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Posted to agila-dev@incubator.apache.org by Matthieu Riou <ma...@gmail.com> on 2005/01/11 16:08:41 UTC
Agila, Twister and WS-BPEL
Hi all,
I'm sending this e-mail as a starter for discussing the donation of
Twister's codebase to the Apache incubator as part of the Agila
project. The goal here would be include WS-BPEL support into Agila.
As it has been discussed before, it would be quite a lot of work to
turn Agila as it is into a WS-BPEL compliant implementation. A
complete discussion can be found following these threads:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=incubator-general&m=109827677126666&w=2
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=incubator-general&m=110052316422755&w=2
After some discussion with Geir, a possible solution could be to
include Twister's codebase in Agila's without absolutely merging the
two. The idea would be to have two separate tools that could integrate
nicely into each other, packaged together under the same name. We
would therefore offer a complete BPM solution.
This solution makes sense as, generally speaking, a workflow engine
and an orchestration engine are more complementary than overlapping
and usually solve different problems. For example Twister could use
Agila to handle worklist management and Agila could use Twister for
service orchestration.
What do you all think about this ?
Cheers,
Matthieu.
Re: Agila, Twister and WS-BPEL
Posted by Matthieu Riou <ma...@gmail.com>.
> > Thanks Bruce, I had a quick look at this page already but I believe
> > I'll actually have to read the whole of it now ;) But as the
> > proposition is to integrate Twister into the Agila project, I believe
> > the process is going to be a bit different, no? Or will I need a
> > "Champion" and a "Sponsor" as well?
>
> I don't see the need, unless we want to bring as separate projects. I
> can't think of any reason why this has to have that complication.
Cool :)
Re: Agila, Twister and WS-BPEL
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@4quarters.com>.
On Feb 1, 2005, at 8:38 AM, Matthieu Riou wrote:
> Thanks Bruce, I had a quick look at this page already but I believe
> I'll actually have to read the whole of it now ;) But as the
> proposition is to integrate Twister into the Agila project, I believe
> the process is going to be a bit different, no? Or will I need a
> "Champion" and a "Sponsor" as well?
I don't see the need, unless we want to bring as separate projects. I
can't think of any reason why this has to have that complication.
geir
>
>
> On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:10:50 -0700, Bruce Snyder
> <br...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Matthieu,
>>
>> I'm interested in helping out wherever I can. I'd like to see Twister
>> be integrated with Agila as well. A good place to start get info on
>> the Incubator process and what's involved can be found here:
>>
>> http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Incubation_Policy.html
>>
>> Start with this page and work your way down the links on the left hand
>> side of the page.
>>
>> Let's get the administrative stuff out of the way as quickly as
>> possible so that the work on the integration can begin.
>>
>> Bruce
>> --
>> perl -e 'print
>> unpack("u30","<0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F9E<G)E=\$\!F<FEI+F-O;0\`\`");'
>>
>> The Castor Project
>> http://www.castor.org/
>>
>> Apache Geronimo
>> http://geronimo.apache.org/
>>
>
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geir@gluecode.com
Re: Agila, Twister and WS-BPEL
Posted by Matthieu Riou <ma...@gmail.com>.
Thanks Bruce, I had a quick look at this page already but I believe
I'll actually have to read the whole of it now ;) But as the
proposition is to integrate Twister into the Agila project, I believe
the process is going to be a bit different, no? Or will I need a
"Champion" and a "Sponsor" as well?
On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:10:50 -0700, Bruce Snyder <br...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Matthieu,
>
> I'm interested in helping out wherever I can. I'd like to see Twister
> be integrated with Agila as well. A good place to start get info on
> the Incubator process and what's involved can be found here:
>
> http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Incubation_Policy.html
>
> Start with this page and work your way down the links on the left hand
> side of the page.
>
> Let's get the administrative stuff out of the way as quickly as
> possible so that the work on the integration can begin.
>
> Bruce
> --
> perl -e 'print unpack("u30","<0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F9E<G)E=\$\!F<FEI+F-O;0\`\`");'
>
> The Castor Project
> http://www.castor.org/
>
> Apache Geronimo
> http://geronimo.apache.org/
>
Re: Agila, Twister and WS-BPEL
Posted by Bruce Snyder <br...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 07:26:26 -0800, Geir Magnusson Jr. <ge...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On Feb 1, 2005, at 5:23 AM, Matthieu Riou wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > To be quite honest, I'm getting a bit tired of trying to get things
> > moving forward. I understand many Agila commiters and Geir must be
> > pretty busy but we're also losing a lot of time here.
> >
> > Answers? Solutions? I would like to see an action plan. I don't mind
> > helping but without any input, I can't do much.
>
> :)
>
> I the way to do this, if you want to bring twister here, is fairly
> straight forward.
>
> 0) We propose to incubator that we (Agila) wish to incorporate Twister
> into the project
>
> 1) Code : Is there one copyright owner on the code?
>
> a) if so, then we're fine - we'll need a version of the code licensed
> to the ASF
> b) if not, you'll need to get agreement from all copyright holders
> that they want to license a copy to the ASF
>
> 2) Paperwork : Once that's done, we get a software grant and icla from
> you
>
> 3) Once we have all, we do the process stuff internally here and then
> it comes over.
Matthieu,
I'm interested in helping out wherever I can. I'd like to see Twister
be integrated with Agila as well. A good place to start get info on
the Incubator process and what's involved can be found here:
http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Incubation_Policy.html
Start with this page and work your way down the links on the left hand
side of the page.
Let's get the administrative stuff out of the way as quickly as
possible so that the work on the integration can begin.
Bruce
--
perl -e 'print unpack("u30","<0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F9E<G)E=\$\!F<FEI+F-O;0\`\`");'
The Castor Project
http://www.castor.org/
Apache Geronimo
http://geronimo.apache.org/
Re: Agila, Twister and WS-BPEL
Posted by Matthieu Riou <ma...@gmail.com>.
> I'll see if I can figure out the shortest, simplest path to this.
Cool, just let me know.
> I don't understand why you disclaim all copyright interest, as it says
> at the bottom.
Oops! That's one of the major inconvenient of not being a native
english speaker, sometimes you just mix things up. I meant "claim"
instead of "disclaim" of course. I'll update the online license.
> Fax to the # on the paper, and for speed, fax to +1-203-665-6400, my
> fax machine. I can accept the document on behalf of the foundation,
> and get the user account stuff started (I have a whole bunch to do for
> Agila anyway).
I'll fax you the ICLA tomorrow.
> The list of committers will be good - who else is there? are there
> others? and are you sure that you have (c) if they have been giving
> you code?
There are actually 4 other commiters beside me. I've already talked to
them about the (c) thing. Their names are Frederic Do Couto Fernandes,
Milan Chudick, Norman Schoneich and Victor Panizza.
Re: Agila, Twister and WS-BPEL
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@4quarters.com>.
On Feb 1, 2005, at 8:31 AM, Matthieu Riou wrote:
> Thanks a lot to answer to my frustrations Geir :) I believe it would
> be very valuable for Twister, for Agila, for the ASF and for the
> WS-BPEL community to bring Twister into incubation with Agila.
I do too. I think that having a BPM project that has both BPEL (for
the standards and pointy-bracket crowd) as well as the alternative
Agila engine means a project that can address the needs of more people,
and a bigger collaborating community.
>
> And, as often, I have more questions. And few answers too :)
>
>> 0) We propose to incubator that we (Agila) wish to incorporate Twister
>> into the project
>
> Do you want to make the proposal or would you like me to send an
> e-mail to the general incubator mailing list? What's your prefered way
> of proceeding?
I'll see if I can figure out the shortest, simplest path to this.
>
>> 1) Code : Is there one copyright owner on the code?
>
> Yes, I'm the copyright owner as defined in a paragraph attached to our
> license, distributed with Twister's release (all way down):
>
> http://www.smartcomps.org/twister/license.html
>
I don't understand why you disclaim all copyright interest, as it says
at the bottom.
> I'll update the code to include the ASF license agreement before
> checking in the code.
The top of each file should have :
/*
* Copyright 2004 The Apache Software Foundation or its licensors, as
* applicable.
*
* Licensed under the Apache License, Version 2.0 (the "License");
* you may not use this file except in compliance with the License.
* You may obtain a copy of the License at
*
* http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0
*
* Unless required by applicable law or agreed to in writing, software
* distributed under the License is distributed on an "AS IS" BASIS,
* WITHOUT WARRANTIES OR CONDITIONS OF ANY KIND, either express or
* implied.
*
* See the License for the specific language governing permissions and
* limitations under the License.
*/
>
>> 2) Paperwork : Once that's done, we get a software grant and icla from
>> you
>
> Just tell me where I can download these and where to send them and
> I'll do it.
Ok - you'll need :
the "ICLA" :
http://www.apache.org/licenses/icla.txt
http://www.apache.org/licenses/icla.pdf
(either one - the pdf is prettier)
Fax to the # on the paper, and for speed, fax to +1-203-665-6400, my
fax machine. I can accept the document on behalf of the foundation,
and get the user account stuff started (I have a whole bunch to do for
Agila anyway).
>
>> 3) Once we have all, we do the process stuff internally here and then
>> it comes over.
>
> Cool :)
>
> At which point will you need a list of Twister's commiters? Will you
> need anything more?
The list of committers will be good - who else is there? are there
others? and are you sure that you have (c) if they have been giving
you code?
>
> Thanks again, I hope we can keep the ball rolling.
>
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geir@gluecode.com
Re: Agila, Twister and WS-BPEL
Posted by Matthieu Riou <ma...@gmail.com>.
Thanks a lot to answer to my frustrations Geir :) I believe it would
be very valuable for Twister, for Agila, for the ASF and for the
WS-BPEL community to bring Twister into incubation with Agila.
And, as often, I have more questions. And few answers too :)
> 0) We propose to incubator that we (Agila) wish to incorporate Twister
> into the project
Do you want to make the proposal or would you like me to send an
e-mail to the general incubator mailing list? What's your prefered way
of proceeding?
> 1) Code : Is there one copyright owner on the code?
Yes, I'm the copyright owner as defined in a paragraph attached to our
license, distributed with Twister's release (all way down):
http://www.smartcomps.org/twister/license.html
I'll update the code to include the ASF license agreement before
checking in the code.
> 2) Paperwork : Once that's done, we get a software grant and icla from
> you
Just tell me where I can download these and where to send them and I'll do it.
> 3) Once we have all, we do the process stuff internally here and then
> it comes over.
Cool :)
At which point will you need a list of Twister's commiters? Will you
need anything more?
Thanks again, I hope we can keep the ball rolling.
Re: Agila, Twister and WS-BPEL
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
On Feb 1, 2005, at 5:23 AM, Matthieu Riou wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> To be quite honest, I'm getting a bit tired of trying to get things
> moving forward. I understand many Agila commiters and Geir must be
> pretty busy but we're also losing a lot of time here.
>
> Answers? Solutions? I would like to see an action plan. I don't mind
> helping but without any input, I can't do much.
:)
I the way to do this, if you want to bring twister here, is fairly
straight forward.
0) We propose to incubator that we (Agila) wish to incorporate Twister
into the project
1) Code : Is there one copyright owner on the code?
a) if so, then we're fine - we'll need a version of the code licensed
to the ASF
b) if not, you'll need to get agreement from all copyright holders
that they want to license a copy to the ASF
2) Paperwork : Once that's done, we get a software grant and icla from
you
3) Once we have all, we do the process stuff internally here and then
it comes over.
geir
>
> Thanks,
>
> Matthieu.
>
>
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:57:04 +0100, Matthieu Riou
> <ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> ... ?
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 22:06:35 +0100, Matthieu Riou
>> <ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I believe the complexity could be reduced by providing "smart"
>>> default
>>> settings depending on how the user intends to use the whole solution.
>>>
>>> Anyway, if everybody agrees on this, how should we proceed ?
>>>
>>> Matthieu.
>>>
>>> On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 07:39:37 +0600, Sanjiva Weerawarana
>>> <sa...@opensource.lk> wrote:
>>>> "Geir Magnusson Jr" <ge...@4quarters.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This solution makes sense as, generally speaking, a workflow
>>>>>> engine
>>>>>> and an orchestration engine are more complementary than
>>>>>> overlapping
>>>>>> and usually solve different problems. For example Twister could
>>>>>> use
>>>>>> Agila to handle worklist management and Agila could use Twister
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> service orchestration.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What do you all think about this ?
>>>>>
>>>>> I like it, but that should not come as a surprise :)
>>>>
>>>> I'm a bit concerned about the implied complexity to users. However
>>>> I'm ok with starting down this path and finding ways of improving as
>>>> needed.
>>>>
>>>> Sanjiva.
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
Re: Agila, Twister and WS-BPEL
Posted by Matthieu Riou <ma...@gmail.com>.
Hi all,
To be quite honest, I'm getting a bit tired of trying to get things
moving forward. I understand many Agila commiters and Geir must be
pretty busy but we're also losing a lot of time here.
Answers? Solutions? I would like to see an action plan. I don't mind
helping but without any input, I can't do much.
Thanks,
Matthieu.
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:57:04 +0100, Matthieu Riou
<ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ... ?
>
>
> On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 22:06:35 +0100, Matthieu Riou
> <ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I believe the complexity could be reduced by providing "smart" default
> > settings depending on how the user intends to use the whole solution.
> >
> > Anyway, if everybody agrees on this, how should we proceed ?
> >
> > Matthieu.
> >
> > On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 07:39:37 +0600, Sanjiva Weerawarana
> > <sa...@opensource.lk> wrote:
> > > "Geir Magnusson Jr" <ge...@4quarters.com>
> > > > >
> > > > > This solution makes sense as, generally speaking, a workflow engine
> > > > > and an orchestration engine are more complementary than overlapping
> > > > > and usually solve different problems. For example Twister could use
> > > > > Agila to handle worklist management and Agila could use Twister for
> > > > > service orchestration.
> > > > >
> > > > > What do you all think about this ?
> > > >
> > > > I like it, but that should not come as a surprise :)
> > >
> > > I'm a bit concerned about the implied complexity to users. However
> > > I'm ok with starting down this path and finding ways of improving as
> > > needed.
> > >
> > > Sanjiva.
> > >
> >
>
Re: Agila, Twister and WS-BPEL
Posted by Matthieu Riou <ma...@gmail.com>.
... ?
On Sun, 23 Jan 2005 22:06:35 +0100, Matthieu Riou
<ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I believe the complexity could be reduced by providing "smart" default
> settings depending on how the user intends to use the whole solution.
>
> Anyway, if everybody agrees on this, how should we proceed ?
>
> Matthieu.
>
> On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 07:39:37 +0600, Sanjiva Weerawarana
> <sa...@opensource.lk> wrote:
> > "Geir Magnusson Jr" <ge...@4quarters.com>
> > > >
> > > > This solution makes sense as, generally speaking, a workflow engine
> > > > and an orchestration engine are more complementary than overlapping
> > > > and usually solve different problems. For example Twister could use
> > > > Agila to handle worklist management and Agila could use Twister for
> > > > service orchestration.
> > > >
> > > > What do you all think about this ?
> > >
> > > I like it, but that should not come as a surprise :)
> >
> > I'm a bit concerned about the implied complexity to users. However
> > I'm ok with starting down this path and finding ways of improving as
> > needed.
> >
> > Sanjiva.
> >
>
Re: Agila, Twister and WS-BPEL
Posted by Matthieu Riou <ma...@gmail.com>.
I believe the complexity could be reduced by providing "smart" default
settings depending on how the user intends to use the whole solution.
Anyway, if everybody agrees on this, how should we proceed ?
Matthieu.
On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 07:39:37 +0600, Sanjiva Weerawarana
<sa...@opensource.lk> wrote:
> "Geir Magnusson Jr" <ge...@4quarters.com>
> > >
> > > This solution makes sense as, generally speaking, a workflow engine
> > > and an orchestration engine are more complementary than overlapping
> > > and usually solve different problems. For example Twister could use
> > > Agila to handle worklist management and Agila could use Twister for
> > > service orchestration.
> > >
> > > What do you all think about this ?
> >
> > I like it, but that should not come as a surprise :)
>
> I'm a bit concerned about the implied complexity to users. However
> I'm ok with starting down this path and finding ways of improving as
> needed.
>
> Sanjiva.
>
Re: Agila, Twister and WS-BPEL
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk>.
"Geir Magnusson Jr" <ge...@4quarters.com>
> >
> > This solution makes sense as, generally speaking, a workflow engine
> > and an orchestration engine are more complementary than overlapping
> > and usually solve different problems. For example Twister could use
> > Agila to handle worklist management and Agila could use Twister for
> > service orchestration.
> >
> > What do you all think about this ?
>
> I like it, but that should not come as a surprise :)
I'm a bit concerned about the implied complexity to users. However
I'm ok with starting down this path and finding ways of improving as
needed.
Sanjiva.
Re: Agila, Twister and WS-BPEL
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@4quarters.com>.
On Jan 11, 2005, at 11:08 AM, Matthieu Riou wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm sending this e-mail as a starter for discussing the donation of
> Twister's codebase to the Apache incubator as part of the Agila
> project. The goal here would be include WS-BPEL support into Agila.
>
> As it has been discussed before, it would be quite a lot of work to
> turn Agila as it is into a WS-BPEL compliant implementation. A
> complete discussion can be found following these threads:
>
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=incubator-general&m=109827677126666&w=2
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=incubator-general&m=110052316422755&w=2
>
> After some discussion with Geir, a possible solution could be to
> include Twister's codebase in Agila's without absolutely merging the
> two. The idea would be to have two separate tools that could integrate
> nicely into each other, packaged together under the same name. We
> would therefore offer a complete BPM solution.
>
> This solution makes sense as, generally speaking, a workflow engine
> and an orchestration engine are more complementary than overlapping
> and usually solve different problems. For example Twister could use
> Agila to handle worklist management and Agila could use Twister for
> service orchestration.
>
> What do you all think about this ?
I like it, but that should not come as a surprise :)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Matthieu.
>
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geir@gluecode.com