> 4. I wanted to make this tool because I am a developer and have a home
> server. I want to configure Apache to suit my needs without the need to hack
> a text editor and read the documentation of a certain feature of Apache.
And that's fine. But then you need to move the site from your development
server to the deployment server ...
> 5. This tool can be extended later to include useful tools. As I said before
> the aim is a complete Apache admin tool the first step is a GUI for
> httpd.conf.
>
> 6. I think I will start building the tool and at least let the community
> test the tool and get a feedback whether this tool will be useful or not.
For 90, 95% of all websites out there, a simple configuration is all you
need. It's for the other 5-10% that things get complex quickly. I have a
site that uses SSL client certificates for authentication and well ...
that's a default part of Apache. A lot of my sites use Basic and Digest
authentication (so, how do you handle "user accounts" in such a case?). Oh,
and I forgot about the site that uses AddDescription. And another one
that's a reverse proxy. And custom error documents.
Wow, I do use a lot of Apache functionality.
I only bring up all these points because I use Apache. A lot. In a lot
of different configurations. And frankly, I can't image anything being
"easier" to use than the Apache configuration file.
One more example before I go---a project at work:
<VirtualHost 10.10.10.10:80>
ServerName project-mysql.example.com
DocumentRoot /var/www/project/htdocs-mysql
DirectoryIndex index.html index.php
Alias /CSS/ "/home/spc/source/project/htdocs/layout/CSS/"
Alias /images/ "/home/spc/source/project/htdocs/layout/images/"
Alias / "/home/spc/source/project/htdocs/logic/"
<Directory /var/www/project/htdocs-mysql>
Options All
AllowOverride None
</Directory>
</VirtualHost>
<VirtualHost 10.10.10.10:80>
ServerName project-postgresql.example.com
DocumentRoot /var/www/project/htdocs-pg
DirectoryIndex index.html index.php
Alias /CSS/ "/home/spc/source/project/htdocs/layout/CSS/"
Alias /images/ "/home/spc/source/project/htdocs/layout/images/"
Alias / "/home/spc/source/project/htdocs/logic/"
<Directory /var/www/project/htdocs-pg>
Options All
AllowOverride None
</Directory>
</VirtualHost>
It's a PHP project. PHP files for both sites are in a central location (via
the Alias directive), although I do have an actual DocumentRoot where site
specific files live (where PHP can reference them via
$_SERVER['DOCUMENT_ROOT']). I really would be interested in seeing a GUI
handle such an Apache configuration.
-spc (Then again, I'm probably not your target audience ... )
[1] Search Engine Optimization
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Re: [users@httpd] Re: GUI for configuring Apache httpd by editing
httpd.conf
Posted by Tom Evans <te...@googlemail.com>.
On Tue, 2009-02-17 at 07:55 +0300, Mohammed obaidan wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Apache is not for web server admins. what about developers? What about
> home servers? What about users that needs a certain web application on
> their intranet? do they need to be web server admins to use Apache?
> certainly not.
>
> Most of the posts here suggests that people here are Apache admins and
> they think that such a tool is useless because they can use a text
> editor to configure Apache because they are Apache admins.How about if
> you are not an Apache admin? I do not think you are going to hack a
> text file for adding a virtual host or an alias without a certain tool
> that can display information about such directives and validate that
> for you.
>
Just an aside; I wasn't born as an apache admin. I didn't go on a course
that made me an apache admin. I wanted to install apache and make it
work, which means understanding one reasonabley large, extremely well
documented file, and then reading a bit of the manual.
I started doing that 8 years ago, and I still read the manual when I
need to change things. The problems I think you will encounter in
writing a tool to configure apache are
1) Lots of people will be very familiar with apache syntax, and won't be
with a gui tool.
2) Loss of flexibility; in a text editor, all options are available to
the insightful, but in a gui tool you only have available the options
that the author deems useful. This means if you ever do anything outside
of the tool, then you need to know exactly how apache configurations are
put together.
3) Loss of community; in a text editor making changes to stock is
straightforward and explainable - "I downloaded 2.2.11, did the default
install and added 'ServerAlias localhost.localdomain'." compared to "I
added an extra site to the server aliases tab". With the tool, only the
writer of the tool can advise the users, without having to grok entire
conf files.
4) Distro incompatability; apache can come in lots of different config
layouts. It would not be possible to predict all of them, especially as
many people (myself included!) roll our own layouts, as the task
requires.
5) Validating and parsing the config file; because of 4), you would need
to be able to parse and validate the apache configuration files. To do
this, you need to know whether a directive exists, and whether its value
is correct or not. The only way to find out if a directive exists is to
load all the specified modules from LoadModule lines, and find a
directive that matches. Having found the directive that matches, the
only way to check whether a directive value is correct is to call the
directives configuration callback with the supplied values.
Obviously, part 5 is tricky! The simplest way to avoid that is to write
your own parser, which only knows about the modules and directives that
you have told it about. Even then, you will need to take logic that
already exists and works (config parser) and rewrite it in a simpler,
less capable form. Even a 1st year CS grad would know that isn't a good
long term plan!
Writing your own parser (even if you used APRs config parsing routines
for parsing apache-style config files) will require knowledge of how
apache works. For instance, if I have the file /etc/apache.conf, which
contains these lines
ServerRoot /usr/local/apache22
Include "main.conf"
then your parser will need to work out to
read /usr/local/apache22/main.conf not /etc/main.conf.
If /etc/apache.conf just contained this:
Include "main.conf"
then you would need to do even more, you would need to see what default
directory was compiled into apache for the ServerRoot!
So, I think a lot of people do not warm to this idea because it is a lot
of work, wont work as effectively as a text editor + manual, will be
harder to maintain, and (especially on this list) will be much much
harder to support users using this tool.
Good luck scratching your itch!
Tom
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Re: [users@httpd] Re: GUI for configuring Apache httpd by editing httpd.conf
Posted by Octavian Rasnita <or...@gmail.com>.
From: "Mohammed obaidan" <bl...@gmail.com>
> Apache is not for web server admins. what about developers? What about home
> servers? What about users that needs a certain web application on their
> intranet? do they need to be web server admins to use Apache? certainly not.
I am not an Apache admin, but a developer that just needs Apache, or other web servers to serve the programs I make, so I am in the target audience.
> Most of the posts here suggests that people here are Apache admins and they
> think that such a tool is useless because they can use a text editor to
> configure Apache because they are Apache admins.How about if you are not an
> Apache admin? I do not think you are going to hack a text file for adding a
> virtual host or an alias without a certain tool that can display information
> about such directives and validate that for you.
Well, I always edit the httpd.conf with a text editor, and I even read some books for learning how to do this.
> 1. This tool in its final form will do everything you can do with a text
> editor to configure Apache. However it will not be a replacement for a the
> text editor because the tool will handle Apache and the modules that comes
> with it.
This means that it won't do everything an editor does. A developer usually doesn't need to run CGI scripts these days, but run the programs with fastcgi, or mod_perl, mod_php or other modules.
If this tool won't support the modules like mod_perl, mod_rewrite, mod_python, mod_php, and a few other helpful modules that can be used with Apache, it won't be very useful.
A developer that needs just the features which can be used with the default installation of Apache can do those settings with a few copy/paste operations... he won't need to learn too much to do those settings.
On the other hand, one that needs to do more complicated settings, might be helped by this tool if it would be able to handle them.
Octavian
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Re: [users@httpd] Re: GUI for configuring Apache httpd by editing
httpd.conf
Posted by Mohammed obaidan <bl...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
Apache is not for web server admins. what about developers? What about home
servers? What about users that needs a certain web application on their
intranet? do they need to be web server admins to use Apache? certainly not.
Most of the posts here suggests that people here are Apache admins and they
think that such a tool is useless because they can use a text editor to
configure Apache because they are Apache admins.How about if you are not an
Apache admin? I do not think you are going to hack a text file for adding a
virtual host or an alias without a certain tool that can display information
about such directives and validate that for you.
I think I need to clear some points here before this discussion goes on a
different direction.
1. This tool in its final form will do everything you can do with a text
editor to configure Apache. However it will not be a replacement for a the
text editor because the tool will handle Apache and the modules that comes
with it.
2. Do not worry about GUI complexities. These can be solved easily.
3. Apache is not for admins only. It is used by developers, home servers,
local intranets. You do not need to be a web server admin to use Apache.
4. I wanted to make this tool because I am a developer and have a home
server. I want to configure Apache to suit my needs without the need to hack
a text editor and read the documentation of a certain feature of Apache.
5. This tool can be extended later to include useful tools. As I said before
the aim is a complete Apache admin tool the first step is a GUI for
httpd.conf.
6. I think I will start building the tool and at least let the community
test the tool and get a feedback whether this tool will be useful or not.
Regards
On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 9:44 PM, Krist van Besien <krist.vanbesien@gmail.com
> wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 6:26 PM, Peter Schober
> <pe...@univie.ac.at> wrote:
>
> > It's certainly not for me. But other than stating the reasons why I
> > think this is not practical and helpful in the real world, why should
> > I try to convice others to /not/ write duch a thing? Because "some
> > things should not be easy"?
>
> Thinks should be easy. That is the point. Given the aim of the apache
> webserver, and its intended audience the current way of configuring
> apache is by far the easiest.
>
> Apache is a tool for webserver admins, not for average computer users.
> With apache if I need to explain to one of our operators how to deploy
> a change to all our webservers all I need to know is if said person
> has basic unix knowledge (which is the case, or we wouldn't let them
> near our servers) and all I need to provide in my workorder is "copy
> atached file to /etc/apache2/sites_available and then execute
> apache2ctl graceful.
> With a gui I either need to know if the target of my workorder is
> familiar whith the gui, and if I'm not sure I have no other option of
> writing a complete walk through, with screenshots. That I consider a
> waste of my time.
> So my preference for the command line and text files has nothing to do
> with elitism or nostalgia. It has everything to do with two things
> that are very important in a production environment: Simplicity and
> repeatability.
>
> Krist
>
>
> --
> krist.vanbesien@gmail.com
> krist@vanbesien.org
> Bremgarten b. Bern, Switzerland
> --
> A: It reverses the normal flow of conversation.
> Q: What's wrong with top-posting?
> A: Top-posting.
> Q: What's the biggest scourge on plain text email discussions?
>
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Re: [users@httpd] Re: GUI for configuring Apache httpd by editing httpd.conf
Posted by Octavian Râsnita <or...@gmail.com>.
I think that we should not discourage anyone that wants to create such a
tool.
It can be used by beginners that learn how to configure the server with a
GUI, then find how the httpd.conf is created, but this only if that tool can
do absolutely everything a text editor can do.
If that tool can't do absolutely everything, than it is an evil tool for the
beginners because it will make them think that what it can do is everything
Apache can do, or they won't care that there are possible more advanced
configurations, which is not good.
It is just like a kind of beeing pleased with what Ruby on Rails can do,
without reaching to know how more things Catalyst framework can.
Octavian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Krist van Besien" <kr...@gmail.com>
To: <us...@httpd.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: [users@httpd] Re: GUI for configuring Apache httpd by editing
httpd.conf
> On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 6:26 PM, Peter Schober
> <pe...@univie.ac.at> wrote:
>
>> It's certainly not for me. But other than stating the reasons why I
>> think this is not practical and helpful in the real world, why should
>> I try to convice others to /not/ write duch a thing? Because "some
>> things should not be easy"?
>
> Thinks should be easy. That is the point. Given the aim of the apache
> webserver, and its intended audience the current way of configuring
> apache is by far the easiest.
>
> Apache is a tool for webserver admins, not for average computer users.
> With apache if I need to explain to one of our operators how to deploy
> a change to all our webservers all I need to know is if said person
> has basic unix knowledge (which is the case, or we wouldn't let them
> near our servers) and all I need to provide in my workorder is "copy
> atached file to /etc/apache2/sites_available and then execute
> apache2ctl graceful.
> With a gui I either need to know if the target of my workorder is
> familiar whith the gui, and if I'm not sure I have no other option of
> writing a complete walk through, with screenshots. That I consider a
> waste of my time.
> So my preference for the command line and text files has nothing to do
> with elitism or nostalgia. It has everything to do with two things
> that are very important in a production environment: Simplicity and
> repeatability.
>
> Krist
>
>
> --
> krist.vanbesien@gmail.com
> krist@vanbesien.org
> Bremgarten b. Bern, Switzerland
> --
> A: It reverses the normal flow of conversation.
> Q: What's wrong with top-posting?
> A: Top-posting.
> Q: What's the biggest scourge on plain text email discussions?
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> See <URL:http://httpd.apache.org/userslist.html> for more info.
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Re: [users@httpd] Re: GUI for configuring Apache httpd by editing
httpd.conf
Posted by Krist van Besien <kr...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 6:26 PM, Peter Schober
<pe...@univie.ac.at> wrote:
> It's certainly not for me. But other than stating the reasons why I
> think this is not practical and helpful in the real world, why should
> I try to convice others to /not/ write duch a thing? Because "some
> things should not be easy"?
Thinks should be easy. That is the point. Given the aim of the apache
webserver, and its intended audience the current way of configuring
apache is by far the easiest.
Apache is a tool for webserver admins, not for average computer users.
With apache if I need to explain to one of our operators how to deploy
a change to all our webservers all I need to know is if said person
has basic unix knowledge (which is the case, or we wouldn't let them
near our servers) and all I need to provide in my workorder is "copy
atached file to /etc/apache2/sites_available and then execute
apache2ctl graceful.
With a gui I either need to know if the target of my workorder is
familiar whith the gui, and if I'm not sure I have no other option of
writing a complete walk through, with screenshots. That I consider a
waste of my time.
So my preference for the command line and text files has nothing to do
with elitism or nostalgia. It has everything to do with two things
that are very important in a production environment: Simplicity and
repeatability.
Krist
--
krist.vanbesien@gmail.com
krist@vanbesien.org
Bremgarten b. Bern, Switzerland
--
A: It reverses the normal flow of conversation.
Q: What's wrong with top-posting?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What's the biggest scourge on plain text email discussions?
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Re: [users@httpd] Re: GUI for configuring Apache httpd by editing
httpd.conf
Posted by André Warnier <aw...@ice-sa.com>.
Peter Schober wrote:
> * Glen Barber <gl...@gmail.com> [2009-02-16 18:10]:
>> On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 11:40 AM, John Hudak <jj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> DITTO!!!
>>> In the 'bad old days' of computing, everything was based on a text file. It
>>> forces one to really understand what is behind the changes. I for one do
>>> not subscribe to the 'dumbing down' of operating systems and certain
>>> application via lots of window forms.... If it were easy, any primate could
>>> do it, and thats the point...its not always 'that easy'...nor should it be.
>> Very well stated.
>
> Except for the elitist nonsense, and beside the point, really:
> If people think such a hypothetical tool would be useful and want to
> write and use such a thing, they should go ahead and do so.
> If you think this is nonsense, it's not for you, which is fine.
> It's certainly not for me. But other than stating the reasons why I
> think this is not practical and helpful in the real world, why should
> I try to convice others to /not/ write duch a thing? Because "some
> things should not be easy"?
>
I think you got the point exactly. What would we Apache wizards be for,
if it was so easy that anyone can do it ?
;-)
In an earlier post to the OP, I mentioned that there were really 2
categories of webserver administrators. I think the subsequent messages
on this topic prove the point.
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Re: [users@httpd] Re: GUI for configuring Apache httpd by editing
httpd.conf
Posted by John Hudak <jj...@gmail.com>.
I apologize...I didn't mean to hijack this thread by stating a personal
perception. Should have confined my comments to technical contributions. I
guess my point is that in designing any interface, one must consider the
complexities (e.g. the numerous interactions possible with the variables) of
the system. If the interactions are complex, a form approach can frustrate
the user just as much as having to edit a text file, and be more difficult
to build than initially thought. If one googles for 'complexity forms
data' one will find lots of guidelines to both evaluate and assess form
usability.
-John
On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 12:26 PM, Peter Schober
<pe...@univie.ac.at>wrote:
> * Glen Barber <gl...@gmail.com> [2009-02-16 18:10]:
> > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 11:40 AM, John Hudak <jj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > DITTO!!!
> > > In the 'bad old days' of computing, everything was based on a text
> file. It
> > > forces one to really understand what is behind the changes. I for one
> do
> > > not subscribe to the 'dumbing down' of operating systems and certain
> > > application via lots of window forms.... If it were easy, any primate
> could
> > > do it, and thats the point...its not always 'that easy'...nor should it
> be.
> >
> > Very well stated.
>
> Except for the elitist nonsense, and beside the point, really:
> If people think such a hypothetical tool would be useful and want to
> write and use such a thing, they should go ahead and do so.
> If you think this is nonsense, it's not for you, which is fine.
> It's certainly not for me. But other than stating the reasons why I
> think this is not practical and helpful in the real world, why should
> I try to convice others to /not/ write duch a thing? Because "some
> things should not be easy"?
>
> cheers,
> -peter
>
>
>
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>
Re: [users@httpd] Re: GUI for configuring Apache httpd by editing
httpd.conf
Posted by Peter Schober <pe...@univie.ac.at>.
* Glen Barber <gl...@gmail.com> [2009-02-16 18:10]:
> On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 11:40 AM, John Hudak <jj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > DITTO!!!
> > In the 'bad old days' of computing, everything was based on a text file. It
> > forces one to really understand what is behind the changes. I for one do
> > not subscribe to the 'dumbing down' of operating systems and certain
> > application via lots of window forms.... If it were easy, any primate could
> > do it, and thats the point...its not always 'that easy'...nor should it be.
>
> Very well stated.
Except for the elitist nonsense, and beside the point, really:
If people think such a hypothetical tool would be useful and want to
write and use such a thing, they should go ahead and do so.
If you think this is nonsense, it's not for you, which is fine.
It's certainly not for me. But other than stating the reasons why I
think this is not practical and helpful in the real world, why should
I try to convice others to /not/ write duch a thing? Because "some
things should not be easy"?
cheers,
-peter
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Re: [users@httpd] Re: GUI for configuring Apache httpd by editing
httpd.conf
Posted by Glen Barber <gl...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 11:40 AM, John Hudak <jj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> DITTO!!!
> In the 'bad old days' of computing, everything was based on a text file. It
> forces one to really understand what is behind the changes. I for one do
> not subscribe to the 'dumbing down' of operating systems and certain
> application via lots of window forms.... If it were easy, any primate could
> do it, and thats the point...its not always 'that easy'...nor should it be.
Very well stated.
--
Glen Barber
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Re: [users@httpd] Re: GUI for configuring Apache httpd by editing
httpd.conf
Posted by John Hudak <jj...@gmail.com>.
DITTO!!!
In the 'bad old days' of computing, everything was based on a text file. It
forces one to really understand what is behind the changes. I for one do
not subscribe to the 'dumbing down' of operating systems and certain
application via lots of window forms.... If it were easy, any primate could
do it, and thats the point...its not always 'that easy'...nor should it be.
-John
On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 8:06 AM, Krist van Besien <krist.vanbesien@gmail.com
> wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Mohammed obaidan <bl...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Since Apache is used on more UNIX machines than Windows machines, it
> > seems that the audience here are Linux users and are willing to edit
> > the file by a text editor without any helping tool.
>
> I find the fact that apache is configured by editing a simple text
> file one of its biggest advantages. Edits in text files are easily
> versioned. It is easy to roll back changes. It is easy to document. If
> I want something repeated on a different server that someone else
> admins I can jsut write a short message like: "add the folliwing lines
> at the end of httpd.conf". Having to walk someone through a gui is
> really a pain...
>
> Krist
> --
> krist.vanbesien@gmail.com
> krist@vanbesien.org
> Bremgarten b. Bern, Switzerland
> --
> A: It reverses the normal flow of conversation.
> Q: What's wrong with top-posting?
> A: Top-posting.
> Q: What's the biggest scourge on plain text email discussions?
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
Re: [users@httpd] Re: GUI for configuring Apache httpd by editing
httpd.conf
Posted by Krist van Besien <kr...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 12:08 PM, Mohammed obaidan <bl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Since Apache is used on more UNIX machines than Windows machines, it
> seems that the audience here are Linux users and are willing to edit
> the file by a text editor without any helping tool.
I find the fact that apache is configured by editing a simple text
file one of its biggest advantages. Edits in text files are easily
versioned. It is easy to roll back changes. It is easy to document. If
I want something repeated on a different server that someone else
admins I can jsut write a short message like: "add the folliwing lines
at the end of httpd.conf". Having to walk someone through a gui is
really a pain...
Krist
--
krist.vanbesien@gmail.com
krist@vanbesien.org
Bremgarten b. Bern, Switzerland
--
A: It reverses the normal flow of conversation.
Q: What's wrong with top-posting?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What's the biggest scourge on plain text email discussions?
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Re: [users@httpd] Re: GUI for configuring Apache httpd by editing
httpd.conf
Posted by Jim Walls <ji...@k6ccc.org>.
Mohammed obaidan wrote (in part):
> Since Apache is used on more UNIX machines than Windows machines, it
> seems that the audience here are Linux users and are willing to edit
> the file by a text editor without any helping tool. However, in my
> point of view, I think when a Windows user want a simple web server
> will go for IIS because it has a GUI. This will affect Apache usage
> share, though not that much but at least will have an impact.
>
As an Apache under Windows user, I would strongly disagree with that
statement. The ability to use a GUI had absolutely no bearing on my
decision to use Apache over IIS. It was totally based on lack of
security of most of the Microsoft products. OK, I might be a little
biased due to a problem many years ago when I needed to get a ftp server
up that would only be used for one event lasting less than one day. Set
up ftp using IIS and got virused within hours even with latest version
of IIS and all the updates at the time. Turned out to be a well known
security hole that MS had not yet fixed at that time...
Short version is that I could not care less if Apache used a GUI or not.
--
73
-------------------------------------
Jim Walls - K6CCC
jim@k6ccc.org
Ofc: 818-548-4804
http://home.earthlink.net/~k6ccc
AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395
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Re: [users@httpd] Re: GUI for configuring Apache httpd by editing
httpd.conf
Posted by Mohammed obaidan <bl...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
I read a few about the modules and found out that they are some modules come
with Apache distribution here <http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/mod/>.
Others are createds by different people here <http://modules.apache.org/>. I
think that the modules that comes with the distribution should be
implemented. I think that would be an important part of the tool.
You mentioned a few good points like it will help you in remembering
variables. It will also help you validate directives and their variables.
Regarding Apache admins, I think expert admins will not need this tool.
However most Apache admins are not that expert because Apache is used by web
developers also. Regarding the beginners I think a simple wizard will help
them
In conclusion, I think the tool should handle all the directive and the
modules included with Apache distribution.
Regards
On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 2:43 PM, Octavian Râsnita <or...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> From: "Mohammed obaidan" <bl...@gmail.com>
>>
>> I think when a Windows user want a simple web server
>> will go for IIS because it has a GUI. This will affect Apache usage
>> share, though not that much but at least will have an impact.
>
> I use Apache under Windows, because I create the programs under Windows
then
> I put them to run under Linux, and I want to use the same web server.
>
> A GUI for configuring Apache would be nice if it would let me to do
> absolutely everything I can do with a text editor.
> I would like such a tool for the cases when I forget the name of some
> variables or options in cases like those conditions that can be wrote in
> httpd.conf for preventing the access to a certain type of files, from a
> specific IP address, when the HTTP headers contain or not contain a
certain
> text, and so on.
>
>> Regarding the GUI for the modules, I think that every module creator
>> can for example implement a simple plugin for my tool, as you said,
>> since it will needs lots of time and effort.
>
> I really doubt that they would do that.
> And if they won't do that, the users would see that your tool is not able
to
> understand some parts of the configuration file, so it can't help them.
>
>> Regarding installing a basic Apache on Windows, it is not an easy
>> task. It is easy iff you install it from a package like XAMPP.
>
> I have never installed Apache under Windows that way. I have always
> installed from the .msi installer and it always was very easy.
>
>> I think such a tool will contribute a lot to Apache since it will ease
>> it configuration. I know that most of you are thinking that this tool
>> for Windows users that are so lazy to do it by hand. However I think
>> it will help them and people who are switching to Linux like myself.
>
> I think that Apache administrators already know what they need to do in
> httpd.conf, and if they know, it is more simple for them to make the
> configuration in a text editor than using a GUI.
> They could find that GUI useful if it could help them remember the
advanced
> settings which they don't remember how to do with an editor.
> But if they can't do absolutely everything with that tool... it wouldn't
be
> very useful for them, and for beginners would be very bad because it could
> make them think that it is not possible to do what that tool can't do.
>
> Octavian
>
>
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Re: [users@httpd] Re: GUI for configuring Apache httpd by editing httpd.conf
Posted by Octavian Râsnita <or...@gmail.com>.
From: "Mohammed obaidan" <bl...@gmail.com>
> I think when a Windows user want a simple web server
> will go for IIS because it has a GUI. This will affect Apache usage
> share, though not that much but at least will have an impact.
I use Apache under Windows, because I create the programs under Windows then
I put them to run under Linux, and I want to use the same web server.
A GUI for configuring Apache would be nice if it would let me to do
absolutely everything I can do with a text editor.
I would like such a tool for the cases when I forget the name of some
variables or options in cases like those conditions that can be wrote in
httpd.conf for preventing the access to a certain type of files, from a
specific IP address, when the HTTP headers contain or not contain a certain
text, and so on.
> Regarding the GUI for the modules, I think that every module creator
> can for example implement a simple plugin for my tool, as you said,
> since it will needs lots of time and effort.
I really doubt that they would do that.
And if they won't do that, the users would see that your tool is not able to
understand some parts of the configuration file, so it can't help them.
> Regarding installing a basic Apache on Windows, it is not an easy
> task. It is easy iff you install it from a package like XAMPP.
I have never installed Apache under Windows that way. I have always
installed from the .msi installer and it always was very easy.
> I think such a tool will contribute a lot to Apache since it will ease
> it configuration. I know that most of you are thinking that this tool
> for Windows users that are so lazy to do it by hand. However I think
> it will help them and people who are switching to Linux like myself.
I think that Apache administrators already know what they need to do in
httpd.conf, and if they know, it is more simple for them to make the
configuration in a text editor than using a GUI.
They could find that GUI useful if it could help them remember the advanced
settings which they don't remember how to do with an editor.
But if they can't do absolutely everything with that tool... it wouldn't be
very useful for them, and for beginners would be very bad because it could
make them think that it is not possible to do what that tool can't do.
Octavian
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Re: [users@httpd] Re: GUI for configuring Apache httpd by editing
httpd.conf
Posted by Mohammed obaidan <bl...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
OK I am really happy with the replies here and really appreciate your
opinions and ideas.
Since Apache is used on more UNIX machines than Windows machines, it
seems that the audience here are Linux users and are willing to edit
the file by a text editor without any helping tool. However, in my
point of view, I think when a Windows user want a simple web server
will go for IIS because it has a GUI. This will affect Apache usage
share, though not that much but at least will have an impact.
Regarding the GUI for the modules, I think that every module creator
can for example implement a simple plugin for my tool, as you said,
since it will needs lots of time and effort. Perhaps I will look at
the modules structure and how they work. If there is a possibilty to
make a standard plug in for modules that can be easily added to the
tool.
Regarding installing a basic Apache on Windows, it is not an easy
task. It is easy iff you install it from a package like XAMPP.
Regarding the users that will use this tool, I think the majority of
the users will be Windows users and users who are Windows users but
using Linux as a server.
I think such a tool will contribute a lot to Apache since it will ease
it configuration. I know that most of you are thinking that this tool
for Windows users that are so lazy to do it by hand. However I think
it will help them and people who are switching to Linux like myself.
One final note, I will read about the modules and their structure.
Maybe I need more understanding of them to progress. Also, I really
appreciate your comments and ideas about this issue and I hope if some
experts join our discussion.
Regards
On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 12:56 PM, André Warnier <aw...@ice-sa.com> wrote:
> Mohammed obaidan wrote:
> [...]
> My grain of salt :
>
> It is your time you will be spending, and how you spend it is up to you.
> So I do not want to discuss whether it is a good idea or not, or whether you
> can or cannot or should or should not do it.
> This is thus just a personal opinion, to add to the list for your
> consideration.
>
> If you have a look at the graphical configuration interface for IIS, you
> will see that it is a fairly complex piece of work. Lots of dialogs, lots of
> tabs, lots of options, etc..
> Yet in that case, we are talking about a commercial product made by one
> company, following rather strict guidelines of what things should look like,
> what users expect, how pieces interact with one another, etc..
>
> Apache, being something made by lots of volunteer people, much more
> independent of one another that MS employees are, with a lot more freedom to
> think along their own lines, is a different animal. The basic principles of
> the Apache configuration are fairly standard. But each module used within
> Apache has a bit of its own logic when it comes to configuration, which
> parameter fits with which other or not, and how they interact with the basic
> Apache and with other modules. In addition, although the Apache httpd team
> does a great work of orcherstrating the releases so that in the end there is
> a usable and reliable product, each module still has much its own life and
> its own release schedule.
> So in the end, I believe that making a generic tool that would handle all of
> these differences would be very complicated, and very time-consuming to keep
> up-to-date.
>
> About the point of creating an interface that would help configure the basic
> Apache, but not the individual modules :
> As some people have pointed out before, basically every operating system
> nowadays already includes an Apache package, managed by the standard
> "package manager" of that OS distribution. Using that tool, a system
> manager can install/deinstall/upgrade a basic working Apache within a couple
> of minutes at most. Adding or removing an Apache extension module is almost
> as easy in most cases, and in many cases adding or removing a VirtualHost
> also.
> But, at least in 50% of the cases, the basic Apache configuration is not
> enough, and one needs a series of the extension modules to be configured
> according to a very specific configuration and usage.
> In my view thus, it is more at the level of each extension module, rather
> than at the level of the generic Apache configuration, that a better
> interface would be useful.
> If I'm not mistaken, that's what webmin is about : it provides a kind of
> generic "framework" where one can plug in different modules, as long as
> these modules follow some basic rules. I don't know if webmin's logic is
> adaptable to Apache extension modules, but if it is, that's the direction I
> would follow. And if it isn't, then maybe defining such a generic
> interface, where each Apache module author can just easily "plug-in" his own
> graphic management module for his own extension module, would be a worthy
> enterprise.
>
> In the end however, there is another aspect.
> I believe that the users/managers of software like Apache, and
> users/managers of software like IIS, have fundamentally a different point of
> view and approach to such issues. People who like IIS and its graphical
> interface, are generally people who grew up with Windows and its graphical
> interface. They consider this to be the "normal" way of things. They are
> prepared to sacrifice a bit of understanding of what is really going on
> behind the scenes (e.g. in the dark corners of the Windows Registry), to the
> facility and ease of use of a graphical interface that makes things simpler
> on the surface.
> On the other hand, the people who like Apache as it is now, like to know
> exactly what is going on, and are prepared for that to go through the
> sometimes tedious editing of configuration files by hand with a text editor,
> knowing that by doing so they can really drive the process exactly like they
> want, without some kind of "wizard" popping up and pretending to be smarter
> than themselves.
>
> So the thing is, assuming you would create such an interface, would there
> really be a public willing to use it ?
> Considering that for the people that just want to install and configure a
> basic Apache, it is already easy on most systems; and considering that due
> to the nature of Apache and its modules, it is always going to be very hard
> to create a graphical interface that satisfies the needs of the more finicky
> others, I personally doubt it.
> But then, for some system administration tasks, I also enjoy the facilities
> offered by some graphical interfaces, so maybe I'm wrong.
>
> Good luck anyway.
>
>
>
>
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> See <URL:http://httpd.apache.org/userslist.html> for more info.
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Re: [users@httpd] Re: GUI for configuring Apache httpd by editing
httpd.conf
Posted by André Warnier <aw...@ice-sa.com>.
Mohammed obaidan wrote:
[...]
My grain of salt :
It is your time you will be spending, and how you spend it is up to you.
So I do not want to discuss whether it is a good idea or not, or whether
you can or cannot or should or should not do it.
This is thus just a personal opinion, to add to the list for your
consideration.
If you have a look at the graphical configuration interface for IIS, you
will see that it is a fairly complex piece of work. Lots of dialogs,
lots of tabs, lots of options, etc..
Yet in that case, we are talking about a commercial product made by one
company, following rather strict guidelines of what things should look
like, what users expect, how pieces interact with one another, etc..
Apache, being something made by lots of volunteer people, much more
independent of one another that MS employees are, with a lot more
freedom to think along their own lines, is a different animal. The
basic principles of the Apache configuration are fairly standard. But
each module used within Apache has a bit of its own logic when it comes
to configuration, which parameter fits with which other or not, and how
they interact with the basic Apache and with other modules. In addition,
although the Apache httpd team does a great work of orcherstrating the
releases so that in the end there is a usable and reliable product, each
module still has much its own life and its own release schedule.
So in the end, I believe that making a generic tool that would handle
all of these differences would be very complicated, and very
time-consuming to keep up-to-date.
About the point of creating an interface that would help configure the
basic Apache, but not the individual modules :
As some people have pointed out before, basically every operating system
nowadays already includes an Apache package, managed by the standard
"package manager" of that OS distribution. Using that tool, a system
manager can install/deinstall/upgrade a basic working Apache within a
couple of minutes at most. Adding or removing an Apache extension
module is almost as easy in most cases, and in many cases adding or
removing a VirtualHost also.
But, at least in 50% of the cases, the basic Apache configuration is not
enough, and one needs a series of the extension modules to be configured
according to a very specific configuration and usage.
In my view thus, it is more at the level of each extension module,
rather than at the level of the generic Apache configuration, that a
better interface would be useful.
If I'm not mistaken, that's what webmin is about : it provides a kind of
generic "framework" where one can plug in different modules, as long as
these modules follow some basic rules. I don't know if webmin's logic
is adaptable to Apache extension modules, but if it is, that's the
direction I would follow. And if it isn't, then maybe defining such a
generic interface, where each Apache module author can just easily
"plug-in" his own graphic management module for his own extension
module, would be a worthy enterprise.
In the end however, there is another aspect.
I believe that the users/managers of software like Apache, and
users/managers of software like IIS, have fundamentally a different
point of view and approach to such issues. People who like IIS and its
graphical interface, are generally people who grew up with Windows and
its graphical interface. They consider this to be the "normal" way of
things. They are prepared to sacrifice a bit of understanding of what
is really going on behind the scenes (e.g. in the dark corners of the
Windows Registry), to the facility and ease of use of a graphical
interface that makes things simpler on the surface.
On the other hand, the people who like Apache as it is now, like to know
exactly what is going on, and are prepared for that to go through the
sometimes tedious editing of configuration files by hand with a text
editor, knowing that by doing so they can really drive the process
exactly like they want, without some kind of "wizard" popping up and
pretending to be smarter than themselves.
So the thing is, assuming you would create such an interface, would
there really be a public willing to use it ?
Considering that for the people that just want to install and configure
a basic Apache, it is already easy on most systems; and considering that
due to the nature of Apache and its modules, it is always going to be
very hard to create a graphical interface that satisfies the needs of
the more finicky others, I personally doubt it.
But then, for some system administration tasks, I also enjoy the
facilities offered by some graphical interfaces, so maybe I'm wrong.
Good luck anyway.
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Re: [users@httpd] Re: GUI for configuring Apache httpd by editing
httpd.conf
Posted by Mohammed obaidan <bl...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
I took a look at webmin and it is really amazing and beautiful.
However, to install it you need lots of work because it has lots of modules.
Regarding the Apache configuration part it is really wonderful.
However, I do not think it covers all Apache configurations and it
does not have extra tools for administrating Apache.
I think webmin is a very good and powerful tool for administrating
Unix servers and I think I will adapt some of the parts that deals
with Apache configuration.
One more note. The software that I am developing will have some
helpful wizards like a wizard to make a new configuration file from
scratch that contains the needed directives to start an Apache server.
Also webmin assumes that a configuration file already exists and
Apache is up and running. While my software will not assume that but
will help you get Apache up and running.
Thank you for mentioning webmin and frankly I really liked at a lot
and I definitely use it to manage my server.
Regards
On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 4:22 PM, Dan Poirier <po...@pobox.com> wrote:
> Bogdan Cristea <cr...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Saturday 14 February 2009 14:04:34 Mohammed obaidan wrote:
>>> I was searching the internet for a GUI tool for configuring the Apache
>>> httpd server.
>
>> openSuSE has a GUI for Apache configuration called from their system
>> management tool: yast2. I guess that other distros should have something
>> similar
>
> There's also webmin (http://webmin.com), which is distribution-neutral.
> I haven't looked at it, but it might be a source of inspiration.
>
> Dan
>
>
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Re: [users@httpd] Re: GUI for configuring Apache httpd by editinghttpd.conf
Posted by Octavian Râsnita <or...@gmail.com>.
I think that it doesn't matter if a module is a part of Apache or it is a
third party one. If someone uses some modules in httpd.conf, that tool will
need to be able to understand them, because otherwise that tool would be
useless. And I guess most of the Apache admins use some kind of external
modules like mod_php, or mod_python, (or mod_perl which is not so "third
party").
But mod_perl allow including even perl code in httpd.conf, so that tool even
though it shouldn't understand the perl code, it should be able to
understand the XML elements used for including that code, for allowing the
admins to modify it.
Octavian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Schober" <pe...@univie.ac.at>
To: <us...@httpd.apache.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 12:18 AM
Subject: Re: [users@httpd] Re: GUI for configuring Apache httpd by
editinghttpd.conf
> Just a few thoughts from the top of my head...
>
> * Mohammed obaidan <bl...@gmail.com> [2009-02-14 14:53]:
>> What I really aiming at is complete portable administration tool for
>> Apache. I am heading for this goal step by step and the first step is
>> the GUI for configuring Apache.
>
> So you want to write a complete admin tool with a GUI, that means a
> GUI item for every single httpd directive (or it's possible values, if
> restricted)? Seems like an awful lot of knobs to turn?
> Also what does complete with regard to the supported modules and their
> respective config options mean? Is this tool complete, iff it has a
> knob for every directive that's available when doing `configure &&
> make && make`? How about distribution's and other packaged versions
> and their modules? Whom are you targetting? All of them?
>
> You said this would possibly run on MS-Windows and other OSes, so it
> will be standalone desktop application? And it's output/result of
> using that GUI would be what? A single httpd.conf file? What if my
> OS/distribution uses split config files (or does not use those)?
> Does that mean I cannot use the file, produced by your GUI tool?
> Or will I have to ssh to $server and hack at this file with $EDITOR
> to make the neccessary changes?
>
> Or will it somehow interact with httpd? Push the config file on some
> server (preferrably via secure protocols) or check the config file
> into a VCS? How will httpd learn of the changes? Automatic reloading?
> Might need a full restart, though. After doing syntax checks
> (e.g. `apachectl -t`)? Who will parse the output of the syntax checks?
>
> I'm sure this could all be solved, given the resources.
> I'm not so sure if these resources would be spent wisely, though.
>
> cheers,
> -peter
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [users@httpd] Re: GUI for configuring Apache httpd by editing
httpd.conf
Posted by Mohammed obaidan <bl...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
OK there are a lot of questions to be answered.
Regrading the directives, do not worry about the GUI. The GUI problem
is easy to solve and they are many options to tackle this, for
example, using a table to show the directives and group similar
directives. That is a quick solution for it. since the aim is a
complete Apache GUI admin tool, all the directive of Apache will be
present, available to the user and validated.
Regarding the modules, the modules are not part of the Apache server.
That also applies to the distributions and packages modules.
Regarding split config files, this can be solved by giving a user the
option to have a split config file or not.
Regarding automatic reloading and syntax checking, this is not the
time to discuss it. As I told you before the aim is a portable Apache
GUI admin tool the first step is the httpd.conf file.
> I'm sure this could all be solved, given the resources.
> I'm not so sure if these resources would be spent wisely, though.
Well my friend, we will see about that.
One final note and I want to reemphasize is that
The aim is a portable Apache GUI admin tool.
The first step is the httpd.conf file.
This tool is solely for Apache httpd server not for third party
modules or distribution or packages
Regards
On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 1:18 AM, Peter Schober
<pe...@univie.ac.at> wrote:
> Just a few thoughts from the top of my head...
>
> * Mohammed obaidan <bl...@gmail.com> [2009-02-14 14:53]:
>> What I really aiming at is complete portable administration tool for
>> Apache. I am heading for this goal step by step and the first step is
>> the GUI for configuring Apache.
>
> So you want to write a complete admin tool with a GUI, that means a
> GUI item for every single httpd directive (or it's possible values, if
> restricted)? Seems like an awful lot of knobs to turn?
> Also what does complete with regard to the supported modules and their
> respective config options mean? Is this tool complete, iff it has a
> knob for every directive that's available when doing `configure &&
> make && make`? How about distribution's and other packaged versions
> and their modules? Whom are you targetting? All of them?
>
> You said this would possibly run on MS-Windows and other OSes, so it
> will be standalone desktop application? And it's output/result of
> using that GUI would be what? A single httpd.conf file? What if my
> OS/distribution uses split config files (or does not use those)?
> Does that mean I cannot use the file, produced by your GUI tool?
> Or will I have to ssh to $server and hack at this file with $EDITOR
> to make the neccessary changes?
>
> Or will it somehow interact with httpd? Push the config file on some
> server (preferrably via secure protocols) or check the config file
> into a VCS? How will httpd learn of the changes? Automatic reloading?
> Might need a full restart, though. After doing syntax checks
> (e.g. `apachectl -t`)? Who will parse the output of the syntax checks?
>
> I'm sure this could all be solved, given the resources.
> I'm not so sure if these resources would be spent wisely, though.
>
> cheers,
> -peter
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [users@httpd] Re: GUI for configuring Apache httpd by editing
httpd.conf
Posted by Peter Schober <pe...@univie.ac.at>.
Just a few thoughts from the top of my head...
* Mohammed obaidan <bl...@gmail.com> [2009-02-14 14:53]:
> What I really aiming at is complete portable administration tool for
> Apache. I am heading for this goal step by step and the first step is
> the GUI for configuring Apache.
So you want to write a complete admin tool with a GUI, that means a
GUI item for every single httpd directive (or it's possible values, if
restricted)? Seems like an awful lot of knobs to turn?
Also what does complete with regard to the supported modules and their
respective config options mean? Is this tool complete, iff it has a
knob for every directive that's available when doing `configure &&
make && make`? How about distribution's and other packaged versions
and their modules? Whom are you targetting? All of them?
You said this would possibly run on MS-Windows and other OSes, so it
will be standalone desktop application? And it's output/result of
using that GUI would be what? A single httpd.conf file? What if my
OS/distribution uses split config files (or does not use those)?
Does that mean I cannot use the file, produced by your GUI tool?
Or will I have to ssh to $server and hack at this file with $EDITOR
to make the neccessary changes?
Or will it somehow interact with httpd? Push the config file on some
server (preferrably via secure protocols) or check the config file
into a VCS? How will httpd learn of the changes? Automatic reloading?
Might need a full restart, though. After doing syntax checks
(e.g. `apachectl -t`)? Who will parse the output of the syntax checks?
I'm sure this could all be solved, given the resources.
I'm not so sure if these resources would be spent wisely, though.
cheers,
-peter
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[users@httpd] Re: GUI for configuring Apache httpd by editing httpd.conf
Posted by Dan Poirier <po...@pobox.com>.
Mohammed obaidan <bl...@gmail.com> writes:
> I will take a look at webmin. Also I am considering making the
> software for windows and Linux so if a certain linux distribution has
> its own configuration tool that will not be considered as a portable
> tool for configuring Apache.
Don't forget Mac, Solaris, etc. If you're going to make it portable,
you might as well do it right :-)
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Re: [users@httpd] Re: GUI for configuring Apache httpd by editing
httpd.conf
Posted by Mohammed obaidan <bl...@gmail.com>.
I will take a look at webmin. Also I am considering making the
software for windows and Linux so if a certain linux distribution has
its own configuration tool that will not be considered as a portable
tool for configuring Apache.
Also we can expand the project after implementing the main features.
For example a wizard to optimize Apache, a wizard to simplify creating
virtual hosts and a .htaccess password creator .. etc.
What I really aiming at is complete portable administration tool for
Apache. I am heading for this goal step by step and the first step is
the GUI for configuring Apache.
Regards
On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 4:22 PM, Dan Poirier <po...@pobox.com> wrote:
> Bogdan Cristea <cr...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Saturday 14 February 2009 14:04:34 Mohammed obaidan wrote:
>>> I was searching the internet for a GUI tool for configuring the Apache
>>> httpd server.
>
>> openSuSE has a GUI for Apache configuration called from their system
>> management tool: yast2. I guess that other distros should have something
>> similar
>
> There's also webmin (http://webmin.com), which is distribution-neutral.
> I haven't looked at it, but it might be a source of inspiration.
>
> Dan
>
>
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[users@httpd] Re: GUI for configuring Apache httpd by editing httpd.conf
Posted by Dan Poirier <po...@pobox.com>.
Bogdan Cristea <cr...@gmail.com> writes:
> On Saturday 14 February 2009 14:04:34 Mohammed obaidan wrote:
>> I was searching the internet for a GUI tool for configuring the Apache
>> httpd server.
> openSuSE has a GUI for Apache configuration called from their system
> management tool: yast2. I guess that other distros should have something
> similar
There's also webmin (http://webmin.com), which is distribution-neutral.
I haven't looked at it, but it might be a source of inspiration.
Dan
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Re: [users@httpd] GUI for configuring Apache httpd by editing httpd.conf
Posted by Bogdan Cristea <cr...@gmail.com>.
On Saturday 14 February 2009 14:04:34 Mohammed obaidan wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I was searching the internet for a GUI tool for configuring the Apache
> httpd server. I found two commercial tools but no open source ones. So I am
> going to develop an open source software using java for configuring and
> maybe administrating Apache httpd server. I am sending this mail to ask if
> there is already such an open source software or not. If there is not and
> there is somebody wants to help me on this project please visit the project
> site<http://sourceforge.net/projects/apachifire/>
> .
>
> Thank you
>
> Regards
openSuSE has a GUI for Apache configuration called from their system
management tool: yast2. I guess that other distros should have something
similar
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[users@httpd] Re: GUI for configuring Apache httpd by editing httpd.conf
Posted by Dan Poirier <po...@pobox.com>.
Mohammed obaidan <bl...@gmail.com> writes:
> Hi,I was searching the internet for a GUI tool for configuring the
> Apache httpd server. I found two commercial tools but no open source
> ones. So I am going to develop an open source software using java for
> configuring and maybe administrating Apache httpd server. I am sending
> this mail to ask if there is already such an open source software or
> not. If there is not and there is somebody wants to help me on this
> project please visit the project
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/apachifire/.
This sounds like it would be a useful tool. You'll probably want to
start with 2.2, but at some point you should also look at the new
version under development, which will likely have some significant
changes in some areas of configuration.
I suggest you send updates to this list periodically, for example when
you have something ready for people to try. And of course ask questions
as needed about how things work.
Dan
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