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Posted to dev@netbeans.apache.org by Emilian Bold <em...@protonmail.ch.INVALID> on 2018/06/24 21:15:05 UTC
[DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Hello,
I believe all the Apache NetBeans contributors should use the dev@ mailing list.
The dev@ mailing list is our Apache 'central square' so to speak and even if we don't work on the same particular issue, we should get to know each-other, at least by name.
The separate netcat@ mailing list is splitting the contributor community.
I think initially netcat@ was created because it might have too much traffic. But looking at the archives I see dev@ has an average of 460 emails per month while netcat@ is much more spiky and reached its maximum of 350 emails during March while now it's at 30-40 emails per month.
Of course, emails are grouped into threads / topics so they are easier to follow or ignore. Thus, the load is not that much.
Personally, I was surprised a while back how familiar Efrem Mc was on the dev@ mailing list and I just didn't know who he was. Turns out, he is much more active in NetCAT but I was not subscribed to netcat@ at that time.
Enthusiasm is contagious and if people doing NetCAT care a lot about something it will spill into development interest too. And a development problem might invite some second look from quality acceptance.
So my suggestion is to bring all NetCAT communication onto the dev@ mailing list.
I would like to hear your opinion and I hope that at the end we'll have a VOTE about this.
PS: I'm crossposting this to both the dev@ and the netcat@ mailing list.
--emi
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Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Glenn Holmer <ce...@kolabnow.com.INVALID>.
On 06/26/2018 06:47 AM, Emilian Bold wrote:
>> I think this discussion should take place on the NetCAT mailing
>> list only -- and personally I'm not sure that it is the most urgent
>> discussion at this point.
>
> I think this further proves it's a bad idea to have multiple mailing
> lists. We aren't even capable of having a discussion involving the
> whole community!
It seems very odd that there isn't traffic about this on the NetCAT
list... I guess that strengthens the argument for merging the two lists.
NetCATters, if you aren't subscribed to the dev mailing list, at least
have a look at some of the threads re. NetCAT (best to click "view as
flat thread, sort by date"):
https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/afa296b2564f811f872501d1729626eab54be56295d944a906257499@%3Cdev.netbeans.apache.org%3E
https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/f64411c5882c299a98e242a5505fc926e1e078f32e00f2761c2d571a@%3Cdev.netbeans.apache.org%3E
--
Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682)
"After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe."
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Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Simon IJskes - QCG <si...@qcg.nl>.
Why not wait with merging plans?
Speaking as an emeritus PMC member i would have been very greatfull if
there was a specialized testing community. So why not help them with
filtering out the traffic from developers, by providing them with a
separate mailinglist? A CC: to netcat would suffice to signal important
issues. If they want they can subscribe to dev as well.
If it turns out in 6 months that all netcat members are also subscribed
to dev, we can shutdown the netcat list.
G. Simon
--
QCG, Software development, 071-5890970, http://www.qcg.nl
Quality Consultancy Group b.v., Leiderdorp, Kvk Den Haag: 28088397
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Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by John Muczynski <jo...@gmail.com>.
Yes, that's an awesome plan.
+1
On Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 12:01 PM Geertjan Wielenga
<ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 4:44 PM, Brett Ryan <br...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> > My plan is for a lot of my devs and test teams to come join NetCAT, most
> > of my QA team do not have an engineering background and for them they
> > wouldn’t want to see dev related topics.
> >
>
>
> Now that's an awesome plan!
>
> Gj
>
>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by John Muczynski <jo...@gmail.com>.
Yes, that's an awesome plan.
+1
On Wed, Jun 27, 2018, 12:01 PM Geertjan Wielenga
<ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 4:44 PM, Brett Ryan <br...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> > My plan is for a lot of my devs and test teams to come join NetCAT, most
> > of my QA team do not have an engineering background and for them they
> > wouldn’t want to see dev related topics.
> >
>
>
> Now that's an awesome plan!
>
> Gj
>
>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID>.
On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 4:44 PM, Brett Ryan <br...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My plan is for a lot of my devs and test teams to come join NetCAT, most
> of my QA team do not have an engineering background and for them they
> wouldn’t want to see dev related topics.
>
Now that's an awesome plan!
Gj
>
> You’re all doing great work here.
>
> > On 27 Jun 2018, at 22:03, Geertjan Wielenga
> <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID> wrote:
> >
> > Whatever keeps Luca and all other NetCAT people inspired and on board is
> > what we should do.
> >
> > I frankly don’t understand what the problem is that we’re trying to fix
> > here. If we’re saying that we’re not able to communicate with the whole
> > community because we have NetCAT separated from dev, then we should use
> the
> > same argument consistently and merge the users mailing list into dev as
> > well and I’m sure no one is suggesting that. :-)
> >
> > Apache NetBeans has a community of users, developers, and testers.
> That's a
> > value add, if anything.
> >
> > Gj
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wednesday, June 27, 2018, Bertrand Delacretaz <bdelacretaz@apache.org
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 9:34 AM Luca Mambretti
> >> <lu...@bizeta.net> wrote:
> >>> ...During the previous programs there were weekly reports on
> activities,
> >> measurement on traffic
> >>> on the mailing list and various surveys to check the status of the
> >> release train in the allotted
> >>> time-frame; ...
> >>
> >> I know little about how NetCAT works but from an Apache perspective of
> >> asynchronous collaboration, jira tickets might be a good way to
> >> coordinate the NetCAT reviews: create a ticket for each main part of
> >> the review (per-tribe?), people can create sub-tickets for more fine
> >> grained coordination and it's easy to get an overview on activity and
> >> status via jira queries. And NetCAT jira tickets can be linked to
> >> development tickets which can help make both teams feel more united.
> >>
> >> Apache projects rarely have set deadlines for releases, as those can
> >> go against quality and people usually work on their own schedule as
> >> opposed to being paid to do things on time. Such loose but efficient
> >> coordination mechanisms work very well for that and quality as opposed
> >> to artificial deadlines then drive the releases.
> >>
> >> This is just my 2 cents, as mentioned I know little about NetCAT, but
> >> I do know a bit about how things work in loosely coupled Apache
> >> projects, and I feel that Apache NetBeans is getting more loosely
> >> coupled - which does have advantages but might require some
> >> adjustments.
> >>
> >> -Bertrand (NetBeans incubation mentor)
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: netcat-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: netcat-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >>
> >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >>
> >>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: netcat-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID>.
On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 4:44 PM, Brett Ryan <br...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My plan is for a lot of my devs and test teams to come join NetCAT, most
> of my QA team do not have an engineering background and for them they
> wouldn’t want to see dev related topics.
>
Now that's an awesome plan!
Gj
>
> You’re all doing great work here.
>
> > On 27 Jun 2018, at 22:03, Geertjan Wielenga
> <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID> wrote:
> >
> > Whatever keeps Luca and all other NetCAT people inspired and on board is
> > what we should do.
> >
> > I frankly don’t understand what the problem is that we’re trying to fix
> > here. If we’re saying that we’re not able to communicate with the whole
> > community because we have NetCAT separated from dev, then we should use
> the
> > same argument consistently and merge the users mailing list into dev as
> > well and I’m sure no one is suggesting that. :-)
> >
> > Apache NetBeans has a community of users, developers, and testers.
> That's a
> > value add, if anything.
> >
> > Gj
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wednesday, June 27, 2018, Bertrand Delacretaz <bdelacretaz@apache.org
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 9:34 AM Luca Mambretti
> >> <lu...@bizeta.net> wrote:
> >>> ...During the previous programs there were weekly reports on
> activities,
> >> measurement on traffic
> >>> on the mailing list and various surveys to check the status of the
> >> release train in the allotted
> >>> time-frame; ...
> >>
> >> I know little about how NetCAT works but from an Apache perspective of
> >> asynchronous collaboration, jira tickets might be a good way to
> >> coordinate the NetCAT reviews: create a ticket for each main part of
> >> the review (per-tribe?), people can create sub-tickets for more fine
> >> grained coordination and it's easy to get an overview on activity and
> >> status via jira queries. And NetCAT jira tickets can be linked to
> >> development tickets which can help make both teams feel more united.
> >>
> >> Apache projects rarely have set deadlines for releases, as those can
> >> go against quality and people usually work on their own schedule as
> >> opposed to being paid to do things on time. Such loose but efficient
> >> coordination mechanisms work very well for that and quality as opposed
> >> to artificial deadlines then drive the releases.
> >>
> >> This is just my 2 cents, as mentioned I know little about NetCAT, but
> >> I do know a bit about how things work in loosely coupled Apache
> >> projects, and I feel that Apache NetBeans is getting more loosely
> >> coupled - which does have advantages but might require some
> >> adjustments.
> >>
> >> -Bertrand (NetBeans incubation mentor)
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: netcat-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: netcat-help@netbeans.apache.org
> >>
> >> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >>
> >>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: netcat-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: netcat-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Brett Ryan <br...@gmail.com>.
I wasn’t going to say anything but my sentiment is the same. We’ve functioned very well this way for a long time, and nothing is broken. There is a lot of work to be done with the transition, lets focus on what is important.
I have been fairly quiet lately due to a new role in BigData and time constraints. I will likely be helping out a lot more in the future and am presently getting wider adoption in our CTO. My plan is for a lot of my devs and test teams to come join NetCAT, most of my QA team do not have an engineering background and for them they wouldn’t want to see dev related topics.
You’re all doing great work here.
> On 27 Jun 2018, at 22:03, Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID> wrote:
>
> Whatever keeps Luca and all other NetCAT people inspired and on board is
> what we should do.
>
> I frankly don’t understand what the problem is that we’re trying to fix
> here. If we’re saying that we’re not able to communicate with the whole
> community because we have NetCAT separated from dev, then we should use the
> same argument consistently and merge the users mailing list into dev as
> well and I’m sure no one is suggesting that. :-)
>
> Apache NetBeans has a community of users, developers, and testers. That's a
> value add, if anything.
>
> Gj
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, June 27, 2018, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 9:34 AM Luca Mambretti
>> <lu...@bizeta.net> wrote:
>>> ...During the previous programs there were weekly reports on activities,
>> measurement on traffic
>>> on the mailing list and various surveys to check the status of the
>> release train in the allotted
>>> time-frame; ...
>>
>> I know little about how NetCAT works but from an Apache perspective of
>> asynchronous collaboration, jira tickets might be a good way to
>> coordinate the NetCAT reviews: create a ticket for each main part of
>> the review (per-tribe?), people can create sub-tickets for more fine
>> grained coordination and it's easy to get an overview on activity and
>> status via jira queries. And NetCAT jira tickets can be linked to
>> development tickets which can help make both teams feel more united.
>>
>> Apache projects rarely have set deadlines for releases, as those can
>> go against quality and people usually work on their own schedule as
>> opposed to being paid to do things on time. Such loose but efficient
>> coordination mechanisms work very well for that and quality as opposed
>> to artificial deadlines then drive the releases.
>>
>> This is just my 2 cents, as mentioned I know little about NetCAT, but
>> I do know a bit about how things work in loosely coupled Apache
>> projects, and I feel that Apache NetBeans is getting more loosely
>> coupled - which does have advantages but might require some
>> adjustments.
>>
>> -Bertrand (NetBeans incubation mentor)
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: netcat-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: netcat-help@netbeans.apache.org
>>
>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>>
>>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Brett Ryan <br...@gmail.com>.
I wasn’t going to say anything but my sentiment is the same. We’ve functioned very well this way for a long time, and nothing is broken. There is a lot of work to be done with the transition, lets focus on what is important.
I have been fairly quiet lately due to a new role in BigData and time constraints. I will likely be helping out a lot more in the future and am presently getting wider adoption in our CTO. My plan is for a lot of my devs and test teams to come join NetCAT, most of my QA team do not have an engineering background and for them they wouldn’t want to see dev related topics.
You’re all doing great work here.
> On 27 Jun 2018, at 22:03, Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID> wrote:
>
> Whatever keeps Luca and all other NetCAT people inspired and on board is
> what we should do.
>
> I frankly don’t understand what the problem is that we’re trying to fix
> here. If we’re saying that we’re not able to communicate with the whole
> community because we have NetCAT separated from dev, then we should use the
> same argument consistently and merge the users mailing list into dev as
> well and I’m sure no one is suggesting that. :-)
>
> Apache NetBeans has a community of users, developers, and testers. That's a
> value add, if anything.
>
> Gj
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, June 27, 2018, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 9:34 AM Luca Mambretti
>> <lu...@bizeta.net> wrote:
>>> ...During the previous programs there were weekly reports on activities,
>> measurement on traffic
>>> on the mailing list and various surveys to check the status of the
>> release train in the allotted
>>> time-frame; ...
>>
>> I know little about how NetCAT works but from an Apache perspective of
>> asynchronous collaboration, jira tickets might be a good way to
>> coordinate the NetCAT reviews: create a ticket for each main part of
>> the review (per-tribe?), people can create sub-tickets for more fine
>> grained coordination and it's easy to get an overview on activity and
>> status via jira queries. And NetCAT jira tickets can be linked to
>> development tickets which can help make both teams feel more united.
>>
>> Apache projects rarely have set deadlines for releases, as those can
>> go against quality and people usually work on their own schedule as
>> opposed to being paid to do things on time. Such loose but efficient
>> coordination mechanisms work very well for that and quality as opposed
>> to artificial deadlines then drive the releases.
>>
>> This is just my 2 cents, as mentioned I know little about NetCAT, but
>> I do know a bit about how things work in loosely coupled Apache
>> projects, and I feel that Apache NetBeans is getting more loosely
>> coupled - which does have advantages but might require some
>> adjustments.
>>
>> -Bertrand (NetBeans incubation mentor)
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: netcat-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: netcat-help@netbeans.apache.org
>>
>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>>
>>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID>.
Whatever keeps Luca and all other NetCAT people inspired and on board is
what we should do.
I frankly don’t understand what the problem is that we’re trying to fix
here. If we’re saying that we’re not able to communicate with the whole
community because we have NetCAT separated from dev, then we should use the
same argument consistently and merge the users mailing list into dev as
well and I’m sure no one is suggesting that. :-)
Apache NetBeans has a community of users, developers, and testers. That's a
value add, if anything.
Gj
On Wednesday, June 27, 2018, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 9:34 AM Luca Mambretti
> <lu...@bizeta.net> wrote:
> > ...During the previous programs there were weekly reports on activities,
> measurement on traffic
> > on the mailing list and various surveys to check the status of the
> release train in the allotted
> > time-frame; ...
>
> I know little about how NetCAT works but from an Apache perspective of
> asynchronous collaboration, jira tickets might be a good way to
> coordinate the NetCAT reviews: create a ticket for each main part of
> the review (per-tribe?), people can create sub-tickets for more fine
> grained coordination and it's easy to get an overview on activity and
> status via jira queries. And NetCAT jira tickets can be linked to
> development tickets which can help make both teams feel more united.
>
> Apache projects rarely have set deadlines for releases, as those can
> go against quality and people usually work on their own schedule as
> opposed to being paid to do things on time. Such loose but efficient
> coordination mechanisms work very well for that and quality as opposed
> to artificial deadlines then drive the releases.
>
> This is just my 2 cents, as mentioned I know little about NetCAT, but
> I do know a bit about how things work in loosely coupled Apache
> projects, and I feel that Apache NetBeans is getting more loosely
> coupled - which does have advantages but might require some
> adjustments.
>
> -Bertrand (NetBeans incubation mentor)
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: netcat-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: netcat-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID>.
Whatever keeps Luca and all other NetCAT people inspired and on board is
what we should do.
I frankly don’t understand what the problem is that we’re trying to fix
here. If we’re saying that we’re not able to communicate with the whole
community because we have NetCAT separated from dev, then we should use the
same argument consistently and merge the users mailing list into dev as
well and I’m sure no one is suggesting that. :-)
Apache NetBeans has a community of users, developers, and testers. That's a
value add, if anything.
Gj
On Wednesday, June 27, 2018, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 9:34 AM Luca Mambretti
> <lu...@bizeta.net> wrote:
> > ...During the previous programs there were weekly reports on activities,
> measurement on traffic
> > on the mailing list and various surveys to check the status of the
> release train in the allotted
> > time-frame; ...
>
> I know little about how NetCAT works but from an Apache perspective of
> asynchronous collaboration, jira tickets might be a good way to
> coordinate the NetCAT reviews: create a ticket for each main part of
> the review (per-tribe?), people can create sub-tickets for more fine
> grained coordination and it's easy to get an overview on activity and
> status via jira queries. And NetCAT jira tickets can be linked to
> development tickets which can help make both teams feel more united.
>
> Apache projects rarely have set deadlines for releases, as those can
> go against quality and people usually work on their own schedule as
> opposed to being paid to do things on time. Such loose but efficient
> coordination mechanisms work very well for that and quality as opposed
> to artificial deadlines then drive the releases.
>
> This is just my 2 cents, as mentioned I know little about NetCAT, but
> I do know a bit about how things work in loosely coupled Apache
> projects, and I feel that Apache NetBeans is getting more loosely
> coupled - which does have advantages but might require some
> adjustments.
>
> -Bertrand (NetBeans incubation mentor)
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: netcat-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: netcat-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi,
On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 9:34 AM Luca Mambretti
<lu...@bizeta.net> wrote:
> ...During the previous programs there were weekly reports on activities, measurement on traffic
> on the mailing list and various surveys to check the status of the release train in the allotted
> time-frame; ...
I know little about how NetCAT works but from an Apache perspective of
asynchronous collaboration, jira tickets might be a good way to
coordinate the NetCAT reviews: create a ticket for each main part of
the review (per-tribe?), people can create sub-tickets for more fine
grained coordination and it's easy to get an overview on activity and
status via jira queries. And NetCAT jira tickets can be linked to
development tickets which can help make both teams feel more united.
Apache projects rarely have set deadlines for releases, as those can
go against quality and people usually work on their own schedule as
opposed to being paid to do things on time. Such loose but efficient
coordination mechanisms work very well for that and quality as opposed
to artificial deadlines then drive the releases.
This is just my 2 cents, as mentioned I know little about NetCAT, but
I do know a bit about how things work in loosely coupled Apache
projects, and I feel that Apache NetBeans is getting more loosely
coupled - which does have advantages but might require some
adjustments.
-Bertrand (NetBeans incubation mentor)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi,
On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 9:34 AM Luca Mambretti
<lu...@bizeta.net> wrote:
> ...During the previous programs there were weekly reports on activities, measurement on traffic
> on the mailing list and various surveys to check the status of the release train in the allotted
> time-frame; ...
I know little about how NetCAT works but from an Apache perspective of
asynchronous collaboration, jira tickets might be a good way to
coordinate the NetCAT reviews: create a ticket for each main part of
the review (per-tribe?), people can create sub-tickets for more fine
grained coordination and it's easy to get an overview on activity and
status via jira queries. And NetCAT jira tickets can be linked to
development tickets which can help make both teams feel more united.
Apache projects rarely have set deadlines for releases, as those can
go against quality and people usually work on their own schedule as
opposed to being paid to do things on time. Such loose but efficient
coordination mechanisms work very well for that and quality as opposed
to artificial deadlines then drive the releases.
This is just my 2 cents, as mentioned I know little about NetCAT, but
I do know a bit about how things work in loosely coupled Apache
projects, and I feel that Apache NetBeans is getting more loosely
coupled - which does have advantages but might require some
adjustments.
-Bertrand (NetBeans incubation mentor)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Luca Mambretti <lu...@bizeta.net>.
As a NetCat member I've felt a decrease of focus and attention, most probably due to other issues eating up all the available coordinating resources, maybe this is also the reason of the currently low traffic as most of the participants in NetCat 9.0 already moved on to other things, (NetCat as always been a timeboxed effort).
But In my opinion this goes way beyond a simple merge of the 2 lists.
During the previous programs there were weekly reports on activities, measurement on traffic on the mailing list and various surveys to check the status of the release train in the allotted time-frame; in this version most of the time frames were blown and, as a consequence, most of the reporting and organization was blown as well, that is my own personal opinion.
I'm fairly sure these things might be, and probably should be reorganized to be more in line with apache policies, but I still feel the "Oracle sponsored" organization model has it's benefits, again in my opinion testing and development should be considered separate things as different issues and most importantly a different type of involvement are in play.
For myself I do not have the time to be fully involved in development, although I'd love to, but I do have time-frames when I can do testing, the NetCat model "oracle style" was thus very appealing to me, on the contrary having to move everything to development, has a negative feel, again my personal opinion.
It might work out in my case if the original time-frames and release based NetCat organization manages to stay, as I might be here for 9.0 but might not be here for 9.1, so assuming I still have the option to register for NetCat if I have time, or opt out if I do not, I would not care that much if communications go thou dev or a dedicated list.
the risk I see here is that some part of NetCat has always been composed of people like me, so if moving to dev and reorganizing means that I'll feel compelled to put in more time then I might just opt out completely instead.
I do not mean to criticize in any way how thing have been managed, I know changing everything is hard, I just wanted to point out a potentially different point of view, so that it gets considered.
Regards,
Luca.
----- Messaggio originale -----
Da: "Antonio" <an...@vieiro.net>
A: "dev" <de...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org>
Cc: "netcat" <ne...@netbeans.apache.org>
Inviato: Mercoledì, 27 giugno 2018 8:03:47
Oggetto: Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
On 26/06/18 13:47, Emilian Bold wrote:
>
> I think this further proves it's a bad idea to have multiple mailing lists. We aren't even capable of having a discussion involving the whole community!
Good point!
> [...]
> But the Apache move is not a small thing and NetCAT should also adapt. If anything, NetCAT's role might be better than ever, but we have to discuss about this first.
>
This is also a good point. NetCAT is probably more important now than ever.
Cheers,
Antonio
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Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Luca Mambretti <lu...@bizeta.net>.
As a NetCat member I've felt a decrease of focus and attention, most probably due to other issues eating up all the available coordinating resources, maybe this is also the reason of the currently low traffic as most of the participants in NetCat 9.0 already moved on to other things, (NetCat as always been a timeboxed effort).
But In my opinion this goes way beyond a simple merge of the 2 lists.
During the previous programs there were weekly reports on activities, measurement on traffic on the mailing list and various surveys to check the status of the release train in the allotted time-frame; in this version most of the time frames were blown and, as a consequence, most of the reporting and organization was blown as well, that is my own personal opinion.
I'm fairly sure these things might be, and probably should be reorganized to be more in line with apache policies, but I still feel the "Oracle sponsored" organization model has it's benefits, again in my opinion testing and development should be considered separate things as different issues and most importantly a different type of involvement are in play.
For myself I do not have the time to be fully involved in development, although I'd love to, but I do have time-frames when I can do testing, the NetCat model "oracle style" was thus very appealing to me, on the contrary having to move everything to development, has a negative feel, again my personal opinion.
It might work out in my case if the original time-frames and release based NetCat organization manages to stay, as I might be here for 9.0 but might not be here for 9.1, so assuming I still have the option to register for NetCat if I have time, or opt out if I do not, I would not care that much if communications go thou dev or a dedicated list.
the risk I see here is that some part of NetCat has always been composed of people like me, so if moving to dev and reorganizing means that I'll feel compelled to put in more time then I might just opt out completely instead.
I do not mean to criticize in any way how thing have been managed, I know changing everything is hard, I just wanted to point out a potentially different point of view, so that it gets considered.
Regards,
Luca.
----- Messaggio originale -----
Da: "Antonio" <an...@vieiro.net>
A: "dev" <de...@netbeans.incubator.apache.org>
Cc: "netcat" <ne...@netbeans.apache.org>
Inviato: Mercoledì, 27 giugno 2018 8:03:47
Oggetto: Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
On 26/06/18 13:47, Emilian Bold wrote:
>
> I think this further proves it's a bad idea to have multiple mailing lists. We aren't even capable of having a discussion involving the whole community!
Good point!
> [...]
> But the Apache move is not a small thing and NetCAT should also adapt. If anything, NetCAT's role might be better than ever, but we have to discuss about this first.
>
This is also a good point. NetCAT is probably more important now than ever.
Cheers,
Antonio
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Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Antonio <an...@vieiro.net>.
On 26/06/18 13:47, Emilian Bold wrote:
>
> I think this further proves it's a bad idea to have multiple mailing lists. We aren't even capable of having a discussion involving the whole community!
Good point!
> [...]
> But the Apache move is not a small thing and NetCAT should also adapt. If anything, NetCAT's role might be better than ever, but we have to discuss about this first.
>
This is also a good point. NetCAT is probably more important now than ever.
Cheers,
Antonio
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Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Antonio <an...@vieiro.net>.
On 26/06/18 13:47, Emilian Bold wrote:
>
> I think this further proves it's a bad idea to have multiple mailing lists. We aren't even capable of having a discussion involving the whole community!
Good point!
> [...]
> But the Apache move is not a small thing and NetCAT should also adapt. If anything, NetCAT's role might be better than ever, but we have to discuss about this first.
>
This is also a good point. NetCAT is probably more important now than ever.
Cheers,
Antonio
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Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Glenn Holmer <ce...@kolabnow.com.INVALID>.
On 06/26/2018 06:47 AM, Emilian Bold wrote:
>> I think this discussion should take place on the NetCAT mailing
>> list only -- and personally I'm not sure that it is the most urgent
>> discussion at this point.
>
> I think this further proves it's a bad idea to have multiple mailing
> lists. We aren't even capable of having a discussion involving the
> whole community!
It seems very odd that there isn't traffic about this on the NetCAT
list... I guess that strengthens the argument for merging the two lists.
NetCATters, if you aren't subscribed to the dev mailing list, at least
have a look at some of the threads re. NetCAT (best to click "view as
flat thread, sort by date"):
https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/afa296b2564f811f872501d1729626eab54be56295d944a906257499@%3Cdev.netbeans.apache.org%3E
https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/f64411c5882c299a98e242a5505fc926e1e078f32e00f2761c2d571a@%3Cdev.netbeans.apache.org%3E
--
Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682)
"After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe."
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Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Emilian Bold <em...@protonmail.ch.INVALID>.
> I think this discussion should take place on the NetCAT mailing list only
> -- and personally I'm not sure that it is the most urgent discussion at
> this point.
I think this further proves it's a bad idea to have multiple mailing lists. We aren't even capable of having a discussion involving the whole community!
> Having a dedicated community focused on testing has always been a good
> thing -- whatever we do, we mustn't lose those dedicated people who have
> been so valuable and enthusiastic over many years.
Nobody is trying to scare NetCAT folks, that's a given.
Seems to me that NetCAT just continued work as if nothing happened: they got their Synergy VM, a separate mailing list and continued as before.
But the Apache move is not a small thing and NetCAT should also adapt. If anything, NetCAT's role might be better than ever, but we have to discuss about this first.
--emi
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On 26 June 2018 10:53 AM, Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID> wrote:
> I think this discussion should take place on the NetCAT mailing list only
>
> -- and personally I'm not sure that it is the most urgent discussion at
>
> this point.
>
> Having a dedicated community focused on testing has always been a good
>
> thing -- whatever we do, we mustn't lose those dedicated people who have
>
> been so valuable and enthusiastic over many years.
>
> And many thanks John McDonnell for the proposed possible release cycle --
>
> to me it looks good and makes sense, maybe this could be put on the Wiki,
>
> and discussed in a separate thread.
>
> Gj
>
> On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 8:12 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bdelacretaz@apache.org
>
> > wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 12:46 AM Antonio antonio@vieiro.net wrote:
> >
> > > ... Has anybody asked them about this merge? What do they think?...
> >
> > The original post in this thread was cross-posted to both dev and netcat
> >
> > lists.
> >
> > -Bertrand
> >
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> >
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> >
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
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Re: [DISCUSS] Proposed Release ProcessWAS: Merging back netcat@ into
the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Chuck Davis <cj...@gmail.com>.
One of the really nice features of NB has been the fact that you can run
dozens of versions installed in parallel (I usually only have not more than
four).
I grew accustomed to living on the nightly builds and, fortunately, if one
doesn't work you run "uninstall" and wait a couple of days and try
again...assuming you are interested in the new feature usually announced by
Gj in one of his blog entries. Seems like a few days before a new
"version" release the nightly builds were not available while the release
version was pulled together. I found this procedure to be very handy.
Seems like this process could still be done with Git/Apache....why not? I
think it's unique and I'm not aware any of the competitors who provide that
service (maybe Eclipse does -- not sure). As I write Jenkins is building
#473 and I'm running on #470. Maybe we just need to make the Jenkins
builds more obvious for those of us who like to bleed and keep the
"versions" on a cadence that is convenient for developers. What is best
for developers?
My $.02.
On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 2:12 PM, Sven Reimers <sv...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I like the overall concept - just some small things.
>
> 1. Having people wait for critical bugfixes for 6 months is quite long -
> can we do better?
>
> 2. Do we plan to do update releases, e.g. 9.1, or 9.0 patch 1 (as before)
> with just some cherrypicked stuff onto the existing release base branch?
> How does this fit in with NetCAT, e.g. just do some sanity checks for the
> patch release?
>
> Just my 2€c
>
> -Sven
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Proposed Release ProcessWAS: Merging back netcat@ into
the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Sven Reimers <sv...@gmail.com>.
Hi all,
I like the overall concept - just some small things.
1. Having people wait for critical bugfixes for 6 months is quite long -
can we do better?
2. Do we plan to do update releases, e.g. 9.1, or 9.0 patch 1 (as before)
with just some cherrypicked stuff onto the existing release base branch?
How does this fit in with NetCAT, e.g. just do some sanity checks for the
patch release?
Just my 2€c
-Sven
On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 6:02 PM Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 at 13:34, John McDonnell <mc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Might every 3 months be pushing it a little?
> >
> > We'll constantly be in a state of picking fixes for release -> testing ->
> > fixing -> release -> picking fixes for release, etc..
> >
> > Something like 6 months is a little more relaxed as it gives us about 4
> > months between releases to make changes, introduce new features to the
> IDE,
> > without rushing.
>
> Funnily enough, my view is that 3 months would be more relaxed,
> because there's less stress to rush a new feature if it's not ready
> when there's a new release cycle imminent. Likewise, this was
> suggested on the basis of master being kept relatively stable, with
> new features mainly being developed in branches until they're ready
> for wider testing. With cherry-picking of changes from master into
> the release branch (like is happening now), I don't see why all these
> things cannot happen in parallel. A bit more Release Early, Release
> Often, with some NetCAT still in the mix! ;-)
>
> I think I'm up to 4c.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>
--
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* Senior Expert Software Architect
* Java Champion
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Re: [DISCUSS] Proposed Release ProcessWAS: Merging back netcat@
intothe dev@ mailing list
Posted by John McDonnell <mc...@gmail.com>.
Cool, seems the general consensus is 3 months, and so lets look at what the
plan for those 3 months could be:
I've updated my suggestion to show how I think a 3 month cycle would work:
Day 0-90: Development Continues and takes place in branches - as normal
Day 30: dev mailing list agrees to initiate a release. PR's not merged into
master at this time are identified and merged/reviewed as needed & Code
Branched into specific release Branch & Jenkins updated
Day 30: NetCat Announced + Week of signups
Day 30-36: New and Noteworthy page created/updated (Useful for NetCat
process to see what new features they need to update their test specs
with) + Branding changes in the branch, etc...
Day 37: Test Spec Review Starts
Day 44-51: Last of the PR's are merged into the release branch(and master)
Day 44-51: Release Candiate 1 is Built & NetCat Testing Phase Starts
Day 74-81: Testing Ends (roughly 30 days of testing?)
Day 81: 72 Hour NetCat Community Acceptance Vote (use to be a survey, but I
assume now it needs an email vote)
Day 85: 72 Hour PPMC Vote
Day 89: 72 Hour IPMC Vote
Day 94: Release
I might be wrong here, but when we come out of incubation, we dont need the
IPMC vote so we could be releasing on day 89, then...
Regards
John
On Thu, 28 Jun 2018 at 08:14, Christian Lenz <ch...@gmx.net> wrote:
> Me too, 3 months sounds good and makes us competitive to e.g. IntelliJ. VS
> Code has once a month (This is my personal Dream but I know, that this is
> not doable, with our process, netcat, etc.). 6 Months is way to Long.
> Remember, that we don’t have only Java, so to make a release only when a
> new JDK is coming out, is inacceptable. Because we have C/C++, JS, HTML,
> CSS, PHP etc. etc. So please think out of the box, NetBeans is not a Java
> DIE anymore for years.
>
> We have patch Levels which is great but for new Features, I don’t know
> whether the patch Level is working.
>
> So Long Story short: 3 months, IMHO.
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Chris
>
> Von: Jan Lahoda
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 27. Juni 2018 10:02
> An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> Betreff: Re: [DISCUSS] Proposed Release ProcessWAS: Merging back netcat@
> intothe dev@ mailing list
>
> I'd personally prefer faster releases (i.e. 3 months or so).
>
> I'd suggest to try to minimize cherry-picking/backporting. One possible way
> is to have a window for merging features, and then only do
> stabilization/bugfixes in master for some time, and only then (closer to
> the release) do a branch, and only cherry-pick a limited # of changes.
>
> I believe this is the approach that has been used in NetBeans for quite
> some time, and, to me, it seemed to work fairly well. I believe the
> branching occurred a months (or so) before the release, but I may be wrong
> on that.
>
> But it surely is not the only process we could follow.
>
> Jan
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 6:01 PM, Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 at 13:34, John McDonnell <mc...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Might every 3 months be pushing it a little?
> > >
> > > We'll constantly be in a state of picking fixes for release -> testing
> ->
> > > fixing -> release -> picking fixes for release, etc..
> > >
> > > Something like 6 months is a little more relaxed as it gives us about
> 4
> > > months between releases to make changes, introduce new features to the
> > IDE,
> > > without rushing.
> >
> > Funnily enough, my view is that 3 months would be more relaxed,
> > because there's less stress to rush a new feature if it's not ready
> > when there's a new release cycle imminent. Likewise, this was
> > suggested on the basis of master being kept relatively stable, with
> > new features mainly being developed in branches until they're ready
> > for wider testing. With cherry-picking of changes from master into
> > the release branch (like is happening now), I don't see why all these
> > things cannot happen in parallel. A bit more Release Early, Release
> > Often, with some NetCAT still in the mix! ;-)
> >
> > I think I'm up to 4c.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Neil
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
AW: [DISCUSS] Proposed Release ProcessWAS: Merging back netcat@
intothe dev@ mailing list
Posted by Christian Lenz <ch...@gmx.net>.
Me too, 3 months sounds good and makes us competitive to e.g. IntelliJ. VS Code has once a month (This is my personal Dream but I know, that this is not doable, with our process, netcat, etc.). 6 Months is way to Long. Remember, that we don’t have only Java, so to make a release only when a new JDK is coming out, is inacceptable. Because we have C/C++, JS, HTML, CSS, PHP etc. etc. So please think out of the box, NetBeans is not a Java DIE anymore for years.
We have patch Levels which is great but for new Features, I don’t know whether the patch Level is working.
So Long Story short: 3 months, IMHO.
Cheers
Chris
Von: Jan Lahoda
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 27. Juni 2018 10:02
An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
Betreff: Re: [DISCUSS] Proposed Release ProcessWAS: Merging back netcat@ intothe dev@ mailing list
I'd personally prefer faster releases (i.e. 3 months or so).
I'd suggest to try to minimize cherry-picking/backporting. One possible way
is to have a window for merging features, and then only do
stabilization/bugfixes in master for some time, and only then (closer to
the release) do a branch, and only cherry-pick a limited # of changes.
I believe this is the approach that has been used in NetBeans for quite
some time, and, to me, it seemed to work fairly well. I believe the
branching occurred a months (or so) before the release, but I may be wrong
on that.
But it surely is not the only process we could follow.
Jan
On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 6:01 PM, Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 at 13:34, John McDonnell <mc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Might every 3 months be pushing it a little?
> >
> > We'll constantly be in a state of picking fixes for release -> testing ->
> > fixing -> release -> picking fixes for release, etc..
> >
> > Something like 6 months is a little more relaxed as it gives us about 4
> > months between releases to make changes, introduce new features to the
> IDE,
> > without rushing.
>
> Funnily enough, my view is that 3 months would be more relaxed,
> because there's less stress to rush a new feature if it's not ready
> when there's a new release cycle imminent. Likewise, this was
> suggested on the basis of master being kept relatively stable, with
> new features mainly being developed in branches until they're ready
> for wider testing. With cherry-picking of changes from master into
> the release branch (like is happening now), I don't see why all these
> things cannot happen in parallel. A bit more Release Early, Release
> Often, with some NetCAT still in the mix! ;-)
>
> I think I'm up to 4c.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Proposed Release ProcessWAS: Merging back netcat@ into
the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com>.
I'd personally prefer faster releases (i.e. 3 months or so).
I'd suggest to try to minimize cherry-picking/backporting. One possible way
is to have a window for merging features, and then only do
stabilization/bugfixes in master for some time, and only then (closer to
the release) do a branch, and only cherry-pick a limited # of changes.
I believe this is the approach that has been used in NetBeans for quite
some time, and, to me, it seemed to work fairly well. I believe the
branching occurred a months (or so) before the release, but I may be wrong
on that.
But it surely is not the only process we could follow.
Jan
On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 6:01 PM, Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 at 13:34, John McDonnell <mc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Might every 3 months be pushing it a little?
> >
> > We'll constantly be in a state of picking fixes for release -> testing ->
> > fixing -> release -> picking fixes for release, etc..
> >
> > Something like 6 months is a little more relaxed as it gives us about 4
> > months between releases to make changes, introduce new features to the
> IDE,
> > without rushing.
>
> Funnily enough, my view is that 3 months would be more relaxed,
> because there's less stress to rush a new feature if it's not ready
> when there's a new release cycle imminent. Likewise, this was
> suggested on the basis of master being kept relatively stable, with
> new features mainly being developed in branches until they're ready
> for wider testing. With cherry-picking of changes from master into
> the release branch (like is happening now), I don't see why all these
> things cannot happen in parallel. A bit more Release Early, Release
> Often, with some NetCAT still in the mix! ;-)
>
> I think I'm up to 4c.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Proposed Release ProcessWAS: Merging back netcat@ into
the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 at 13:34, John McDonnell <mc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Might every 3 months be pushing it a little?
>
> We'll constantly be in a state of picking fixes for release -> testing ->
> fixing -> release -> picking fixes for release, etc..
>
> Something like 6 months is a little more relaxed as it gives us about 4
> months between releases to make changes, introduce new features to the IDE,
> without rushing.
Funnily enough, my view is that 3 months would be more relaxed,
because there's less stress to rush a new feature if it's not ready
when there's a new release cycle imminent. Likewise, this was
suggested on the basis of master being kept relatively stable, with
new features mainly being developed in branches until they're ready
for wider testing. With cherry-picking of changes from master into
the release branch (like is happening now), I don't see why all these
things cannot happen in parallel. A bit more Release Early, Release
Often, with some NetCAT still in the mix! ;-)
I think I'm up to 4c.
Best wishes,
Neil
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Re: [DISCUSS] Proposed Release ProcessWAS: Merging back netcat@ into
the dev@ mailing list
Posted by John McDonnell <mc...@gmail.com>.
Might every 3 months be pushing it a little?
We'll constantly be in a state of picking fixes for release -> testing ->
fixing -> release -> picking fixes for release, etc..
Something like 6 months is a little more relaxed as it gives us about 4
months between releases to make changes, introduce new features to the IDE,
without rushing.
John
On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 at 12:38, Emilian Bold
<em...@protonmail.ch.invalid> wrote:
> Every 3 months sounds good.
>
> --emi
>
> ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
>
> On 26 June 2018 11:38 AM, Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 at 09:12, John McDonnell mcdonnell.john@gmail.com
> wrote:
> >
> > > Secondly, what is our release cadence? Are we planning every 6 months,
> > >
> > > maybe attempt to keep some alignment with the JDK release cycle, or
> > >
> > > something longer term, like 12 months?
> >
> > Thanks for kicking this off. Personally, while I'd be happy with 6
> >
> > months, I think aiming for quarterly releases would be a good thing
> >
> > after 9.0, as well as a fixed schedule so everyone know where things
> >
> > stand. Incremental changes, increasing the chances of PR features and
> >
> > bug fixes being out in the wild sooner, while not delaying releases
> >
> > when something isn't quite ready, because the next release will be out
> >
> > soon enough!
> >
> > My thought would be every 3 months -
> >
> > Day 0-30 : branch off master, cherrypick additional fixes aimed for
> >
> > release, prepare beta.
> >
> > Day 30-60 : release beta, shorter form of NetCAT.
> >
> > Day 60-90 : fix major issues raised in NetCAT, update docs, release.
> >
> > My 2c
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Neil
> >
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
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> >
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> >
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> >
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Proposed Release ProcessWAS: Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Emilian Bold <em...@protonmail.ch.INVALID>.
Every 3 months sounds good.
--emi
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On 26 June 2018 11:38 AM, Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 at 09:12, John McDonnell mcdonnell.john@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Secondly, what is our release cadence? Are we planning every 6 months,
> >
> > maybe attempt to keep some alignment with the JDK release cycle, or
> >
> > something longer term, like 12 months?
>
> Thanks for kicking this off. Personally, while I'd be happy with 6
>
> months, I think aiming for quarterly releases would be a good thing
>
> after 9.0, as well as a fixed schedule so everyone know where things
>
> stand. Incremental changes, increasing the chances of PR features and
>
> bug fixes being out in the wild sooner, while not delaying releases
>
> when something isn't quite ready, because the next release will be out
>
> soon enough!
>
> My thought would be every 3 months -
>
> Day 0-30 : branch off master, cherrypick additional fixes aimed for
>
> release, prepare beta.
>
> Day 30-60 : release beta, shorter form of NetCAT.
>
> Day 60-90 : fix major issues raised in NetCAT, update docs, release.
>
> My 2c
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Proposed Release ProcessWAS: Merging back netcat@ into
the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 at 09:12, John McDonnell <mc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Secondly, what is our release cadence? Are we planning every 6 months,
> maybe attempt to keep some alignment with the JDK release cycle, or
> something longer term, like 12 months?
Thanks for kicking this off. Personally, while I'd be happy with 6
months, I think aiming for quarterly releases would be a good thing
after 9.0, as well as a fixed schedule so everyone know where things
stand. Incremental changes, increasing the chances of PR features and
bug fixes being out in the wild sooner, while not delaying releases
when something isn't quite ready, because the next release will be out
soon enough!
My thought would be every 3 months -
Day 0-30 : branch off master, cherrypick additional fixes aimed for
release, prepare beta.
Day 30-60 : release beta, shorter form of NetCAT.
Day 60-90 : fix major issues raised in NetCAT, update docs, release.
My 2c
Best wishes,
Neil
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[DISCUSS] Proposed Release ProcessWAS: Merging back netcat@ into the
dev@ mailing list
Posted by John McDonnell <mc...@gmail.com>.
Hi All,
In this earlier thread I put forward proposal for a timeline for releases,
to encorporate NetCat testing and voting.
Day 0: dev mailing list agrees to initiate a release, - Code Branched into
specific release Branch & Jenkins updated
Day 0: NetCat Announced + Week of signups
Day 0-6: New and Noteworthy page created/updated (Useful for NetCat process
to see what new features they need to update their test specs with) +
Branding changes in the branch, etc...
Day 7: Test Spec Review Starts
Day 14-21: Testing Starts
Day 44-51: Testing Ends (roughly 30 days of testing?)
Day 51: 72 Hour NetCat Community Acceptance Vote (use to be a survey, but I
assume now it needs an email vote)
Day 55: 72 Hour PPMC Vote
Day 59: 72 Hour IPMC Vote
Day 64: Release
Before I create a wiki page for this, lets discuss. Is 2 months alittle
long to push out a release?
Secondly, what is our release cadence? Are we planning every 6 months,
maybe attempt to keep some alignment with the JDK release cycle, or
something longer term, like 12 months?
Lets discuss what every one thinks is the right way to go?
Regards
John
On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 at 08:53, Geertjan Wielenga
<ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> I think this discussion should take place on the NetCAT mailing list only
> -- and personally I'm not sure that it is the most urgent discussion at
> this point.
>
> Having a dedicated community focused on testing has always been a good
> thing -- whatever we do, we mustn't lose those dedicated people who have
> been so valuable and enthusiastic over many years.
>
> And many thanks John McDonnell for the proposed possible release cycle --
> to me it looks good and makes sense, maybe this could be put on the Wiki,
> and discussed in a separate thread.
>
> Gj
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 8:12 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> bdelacretaz@apache.org
> > wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 12:46 AM Antonio <an...@vieiro.net> wrote:
> > >... Has anybody asked _them_ about this merge? What do they think?...
> >
> > The original post in this thread was cross-posted to both dev and netcat
> > lists.
> >
> > -Bertrand
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Emilian Bold <em...@protonmail.ch.INVALID>.
> I think this discussion should take place on the NetCAT mailing list only
> -- and personally I'm not sure that it is the most urgent discussion at
> this point.
I think this further proves it's a bad idea to have multiple mailing lists. We aren't even capable of having a discussion involving the whole community!
> Having a dedicated community focused on testing has always been a good
> thing -- whatever we do, we mustn't lose those dedicated people who have
> been so valuable and enthusiastic over many years.
Nobody is trying to scare NetCAT folks, that's a given.
Seems to me that NetCAT just continued work as if nothing happened: they got their Synergy VM, a separate mailing list and continued as before.
But the Apache move is not a small thing and NetCAT should also adapt. If anything, NetCAT's role might be better than ever, but we have to discuss about this first.
--emi
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On 26 June 2018 10:53 AM, Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID> wrote:
> I think this discussion should take place on the NetCAT mailing list only
>
> -- and personally I'm not sure that it is the most urgent discussion at
>
> this point.
>
> Having a dedicated community focused on testing has always been a good
>
> thing -- whatever we do, we mustn't lose those dedicated people who have
>
> been so valuable and enthusiastic over many years.
>
> And many thanks John McDonnell for the proposed possible release cycle --
>
> to me it looks good and makes sense, maybe this could be put on the Wiki,
>
> and discussed in a separate thread.
>
> Gj
>
> On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 8:12 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bdelacretaz@apache.org
>
> > wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 12:46 AM Antonio antonio@vieiro.net wrote:
> >
> > > ... Has anybody asked them about this merge? What do they think?...
> >
> > The original post in this thread was cross-posted to both dev and netcat
> >
> > lists.
> >
> > -Bertrand
> >
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> >
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> >
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
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Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID>.
I think this discussion should take place on the NetCAT mailing list only
-- and personally I'm not sure that it is the most urgent discussion at
this point.
Having a dedicated community focused on testing has always been a good
thing -- whatever we do, we mustn't lose those dedicated people who have
been so valuable and enthusiastic over many years.
And many thanks John McDonnell for the proposed possible release cycle --
to me it looks good and makes sense, maybe this could be put on the Wiki,
and discussed in a separate thread.
Gj
On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 8:12 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bdelacretaz@apache.org
> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 12:46 AM Antonio <an...@vieiro.net> wrote:
> >... Has anybody asked _them_ about this merge? What do they think?...
>
> The original post in this thread was cross-posted to both dev and netcat
> lists.
>
> -Bertrand
>
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>
>
>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 12:46 AM Antonio <an...@vieiro.net> wrote:
>... Has anybody asked _them_ about this merge? What do they think?...
The original post in this thread was cross-posted to both dev and netcat lists.
-Bertrand
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Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Junichi Yamamoto <ju...@gmail.com>.
> I think all committers must subscribe to the NetCAT mailing list. But
> I'm not sure the opposite is true.
I agree with that. Subscribed it.
Thanks,
Junichi
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Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Antonio <an...@vieiro.net>.
On 25/06/18 10:01, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 11:15 PM Emilian Bold
> <em...@protonmail.ch.invalid> wrote:
>> ...The dev@ mailing list is our Apache 'central square' so to speak and even
>> if we don't work on the same particular issue, we should get to know
>> each-other, at least by name....
>
> My recommendation as an incubation mentor is indeed to bring netcat
> traffic on the dev list, in the spirit of having a single community -
> systematically using a [netcat] subject line header for (visual or
> machine) filtering.
I think all committers must subscribe to the NetCAT mailing list. But
I'm not sure the opposite is true.
Has anybody asked _them_ about this merge? What do they think? Maybe
_they_ want to keep a QA _focused_ mailing list, completely isolated
from all these dev chats? Will the merge disturb the way they organize
themselves?
Cheers,
Antonio
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Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 11:15 PM Emilian Bold
<em...@protonmail.ch.invalid> wrote:
> ...The dev@ mailing list is our Apache 'central square' so to speak and even
> if we don't work on the same particular issue, we should get to know
> each-other, at least by name....
My recommendation as an incubation mentor is indeed to bring netcat
traffic on the dev list, in the spirit of having a single community -
systematically using a [netcat] subject line header for (visual or
machine) filtering.
Actually, given the many modules that make up NetBeans, it might be a
good idea to use [subject line tags] more extensively to help focus
conversations. The OpenStack dev list is a great example of that [1].
-Bertrand
[1] http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-June/thread.html
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Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi,
On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 11:13 PM Sven Reimers <sv...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...3. How about ensuring that NetCAT has a representative as part of the
> (i/P)PMC - then those people can just vote -1 on a release and we do not
> need any other additional means....
Note that release votes are majority votes, as per
https://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html vetoes only exist for
code changes.
The way a PMC usually takes the "voice of the community" into account
is to listen to it and wherever possible act accordingly, but it's not
a formal requirement.
One way to handle this might be to wait for NetCAT to approve a
release before the PMC declares it final, and use alpha/beta etc.
candidates before that - but it's the (P)PMC who's in charge with
that, from a formal point of view.
-Bertrand
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Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by John McDonnell <mc...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
Adding my 2 cents...
1. NetCat is an important part of NetBeans release process, and we need to
find a way to make it work moving forward, in the Apache NetBeans world we
live in now.
2. I don't agree, in their current state for the dev and netcat lists to be
merged, I think there's a lot of traffic on both, and some people might
only be using NetCat for testing their favourite IDE, and don't need or
might want to care about the dev mailing list. But I understand the need
to hear their voice/vote when it comes to releases, so if merged I won't
have a problem.
My concern is how do we see releases happening moving forward? are we
thinking every 6 months or a slower paced every 12 months or something else
entirely?
Once we know that, how do we build a process that fits a suitable timeline
for a release?
For example, lets say tomorrow the dev mailing lists agrees to initiate a
release. What do we do, what process are we following?
Based on my understanding of Apache and NetCat I would see it roughly as:
Day 0: dev mailing list agrees to initiate a release, - Code Branched into
specific release Branch & Jenkins updated
Day 0: NetCat Announced + Week of signups
Day 0-6: New and Noteworthy page created/updated (Useful for NetCat process
to see what new features they need to update their test specs with) +
Branding changes in the branch, etc...
Day 7: Test Spec Review Starts
Day 14-21: Testing Starts
Day 44-51: Testing Ends (roughly 30 days of testing?)
Day 51: 72 Hour NetCat Community Acceptance Vote (use to be a survey, but I
assume now it needs an email vote)
Day 55: 72 Hour PPMC Vote
Day 59: 72 Hour IPMC Vote
Day 64: Release
That's roughly 2 months from the dev mailing list identifying a release.
Assuming everything is on the happy path. Is this the process we want to
move forward with? Or do we need to consider tweaks now, because to me,
once we identify the release process, and how NetCat sits in it now that
we're in Apache, then we know what to do with their mailing lists.
Regards
John
On Mon, 25 Jun 2018 at 22:13, Sven Reimers <sv...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> as part of NetCAT and PPMC here is my take.
>
> 1. NetCAT is very valuable as a resource for providing a high quality
> release - volunteers are putting a lot of effort into going through all the
> features checking everything works - we should make this in integral part
> of our Apache NetBeans story.
>
> 2. From an Apache perspective there is only the vote of (I/P)PMC - and I
> think we should play by those rules.
>
> 3. How about ensuring that NetCAT has a representative as part of the
> (i/P)PMC - then those people can just vote -1 on a release and we do not
> need any other additional means. Jiří Kovalský, David Heffelfinger and
> other people are part of our PPMC so we (including myself) could listen to
> a vote from the NetCAT tribe leaders and vote accordingly. Would this be
> good enough?
>
> 4. Merge the lists - With the additional work of the NetCAT team updating
> the specs I see more interaction necessary with the dev list. So probably
> 90% of all NetCat traffic is dev relevant - maybe we can try to figure out
> a way to reduce spamming dev with the organizational bits and pieces -
> although dev's may be interested in all this as well...
>
> Comments?
>
> -Sven
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 6:48 PM Emilian Bold
> <em...@protonmail.ch.invalid> wrote:
>
> > > Just hoping we can find a place for NetCAT and that forceably
> > disbandening
> > > it is in nobody’s interest.
> >
> > I believe NetCAT might be our "strategic advantage" compared to the other
> > open-source projects. So, I like it a lot!
> >
> > I just wish I would get to know these people and since I consider their
> > work a proper contribution I would like to meet them on dev@.
> >
> > The NetCAT bylaws though might need some fine-tuning in light of how
> > things are done under Apache.
> >
> > --emi
> >
> > ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
> >
> > On 25 June 2018 6:47 PM, Geertjan Wielenga
> > <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID> wrote:
> >
> > > I’m fine with that too. I’m not disputing or puting (?) anything at
> all.
> > >
> > > Just hoping we can find a place for NetCAT and that forceably
> > disbandening
> > >
> > > it is in nobody’s interest.
> > >
> > > Gj
> > >
> > > On Monday, June 25, 2018, Emilian Bold emilian.bold@protonmail.ch
> > .invalid
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > > Their
> > > > >
> > > > > go/nogo should simply be done before we start the PPMC vote, where
> > > > >
> > > > > they're
> > > > >
> > > > > able to vote too if they like.
> > > >
> > > > This is a separate topic. I dispute the idea that NetCAT should have
> a
> > > >
> > > > go/nogo about what the PPMC should vote on.
> > > >
> > > > --emi
> > > >
> > > > ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
> > > >
> > > > On 25 June 2018 4:48 PM, Geertjan Wielenga
> > geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com.INVALID
> > > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I can see the advantage of combining the two but I don't see any
> > > > >
> > > > > disadvantages in having a separate dedicated testing community.
> Their
> > > > >
> > > > > go/nogo should simply be done before we start the PPMC vote, where
> > > > >
> > > > > they're
> > > > >
> > > > > able to vote too if they like.
> > > > >
> > > > > Gj
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 3:23 PM, Kai Uwe Pel kaiuwepel@asia.com
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Sorry mistyped ... I fully agree with Luca's suggestions to have
> a
> > > > > >
> > > > > > separate list for NetCat.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > K.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 6/25/2018 2:48 PM, Kai Uwe Pel wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Honestly,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Kai
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 6/25/2018 1:46 PM, Luca Mambretti wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > My personal opinion is that I would prefer NetCat to stay a
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > separate
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > list, mainly because of focus, it's true that using proper
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > subjects helps
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > but to me community acceptance, and development are separate
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > things, and I
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > do think feedback from the user community should be treated
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > differently
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > than feedback from the developer community.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That said something from NetCat might be of interest to dev,
> > but
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > most
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > probably not the other way around (at least that is my
> feeling
> > on
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > this), so
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > maybe a good compromise would be to setup some sort of
> > redirect so
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > NetCat emails would also be seen by developement and if
> > something
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > is deemed
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > interesting by developement then by replying to the mail both
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > lists would
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > be involved.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > For voting purposes if NetCat has to be included in the
> voting
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > process
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > then the voting email might be sent also to the NetCat list,
> > but
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > that could
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > also be handled using a proper acceptance survey like the
> ones
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > that were
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > previously used in the Oracle era, but that maybe is not
> > really in
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > line
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > with Apache policies.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Luca.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ----- Messaggio originale -----
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Da: "Neil C Smith" neilcsmith@apache.org
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > A: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org, "netcat" <
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > netcat@netbeans.apache.org>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Inviato: Lunedì, 25 giugno 2018 10:35:59
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Oggetto: Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@
> > mailing
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > list
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Sun, 24 Jun 2018 at 23:07, Wade Chandler
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > wadechandler@apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > That said, it would be good to see the netcat members view
> on
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > it. One
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > certainly contribute there without all the dev@ noise if
> > they
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > like it,
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > from their view, it may not be so simple. I really think
> that
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > should
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > some weight.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Re-adding netcat@ (ironically! ;-) )
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I agree with you that the opinion of the netcat@ list is
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > important.
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > If part of the point of NetCAT is to engage active /
> > experienced
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > users
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > in testing, then does bringing that conversation into dev@
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > discourage
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > that or not?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It makes sense that everyone on dev@ is subscribed to
> netcat@,
> > but
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > does the reverse also apply? Be interested in the input of
> > anyone
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > on
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > netcat@ who is not on the dev@ list, and the reasons behind
> > that,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > before any vote on this.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Best wishes,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Neil
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> netcat-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > netcat-help@netbeans.apache.org
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists,
> > visit:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists,
> > visit:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists,
> visit:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > >
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > >
> > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > >
> > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Sven Reimers
>
> * Senior Expert Software Architect
> * Java Champion
> * NetBeans Dream Team Member: http://dreamteam.netbeans.org
> * Community Leader NetBeans: http://community.java.net/netbeans
> Desktop Java:
> http://community.java.net/javadesktop
> * JUG Leader JUG Bodensee: http://www.jug-bodensee.de
> * Duke's Choice Award Winner 2009
>
> * XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Sven_Reimers8
> * LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/svenreimers
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Sven Reimers <sv...@gmail.com>.
Hi all,
as part of NetCAT and PPMC here is my take.
1. NetCAT is very valuable as a resource for providing a high quality
release - volunteers are putting a lot of effort into going through all the
features checking everything works - we should make this in integral part
of our Apache NetBeans story.
2. From an Apache perspective there is only the vote of (I/P)PMC - and I
think we should play by those rules.
3. How about ensuring that NetCAT has a representative as part of the
(i/P)PMC - then those people can just vote -1 on a release and we do not
need any other additional means. Jiří Kovalský, David Heffelfinger and
other people are part of our PPMC so we (including myself) could listen to
a vote from the NetCAT tribe leaders and vote accordingly. Would this be
good enough?
4. Merge the lists - With the additional work of the NetCAT team updating
the specs I see more interaction necessary with the dev list. So probably
90% of all NetCat traffic is dev relevant - maybe we can try to figure out
a way to reduce spamming dev with the organizational bits and pieces -
although dev's may be interested in all this as well...
Comments?
-Sven
On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 6:48 PM Emilian Bold
<em...@protonmail.ch.invalid> wrote:
> > Just hoping we can find a place for NetCAT and that forceably
> disbandening
> > it is in nobody’s interest.
>
> I believe NetCAT might be our "strategic advantage" compared to the other
> open-source projects. So, I like it a lot!
>
> I just wish I would get to know these people and since I consider their
> work a proper contribution I would like to meet them on dev@.
>
> The NetCAT bylaws though might need some fine-tuning in light of how
> things are done under Apache.
>
> --emi
>
> ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
>
> On 25 June 2018 6:47 PM, Geertjan Wielenga
> <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID> wrote:
>
> > I’m fine with that too. I’m not disputing or puting (?) anything at all.
> >
> > Just hoping we can find a place for NetCAT and that forceably
> disbandening
> >
> > it is in nobody’s interest.
> >
> > Gj
> >
> > On Monday, June 25, 2018, Emilian Bold emilian.bold@protonmail.ch
> .invalid
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > > Their
> > > >
> > > > go/nogo should simply be done before we start the PPMC vote, where
> > > >
> > > > they're
> > > >
> > > > able to vote too if they like.
> > >
> > > This is a separate topic. I dispute the idea that NetCAT should have a
> > >
> > > go/nogo about what the PPMC should vote on.
> > >
> > > --emi
> > >
> > > ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
> > >
> > > On 25 June 2018 4:48 PM, Geertjan Wielenga
> geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com.INVALID
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I can see the advantage of combining the two but I don't see any
> > > >
> > > > disadvantages in having a separate dedicated testing community. Their
> > > >
> > > > go/nogo should simply be done before we start the PPMC vote, where
> > > >
> > > > they're
> > > >
> > > > able to vote too if they like.
> > > >
> > > > Gj
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 3:23 PM, Kai Uwe Pel kaiuwepel@asia.com
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Sorry mistyped ... I fully agree with Luca's suggestions to have a
> > > > >
> > > > > separate list for NetCat.
> > > > >
> > > > > K.
> > > > >
> > > > > On 6/25/2018 2:48 PM, Kai Uwe Pel wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Honestly,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Kai
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 6/25/2018 1:46 PM, Luca Mambretti wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > My personal opinion is that I would prefer NetCat to stay a
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > separate
> > > >
> > > > > > > list, mainly because of focus, it's true that using proper
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > subjects helps
> > > >
> > > > > > > but to me community acceptance, and development are separate
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > things, and I
> > > >
> > > > > > > do think feedback from the user community should be treated
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > differently
> > > >
> > > > > > > than feedback from the developer community.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That said something from NetCat might be of interest to dev,
> but
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > most
> > > >
> > > > > > > probably not the other way around (at least that is my feeling
> on
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > this), so
> > > >
> > > > > > > maybe a good compromise would be to setup some sort of
> redirect so
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > that
> > > >
> > > > > > > NetCat emails would also be seen by developement and if
> something
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > is deemed
> > > >
> > > > > > > interesting by developement then by replying to the mail both
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > lists would
> > > >
> > > > > > > be involved.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > For voting purposes if NetCat has to be included in the voting
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > process
> > > >
> > > > > > > then the voting email might be sent also to the NetCat list,
> but
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > that could
> > > >
> > > > > > > also be handled using a proper acceptance survey like the ones
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > that were
> > > >
> > > > > > > previously used in the Oracle era, but that maybe is not
> really in
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > line
> > > >
> > > > > > > with Apache policies.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Luca.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Messaggio originale -----
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Da: "Neil C Smith" neilcsmith@apache.org
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org, "netcat" <
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > netcat@netbeans.apache.org>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Inviato: Lunedì, 25 giugno 2018 10:35:59
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Oggetto: Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@
> mailing
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > list
> > > >
> > > > > > > On Sun, 24 Jun 2018 at 23:07, Wade Chandler
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > wadechandler@apache.org
> > > >
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That said, it would be good to see the netcat members view on
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > it. One
> > > >
> > > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > certainly contribute there without all the dev@ noise if
> they
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > like it,
> > > >
> > > > > > > > so
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > from their view, it may not be so simple. I really think that
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > should
> > > >
> > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > some weight.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Re-adding netcat@ (ironically! ;-) )
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I agree with you that the opinion of the netcat@ list is
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > important.
> > > >
> > > > > > > If part of the point of NetCAT is to engage active /
> experienced
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > users
> > > >
> > > > > > > in testing, then does bringing that conversation into dev@
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > discourage
> > > >
> > > > > > > that or not?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It makes sense that everyone on dev@ is subscribed to netcat@,
> but
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > does the reverse also apply? Be interested in the input of
> anyone
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > on
> > > >
> > > > > > > netcat@ who is not on the dev@ list, and the reasons behind
> that,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > before any vote on this.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Best wishes,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Neil
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: netcat-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> netcat-help@netbeans.apache.org
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists,
> visit:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > >
> > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > >
> > > > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists,
> visit:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > >
> > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > >
> > > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > > >
> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > > >
> > > > > dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > >
> > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > > >
> > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > >
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > >
> > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > >
> > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>
--
Sven Reimers
* Senior Expert Software Architect
* Java Champion
* NetBeans Dream Team Member: http://dreamteam.netbeans.org
* Community Leader NetBeans: http://community.java.net/netbeans
Desktop Java:
http://community.java.net/javadesktop
* JUG Leader JUG Bodensee: http://www.jug-bodensee.de
* Duke's Choice Award Winner 2009
* XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Sven_Reimers8
* LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/svenreimers
Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Emilian Bold <em...@protonmail.ch.INVALID>.
> Just hoping we can find a place for NetCAT and that forceably disbandening
> it is in nobody’s interest.
I believe NetCAT might be our "strategic advantage" compared to the other open-source projects. So, I like it a lot!
I just wish I would get to know these people and since I consider their work a proper contribution I would like to meet them on dev@.
The NetCAT bylaws though might need some fine-tuning in light of how things are done under Apache.
--emi
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On 25 June 2018 6:47 PM, Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID> wrote:
> I’m fine with that too. I’m not disputing or puting (?) anything at all.
>
> Just hoping we can find a place for NetCAT and that forceably disbandening
>
> it is in nobody’s interest.
>
> Gj
>
> On Monday, June 25, 2018, Emilian Bold emilian.bold@protonmail.ch.invalid
>
> wrote:
>
> > > Their
> > >
> > > go/nogo should simply be done before we start the PPMC vote, where
> > >
> > > they're
> > >
> > > able to vote too if they like.
> >
> > This is a separate topic. I dispute the idea that NetCAT should have a
> >
> > go/nogo about what the PPMC should vote on.
> >
> > --emi
> >
> > ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
> >
> > On 25 June 2018 4:48 PM, Geertjan Wielenga geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com.INVALID
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I can see the advantage of combining the two but I don't see any
> > >
> > > disadvantages in having a separate dedicated testing community. Their
> > >
> > > go/nogo should simply be done before we start the PPMC vote, where
> > >
> > > they're
> > >
> > > able to vote too if they like.
> > >
> > > Gj
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 3:23 PM, Kai Uwe Pel kaiuwepel@asia.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > Sorry mistyped ... I fully agree with Luca's suggestions to have a
> > > >
> > > > separate list for NetCat.
> > > >
> > > > K.
> > > >
> > > > On 6/25/2018 2:48 PM, Kai Uwe Pel wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Honestly,
> > > > >
> > > > > Best regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > Kai
> > > > >
> > > > > On 6/25/2018 1:46 PM, Luca Mambretti wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > My personal opinion is that I would prefer NetCat to stay a
> > > > > >
> > > > > > separate
> > >
> > > > > > list, mainly because of focus, it's true that using proper
> > > > > >
> > > > > > subjects helps
> > >
> > > > > > but to me community acceptance, and development are separate
> > > > > >
> > > > > > things, and I
> > >
> > > > > > do think feedback from the user community should be treated
> > > > > >
> > > > > > differently
> > >
> > > > > > than feedback from the developer community.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That said something from NetCat might be of interest to dev, but
> > > > > >
> > > > > > most
> > >
> > > > > > probably not the other way around (at least that is my feeling on
> > > > > >
> > > > > > this), so
> > >
> > > > > > maybe a good compromise would be to setup some sort of redirect so
> > > > > >
> > > > > > that
> > >
> > > > > > NetCat emails would also be seen by developement and if something
> > > > > >
> > > > > > is deemed
> > >
> > > > > > interesting by developement then by replying to the mail both
> > > > > >
> > > > > > lists would
> > >
> > > > > > be involved.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For voting purposes if NetCat has to be included in the voting
> > > > > >
> > > > > > process
> > >
> > > > > > then the voting email might be sent also to the NetCat list, but
> > > > > >
> > > > > > that could
> > >
> > > > > > also be handled using a proper acceptance survey like the ones
> > > > > >
> > > > > > that were
> > >
> > > > > > previously used in the Oracle era, but that maybe is not really in
> > > > > >
> > > > > > line
> > >
> > > > > > with Apache policies.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Luca.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Messaggio originale -----
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Da: "Neil C Smith" neilcsmith@apache.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org, "netcat" <
> > > > > >
> > > > > > netcat@netbeans.apache.org>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Inviato: Lunedì, 25 giugno 2018 10:35:59
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Oggetto: Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing
> > > > > >
> > > > > > list
> > >
> > > > > > On Sun, 24 Jun 2018 at 23:07, Wade Chandler
> > > > > >
> > > > > > wadechandler@apache.org
> > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > That said, it would be good to see the netcat members view on
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > it. One
> > >
> > > > > > > can
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > certainly contribute there without all the dev@ noise if they
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > like it,
> > >
> > > > > > > so
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > from their view, it may not be so simple. I really think that
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > should
> > >
> > > > > > > have
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > some weight.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Re-adding netcat@ (ironically! ;-) )
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I agree with you that the opinion of the netcat@ list is
> > > > > >
> > > > > > important.
> > >
> > > > > > If part of the point of NetCAT is to engage active / experienced
> > > > > >
> > > > > > users
> > >
> > > > > > in testing, then does bringing that conversation into dev@
> > > > > >
> > > > > > discourage
> > >
> > > > > > that or not?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It makes sense that everyone on dev@ is subscribed to netcat@, but
> > > > > >
> > > > > > does the reverse also apply? Be interested in the input of anyone
> > > > > >
> > > > > > on
> > >
> > > > > > netcat@ who is not on the dev@ list, and the reasons behind that,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > before any vote on this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best wishes,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Neil
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: netcat-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: netcat-help@netbeans.apache.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > >
> > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > >
> > > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > > >
> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > > >
> > > > > dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > >
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > > >
> > > > > dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > >
> > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > > >
> > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > >
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > >
> > > > dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > >
> > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > >
> > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> >
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> >
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> >
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
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Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID>.
I’m fine with that too. I’m not disputing or puting (?) anything at all.
Just hoping we can find a place for NetCAT and that forceably disbandening
it is in nobody’s interest.
Gj
On Monday, June 25, 2018, Emilian Bold <em...@protonmail.ch.invalid>
wrote:
> > Their
> > go/nogo should simply be done before we start the PPMC vote, where
> they're
> > able to vote too if they like.
>
> This is a separate topic. I dispute the idea that NetCAT should have a
> go/nogo about what the PPMC should vote on.
>
> --emi
>
> ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
>
> On 25 June 2018 4:48 PM, Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID>
> wrote:
>
> > I can see the advantage of combining the two but I don't see any
> >
> > disadvantages in having a separate dedicated testing community. Their
> >
> > go/nogo should simply be done before we start the PPMC vote, where
> they're
> >
> > able to vote too if they like.
> >
> > Gj
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 3:23 PM, Kai Uwe Pel kaiuwepel@asia.com wrote:
> >
> > > Sorry mistyped ... I fully agree with Luca's suggestions to have a
> > >
> > > separate list for NetCat.
> > >
> > > K.
> > >
> > > On 6/25/2018 2:48 PM, Kai Uwe Pel wrote:
> > >
> > > > Honestly,
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > >
> > > > Kai
> > > >
> > > > On 6/25/2018 1:46 PM, Luca Mambretti wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > My personal opinion is that I would prefer NetCat to stay a
> separate
> > > > >
> > > > > list, mainly because of focus, it's true that using proper
> subjects helps
> > > > >
> > > > > but to me community acceptance, and development are separate
> things, and I
> > > > >
> > > > > do think feedback from the user community should be treated
> differently
> > > > >
> > > > > than feedback from the developer community.
> > > > >
> > > > > That said something from NetCat might be of interest to dev, but
> most
> > > > >
> > > > > probably not the other way around (at least that is my feeling on
> this), so
> > > > >
> > > > > maybe a good compromise would be to setup some sort of redirect so
> that
> > > > >
> > > > > NetCat emails would also be seen by developement and if something
> is deemed
> > > > >
> > > > > interesting by developement then by replying to the mail both
> lists would
> > > > >
> > > > > be involved.
> > > > >
> > > > > For voting purposes if NetCat has to be included in the voting
> process
> > > > >
> > > > > then the voting email might be sent also to the NetCat list, but
> that could
> > > > >
> > > > > also be handled using a proper acceptance survey like the ones
> that were
> > > > >
> > > > > previously used in the Oracle era, but that maybe is not really in
> line
> > > > >
> > > > > with Apache policies.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > Luca.
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Messaggio originale -----
> > > > >
> > > > > Da: "Neil C Smith" neilcsmith@apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > > A: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org, "netcat" <
> > > > >
> > > > > netcat@netbeans.apache.org>
> > > > >
> > > > > Inviato: Lunedì, 25 giugno 2018 10:35:59
> > > > >
> > > > > Oggetto: Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing
> list
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, 24 Jun 2018 at 23:07, Wade Chandler
> wadechandler@apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > That said, it would be good to see the netcat members view on
> it. One
> > > > > >
> > > > > > can
> > > > > >
> > > > > > certainly contribute there without all the dev@ noise if they
> like it,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > so
> > > > > >
> > > > > > from their view, it may not be so simple. I really think that
> should
> > > > > >
> > > > > > have
> > > > > >
> > > > > > some weight.
> > > > >
> > > > > Re-adding netcat@ (ironically! ;-) )
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree with you that the opinion of the netcat@ list is
> important.
> > > > >
> > > > > If part of the point of NetCAT is to engage active / experienced
> users
> > > > >
> > > > > in testing, then does bringing that conversation into dev@
> discourage
> > > > >
> > > > > that or not?
> > > > >
> > > > > It makes sense that everyone on dev@ is subscribed to netcat@, but
> > > > >
> > > > > does the reverse also apply? Be interested in the input of anyone
> on
> > > > >
> > > > > netcat@ who is not on the dev@ list, and the reasons behind that,
> > > > >
> > > > > before any vote on this.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best wishes,
> > > > >
> > > > > Neil
> > > > >
> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: netcat-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: netcat-help@netbeans.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > > >
> > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > > >
> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > > >
> > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > >
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > >
> > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > >
> > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > >
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > >
> > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > >
> > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Emilian Bold <em...@protonmail.ch.INVALID>.
> Their
> go/nogo should simply be done before we start the PPMC vote, where they're
> able to vote too if they like.
This is a separate topic. I dispute the idea that NetCAT should have a go/nogo about what the PPMC should vote on.
--emi
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On 25 June 2018 4:48 PM, Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID> wrote:
> I can see the advantage of combining the two but I don't see any
>
> disadvantages in having a separate dedicated testing community. Their
>
> go/nogo should simply be done before we start the PPMC vote, where they're
>
> able to vote too if they like.
>
> Gj
>
> On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 3:23 PM, Kai Uwe Pel kaiuwepel@asia.com wrote:
>
> > Sorry mistyped ... I fully agree with Luca's suggestions to have a
> >
> > separate list for NetCat.
> >
> > K.
> >
> > On 6/25/2018 2:48 PM, Kai Uwe Pel wrote:
> >
> > > Honestly,
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Kai
> > >
> > > On 6/25/2018 1:46 PM, Luca Mambretti wrote:
> > >
> > > > My personal opinion is that I would prefer NetCat to stay a separate
> > > >
> > > > list, mainly because of focus, it's true that using proper subjects helps
> > > >
> > > > but to me community acceptance, and development are separate things, and I
> > > >
> > > > do think feedback from the user community should be treated differently
> > > >
> > > > than feedback from the developer community.
> > > >
> > > > That said something from NetCat might be of interest to dev, but most
> > > >
> > > > probably not the other way around (at least that is my feeling on this), so
> > > >
> > > > maybe a good compromise would be to setup some sort of redirect so that
> > > >
> > > > NetCat emails would also be seen by developement and if something is deemed
> > > >
> > > > interesting by developement then by replying to the mail both lists would
> > > >
> > > > be involved.
> > > >
> > > > For voting purposes if NetCat has to be included in the voting process
> > > >
> > > > then the voting email might be sent also to the NetCat list, but that could
> > > >
> > > > also be handled using a proper acceptance survey like the ones that were
> > > >
> > > > previously used in the Oracle era, but that maybe is not really in line
> > > >
> > > > with Apache policies.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Luca.
> > > >
> > > > ----- Messaggio originale -----
> > > >
> > > > Da: "Neil C Smith" neilcsmith@apache.org
> > > >
> > > > A: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org, "netcat" <
> > > >
> > > > netcat@netbeans.apache.org>
> > > >
> > > > Inviato: Lunedì, 25 giugno 2018 10:35:59
> > > >
> > > > Oggetto: Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, 24 Jun 2018 at 23:07, Wade Chandler wadechandler@apache.org
> > > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > That said, it would be good to see the netcat members view on it. One
> > > > >
> > > > > can
> > > > >
> > > > > certainly contribute there without all the dev@ noise if they like it,
> > > > >
> > > > > so
> > > > >
> > > > > from their view, it may not be so simple. I really think that should
> > > > >
> > > > > have
> > > > >
> > > > > some weight.
> > > >
> > > > Re-adding netcat@ (ironically! ;-) )
> > > >
> > > > I agree with you that the opinion of the netcat@ list is important.
> > > >
> > > > If part of the point of NetCAT is to engage active / experienced users
> > > >
> > > > in testing, then does bringing that conversation into dev@ discourage
> > > >
> > > > that or not?
> > > >
> > > > It makes sense that everyone on dev@ is subscribed to netcat@, but
> > > >
> > > > does the reverse also apply? Be interested in the input of anyone on
> > > >
> > > > netcat@ who is not on the dev@ list, and the reasons behind that,
> > > >
> > > > before any vote on this.
> > > >
> > > > Best wishes,
> > > >
> > > > Neil
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: netcat-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> > > >
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: netcat-help@netbeans.apache.org
> > > >
> > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > >
> > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > >
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > >
> > > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > >
> > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > >
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > >
> > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > >
> > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> >
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> >
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
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Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID>.
I can see the advantage of combining the two but I don't see any
disadvantages in having a separate dedicated testing community. Their
go/nogo should simply be done before we start the PPMC vote, where they're
able to vote too if they like.
Gj
On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 3:23 PM, Kai Uwe Pel <ka...@asia.com> wrote:
> Sorry mistyped ... I fully agree with Luca's suggestions to have a
> separate list for NetCat.
>
> K.
>
> On 6/25/2018 2:48 PM, Kai Uwe Pel wrote:
>
>> Honestly,
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Kai
>>
>> On 6/25/2018 1:46 PM, Luca Mambretti wrote:
>>
>>> My personal opinion is that I would prefer NetCat to stay a separate
>>> list, mainly because of focus, it's true that using proper subjects helps
>>> but to me community acceptance, and development are separate things, and I
>>> do think feedback from the user community should be treated differently
>>> than feedback from the developer community.
>>>
>>> That said something from NetCat might be of interest to dev, but most
>>> probably not the other way around (at least that is my feeling on this), so
>>> maybe a good compromise would be to setup some sort of redirect so that
>>> NetCat emails would also be seen by developement and if something is deemed
>>> interesting by developement then by replying to the mail both lists would
>>> be involved.
>>>
>>> For voting purposes if NetCat has to be included in the voting process
>>> then the voting email might be sent also to the NetCat list, but that could
>>> also be handled using a proper acceptance survey like the ones that were
>>> previously used in the Oracle era, but that maybe is not really in line
>>> with Apache policies.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Luca.
>>>
>>> ----- Messaggio originale -----
>>> Da: "Neil C Smith" <ne...@apache.org>
>>> A: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org, "netcat" <
>>> netcat@netbeans.apache.org>
>>> Inviato: Lunedì, 25 giugno 2018 10:35:59
>>> Oggetto: Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
>>>
>>> On Sun, 24 Jun 2018 at 23:07, Wade Chandler <wa...@apache.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> That said, it would be good to see the netcat members view on it. One
>>>> can
>>>> certainly contribute there without all the dev@ noise if they like it,
>>>> so
>>>> from their view, it may not be so simple. I really think that should
>>>> have
>>>> some weight.
>>>>
>>> Re-adding netcat@ (ironically! ;-) )
>>>
>>> I agree with you that the opinion of the netcat@ list is important.
>>> If part of the point of NetCAT is to engage active / experienced users
>>> in testing, then does bringing that conversation into dev@ discourage
>>> that or not?
>>>
>>> It makes sense that everyone on dev@ is subscribed to netcat@, but
>>> does the reverse also apply? Be interested in the input of anyone on
>>> netcat@ who is not on the dev@ list, and the reasons behind that,
>>> before any vote on this.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Neil
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: netcat-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: netcat-help@netbeans.apache.org
>>>
>>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>>
>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Kai Uwe Pel <ka...@asia.com>.
Sorry mistyped ... I fully agree with Luca's suggestions to have a
separate list for NetCat.
K.
On 6/25/2018 2:48 PM, Kai Uwe Pel wrote:
> Honestly,
>
> Best regards,
> Kai
>
> On 6/25/2018 1:46 PM, Luca Mambretti wrote:
>> My personal opinion is that I would prefer NetCat to stay a separate
>> list, mainly because of focus, it's true that using proper subjects
>> helps but to me community acceptance, and development are separate
>> things, and I do think feedback from the user community should be
>> treated differently than feedback from the developer community.
>>
>> That said something from NetCat might be of interest to dev, but most
>> probably not the other way around (at least that is my feeling on
>> this), so maybe a good compromise would be to setup some sort of
>> redirect so that NetCat emails would also be seen by developement and
>> if something is deemed interesting by developement then by replying
>> to the mail both lists would be involved.
>>
>> For voting purposes if NetCat has to be included in the voting
>> process then the voting email might be sent also to the NetCat list,
>> but that could also be handled using a proper acceptance survey like
>> the ones that were previously used in the Oracle era, but that maybe
>> is not really in line with Apache policies.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Luca.
>>
>> ----- Messaggio originale -----
>> Da: "Neil C Smith" <ne...@apache.org>
>> A: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org, "netcat"
>> <ne...@netbeans.apache.org>
>> Inviato: Lunedì, 25 giugno 2018 10:35:59
>> Oggetto: Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
>>
>> On Sun, 24 Jun 2018 at 23:07, Wade Chandler <wa...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>> That said, it would be good to see the netcat members view on it.
>>> One can
>>> certainly contribute there without all the dev@ noise if they like
>>> it, so
>>> from their view, it may not be so simple. I really think that should
>>> have
>>> some weight.
>> Re-adding netcat@ (ironically! ;-) )
>>
>> I agree with you that the opinion of the netcat@ list is important.
>> If part of the point of NetCAT is to engage active / experienced users
>> in testing, then does bringing that conversation into dev@ discourage
>> that or not?
>>
>> It makes sense that everyone on dev@ is subscribed to netcat@, but
>> does the reverse also apply? Be interested in the input of anyone on
>> netcat@ who is not on the dev@ list, and the reasons behind that,
>> before any vote on this.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Neil
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Kai Uwe Pel <ka...@asia.com>.
Honestly, I fully with Luca's suggestions to have a separate list for
NetCat.
Best regards,
Kai
On 6/25/2018 1:46 PM, Luca Mambretti wrote:
> My personal opinion is that I would prefer NetCat to stay a separate list, mainly because of focus, it's true that using proper subjects helps but to me community acceptance, and development are separate things, and I do think feedback from the user community should be treated differently than feedback from the developer community.
>
> That said something from NetCat might be of interest to dev, but most probably not the other way around (at least that is my feeling on this), so maybe a good compromise would be to setup some sort of redirect so that NetCat emails would also be seen by developement and if something is deemed interesting by developement then by replying to the mail both lists would be involved.
>
> For voting purposes if NetCat has to be included in the voting process then the voting email might be sent also to the NetCat list, but that could also be handled using a proper acceptance survey like the ones that were previously used in the Oracle era, but that maybe is not really in line with Apache policies.
>
> Regards,
> Luca.
>
> ----- Messaggio originale -----
> Da: "Neil C Smith" <ne...@apache.org>
> A: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org, "netcat" <ne...@netbeans.apache.org>
> Inviato: Lunedì, 25 giugno 2018 10:35:59
> Oggetto: Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
>
> On Sun, 24 Jun 2018 at 23:07, Wade Chandler <wa...@apache.org> wrote:
>> That said, it would be good to see the netcat members view on it. One can
>> certainly contribute there without all the dev@ noise if they like it, so
>> from their view, it may not be so simple. I really think that should have
>> some weight.
> Re-adding netcat@ (ironically! ;-) )
>
> I agree with you that the opinion of the netcat@ list is important.
> If part of the point of NetCAT is to engage active / experienced users
> in testing, then does bringing that conversation into dev@ discourage
> that or not?
>
> It makes sense that everyone on dev@ is subscribed to netcat@, but
> does the reverse also apply? Be interested in the input of anyone on
> netcat@ who is not on the dev@ list, and the reasons behind that,
> before any vote on this.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
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>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Luca Mambretti <lu...@bizeta.net>.
My personal opinion is that I would prefer NetCat to stay a separate list, mainly because of focus, it's true that using proper subjects helps but to me community acceptance, and development are separate things, and I do think feedback from the user community should be treated differently than feedback from the developer community.
That said something from NetCat might be of interest to dev, but most probably not the other way around (at least that is my feeling on this), so maybe a good compromise would be to setup some sort of redirect so that NetCat emails would also be seen by developement and if something is deemed interesting by developement then by replying to the mail both lists would be involved.
For voting purposes if NetCat has to be included in the voting process then the voting email might be sent also to the NetCat list, but that could also be handled using a proper acceptance survey like the ones that were previously used in the Oracle era, but that maybe is not really in line with Apache policies.
Regards,
Luca.
----- Messaggio originale -----
Da: "Neil C Smith" <ne...@apache.org>
A: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org, "netcat" <ne...@netbeans.apache.org>
Inviato: Lunedì, 25 giugno 2018 10:35:59
Oggetto: Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
On Sun, 24 Jun 2018 at 23:07, Wade Chandler <wa...@apache.org> wrote:
> That said, it would be good to see the netcat members view on it. One can
> certainly contribute there without all the dev@ noise if they like it, so
> from their view, it may not be so simple. I really think that should have
> some weight.
Re-adding netcat@ (ironically! ;-) )
I agree with you that the opinion of the netcat@ list is important.
If part of the point of NetCAT is to engage active / experienced users
in testing, then does bringing that conversation into dev@ discourage
that or not?
It makes sense that everyone on dev@ is subscribed to netcat@, but
does the reverse also apply? Be interested in the input of anyone on
netcat@ who is not on the dev@ list, and the reasons behind that,
before any vote on this.
Best wishes,
Neil
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Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Luca Mambretti <lu...@bizeta.net>.
My personal opinion is that I would prefer NetCat to stay a separate list, mainly because of focus, it's true that using proper subjects helps but to me community acceptance, and development are separate things, and I do think feedback from the user community should be treated differently than feedback from the developer community.
That said something from NetCat might be of interest to dev, but most probably not the other way around (at least that is my feeling on this), so maybe a good compromise would be to setup some sort of redirect so that NetCat emails would also be seen by developement and if something is deemed interesting by developement then by replying to the mail both lists would be involved.
For voting purposes if NetCat has to be included in the voting process then the voting email might be sent also to the NetCat list, but that could also be handled using a proper acceptance survey like the ones that were previously used in the Oracle era, but that maybe is not really in line with Apache policies.
Regards,
Luca.
----- Messaggio originale -----
Da: "Neil C Smith" <ne...@apache.org>
A: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org, "netcat" <ne...@netbeans.apache.org>
Inviato: Lunedì, 25 giugno 2018 10:35:59
Oggetto: Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
On Sun, 24 Jun 2018 at 23:07, Wade Chandler <wa...@apache.org> wrote:
> That said, it would be good to see the netcat members view on it. One can
> certainly contribute there without all the dev@ noise if they like it, so
> from their view, it may not be so simple. I really think that should have
> some weight.
Re-adding netcat@ (ironically! ;-) )
I agree with you that the opinion of the netcat@ list is important.
If part of the point of NetCAT is to engage active / experienced users
in testing, then does bringing that conversation into dev@ discourage
that or not?
It makes sense that everyone on dev@ is subscribed to netcat@, but
does the reverse also apply? Be interested in the input of anyone on
netcat@ who is not on the dev@ list, and the reasons behind that,
before any vote on this.
Best wishes,
Neil
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Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Emilian Bold <em...@protonmail.ch.INVALID>.
> Either way, it does need to be clear any dev decisions or direction needs
> to go to dev@ as netcat is not the place for community votes.
NetCAT members have to become aware of and get involved in voting.
It's also harder, for example, suggesting a new committer from NetCAT if (s)he is only visible on netcat@.
> It makes sense that everyone on dev@ is subscribed to netcat@, but does the reverse also apply?
At least for voting, they should be. But even general development concerns might be of interest to netcat@ people and they could give their own feedback on it.
And their names must show up often enough we get to know each-other. It's easy to delete / archive an email thread you don't care about afterwards.
> Be interested in the input of anyone on
> netcat@ who is not on the dev@ list, and the reasons behind that,
> before any vote on this.
I'm also waiting on this.
--emi
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On 25 June 2018 11:35 AM, Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Jun 2018 at 23:07, Wade Chandler wadechandler@apache.org wrote:
>
> > That said, it would be good to see the netcat members view on it. One can
> >
> > certainly contribute there without all the dev@ noise if they like it, so
> >
> > from their view, it may not be so simple. I really think that should have
> >
> > some weight.
>
> Re-adding netcat@ (ironically! ;-) )
>
> I agree with you that the opinion of the netcat@ list is important.
>
> If part of the point of NetCAT is to engage active / experienced users
>
> in testing, then does bringing that conversation into dev@ discourage
>
> that or not?
>
> It makes sense that everyone on dev@ is subscribed to netcat@, but
>
> does the reverse also apply? Be interested in the input of anyone on
>
> netcat@ who is not on the dev@ list, and the reasons behind that,
>
> before any vote on this.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: netcat-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For additional commands, e-mail: netcat-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
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Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Emilian Bold <em...@protonmail.ch.INVALID>.
> Either way, it does need to be clear any dev decisions or direction needs
> to go to dev@ as netcat is not the place for community votes.
NetCAT members have to become aware of and get involved in voting.
It's also harder, for example, suggesting a new committer from NetCAT if (s)he is only visible on netcat@.
> It makes sense that everyone on dev@ is subscribed to netcat@, but does the reverse also apply?
At least for voting, they should be. But even general development concerns might be of interest to netcat@ people and they could give their own feedback on it.
And their names must show up often enough we get to know each-other. It's easy to delete / archive an email thread you don't care about afterwards.
> Be interested in the input of anyone on
> netcat@ who is not on the dev@ list, and the reasons behind that,
> before any vote on this.
I'm also waiting on this.
--emi
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On 25 June 2018 11:35 AM, Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Jun 2018 at 23:07, Wade Chandler wadechandler@apache.org wrote:
>
> > That said, it would be good to see the netcat members view on it. One can
> >
> > certainly contribute there without all the dev@ noise if they like it, so
> >
> > from their view, it may not be so simple. I really think that should have
> >
> > some weight.
>
> Re-adding netcat@ (ironically! ;-) )
>
> I agree with you that the opinion of the netcat@ list is important.
>
> If part of the point of NetCAT is to engage active / experienced users
>
> in testing, then does bringing that conversation into dev@ discourage
>
> that or not?
>
> It makes sense that everyone on dev@ is subscribed to netcat@, but
>
> does the reverse also apply? Be interested in the input of anyone on
>
> netcat@ who is not on the dev@ list, and the reasons behind that,
>
> before any vote on this.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: netcat-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For additional commands, e-mail: netcat-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
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Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Sun, 24 Jun 2018 at 23:07, Wade Chandler <wa...@apache.org> wrote:
> That said, it would be good to see the netcat members view on it. One can
> certainly contribute there without all the dev@ noise if they like it, so
> from their view, it may not be so simple. I really think that should have
> some weight.
Re-adding netcat@ (ironically! ;-) )
I agree with you that the opinion of the netcat@ list is important.
If part of the point of NetCAT is to engage active / experienced users
in testing, then does bringing that conversation into dev@ discourage
that or not?
It makes sense that everyone on dev@ is subscribed to netcat@, but
does the reverse also apply? Be interested in the input of anyone on
netcat@ who is not on the dev@ list, and the reasons behind that,
before any vote on this.
Best wishes,
Neil
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Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Sun, 24 Jun 2018 at 23:07, Wade Chandler <wa...@apache.org> wrote:
> That said, it would be good to see the netcat members view on it. One can
> certainly contribute there without all the dev@ noise if they like it, so
> from their view, it may not be so simple. I really think that should have
> some weight.
Re-adding netcat@ (ironically! ;-) )
I agree with you that the opinion of the netcat@ list is important.
If part of the point of NetCAT is to engage active / experienced users
in testing, then does bringing that conversation into dev@ discourage
that or not?
It makes sense that everyone on dev@ is subscribed to netcat@, but
does the reverse also apply? Be interested in the input of anyone on
netcat@ who is not on the dev@ list, and the reasons behind that,
before any vote on this.
Best wishes,
Neil
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Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Wade Chandler <wa...@apache.org>.
I think it would be good. We already have dev and user. The same reason we
decided to start with the 2 until we had any real need for more, versus all
the tech specific lists we had at NetBeans.org, seems reasonable, and to
apply here as well. If it is an issue, we'll know/see it, and if not, then
1 less place to look for info. So, +1 from my pov.
That said, it would be good to see the netcat members view on it. One can
certainly contribute there without all the dev@ noise if they like it, so
from their view, it may not be so simple. I really think that should have
some weight.
Either way, it does need to be clear any dev decisions or direction needs
to go to dev@ as netcat is not the place for community votes.
Wade
On Sun, Jun 24, 2018, 17:15 Emilian Bold <em...@protonmail.ch.invalid>
wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I believe all the Apache NetBeans contributors should use the dev@
> mailing list.
>
> The dev@ mailing list is our Apache 'central square' so to speak and even
> if we don't work on the same particular issue, we should get to know
> each-other, at least by name.
>
> The separate netcat@ mailing list is splitting the contributor community.
>
> I think initially netcat@ was created because it might have too much
> traffic. But looking at the archives I see dev@ has an average of 460
> emails per month while netcat@ is much more spiky and reached its maximum
> of 350 emails during March while now it's at 30-40 emails per month.
>
> Of course, emails are grouped into threads / topics so they are easier to
> follow or ignore. Thus, the load is not that much.
>
> Personally, I was surprised a while back how familiar Efrem Mc was on the
> dev@ mailing list and I just didn't know who he was. Turns out, he is
> much more active in NetCAT but I was not subscribed to netcat@ at that
> time.
>
> Enthusiasm is contagious and if people doing NetCAT care a lot about
> something it will spill into development interest too. And a development
> problem might invite some second look from quality acceptance.
>
> So my suggestion is to bring all NetCAT communication onto the dev@
> mailing list.
>
> I would like to hear your opinion and I hope that at the end we'll have a
> VOTE about this.
>
> PS: I'm crossposting this to both the dev@ and the netcat@ mailing list.
>
> --emi
>
>
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>
>
>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Glenn Holmer <ce...@kolabnow.com.INVALID>.
On 06/24/2018 04:15 PM, Emilian Bold wrote:
> my suggestion is to bring all NetCAT communication onto the dev@
> mailing list.
Probably a good idea. I think separate lists made more sense when the
developers were Sun/Oracle and the testers were community volunteers:
we're all community volunteers now. Also, NetCAT has become much more
active in creating the test specs, but that really needs developer input
(how can non-dev testers know how something is meant to work?). And it
would give immediate dev visibility to questions about bugs as well as
giving insight into bug fixes to the testing community (which could
encourage learning the NetBeans code). Perhaps most importantly, it
would contribute to an overall understanding of the Apache Way of doing
things.
--
Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682)
"After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe."
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Re: [DISCUSS] Merging back netcat@ into the dev@ mailing list
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 11:15 PM Emilian Bold
<em...@protonmail.ch.invalid> wrote:
> ...The dev@ mailing list is our Apache 'central square' so to speak and even
> if we don't work on the same particular issue, we should get to know
> each-other, at least by name....
My recommendation as an incubation mentor is indeed to bring netcat
traffic on the dev list, in the spirit of having a single community -
systematically using a [netcat] subject line header for (visual or
machine) filtering.
Actually, given the many modules that make up NetBeans, it might be a
good idea to use [subject line tags] more extensively to help focus
conversations. The OpenStack dev list is a great example of that [1].
-Bertrand
[1] http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-June/thread.html
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