New mod_perl Logo

["Jonathan M. Hollin" <ne...@digital-word.com>]

As many of you are aware, a new mod_perl website is currently being
developed and is near to going live.  To accompany the new site, and
with mod_perl 2.0 development well under way, I have initiated a
competition to find a new mod_perl logo.

Therefore, I am asking any budding artists/designers amongst you to
submit your efforts to myself (mod_perl@digital-word.com).  I will make
all submissions available for public review on the web at:
http://wypug.digital-word.com/mod_perl/ (where a few designs are even
now awaiting your perusal).  Once I have accumulated enough variety, I
will run a voting booth so that the winning design can be democratically
chosen.

The reward for your efforts:  Eternal fame and fortune, glamour,
admiration, kudos, etc...  Well, at the very least, you will get the
pleasure of seeing your design every time you visit the mod_perl
website.  It also possible that you would be credited by name/alias
within the site.

So come on folks, fire up the GIMP/PhotoShop and get to work.  There are
no rules, no preconceived ideas and no restrictions.  You can use the
exisiting icons of mod_perl (the camel, Apache feather, eagle, etc), or
go for something entirely new - it's up to you.

Ideas for logos, banners, "powered by"-type buttons are all welcome.

Please don't send submissions to the mailing list(s) - send them
directly to me (mod_perl@digital-word.com).

May the best man win.  :-)


Jonathan M. Hollin - WYPUG Co-ordinator
West Yorkshire Perl User Group
http://wypug.pm.org/

NOTE:  The WYPUG webserver is not very stable at the moment.  If the
site is unavailable, then please try again a little later.  We're
working on a solution right now...

Re: New mod_perl Logo

[Perrin Harkins <pe...@elem.com>]

I respectfully request that people quit bitching about the name.  The name
describes exactly what mod_perl is, and is widely known despite what some
HTML-jockeys at a conference might say.  I can't believe it's any worse than
dumb-ass names like "Java Servlets" and "Enterprise Java Beans" (a name so
dumb people always use the acronym), or even PHP ("Professional Home
Pages?").

If you really want to do something to help market mod_perl, writing articles
and speaking at conferences has worked pretty well for me.  I got a
discussion of mod_perl for large sites onto the front page of Slashdot by
doing this, and more people read Slashdot than just Perl geeks.

- Perrin

Re: New mod_perl Logo

[Bill Moseley <mo...@hank.org>]

At 07:29 PM 01/29/02 -0500, Chris Thompson wrote:
>Well, I'd like to just throw one idea into the mix. It's something that's
>bugged me for a long time, no better time than the present.
>
>"mod_perl" is a lousy name.

I don't know about "lousy", but I do agree.   I brought this up on the
docs-dev list:

  http://search.apache.org/archives/docs-dev/0236.html

During the week I posted that I had run into PHP programmers at a computer
show, more PHP programmers at a pub (2 in the afternoon -- more out of work
programmers), and ended up talking with a couple of Java programmers one
day.  The amazing thing was they all had a completely weird idea about what
mod_perl is or what it does.  And all thought it was slow, old, dead, not
scalable,  technology.  And that was from programmers, not managers.  We
all know there is a lot of misinformation out there.

Marketing is not everything, but it's a lot!  What we know of "mod_perl" is
more than just perl+Apache, really.  It's a development platform, or
development suite.  It can be anything our marketing department says it is. ;)

In these tough economic times, repackaging might be helpful.  Who knows?

And for some of us we know that mod_perl is also something that makes up a
chunk of our livelihood.  So, the promotion of mod_perl is quite important,
unless we want to start spending more afternoons with those PHP programmers
down at the corner pub.

So how would a group like the mod_perl community promote itself in new
ways?  Well, other professionals often have professional organizations or
associations to represent and promote their members.  I wonder if there are
there enough mod_perl programmers to support something like that.  Even if
there were, what could be done?  Run a few print ads in magazines that
system admins read?  Hire an ad firm for help in developing our "brand?"
mod_perl coffee mugs? ("Tired of that old cup of Java?")  Free mod_perl
clinics?  Hard to imagine any of that actually happening, really.

So what's a group of programmers to do?

The new web site should help, to some degree, but I'm not sure it will
change any manager's mind on the technology they pick to run their
applications.

Of course, most people here have access to big pipes.  So, there's always
bulk mail ads.  I got mail just today saying that it's an effective way to
advertise.  In fact I got about ten of those today!


-- 
Bill Moseley
mailto:moseley@hank.org

Re: New mod_perl Logo

[Gunther Birznieks <gu...@extropia.com>]

I agree. mod_perl is a technology not a platform. Java is called Java, 
Servlets are called Servlets, but products on top of the technology (eg app 
servers) are usually have the name "Orwellian Pearlz Factory".

If you wanted to use a marketing name, you should have just told them you 
were using one of the frameworks on top of mod_perl like AxKit or Mason.

At 08:59 AM 1/30/2002, Robin Berjon wrote:
>Hi ct !
>
>On Wednesday 30 January 2002 01:29, Chris Thompson wrote:
> > Well, I'd like to just throw one idea into the mix. It's something that's
> > bugged me for a long time, no better time than the present.
> >
> > "mod_perl" is a lousy name.
> >
> > There, I've said it.
>
>This discussion has occured already. The conclusion was simple: the name
>won't change. Doug cut the talk saying that he won't change the name, and I
>must say I agree.
>
>That isn't to say your points are invalid, you're concern is justified. The
>solution here is not to change modperl's name. modperl, in a way, is a low
>level thing. It's "just" Perl + Apache. When in need of a convincing name,
>say "I use Foo" where Foo is the name of something that runs on top of
>modperl. "I use AxKit", "I use FooAppFramework", etc. can sound a lot better.
>
>Of course, on top of that you need a good looking website with marketing
>talk. In any case changing the name alone doesn't help. Website content
>welcome ;-)
>
>--
>_______________________________________________________________________
>Robin Berjon <ro...@knowscape.com> -- CTO
>k n o w s c a p e : // venture knowledge agency www.knowscape.com
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Paranoids are people, too; they have their own problems.  It's easy
>to criticize, but if everybody hated you, you'd be paranoid too.

__________________________________________________
Gunther Birznieks (gunther.birznieks@eXtropia.com)
eXtropia - The Open Web Technology Company
http://www.eXtropia.com/

Re: New mod_perl Logo

[Joe Pearson <jo...@webdms.com>]

I really don't think a catchy name would have helped in your case.  Your
management, like many others, prefer to "manage by magazine".   And we all
know who is in all the magazines.

If your management did not like Perl, why not try java, c or php?
If your management did not like MySQL, why not Postgres, Sybase, Oracle,
Informix?

My point is it would not matter.  The issue was not Perl, the real issue was
that it was  not a Microsoft product.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Thompson" <ct...@cthompson.com>
To: <mo...@apache.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: New mod_perl Logo


> On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, Jonathan M. Hollin wrote:
> > Ideas for logos, banners, "powered by"-type buttons are all welcome.
>
> Well, I'd like to just throw one idea into the mix. It's something that's
> bugged me for a long time, no better time than the present.
>
> "mod_perl" is a lousy name.
>
> There, I've said it.
>
> For any number of reasons, perl does now and will always face an uphill
> struggle in any "Enterprise" application.
>
> For example, at my place of employment, we just went through a rather
> arduous task that I fought against and lost.
>
> We had a production site that handled a decent amount of traffic. Apache,
> mod_perl, Linux and MySQL. It ran and ran with almost no intervention.
>
> The management team of the company that bought us a year ago had been
trying
> to force a change in the product by throwing up various arguments, which
> were always false. ("MySQL doesnt support Transaction", "Yes it does".
"But
> they arent atomic.", "Yes they are". "Well, you can't roll them back.",
"Yes
> you can.")
>
> In the end, I lost. From October to mid January they set about taking our
> fully functional product and "replatforming" it to Win2k/IIS/ASP+VB/MSSQL.
> The final reason? "Responsible enterprises do not use perl."
>
> mod_perl needs a name. Something marketable, something catchy. The java
> folks learned that a long time ago. Their systems are called
> "Tomcat/Jakarta" and "Cocoon" and "Resin".
>
> THAT, in my opinion, is what should happen for mod_perl 2.0. It should be
> "Adirondack" or "Orwell" or any other generic, innocuous name. Even
> "MonkeyButter v1.0" is probably a better deal than mod_perl.
>
> As for logos, Avoiding Camels or Eagles is a requirement. I don't blame
ORA
> for requiring the trademark notices, the twisted concepts of US trademark
> law REQUIRE them to do that. The first time they didnt, they could lose
> their trademark. But we should have a "mascot" that makes sense and is
OURS.
> Linux has the penguin, OpenBSD has the blowfish, the other BSD's have the
> devil. Those images are clearly associated with those products, and can be
> used WITHOUT corporate approval.
>
> --
> _______________
> Chris Thompson

Re: New mod_perl Logo

[Robin Berjon <ro...@knowscape.com>]

Hi ct !

On Wednesday 30 January 2002 01:29, Chris Thompson wrote:
> Well, I'd like to just throw one idea into the mix. It's something that's
> bugged me for a long time, no better time than the present.
>
> "mod_perl" is a lousy name.
>
> There, I've said it.

This discussion has occured already. The conclusion was simple: the name 
won't change. Doug cut the talk saying that he won't change the name, and I 
must say I agree.

That isn't to say your points are invalid, you're concern is justified. The 
solution here is not to change modperl's name. modperl, in a way, is a low 
level thing. It's "just" Perl + Apache. When in need of a convincing name, 
say "I use Foo" where Foo is the name of something that runs on top of 
modperl. "I use AxKit", "I use FooAppFramework", etc. can sound a lot better.

Of course, on top of that you need a good looking website with marketing 
talk. In any case changing the name alone doesn't help. Website content 
welcome ;-)

-- 
_______________________________________________________________________
Robin Berjon <ro...@knowscape.com> -- CTO
k n o w s c a p e : // venture knowledge agency www.knowscape.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Paranoids are people, too; they have their own problems.  It's easy
to criticize, but if everybody hated you, you'd be paranoid too.

Re: New mod_perl Logo

[Aaron Johnson <so...@gina.net>]

Thanks for sharing your opinion and it has brought up some of my own
that I had held in reserve for sometime now.

I would 100% agree with a claim that a name is effecting usage if we
were selling a food product or something else to the general public, but
even then far more products have failed because they weren't properly
explained to the public.  mod_perl is a beast of tool/product.  It
harnesses the full power of Apache web server and Perl to allow you do
dam near anything with the data you need to handle.  Apache because of
its large platform support and well designed architecture has proven
that it is enterprise ready.  That brings me to the rub of this
discussion however, Perl.  I love Perl, I use Perl for almost every
programming task that I need in my work and personal computing use. 
That isn't enough though.  Perl has a rep, MySQL has a rep too.  These
*once* true statements such as "Its just a scripting language for Unix"
or "It doesn't support transactions" etc. are becoming more and more the
cripples of the acceptance not the name.  These great and power products
don't have someone dispelling the myths on national television while
none computer managers are watching TV, they only remember what the last
consultant said.  I am not knocking managers I am just showing human
nature, that is we don't change our opinions unless someone we trust
(the TV? ) more then the last person explains clearly why we should.

We have had several discussions over the last three years on this list
about advocating mod_perl. I think what it really boils down to is a
polished web presence and a strong statement of the power and efficiency
of the product at hand and in this case a <place your favorite open
source application here> page to refute known myths.

Aaron Johnson


Chris Thompson wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, Jonathan M. Hollin wrote:
> > Ideas for logos, banners, "powered by"-type buttons are all welcome.
> 
> Well, I'd like to just throw one idea into the mix. It's something that's
> bugged me for a long time, no better time than the present.
> 
> "mod_perl" is a lousy name.
> 
> There, I've said it.
> 
> For any number of reasons, perl does now and will always face an uphill
> struggle in any "Enterprise" application.
> 
> For example, at my place of employment, we just went through a rather
> arduous task that I fought against and lost.
> 
> We had a production site that handled a decent amount of traffic. Apache,
> mod_perl, Linux and MySQL. It ran and ran with almost no intervention.
> 
> The management team of the company that bought us a year ago had been trying
> to force a change in the product by throwing up various arguments, which
> were always false. ("MySQL doesnt support Transaction", "Yes it does". "But
> they arent atomic.", "Yes they are". "Well, you can't roll them back.", "Yes
> you can.")
> 
> In the end, I lost. From October to mid January they set about taking our
> fully functional product and "replatforming" it to Win2k/IIS/ASP+VB/MSSQL.
> The final reason? "Responsible enterprises do not use perl."
> 
> mod_perl needs a name. Something marketable, something catchy. The java
> folks learned that a long time ago. Their systems are called
> "Tomcat/Jakarta" and "Cocoon" and "Resin".
> 
> THAT, in my opinion, is what should happen for mod_perl 2.0. It should be
> "Adirondack" or "Orwell" or any other generic, innocuous name. Even
> "MonkeyButter v1.0" is probably a better deal than mod_perl.
> 
> As for logos, Avoiding Camels or Eagles is a requirement. I don't blame ORA
> for requiring the trademark notices, the twisted concepts of US trademark
> law REQUIRE them to do that. The first time they didnt, they could lose
> their trademark. But we should have a "mascot" that makes sense and is OURS.
> Linux has the penguin, OpenBSD has the blowfish, the other BSD's have the
> devil. Those images are clearly associated with those products, and can be
> used WITHOUT corporate approval.
> 
> --
> _______________
> Chris Thompson

Re: New mod_perl Logo

[Gunther Birznieks <gu...@extropia.com>]

How could another name look nice on your resume if they don't know what it is ?

Why don't you just "nickname" mod_perl as something else and then put THAT 
name on your resume if you are so concerned about naming.

At 09:36 PM 1/30/2002, Paul Cotter wrote:

>  > > "mod_perl" is a lousy name.
>
>It is causing me a problem. My potential customers have heard of Perl and
>Apache, MySql and Postgres, but they dot like the idea of perl modifying the
>Apache processing. It strikes them as tinkering round with the internals and
>liable to cause problems 'when we upgrade' or 'move to another platform'. It
>also does not look good on a resume when you are sending it to someone who
>has never heard of it. You are never quite sure whether to Wordcap it or
>not. Give it some other marketting name, even if it keeps its original name
>in places like this. Anything will do, WebBlast, Insiouxiance, Perlandra,
>Exsight, Insite, HowtoSite - I really do not mind.
>
>Regards - Paul Cotter

__________________________________________________
Gunther Birznieks (gunther.birznieks@eXtropia.com)
eXtropia - The Open Web Technology Company
http://www.eXtropia.com/

Re: New mod_perl Logo

[Gunther Birznieks <gu...@extropia.com>]

At 04:50 PM 1/31/2002, brian moseley wrote:
>On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, Paul Cotter wrote:
>
> > Give it some other marketting name, even if it keeps its
> > original name in places like this.
>
>didn't you people read perrin's message?
>
>do you think this is the first time this topic has been
>discussed? do you think it's gonna change doug's mind /this/
>time?
>
>if you can't sell your customers and bosses on mod_perl
>because of its technological appropriateness, the name of
>the software is the least of your problems.

I was thinking if we renamed mod_perl as "George Bush" it would do quite 
well in the political polls. Might even be elected for president. And then 
we'd rule the country!!

Re: New mod_perl Logo

[Ron Savage <ro...@savage.net.au>]

Paul

How about attaching a copy of _the_ mod_perl book each time you send out your resume. The recipients should be impressed and thus
realize it's a Real Program, and I'm sure the authors would consider a bulk discount :-).

(Having worked only 2 out of the last 8 months I do appreciate your position).

Cheers
Ron Savage
ron@savage.net.au
http://savage.net.au/index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Cotter" <pa...@powermagic.net>
To: <mo...@apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:36 AM
Subject: Re: New mod_perl Logo


>
>  > > "mod_perl" is a lousy name.
>
> It is causing me a problem. My potential customers have heard of Perl and

Re: New mod_perl Logo

[brian moseley <bc...@maz.org>]

On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, Paul Cotter wrote:

> Give it some other marketting name, even if it keeps its
> original name in places like this.

didn't you people read perrin's message?

do you think this is the first time this topic has been
discussed? do you think it's gonna change doug's mind /this/
time?

if you can't sell your customers and bosses on mod_perl
because of its technological appropriateness, the name of
the software is the least of your problems.

Re: New mod_perl Logo

[Paul Cotter <pa...@powermagic.net>]

 > > "mod_perl" is a lousy name.

It is causing me a problem. My potential customers have heard of Perl and
Apache, MySql and Postgres, but they dot like the idea of perl modifying the
Apache processing. It strikes them as tinkering round with the internals and
liable to cause problems 'when we upgrade' or 'move to another platform'. It
also does not look good on a resume when you are sending it to someone who
has never heard of it. You are never quite sure whether to Wordcap it or
not. Give it some other marketting name, even if it keeps its original name
in places like this. Anything will do, WebBlast, Insiouxiance, Perlandra,
Exsight, Insite, HowtoSite - I really do not mind.

Regards - Paul Cotter

Re: New mod_perl Logo

[Dave Hodgkinson <da...@davehodgkinson.com>]

Ged Haywood <ge...@www2.jubileegroup.co.uk> writes:

> Hi there,
> 
> On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, Chris Thompson wrote:
> 
> > "mod_perl" is a lousy name.
> [snip]
> > mod_perl needs a name. Something marketable, something catchy.
> 
> How about "BigFoot"?

Sasquatch.


-- 
Dave Hodgkinson, Wizard for Hire         http://www.davehodgkinson.com
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star           http://www.deep-purple.com
   Interim Technical Director, Web Architecture Consultant for hire

[OT] Re: New mod_perl name was [Re: New mod_perl Logo]

[Joe Schaefer <jo...@sunstarsys.com>]

___cliff rayman___ <cl...@genwax.com> writes:

> how about Everest?  Niagara? Multiphase? Slipstream?
> DigiServer? Pointillion? Web Mammoth? SharpWeb?
> Web Enterprise?  EnterWeb?

  % perl -wlne 'print if "delmopr" eq join "", sort /./g' dictionary
  premold
  %

Actually I just wish we could standardize on one of either
"mod_perl" or "modperl", so I can stop bouncing emails off 
to the wrong list :)


-- 
Joe Schaefer

New mod_perl name was [Re: New mod_perl Logo]

[___cliff rayman___ <cl...@genwax.com>]

how about Everest?  Niagara? Multiphase? Slipstream?
DigiServer? Pointillion? Web Mammoth? SharpWeb?
Web Enterprise?  EnterWeb?

Ged Haywood wrote:

> Hi there,
>
> On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, Chris Thompson wrote:
>
> > "mod_perl" is a lousy name.
> [snip]
> > mod_perl needs a name. Something marketable, something catchy.
>
> How about "BigFoot"?
>
> 73,
> Ged.

--
___cliff rayman___cliff@genwax.com___http://www.genwax.com/

Re: New mod_perl Logo

[Ged Haywood <ge...@www2.jubileegroup.co.uk>]

Hi there,

On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, Chris Thompson wrote:

> "mod_perl" is a lousy name.
[snip]
> mod_perl needs a name. Something marketable, something catchy.

How about "BigFoot"?

73,
Ged.

Re: New mod_perl Logo

[John Armstrong <si...@siberian.org>]

I could not agree more. I can not compute how much of my time would have 
been saved over the last few years had I been able to say something 
like  'We are using the Orwellian AppSphere 2002 running on Apache' to 
VC's and management rather then 'Mod Perl'.....

Perception counts.... I am affectionate towards the mod_perl name after 
so many years but its really not optimal.

John-


On Tuesday, January 29, 2002, at 04:29 PM, Chris Thompson wrote:

> On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, Jonathan M. Hollin wrote:
>> Ideas for logos, banners, "powered by"-type buttons are all welcome.
>
> Well, I'd like to just throw one idea into the mix. It's something 
> that's
> bugged me for a long time, no better time than the present.
>
> "mod_perl" is a lousy name.
>
> There, I've said it.
>
> For any number of reasons, perl does now and will always face an uphill
> struggle in any "Enterprise" application.

Re: New mod_perl Logo

[Chris Thompson <ct...@cthompson.com>]

On Tue, 29 Jan 2002, Jonathan M. Hollin wrote:
> Ideas for logos, banners, "powered by"-type buttons are all welcome.

Well, I'd like to just throw one idea into the mix. It's something that's
bugged me for a long time, no better time than the present.

"mod_perl" is a lousy name.

There, I've said it.

For any number of reasons, perl does now and will always face an uphill
struggle in any "Enterprise" application.

For example, at my place of employment, we just went through a rather
arduous task that I fought against and lost.

We had a production site that handled a decent amount of traffic. Apache,
mod_perl, Linux and MySQL. It ran and ran with almost no intervention.

The management team of the company that bought us a year ago had been trying
to force a change in the product by throwing up various arguments, which
were always false. ("MySQL doesnt support Transaction", "Yes it does". "But
they arent atomic.", "Yes they are". "Well, you can't roll them back.", "Yes
you can.")

In the end, I lost. From October to mid January they set about taking our
fully functional product and "replatforming" it to Win2k/IIS/ASP+VB/MSSQL.
The final reason? "Responsible enterprises do not use perl."

mod_perl needs a name. Something marketable, something catchy. The java
folks learned that a long time ago. Their systems are called
"Tomcat/Jakarta" and "Cocoon" and "Resin".

THAT, in my opinion, is what should happen for mod_perl 2.0. It should be
"Adirondack" or "Orwell" or any other generic, innocuous name. Even
"MonkeyButter v1.0" is probably a better deal than mod_perl.

As for logos, Avoiding Camels or Eagles is a requirement. I don't blame ORA
for requiring the trademark notices, the twisted concepts of US trademark
law REQUIRE them to do that. The first time they didnt, they could lose
their trademark. But we should have a "mascot" that makes sense and is OURS.
Linux has the penguin, OpenBSD has the blowfish, the other BSD's have the
devil. Those images are clearly associated with those products, and can be
used WITHOUT corporate approval.

-- 
_______________
Chris Thompson