Re: [Proposal] remove views from forrest (Re: Views as a Domain Specific Language)

[Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>]

Thorsten Scherler wrote:
...
> On Fri, 2005-05-27 at 11:39 +0100, Ross Gardler wrote:
...
>>So in conclusion, I agree with Gregors concerns, but I also agree with 
>>the direction Thorsten is trying to go in.
> 
> Actually that is the reason why I am proposing that forrest is *not*
> officially developing views anymore.

Please reconsider. You are getting unnecessarily carried away by your 
emotion. Don't mistakenly read mails as if they were personal complaints 
when they are not.

...
> I do not see that it get accepted better said it is causing confusion
> and concerns by user.

Let me be brutally honest with you, as you are being so too with this mail.

Forrest needs a view system that is better than the current skins, and 
what you are doing is generally in line with what I have in mind. You 
like it, you have passion, and this is good.

On the other hand, your descriptions of the system are sometimes totally 
incomprehensible. If I hadn't seen the code and did not have a similar 
concept in mind, I think I would have not understood.

I think it's about time that I check out your work and give you 
feedback. Where do I start?

-- 
Nicola Ken Barozzi                   nicolaken@apache.org
             - verba volant, scripta manent -
    (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [Proposal] remove views from forrest (Re: Views as a Domain Specific Language)

[Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>]

Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> ...
> 
>> On Fri, 2005-05-27 at 11:39 +0100, Ross Gardler wrote:
> 
> ...
> 
>>> So in conclusion, I agree with Gregors concerns, but I also agree 
>>> with the direction Thorsten is trying to go in.
>>
>>
>> Actually that is the reason why I am proposing that forrest is *not*
>> officially developing views anymore.


Woaahhhh!!!!

It's very late for me now, I've had many beers and a bottle of wine so I 
am not about to try and sort this mess out now. However....

Thorsten, please listen to Nicola Ken's very wise words below 
(inparticular the first part - "please reconsider".

I'll explain my original comments in detail tomorrow - for now I hope it 
is enough to say you have misinterpreted the intent of my mail.

Ross


> 
> Please reconsider. You are getting unnecessarily carried away by your 
> emotion. Don't mistakenly read mails as if they were personal complaints 
> when they are not.
> 
> ...
> 
>> I do not see that it get accepted better said it is causing confusion
>> and concerns by user.
> 
> 
> Let me be brutally honest with you, as you are being so too with this mail.
> 
> Forrest needs a view system that is better than the current skins, and 
> what you are doing is generally in line with what I have in mind. You 
> like it, you have passion, and this is good.
> 
> On the other hand, your descriptions of the system are sometimes totally 
> incomprehensible. If I hadn't seen the code and did not have a similar 
> concept in mind, I think I would have not understood.
> 
> I think it's about time that I check out your work and give you 
> feedback. Where do I start?
> 

Re: [Proposal] remove views from forrest (Re: Views as a Domain Specific Language)

[Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>]

Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> On Sun, 2005-05-29 at 16:02 +0200, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> 
>>Thorsten Scherler wrote:
>>...
>>
>>>On Fri, 2005-05-27 at 11:39 +0100, Ross Gardler wrote:
>>
>>...
>>
>>>>So in conclusion, I agree with Gregors concerns, but I also agree with 
>>>>the direction Thorsten is trying to go in.
>>>
>>>Actually that is the reason why I am proposing that forrest is *not*
>>>officially developing views anymore.
>>
>>Please reconsider. You are getting unnecessarily carried away by your 
>>emotion. Don't mistakenly read mails as if they were personal complaints 
>>when they are not.
>>
> 
> 
> Ok, I did not meant to do that but it seems I did. Sorry! 
> 
> I was *not* *recommending* it but was *offering* to do so because I
> thought that is maybe the best for forrest.

Thank goodness it is "an offer", that implies we have a choice, my 
choice is to not accept your offer. We need views, but we (the other 
devs) need  to spend more time understanding it.

(as promised I will explain my original comments when I have a clearer 
head).

Ross

Re: [Proposal] remove views from forrest (Re: Views as a Domain Specific Language)

[Thorsten Scherler <th...@apache.org>]

On Sun, 2005-05-29 at 16:02 +0200, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> Thorsten Scherler wrote:
> ...
> > On Fri, 2005-05-27 at 11:39 +0100, Ross Gardler wrote:
> ...
> >>So in conclusion, I agree with Gregors concerns, but I also agree with 
> >>the direction Thorsten is trying to go in.
> > 
> > Actually that is the reason why I am proposing that forrest is *not*
> > officially developing views anymore.
> 
> Please reconsider. You are getting unnecessarily carried away by your 
> emotion. Don't mistakenly read mails as if they were personal complaints 
> when they are not.
> 

Ok, I did not meant to do that but it seems I did. Sorry! 

I was *not* *recommending* it but was *offering* to do so because I
thought that is maybe the best for forrest.

> ...
> > I do not see that it get accepted better said it is causing confusion
> > and concerns by user.
> 
> Let me be brutally honest with you, as you are being so too with this mail.
> 

:) That is the best. ;-)

> Forrest needs a view system that is better than the current skins, and 
> what you are doing is generally in line with what I have in mind. You 
> like it, you have passion, and this is good.
> 
> On the other hand, your descriptions of the system are sometimes totally 
> incomprehensible. If I hadn't seen the code and did not have a similar 
> concept in mind, I think I would have not understood.
> 

Maybe you can help to describe what views is trying to do.
I know that you are working on a similar concept maybe you can write it down 
and I can use it to implement it. Like you notice it seems that I badly 
failed to describe it in an easy way.

My biggest problem (I guess) is that I am not trying to solve a subset of 
problems but tackle more and more problems with the implementation.

It would be awesome if you can help me again as you did with my first skin and 
set some simple basics goals (do's - don't's) to focus the work of views.

> 
> I think it's about time that I check out your work and give you 
> feedback. Where do I start?
> 

Actually you just did. ;-) It would help that you can firstly write down
your thoughts of the view concept and maybe have a look in the
processing of the xhtml. I do not like the way I produce the final
xsl-stylesheets because I am using dynamic cocoon:// includes to produce
an alias xsl. I reckon that is the most complex thing on the view that
exist right now.

I am sorry if my mail sounded as if I got carried away by my emotions
and thanks for the headsup (at least you know me a wee bit and know that
I sometime react quite emotional, I reckon that is my biggest weakness)

salu2
-- 
thorsten

"Together we stand, divided we fall!" 
Hey you (Pink Floyd)