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Posted to dev@cordova.apache.org by Dmitry Blotsky <dm...@gmail.com> on 2018/04/02 04:50:44 UTC
Re: Translation Bankruptcy?
Andrey, I agree with your point that ideally, the process just works. I think we can achieve this, but it still needs some development work.
On your point #1, what exactly do you mean when you say that developers who work on docs should be aware of the translation process?
- Dmitry
> On Mar 9, 2018, at 3:44 AM, Andrey Kurdumov <ka...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> I could say, that I still around since Cordova, since I have applications
> written in it.
> The problems in first place with translation and CrowdIn when I last time
> working with them is not the actual tooling, but whole workflow which
> include translation.
>
> You could think about translation of docs process in the same way as you
> think supporting of the implementation of library in different languages
> would happens.
> 1. You should put some limitation n the code you wrote (Simpler phrases
> better translated with automation help).
> 2. You should be careful with refactoring, since new code has to be
> implemented in second language. (You should rephrase the text each time,
> significant portion of text is re-written)
>
> Some specifics is that CrowdIn impose restrictions on the translation.
> Uploading of the docs is not that big piece of whole translation.
> Biggest problem for me is shaking the tree structure of the docs. There
> some other issues, but let's limit discussion points.
>
> I would like to have following:
> 1. That developers who work on docs would be aware of process how
> translation is done.
> 2. Establish some semi-formal workflow where I (any representative of
> translation team) have ability to veto changes in docs which could lead to
> disruption of translation work.
> actually item 1 is enough, since item 2 automagically appear out of it.
>
> Without that, I think it is not practical for me translate docs, since all
> work could be gone.
>
> I believe that translation process is more important then tool at this
> point, since tools naturally arise from the process. That's answer on the
> Dmitry proposal to revisit tools.
>
> Steve share concerns that Cordova community is limited on resources to
> support translation. This is valid concerns, but same could be said about
> testing and continuous integration.
> People just follow established processes and everything just work. Same way
> of thinking could be applied to translation.
>
> I still want to bring good Russian translation to Cordova. Maintaining
> separate website is require to me do advertise for it to gain traction. In
> case of having it on Cordova website make it visible to many people.
>
>
>
> 2018-03-09 2:00 GMT+02:00 Dmitry Blotsky <dm...@gmail.com>:
>
>> Hey all,
>>
>> Any thoughts on this?
>>
>> Kindly,
>> Dmitry
>>
>>> On Mar 2, 2018, at 12:24 AM, Dmitry Blotsky <dm...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hey guys,
>>>
>>> Glad that Steve linked me to this discussion.
>>>
>>> The translation content on Crowdin is out of date because it needs to
>> get “synced” with the English version.
>>> The translation content in the repo is out of date because it needs to
>> get “synced” with the Crowdin version.
>>>
>>> Neither of those steps is being done, as far as I know.
>>>
>>> Both of those steps were automated in an almost-finished state when I
>> was last at Microsoft (April 2016), but they never made it into master. It
>> was my goal to get translations become a part of the automated build, just
>> like everything else, but it was deprioritised as a work task, and I didn’t
>> have enough time to do it as an at-home task.
>>>
>>> Having said that, I’ll be done my master’s this April. If you think it
>> might be useful, I can dedicate some cycles to finishing that automation.
>> That way, on every commit (à la Travis), Crowdin will get “synced” with the
>> English version, and the translation content will get “synced” with the
>> Crowdin version.
>>>
>>> As an interim solution for the next short while, I think we can still
>> remove translations for some languages for the latest versions, and point
>> their “latest” and “dev" links to English where they don’t have a “latest”
>> or “dev” translation.
>>>
>>> Finally, as a general point, I think the project needs someone who’s
>> working on Cordova at least part-time (half a week each week), and knows
>> the current site top to bottom. This is why I’m around Slack and GitHub
>> still. After the docs/site merge, I think I’m the only one who’s left who
>> has in-depth knowledge of the new code. Andrey, are you still on Cordova
>> for a significant amount of time? If so, do you want to meet at some point
>> to make a plan to audit the docs tools?
>>>
>>> Kindly,
>>> Dmitry
>>>
>>>> On Feb 28, 2018, at 6:10 PM, Steven Gill <st...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Created an issue for this: https://issues.apache.org/
>> jira/browse/CB-13931
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 1:41 PM, Jesse <pu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> +1 to bankruptcy
>>>>>
>>>>> The translation system was designed at a time where we had major
>>>>> contributions from google, ibm, intel, microsoft ... which sadly has
>> fallen
>>>>> off.
>>>>>
>>>>> We should encourage community member to provide their own
>> translations, via
>>>>> their own sites. I believe Monaca has a considerable about of Japanese
>>>>> material.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> @purplecabbage
>>>>> risingj.com
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 1:25 PM, Steven Gill <st...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree with your suggestion Jan. I don't think we as a project have
>> the
>>>>>> resources to manage translations. The process in place today is not
>> being
>>>>>> used and the translations are horribly out of date.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think it is best to remove the translations from the docs site
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 12:27 PM, Jan Piotrowski <
>> piotrowski@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Andrey,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> you are certainly not wrong. While cleaning up cordova-docs
>>>>>>> documentation (about how to develop and build the documentation
>>>>>>> website) I found many bits and pieces of processes that seem to have
>>>>>>> worked one time, including many things about translations. I don't
>>>>>>> know why or when this all got broken by what changes and what the
>> plan
>>>>>>> was back then.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So I just collected all that content at
>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/cordova-docs/blob/master/doc/translate.md
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But as this unfortunately doesn't seem to have been used in the last
>>>>>>> ~2 years, the current state is - in my opinion - too broken to fix
>>>>>>> (without major effort).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>> Jan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2018-02-27 19:18 GMT+01:00 Andrey Kurdumov <kant2002@googlemail.com
>>> :
>>>>>>>> From my perspective, as a person who was trying to do translation of
>>>>>>> Russian language alone, translation is already bankrupted after new
>>>>> docs
>>>>>>> website design was implemented.
>>>>>>>> The reason for my opinion was following
>>>>>>>> - Documentation website was changed without thinking that keep
>>>>>>> translation intact is difficult. As a result it was broken
>>>>>>>> - People who change generation of website seriously think that
>>>>> machine
>>>>>>> translated content is usable. I recommend them read in Chinese recent
>>>>>>> articles in computational biology, or for example latest news about
>>>>>>> politics each day and try to understand not ‘idea’ of what’s going
>> on,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> actually understand details.
>>>>>>>> - All tools which I create to support quick iteration of
>> translations
>>>>>>> has to be rewritten in the new implementation and now has to be
>>>>>>> re-implemented.
>>>>>>>> - During migration all files was changed location and has to be
>>>>>>> revalidated again for whole docs
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If documentation website would not be touched, and if any change in
>>>>>>> implementation of docs website could be vetoed by people who do
>>>>>>> localization, I don’t see point investing time in the localization to
>>>>> my
>>>>>>> native language again. If I finish Russian , I could start
>> translating
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> Ukrainian after that, since this is language which I also know
>>>>> relatively
>>>>>>> good.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Translation is time consuming, and if such efforts would be
>> discarded
>>>>>>> just for pure change of internal implementation, there no reason to
>>>>> even
>>>>>>> try.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: Jan Piotrowski
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 7:22 PM
>>>>>>>> To: dev
>>>>>>>> Subject: Translation Bankruptcy?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> while doing some work on cordova-docs I also took a look at the
>>>>>>>> translations again.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Translations are (theoretically) done on Crowdin, synced from and to
>>>>>>> Github:
>>>>>>>> https://crowdin.com/project/cordova
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Unfortunately this doesn't really seem to work:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1. There is no (working) documentation on how to import or export
>>>>>>>> files from or to Crowdin:
>>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/cordova-docs/blob/master/doc/translate.md
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2. There is no way to figure out the current state of the
>>>>> translations
>>>>>>>> vs. the actual documentation.
>>>>>>>> 3. From looking at the languages I understand: Translations are
>>>>> _very_
>>>>>>>> outdated vs. the actual documentation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 4. There are translated files for files that do not exist in English
>>>>>> any
>>>>>>> more:
>>>>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CB-13161
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 5. There seem to be lots of auto translated bits in different
>>>>>>>> languages, also Source Code and other technical stuff was
>>>>>>>> (automatically) translated in several languages:
>>>>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CB-11414
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To summarize:
>>>>>>>> No translating is happening because of the above facts. The current
>>>>>>>> translations are out of date, unmaintained, contra productive or
>> even
>>>>>>>> misleading.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My suggestion:
>>>>>>>> Let's just face it and declare translation bankruptcy.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We remove all translated content from the docs repo (latest + dev
>>>>>>>> version only) and redirect each link to the matching English
>> version.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Agree?
>>>>>>>> Disagree?
>>>>>>>> Suggestions?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>> Jan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> ---------
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---------
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>>
>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
Re: Translation Bankruptcy?
Posted by Andrey Kurdumov <ka...@googlemail.com>.
This line "#1. That developers who work on docs would be aware of process
how translation is done."
means for me following, I try to by analogy. Development to Testing is same
as Writing Docs to Translation.
Developer could easy write code without any testing, but to write testable
code it should be at least aware, that somebody would in the future test
it. Also helps to be aware about testing process.
Exactly the same here. Write docs is one thing, but writing docs which
could be translated a little bit other thing. I could give exact details
with examples from my experience translating Cordova if you like. But this
is a gist, otherwise I have write very long mail.
Hope this clarify my thoughts a bit.
2018-04-02 7:50 GMT+03:00 Dmitry Blotsky <dm...@gmail.com>:
> Andrey, I agree with your point that ideally, the process just works. I
> think we can achieve this, but it still needs some development work.
>
> On your point #1, what exactly do you mean when you say that developers
> who work on docs should be aware of the translation process?
>
> - Dmitry
>
> > On Mar 9, 2018, at 3:44 AM, Andrey Kurdumov <ka...@googlemail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > I could say, that I still around since Cordova, since I have applications
> > written in it.
> > The problems in first place with translation and CrowdIn when I last time
> > working with them is not the actual tooling, but whole workflow which
> > include translation.
> >
> > You could think about translation of docs process in the same way as you
> > think supporting of the implementation of library in different languages
> > would happens.
> > 1. You should put some limitation n the code you wrote (Simpler phrases
> > better translated with automation help).
> > 2. You should be careful with refactoring, since new code has to be
> > implemented in second language. (You should rephrase the text each time,
> > significant portion of text is re-written)
> >
> > Some specifics is that CrowdIn impose restrictions on the translation.
> > Uploading of the docs is not that big piece of whole translation.
> > Biggest problem for me is shaking the tree structure of the docs. There
> > some other issues, but let's limit discussion points.
> >
> > I would like to have following:
> > 1. That developers who work on docs would be aware of process how
> > translation is done.
> > 2. Establish some semi-formal workflow where I (any representative of
> > translation team) have ability to veto changes in docs which could lead
> to
> > disruption of translation work.
> > actually item 1 is enough, since item 2 automagically appear out of it.
> >
> > Without that, I think it is not practical for me translate docs, since
> all
> > work could be gone.
> >
> > I believe that translation process is more important then tool at this
> > point, since tools naturally arise from the process. That's answer on the
> > Dmitry proposal to revisit tools.
> >
> > Steve share concerns that Cordova community is limited on resources to
> > support translation. This is valid concerns, but same could be said about
> > testing and continuous integration.
> > People just follow established processes and everything just work. Same
> way
> > of thinking could be applied to translation.
> >
> > I still want to bring good Russian translation to Cordova. Maintaining
> > separate website is require to me do advertise for it to gain traction.
> In
> > case of having it on Cordova website make it visible to many people.
> >
> >
> >
> > 2018-03-09 2:00 GMT+02:00 Dmitry Blotsky <dm...@gmail.com>:
> >
> >> Hey all,
> >>
> >> Any thoughts on this?
> >>
> >> Kindly,
> >> Dmitry
> >>
> >>> On Mar 2, 2018, at 12:24 AM, Dmitry Blotsky <dm...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hey guys,
> >>>
> >>> Glad that Steve linked me to this discussion.
> >>>
> >>> The translation content on Crowdin is out of date because it needs to
> >> get “synced” with the English version.
> >>> The translation content in the repo is out of date because it needs to
> >> get “synced” with the Crowdin version.
> >>>
> >>> Neither of those steps is being done, as far as I know.
> >>>
> >>> Both of those steps were automated in an almost-finished state when I
> >> was last at Microsoft (April 2016), but they never made it into master.
> It
> >> was my goal to get translations become a part of the automated build,
> just
> >> like everything else, but it was deprioritised as a work task, and I
> didn’t
> >> have enough time to do it as an at-home task.
> >>>
> >>> Having said that, I’ll be done my master’s this April. If you think it
> >> might be useful, I can dedicate some cycles to finishing that
> automation.
> >> That way, on every commit (à la Travis), Crowdin will get “synced” with
> the
> >> English version, and the translation content will get “synced” with the
> >> Crowdin version.
> >>>
> >>> As an interim solution for the next short while, I think we can still
> >> remove translations for some languages for the latest versions, and
> point
> >> their “latest” and “dev" links to English where they don’t have a
> “latest”
> >> or “dev” translation.
> >>>
> >>> Finally, as a general point, I think the project needs someone who’s
> >> working on Cordova at least part-time (half a week each week), and knows
> >> the current site top to bottom. This is why I’m around Slack and GitHub
> >> still. After the docs/site merge, I think I’m the only one who’s left
> who
> >> has in-depth knowledge of the new code. Andrey, are you still on Cordova
> >> for a significant amount of time? If so, do you want to meet at some
> point
> >> to make a plan to audit the docs tools?
> >>>
> >>> Kindly,
> >>> Dmitry
> >>>
> >>>> On Feb 28, 2018, at 6:10 PM, Steven Gill <st...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Created an issue for this: https://issues.apache.org/
> >> jira/browse/CB-13931
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 1:41 PM, Jesse <pu...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> +1 to bankruptcy
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The translation system was designed at a time where we had major
> >>>>> contributions from google, ibm, intel, microsoft ... which sadly has
> >> fallen
> >>>>> off.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> We should encourage community member to provide their own
> >> translations, via
> >>>>> their own sites. I believe Monaca has a considerable about of
> Japanese
> >>>>> material.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> @purplecabbage
> >>>>> risingj.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 1:25 PM, Steven Gill <stevengill97@gmail.com
> >
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I agree with your suggestion Jan. I don't think we as a project have
> >> the
> >>>>>> resources to manage translations. The process in place today is not
> >> being
> >>>>>> used and the translations are horribly out of date.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I think it is best to remove the translations from the docs site
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 12:27 PM, Jan Piotrowski <
> >> piotrowski@gmail.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi Andrey,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> you are certainly not wrong. While cleaning up cordova-docs
> >>>>>>> documentation (about how to develop and build the documentation
> >>>>>>> website) I found many bits and pieces of processes that seem to
> have
> >>>>>>> worked one time, including many things about translations. I don't
> >>>>>>> know why or when this all got broken by what changes and what the
> >> plan
> >>>>>>> was back then.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> So I just collected all that content at
> >>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/cordova-docs/blob/master/doc/
> translate.md
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> But as this unfortunately doesn't seem to have been used in the
> last
> >>>>>>> ~2 years, the current state is - in my opinion - too broken to fix
> >>>>>>> (without major effort).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>> Jan
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 2018-02-27 19:18 GMT+01:00 Andrey Kurdumov <
> kant2002@googlemail.com
> >>> :
> >>>>>>>> From my perspective, as a person who was trying to do translation
> of
> >>>>>>> Russian language alone, translation is already bankrupted after new
> >>>>> docs
> >>>>>>> website design was implemented.
> >>>>>>>> The reason for my opinion was following
> >>>>>>>> - Documentation website was changed without thinking that keep
> >>>>>>> translation intact is difficult. As a result it was broken
> >>>>>>>> - People who change generation of website seriously think that
> >>>>> machine
> >>>>>>> translated content is usable. I recommend them read in Chinese
> recent
> >>>>>>> articles in computational biology, or for example latest news about
> >>>>>>> politics each day and try to understand not ‘idea’ of what’s going
> >> on,
> >>>>>> but
> >>>>>>> actually understand details.
> >>>>>>>> - All tools which I create to support quick iteration of
> >> translations
> >>>>>>> has to be rewritten in the new implementation and now has to be
> >>>>>>> re-implemented.
> >>>>>>>> - During migration all files was changed location and has to be
> >>>>>>> revalidated again for whole docs
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> If documentation website would not be touched, and if any change
> in
> >>>>>>> implementation of docs website could be vetoed by people who do
> >>>>>>> localization, I don’t see point investing time in the localization
> to
> >>>>> my
> >>>>>>> native language again. If I finish Russian , I could start
> >> translating
> >>>>> to
> >>>>>>> Ukrainian after that, since this is language which I also know
> >>>>> relatively
> >>>>>>> good.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Translation is time consuming, and if such efforts would be
> >> discarded
> >>>>>>> just for pure change of internal implementation, there no reason to
> >>>>> even
> >>>>>>> try.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> From: Jan Piotrowski
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 7:22 PM
> >>>>>>>> To: dev
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Translation Bankruptcy?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hi all,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> while doing some work on cordova-docs I also took a look at the
> >>>>>>>> translations again.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Translations are (theoretically) done on Crowdin, synced from and
> to
> >>>>>>> Github:
> >>>>>>>> https://crowdin.com/project/cordova
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Unfortunately this doesn't really seem to work:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 1. There is no (working) documentation on how to import or export
> >>>>>>>> files from or to Crowdin:
> >>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/cordova-docs/blob/master/doc/
> translate.md
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 2. There is no way to figure out the current state of the
> >>>>> translations
> >>>>>>>> vs. the actual documentation.
> >>>>>>>> 3. From looking at the languages I understand: Translations are
> >>>>> _very_
> >>>>>>>> outdated vs. the actual documentation.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 4. There are translated files for files that do not exist in
> English
> >>>>>> any
> >>>>>>> more:
> >>>>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CB-13161
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 5. There seem to be lots of auto translated bits in different
> >>>>>>>> languages, also Source Code and other technical stuff was
> >>>>>>>> (automatically) translated in several languages:
> >>>>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CB-11414
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> To summarize:
> >>>>>>>> No translating is happening because of the above facts. The
> current
> >>>>>>>> translations are out of date, unmaintained, contra productive or
> >> even
> >>>>>>>> misleading.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> My suggestion:
> >>>>>>>> Let's just face it and declare translation bankruptcy.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> We remove all translated content from the docs repo (latest + dev
> >>>>>>>> version only) and redirect each link to the matching English
> >> version.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Agree?
> >>>>>>>> Disagree?
> >>>>>>>> Suggestions?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Best,
> >>>>>>>> Jan
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> ---------
> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> ---------
> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
> >>
> >>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@cordova.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@cordova.apache.org
>
>