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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Dain Sundstrom <da...@iq80.com> on 2005/12/24 20:05:05 UTC
Corporations and the incubator
On Dec 22, 2005, at 9:19 PM, Ted Leung wrote:
> To us an Apache project is an effort of the ASF. To the majority
> of people out there, being an Apache project (rightly or wrongly)
> is branding stamp. You might not like it, but that's how many
> people treat it. And that's why one of the first things a company
> wants do when it proposes incubation is issue a press release.
I keep seeing this sentiment repeated on this list and I think we
should address this concern directly.
I've dealt with a few companies involved with projects being
incubated, and everyone of them was very concerned about doing the
right thing. The last thing they want to do is anger the ASF right
when they are getting involved. The problem I have found is that
they are just not familiar with the incubator, and make bad
assumption. I bet that if we let the corporations know the "Dos and
Don'ts" of working with the incubator, they will be followed (at
least more often then they are now :)
I suggest we add a "For corporations" section to the "Incubator
Guidelines Documentation" which would contain things, like:
Don't do a press release. An incubating project is not officially
part of the ASF, and a press release will imply that the project is
part of the ASF. This one really makes ASF members angry, so don't
go here.
Don't "just" print some t-shirts with the ASF logo or the incubating
project's logo. See "Don't do a press release" for reasons.
Do move copyright notices from all source files to the NOTICE file.
Do donate to the ASF :)
I'm sure there are many more.
What do you think?
-dain
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Re: Corporations and the incubator
Posted by Martin Sebor <se...@roguewave.com>.
Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
> On Sat, 2005-12-24 at 13:00 -0700, Martin Sebor wrote:
>
>>>Don't do a press release. An incubating project is not officially part
>>>of the ASF, and a press release will imply that the project is part of
>>>the ASF. This one really makes ASF members angry, so don't go here.
>>
>>-1
>>
>>Press releases are a means for companies to announce noteworthy
>>events to the public.
>
> ...
>
>>>Don't "just" print some t-shirts with the ASF logo or the incubating
>>>project's logo. See "Don't do a press release" for reasons.
>>
>>-1
>>
>>I see nothing wrong with printing T-shirts or other promotional
>>items as long as their design is approved by the ASF.
>
>
> I disagree on both counts - while going thru incubation it is important
> to recognize that a project is *not* part of the ASF until it completes
> incubation. If we allow people to do press releases, print t-shirts and
> coffee mugs etc., then the rest of the world has no way to distinguish
> between a real ASF project and an incubating one.
I would be surprised if anyone made a decision of any consequence
based on what they saw on a T-shirt or a coffee mug :) I certainly
don't see that happening if the mug or T-shirt simply urges people
to check the project out and get involved in its development, and
when it carries the required disclaimer.
>
> We don't allow code releases from the incubator except with carefully
> minted words.
The requirements I know of are the word "incubating" in the name
of the tarball and the disclaimer at the top of the project's README.
With that and with the approval of the Incubator PMC, podlings are
permitted to do releases. So if that's good enough for the actual
code why not for the mug or T-shirt, especially when the approval
comes from the Board itself?
> Given we can't do that with t-shirts,
Pardon my ignorance but how is that a given? I ask because I've read
two contradictory opinions. When asked informally, at least three
ASF members (one of them a Board member, and one of them our mentor)
responded favorably to our request to print T-shirts promoting the
STDCXX podling.
> its best to just say
> no. Press releases could have the disclaimer text- but the reality is
> that when the story gets carried by various folks they drop that stuff-
> the story simply isn't powerful enough with a disclaimer. So we end up
> losing.
My concern is that by restricting how we can talk about new efforts
in the incubator and to whom, the ASF makes it exceedingly difficult
for podlings to build up communities around them. Since the ASF has
accepted the donated projects I would expect it to want to do its
best to help them succeed. Instead, my impression from discussions
such as this one is that there is an atmosphere of distrust of new
projects, especially those donated by third parties.
Martin
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Re: Corporations and the incubator
Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>.
On 12/25/2005 6:03 PM, Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
>On Sat, 2005-12-24 at 13:00 -0700, Martin Sebor wrote:
>
>
>>>Don't do a press release. An incubating project is not officially part
>>>of the ASF, and a press release will imply that the project is part of
>>>the ASF. This one really makes ASF members angry, so don't go here.
>>>
>>>
>>-1
>>
>>Press releases are a means for companies to announce noteworthy
>>events to the public.
>>
>>
>...
>
>
>>>Don't "just" print some t-shirts with the ASF logo or the incubating
>>>project's logo. See "Don't do a press release" for reasons.
>>>
>>>
>>-1
>>
>>I see nothing wrong with printing T-shirts or other promotional
>>items as long as their design is approved by the ASF.
>>
>>
>
>I disagree on both counts - while going thru incubation it is important
>to recognize that a project is *not* part of the ASF until it completes
>incubation. If we allow people to do press releases, print t-shirts and
>coffee mugs etc., then the rest of the world has no way to distinguish
>between a real ASF project and an incubating one.
>
>We don't allow code releases from the incubator except with carefully
>minted words. Given we can't do that with t-shirts, its best to just say
>no. Press releases could have the disclaimer text- but the reality is
>that when the story gets carried by various folks they drop that stuff-
>the story simply isn't powerful enough with a disclaimer. So we end up
>losing.
>
>So I agree with Dain's proposals!
>
>
These reflect my sentiments as well.
Regards,
Alan
Re: Corporations and the incubator
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk>.
On Sat, 2005-12-24 at 13:00 -0700, Martin Sebor wrote:
> > Don't do a press release. An incubating project is not officially part
> > of the ASF, and a press release will imply that the project is part of
> > the ASF. This one really makes ASF members angry, so don't go here.
>
> -1
>
> Press releases are a means for companies to announce noteworthy
> events to the public.
...
> > Don't "just" print some t-shirts with the ASF logo or the incubating
> > project's logo. See "Don't do a press release" for reasons.
>
> -1
>
> I see nothing wrong with printing T-shirts or other promotional
> items as long as their design is approved by the ASF.
I disagree on both counts - while going thru incubation it is important
to recognize that a project is *not* part of the ASF until it completes
incubation. If we allow people to do press releases, print t-shirts and
coffee mugs etc., then the rest of the world has no way to distinguish
between a real ASF project and an incubating one.
We don't allow code releases from the incubator except with carefully
minted words. Given we can't do that with t-shirts, its best to just say
no. Press releases could have the disclaimer text- but the reality is
that when the story gets carried by various folks they drop that stuff-
the story simply isn't powerful enough with a disclaimer. So we end up
losing.
So I agree with Dain's proposals!
Sanjiva.
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Re: Corporations and the incubator
Posted by Martin Sebor <se...@roguewave.com>.
Steven Noels wrote:
[...]
> IMHO, actually very _few_ companies issue PR around their ASF
> involvement, considering the fact that the ASF biosphere is one of a
> myriad of tiny (one-person), small (a few people), and then larger
> companies employing individuals which contribute to ASF projects, quite
> a few of them during company hours.
Doesn't that imply that there is no problem with press releases, then,
and thus no reason to prohibit donor companies from putting them out?
[...]
>
> Are the companies not issuing PR lazy asses, or plain dumb? Not willing
> to inform the public?
I would be more inclined to think that they simply do not consider
it worthwhile. Donating a 100 KLOC project and the time of a handful
of developers may not be a big deal to a billion dollar company, but
it most likely is for a company that's fraction of the size. Especially
one that doesn't seek to derive significant immediate revenue from doing
so.
Martin
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Re: Corporations and the incubator
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 24 Dec 2005, at 21:00, Martin Sebor wrote:
> Press releases are a means for companies to announce noteworthy
> events to the public. Certainly, donating a substantial code base
> and committing to maintaining and typically also supporting that
> code base free of charge while at the same time taking on the task
> of building a diverse community around the donated project and
> shepherding it through the incubation process is a noteworthy
> event and can be a significant financial undertaking on the part
> of the donating organization that the public has the right to know
> about.
Snif. "the right to know about"
IMHO, actually very _few_ companies issue PR around their ASF
involvement, considering the fact that the ASF biosphere is one of a
myriad of tiny (one-person), small (a few people), and then larger
companies employing individuals which contribute to ASF projects, quite
a few of them during company hours.
Just for starters, crosscheck the affiliations listed on
http://www.apache.org/foundation/members.html against a PR News search
tool. And that's only ASF members.
Are the companies not issuing PR lazy asses, or plain dumb? Not willing
to inform the public?
> And they do -- their software :)
Sorry to say, but: big deal. Compare that with the value of the ASF
brand for the donating entity. Lines of code are a side-effect of
developer team-work, and it's much more difficult to grow a team and a
brand than to actually code.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought Open Source Java & XML
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: Corporations and the incubator
Posted by Martin Sebor <se...@roguewave.com>.
Dain Sundstrom wrote:
[...]
> I suggest we add a "For corporations" section to the "Incubator
> Guidelines Documentation" which would contain things, like:
+1 so far. I agree that better, more detailed guidelines would help
organizations or communities not familiar with the process prevent
confusion and avoid misunderstanding.
>
> Don't do a press release. An incubating project is not officially part
> of the ASF, and a press release will imply that the project is part of
> the ASF. This one really makes ASF members angry, so don't go here.
-1
Press releases are a means for companies to announce noteworthy
events to the public. Certainly, donating a substantial code base
and committing to maintaining and typically also supporting that
code base free of charge while at the same time taking on the task
of building a diverse community around the donated project and
shepherding it through the incubation process is a noteworthy
event and can be a significant financial undertaking on the part
of the donating organization that the public has the right to know
about.
If there is a perceived problem with these types of announcements
wouldn't a better approach be for the Apache PRC to anticipate and
proactively try to prevent them, perhaps by offering to help with
the press release? A set of guidelines describing what is and isn't
appropriate for such a press release would be helpful as well.
>
> Don't "just" print some t-shirts with the ASF logo or the incubating
> project's logo. See "Don't do a press release" for reasons.
-1
I see nothing wrong with printing T-shirts or other promotional
items as long as their design is approved by the ASF. Companies
need to be able to make use of their resources to promote the
donated projects in an honest effort to build a community around
them. It doesn't just help the project, it's also free advertising
for the ASF. Since the ASF gets to approve or reject a request
for the use of its trademarks I don't see any risk here.
>
> Do move copyright notices from all source files to the NOTICE file.
+1
I'm not sure exactly what this means but I am certainly in favor
of documenting the process of copyright transfer even better than
it is now.
>
> Do donate to the ASF :)
And they do -- their software :)
Martin
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Re: Corporations and the incubator
Posted by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>.
On Sat, Dec 24, 2005 at 11:05:05AM -0800, Dain Sundstrom wrote:
> On Dec 22, 2005, at 9:19 PM, Ted Leung wrote:
>
> >To us an Apache project is an effort of the ASF. To the majority
> >of people out there, being an Apache project (rightly or wrongly)
> >is branding stamp. You might not like it, but that's how many
> >people treat it. And that's why one of the first things a company
> >wants do when it proposes incubation is issue a press release.
>
> I keep seeing this sentiment repeated on this list and I think we
> should address this concern directly.
+1.
> I've dealt with a few companies involved with projects being
> incubated, and everyone of them was very concerned about doing the
> right thing. The last thing they want to do is anger the ASF right
> when they are getting involved. The problem I have found is that
> they are just not familiar with the incubator, and make bad
> assumption.
Yep, that often seems to be the case.
> I bet that if we let the corporations know the "Dos and
> Don'ts" of working with the incubator, they will be followed (at
> least more often then they are now :)
I bet this bet is the very mistake we've made in the past.
> I suggest we add a "For corporations" section to the "Incubator
> Guidelines Documentation"
that could make sense.
> which would contain things, like:
>
> Don't do a press release. An incubating project is not officially
> part of the ASF, and a press release will imply that the project is
> part of the ASF. This one really makes ASF members angry, so don't
> go here.
>
> Don't "just" print some t-shirts with the ASF logo or the incubating
> project's logo. See "Don't do a press release" for reasons.
>
> Do move copyright notices from all source files to the NOTICE file.
>
> Do donate to the ASF :)
>
> I'm sure there are many more.
>
> What do you think?
I've been mulling on this for some time. I don't know how to phrase this
just yet. But since you asked, I will try anyway.
I think it is a pipe dream that having things like lots of checklists,
lots of process documentation, ISO 2000-compliant processes (FWIW,
ISO 2000 and the ASF don't mesh well, we are based on self-driven
volunteers not on management or top down process monitoring), or anything
like that is ever going to address this kind of concern.
The ASF is not like a corporation and its processes are not like those of
a corporation. Corporations that want to be part of the open source community
need to change a whole lot.
This documentation should be a little more like:
"""The below advice is for technical managers, project managers, PR staff,
quality assurance staff, marketing staff, and people in other kinds of
corperate roles who will be involved with the open sourcing of a corporate
project through the ASF.
To understand the incubation process you should take a look at a few
years of open source development and incubation history at the ASF. Read
all of the documentation on http://www.apache.org/, in particular the
'How things work' documentation. Read all of the documentation on
http://incubator.apache.org/. Understand that this documentation is and
always will be behind on actual practice. Read all of the email from the
general@jakarta.apache.org mailing list archives that has to do with
the incubation of the Tapestry project. Read most of the email from the
general@incubator.apache.org archives. Pay attention to some of the
"process threads". Make a case study of one or two projects that
graduated successfully (I recommend looking at SpamAssassin, a mature
open source project that proceeded through the incubation process very
successfully), read their dev-list archives as well (both before they came
to the ASF, during incubation, and afterwards).
If you are new to open source community development in the apache way
(hint: its likely that you are), be prepared to spend a full work week
reading about this stuff, thinking about it, etc. You will have questions
to which you can't find the answer. Send e-mail to
general@incubator.apache.org with your question. You will likely receive
several answers, often not completely compatible. Get used to this.
If you are somewhat new to open source in general, also read at least
* "the cathedral and the bazaar" by Eric S. Raymond
* "Open Source Licensing" by Lawrence Rosen
* "the cluetrain manifesto" by a variety of authors
* "Subversion Version Control : Using the Subversion Version Control
System in Development Projects" by William Nagel
I'll also recommend watching the movie "FUD". Watch it together with all of
your collegues and discuss it afterwards.
these sources will contain a variety of details which may be a lot more
technical than you're used to and/or far more materials which are not so
close to your day job at your corporation. Get used to this too. To
continue to be productive at your job with respect to this to-be-open-source
project, you will need to understand "how open source works", which involves
understanding the moral principles underlying it, its chaotic process and
work environment. You will most likely need to get used to using some
"programmer tools", including SVN and Jira.
Be prepared to embark on a personal path down the open source road that will
take you several months to start. Most likely, you'll try to be walking it for
the rest of your life if you make it that far.
If you're in charge of your corporate open source efforts, you'll understand
and recognize that all of the above is going to take your staff many many hours
over the course a several months, and has the possibility of resulting in some
radical changes to your corporate processes. Yup.
"""
- LSD
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