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Posted to dev@tuscany.apache.org by Venkata Krishnan <fo...@gmail.com> on 2006/08/01 07:16:37 UTC
SCA Tools
Hi Jeremy / Jim / Rick / Ant and others
What is the decision about the sca-tools that existed in M1? Do we plan to
make it a part of the current Tuscany-Java as well? There is another thread
where David Wheeler was talking about samples around the Axis2 binding.
Wouldn't the sca tools, Java2WSDL & WSDL2Java get to be used there?
Thanks
- Venkat
Re: SCA Tools
Posted by Jim Marino <jm...@myromatours.com>.
On Aug 1, 2006, at 10:24 AM, Venkata Krishnan wrote:
> Hi Jeremy / Jim, first thanks for those answers.
>
> I am able to understand your perspectives. But just that one more
> question. If we do not generate a WSDL what do we publish for
> clients who
> which to connect to this component's service?
In most cases (i.e. communication within an SCA "system") we may
never need to generate WSDL. In some cases we may not be able to at
all, e.g. for local services which are not bound by WSDL constraints.
That said, when publishing a service over a "web service" binding for
consumption by a client outside an SCA system, we will likely have to
generate a WSDL. For most cases, the runtime should be able to handle
this generation transparently to users or be able to accept a WSDL in
a top-down scenario.
> How would client applications
> know about the service's interfaces and semantics?
>
It depends. If it is a client using SCA, then it resorts to whatever
the "interface language" is - e.g. Java interfaces. Under the covers,
it is up to the binding extension to sort things out.
Jim
> Thanks
>
> - Venkat
>
> On 8/1/06, Jim Marino <jm...@myromatours.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Aug 1, 2006, at 7:27 AM, Jeremy Boynes wrote:
>>
>> > On Aug 1, 2006, at 12:43 AM, Venkata Krishnan wrote:
>> >
>> >> Jim :-)))..
>> >>
>> >> Please help me understand the scope of "not required". If
>> >> something is not
>> >> required then why have it in the first place? Are these things no
>> >> longer
>> >> relevant to the current Tuscany-Java?
>> >
>> > Jim is echoing a goal that SCA should be simple enough to use and
>> > configure that additional tooling should not be required. For
>> > example, I should be able to look at a SCDL file and understand
>> > what it is doing, or I should be able to work with simple Java
>> > classes and have the runtime figure out what to do.
>> >
>> In the spec group we called this type of user the "notepad"
>> developer. I think this is an important goal for Tuscany as well. For
>> the SCDL I would probably go further and say in most cases it should
>> be trivial to hand-edit.
>>
>> > That's not to say that tooling cannot help - a specialized tool can
>> > make that SCDL file easier to view or edit, an IDE can make editing
>> > Java easier. But tools should be there to assist rather than be
>> > required because the underlying technology is so complex.
>> >
>> > Take for example, java2wsdl. If I am a simple Java developer, there
>> > is a good chance I do not know WSDL and have no interest in being
>> > forced to learn it. But the machinery here needs WSDL to
>> > interoperate with other systems. We can put WSDL in the user's face
>> > by having a tool that generates WSDL that they need to run as part
>> > of a build; alternatively, we can have the runtime handle all the
>> > WSDL stuff under the covers leaving the user in their Java comfort-
>> > zone. I think the latter is better, although we will still need the
>> > tool for those users who do want to use WSDL explicitly.
>> >
>> Both cases I think are important to support (hence "not required"),
>> although I think we should make more effort on the latter since, as
>> Jeremy said, most users probably don't have a need to see the WSDL
>> in bottom-up approaches. For top-down development, we will need to
>> support dealing with WSDL but should make that as straightforward as
>> possible.
>>
>> On the general question of whether to have something if it is not
>> required, I imagine most extensions in Tuscany will follow this
>> pattern.
>>
>> Jim
>> > --
>> > Jeremy
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: tuscany-dev-unsubscribe@ws.apache.org
>> > For additional commands, e-mail: tuscany-dev-help@ws.apache.org
>> >
>>
>>
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>>
>>
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Re: SCA Tools
Posted by Venkata Krishnan <fo...@gmail.com>.
Hi Jeremy / Jim, first thanks for those answers.
I am able to understand your perspectives. But just that one more
question. If we do not generate a WSDL what do we publish for clients who
which to connect to this component's service? How would client applications
know about the service's interfaces and semantics?
Thanks
- Venkat
On 8/1/06, Jim Marino <jm...@myromatours.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Aug 1, 2006, at 7:27 AM, Jeremy Boynes wrote:
>
> > On Aug 1, 2006, at 12:43 AM, Venkata Krishnan wrote:
> >
> >> Jim :-)))..
> >>
> >> Please help me understand the scope of "not required". If
> >> something is not
> >> required then why have it in the first place? Are these things no
> >> longer
> >> relevant to the current Tuscany-Java?
> >
> > Jim is echoing a goal that SCA should be simple enough to use and
> > configure that additional tooling should not be required. For
> > example, I should be able to look at a SCDL file and understand
> > what it is doing, or I should be able to work with simple Java
> > classes and have the runtime figure out what to do.
> >
> In the spec group we called this type of user the "notepad"
> developer. I think this is an important goal for Tuscany as well. For
> the SCDL I would probably go further and say in most cases it should
> be trivial to hand-edit.
>
> > That's not to say that tooling cannot help - a specialized tool can
> > make that SCDL file easier to view or edit, an IDE can make editing
> > Java easier. But tools should be there to assist rather than be
> > required because the underlying technology is so complex.
> >
> > Take for example, java2wsdl. If I am a simple Java developer, there
> > is a good chance I do not know WSDL and have no interest in being
> > forced to learn it. But the machinery here needs WSDL to
> > interoperate with other systems. We can put WSDL in the user's face
> > by having a tool that generates WSDL that they need to run as part
> > of a build; alternatively, we can have the runtime handle all the
> > WSDL stuff under the covers leaving the user in their Java comfort-
> > zone. I think the latter is better, although we will still need the
> > tool for those users who do want to use WSDL explicitly.
> >
> Both cases I think are important to support (hence "not required"),
> although I think we should make more effort on the latter since, as
> Jeremy said, most users probably don't have a need to see the WSDL
> in bottom-up approaches. For top-down development, we will need to
> support dealing with WSDL but should make that as straightforward as
> possible.
>
> On the general question of whether to have something if it is not
> required, I imagine most extensions in Tuscany will follow this pattern.
>
> Jim
> > --
> > Jeremy
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: tuscany-dev-unsubscribe@ws.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: tuscany-dev-help@ws.apache.org
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tuscany-dev-unsubscribe@ws.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tuscany-dev-help@ws.apache.org
>
>
Re: SCA Tools
Posted by Jim Marino <jm...@myromatours.com>.
On Aug 1, 2006, at 7:27 AM, Jeremy Boynes wrote:
> On Aug 1, 2006, at 12:43 AM, Venkata Krishnan wrote:
>
>> Jim :-)))..
>>
>> Please help me understand the scope of "not required". If
>> something is not
>> required then why have it in the first place? Are these things no
>> longer
>> relevant to the current Tuscany-Java?
>
> Jim is echoing a goal that SCA should be simple enough to use and
> configure that additional tooling should not be required. For
> example, I should be able to look at a SCDL file and understand
> what it is doing, or I should be able to work with simple Java
> classes and have the runtime figure out what to do.
>
In the spec group we called this type of user the "notepad"
developer. I think this is an important goal for Tuscany as well. For
the SCDL I would probably go further and say in most cases it should
be trivial to hand-edit.
> That's not to say that tooling cannot help - a specialized tool can
> make that SCDL file easier to view or edit, an IDE can make editing
> Java easier. But tools should be there to assist rather than be
> required because the underlying technology is so complex.
>
> Take for example, java2wsdl. If I am a simple Java developer, there
> is a good chance I do not know WSDL and have no interest in being
> forced to learn it. But the machinery here needs WSDL to
> interoperate with other systems. We can put WSDL in the user's face
> by having a tool that generates WSDL that they need to run as part
> of a build; alternatively, we can have the runtime handle all the
> WSDL stuff under the covers leaving the user in their Java comfort-
> zone. I think the latter is better, although we will still need the
> tool for those users who do want to use WSDL explicitly.
>
Both cases I think are important to support (hence "not required"),
although I think we should make more effort on the latter since, as
Jeremy said, most users probably don't have a need to see the WSDL
in bottom-up approaches. For top-down development, we will need to
support dealing with WSDL but should make that as straightforward as
possible.
On the general question of whether to have something if it is not
required, I imagine most extensions in Tuscany will follow this pattern.
Jim
> --
> Jeremy
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tuscany-dev-unsubscribe@ws.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tuscany-dev-help@ws.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: tuscany-dev-unsubscribe@ws.apache.org
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Re: SCA Tools
Posted by Jeremy Boynes <jb...@apache.org>.
On Aug 1, 2006, at 12:43 AM, Venkata Krishnan wrote:
> Jim :-)))..
>
> Please help me understand the scope of "not required". If
> something is not
> required then why have it in the first place? Are these things no
> longer
> relevant to the current Tuscany-Java?
Jim is echoing a goal that SCA should be simple enough to use and
configure that additional tooling should not be required. For
example, I should be able to look at a SCDL file and understand what
it is doing, or I should be able to work with simple Java classes and
have the runtime figure out what to do.
That's not to say that tooling cannot help - a specialized tool can
make that SCDL file easier to view or edit, an IDE can make editing
Java easier. But tools should be there to assist rather than be
required because the underlying technology is so complex.
Take for example, java2wsdl. If I am a simple Java developer, there
is a good chance I do not know WSDL and have no interest in being
forced to learn it. But the machinery here needs WSDL to interoperate
with other systems. We can put WSDL in the user's face by having a
tool that generates WSDL that they need to run as part of a build;
alternatively, we can have the runtime handle all the WSDL stuff
under the covers leaving the user in their Java comfort-zone. I think
the latter is better, although we will still need the tool for those
users who do want to use WSDL explicitly.
--
Jeremy
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Re: SCA Tools
Posted by Venkata Krishnan <fo...@gmail.com>.
Jim :-)))..
Please help me understand the scope of "not required". If something is not
required then why have it in the first place? Are these things no longer
relevant to the current Tuscany-Java?
Thanks
- Venkat
On 8/1/06, Jim Marino <jm...@myromatours.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Jul 31, 2006, at 10:16 PM, Venkata Krishnan wrote:
>
> > Hi Jeremy / Jim / Rick / Ant and others
> >
> > What is the decision about the sca-tools that existed in M1? Do we
> > plan to
> > make it a part of the current Tuscany-Java as well?
> I think tooling in general is a good thing to have (as long as it's
> not required).
> > There is another thread
> > where David Wheeler was talking about samples around the Axis2
> > binding.
> > Wouldn't the sca tools, Java2WSDL & WSDL2Java get to be used there?
> I'm not really sure. Maybe David could describe what he has further?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > - Venkat
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tuscany-dev-unsubscribe@ws.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tuscany-dev-help@ws.apache.org
>
>
Re: SCA Tools
Posted by Jim Marino <jm...@myromatours.com>.
On Jul 31, 2006, at 10:16 PM, Venkata Krishnan wrote:
> Hi Jeremy / Jim / Rick / Ant and others
>
> What is the decision about the sca-tools that existed in M1? Do we
> plan to
> make it a part of the current Tuscany-Java as well?
I think tooling in general is a good thing to have (as long as it's
not required).
> There is another thread
> where David Wheeler was talking about samples around the Axis2
> binding.
> Wouldn't the sca tools, Java2WSDL & WSDL2Java get to be used there?
I'm not really sure. Maybe David could describe what he has further?
>
> Thanks
>
> - Venkat
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