Re: Sun saids Opensource is bad - Flame

["Jakarta General Newsgroup (@Basebeans.com)" <ja...@basebeans.com>]

Subject: Re: Sun saids Opensource is bad - Flame
From: "Vic C." <vi...@users.sourceforge.net>
 ===
Point #1. Dot Net is better than J2EE the way Sun sells J2EE (read the 
next point)
J2EE is sold as must have EJB for DAO.
As a software engineer, we are to pick best:
Simpler
Cheaper
Faster
Easier to develop
Easier to deploy
More flexible (any sql statement (self join, correlated, outer) and 
multi row support)

Only non software engineers strive for complex and expensive and hence slow.

EJB is very expensive ($15K per license and up)  and has bad phone 
support by vendors.
Sun is at $4 now and it will go out of business the way Digital has 
because it does not know how to sell software as good as MS (and it HW 
is expensive and according to tpc.org slower than cheap Intel machines).

Companies that did try to deploy EJB in production or maintain it get 
disgusted. Then comes a 3rd party solution vendor and says.... If you use 
the cheaper IIS and cheaper SQL ADO, you will develop faster and save 
money, here let me show you.

It would be prefers for a manager to chose something slower and more 
expensive.

Any version of EJB fairly quickly leads a customer to use .NET and 
webForm and ADO on their next project!
I have lost many clients to .NET and I am flaming. Objectively, .NET is 
better and cheaper if you look at it from a software engineering point 
of view.
Also C# and byte code is ECMA open standard.

EJB is .NET's best sales tool for converting clients over. Sun plays 
this in by saying one should use EJB with J2EE. OpenEJB is just as BAD.
(see www.basebeans.com/bad.jsp for more on EJB)

Lastly, it would be easy to write MVC in C#

Point #2. Open source, like Jakrta (Tomcat, Struts, Standard Tags, etc) 
and SourceForge (basicPortal, Jasper, etc) and others (OpenOffice.org, 
PostgreSQL.org, Linuxes, Eclipse IDE) are better and cheaper and faster 
than dot Net.

This to me means J2EE is great, most of it (Except EJB).

Tomcat can handle a large load for free, PostgreSQL is very fast under 
very largeDB and is free, Struts is a great framework etc.
And each open source has great support for FREE.

Semi-free is Resin and dbExperts and they have good support.
My experience is J2EE bad. .Net Good.
Open Source BEST.

We are trying to add value and save companies money 2 ways. Finding a 
way for them to use IT to save money and make money. And do that the 
fastest and cheapest way.

If Sun deprecates EJB and standardizes on a DAO interfaces (that could 
use RowSet or JDO or any other implementation internally  - sample DAO 
interfaces is at CVS of basicportal.sourceforge.net ) that would go a 
long way.
Sun might keep giving away the JRE but charge some $ for SDK.
Sun should stop selling HW or sell that to IBM.
Sun should do more Linux, as it just announced (and get rid of SlowLaris).

This sounds like a sales pitch but it's not since it is open source.
I tried to implement (and not just say) good practices in web app 
development to save money in basicPortal (MVC struts, standard tags, 
fast db access, DAO, event driven, easy).

I mean.... How hard is it to write "Hello world" using Pet Cemetery?  Vs 
WebForms in ASP?
BasicPortal shows you how to do this better than .Net or PetStore.
(Also, JavaServer Faces ... if it does not make Struts the reference 
implementation will make a big mistake).

Currently Sun makes money on J2EE licensing to BEA, etc. (BEA are losing 
market share to IBM.)

Conclusion:
Open Source is best.
Sun will go out of business as all of its revenue streams dry up and 
because it does not know how to sell software, it competes with its 3rd 
party vendors (MS forbids competition with it's resellers and consults).

A good open source vendor is IBM which endorses Linux on Mainframes and 
elsewhere and it is able to sell Java.
It will be MS(+Dell) vs IBM in the end.

Recommendation:
Please use more standard open source to save your company money and 
demonstrate it.
Wasting company money on bad J2EE (EJB)

Better than webForms is basicPortal and I will continue to improve it.

I really wish best for Java, and best for it is open source.

My 2 c.
Vic














Ceki G�lc� wrote:
> Scott McNealy is trying to shift the blame for Sun's recent
> difficulties. It's not me, it's those ruthless open-source people that
> are preventing the industry from making money.  While the reader in
> this forum might find this claim outrageous, it is likely to sound
> plausible to CEOs and other top management.
> 
> Let us not forget that behind many open-source contributions lie
> corporate dollars. With shrinking flow of resources from "benevolent"
> corporations, expect output of open-source projects to slow down in
> pace.
> 
> Having said that, if the open-source movement begins to massively
> embrace products from Microsoft, then there is something very wrong in
> the world we live in.  Of course, we massively embraced Java, which
> goes to prove my last statement. :-)
> 
> Here is a very interesting article on open-source "economy".
> http://www.benkler.org/CoasesPenguin.PDF
> 
> Don't be put off by the first few pages (I feel asleep).
> 
> At 10:03 03.08.2002 +1000, Peter Donald wrote:
> 
>> http://www.oetrends.com/cgi-bin/page_display.cgi?77
>>
>> And that is why I am glad that jakarta is starting to get .Net 
>> technologies on
>> board.
>>
>> -- 
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Peter Donald
> 
> 
> -- 
> Ceki
> 
> 
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Re: Sun saids Opensource is bad - Flame

["Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>]

Jon Scott Stevens wrote:

>on 8/6/02 4:52 AM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Personally I'd like to see a version of Struts for C#/ASP.NET/etc.  It
>>seems to me that since JSP was just a rip
>>off of ASP and ASP.NET is more or less a backport of features from JSP,
>>it seems to me that the next logical
>>step is a port of Struts to C#/ASP.NET.  It would be kind of cool to be
>>able to be able to switch back and forth
>>with minimal effort.  ;-)
>>    
>>
>
>Woah. Full circle.
>  
>
yeah man ;-)

>-jon
>
>
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Re: Sun saids Opensource is bad - Flame

[Jon Scott Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>]

on 8/6/02 4:52 AM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> wrote:

> Personally I'd like to see a version of Struts for C#/ASP.NET/etc.  It
> seems to me that since JSP was just a rip
> off of ASP and ASP.NET is more or less a backport of features from JSP,
> it seems to me that the next logical
> step is a port of Struts to C#/ASP.NET.  It would be kind of cool to be
> able to be able to switch back and forth
> with minimal effort.  ;-)

Woah. Full circle.

-jon


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Re: Sun saids Opensource is bad - Flame

["Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>]

Personally I'd like to see a version of Struts for C#/ASP.NET/etc.  It 
seems to me that since JSP was just a rip
off of ASP and ASP.NET is more or less a backport of features from JSP, 
it seems to me that the next logical
step is a port of Struts to C#/ASP.NET.  It would be kind of cool to be 
able to be able to switch back and forth
with minimal effort.  ;-)

Only trouble is we'd have to port Code Red/Code Red II to tomcat too for 
compatibility testing...  ;-)

-Andy



Jeff Schnitzer wrote:

>>From: "Vic C." <vi...@users.sourceforge.net>
>>
>>Lastly, it would be easy to write MVC in C#
>>    
>>
>
>http://sourceforge.net/projects/mavnet
>
>Already done :-)
>
>Jeff Schnitzer
>jeff@infohazard.org
>
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>  
>




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Re: Sun saids Opensource is bad - Flame

[Jeff Schnitzer <je...@infohazard.org>]

> From: "Vic C." <vi...@users.sourceforge.net>
> 
> Lastly, it would be easy to write MVC in C#

http://sourceforge.net/projects/mavnet

Already done :-)

Jeff Schnitzer
jeff@infohazard.org

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