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Posted to general@jakarta.apache.org by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> on 2003/12/18 04:19:41 UTC
Just in case you're curious
The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on
private lists now.
--
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?
The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
> On Dec 17, 2003, at 10:19 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
>> The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on
>> private lists now.
>
> ----------------
> | Don't feed |
> | the trolls |
> ----------------
> |
> |
> |
> ------\|/--------
I must admit that that was my first reaction too, but observing the net
effect of this email, good discussions are happening on general@jakarta
because of it. Nothing in what I am about to say hasn't been said
before, but hopefully pulling it all together will help people put the
puzzle pieces together.
A few general comments:
* The assertion that decisions are being made on private lists is
laughable. The Jakarta bylaws are woefully out of date, as they were
based on a different era where there was a ruling few who were
responsible for wide oversight. Mostly what has been discussed on the
PMC mailing list is the process by which we decide the process to change
the bylaws. Exciting stuff, trust me. And for those who are
interested, decisions such as the one by log4j to become a project were
made on the log4j mailing lists, as they should be.
* The end goal is one where people feel empowered to make decisions.
Not empowered in the '80s management buzzword sense, but empowered in
terms of "don't look to the pmc to make decisions for you". Truth be
told, the simplest way to achieve this is to place everybody who might
potentially be affected by a decision on the PMC. So, we are embarking
on exactly that direction. Incrementally.
* This direction has implications. If person x is on the Jakarta PMC,
and codebase y is managed by Jakarta, then person x has a say over such
matters as any releases of codebase y. If this doesn't make sense, the
solution is to put codebase y into a separate PMC.
* There will always be discussions in private, particularly when they
involve people issues. A sister project recently had an issue dealing
with a person voted down to become a commmitter, and this had a negative
impact not only on that individual but on the community. This project
has since decided that all committer votes are to be done in private.
While Jakarta hasn't yet had such an experience, it is worth noting that
it is impossible to keep a secret when there are dozens of members on
the PMC, but it is possible to keep such discussions out of Google
searches and web archives.
- Sam Ruby
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On Dec 17, 2003, at 10:19 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on
> private lists now.
----------------
| Don't feed |
| the trolls |
----------------
|
|
|
------\|/--------
> --
> Andrew C. Oliver
> http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
> Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
>
> http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
> For Java and Excel, Got POI?
>
> The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are
> almost
> definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or
> its
> general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree
> with
> everything espoused in the above email.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
geir@4quarters.com
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 22:19:41 -0500
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on
> private lists now.
It would be okay unless all the decisions will have been made
on infrastructure@ list.
... ;-)
-- Tetsuya. (tetsuya@apache.org)
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by Serge Huber <sh...@jahia.com>.
At 04:19 AM 12/18/2003, you wrote:
>The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on
>private lists now.
Well at least it's honest. But it makes me wonder about the long term
effect of a private decision process in an open source group. It seems to
have almost destroyed the XFree86 project recently.
Just my 2ct...
Regards,
Serge Huber.
- -- --- -----=[ shuber2 at jahia dot com ]=---- --- -- -
www.jahia.org : A collaborative source CMS and Portal Server
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by Andy Armstrong <an...@tagish.com>.
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>> Who's the best person to nudge then? :)
>
> Anyone. Interested?
Yes, very much thanks.
--
Andy Armstrong, Tagish
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On Dec 18, 2003, at 5:39 PM, Dirk Verbeeck wrote:
> Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>> On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:30 AM, Andy Armstrong wrote:
>>> Henri Yandell wrote:
>>>
>>>> As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an
>>>> existing
>>>> member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
>>>
>>>
>>> Who's the best person to nudge then? :)
>> Anyone. Interested?
>
> Looks like there is some important stuff going on so maybe I should
> join as well.
Either you believe that everyone should join (as I do), or that no one
should join (as the "break up Jakarta" crowd would implicitly have it)
other than to run a website.
You get a big "welcome" from me if the former, and a "good luck, do
good work" from me if the latter.
geir
>
> -- Dirk
>
>
>
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>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
geir@4quarters.com
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Dirk Verbeeck wrote:
> Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> >
> > On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:30 AM, Andy Armstrong wrote:
> >
> >> Henri Yandell wrote:
> >>
> >>> As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an
> >>> existing
> >>> member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
> >>
> >>
> >> Who's the best person to nudge then? :)
> >
> >
> > Anyone. Interested?
>
> Looks like there is some important stuff going on so maybe I should
> join as well.
Noted.
Hen
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by Dirk Verbeeck <di...@pandora.be>.
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
> On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:30 AM, Andy Armstrong wrote:
>
>> Henri Yandell wrote:
>>
>>> As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an
>>> existing
>>> member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
>>
>>
>> Who's the best person to nudge then? :)
>
>
> Anyone. Interested?
Looks like there is some important stuff going on so maybe I should
join as well.
-- Dirk
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Re: PMC mailing list (Re: Just in case you're curious)
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@optonline.net>.
On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:52 AM, Joe Germuska wrote:
>> Anyone. Interested?
>
> I'm interested in being on the PMC mailing list; I just became a
> Struts committer. My apache ID is "germuska".
Joe,
I took the liberty of cc-ing the general Jakarta list.
Congrats on becoming a committer. I hope that your CLA has been
signed and sent to the ASF. :)
What we are trying to do is expand the Jakarta PMC to give as much
inclusion and oversight as possible for all jakarta projects. To that
end, we are looking for committers that are interested in the oversight
of the projects, not just working on the projects. Fundamentally, this
means that the committers are ensuring that the code and other
contributions that is being added to the project's CVS is properly
contributed (via a committer w/ a CLA or on a public list where it's
clear it's a freely given contribution) and properly licensed.
This is a subject we'll be discussing more on the general@ list, and I
urge you to pay attention, participate and decide if this is something
you wish to volunteer for.
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
geir@4quarters.com
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Re: Scalability and oversight (Was: Just in case you're curious)
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On Dec 27, 2003, at 7:39 PM, Santiago Gala wrote:
> Scalable because big groups of people can coordinate, even if they
> don't give specific input or they were not "there" while the decision
> was taken.
OT: after some light holiday-time reading ("Prey" from Michael Crichton
- http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0061015725/), it's funny to
try and invent some parallels between open source software communities
and the agent swarms outlined in his novel. Freaky.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: Scalability and oversight (Was: Just in case you're curious)
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On Dec 27, 2003, at 1:39 PM, Santiago Gala wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
> El lunes, 22 dici, 2003, a las 16:32 Europe/Madrid, Geir Magnusson Jr.
> escribió:
>
>> You are free to do what you want. Is this then about personal google
>> hitcount?
>>
>
> To the risk of re-starting a extinguishing discussion, I think google
> (or any outsider looking) plays an important role here, but not in the
> "personal hitcount" sense.
I'll simply note that as you didn't quote what I was responding to,
some readers unfamiliar with the thread might incorrectly assume that
this was about an effort to keep this from being an open discussion.
No one wanted to keep this from being an open discussion. It was first
suggested by Peter a while ago, and I think everyone was in agreement.
The issue was trying to get some organization and planning around a
complicated subject before bringing it public.
>
> I think openness of product *and* process is the only thing that makes
> us scalable and fault-tolerant, when comparing Apache with more
> traditional organizations.
I fully support openness, but I'll also note that a bit of organization
and planning go a long way. And there are plenty of traditional closed
organizations that do just fine due to planning and organization, such
as IBM and Microsoft.
>
> Scalable because big groups of people can coordinate, even if they
> don't give specific input or they were not "there" while the decision
> was taken.
Yep, all helped by a bit of planning and organization.
>
> Fault tolerant because the public audit trail left in CVS and mailing
> lists makes it easy for third party observers (or interested parties)
> to spot any error in oversight.
Yep, all helped by a bit of planning and organization. Note that 'CVS'
and 'mailing lists' are two examples of planning and organization.
>
> If we go to the "cathedral versus bazaar" metaphor, nothing beyond a
> small group conversation remains private in the bazaar. So, if some
> merchant down there is "selling" cheaper, notice propagates fast. Same
> if some merchandise is faulted.
Maybe. I'll note that the most successful OSS projects I've seen also
had a strong individual or group of individuals that helped via (you
can guess what's coming...), "...a bit of planning and organization".
Apache httpd, linux, emacs, hibernate, mysql, the list goes on...
Same w/ Jakarta. There have always been a strong group of people
guiding the sub-projects and the project overall. What we are trying
to do now is increase that group, or better, recognize those that are
doing it already, and conforming to legal structure needed by the ASF.
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
geir@4quarters.com
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Scalability and oversight (Was: Just in case you're curious)
Posted by Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
El lunes, 22 dici, 2003, a las 16:32 Europe/Madrid, Geir Magnusson Jr.
escribió:
> You are free to do what you want. Is this then about personal google
> hitcount?
>
To the risk of re-starting a extinguishing discussion, I think google
(or any outsider looking) plays an important role here, but not in the
"personal hitcount" sense.
I think openness of product *and* process is the only thing that makes
us scalable and fault-tolerant, when comparing Apache with more
traditional organizations.
Scalable because big groups of people can coordinate, even if they
don't give specific input or they were not "there" while the decision
was taken.
Fault tolerant because the public audit trail left in CVS and mailing
lists makes it easy for third party observers (or interested parties)
to spot any error in oversight.
If we go to the "cathedral versus bazaar" metaphor, nothing beyond a
small group conversation remains private in the bazaar. So, if some
merchant down there is "selling" cheaper, notice propagates fast. Same
if some merchandise is faulted.
Regards,
Santiago
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
You are free to do what you want. Is this then about personal google
hitcount?
On Dec 21, 2003, at 11:06 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>>
>> I think the problem isn't the private list, on which we will continue
>> to do work, such as voting, but follow up.
>>
>> geir
>
> Heads up,
>
> FYI, except where I feel the situation absolutely mandates it, I will
> be
> voting/discussing here.
>
> While I'm not sure I agree, out of courtesy, I will vote privately for:
>
> * PMC nominations/discussion
> * legally precarious issues
> * things too likely to cause me to get slashdotted. I favor openness,
> but
> the peanut gallery isn't helpful.
>
> Pointedly,
>
> I will not discuss the organization, structure, software, etc. of
> Jakarta on
> pmc@. I will discuss it here. This is my personal choice. I choose
> to
> work in the open. I choose to be googled. I volunteered for it in
> fact.
>
> -Andy
> --
> Andrew C. Oliver
> http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
> Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
>
> http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
> For Java and Excel, Got POI?
>
> The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are
> almost
> definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or
> its
> general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree
> with
> everything espoused in the above email.
>
>> From: "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>
>> Reply-To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
>> Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 07:35:45 -0500
>> To: Jakarta General List <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
>> Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious
>>
>>
>> On Dec 21, 2003, at 3:51 AM, Santiago Gala wrote:
>>
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>
>>>
>>> El domingo, 21 dici, 2003, a las 02:35 Europe/Madrid, Henri Yandell
>>> escribió:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 20 Dec 2003, Santiago Gala wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> El jueves, 18 dici, 2003, a las 15:52 Europe/Madrid, Henri Yandell
>>>>> escribió:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html lists the PMC members
>>>>>> up
>>>>>> until the previous addition of 20 or so. That list has to go to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> board
>>>>>> etc and I plan to add them to the list as soon as I see them
>>>>>> appear
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> board's list [in the committers/ cvs module].
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have just discovered I'm listed as PMC member in the web page.
>>>>>
>>>>> When was I appointed? is there no notification to elected people?
>>>>
>>>> Ack. Sorry. Completely my mistake.
>>>>
>>>> I added you along with three others, thinking you'd been part of a
>>>> batch
>>>> vote with them. Instead your vote was separate one.
>>>>
>>>
>>> This is the kind of problems that happen with private lists.
>>
>> I think the problem isn't the private list, on which we will continue
>> to do work, such as voting, but follow up.
>>
>> geir
>>
>> --
>> Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
>> geir@4quarters.com
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>
>
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>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
geir@4quarters.com
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
> I think the problem isn't the private list, on which we will continue
> to do work, such as voting, but follow up.
>
> geir
Heads up,
FYI, except where I feel the situation absolutely mandates it, I will be
voting/discussing here.
While I'm not sure I agree, out of courtesy, I will vote privately for:
* PMC nominations/discussion
* legally precarious issues
* things too likely to cause me to get slashdotted. I favor openness, but
the peanut gallery isn't helpful.
Pointedly,
I will not discuss the organization, structure, software, etc. of Jakarta on
pmc@. I will discuss it here. This is my personal choice. I choose to
work in the open. I choose to be googled. I volunteered for it in fact.
-Andy
--
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?
The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.
> From: "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>
> Reply-To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 07:35:45 -0500
> To: Jakarta General List <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious
>
>
> On Dec 21, 2003, at 3:51 AM, Santiago Gala wrote:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>>
>> El domingo, 21 dici, 2003, a las 02:35 Europe/Madrid, Henri Yandell
>> escribió:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 20 Dec 2003, Santiago Gala wrote:
>>>
>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> El jueves, 18 dici, 2003, a las 15:52 Europe/Madrid, Henri Yandell
>>>> escribió:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html lists the PMC members
>>>>> up
>>>>> until the previous addition of 20 or so. That list has to go to the
>>>>> board
>>>>> etc and I plan to add them to the list as soon as I see them appear
>>>>> on
>>>>> the
>>>>> board's list [in the committers/ cvs module].
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have just discovered I'm listed as PMC member in the web page.
>>>>
>>>> When was I appointed? is there no notification to elected people?
>>>
>>> Ack. Sorry. Completely my mistake.
>>>
>>> I added you along with three others, thinking you'd been part of a
>>> batch
>>> vote with them. Instead your vote was separate one.
>>>
>>
>> This is the kind of problems that happen with private lists.
>
> I think the problem isn't the private list, on which we will continue
> to do work, such as voting, but follow up.
>
> geir
>
> --
> Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
> geir@4quarters.com
>
>
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On Dec 21, 2003, at 3:51 AM, Santiago Gala wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
> El domingo, 21 dici, 2003, a las 02:35 Europe/Madrid, Henri Yandell
> escribió:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 20 Dec 2003, Santiago Gala wrote:
>>
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>
>>>
>>> El jueves, 18 dici, 2003, a las 15:52 Europe/Madrid, Henri Yandell
>>> escribió:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html lists the PMC members
>>>> up
>>>> until the previous addition of 20 or so. That list has to go to the
>>>> board
>>>> etc and I plan to add them to the list as soon as I see them appear
>>>> on
>>>> the
>>>> board's list [in the committers/ cvs module].
>>>>
>>>
>>> I have just discovered I'm listed as PMC member in the web page.
>>>
>>> When was I appointed? is there no notification to elected people?
>>
>> Ack. Sorry. Completely my mistake.
>>
>> I added you along with three others, thinking you'd been part of a
>> batch
>> vote with them. Instead your vote was separate one.
>>
>
> This is the kind of problems that happen with private lists.
I think the problem isn't the private list, on which we will continue
to do work, such as voting, but follow up.
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
geir@4quarters.com
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
El domingo, 21 dici, 2003, a las 02:35 Europe/Madrid, Henri Yandell
escribió:
>
>
> On Sat, 20 Dec 2003, Santiago Gala wrote:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>>
>> El jueves, 18 dici, 2003, a las 15:52 Europe/Madrid, Henri Yandell
>> escribió:
>>
>>>
>>> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html lists the PMC members up
>>> until the previous addition of 20 or so. That list has to go to the
>>> board
>>> etc and I plan to add them to the list as soon as I see them appear
>>> on
>>> the
>>> board's list [in the committers/ cvs module].
>>>
>>
>> I have just discovered I'm listed as PMC member in the web page.
>>
>> When was I appointed? is there no notification to elected people?
>
> Ack. Sorry. Completely my mistake.
>
> I added you along with three others, thinking you'd been part of a
> batch
> vote with them. Instead your vote was separate one.
>
This is the kind of problems that happen with private lists. I received
a copy of my nomination from Andrew, back in October.
But, as I saw no resolution about the election here, I thought there
had been no vote.
I have subscribed board@ in December, because Greg encouraged all
members doing so. I previously thought I could read the archives but
not subscribe to it. Had I done it earlier I would have seen the
message to the board confirming the elections in Nov 19. (I did a grep
in the archives yesterday, this is how I know now that I have actually
been elected, somewhere in november).
Regards,
Santiago
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Sat, 20 Dec 2003, Santiago Gala wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
> El jueves, 18 dici, 2003, a las 15:52 Europe/Madrid, Henri Yandell
> escribi�:
>
> >
> > http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html lists the PMC members up
> > until the previous addition of 20 or so. That list has to go to the
> > board
> > etc and I plan to add them to the list as soon as I see them appear on
> > the
> > board's list [in the committers/ cvs module].
> >
>
> I have just discovered I'm listed as PMC member in the web page.
>
> When was I appointed? is there no notification to elected people?
Ack. Sorry. Completely my mistake.
I added you along with three others, thinking you'd been part of a batch
vote with them. Instead your vote was separate one.
Hen
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
El jueves, 18 dici, 2003, a las 15:52 Europe/Madrid, Henri Yandell
escribió:
>
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html lists the PMC members up
> until the previous addition of 20 or so. That list has to go to the
> board
> etc and I plan to add them to the list as soon as I see them appear on
> the
> board's list [in the committers/ cvs module].
>
I have just discovered I'm listed as PMC member in the web page.
When was I appointed? is there no notification to elected people?
Regards,
Santiago
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
> On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:30 AM, Andy Armstrong wrote:
>
> > Henri Yandell wrote:
> >> As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an
> >> existing
> >> member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
> >
> > Who's the best person to nudge then? :)
>
> Anyone. Interested?
Whoever knows you as an active committer Andy and is on the PMC.
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html lists the PMC members up
until the previous addition of 20 or so. That list has to go to the board
etc and I plan to add them to the list as soon as I see them appear on the
board's list [in the committers/ cvs module].
Hen
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:30 AM, Andy Armstrong wrote:
> Henri Yandell wrote:
>> As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an
>> existing
>> member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
>
> Who's the best person to nudge then? :)
Anyone. Interested?
>
> --
> Andy Armstrong, Tagish
>
>
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--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
geir@4quarters.com
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by Andy Armstrong <an...@tagish.com>.
Henri Yandell wrote:
> As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing
> member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
Who's the best person to nudge then? :)
--
Andy Armstrong, Tagish
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On Dec 17, 2003, at 11:01 PM, Henri Yandell wrote:
>
> As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an
> existing
> member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
>
Yep. Do that. Every committer should want to be part of the PMC.
geir
--
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geir@4quarters.com
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
> > Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> > > Here in Jakarta (as well as other projects, I assume), the sub-projects
> > > do committer votes in public. Some people outside of Jakarta feel that
> > > this is improper, and should be done in private to ensure that open
> > > discussion can happen in a way that doesn't hurt peoples feelings.
> > Well, I think it that vote jakartan-way (to vote new committers in)
> > is reasonable as well as the way other (single projects -- which do
> > not have many subprojects under their umbrella) projects had chosen is.
> Once the PMC situation is squared away by any of a few approaches, there
> should be no reason to hold Committer or PMC Member votes in public.
Makes sense. Thanks.
I'd subscribed to all the -dev lists and downloaded all the
archive messages from jakarta.apache.org/mail/**.
I found it that if PMC situation would be squared away, PMC
list could take over the place for committer votes, too.
I had a stats of the contributors' messages and sometimes felt
"I do want to vote him/her in to XX subproject if I were a committer
of this (sub)project" where I am not a committer nor a PMC Member.
(So, I often did "non-binding" votes -- +1 to excellent
persons ... Right? >> Adam @ gump)
I think you folks can choose the appropriate persons for the
jakarta-committership, granted you won't hold Committer votes
in public. -- I remember that one of the ASF members has already
invented nice voting machine program @ minotaur (wrapper program
for qmail, if i remember correctly) -- Maybe you/we will be able
to make use of it (Then, PMC list's traffic won't be increased).
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
-- Tetsuya. (tetsuya@apache.org)
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RE: Just in case you're curious
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
> Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> > Here in Jakarta (as well as other projects, I assume), the sub-projects
> > do committer votes in public. Some people outside of Jakarta feel that
> > this is improper, and should be done in private to ensure that open
> > discussion can happen in a way that doesn't hurt peoples feelings.
> Well, I think it that vote jakartan-way (to vote new committers in)
> is reasonable as well as the way other (single projects -- which do
> not have many subprojects under their umbrella) projects had chosen is.
There are good reasons for the guidelines. One of the other Apache projects
recently had a situtation where someone proposed a new Committer in public,
there was a negative reaction from some people, and it created an
unfortunate situation in public. There is no reason to either subject
anyone to that, or leave a public record of it.
Once the PMC situation is squared away by any of a few approaches, there
should be no reason to hold Committer or PMC Member votes in public.
--- Noel
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 08:12:02 -0500
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> Here in Jakarta (as well as other projects, I assume), the sub-projects
> do committer votes in public. Some people outside of Jakarta feel that
> this is improper, and should be done in private to ensure that open
> discussion can happen in a way that doesn't hurt peoples feelings.
Yes, HTTP Server Project / APR Project folks often feel that it is
improper, it seems. (I am not a HTTPD guy ;-) I've heard such opinions
on other lists before.
Well, I think it that vote jakartan-way (to vote new committers in)
is reasonable as well as the way other (single projects -- which do not
have many subprojects under their umbrella) projects had chosen is.
Only one concern. Maybe Jakarta has many *zombie* committers.
I hope current (jakartan) voting rule hadn't affected to the *inflated
zombies* phenomena. To eliminate *zombie* committers would be one
of the critical issues for Jakarta PMC, I imagine. (This is also
board members' concern, I imagine)
Anyways, I think Jakarta can have Jakartan-Way.
Good luck, folks. (And thanks)
Sincerely,
-- Tetsuya. (tetsuya@apache.org)
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On Dec 22, 2003, at 8:05 AM, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 07:38:54 -0500
> Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
>>> What could be something that is sensteive in an open source
>>> community?
>>> This is new direction. Gray areas should be well exposed. If you are
>>> ashamed of it, don't do open source community.
>> There are lots of things. Committer votes, for example, are
>> considered
>> a sensitive issue. Inter-personal disputes.
>
> I agree. Also, I think "[PROPOSAL] As it ever were" mail
> was very reasonable. However, just one question came to my mind.
>
> Have The Committer Votes (I mean, [VOTE] in to elect new committer)
> to be taken place at Jakarta PMC list? ... This is very sensitive
> issue (maybe causes inter-personal dispute), i guess.
>
> Could you please explain more?
Committer votes haven't taken place on the Jakarta PMC list. PMC
member votes have, but that's a different thing.
Here in Jakarta (as well as other projects, I assume), the sub-projects
do committer votes in public. Some people outside of Jakarta feel that
this is improper, and should be done in private to ensure that open
discussion can happen in a way that doesn't hurt peoples feelings.
I can see both sides of this - do it in public because it's a good "pat
on the back" for a person to see fellow community members supporting
him or her, but on the other hand, it would be a shame for people to be
unable to say how they feel about a proposed committer and have that
POV understood by others w/o possibly hurting the feelings of the
person being voted on.
I hope this is something we take up when we have this PMC issue sorted
out.
geir
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> -- Tetsuya. (tetsuya@apache.org)
>
> P.S.
>> Vic, if you've been paying ANY attention, you'd know that what we are
>> trying to do is just the opposite - get *every* committer in Jakarta
>> onto the PMC, *eliminating* this needless boundary.
> Well said.
>
>
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>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
geir@4quarters.com
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 07:38:54 -0500
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> > What could be something that is sensteive in an open source community?
> > This is new direction. Gray areas should be well exposed. If you are
> > ashamed of it, don't do open source community.
> There are lots of things. Committer votes, for example, are considered
> a sensitive issue. Inter-personal disputes.
I agree. Also, I think "[PROPOSAL] As it ever were" mail
was very reasonable. However, just one question came to my mind.
Have The Committer Votes (I mean, [VOTE] in to elect new committer)
to be taken place at Jakarta PMC list? ... This is very sensitive
issue (maybe causes inter-personal dispute), i guess.
Could you please explain more?
Thanks in advance.
-- Tetsuya. (tetsuya@apache.org)
P.S.
> Vic, if you've been paying ANY attention, you'd know that what we are
> trying to do is just the opposite - get *every* committer in Jakarta
> onto the PMC, *eliminating* this needless boundary.
Well said.
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by Costin Manolache <cm...@yahoo.com>.
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>>Vic, if you've been paying ANY attention, you'd know that what we are
>>trying to do is just the opposite - get *every* committer in Jakarta
>>onto the PMC, *eliminating* this needless boundary.
>>
>
>
> While closing out everyone else. Like those who are not yet committers.
I think all active committers should be in the PMC - maybe with a 3
months waiting or something similar. Not because of oversight concerns
or to "close out everyone else", but because it is the right thing.
I do agree with you that jakarta-general should be used for most
discussions, and it was a mistake to have the threads about oversight in
the PMC list.
With all committers in the PMC it is more likely someone will notice
that some threads should be public and speak up sooner ( just as you
did ).
Costin
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
> Vic, if you've been paying ANY attention, you'd know that what we are
> trying to do is just the opposite - get *every* committer in Jakarta
> onto the PMC, *eliminating* this needless boundary.
>
While closing out everyone else. Like those who are not yet committers.
--
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?
The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.
> From: "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>
> Reply-To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 07:38:54 -0500
> To: Jakarta General List <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious
>
>
> On Dec 22, 2003, at 7:27 AM, Vic Cekvenich wrote:
>
>>
>> <BIG SNIP>
>>
>> <Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:>
>> ... sensitive things should be on the PMC
>> list, and non-sensitive things should be on the general@ list.
>> </end Geir >
>>
>> What could be something that is sensteive in an open source community?
>> This is new direction. Gray areas should be well exposed. If you are
>> ashamed of it, don't do open source community.
>
> There are lots of things. Committer votes, for example, are considered
> a sensitive issue. Inter-personal disputes.
>
> If you would have been fair with your attribution, you would have
> included what I then said next, namely that I felt it sensitive
>
> "because of the confusion that it sews. My hope was for us to get our
> act together before we approached the rest of the community, and do it
> as a group."
>
> IOW, simply to get a handle on how we approach the community to make
> things clear and non-confusing.
>
>>
>> For a developer ... lets have some code in open, and the bad code we
>> will just have in a encrypted jar. Is this open source?
>>
>> What do I mean by that:
>> ASF used(?) to be Libreterian: If you want code to do something,
>> commit the code to do it.
>>
>> ASF used(?) to be run by commiters.
>> Now some are trying to develop "rulling" class, that is carving out
>> roles for itself and rules to legislate iteligence and integrity for
>> commiters, but does not committ itself?.
>> What happend to emritius commiters? People who did not CVS a chunk of
>> code in a while lose vote rights and their berucrat office.
>> The people that are vocal on berucracy are same people I wonder where
>> have they CVSed latelly.
>
> Vic, if you've been paying ANY attention, you'd know that what we are
> trying to do is just the opposite - get *every* committer in Jakarta
> onto the PMC, *eliminating* this needless boundary.
>
> Please re-read.
>
> geir
>
> --
> Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
> geir@4quarters.com
>
>
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On Dec 22, 2003, at 7:27 AM, Vic Cekvenich wrote:
>
> <BIG SNIP>
>
> <Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:>
> ... sensitive things should be on the PMC
> list, and non-sensitive things should be on the general@ list.
> </end Geir >
>
> What could be something that is sensteive in an open source community?
> This is new direction. Gray areas should be well exposed. If you are
> ashamed of it, don't do open source community.
There are lots of things. Committer votes, for example, are considered
a sensitive issue. Inter-personal disputes.
If you would have been fair with your attribution, you would have
included what I then said next, namely that I felt it sensitive
"because of the confusion that it sews. My hope was for us to get our
act together before we approached the rest of the community, and do it
as a group."
IOW, simply to get a handle on how we approach the community to make
things clear and non-confusing.
>
> For a developer ... lets have some code in open, and the bad code we
> will just have in a encrypted jar. Is this open source?
>
> What do I mean by that:
> ASF used(?) to be Libreterian: If you want code to do something,
> commit the code to do it.
>
> ASF used(?) to be run by commiters.
> Now some are trying to develop "rulling" class, that is carving out
> roles for itself and rules to legislate iteligence and integrity for
> commiters, but does not committ itself?.
> What happend to emritius commiters? People who did not CVS a chunk of
> code in a while lose vote rights and their berucrat office.
> The people that are vocal on berucracy are same people I wonder where
> have they CVSed latelly.
Vic, if you've been paying ANY attention, you'd know that what we are
trying to do is just the opposite - get *every* committer in Jakarta
onto the PMC, *eliminating* this needless boundary.
Please re-read.
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
geir@4quarters.com
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by Vic Cekvenich <ce...@basebeans.com>.
<BIG SNIP>
<Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:>
... sensitive things should be on the PMC
list, and non-sensitive things should be on the general@ list.
</end Geir >
What could be something that is sensteive in an open source community?
This is new direction. Gray areas should be well exposed. If you are
ashamed of it, don't do open source community.
For a developer ... lets have some code in open, and the bad code we
will just have in a encrypted jar. Is this open source?
What do I mean by that:
ASF used(?) to be Libreterian: If you want code to do something, commit
the code to do it.
ASF used(?) to be run by commiters.
Now some are trying to develop "rulling" class, that is carving out
roles for itself and rules to legislate iteligence and integrity for
commiters, but does not committ itself?.
What happend to emritius commiters? People who did not CVS a chunk of
code in a while lose vote rights and their berucrat office.
The people that are vocal on berucracy are same people I wonder where
have they CVSed latelly.
ASF is still very small, $100K in the bank. It's committer volunters and
users that use it.
No need for a rulling class, what's wrong with peers?
Some officers rotated in for admin.
If commiters don't get active to make it better, it will get worse.
People I know are active in CVS (via CVS posts I see) have said very
little relative to people I never see in CVS.
Vic
(Struts user)
Ex: "germaine" issue, why no public vote of any kind on it ever, else
link it for me. I think once "germaine" is addressed, things go back to
normal. None of this : we are not smart enough to understand. This is
the only issue that is secret, AFAIK.
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On Dec 21, 2003, at 9:20 PM, Aaron Bannert wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 21, 2003 at 09:09:34PM -0500, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>> I think that there is nothing wrong with the PMC having a private list
>> and discussing things there, especially when we're discussing trying
>> to
>> make that group bigger. I'm sure that Andrew doesn't really either.
>
> That is not the kind of ASF that I want to see.
>
> It seems we have gone from one extreme to the other: first we have
> everything in the public and now we want everything to be private?
That's not at all what I said.
>
> Why not a happy medium? If it's sensitive, discuss it on the PMC.
> If not, discuss it on the dev/general list.
I think you are confusing this with httpd. There is no one dev list,
thank goodness. I agree that sensitive things should be on the PMC
list, and non-sensitive things should be on the general@ list.
I think that specific tactics for restructuring can be considered
sensitive from the POV of it not being some 'state secret', as Andy
seems to want people to believe, but rather because of the confusion
that it sews. My hope was for us to get our act together before we
approached the rest of the community, and do it as a group.
No decisions were made on the PMC list, and the majority of the chatter
was 'what do we do?'.
geir
--
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geir@4quarters.com
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
On Sun, Dec 21, 2003 at 09:09:34PM -0500, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> I think that there is nothing wrong with the PMC having a private list
> and discussing things there, especially when we're discussing trying to
> make that group bigger. I'm sure that Andrew doesn't really either.
That is not the kind of ASF that I want to see.
It seems we have gone from one extreme to the other: first we have
everything in the public and now we want everything to be private?
Why not a happy medium? If it's sensitive, discuss it on the PMC.
If not, discuss it on the dev/general list.
-aaron
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On Dec 21, 2003, at 8:11 PM, Aaron Bannert wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 09:58:53AM -0500, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>> Do you feel that we'll still be an open source organization in more
>> than
>> name if all decisions end up being made on private PMC lists not open
>> to the
>> public?
>
> Do you believe there are discussions happening on PMC lists that should
> be happening on public dev lists?
I think that there is nothing wrong with the PMC having a private list
and discussing things there, especially when we're discussing trying to
make that group bigger. I'm sure that Andrew doesn't really either.
geir
>
> -aaron
>
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>
--
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geir@4quarters.com
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
YES! -- And members, and board, and incubator, and....
Move it into the open.
-Andy
--
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?
The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.
> From: Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>
> Reply-To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 17:11:02 -0800
> To: Jakarta General List <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious
>
> On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 09:58:53AM -0500, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>> Do you feel that we'll still be an open source organization in more than
>> name if all decisions end up being made on private PMC lists not open to the
>> public?
>
> Do you believe there are discussions happening on PMC lists that should
> be happening on public dev lists?
>
> -aaron
>
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 09:58:53AM -0500, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> Do you feel that we'll still be an open source organization in more than
> name if all decisions end up being made on private PMC lists not open to the
> public?
Do you believe there are discussions happening on PMC lists that should
be happening on public dev lists?
-aaron
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
I realize that arguing with you on this will have no effect, but I want
to keep working to extinguish the meme you keep trying to plant.
IIRC, the thread in play at the time was my note to ask the opinion of
all PMC members re the CLA signing, to make sure that it was a clear
message we all wanted to go out with. IRRC, you never even responded
to it.
Further, IIRC, there was broad consensus that things should be public
(I think it was Peter's first nudge), and we were working that
direction.
geir
On Dec 21, 2003, at 11:04 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> Well, saying please and asking nicely had no effect.
> --
> Andrew C. Oliver
> http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
> Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
>
> http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
> For Java and Excel, Got POI?
>
> The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are
> almost
> definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or
> its
> general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree
> with
> everything espoused in the above email.
>
>> From: Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>
>> Organization: mvdb.com
>> Reply-To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
>> Date: 22 Dec 2003 01:53:20 +0100
>> To: Jakarta General List <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
>> Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious
>>
>> Sorry to hear you didn't understand my mail at all
>> If that is the way a PMC member communicates, I can never be part of
>> that PMC.
>>
>> Mvgr,
>> Martin
>>
>> On Sun, 2003-12-21 at 23:10, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>>> Now the conversation is here, that is the solution. You're welcome.
>>>
>>> -Andy
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
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>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
geir@4quarters.com
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
Well, saying please and asking nicely had no effect.
--
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?
The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.
> From: Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>
> Organization: mvdb.com
> Reply-To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Date: 22 Dec 2003 01:53:20 +0100
> To: Jakarta General List <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious
>
> Sorry to hear you didn't understand my mail at all
> If that is the way a PMC member communicates, I can never be part of
> that PMC.
>
> Mvgr,
> Martin
>
> On Sun, 2003-12-21 at 23:10, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>> Now the conversation is here, that is the solution. You're welcome.
>>
>> -Andy
>
>
>
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>.
Sorry to hear you didn't understand my mail at all
If that is the way a PMC member communicates, I can never be part of
that PMC.
Mvgr,
Martin
On Sun, 2003-12-21 at 23:10, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> Now the conversation is here, that is the solution. You're welcome.
>
> -Andy
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
Now the conversation is here, that is the solution. You're welcome.
-Andy
--
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?
The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.
> From: Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>
> Organization: mvdb.com
> Reply-To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Date: 19 Dec 2003 14:26:32 +0100
> To: Jakarta General List <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious
>
> Andrew,
>
> The big difference between Geir and you, is that Geir is actually trying to
> give feedback and explain the situation on what's going on.
> The only messages I keep reading from you are protests against private lists
> and that they should be public and for the rest nothing at all constructive.
> After a year watching your posts I have come to the conclusion that you
> probably still don't get it : you are the problem.
> You are part of that private list and have therefore the same responsibility
> as the other PMC members.
> If you think as a PMC member (you are that according to the jakarta website)
> that something should be in the open, just do it, instead of just saying that
> everything is decided in private without saying what is private.(that is even
> WORSE than keeping it private!)
> I think you are way out of line here blaming others, start looking at yourself
> for once!
> Hope to hear some constructive things from you in the future..
> I don't expect a response from you, since you said you would never want to
> have anything to do with me, so I respect that.
>
> Mvgr,
> Martin
>
>
>
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>.
Andrew,
The big difference between Geir and you, is that Geir is actually trying to give feedback and explain the situation on what's going on.
The only messages I keep reading from you are protests against private lists and that they should be public and for the rest nothing at all constructive.
After a year watching your posts I have come to the conclusion that you probably still don't get it : you are the problem.
You are part of that private list and have therefore the same responsibility as the other PMC members.
If you think as a PMC member (you are that according to the jakarta website) that something should be in the open, just do it, instead of just saying that everything is decided in private without saying what is private.(that is even WORSE than keeping it private!)
I think you are way out of line here blaming others, start looking at yourself for once!
Hope to hear some constructive things from you in the future..
I don't expect a response from you, since you said you would never want to have anything to do with me, so I respect that.
Mvgr,
Martin
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>>
>> I'm sorry, I hallucinated that we were having all of these discussions
>> about
>> the future of jakarta and how to best reorganize it on
>> pmc@jakarta.apache.org.
>
> Remember what you said. You said that "decisions were being made in
> private".
>
Oh yes, I hallucinated the [VOTE] threads too. Damn those hallucinations.
I hallucinated the refactoring proposal and everything.
>>
>>>> Which is IMHO, PRECISELY why it should take place here. Why should
>>>> we
>>>> describe it if when we can let it describe itself?
>>>
>>> Here I disagree with you, and what you are saying isn't FUD - it's
>>> just
>>> that I disagree. See the difference?
>>>
>>
>> I'm not sure you do.
>
> But do you see the difference, right? One is a disagreement, and one is
> you making things up.
>
No Gier, take a deep breath and determine whether you distinguish yourself
with this conversation. I shall give you the honor of the last word.
-Andy
>>
>>>>
>>>>> The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how
>>>>> to
>>>>> make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Glad you caught that.
>>>
>>> The private list of any PMC has it's place. The specific problem we
>>> are solving has to do with governance of Jakarta and how to bring as
>>> much of the community as possible into that governance process to make
>>> things as transparent and accountable as possible. Because there is
>>> this specific problem, I think that the private list is fine venue for
>>> the PMC to organize how it is going to approach the problem,
>>> especially
>>> since it's clear that we want to bring this to general@ ASAP.
>>>
>>
>> Ironic.
>>
>>> Ignoring this is convenient to support a position characterizing
>>> Jakarta as not open, but ignores the facts of the matter, IMO.
>>>
>>
>> Yeah right. I favor all of the present discussion on PMC@ take place
>> here.
>> No more secret discussions except when they MUST be secret... Openness
>> isn't always convenient.
>
> And thinking things through isn't either. But sometimes it must be
> done.
>
> geir
>
> --
> Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
> geir@4quarters.com
>
>
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On Dec 18, 2003, at 8:02 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This is FUD. No decisions are being made in private.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Isn't everything you disagree with?
>>
>> You are making assertions that aren't correct to cast doubt on
>> something. That's commonly known as FUD.
>>
>
> I'm sorry, I hallucinated that we were having all of these discussions
> about
> the future of jakarta and how to best reorganize it on
> pmc@jakarta.apache.org.
Remember what you said. You said that "decisions were being made in
private".
>
>>> Which is IMHO, PRECISELY why it should take place here. Why should
>>> we
>>> describe it if when we can let it describe itself?
>>
>> Here I disagree with you, and what you are saying isn't FUD - it's
>> just
>> that I disagree. See the difference?
>>
>
> I'm not sure you do.
But do you see the difference, right? One is a disagreement, and one is
you making things up.
>
>>>
>>>> The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how
>>>> to
>>>> make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :)
>>>>
>>>
>>> Glad you caught that.
>>
>> The private list of any PMC has it's place. The specific problem we
>> are solving has to do with governance of Jakarta and how to bring as
>> much of the community as possible into that governance process to make
>> things as transparent and accountable as possible. Because there is
>> this specific problem, I think that the private list is fine venue for
>> the PMC to organize how it is going to approach the problem,
>> especially
>> since it's clear that we want to bring this to general@ ASAP.
>>
>
> Ironic.
>
>> Ignoring this is convenient to support a position characterizing
>> Jakarta as not open, but ignores the facts of the matter, IMO.
>>
>
> Yeah right. I favor all of the present discussion on PMC@ take place
> here.
> No more secret discussions except when they MUST be secret... Openness
> isn't always convenient.
And thinking things through isn't either. But sometimes it must be
done.
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
geir@4quarters.com
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>>>
>>> This is FUD. No decisions are being made in private.
>>>
>>
>> Isn't everything you disagree with?
>
> You are making assertions that aren't correct to cast doubt on
> something. That's commonly known as FUD.
>
I'm sorry, I hallucinated that we were having all of these discussions about
the future of jakarta and how to best reorganize it on
pmc@jakarta.apache.org.
>> Which is IMHO, PRECISELY why it should take place here. Why should we
>> describe it if when we can let it describe itself?
>
> Here I disagree with you, and what you are saying isn't FUD - it's just
> that I disagree. See the difference?
>
I'm not sure you do.
>>
>>> The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how
>>> to
>>> make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :)
>>>
>>
>> Glad you caught that.
>
> The private list of any PMC has it's place. The specific problem we
> are solving has to do with governance of Jakarta and how to bring as
> much of the community as possible into that governance process to make
> things as transparent and accountable as possible. Because there is
> this specific problem, I think that the private list is fine venue for
> the PMC to organize how it is going to approach the problem, especially
> since it's clear that we want to bring this to general@ ASAP.
>
Ironic.
> Ignoring this is convenient to support a position characterizing
> Jakarta as not open, but ignores the facts of the matter, IMO.
>
Yeah right. I favor all of the present discussion on PMC@ take place here.
No more secret discussions except when they MUST be secret... Openness
isn't always convenient.
-Andy
> geir
>
>
> --
> Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
> geir@4quarters.com
>
>
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On Dec 18, 2003, at 11:28 AM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>>
>> This is FUD. No decisions are being made in private.
>>
>
> Isn't everything you disagree with?
You are making assertions that aren't correct to cast doubt on
something. That's commonly known as FUD.
>
>> I think the best way to describe what is going on in private is that
>> we
>> are trying to get things organized enough to have a public discussion
>> of the things that are concerning us.
>>
>
> Which is IMHO, PRECISELY why it should take place here. Why should we
> describe it if when we can let it describe itself?
Here I disagree with you, and what you are saying isn't FUD - it's just
that I disagree. See the difference?
>
>> The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how
>> to
>> make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :)
>>
>
> Glad you caught that.
The private list of any PMC has it's place. The specific problem we
are solving has to do with governance of Jakarta and how to bring as
much of the community as possible into that governance process to make
things as transparent and accountable as possible. Because there is
this specific problem, I think that the private list is fine venue for
the PMC to organize how it is going to approach the problem, especially
since it's clear that we want to bring this to general@ ASAP.
Ignoring this is convenient to support a position characterizing
Jakarta as not open, but ignores the facts of the matter, IMO.
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
geir@4quarters.com
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
> This is FUD. No decisions are being made in private.
>
Isn't everything you disagree with?
> I think the best way to describe what is going on in private is that we
> are trying to get things organized enough to have a public discussion
> of the things that are concerning us.
>
Which is IMHO, PRECISELY why it should take place here. Why should we
describe it if when we can let it describe itself?
> The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how to
> make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :)
>
Glad you caught that.
-Andy
> geir
>
> --
> Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
> geir@4quarters.com
--
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?
The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:58 AM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>> As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an
>> existing
>> member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
>
> Do you feel that we'll still be an open source organization in more
> than
> name if all decisions end up being made on private PMC lists not open
> to the
> public?
This is FUD. No decisions are being made in private.
I think the best way to describe what is going on in private is that we
are trying to get things organized enough to have a public discussion
of the things that are concerning us.
The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how to
make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :)
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
geir@4quarters.com
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
> As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing
> member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
Do you feel that we'll still be an open source organization in more than
name if all decisions end up being made on private PMC lists not open to the
public?
--
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?
The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.
> From: Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>
> Reply-To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 23:01:11 -0500 (EST)
> To: Jakarta General List <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious
>
>
> subjects have been:
>
> how the PMC should work
> organising a vote or something for a new pmc chair [5 or 6 people nominated so
> far]
> how to ensure oversight of jakarta
> general ramblings about jakarta futures in terms of TLPs and whether
> social pressure should ever be applied to move a project to TLP-ness
> [it shouldn't seems the end result here]
> how to get more CLA's signed by committers
> log4j has asked for TLP-ness, and the board voted in favour today
> whether there should be a policy for jakarta wiki's, though it off-topic'd a
> bit
>
> Some could have started on this list. Others could easily have moved to
> this list after they went on, but moving to a new list is confusing to the
> thread. Hopefully that'll improve, I'm sure Andy will be able to point out
> at the start of threads when things should move to here. Some threads
> did anyway.
>
> As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing
> member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
>
> Hen
>
> On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
>> The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on
>> private lists now.
>> --
>> Andrew C. Oliver
>> http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
>> Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
>>
>> http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
>> For Java and Excel, Got POI?
>>
>> The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
>> definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
>> general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
>> everything espoused in the above email.
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: Just in case you're curious
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
subjects have been:
how the PMC should work
organising a vote or something for a new pmc chair [5 or 6 people nominated so far]
how to ensure oversight of jakarta
general ramblings about jakarta futures in terms of TLPs and whether
social pressure should ever be applied to move a project to TLP-ness
[it shouldn't seems the end result here]
how to get more CLA's signed by committers
log4j has asked for TLP-ness, and the board voted in favour today
whether there should be a policy for jakarta wiki's, though it off-topic'd a bit
Some could have started on this list. Others could easily have moved to
this list after they went on, but moving to a new list is confusing to the
thread. Hopefully that'll improve, I'm sure Andy will be able to point out
at the start of threads when things should move to here. Some threads
did anyway.
As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing
member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
Hen
On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on
> private lists now.
> --
> Andrew C. Oliver
> http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
> Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
>
> http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
> For Java and Excel, Got POI?
>
> The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
> definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
> general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
> everything espoused in the above email.
>
>
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