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Posted to dev@maven.apache.org by "Henning P. Schmiedehausen" <hp...@intermeta.de> on 2003/01/30 15:37:25 UTC
Will we ever get another beta? (provocative :-) )
Hi,
will Maven 1.0b7 go the way of Turbine 2.1 (being abandoned somewhere
after the last "official" release in favour of another tool) and just
be "released when it's ready (which will be never) or is there some
sort of release schedule planned for a beta8, beta<x>, rc1, rc<x>, 1.0
release?
Or will we have to live off the "CVS snapshot of the day" forever?
Sorry for being provocative but look at all the various versions which
call themselved "maven 1.0b8".
Regards
Henning
--
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH hps@intermeta.de
Am Schwabachgrund 22 Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0 info@intermeta.de
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20
Re: Will we ever get another beta? (provocative :-) )
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Henri Yandell wrote:
>
>>What you are saying has a lot of truth to it. However, selectively so.
>> Once concrete example: the genesis of Ant was due to the brilliance of
>>a single individual who left it to die. It was nursed along by first
>>Stefano and then myself. It really started to flourish when Conor and
>>Stefan got involved.
>>
>>My point? No question that it often takes an key individual to get
>>things started. But for the long term, what is important is that there
>>is a community.
>
> Do communities really take a product to new levels, or does design
> innovation always come from key individuals, and then support,
> maintainance and general quality come from a community?
It is easy to shoot down any argument which contains an "always" in it.
I've been a part of many projects (both commercial and open source) in
which innovation was achieved as a team effort.
It is also true, however, that more often than not innovation comes from
key individuals. That does not trouble me. Should such an individual
wish to patent their innovation and make a bazillion off of it, that's
OK with me. Should such an individual wish to publish their code under
an open source license but then retain exclusive right to decide who
they wish to collaborate with, that's also OK with me.
However, such a person would need to pursue either of these paths elsewhere.
- Sam Ruby
Re: Will we ever get another beta? (provocative :-) )
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Fri, 31 Jan 2003, Sam Ruby wrote:
> Jason,
>
> What you are saying has a lot of truth to it. However, selectively so.
> Once concrete example: the genesis of Ant was due to the brilliance of
> a single individual who left it to die. It was nursed along by first
> Stefano and then myself. It really started to flourish when Conor and
> Stefan got involved.
>
> My point? No question that it often takes an key individual to get
> things started. But for the long term, what is important is that there
> is a community.
Do communities really take a product to new levels, or does design
innovation always come from key individuals, and then support,
maintainance and general quality come from a community?
Hen
Re: Will we ever get another beta? (provocative :-) )
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Jason van Zyl wrote:
>>
>>http://www.apache.org/ says:
>>"The Apache Software Foundation provides support for the Apache
>>community of open-source software projects. The Apache projects are
>>characterized by a collaborative, consensus based development process,
>>an open and pragmatic software license, and a desire to create high
>>quality software that leads the way in its field. We consider ourselves
>>not simply a group of projects sharing a server, but rather a community
>>of developers and users."
>
> Yes, that's what it says. But ask yourself at which point in history can
> you attach the above mentioned process to the projects you can think of
> here at Apache. I'm not familiar with the HTTP project but I know quite
> a bit about the Java-based projects.
Jason,
What you are saying has a lot of truth to it. However, selectively so.
Once concrete example: the genesis of Ant was due to the brilliance of
a single individual who left it to die. It was nursed along by first
Stefano and then myself. It really started to flourish when Conor and
Stefan got involved.
My point? No question that it often takes an key individual to get
things started. But for the long term, what is important is that there
is a community.
- Sam Ruby
Re: Will we ever get another beta? (provocative :-) )
Posted by Jason van Zyl <ja...@zenplex.com>.
On Fri, 2003-01-31 at 03:55, Leo Simons wrote:
> Jason van Zyl wrote:
> >>Jason wrote:
> >><snip/>
> >> >This is in fact how all successful projects are developed.
> >><snip/>
> >>
> >>quoting Peter Donald's signature: "why does everyone always
> >>overgeneralize?" (who probably quoted someone else :D) I'll try and shut
> >>up about community, consensus and all that though.
> >
> > Well, you didn't actually say anything.
>
> by intention :D ....nevertheless....
>
> > I don't see a _single_ project
> > on the Jakarta home page that doesn't fit my assertion above. Not a
> > single one. I don't call groups of people developing software
> > communities.
> <snip/>
>
> http://www.apache.org/ says:
> "The Apache Software Foundation provides support for the Apache
> community of open-source software projects. The Apache projects are
> characterized by a collaborative, consensus based development process,
> an open and pragmatic software license, and a desire to create high
> quality software that leads the way in its field. We consider ourselves
> not simply a group of projects sharing a server, but rather a community
> of developers and users."
Yes, that's what it says. But ask yourself at which point in history can
you attach the above mentioned process to the projects you can think of
here at Apache. I'm not familiar with the HTTP project but I know quite
a bit about the Java-based projects.
> cheers,
>
> - Leo
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: turbine-maven-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
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--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
Re: Will we ever get another beta? (provocative :-) )
Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
Jason van Zyl wrote:
>>Jason wrote:
>><snip/>
>> >This is in fact how all successful projects are developed.
>><snip/>
>>
>>quoting Peter Donald's signature: "why does everyone always
>>overgeneralize?" (who probably quoted someone else :D) I'll try and shut
>>up about community, consensus and all that though.
>
> Well, you didn't actually say anything.
by intention :D ....nevertheless....
> I don't see a _single_ project
> on the Jakarta home page that doesn't fit my assertion above. Not a
> single one. I don't call groups of people developing software
> communities.
<snip/>
http://www.apache.org/ says:
"The Apache Software Foundation provides support for the Apache
community of open-source software projects. The Apache projects are
characterized by a collaborative, consensus based development process,
an open and pragmatic software license, and a desire to create high
quality software that leads the way in its field. We consider ourselves
not simply a group of projects sharing a server, but rather a community
of developers and users."
cheers,
- Leo
Re: Will we ever get another beta? (provocative :-) )
Posted by Jason van Zyl <ja...@zenplex.com>.
On Thu, 2003-01-30 at 17:41, Leo Simons wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I would very much like to see a stable maven 1.0 sometime soon because
> it is a cool tool and I will rather certainly use it (we're talking of
> moving all of avalon over to use it atm).
>
> However, I don't want to even try and push the developers into rushing
> things or even changing (or setting up) their schedule because this
> particular desire of mine.
No worries, it won't.
> If it makes sense for the maven project to
> take a few more months or a few more years before a stable release,
> well, screw me and my needs :D. What's better for maven is in the end
> probably better for apache as well!
>
> you run a cvs snapshot? your choice. But do understand "release when
> ready" is a perfectly good model for OSS development (ex: mozilla), and
> please do respect that course :).
>
> Henning P. Schmiedehausen wrote:
> <snip/>
> > Or will we have to live off the "CVS snapshot of the day" forever?
> <snip/>
> > Will we ever get another beta? (provocative :-) )
>
> an appropriate response might be: well, duh! :-)
>
> oh, one small nitpick tho'...
>
> Jason wrote:
> <snip/>
> >This is in fact how all successful projects are developed.
> <snip/>
>
> quoting Peter Donald's signature: "why does everyone always
> overgeneralize?" (who probably quoted someone else :D) I'll try and shut
> up about community, consensus and all that though.
Well, you didn't actually say anything. I don't see a _single_ project
on the Jakarta home page that doesn't fit my assertion above. Not a
single one. I don't call groups of people developing software
communities. There is a fundamental distinction between real physical
communities, like that which I live in with my neighbours, and a group
of people making software. One is certainly the physicality and second
the nature of people who develop software. I find it highly ironic that
those who praise the gospels of 'community' software development are
those that have satisfied their creative urges and made a good piece of
software. The so called 'community' follows later and subsequently these
individuals expound the virtues of community expecting other to deny the
urges that they themselves went to great lengths to satisfy.
I am not saying I don't want to work with others but I'm certainly
selective. I enjoy working with Bob, Dion, James (both), Pete, Kurt and
I enjoy it because they are driven and want to make something that is
good. I don't want to work with everyone. I just find lately some groups
getting bamboozled by the myth of community and there are people doing
things that are neither technically qualified or gifted at leading. I
personally find that disgusting and I know for certain it's not going to
lead to good software.
I certainly believe, and strongly, that consensus decision making has a
fundamental role and is essential in things like parenting, education of
children the formation of social policy. But developing software is an
engineering discipline that requires a certain type of person. Rigour,
relentless pursuit of something better and quality are first. I'm
frankly not interested in the "I'm ok, you're ok" bullshit. The fact of
the matter is that some people are not "ok" at developing software and
there is some seriously shitty software here and elsewhere.
OSS software wins out over commercial alternatives when the development
is driven by a small group of determined individuals. I care deeply
about people who use the results of projects I work on. I have
engineered my situation so that all my work time revolves around OSS
software and the majority of my spare time is devoted to it. The people
I work with are similiar in nature and that's the way I like it. And I
think we'll produce something that works better than anything that
currently exists.
My ultimate goal is to program myself out of a job. People don't much
make fuss over using a toilet or turning on a tap. But at one point in
time making the trek to an outhouse or digging a well was a real drag.
For most people using software it is a drag. People complain about it
all the time. It consumes far too much time, the use of computers is
highly overrated. As technological advances are made we rapidly become
accustomed to the convenience of once burdensome operations. Once these
advances are made the once unoptimized operations are rarely topics of
conversation. People expect the sockets in their houses to work, they
expect the water to come out of taps. We've become dependent on (at
least in the 1st world) and accustomed to electricity and indoor
plumbing and as these things advanced real notice of them disappeared
and there use faded into the background of things. I hope one day that
software is so useful and easy to use that talk of it as a nuisance
fades into the background. At which point there is no more work for me
and I hopefully go back to working a farm, playing music and printing
books. Might not happen in my lifetime but that's what I'm shooting for.
> cheers all,
>
> - Leo
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: turbine-maven-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: turbine-maven-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
Re: Will we ever get another beta? (provocative :-) )
Posted by "Henning P. Schmiedehausen" <hp...@intermeta.de>.
Leo Simons <le...@apache.org> writes:
>you run a cvs snapshot? your choice. But do understand "release when
No. IT IS NOT. That's the whole point. Projects like Turbine simply don't
build any longer with 1.0b7". I'd love to run 1.0b7. Hell, I ran 1.0b4
for as long as it was possible. But using the CVS head was simply _forced_
by "hey, we could use that feature at turbine|commons|somewhere else".
Just try to build e.g. the commons with 1.0b7.
Regards
Henning
--
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH hps@intermeta.de
Am Schwabachgrund 22 Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0 info@intermeta.de
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20
Re: Will we ever get another beta? (provocative :-) )
Posted by Kurt Schrader <ks...@karmalab.org>.
On Thu, 30 Jan 2003, Leo Simons wrote:
> quoting Peter Donald's signature: "why does everyone always
> overgeneralize?" (who probably quoted someone else :D) I'll try and shut
> up about community, consensus and all that though.
Not all projects can match the level of community love and collaboration
that the Avalon project has. ;-)
-Kurt
Re: Will we ever get another beta? (provocative :-) )
Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
Hi all,
I would very much like to see a stable maven 1.0 sometime soon because
it is a cool tool and I will rather certainly use it (we're talking of
moving all of avalon over to use it atm).
However, I don't want to even try and push the developers into rushing
things or even changing (or setting up) their schedule because this
particular desire of mine. If it makes sense for the maven project to
take a few more months or a few more years before a stable release,
well, screw me and my needs :D. What's better for maven is in the end
probably better for apache as well!
you run a cvs snapshot? your choice. But do understand "release when
ready" is a perfectly good model for OSS development (ex: mozilla), and
please do respect that course :).
Henning P. Schmiedehausen wrote:
<snip/>
> Or will we have to live off the "CVS snapshot of the day" forever?
<snip/>
> Will we ever get another beta? (provocative :-) )
an appropriate response might be: well, duh! :-)
oh, one small nitpick tho'...
Jason wrote:
<snip/>
>This is in fact how all successful projects are developed.
<snip/>
quoting Peter Donald's signature: "why does everyone always
overgeneralize?" (who probably quoted someone else :D) I'll try and shut
up about community, consensus and all that though.
cheers all,
- Leo
Re: Will we ever get another beta? (provocative :-) )
Posted by "Henning P. Schmiedehausen" <hp...@intermeta.de>.
dion@multitask.com.au writes:
>> Sorry for being provocative but look at all the various versions which
>> call themselved "maven 1.0b8".
>Where are these versions? AFAIK, there is no released version of maven
>beta 8.
Every CVS head since ages calls itself "1.0b8". Imagine the fun when a "real"
1.0b8 comes around...
Regards
Henning
--
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen -- Geschaeftsfuehrer
INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH hps@intermeta.de
Am Schwabachgrund 22 Fon.: 09131 / 50654-0 info@intermeta.de
D-91054 Buckenhof Fax.: 09131 / 50654-20
Re: Will we ever get another beta? (provocative :-) )
Posted by di...@multitask.com.au.
henning@forge.intermeta.de wrote on 31/01/2003 01:37:25 AM:
> Hi,
>
> will Maven 1.0b7 go the way of Turbine 2.1 (being abandoned somewhere
> after the last "official" release in favour of another tool) and just
> be "released when it's ready (which will be never) or is there some
> sort of release schedule planned for a beta8, beta<x>, rc1, rc<x>, 1.0
> release?
There are a list of things planned for beta8 and 9. Must haves that were
posted up here about two weeks ago. They are in maven's CVS repository
under xdocs/tasks.xml.
Things do come along and take away resource from Maven and slow us down,
for example, getting Jelly into a releasable state. Getting Maven built by
Gump. A personal life. A job.
> Or will we have to live off the "CVS snapshot of the day" forever?
Facetious-comment ignored.
> Sorry for being provocative but look at all the various versions which
> call themselved "maven 1.0b8".
Where are these versions? AFAIK, there is no released version of maven
beta 8.
Does this help?
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Blog: http://www.freeroller.net/page/dion/Weblog
Work: http://www.multitask.com.au