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Posted to dev@forrest.apache.org by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org> on 2002/10/25 17:53:28 UTC
New Apache XML Site! :-)
I'm happy to inform you that I just committed the new version of the xml
site in CVS.
If there are any problems, please contact
forrest-dev@xml.apache.org
This will make us have better graphics, automatic PDF creation, faster
site, and most of all better bandwidth usage.
Bandwidth is not free.
As such, I encourage all xml projects to evaluate Forrest in this
regard, and think about keeping the site sources in their project CVS.
If you decide to use Forrest we will be more than happy to help and to
give you a hand in the conversion process.
-o-
I have moved some projects under "Hibernated Projects".
If there are any objections, and to add information about your project
in the main page (since not all projects are there yet, but only on the
left links), don't hesitate to do it yourself.
Get xml-site from CVS, change the sources, build the docs and commit the
changes. They will be picked up in the next cron job run.
To use Forrest, install it as described here* , cd in the directory of
the project and run "forrest". For the xml-site module, then copy the
results of ./build/site in ./targets and commit changes. The sources are
in ./src/documentation .
*[http://xml.apache.org/forrest/your-project.html]
-o-
Thank you :-)
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Steven Noels wrote:
> Bert Van Kets wrote:
>
>> I just tested with NS4.79 on Win2K Server and had no problems.
>
>
> Under Linux (and other Unixes?), it is possible to use some pages as a
> browser crasher with NS4+. David can confirm this.
I think it's the javascript for the snail trail on top.
Let's just remove it for now if it stops the crashs.
> I agree with your position that the NS4 version should not be visually
> identical, but we cannot afford to host a browser-crashing version of a
> site on apache.org
>
> Maybe we should do some more formal browsertesting. I have a Netscape 4
> on Linux to offer (David too, I presume) - what we might need is some
> other Unix-dialects (Solaris, Irix and HP/UX) and Macs, I guess.
Well, we had already done the testing but I agree that it should be
formailzed better.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Bert Van Kets wrote:
> Why is the breadcrum not created Server Side? As there is no
> interactivity in this I don't see why it should be generated browser
side.
Because nobody has done it yet ;-)
I'd be more than happy to see it server-side, as it has been written
already many times on this list.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Bert Van Kets <be...@vankets.com>.
Why is the breadcrum not created Server Side? As there is no interactivity
in this I don't see why it should be generated browser side.
Moreover it adds another http request of a pretty large file (includes the
Apache license and a LOT of comments)
Bert
At 20:33 28/10/2002 +1100, you wrote:
>On Mon, Oct 28, 2002 at 10:15:01AM +0100, Bert Van Kets wrote:
> > Can you tell me what pages are browser crashers?? I can take this up with
> > some CSS gurus I know.
>
>Someone posted this to cocoon-dev:
>
>http://css.nu/pointers/bugs-nn.html
>
>We really need stats on 4.x usage for xml.apache.org to make a good
>judgement.
>
>--Jeff
>
>
> > Bert
Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Bert Van Kets <be...@vankets.com>.
Got ye! ;-)
What about the trial version of Webtrends? That is, if you are doing a
single run of course? Otherwise it would be too expensive.
It supports gziped log files on ftp.
Bert
At 10:45 28/10/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>>>I'll try and make a browser usage analysis for the month of september. I
>>>would be using analog or webalizer - does anyone else has killer tips
>>>for log analyzers?
>
>we're talking about 1.5 GB of gzipped logfiles for the month of september
>alone
>
>grep could do the job, but I plan on doing that log analysis only once, so
>I need a more comprehensive tool than grep :-)
>
></Steven>
>--
>Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
>Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
>stevenn@outerthought.org stevenn@apache.org
Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
>> I'll try and make a browser usage analysis for the month of september.
>> I would be using analog or webalizer - does anyone else has killer
>> tips for log analyzers?
we're talking about 1.5 GB of gzipped logfiles for the month of
september alone
grep could do the job, but I plan on doing that log analysis only once,
so I need a more comprehensive tool than grep :-)
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
stevenn@outerthought.org stevenn@apache.org
Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Bert Van Kets <be...@vankets.com>.
grep?
Bert
At 10:34 28/10/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>Jeff Turner wrote:
>
>>We really need stats on 4.x usage for xml.apache.org to make a good
>>judgement.
>
>I'll try and make a browser usage analysis for the month of september. I
>would be using analog or webalizer - does anyone else has killer tips for
>log analyzers?
>
></Steven>
>--
>Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
>Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
>stevenn@outerthought.org stevenn@apache.org
Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
David Crossley wrote:
> As with all statistics, we need to treat them with care.
>
> Perhaps it would be better if we each analysed the September
> log files from our own webservers and pooled the results.
>
> I think it would be dangerous to base any decision upon
> one day from www.apache.org site, especially when Forrest
> aims to have broader scope.
Of course, but Apache logs seem like the correct target audience to me.
The idea _is_ to support Apache websites amongst others, not?
That being said, here are some browser stats from our .org website -
oktober until now:
Program started at Tue-29-Oct-2002 04:04.
Analysed requests from Tue-01-Oct-2002 00:00 to Tue-29-Oct-2002 03:48
(28.16 days).
Successful requests: 43,687
Average successful requests per day: 1,551
Successful requests for pages: 5,682
Average successful requests for pages per day: 201
Failed requests: 839
Redirected requests: 1,255
Distinct files requested: 125
Distinct hosts served: 1,387
Unwanted logfile entries: 8,191
Data transferred: 116.535 megabytes
Average data transferred per day: 4.138 megabytes
no.: reqs: pages: browser
---: -----: -----: -------
1: 31151: 2644: MSIE
: 20691: 1754: MSIE/6
: 10326: 869: MSIE/5
: 134: 21: MSIE/4
2: 1343: 1343: Java1.4.0_01-ea
3: 6062: 677: Mozilla
: 5725: 635: Mozilla/1
: 250: 23: Mozilla/0
4: 820: 383: Googlebot
: 820: 383: Googlebot/2
5: 1255: 116: Netscape
: 675: 81: Netscape/4
: 572: 35: Netscape/6
6: 520: 100: Netscape (compatible)
7: 806: 78: Galeon
: 806: 78: Galeon/1
8: 459: 67: Konqueror
: 459: 67: Konqueror/3
9: 437: 55: Opera
: 404: 52: Opera/6
: 33: 3: Opera/5
10: 86: 21: TurnitinBot
: 86: 21: TurnitinBot/1
11: 51: 17: FAST-WebCrawler
: 51: 17: FAST-WebCrawler/3
12: 22: 17: Internet Explore 5.x
13: 75: 15: MarcoPolo
14: 50: 15: polybot
: 50: 15: polybot/1
15: 74: 15: Xenu Link Sleuth 1.2d
16: 33: 13: larbin_2.6.2 larbin2.6.2@unspecified.mail
17: 11: 11: Java1.3.1
18: 56: 10: ia_archiver
19: 17: 8: larbin_2.6.2 viktor@nagytestver.hu
20: 72: 8: MSProxy
: 72: 8: MSProxy/2
: 201: 55: [not listed: 37 browsers]
Gee - that's much less traffic than apache.org :-)
Java1.4.0_01-ea is me stresstesting using JMeter, so that one doesn't
count. Netscape 4 comes in at approx. 1.6%. Unfortunately, for ot.net, I
have no browser stats available.
If I find a nice way of running an entire month of loganalysis on
Daedalus, I'll post again.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
stevenn@outerthought.org stevenn@apache.org
New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>.
As with all statistics, we need to treat them with care.
Perhaps it would be better if we each analysed the September
log files from our own webservers and pooled the results.
I think it would be dangerous to base any decision upon
one day from www.apache.org site, especially when Forrest
aims to have broader scope.
...
Steven Noels wrote:
> Steven Noels wrote:
> > Jeff Turner wrote:
> >
> >> We really need stats on 4.x usage for xml.apache.org to make a good
> >> judgement.
> >
> >
> > I'll try and make a browser usage analysis for the month of september. I
> > would be using analog or webalizer - does anyone else has killer tips
> > for log analyzers?
> >
> > </Steven>
>
> I put up an analysed log of 1 day (3.868.269 requests, 271.678
> gigabytes) on http://www.apache.org/~stevenn/browserstats/
>
> I'm not a browser User Agent dictionary, it seems to me that the first
> non-IE, probably-dated browser is identified by "Mozilla/3.01
> (compatible;)", totaling 2.11% of that day. And Mozilla at 1.26% :-(
>
> OK, that's one day, and due to the sheer size of these logfiles and the
> current load-issues of daedalus I'm reluctant to run it across an entire
> month's worth of logs, but this already learns us something.
>
> The '10%' of older browsers on apache.org has been an urban city legend,
> IMO.
Careful, they might be hidden in the grey 50% part.
I think if we added up all the 0.02% entries for
older browsers then we would get up to 10%
Anyway, what decision are wanting to make?
--David
Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Stefan Bodewig wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Oct 2002, Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>
>>Since they want lynx, I suppose they would want NS4 too.
>
>
> Not sure about "them", but lynx is *the* browser for blind or visually
> handicapped people, so making a site work for lynx means you are not
> closing out people who don't have the choice to simply upgrade their
> browser. NS4 users could be told to upgrade ...
Ok, makes sense.
Point taken.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 30 Oct 2002, Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
> Since they want lynx, I suppose they would want NS4 too.
Not sure about "them", but lynx is *the* browser for blind or visually
handicapped people, so making a site work for lynx means you are not
closing out people who don't have the choice to simply upgrade their
browser. NS4 users could be told to upgrade ...
Stefan
Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Ugo Cei <u....@cbim.it>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> "So we should cater for *all* browsers, regardless of the %."
>
> Since they want lynx, I suppose they would want NS4 too.
NS4 is no problem, just use:
<style media="screen" type="text/css">@import "style.css";</style>
and NS4 (and IE4 too) will happily ignore all of your CSS and display
the page just like lynx does. Pure text and images, user-specified
fonts. If you take care to move the navigation at the end of the HTML
page, you're also being friendly to screen readers and search engine bots.
Ugo
--
Ugo Cei - http://www.beblogging.com/blog/
Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Bert Van Kets wrote:
> At 15:26 30/10/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>
>> Jeff Turner wrote:
>>
>>> We really need stats on 4.x usage for xml.apache.org to make a good
>>> judgement.
>>
>>
>> In site-dev@apache.org they said that the pages *must* be easily
>> viewable in lynx (text browser).
>>
>> So we should cater for *all* browsers, regardless of the %.
>
> Lynx has nothing to do with the problems with Netscape 4.x. To be able
> to view html in Lynx you must make sure all images have alt tags and
> that the structure of the page is ok (among other things). Lynx skips
> CSS entirely. With Netscape 4.x you are very much restricted in the use
> of CSS and even some html tags.
I talked about lynx not because it has the same problems of Netscape,
but because it has been requested that we support it even if it has even
less share than Netscape.
> It's an entirely different story!
"So we should cater for *all* browsers, regardless of the %."
Since they want lynx, I suppose they would want NS4 too.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Bert Van Kets <be...@vankets.com>.
At 15:26 30/10/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>Jeff Turner wrote:
>
>>We really need stats on 4.x usage for xml.apache.org to make a good
>>judgement.
>
>In site-dev@apache.org they said that the pages *must* be easily viewable
>in lynx (text browser).
>
>So we should cater for *all* browsers, regardless of the %.
Lynx has nothing to do with the problems with Netscape 4.x. To be able to
view html in Lynx you must make sure all images have alt tags and that the
structure of the page is ok (among other things). Lynx skips CSS
entirely. With Netscape 4.x you are very much restricted in the use of CSS
and even some html tags. It's an entirely different story!
Bert
>--
>Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
> - verba volant, scripta manent -
> (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: New Apache XML Site! :-) [warning: 100K attachment]
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>> We really need stats on 4.x usage for xml.apache.org to make a good
>> judgement.
>
>
> In site-dev@apache.org they said that the pages *must* be easily
> viewable in lynx (text browser).
>
> So we should cater for *all* browsers, regardless of the %.
I must say Lynx does a very decent job showing XHTML+CSS (attached,
sorry for the lowbandwidth users - screenshots of
http://cocoon.iguanacharlie.com/). 'Viewable' doesn't mean identical IMO.
So if NS falls below a certain unmeasurable margin, I'm ready to change
my thoughts on this. That page doesn't look terrific under NS4/Linux,
however - so don't start cheering yet, CSS-zealots ;-)
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
stevenn@outerthought.org stevenn@apache.org
Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Jeff Turner wrote:
> We really need stats on 4.x usage for xml.apache.org to make a good
> judgement.
In site-dev@apache.org they said that the pages *must* be easily
viewable in lynx (text browser).
So we should cater for *all* browsers, regardless of the %.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New site stats
Posted by Vadim Gritsenko <va...@verizon.net>.
Jeff Turner wrote:
>On Fri, Nov 08, 2002 at 07:59:29PM -0500, Vadim Gritsenko wrote:
>
>
...
>>URL for the page is:
>> http://www.apache.org/~vgritsenko/stats/index.html
>>
>>
>
>Very nice :)
>
>
>
>>Images are updated daily (and some of them - weekly), at night. Site is
>>statically generated using Forrest.
>>
>>
>
>Are the charts generated by Cocoon too?
>
Charts are generated from the SVG using Batik and shell script. I was
not sure that infrastructure@ won't jump on me if i to regenerate the
whole site.
OTOH, regeneration of the whole site allows to brings much more
potential: add tables with actual figures, etc.
Vadim
>--Jeff
>
>
>
>>Please take a look and send your suggestions, opinions, flames.
>>
>>
>>Regards,
>>Vadim
>>
>>
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New site stats
Posted by Jeff Turner <je...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Nov 08, 2002 at 07:59:29PM -0500, Vadim Gritsenko wrote:
> Hi Forresters,
>
> We discussed a bit (with Steven) about building apache
> projects/hosts/etc stats, which is one of the tasks for the Forrest, so
> I guess this announcement is not completely offtopic on this list.
>
> I'd like to announce a page I put together which to show off some of the
> stats which I was able to extract from the log files (with minimum
> memory consumption). These stats in no sence are complete or correct,
> but an attemp to build complete and correct stats.
>
> URL for the page is:
> http://www.apache.org/~vgritsenko/stats/index.html
Very nice :)
> Images are updated daily (and some of them - weekly), at night. Site is
> statically generated using Forrest.
Are the charts generated by Cocoon too?
--Jeff
> Please take a look and send your suggestions, opinions, flames.
>
>
> Regards,
> Vadim
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New site stats
Posted by Vadim Gritsenko <va...@verizon.net>.
David Crossley wrote:
>Vadim Gritsenko wrote:
>
>
>>Hi Forresters,
>>
>>We discussed a bit (with Steven) about building apache
>>projects/hosts/etc stats, which is one of the tasks for the Forrest, so
>>I guess this announcement is not completely offtopic on this list.
>>
>>I'd like to announce a page I put together which to show off some of the
>>stats which I was able to extract from the log files (with minimum
>>memory consumption). These stats in no sence are complete or correct,
>>but an attemp to build complete and correct stats.
>>
>>
>
>Brilliant stuff Vadim.
>
>
>
>>URL for the page is:
>> http://www.apache.org/~vgritsenko/stats/index.html
>>
>>Images are updated daily (and some of them - weekly), at night. Site is
>>statically generated using Forrest.
>>
>>Please take a look and send your suggestions, opinions, flames.
>>
>>
>
>I would like the Warning to be extended to say something like:
>"As with any statistics, you must take care with interpretation."
>
:)
>Is it possible while the stats are being generated, that
>some other information can be accumulated and stored as daily
>summaries? e.g. project downloads.
>
Yes.
>There was some discussion on this in Forrest's early days
>and a DTD was partially developed.
>
I see the main problem now is to cleanup/check quality of the numbers
generated, and to discuss what kind of data to be extracted in addition
to whatever we have now, and to decide what other grpahs to generate.
Vadim
> Here is one pointer
> Graph data
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=forrest-dev&m=101432422003463
>
>--David
>
>
>
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New site stats
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>.
Vadim Gritsenko wrote:
> Hi Forresters,
>
> We discussed a bit (with Steven) about building apache
> projects/hosts/etc stats, which is one of the tasks for the Forrest, so
> I guess this announcement is not completely offtopic on this list.
>
> I'd like to announce a page I put together which to show off some of the
> stats which I was able to extract from the log files (with minimum
> memory consumption). These stats in no sence are complete or correct,
> but an attemp to build complete and correct stats.
Brilliant stuff Vadim.
> URL for the page is:
> http://www.apache.org/~vgritsenko/stats/index.html
>
> Images are updated daily (and some of them - weekly), at night. Site is
> statically generated using Forrest.
>
> Please take a look and send your suggestions, opinions, flames.
I would like the Warning to be extended to say something like:
"As with any statistics, you must take care with interpretation."
Is it possible while the stats are being generated, that
some other information can be accumulated and stored as daily
summaries? e.g. project downloads.
There was some discussion on this in Forrest's early days
and a DTD was partially developed. Here is one pointer
Graph data
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=forrest-dev&m=101432422003463
--David
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New site stats
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Vadim Gritsenko wrote:
> Hi Forresters,
>
> We discussed a bit (with Steven) about building apache
> projects/hosts/etc stats, which is one of the tasks for the Forrest, so
> I guess this announcement is not completely offtopic on this list.
>
> I'd like to announce a page I put together which to show off some of the
> stats which I was able to extract from the log files (with minimum
> memory consumption). These stats in no sence are complete or correct,
> but an attemp to build complete and correct stats.
>
> URL for the page is:
> http://www.apache.org/~vgritsenko/stats/index.html
>
> Images are updated daily (and some of them - weekly), at night. Site is
> statically generated using Forrest.
>
> Please take a look and send your suggestions, opinions, flames.
I *LOVE* it!
I *LOVE* it!
I *LOVE* it!
I'm forwarding this to community@ right away.
--
Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New site stats
Posted by Vadim Gritsenko <va...@verizon.net>.
Steven Noels wrote:
> Vadim Gritsenko wrote:
>
>> Hi Forresters,
>>
>> We discussed a bit (with Steven) about building apache
>> projects/hosts/etc stats, which is one of the tasks for the Forrest,
>> so I guess this announcement is not completely offtopic on this list.
>
>
> I don't feel like I should be credited, since you did all the hard work.
>
> You kick *ss, Vadim - thanks for putting this up. Could the sources
> for this application be made part of Forrest, or at least some common
> infrastructure? That way, we can take a look & augment.
The code sucks badly atm, and there are bugs in the script (like project
"icons"), which has to be fixed... Written in Perl (thanks to my
girlfriend for the exaplanations of the perl syntax and data
structures!). The main part is:
http://www.apache.org/~vgritsenko/stats/log-analyzer-daily.pl
Output is:
http://www.apache.org/~vgritsenko/stats/day-2002-11-08.txt
If somebody wants to tweak SVGs:
http://www.apache.org/~vgritsenko/stats/pie-daily-projects-requests.svg
http://www.apache.org/~vgritsenko/stats/trend-daily-projects-requests.svg
> I'm aware of the fact that these scripts need to run on Daedalus, but
> at least three of us have access, too.
>
> Again, many thanks. Can we call you Lord of Users and Stats from now?
>
> A toothbrush medal for private Vadim!
:)
Vadim
> </Steven>
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New site stats
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Vadim Gritsenko wrote:
> Hi Forresters,
>
> We discussed a bit (with Steven) about building apache
> projects/hosts/etc stats, which is one of the tasks for the Forrest, so
> I guess this announcement is not completely offtopic on this list.
I don't feel like I should be credited, since you did all the hard work.
You kick *ss, Vadim - thanks for putting this up. Could the sources for
this application be made part of Forrest, or at least some common
infrastructure? That way, we can take a look & augment.
I'm aware of the fact that these scripts need to run on Daedalus, but at
least three of us have access, too.
Again, many thanks. Can we call you Lord of Users and Stats from now?
A toothbrush medal for private Vadim!
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
stevenn@outerthought.org stevenn@apache.org
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New site stats
Posted by Nick Chalko <ni...@chalko.com>.
>
> URL for the page is:
> http://www.apache.org/~vgritsenko/stats/index.html
Nice looking page.
I noticed a Forrest quirk
When I click on the stabe the Vladim's image moves.
It appears that the Breadcrumbs are effecting the placemnet of the
project logo.
R,
Nick
ps
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.2b) Gecko/20021016
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New site stats
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>.
Ivelin Ivanov wrote:
>
> Good stuff. This should be a publicly available page (off of the main site)
> for anyone to look.
As Vadim said, it has been on the Forrest task list for a long
time, to do this sort of thing and more. This is one of the
first community resources for Forrest to deliver, apart from the
brilliant document generation facilities.
I presume that the empty directory at
http://xml.apache.org/forrest/community/
is where this stuff belongs. So i am adding a basic page there
as we speak.
Thanks Vadim, it is great to see this. Dreams come true.
--David
> I am surprise to find 2 things:
>
> 1) traffic from xml. vs jakarta. is proportionate to the number of hits.
> Something which used to be out of balanse. Is this due to the lightweight
> nature of Forrest?
>
> 2) Cocoon is almost as popular as Struts. Why didn't I see Turbine or
> Velocity. Thought they are much more popular than Cocoon?
>
>
> Ivlein
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Vadim Gritsenko" <va...@verizon.net>
> To: <fo...@xml.apache.org>
> Cc: "Steven Noels" <st...@outerthought.org>
> Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 6:59 PM
> Subject: [ANNOUNCE] New site stats
>
>
> > Hi Forresters,
> >
> > We discussed a bit (with Steven) about building apache
> > projects/hosts/etc stats, which is one of the tasks for the Forrest, so
> > I guess this announcement is not completely offtopic on this list.
> >
> > I'd like to announce a page I put together which to show off some of the
> > stats which I was able to extract from the log files (with minimum
> > memory consumption). These stats in no sence are complete or correct,
> > but an attemp to build complete and correct stats.
> >
> > URL for the page is:
> > http://www.apache.org/~vgritsenko/stats/index.html
> >
> > Images are updated daily (and some of them - weekly), at night. Site is
> > statically generated using Forrest.
> >
> > Please take a look and send your suggestions, opinions, flames.
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> > Vadim
> >
> >
> >
> > Steven Noels wrote:
> >
> > > Vadim Gritsenko wrote:
> > >
> > > > This also can be done. My question is is this interesting to forrest
> > > > community or somebody else (you said , Sam?)...... or it's better for
> > > > me to drop all this nonsense and go and work on Cocoon bugs? :)
> > >
> > > It was one of the original plans for Forrest, to put up some stats up
> > > the different projects (downloads, mails sent on the lists, etc etc)
> > >
> > > What would be good is to have a low impact way of extracting whatever
> > > kind of data we can make sense of from the server logs (like
> > > user agents, top downloads, busiest website, etc etc).
> > >
> > > Now that we start playing with the idea of going independent with
> > > cocoon.apache.org, that should take into account aggregating several
> > > logs, too... Hmmmpff.
> > >
> > > I don't know ATM, maybe we should just take your data as a test stream
> > > and see how we can work with it in Forrest (for the xml.apache.org
> > > front site). And if people like it, they will add more streams and
> > > we'll finally have that 'Apache project dashboard' displaying all
> > > kinds of interesting (and other) data.
> > >
> > > My point was that finite steps are difficult to aggregate starting
> > > from XML, so maybe cumulative would be better. This all depends on the
> > > frequency of sampling of course - for weekly stats, you still can show
> > > them in a trend chart and make sense of it.
> > >
> > > But we'd better move this to forrest-dev so that others can tell their
> > > opinion too.
> > >
> > > </Steven>
> >
> >
>
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New site stats
Posted by Vadim Gritsenko <va...@verizon.net>.
Ivelin Ivanov wrote:
>Good stuff. This should be a publicly available page (off of the main site)
>for anyone to look.
>
>I am surprise to find 2 things:
>
>1) traffic from xml. vs jakarta. is proportionate to the number of hits.
>Something which used to be out of balanse. Is this due to the lightweight
>nature of Forrest?
>
>2) Cocoon is almost as popular as Struts. Why didn't I see Turbine or
>Velocity. Thought they are much more popular than Cocoon?
>
They did not fit into the graphs. I decided to show only top performers
- to have more readable graphs.
Whole data can be shown in html tables.
Vadim
>Ivlein
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Vadim Gritsenko" <va...@verizon.net>
>To: <fo...@xml.apache.org>
>Cc: "Steven Noels" <st...@outerthought.org>
>Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 6:59 PM
>Subject: [ANNOUNCE] New site stats
>
>
>
>
>>Hi Forresters,
>>
>>We discussed a bit (with Steven) about building apache
>>projects/hosts/etc stats, which is one of the tasks for the Forrest, so
>>I guess this announcement is not completely offtopic on this list.
>>
>>I'd like to announce a page I put together which to show off some of the
>>stats which I was able to extract from the log files (with minimum
>>memory consumption). These stats in no sence are complete or correct,
>>but an attemp to build complete and correct stats.
>>
>>URL for the page is:
>> http://www.apache.org/~vgritsenko/stats/index.html
>>
>>Images are updated daily (and some of them - weekly), at night. Site is
>>statically generated using Forrest.
>>
>>Please take a look and send your suggestions, opinions, flames.
>>
>>
>>Regards,
>>Vadim
>>
>>
>>
>>Steven Noels wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Vadim Gritsenko wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>This also can be done. My question is is this interesting to forrest
>>>>community or somebody else (you said , Sam?)...... or it's better for
>>>>me to drop all this nonsense and go and work on Cocoon bugs? :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>It was one of the original plans for Forrest, to put up some stats up
>>>the different projects (downloads, mails sent on the lists, etc etc)
>>>
>>>What would be good is to have a low impact way of extracting whatever
>>>kind of data we can make sense of from the server logs (like
>>>user agents, top downloads, busiest website, etc etc).
>>>
>>>Now that we start playing with the idea of going independent with
>>>cocoon.apache.org, that should take into account aggregating several
>>>logs, too... Hmmmpff.
>>>
>>>I don't know ATM, maybe we should just take your data as a test stream
>>>and see how we can work with it in Forrest (for the xml.apache.org
>>>front site). And if people like it, they will add more streams and
>>>we'll finally have that 'Apache project dashboard' displaying all
>>>kinds of interesting (and other) data.
>>>
>>>My point was that finite steps are difficult to aggregate starting
>>>from XML, so maybe cumulative would be better. This all depends on the
>>>frequency of sampling of course - for weekly stats, you still can show
>>>them in a trend chart and make sense of it.
>>>
>>>But we'd better move this to forrest-dev so that others can tell their
>>>opinion too.
>>>
>>></Steven>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Re: [ANNOUNCE] New site stats
Posted by Ivelin Ivanov <iv...@apache.org>.
Good stuff. This should be a publicly available page (off of the main site)
for anyone to look.
I am surprise to find 2 things:
1) traffic from xml. vs jakarta. is proportionate to the number of hits.
Something which used to be out of balanse. Is this due to the lightweight
nature of Forrest?
2) Cocoon is almost as popular as Struts. Why didn't I see Turbine or
Velocity. Thought they are much more popular than Cocoon?
Ivlein
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vadim Gritsenko" <va...@verizon.net>
To: <fo...@xml.apache.org>
Cc: "Steven Noels" <st...@outerthought.org>
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 6:59 PM
Subject: [ANNOUNCE] New site stats
> Hi Forresters,
>
> We discussed a bit (with Steven) about building apache
> projects/hosts/etc stats, which is one of the tasks for the Forrest, so
> I guess this announcement is not completely offtopic on this list.
>
> I'd like to announce a page I put together which to show off some of the
> stats which I was able to extract from the log files (with minimum
> memory consumption). These stats in no sence are complete or correct,
> but an attemp to build complete and correct stats.
>
> URL for the page is:
> http://www.apache.org/~vgritsenko/stats/index.html
>
> Images are updated daily (and some of them - weekly), at night. Site is
> statically generated using Forrest.
>
> Please take a look and send your suggestions, opinions, flames.
>
>
> Regards,
> Vadim
>
>
>
> Steven Noels wrote:
>
> > Vadim Gritsenko wrote:
> >
> > > This also can be done. My question is is this interesting to forrest
> > > community or somebody else (you said , Sam?)...... or it's better for
> > > me to drop all this nonsense and go and work on Cocoon bugs? :)
> >
> > It was one of the original plans for Forrest, to put up some stats up
> > the different projects (downloads, mails sent on the lists, etc etc)
> >
> > What would be good is to have a low impact way of extracting whatever
> > kind of data we can make sense of from the server logs (like
> > user agents, top downloads, busiest website, etc etc).
> >
> > Now that we start playing with the idea of going independent with
> > cocoon.apache.org, that should take into account aggregating several
> > logs, too... Hmmmpff.
> >
> > I don't know ATM, maybe we should just take your data as a test stream
> > and see how we can work with it in Forrest (for the xml.apache.org
> > front site). And if people like it, they will add more streams and
> > we'll finally have that 'Apache project dashboard' displaying all
> > kinds of interesting (and other) data.
> >
> > My point was that finite steps are difficult to aggregate starting
> > from XML, so maybe cumulative would be better. This all depends on the
> > frequency of sampling of course - for weekly stats, you still can show
> > them in a trend chart and make sense of it.
> >
> > But we'd better move this to forrest-dev so that others can tell their
> > opinion too.
> >
> > </Steven>
>
>
[ANNOUNCE] New site stats
Posted by Vadim Gritsenko <va...@verizon.net>.
Hi Forresters,
We discussed a bit (with Steven) about building apache
projects/hosts/etc stats, which is one of the tasks for the Forrest, so
I guess this announcement is not completely offtopic on this list.
I'd like to announce a page I put together which to show off some of the
stats which I was able to extract from the log files (with minimum
memory consumption). These stats in no sence are complete or correct,
but an attemp to build complete and correct stats.
URL for the page is:
http://www.apache.org/~vgritsenko/stats/index.html
Images are updated daily (and some of them - weekly), at night. Site is
statically generated using Forrest.
Please take a look and send your suggestions, opinions, flames.
Regards,
Vadim
Steven Noels wrote:
> Vadim Gritsenko wrote:
>
> > This also can be done. My question is is this interesting to forrest
> > community or somebody else (you said , Sam?)...... or it's better for
> > me to drop all this nonsense and go and work on Cocoon bugs? :)
>
> It was one of the original plans for Forrest, to put up some stats up
> the different projects (downloads, mails sent on the lists, etc etc)
>
> What would be good is to have a low impact way of extracting whatever
> kind of data we can make sense of from the server logs (like
> user agents, top downloads, busiest website, etc etc).
>
> Now that we start playing with the idea of going independent with
> cocoon.apache.org, that should take into account aggregating several
> logs, too... Hmmmpff.
>
> I don't know ATM, maybe we should just take your data as a test stream
> and see how we can work with it in Forrest (for the xml.apache.org
> front site). And if people like it, they will add more streams and
> we'll finally have that 'Apache project dashboard' displaying all
> kinds of interesting (and other) data.
>
> My point was that finite steps are difficult to aggregate starting
> from XML, so maybe cumulative would be better. This all depends on the
> frequency of sampling of course - for weekly stats, you still can show
> them in a trend chart and make sense of it.
>
> But we'd better move this to forrest-dev so that others can tell their
> opinion too.
>
> </Steven>
Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Vadim Gritsenko <va...@verizon.net>.
Steven Noels wrote:
> Steven Noels wrote:
>
>> Jeff Turner wrote:
>>
>>> We really need stats on 4.x usage for xml.apache.org to make a good
>>> judgement.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'll try and make a browser usage analysis for the month of
>> september. I would be using analog or webalizer - does anyone else
>> has killer tips for log analyzers?
>>
>> </Steven>
>
>
> I put up an analysed log of 1 day (3.868.269 requests, 271.678
> gigabytes) on http://www.apache.org/~stevenn/browserstats/
>
> I'm not a browser User Agent dictionary, it seems to me that the first
> non-IE, probably-dated browser is identified by "Mozilla/3.01
> (compatible;)", totaling 2.11% of that day. And Mozilla at 1.26% :-(
Hi Steven,
As you see from the pie chart... It's quite useless to just count unique
browser agents. Without groupings, these statistics do not mean much.
I think all these agents should be grouped into several larger categories:
* MSIE 6.0+
* MSIE 5.5+
* MSIE 5.0+
* MSIE 4.0+
* Older MSIE
Similar groupings can be done for Netscape browsers, and for mozilla
ones (which has lots of different unique user-agents strings).
Then, pie chart will look different, a lot.
What do you think? Do you need some help to work this out?
Vadim
> OK, that's one day, and due to the sheer size of these logfiles and
> the current load-issues of daedalus I'm reluctant to run it across an
> entire month's worth of logs, but this already learns us something.
>
> The '10%' of older browsers on apache.org has been an urban city
> legend, IMO.
>
> </Steven>
Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Steven Noels wrote:
> Jeff Turner wrote:
>
>> We really need stats on 4.x usage for xml.apache.org to make a good
>> judgement.
>
>
> I'll try and make a browser usage analysis for the month of september. I
> would be using analog or webalizer - does anyone else has killer tips
> for log analyzers?
>
> </Steven>
I put up an analysed log of 1 day (3.868.269 requests, 271.678
gigabytes) on http://www.apache.org/~stevenn/browserstats/
I'm not a browser User Agent dictionary, it seems to me that the first
non-IE, probably-dated browser is identified by "Mozilla/3.01
(compatible;)", totaling 2.11% of that day. And Mozilla at 1.26% :-(
OK, that's one day, and due to the sheer size of these logfiles and the
current load-issues of daedalus I'm reluctant to run it across an entire
month's worth of logs, but this already learns us something.
The '10%' of older browsers on apache.org has been an urban city legend,
IMO.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
stevenn@outerthought.org stevenn@apache.org
Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Jeff Turner wrote:
> We really need stats on 4.x usage for xml.apache.org to make a good
> judgement.
I'll try and make a browser usage analysis for the month of september. I
would be using analog or webalizer - does anyone else has killer tips
for log analyzers?
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
stevenn@outerthought.org stevenn@apache.org
Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Jeff Turner <je...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Oct 28, 2002 at 10:15:01AM +0100, Bert Van Kets wrote:
> Can you tell me what pages are browser crashers?? I can take this up with
> some CSS gurus I know.
Someone posted this to cocoon-dev:
http://css.nu/pointers/bugs-nn.html
We really need stats on 4.x usage for xml.apache.org to make a good
judgement.
--Jeff
> Bert
Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Bert Van Kets <be...@vankets.com>.
Can you tell me what pages are browser crashers?? I can take this up with
some CSS gurus I know.
Bert
At 10:11 28/10/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>Bert Van Kets wrote:
>
>>I just tested with NS4.79 on Win2K Server and had no problems.
>
>Under Linux (and other Unixes?), it is possible to use some pages as a
>browser crasher with NS4+. David can confirm this.
>
>I agree with your position that the NS4 version should not be visually
>identical, but we cannot afford to host a browser-crashing version of a
>site on apache.org
>
>Maybe we should do some more formal browsertesting. I have a Netscape 4 on
>Linux to offer (David too, I presume) - what we might need is some other
>Unix-dialects (Solaris, Irix and HP/UX) and Macs, I guess.
>
></Steven>
>--
>Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
>Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
>stevenn@outerthought.org stevenn@apache.org
Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Bert Van Kets wrote:
> I just tested with NS4.79 on Win2K Server and had no problems.
Under Linux (and other Unixes?), it is possible to use some pages as a
browser crasher with NS4+. David can confirm this.
I agree with your position that the NS4 version should not be visually
identical, but we cannot afford to host a browser-crashing version of a
site on apache.org
Maybe we should do some more formal browsertesting. I have a Netscape 4
on Linux to offer (David too, I presume) - what we might need is some
other Unix-dialects (Solaris, Irix and HP/UX) and Macs, I guess.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
stevenn@outerthought.org stevenn@apache.org
Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Bert Van Kets <be...@vankets.com>.
I just tested with NS4.79 on Win2K Server and had no problems.
Bert
At 16:04 25/10/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> >
> > I'm happy to inform you that I just committed the new version of the xml
> > site in CVS.
> >
> > If there are any problems, please contact
> >
> > forrest-dev@xml.apache.org
>
>Looks very nice in Konqueror and is _much_ faster than the former page, but
>Netscape 4.79 (comes with Red Hat 7.3) redirects me to
>http://xml.apache.org/skin/page.css which doesn't exist, so I get a 404 error.
>
>Now what am I going to do for test page with a bazillion .gifs? (just
>kidding -
>I'll find something)
>
>Greg
Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by gr...@apache.org.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> I'm happy to inform you that I just committed the new version of the xml
> site in CVS.
>
> If there are any problems, please contact
>
> forrest-dev@xml.apache.org
Looks very nice in Konqueror and is _much_ faster than the former page, but
Netscape 4.79 (comes with Red Hat 7.3) redirects me to
http://xml.apache.org/skin/page.css which doesn't exist, so I get a 404 error.
Now what am I going to do for test page with a bazillion .gifs? (just kidding -
I'll find something)
Greg
Re: how to update xml-site (Was: New Apache XML Site! :-))
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
dion@multitask.com.au wrote:
> Jeff Turner <je...@apache.org> wrote on 26/10/2002 09:09:52 PM:
>>I think the inevitable flamewar with Jon & co would be rather bad for
>>Forrest's image, because Forrest would probably come off worst. Anakia
>>is faster and smaller than Forrest and does the job of generating
>>jakarta.apache.org just fine.
One of my concerns too.
> Having said all that, there are still lots of us that want it as an
> option. Including as an option to the xdocs formats in Maven.
Glad that Dion appears to be more even-minded ;)
We'll get somewhere!
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
stevenn@outerthought.org stevenn@apache.org
Re: how to update xml-site (Was: New Apache XML Site! :-))
Posted by di...@multitask.com.au.
Jeff Turner <je...@apache.org> wrote on 26/10/2002 09:09:52 PM:
> On Sat, Oct 26, 2002 at 11:44:20AM +0200, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> ...
> > BTW, I'll be basically offline for a week now, so please help the
people
> > at commons and incubator to set up the site if needed.
> >
> > Scott Sanders is helping with the commons one.
> >
> > Also, when the Jakarta site transformation to Forrest DTD is done,
> > someone asked if we could propose it to Jakarta. The initial intention
> > was that we needed the docs at incubator for info on Apache, but given
> > the possibility, why not ask? ;-)
>
> I think the inevitable flamewar with Jon & co would be rather bad for
> Forrest's image, because Forrest would probably come off worst. Anakia
> is faster and smaller than Forrest and does the job of generating
> jakarta.apache.org just fine.
Having said all that, there are still lots of us that want it as an
option. Including as an option to the xdocs formats in Maven.
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work: http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers
Re: how to update xml-site (Was: New Apache XML Site! :-))
Posted by Jeff Turner <je...@apache.org>.
On Sat, Oct 26, 2002 at 11:44:20AM +0200, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
...
> BTW, I'll be basically offline for a week now, so please help the people
> at commons and incubator to set up the site if needed.
>
> Scott Sanders is helping with the commons one.
>
> Also, when the Jakarta site transformation to Forrest DTD is done,
> someone asked if we could propose it to Jakarta. The initial intention
> was that we needed the docs at incubator for info on Apache, but given
> the possibility, why not ask? ;-)
I think the inevitable flamewar with Jon & co would be rather bad for
Forrest's image, because Forrest would probably come off worst. Anakia
is faster and smaller than Forrest and does the job of generating
jakarta.apache.org just fine.
--Jeff
Re: how to update xml-site
Posted by Jeff Turner <je...@apache.org>.
On Sat, Oct 26, 2002 at 10:20:24PM +1000, David Crossley wrote:
...
> > > I know that we have some transformation tools in Forrest scratchpad,
> >
> > Oh? There don't look to be any stylesheets in the scratchpad. Hope I'm
> > not duplicating someone's efforts.
> >
> > --Jeff
>
> The stylesheets are in src/resources/library/...
> They are called from the src/scratchpad/targets/transform-v11.xml
> et al.
Oh okay, that's v1.0 to v1.1. I was talking about transforming the XML
used in most Jakarta projects, which is described at:
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/jakarta-site-tags.html
"The Jakarta-Site module supports a set of XML/XHTML tags which it will
render specially."
Anything in HTML works, plus there's a few extra tags. Probably quite
similar to XHTML 2.
--Jeff
> A lot of effort was put in to do automatic transformation of
> Cocoon xdocs, but it has languished while the DTD v1.1 issues
> were being sorted out, still.
>
> I scoured the archives for where we did the work:
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=forrest-dev&m=102456379811908
>
> I hope that it helps.
> --David
Re: how to update xml-site
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>.
Jeff Turner wrote:
> ODavid Crossley wrote:
> ...
> > Sorry, lost you there. Who is doing the transformation
> > of their xdocs to document-v11.dtd?
>
> I am.. I have a anakia2cocoon.xsl stylesheet that does most of the
> transforms, but as I wrote on commons@apache:
>
> "The xml-site2 files contain <b>, <i>, <hr>, <font>, @valign, @align,
> @size, <h1>, <h2>, etc. I'm not sure why they even bothered with XML."
>
> Converting all that to Forrest's DTD is a PITA :) I'm doing it mainly so
> that Forrest can be a drop-in replacement for the Maven xdoc target.
>
> > I know that we have some transformation tools in Forrest scratchpad,
>
> Oh? There don't look to be any stylesheets in the scratchpad. Hope I'm
> not duplicating someone's efforts.
>
> --Jeff
The stylesheets are in src/resources/library/...
They are called from the src/scratchpad/targets/transform-v11.xml
et al.
A lot of effort was put in to do automatic transformation of
Cocoon xdocs, but it has languished while the DTD v1.1 issues
were being sorted out, still.
I scoured the archives for where we did the work:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=forrest-dev&m=102456379811908
I hope that it helps.
--David
> > but i think that the scratchpad build is still busted.
>
> > --David
> >
>
Re: how to update xml-site
Posted by Jeff Turner <je...@apache.org>.
On Sat, Oct 26, 2002 at 08:47:04PM +1000, David Crossley wrote:
...
> Sorry, lost you there. Who is doing the transformation
> of their xdocs to document-v11.dtd?
I am.. I have a anakia2cocoon.xsl stylesheet that does most of the
transforms, but as I wrote on commons@apache:
"The xml-site2 files contain <b>, <i>, <hr>, <font>, @valign, @align,
@size, <h1>, <h2>, etc. I'm not sure why they even bothered with XML."
Converting all that to Forrest's DTD is a PITA :) I'm doing it mainly so
that Forrest can be a drop-in replacement for the Maven xdoc target.
> I know that we have some transformation tools in Forrest scratchpad,
Oh? There don't look to be any stylesheets in the scratchpad. Hope I'm
not duplicating someone's efforts.
--Jeff
> but i think that the scratchpad build is still busted.
> --David
>
Re: how to update xml-site
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> > Steven Noels wrote:
<snip/>
>
> > I gather that Ken has copied the xml-site/xdocs that we were
> > using temporarily in the xml-forrest cvs. I will go and sync
> > them with the original docs.
>
> I have made some modifications like add a tip on how to use Forrest for
> the site in the Guidelines, fixed a link, and had to make a change to
> Forrest about the search box: it needs a domain name, not a url, and it
> has been broken all the way long these weeks.
>
> Quite startling given the time our site has been up 8-|
>
> Anyway, I will delete the ones in our CVS (sorry David ;-) to eliminate
> possible confusion.
I am already in the middle of removing that copy of
xml-site in Forrest. I recently added some missing mods
to xml-site proper and was just reflecting the few changes.
> > Ken you mentioned earlier that the forrestbot was "broken".
> > Would you please elaborate so that we can help to fix it.
>
> Ruby's bot that copies from CVS to daedalus that is.
> It failed completely to add the images and skin directories, thus
> resulting in the image problem.
So how do we going about getting that cronbot fixed.
> >>It's not because this is a can-do-ocracy that we should do things
> >>without enough consideration...
> >>
> >>Sorry if I seem pissed off, but that's because I'm currently lacking the
> >>time to help you with it, and you preferred going solo anyhow.
> >
> > Well, the rest of us will be here to help. Please pop in
> > if you get some spare moments, if not to "do" then at least
> > to comment.
> >
> > Solo actions are also part of the community. Our job as the
> > community is to put our strength and steering behind them.
>
> :-)
>
> BTW, I'll be basically offline for a week now,
As to the topic of this email ... how is the xml.apache.org
website updated? Does anyone else on forrest-dev know how,
considering that both you and Steven are away? Please give
some tips before you go.
> so please help the people
> at commons and incubator to set up the site if needed.
>
> Scott Sanders is helping with the commons one.
>
> Also, when the Jakarta site transformation to Forrest DTD is done,
> someone asked if we could propose it to Jakarta. The initial intention
> was that we needed the docs at incubator for info on Apache, but given
> the possibility, why not ask? ;-)
Sorry, lost you there. Who is doing the transformation
of their xdocs to document-v11.dtd? I know that we have
some transformation tools in Forrest scratchpad, but i
think that the scratchpad build is still busted.
--David
Re: how to update xml-site (Was: New Apache XML Site! :-))
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
David Crossley wrote:
[...]
> Thanks for your comments Steven. Yes, it was a rash action
> though i suspect that timeliness is good. Would we ever be
> "ready"? The best thing to do now is to get quickly back
> on track.
Also, we are not the content editors, so the site should remain as it
was before.
BTW, we are featured on www.apache.org now! :-D
YATTA!
> I gather that Ken has copied the xml-site/xdocs that we were
> using temporarily in the xml-forrest cvs. I will go and sync
> them with the original docs.
I have made some modifications like add a tip on how to use Forrest for
the site in the Guidelines, fixed a link, and had to make a change to
Forrest about the search box: it needs a domain name, not a url, and it
has been broken all the way long these weeks.
Quite startling given the time our site has been up 8-|
Anyway, I will delete the ones in our CVS (sorry David ;-) to eliminate
possible confusion.
> Ken you mentioned earlier that the forrestbot was "broken".
> Would you please elaborate so that we can help to fix it.
Ruby's bot that copies from CVS to daedalus that is.
It failed completely to add the images and skin directories, thus
resulting in the image problem.
>>It's not because this is a can-do-ocracy that we should do things
>>without enough consideration...
>>
>>Sorry if I seem pissed off, but that's because I'm currently lacking the
>>time to help you with it, and you preferred going solo anyhow.
>
> Well, the rest of us will be here to help. Please pop in
> if you get some spare moments, if not to "do" then at least
> to comment.
>
> Solo actions are also part of the community. Our job as the
> community is to put our strength and steering behind them.
:-)
BTW, I'll be basically offline for a week now, so please help the people
at commons and incubator to set up the site if needed.
Scott Sanders is helping with the commons one.
Also, when the Jakarta site transformation to Forrest DTD is done,
someone asked if we could propose it to Jakarta. The initial intention
was that we needed the docs at incubator for info on Apache, but given
the possibility, why not ask? ;-)
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
how to update xml-site (Was: New Apache XML Site! :-))
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>.
Steven Noels wrote:
> Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> > I'm happy to inform you that I just committed the new version of the
> > xml site in CVS.
>
> Site looks bad - un-committed or un-updated files apparently - I tried
> to cvs update locally on daedalus (you have access there too, Nicola,
> and the website is in /www/xml.apache.org) - to no avail. And no time to
> further investigate :-(
>
> > If there are any problems, please contact
> >
> > forrest-dev@xml.apache.org
>
> Hm. Hmmm.
>
> 1) we did a bad job
> 2) you did a solo job
>
> > This will make us have better graphics, automatic PDF creation,
> > faster site, and most of all better bandwidth usage.
>
> Please let's be modest. In the heat of the reorg discussion, I see many
> people making bold claims and strong statements. The cocoon/forrest
> community is known not to fall into that trap. Let's keep it that way.
> Marketing is OK, but too much eagerness is simply bad publicity.
>
> We are stuck now with a site that looks bad, and is known to be
> generated using Forrest. Also, it seems like you simply copied the
> cleaned-up XML files I prepared once and generated the 'new website' out
> of it.
>
> Prior to doing so, you would as well have consulted the forrest-dev'ers,
> no? Did we contact the different projects prior to republishing to check
> on the accuracy if the common pages... no. Timeliness... no. Just a
> quick and dirty hack based on some source files I committed months ago.
Thanks for your comments Steven. Yes, it was a rash action
though i suspect that timeliness is good. Would we ever be
"ready"? The best thing to do now is to get quickly back
on track.
I gather that Ken has copied the xml-site/xdocs that we were
using temporarily in the xml-forrest cvs. I will go and sync
them with the original docs.
Ken you mentioned earlier that the forrestbot was "broken".
Would you please elaborate so that we can help to fix it.
> It's not because this is a can-do-ocracy that we should do things
> without enough consideration...
>
> Sorry if I seem pissed off, but that's because I'm currently lacking the
> time to help you with it, and you preferred going solo anyhow.
Well, the rest of us will be here to help. Please pop in
if you get some spare moments, if not to "do" then at least
to comment.
Solo actions are also part of the community. Our job as the
community is to put our strength and steering behind them.
--David
Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>.
> > The cron script is broken, and it didn't copy the files.
> > I have copied the missing files manually, all is ok now.
> could you provide us with a copy of that script that cvs-synchonizes
> between icarus & daedalus the xml-site/-forrest module?
One thing I am using for some other sites is a change in the cvs commit
structure so that changes are auto propagated.
I am not sure this is a good idea from a security perspective - but it may
be worth giving something like this a bit of thoughd.
Dw
rough and ready receipe.
1. Make sure that the www docroot is group writable
for the committing developers.
2. Add a line to loginfo along the lines of
www-asemantics.com $CVSROOT/CVSROOT/www_update.sh asemantics.com %s
3. Add a script to CVSROOT 'www_update.sh'.
4. Add the name of the script to
checkoutlist
5. in www_update.sh make sure you *first* do the usual
log_accum.pl/sh, then you detach and do a delayed
cvs update in the docroot.
#!/bin/sh
SITE=$1;shift
$CVSROOT/CVSROOT/log_accum.pl $@
# Need to detachs to allow the lock
# to return
(
sleep 5
cd /usr/local/www/data/$SITE || exit 1
cvs update -P -d
) &
--g9SLTOtl000622.1035840571/mobile.webweaving.org--
X-ReSent-Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:31:58 +0100 (CET)
X-ReSent-From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>
X-ReSent-To: forrest-dev@xml.apache.org, Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>
X-ReSent-Subject: Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
X-ReSent-Message-ID: <Pi...@mobile.webweaving.org>
> > The cron script is broken, and it didn't copy the files.
> > I have copied the missing files manually, all is ok now.
> could you provide us with a copy of that script that cvs-synchonizes
> between icarus & daedalus the xml-site/-forrest module?
One thing I am using for some other sites is a change in the cvs commit
structure so that changes are auto propagated.
I am not sure this is a good idea from a security perspective - but it may
be worth giving something like this a bit of thoughd.
Dw
rough and ready receipe.
1. Make sure that the www docroot is group writable
for the committing developers.
2. Add a line to loginfo along the lines of
www-asemantics.com $CVSROOT/CVSROOT/www_update.sh asemantics.com %s
3. Add a script to CVSROOT 'www_update.sh'.
4. Add the name of the script to
checkoutlist
5. in www_update.sh make sure you *first* do the usual
log_accum.pl/sh, then you detach and do a delayed
cvs update in the docroot.
#!/bin/sh
SITE=$1;shift
$CVSROOT/CVSROOT/log_accum.pl $@
# Need to detachs to allow the lock
# to return
(
sleep 5
cd /usr/local/www/data/$SITE || exit 1
cvs update -P -d
) &
--g9SLTOtl000622.1035840571/mobile.webweaving.org--
--g9SLX1UB000646.1035840786/mobile.webweaving.org--
X-ReSent-Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:36:09 +0100 (CET)
X-ReSent-From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>
X-ReSent-To: forrest-dev@xml.apache.org, Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>
X-ReSent-Subject: Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
X-ReSent-Message-ID: <Pi...@mobile.webweaving.org>
> > The cron script is broken, and it didn't copy the files.
> > I have copied the missing files manually, all is ok now.
> could you provide us with a copy of that script that cvs-synchonizes
> between icarus & daedalus the xml-site/-forrest module?
One thing I am using for some other sites is a change in the cvs commit
structure so that changes are auto propagated.
I am not sure this is a good idea from a security perspective - but it may
be worth giving something like this a bit of thoughd.
Dw
rough and ready receipe.
1. Make sure that the www docroot is group writable
for the committing developers.
2. Add a line to loginfo along the lines of
www-asemantics.com $CVSROOT/CVSROOT/www_update.sh asemantics.com %s
3. Add a script to CVSROOT 'www_update.sh'.
4. Add the name of the script to
checkoutlist
5. in www_update.sh make sure you *first* do the usual
log_accum.pl/sh, then you detach and do a delayed
cvs update in the docroot.
#!/bin/sh
SITE=$1;shift
$CVSROOT/CVSROOT/log_accum.pl $@
# Need to detachs to allow the lock
# to return
(
sleep 5
cd /usr/local/www/data/$SITE || exit 1
cvs update -P -d
) &
--g9SLTOtl000622.1035840571/mobile.webweaving.org--
X-ReSent-Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:31:58 +0100 (CET)
X-ReSent-From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>
X-ReSent-To: forrest-dev@xml.apache.org, Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>
X-ReSent-Subject: Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
X-ReSent-Message-ID: <Pi...@mobile.webweaving.org>
> > The cron script is broken, and it didn't copy the files.
> > I have copied the missing files manually, all is ok now.
> could you provide us with a copy of that script that cvs-synchonizes
> between icarus & daedalus the xml-site/-forrest module?
One thing I am using for some other sites is a change in the cvs commit
structure so that changes are auto propagated.
I am not sure this is a good idea from a security perspective - but it may
be worth giving something like this a bit of thoughd.
Dw
rough and ready receipe.
1. Make sure that the www docroot is group writable
for the committing developers.
2. Add a line to loginfo along the lines of
www-asemantics.com $CVSROOT/CVSROOT/www_update.sh asemantics.com %s
3. Add a script to CVSROOT 'www_update.sh'.
4. Add the name of the script to
checkoutlist
5. in www_update.sh make sure you *first* do the usual
log_accum.pl/sh, then you detach and do a delayed
cvs update in the docroot.
#!/bin/sh
SITE=$1;shift
$CVSROOT/CVSROOT/log_accum.pl $@
# Need to detachs to allow the lock
# to return
(
sleep 5
cd /usr/local/www/data/$SITE || exit 1
cvs update -P -d
) &
--g9SLTOtl000622.1035840571/mobile.webweaving.org--
--g9SLX1UB000646.1035840786/mobile.webweaving.org--
--g9SLbDU7000675.1035841038/mobile.webweaving.org--
ReSent-Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:40:27 +0100 (CET)
ReSent-From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>
ReSent-To: forrest-dev@xml.apache.org
ReSent-Subject: Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
ReSent-Message-ID: <Pi...@mobile.webweaving.org>
> > The cron script is broken, and it didn't copy the files.
> > I have copied the missing files manually, all is ok now.
> could you provide us with a copy of that script that cvs-synchonizes
> between icarus & daedalus the xml-site/-forrest module?
One thing I am using for some other sites is a change in the cvs commit
structure so that changes are auto propagated.
I am not sure this is a good idea from a security perspective - but it may
be worth giving something like this a bit of thoughd.
Dw
rough and ready receipe.
1. Make sure that the www docroot is group writable
for the committing developers.
2. Add a line to loginfo along the lines of
www-asemantics.com $CVSROOT/CVSROOT/www_update.sh asemantics.com %s
3. Add a script to CVSROOT 'www_update.sh'.
4. Add the name of the script to
checkoutlist
5. in www_update.sh make sure you *first* do the usual
log_accum.pl/sh, then you detach and do a delayed
cvs update in the docroot.
#!/bin/sh
SITE=$1;shift
$CVSROOT/CVSROOT/log_accum.pl $@
# Need to detachs to allow the lock
# to return
(
sleep 5
cd /usr/local/www/data/$SITE || exit 1
cvs update -P -d
) &
--g9SLTOtl000622.1035840571/mobile.webweaving.org--
X-ReSent-Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:31:58 +0100 (CET)
X-ReSent-From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>
X-ReSent-To: forrest-dev@xml.apache.org, Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>
X-ReSent-Subject: Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
X-ReSent-Message-ID: <Pi...@mobile.webweaving.org>
> > The cron script is broken, and it didn't copy the files.
> > I have copied the missing files manually, all is ok now.
> could you provide us with a copy of that script that cvs-synchonizes
> between icarus & daedalus the xml-site/-forrest module?
One thing I am using for some other sites is a change in the cvs commit
structure so that changes are auto propagated.
I am not sure this is a good idea from a security perspective - but it may
be worth giving something like this a bit of thoughd.
Dw
rough and ready receipe.
1. Make sure that the www docroot is group writable
for the committing developers.
2. Add a line to loginfo along the lines of
www-asemantics.com $CVSROOT/CVSROOT/www_update.sh asemantics.com %s
3. Add a script to CVSROOT 'www_update.sh'.
4. Add the name of the script to
checkoutlist
5. in www_update.sh make sure you *first* do the usual
log_accum.pl/sh, then you detach and do a delayed
cvs update in the docroot.
#!/bin/sh
SITE=$1;shift
$CVSROOT/CVSROOT/log_accum.pl $@
# Need to detachs to allow the lock
# to return
(
sleep 5
cd /usr/local/www/data/$SITE || exit 1
cvs update -P -d
) &
--g9SLTOtl000622.1035840571/mobile.webweaving.org--
--g9SLX1UB000646.1035840786/mobile.webweaving.org--
ReSent-Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:36:09 +0100 (CET)
ReSent-From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>
ReSent-To: forrest-dev@xml.apache.org, Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>
ReSent-Subject: Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
ReSent-Message-ID: <Pi...@mobile.webweaving.org>
> > The cron script is broken, and it didn't copy the files.
> > I have copied the missing files manually, all is ok now.
> could you provide us with a copy of that script that cvs-synchonizes
> between icarus & daedalus the xml-site/-forrest module?
One thing I am using for some other sites is a change in the cvs commit
structure so that changes are auto propagated.
I am not sure this is a good idea from a security perspective - but it may
be worth giving something like this a bit of thoughd.
Dw
rough and ready receipe.
1. Make sure that the www docroot is group writable
for the committing developers.
2. Add a line to loginfo along the lines of
www-asemantics.com $CVSROOT/CVSROOT/www_update.sh asemantics.com %s
3. Add a script to CVSROOT 'www_update.sh'.
4. Add the name of the script to
checkoutlist
5. in www_update.sh make sure you *first* do the usual
log_accum.pl/sh, then you detach and do a delayed
cvs update in the docroot.
#!/bin/sh
SITE=$1;shift
$CVSROOT/CVSROOT/log_accum.pl $@
# Need to detachs to allow the lock
# to return
(
sleep 5
cd /usr/local/www/data/$SITE || exit 1
cvs update -P -d
) &
--g9SLTOtl000622.1035840571/mobile.webweaving.org--
ReSent-Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:31:58 +0100 (CET)
ReSent-From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>
ReSent-To: forrest-dev@xml.apache.org, Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>
ReSent-Subject: Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
ReSent-Message-ID: <Pi...@mobile.webweaving.org>
> > The cron script is broken, and it didn't copy the files.
> > I have copied the missing files manually, all is ok now.
> could you provide us with a copy of that script that cvs-synchonizes
> between icarus & daedalus the xml-site/-forrest module?
One thing I am using for some other sites is a change in the cvs commit
structure so that changes are auto propagated.
I am not sure this is a good idea from a security perspective - but it may
be worth giving something like this a bit of thoughd.
Dw
rough and ready receipe.
1. Make sure that the www docroot is group writable
for the committing developers.
2. Add a line to loginfo along the lines of
www-asemantics.com $CVSROOT/CVSROOT/www_update.sh asemantics.com %s
3. Add a script to CVSROOT 'www_update.sh'.
4. Add the name of the script to
checkoutlist
5. in www_update.sh make sure you *first* do the usual
log_accum.pl/sh, then you detach and do a delayed
cvs update in the docroot.
#!/bin/sh
SITE=$1;shift
$CVSROOT/CVSROOT/log_accum.pl $@
# Need to detachs to allow the lock
# to return
(
sleep 5
cd /usr/local/www/data/$SITE || exit 1
cvs update -P -d
) &
--g9SLTOtl000622.1035840571/mobile.webweaving.org--
--g9SLX1UB000646.1035840786/mobile.webweaving.org--
--g9SLbDU7000675.1035841038/mobile.webweaving.org--
Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> The cron script is broken, and it didn't copy the files.
> I have copied the missing files manually, all is ok now.
Sam,
could you provide us with a copy of that script that cvs-synchonizes
between icarus & daedalus the xml-site/-forrest module?
Apparently, we had some issues when using it for the main xml-site, and
we want to take a look at it.
Regards,
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
stevenn@outerthought.org stevenn@apache.org
RE: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Robert Koberg <ro...@koberg.com>.
ahhh geeez... I guess if the script is broke then...
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nicola Ken Barozzi [mailto:nicolaken@apache.org]
> Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 1:28 PM
> To: forrest-dev@xml.apache.org
> Subject: Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
>
>
>
> Steven Noels wrote:
> > Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> >
> > > I'm happy to inform you that I just committed the new version of the
> > > xml site in CVS.
> >
> > Site looks bad - un-committed or un-updated files apparently - I tried
> > to cvs update locally on daedalus (you have access there too, Nicola,
> > and the website is in /www/xml.apache.org) - to no avail. And no time to
> > further investigate :-(
>
> The cron script is broken, and it didn't copy the files.
> I have copied the missing files manually, all is ok now.
>
> Sorry :-/
>
> --
> Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
> - verba volant, scripta manent -
> (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Steven Noels wrote:
> Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> > I'm happy to inform you that I just committed the new version of the
> > xml site in CVS.
>
> Site looks bad - un-committed or un-updated files apparently - I tried
> to cvs update locally on daedalus (you have access there too, Nicola,
> and the website is in /www/xml.apache.org) - to no avail. And no time to
> further investigate :-(
The cron script is broken, and it didn't copy the files.
I have copied the missing files manually, all is ok now.
Sorry :-/
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> Actually, that's what we did.
>
> We published it since quite some time under
> http://xml.apache.org/forrest/xml-site/
>
> (it's still there BTW, I'm removing it in CVS now to avoid confusion)
> and told the general@xml.apache.org list to take a look.
>
> Then infrastructure@apache.org asked to switch ASAP, the PMC also told
> we needed to change soon to the board, and I got messages telling me to
> do it.
>
> I gave a warning, updated CVS, told all to check, and waited.
> When a problem came, I fixed it.
This is a slightly euphemistic version of the timeline, but in general
we can only appreciate the time you have been allocating to the Cause in
the past few weeks. You'll get your rewards somehow ;-)
> I know that the site is not yet all Forrest made, but we don't have the
> power to impose it.
> I've been lobbying some other projects in their own lists for months al
> alone, and cannot wait another year till they feel they have time, nor I
> can be on all lists.
>
> Some projects have been very active on it: FOP is nearly ready, XIndice
> is happily getting ready, and Cocoon gotta wake up some time now.
>
> They'll get going faster now if they want the same look.
As I stated in one of my past mails, I'll have at least a month's worth
of paid time to work on Forrest after the GetTogether, fixing DTDs, bots
and documentation, providing migration paths etc etc.
I'll be very happy to work on this together.
Also, we should propose forrest-dev as the caretakers of the main
xml.apache.org site - we have the right mix of people over here, and
nobody else really cares.
OTOH, I privately expressed my support to Stefano if he wants to propose
cocoon.apache.org as a toplevel project to the board, so maybe
xml.apache.org will quickly become an empty container (although we
should check that assumption with xerces/xalan/fop/xindice/axkit).
I know I reacted kind of harsh on your solo action, but I guess we know
each other already long enough to live through that :-)
Thumbs up, Nicola.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
stevenn@outerthought.org stevenn@apache.org
Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Robert Koberg wrote:
> This is exactly the problem a staging process is designed to solve.
>
> You move from dev -> qa -> certified -> live
>
> dev is what you are are doing now and then you go directly live.
>
> A better process would be to promote the dev site to qa when you feel it is
> ready.
Actually, that's what we did.
We published it since quite some time under
http://xml.apache.org/forrest/xml-site/
(it's still there BTW, I'm removing it in CVS now to avoid confusion)
and told the general@xml.apache.org list to take a look.
Then infrastructure@apache.org asked to switch ASAP, the PMC also told
we needed to change soon to the board, and I got messages telling me to
do it.
I gave a warning, updated CVS, told all to check, and waited.
When a problem came, I fixed it.
I know that the site is not yet all Forrest made, but we don't have the
power to impose it.
I've been lobbying some other projects in their own lists for months al
alone, and cannot wait another year till they feel they have time, nor I
can be on all lists.
Some projects have been very active on it: FOP is nearly ready, XIndice
is happily getting ready, and Cocoon gotta wake up some time now.
They'll get going faster now if they want the same look.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>.
Robert Koberg wrote:
> This is exactly the problem a staging process is designed to solve.
>
> You move from dev -> qa -> certified -> live
>
> dev is what you are are doing now and then you go directly live.
>
> A better process would be to promote the dev site to qa when you feel it is
> ready.
>
> qa has other people look at it. If they don't like what they see it goes back to
> dev, if they agree they like what they see it is promoted to certified.
>
> Some bot can come around and pick up the cert version daily (or whatever
> interval). If nothing has changed perhaps the bot can skip it or just copy it up
> to live because it is still the latest certified version.
>
> There is plenty of involvement in cocoon's community to support the eyeballs to
> qa (open to all??). Once the communtiy says 'good to go' or is silent then it is
> ready to promote to cert to be picked up by the bot.
>
> best,
> -Rob
Thanks Rob, your QA ideas are fine. Future versions of the
Forrest build should incorporate them. As Ken said we have
a basic workaround QA system for the moment, by publishing
sites underneath Forrest's wing until they are ready.
--David
RE: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Robert Koberg <ro...@koberg.com>.
This is exactly the problem a staging process is designed to solve.
You move from dev -> qa -> certified -> live
dev is what you are are doing now and then you go directly live.
A better process would be to promote the dev site to qa when you feel it is
ready.
qa has other people look at it. If they don't like what they see it goes back to
dev, if they agree they like what they see it is promoted to certified.
Some bot can come around and pick up the cert version daily (or whatever
interval). If nothing has changed perhaps the bot can skip it or just copy it up
to live because it is still the latest certified version.
There is plenty of involvement in cocoon's community to support the eyeballs to
qa (open to all??). Once the communtiy says 'good to go' or is silent then it is
ready to promote to cert to be picked up by the bot.
best,
-Rob
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven Noels [mailto:stevenn@outerthought.org]
> Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 1:08 PM
> To: forrest-dev@xml.apache.org
> Subject: Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
>
>
> Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> > I'm happy to inform you that I just committed the new version of the
> > xml site in CVS.
>
> Site looks bad - un-committed or un-updated files apparently - I tried
> to cvs update locally on daedalus (you have access there too, Nicola,
> and the website is in /www/xml.apache.org) - to no avail. And no time to
> further investigate :-(
>
> > If there are any problems, please contact
> >
> > forrest-dev@xml.apache.org
>
> Hm. Hmmm.
>
> 1) we did a bad job
> 2) you did a solo job
>
> > This will make us have better graphics, automatic PDF creation,
> > faster site, and most of all better bandwidth usage.
>
> Please let's be modest. In the heat of the reorg discussion, I see many
> people making bold claims and strong statements. The cocoon/forrest
> community is known not to fall into that trap. Let's keep it that way.
> Marketing is OK, but too much eagerness is simply bad publicity.
>
> We are stuck now with a site that looks bad, and is known to be
> generated using Forrest. Also, it seems like you simply copied the
> cleaned-up XML files I prepared once and generated the 'new website' out
> of it.
>
> Prior to doing so, you would as well have consulted the forrest-dev'ers,
> no? Did we contact the different projects prior to republishing to check
> on the accuracy if the common pages... no. Timeliness... no. Just a
> quick and dirty hack based on some source files I committed months ago.
>
> It's not because this is a can-do-ocracy that we should do things
> without enough consideration...
>
> Sorry if I seem pissed off, but that's because I'm currently lacking the
> time to help you with it, and you preferred going solo anyhow.
>
> </Steven>
> --
> Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
> Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
> stevenn@outerthought.org stevenn@apache.org
>
Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> I'm happy to inform you that I just committed the new version of the
> xml site in CVS.
Site looks bad - un-committed or un-updated files apparently - I tried
to cvs update locally on daedalus (you have access there too, Nicola,
and the website is in /www/xml.apache.org) - to no avail. And no time to
further investigate :-(
> If there are any problems, please contact
>
> forrest-dev@xml.apache.org
Hm. Hmmm.
1) we did a bad job
2) you did a solo job
> This will make us have better graphics, automatic PDF creation,
> faster site, and most of all better bandwidth usage.
Please let's be modest. In the heat of the reorg discussion, I see many
people making bold claims and strong statements. The cocoon/forrest
community is known not to fall into that trap. Let's keep it that way.
Marketing is OK, but too much eagerness is simply bad publicity.
We are stuck now with a site that looks bad, and is known to be
generated using Forrest. Also, it seems like you simply copied the
cleaned-up XML files I prepared once and generated the 'new website' out
of it.
Prior to doing so, you would as well have consulted the forrest-dev'ers,
no? Did we contact the different projects prior to republishing to check
on the accuracy if the common pages... no. Timeliness... no. Just a
quick and dirty hack based on some source files I committed months ago.
It's not because this is a can-do-ocracy that we should do things
without enough consideration...
Sorry if I seem pissed off, but that's because I'm currently lacking the
time to help you with it, and you preferred going solo anyhow.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
stevenn@outerthought.org stevenn@apache.org
Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Ivelin Ivanov <iv...@apache.org>.
The new look is much better.
I hope the subprojects will come on board sooner than later.
Ivelin
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ugo Cei" <u....@cbim.it>
To: <fo...@xml.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 2:01 AM
Subject: Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
> Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> > I'm happy to inform you that I just committed the new version of the xml
> > site in CVS.
>
> Nice job, Ken!
>
> > If there are any problems, please contact
> >
> > forrest-dev@xml.apache.org
>
> "Ibernated" should really be "Hibernated", shouldn't it?
>
> Ugo
>
> --
> Ugo Cei - http://www.beblogging.com/blog/
>
Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Ugo Cei <u....@cbim.it>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> I'm happy to inform you that I just committed the new version of the xml
> site in CVS.
Nice job, Ken!
> If there are any problems, please contact
>
> forrest-dev@xml.apache.org
"Ibernated" should really be "Hibernated", shouldn't it?
Ugo
--
Ugo Cei - http://www.beblogging.com/blog/
Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Vadim Gritsenko <va...@verizon.net>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> I'm happy to inform you that I just committed the new version of the
> xml site in CVS.
What's next step - when it will go live?
> If there are any problems, please contact
>
> forrest-dev@xml.apache.org
>
> This will make us have better graphics, automatic PDF creation, faster
> site, and most of all better bandwidth usage.
>
> Bandwidth is not free.
>
> As such, I encourage all xml projects to evaluate Forrest in this
> regard, and think about keeping the site sources in their project CVS.
>
> If you decide to use Forrest we will be more than happy to help and to
> give you a hand in the conversion process.
Hmmm... I guess here, in Cocoon, we should try to use it ;-)
Vadim
> -o-
>
> I have moved some projects under "Hibernated Projects".
> If there are any objections, and to add information about your project
> in the main page (since not all projects are there yet, but only on
> the left links), don't hesitate to do it yourself.
>
> Get xml-site from CVS, change the sources, build the docs and commit
> the changes. They will be picked up in the next cron job run.
>
> To use Forrest, install it as described here* , cd in the directory of
> the project and run "forrest". For the xml-site module, then copy the
> results of ./build/site in ./targets and commit changes. The sources
> are in ./src/documentation .
>
> *[http://xml.apache.org/forrest/your-project.html]
>
> -o-
>
> Thank you :-)
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Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Keiron Liddle <ke...@aftexsw.com>.
One quick problem I have found. The cocoon+batik doesn't seem to work
for me, there is a:
java.lang.ClassCastException: org.apache.xerces.parsers.SAXParser
at org.apache.cocoon.serialization.SVGSerializer.notify(Unknown Source)
A more recent cocoon seems to fix this but then I got other problems.
BTW. I have update some docs in FOP to try things out. The sitemap does
some extra svg->png and svg->pdf conversions and there is some problem
with my svg->pdf matcher.
On Fri, 2002-10-25 at 17:53, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> I'm happy to inform you that I just committed the new version of the xml
> site in CVS.
Thats great.
> If there are any problems, please contact
>
> forrest-dev@xml.apache.org
See if this message gets through...
> Get xml-site from CVS, change the sources, build the docs and commit the
> changes. They will be picked up in the next cron job run.
Does this include FOP, I only just noticed, the docs aren't ready yet.
Keiron.
Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
Lazy consensus. Just do it.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> David Crossley wrote:
>
>> Greg Stein wrote:
>>
>>> The front page is also totally lacking any information about the the
>>> fact
>>> that xml.apache.org is a project of the Apache Software Foundation,
>>> and it
>>> does not provide any link back to www.apache.org.
>>>
>>> [ there is a tiny copyright at the bottom of the page, but that is
>>> insufficient ]
>>
>>
>> Top-left corner is the "Apache" trail. The lack of other mention
>> is something that needs to be addressed in the xdocs contents for
>> xml-site module. I just patched
>> xml-site/src/documentation/content/xdocs/index.xml
>> to address the specific issue that you raised.
>
>
> The same problem IMHO is with Jakarta.
> At least the new XML page logo has "Apache" written in it, while
> Jakarta lacks it, which is not so good IMO.
>
> I made two pages with possible solutions to this:
>
> http://cvs.apache.org/~nicolaken/alt1/
> http://cvs.apache.org/~nicolaken/alt/
>
> I have proposed alt1 to general@jakarta, and it basically didn't get
> comments, only one +1 and one +-0.
>
> What do you think, should it be done?
>
> Also, I have also made a Forrest version of the main Apache site, what
> do you think, can it be done?
>
> http://cvs.apache.org/~nicolaken/apache-www/build/site/
>
--
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Re: New ASF site was Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> I would be against such a bot in use for ASF sites.
>
> There are times when we want to check in a change and do not necessarily
> want to propogate the change immediately (say a pending security
> release). There are also times when we want an immediate deployment -
> waiting for a bot could be painful (activating the bot by trigger could
> be useful but introduces the first problem).
>
> I'm also concerned about security risks of a remote cron job that copies
> the files to production. Remember that we can't do the generation on
> the production site.
>
> So, I would strongly prefer that we maintain manual deployment.
Then why should we use CVS as a synchronization mechanism, if rsync and
friends exist, and could be packaged in a user-triggerable script as
well - maybe a webapp so that people can trigger updates through a
special, authenticated URL...?
The main problem is CVS's awkward handling of directories and removal of
historical cruft. It is well suited for source code development, but not
as a staging mechanism for websites, IMO.
> As I bet you are aware, there will be major performance considerations
> if you go down this route. I would be reluctant to move away from
> static pages in any ASF environment. In the past, I have worked with
> sites that used Java/XML/XSLTs to dynamically generate the pages and was
> bitten by their lack of scalibility. The approach the ASF has tried to
> promote on its webpages is static translations rather than dynamic
> translations. I believe it fits well in our deployment model.
>
> Please remember that the ASF sites handle approximately 2-3 million hits
> a day (may well be much more by now). Dynamic pages may make sense for
> small sites, but I'd have to be sold on doing this for such a large site
> that has severe resource constraints. We have no money to buy a Fire
> V480 - we're lucky we have daedalus/icarus. -- justin
And I have been suggesting recently to add additional servers to the ASF
serverpark, since getting access to other servers than daedalus & icarus
is hard to get. We were playing with the idea to use proxy_pass to proxy
dynamic resources. Maybe that could be the right balance between dynamic
websites and static delivery.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
stevenn@outerthought.org stevenn@apache.org
Re: New ASF site was Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
[...]
> I'm also concerned about security risks of a remote cron job that copies
> the files to production. Remember that we can't do the generation on
> the production site.
>
> So, I would strongly prefer that we maintain manual deployment.
The Xml.Apache site is gotten from CVS and updated on the production
site using a cron job...
>> The real goal is to use Forrest *live*, thus serving the *best*
>> content to each browser, by doing separate transformation based on
>> the request, a thing that a single graphics cannot give.
>
> As I bet you are aware, there will be major performance considerations
> if you go down this route. I would be reluctant to move away from
> static pages in any ASF environment. In the past, I have worked with
> sites that used Java/XML/XSLTs to dynamically generate the pages and was
> bitten by their lack of scalibility. The approach the ASF has tried to
> promote on its webpages is static translations rather than dynamic
> translations. I believe it fits well in our deployment model.
.
> Please remember that the ASF sites handle approximately 2-3 million hits
> a day (may well be much more by now). Dynamic pages may make sense for
> small sites, but I'd have to be sold on doing this for such a large site
> that has severe resource constraints. We have no money to buy a Fire
> V480 - we're lucky we have daedalus/icarus. -- justin
More than fair.
I got carried away... ;-)
Would it be doable if Forrest generated the content statically for all
the browsers and Apache directed the browser to the correct pages using
the request header?
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: New ASF site was Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>.
Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> > With Forrest we have created for this purpose a "bot" that simply
> > checks out a series of sites from CVS, runs the build, and uploads
> > them to the website.
>
> I would be against such a bot in use for ASF sites.
>
> There are times when we want to check in a change and do not
> necessarily want to propogate the change immediately (say a pending
> security release). There are also times when we want an immediate
> deployment - waiting for a bot could be painful (activating the bot
> by trigger could be useful but introduces the first problem).
There are various ways to initiate the forrestbot.
It could also be configured to build to a staging area
for QA. If it does not yet suit users needs, then we will
add functionality. As with all projects, we need users.
Above all we need feedback and requirements, so keep on.
> I'm also concerned about security risks of a remote cron job that
> copies the files to production. Remember that we can't do the
> generation on the production site.
So we would build projects on the remote machine
with Forrest, and use rsync to publish (over ssh
if needed) or scp. Does that suit?
> So, I would strongly prefer that we maintain manual deployment.
>
> > The real goal is to use Forrest *live*, thus serving the *best*
> > content to each browser, by doing separate transformation based on
> > the request, a thing that a single graphics cannot give.
Ken, the "real" goal of Forrest is to meet diverse
needs. Live run is one of those, but not the main.
Forrestbot and local build are equally important.
I am sure that you know this, as you have been with
us since the early days. I think that you are getting
exited and over-zealous in your promotion of Forrest.
I do understand - it is brilliant. Please settle down.
> As I bet you are aware, there will be major performance
> considerations if you go down this route. I would be reluctant to
> move away from static pages in any ASF environment. In the past, I
> have worked with sites that used Java/XML/XSLTs to dynamically
> generate the pages and was bitten by their lack of scalibility. The
> approach the ASF has tried to promote on its webpages is static
> translations rather than dynamic translations. I believe it fits
> well in our deployment model.
That is why Forrest has diverse capabilities to
suit various needs.
> Please remember that the ASF sites handle approximately 2-3 million
> hits a day (may well be much more by now). Dynamic pages may make
> sense for small sites, but I'd have to be sold on doing this for such
> a large site that has severe resource constraints. We have no money
> to buy a Fire V480 - we're lucky we have daedalus/icarus. -- justin
These frustrations have actually fuelled Forrest's
development. We have had to find ways to work with such
real-life situations. IMO, static pages are the way to
go, perhaps using some well-designed dynamic bits where
appropriate.
--David
Re: New ASF site was Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <je...@apache.org>.
--On Sunday, October 27, 2002 12:52 AM +0200 Nicola Ken Barozzi
<ni...@apache.org> wrote:
> With Forrest we have created for this purpose a "bot" that simply
> checks out a series of sites from CVS, runs the build, and uploads
> them to the website.
I would be against such a bot in use for ASF sites.
There are times when we want to check in a change and do not
necessarily want to propogate the change immediately (say a pending
security release). There are also times when we want an immediate
deployment - waiting for a bot could be painful (activating the bot
by trigger could be useful but introduces the first problem).
I'm also concerned about security risks of a remote cron job that
copies the files to production. Remember that we can't do the
generation on the production site.
So, I would strongly prefer that we maintain manual deployment.
> The real goal is to use Forrest *live*, thus serving the *best*
> content to each browser, by doing separate transformation based on
> the request, a thing that a single graphics cannot give.
As I bet you are aware, there will be major performance
considerations if you go down this route. I would be reluctant to
move away from static pages in any ASF environment. In the past, I
have worked with sites that used Java/XML/XSLTs to dynamically
generate the pages and was bitten by their lack of scalibility. The
approach the ASF has tried to promote on its webpages is static
translations rather than dynamic translations. I believe it fits
well in our deployment model.
Please remember that the ASF sites handle approximately 2-3 million
hits a day (may well be much more by now). Dynamic pages may make
sense for small sites, but I'd have to be sold on doing this for such
a large site that has severe resource constraints. We have no money
to buy a Fire V480 - we're lucky we have daedalus/icarus. -- justin
Re: New ASF site was Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
I'm ccing this also to Forresters.
Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> [ Moving this to site-dev@ which is the appropriate list. ]
>
>> Also, I have also made a Forrest version of the main Apache site,
>> what do you think, can it be done?
>>
>> http://cvs.apache.org/~nicolaken/apache-www/build/site/
>
> I would say 'no' until certain things are resolved.
>
> Graphically, I much prefer the uni-color white background. There is
> also something about repeating the links at the top of the content pane
> that strikes me as funny. (I think we might be able to fix these issues.)
Sure. The current version is the best we got now, but it will get better
and better with more feedback. :-)
> I've brought up the build system issues on general@commons. If Forrest
> requires a separate step for building it (apart from what we already do
> with anakia), I'm going to be against it.
Errr, as a "separate step", you mean having to install-build Forrest it
first?
From the commandline it basically works as Anakia...
> We really can't introduce
> another requirement. We already have enough people who refuse to update
> the www.apache.org (or httpd.apache.org) sites because they refuse to
> work with any Java-based document systems.
:-/
> So, I don't expect that we
> can require the people who modify our site to go download Forrest
> snapshots, tweak environment variables, run special Java scripts, etc.
> It's bad enough as it is. So, if we do this, we have to be able to run
> it with ./build.sh alone.
It's not a problem, it's just a matter of defining on how to do it, and
then we will make it avaliable.
How about a build.sh script in each site CVS that does this:
1 - checks if forrest is installed globally
2 - if not checks if it's installed in the dir of the site to build
2 - if not it asks if it's ok to download it
3 - downloads the Forrest jar with wget
4 - unpacks it
5 - runs Forrest
This way we don't strain CVS, don't have to checkin Forrest and users
that already have forrest installed use it normally.
But of course Java has to be installed...
-oOo-
There is another possibility though.
With Forrest we have created for this purpose a "bot" that simply checks
out a series of sites from CVS, runs the build, and uploads them to the
website.
It's been working for Forrest by publishing the forrest site
automatically on Sourceforge and outerthought.net since months now, with
no problem.
http://outerthought.net/forrest/
http://www.krysalis.org/forrest/
This could be an option.
> Yet, my biggest concern is how it looks in a text-only browser.
> xml.apache.org looks awful in links, while www.apache.org is browsable
> with links (rather clean). So, before we go on a crusade to change even
> more of the ASF sites to Forrest, I would like to ensure that we keep
> text-only browsers fully supported. -- justin
Ok, I'll tell this to our skin writers.
We tried using CSS without tables but it simply crashed Netscape 4.7.
Actually, the real goal of Forrest is not to generate the site
statically, that's just a temporary _hack_, a showcase to get people see it.
The real goal is to use Forrest *live*, thus serving the *best* content
to each browser, by doing separate transformation based on the request,
a thing that a single graphics cannot give.
It will make it possible also to make registered users add comments on
the pages, and add documentation *without* having to build documentation
(*ugh*) or see xml (*double ugh*), since we are near to do in-place
editing in Mozilla and Netscape.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>.
Greg Stein wrote:
> Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> > I'm happy to inform you that I just committed the new version of the xml
> > site in CVS.
>
> Looks great!
It sure does. It has been a long road to get to this.
Now we need some polishing. Please all who are interested
come and help us at xml.apache.org/forrest/ and|or dive
in to edit the xml content in xml-site CVS.
> The front page says "Ibernated Projects" (missing H)
Fixed in CVS.
> > If there are any objections, and to add information about your project
> > in the main page (since not all projects are there yet, but only on the
> > left links), don't hesitate to do it yourself.
>
> The front page is also totally lacking any information about the the fact
> that xml.apache.org is a project of the Apache Software Foundation, and it
> does not provide any link back to www.apache.org.
>
> [ there is a tiny copyright at the bottom of the page, but that is
> insufficient ]
Top-left corner is the "Apache" trail. The lack of other mention
is something that needs to be addressed in the xdocs contents for
xml-site module. I just patched
xml-site/src/documentation/content/xdocs/index.xml
to address the specific issue that you raised.
I am not sure when the xml.apache.org site will next get
published, but that is the concern of Forrest now.
--David
> Thanks,
> -g
>
> --
> Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
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Re: New Apache XML Site! :-)
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>.
Greg Stein wrote:
> Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> > I'm happy to inform you that I just committed the new version of the xml
> > site in CVS.
>
> Looks great!
It sure does. It has been a long road to get to this.
Now we need some polishing. Please all who are interested
come and help us at xml.apache.org/forrest/ and|or dive
in to edit the xml content in xml-site CVS.
> The front page says "Ibernated Projects" (missing H)
Fixed in CVS.
> > If there are any objections, and to add information about your project
> > in the main page (since not all projects are there yet, but only on the
> > left links), don't hesitate to do it yourself.
>
> The front page is also totally lacking any information about the the fact
> that xml.apache.org is a project of the Apache Software Foundation, and it
> does not provide any link back to www.apache.org.
>
> [ there is a tiny copyright at the bottom of the page, but that is
> insufficient ]
Top-left corner is the "Apache" trail. The lack of other mention
is something that needs to be addressed in the xdocs contents for
xml-site module. I just patched
xml-site/src/documentation/content/xdocs/index.xml
to address the specific issue that you raised.
I am not sure when the xml.apache.org site will next get
published, but that is the concern of Forrest now.
--David
> Thanks,
> -g
>
> --
> Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/