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Posted to user@vcl.apache.org by Alexander Patterson <al...@csueastbay.edu> on 2012/03/07 19:12:52 UTC
VCL software licensing
Hello,
I wanted to know how are people dealing with software licensing for VCL?
Does anyone have a document or information on how they are dealing with the
different vendors when it comes to VCL.
For example with Microsoft you are using 1 license for each virtual machine
you spin up in a Windows environment.
Do you have one per user base? Is this for concurrent users?
Are you able to split up lab licensing for in house software to be used in
the VCL? Do the companies know you are doing this?
Does anyone have an agreement with any vendors that goes within the current
VCL licensing that they are using?
If someone has like an overview or general information on how you
are licensing the VCL for educational use; that would be very helpful.
We are starting to run into licensing walls and I would love some inside
information from someone who has gone through this.
--
Thanks,
Alex Patterson
User Support Services
Operating System Analyst
California State University, East Bay
RE: VCL software licensing
Posted by Alexander Kurt Keller <al...@sfsu.edu>.
Hi Alex & VCL folks,
I suspect that some folks may prefer to share detailed information off list due to concerns about publically documenting their compliance approach.
We have been grappling with OS and application licenses with regard to our Remote Desktop Services (Terminal Services) pilot (we are not using Apache VCL in production). While there are some differences between RDS and VDI licensing, the challenges are similar.
Our experience has been that software vendors fall into a few basic camps with regard to virtual licensing:
· Those vendors who don’t have a virtual licensing mechanism and need to be educated about the use case in order to work out an agreement/understanding.
· Those vendors who understand the virtual use case and may have documented licensing stipulations.
· Those vendors who have robust licensing policies and mechanisms (network license managers, multiple license types, etc).
On the Microsoft OS side, it took a sit down meeting with our MS Sales Engineer to understand their licensing schema for VDI and RDS. In a nutshell this is what we walked away with:
* Staff or faculty member running a Windows OS on a University computer connecting to a VDI based Windows VM = Covered under campus agreement, no additional cost
* Staff or faculty member running a NON-Windows OS (MacOSX, Linux, Thin OS) on a University computer connecting to a VDI based Windows VM = Covered under campus agreement, no additional cost
* Student on a University computer (Windows, MacOSX, Linux, Thin OS) connecting to a VDI based Windows VM = Special agreement needed: roughly $5/student over FTE population or "fenced" population (as negotiated by campus and Microsoft).
* Staff or faculty member on a University computer (Windows, MacOSX, Linux, Thin OS) connecting to a RDS session = Per User or Per Computer CAL required
* Student on a University computer (Windows, MacOSX, Linux, Thin OS) connecting to a RDS session = External Connector License (per RDS server)
* Student on a home computer (Windows, MacOSX, Linux, Thin OS) connecting to a RDS session = External Connector License (per RDS server)
After looking at a number of License Management applications, we settled on Sassafras K2 (http://www.sassafras.com) based upon the cross platform capabilities (we envision it being used beyond our RDS offering) and resounding recommendations from a lengthy list of other universities. We are early in our implementation, but I can attest that it is a very capable and mature product.
Best,
alex
Alex Keller
Systems Administrator
Academic Technology, San Francisco State University
☛Burk Hall 155 ☎ (415)338-6117 ✉alkeller@sfsu.edu<ma...@sfsu.edu>
From: Alexander Patterson [mailto:alexander.patterson@csueastbay.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 10:13 AM
To: vcl-user@incubator.apache.org
Subject: VCL software licensing
Hello,
I wanted to know how are people dealing with software licensing for VCL? Does anyone have a document or information on how they are dealing with the different vendors when it comes to VCL.
For example with Microsoft you are using 1 license for each virtual machine you spin up in a Windows environment.
Do you have one per user base? Is this for concurrent users?
Are you able to split up lab licensing for in house software to be used in the VCL? Do the companies know you are doing this?
Does anyone have an agreement with any vendors that goes within the current VCL licensing that they are using?
If someone has like an overview or general information on how you are licensing the VCL for educational use; that would be very helpful.
We are starting to run into licensing walls and I would love some inside information from someone who has gone through this.
--
Thanks,
Alex Patterson
User Support Services
Operating System Analyst
California State University, East Bay
Re: VCL software licensing
Posted by Aaron Peeler <aa...@ncsu.edu>.
I'm forwarding this for Dr. Henry Schaffer - for some reason his
emails were bouncing back.
>From Henry:
A group of us did a presentation on licensing at Educause 2011. Here
is the "slide deck."
http://www.ncsu.edu/it/open_source/cloud-license-educause2011.html
We also have an Educause group on Software Licensing which has a
mailing list and has a conference call every other week. I'm not sure
how to join the group - but Sharon Pitt spitt@gmu.edu knows.
Henry
Also I agree with Adam, definitely need to work with your MS rep not
only to understand but also to negotiate a suitable pricing model for
the OS and VDA licensing. I think there are some options in regards to
VDA such as software assurance for the campus users, etc, but again
would need to talk with your rep.
Aaron
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:18 PM, Hechler, Adam <he...@rpi.edu> wrote:
> I had done some research with Microsoft when we were first looking into
> starting our VCL.
>
>
>
> In order to access the virtual machines you have to have a VDA license
> (Virtual Desktop Access) as well as the Windows license. As you said, the
> Windows license is covered under the Campus License Agreement but the VDA
> license usually isn’t. If you are using something other than Microsoft’s
> VDI for virtualization you also need RDS CAL (Remote Desktop Services Client
> Access Licenses).
>
>
>
> The VDA licenses were about $13 per student and the RDS CAL were about $11
> if purchased separately, or the RDS CAL could be added to a campus license
> agreement at about $5.00 per (our situation was that our Campus License
> Agreement covered all students for the whole Institute but we’re only
> looking at having the VCL at a remote campus which is why I had looked at
> both options). The RDS CAL was also available as a perpetual license for
> about $19 (valid only for that version of server currently in use – new
> licenses would have to be purchased when back end servers were upgraded to a
> new OS version).
>
>
>
> For approximately 500 students I think the Microsoft Licensing would cost
> approximately $16K per year.
>
>
>
> This is a huge issue and it was even worse before 2010 July 1 when M$
> switched to the VDA license. Things might have changed as virtualized
> environments have continued to become more prevalent. But I would certainly
> check with the Microsoft rep for sure.
>
>
>
>
>
> Adam Hechler
>
> Senior Analyst /
>
> PC Systems Administrator
>
> hechla@rpi.edu
>
> (860) 548-2446
>
> Rensselaer at Hartford
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Alexander Patterson [mailto:alexander.patterson@csueastbay.edu]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 2:01 PM
> To: vcl-user@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: VCL software licensing
>
>
>
> Hello Michael,
>
>
>
> We have %100 of the same model that you are using, we are working on getting
> everything into complacency and we are running into big walls starting with
> Microsoft for copies of the OS that is running on the VCL.
>
>
>
> Have you talked with Microsoft and do they know you are using the VCL to
> install virtual instances of the Microsoft product into a Virtual
> machine environment? We are in talks with Microsoft and they want to charge
> us X more for doing this, it could lead to the end of our pilot. We have the
> same campus license that you have and just wanted more insight if anyone has
> worked closer to the vendors to work on a VCL licensing for software
>
>
>
> -Alex
>
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Waldron, Michael H <mw...@email.unc.edu>
> wrote:
>
> Alex
>
> In our case, we really haven't had to do anything special in regards to
> licensing.
>
> For Microsoft products, we have a campus license which allows us to install
> on any University-owned systems using the campus site key.
>
> For many applications we have network license servers, so the VCL images
> with that software point to the license servers to get licenses.
>
> For all other licenses we have, the license is for a specific number of
> seats, not specific computers, so we just set the maximum concurrent usage
> setting on the image to the number of licenses there are for the
> application.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> Mike Waldron
> Systems Specialist
> ITS Research Computing
> University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
> CB #3420, ITS Manning, Rm 2509
> 919-962-9778
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Alexander Patterson [alexander.patterson@csueastbay.edu]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 1:12 PM
> To: vcl-user@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: VCL software licensing
>
> Hello,
>
>
>
> I wanted to know how are people dealing with software licensing for VCL?
> Does anyone have a document or information on how they are dealing with the
> different vendors when it comes to VCL.
>
>
>
> For example with Microsoft you are using 1 license for each virtual machine
> you spin up in a Windows environment.
>
> Do you have one per user base? Is this for concurrent users?
>
> Are you able to split up lab licensing for in house software to be used in
> the VCL? Do the companies know you are doing this?
>
> Does anyone have an agreement with any vendors that goes within the current
> VCL licensing that they are using?
>
>
>
> If someone has like an overview or general information on how you
> are licensing the VCL for educational use; that would be very helpful.
>
>
>
> We are starting to run into licensing walls and I would love some inside
> information from someone who has gone through this.
>
>
>
> --
> Thanks,
> Alex Patterson
> User Support Services
> Operating System Analyst
> California State University, East Bay
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Thanks,
> Alex Patterson
> User Support Services
> Operating System Analyst
> California State University, East Bay
--
Aaron Peeler
Program Manager
Virtual Computing Lab
NC State University
All electronic mail messages in connection with State business which
are sent to or received by this account are subject to the NC Public
Records Law and may be disclosed to third parties.
RE: VCL software licensing
Posted by "Hechler, Adam" <he...@rpi.edu>.
I had done some research with Microsoft when we were first looking into starting our VCL.
In order to access the virtual machines you have to have a VDA license (Virtual Desktop Access) as well as the Windows license. As you said, the Windows license is covered under the Campus License Agreement but the VDA license usually isn't. If you are using something other than Microsoft's VDI for virtualization you also need RDS CAL (Remote Desktop Services Client Access Licenses).
The VDA licenses were about $13 per student and the RDS CAL were about $11 if purchased separately, or the RDS CAL could be added to a campus license agreement at about $5.00 per (our situation was that our Campus License Agreement covered all students for the whole Institute but we're only looking at having the VCL at a remote campus which is why I had looked at both options). The RDS CAL was also available as a perpetual license for about $19 (valid only for that version of server currently in use - new licenses would have to be purchased when back end servers were upgraded to a new OS version).
For approximately 500 students I think the Microsoft Licensing would cost approximately $16K per year.
This is a huge issue and it was even worse before 2010 July 1 when M$ switched to the VDA license. Things might have changed as virtualized environments have continued to become more prevalent. But I would certainly check with the Microsoft rep for sure.
Adam Hechler
Senior Analyst /
PC Systems Administrator
hechla@rpi.edu<ma...@rpi.edu>
(860) 548-2446
Rensselaer at Hartford
From: Alexander Patterson [mailto:alexander.patterson@csueastbay.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 2:01 PM
To: vcl-user@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: VCL software licensing
Hello Michael,
We have %100 of the same model that you are using, we are working on getting everything into complacency and we are running into big walls starting with Microsoft for copies of the OS that is running on the VCL.
Have you talked with Microsoft and do they know you are using the VCL to install virtual instances of the Microsoft product into a Virtual machine environment? We are in talks with Microsoft and they want to charge us X more for doing this, it could lead to the end of our pilot. We have the same campus license that you have and just wanted more insight if anyone has worked closer to the vendors to work on a VCL licensing for software
-Alex
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Waldron, Michael H <mw...@email.unc.edu>> wrote:
Alex
In our case, we really haven't had to do anything special in regards to licensing.
For Microsoft products, we have a campus license which allows us to install on any University-owned systems using the campus site key.
For many applications we have network license servers, so the VCL images with that software point to the license servers to get licenses.
For all other licenses we have, the license is for a specific number of seats, not specific computers, so we just set the maximum concurrent usage setting on the image to the number of licenses there are for the application.
Mike
Mike Waldron
Systems Specialist
ITS Research Computing
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
CB #3420, ITS Manning, Rm 2509
919-962-9778<tel:919-962-9778>
________________________________
From: Alexander Patterson [alexander.patterson@csueastbay.edu<ma...@csueastbay.edu>]
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 1:12 PM
To: vcl-user@incubator.apache.org<ma...@incubator.apache.org>
Subject: VCL software licensing
Hello,
I wanted to know how are people dealing with software licensing for VCL? Does anyone have a document or information on how they are dealing with the different vendors when it comes to VCL.
For example with Microsoft you are using 1 license for each virtual machine you spin up in a Windows environment.
Do you have one per user base? Is this for concurrent users?
Are you able to split up lab licensing for in house software to be used in the VCL? Do the companies know you are doing this?
Does anyone have an agreement with any vendors that goes within the current VCL licensing that they are using?
If someone has like an overview or general information on how you are licensing the VCL for educational use; that would be very helpful.
We are starting to run into licensing walls and I would love some inside information from someone who has gone through this.
--
Thanks,
Alex Patterson
User Support Services
Operating System Analyst
California State University, East Bay
--
Thanks,
Alex Patterson
User Support Services
Operating System Analyst
California State University, East Bay
Re: VCL software licensing
Posted by Henry Schaffer <he...@ncsu.edu>.
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 3:18 PM, Andy Kurth <an...@ncsu.edu> wrote:
> Just FYI, the same issues apply to VMware View, Citrix XenDesktop, etc.
> -Andy
>...
Andy is right -
"I'm buying VDI software from VMware/Citrix/other vendor. Do I still
need Windows VDA?
Yes, you do. If you are accessing a Windows client operating system
(OS) as your guest OS in the datacenter from a thin client, Windows
VDA is the appropriate licensing vehicle. You need this regardless of
the VDI software vendor you choose. The only scenario where you would
not need Windows VDA is if you were using PCs covered under Software
Assurance as the access devices, since virtual desktop access rights
are included as a benefit of SA."
(quoted from http://download.microsoft.com/download/5/0/5/5059CBF7-F736-4D1E-BF90-C28DADA181C5/Microsoft%20VDI%20and%20Windows%20VDA%20FAQ%20v2%200.pdf
)
--henry
Re: VCL software licensing
Posted by Andy Kurth <an...@ncsu.edu>.
Just FYI, the same issues apply to VMware View, Citrix XenDesktop, etc.
-Andy
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:01 PM, Alexander Patterson
<al...@csueastbay.edu> wrote:
> Hello Michael,
>
> We have %100 of the same model that you are using, we are working on getting
> everything into complacency and we are running into big walls starting with
> Microsoft for copies of the OS that is running on the VCL.
>
> Have you talked with Microsoft and do they know you are using the VCL to
> install virtual instances of the Microsoft product into a Virtual
> machine environment? We are in talks with Microsoft and they want to charge
> us X more for doing this, it could lead to the end of our pilot. We have the
> same campus license that you have and just wanted more insight if anyone has
> worked closer to the vendors to work on a VCL licensing for software
>
> -Alex
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Waldron, Michael H <mw...@email.unc.edu>
> wrote:
>>
>> Alex
>>
>> In our case, we really haven't had to do anything special in regards to
>> licensing.
>>
>> For Microsoft products, we have a campus license which allows us to
>> install on any University-owned systems using the campus site key.
>>
>> For many applications we have network license servers, so the VCL images
>> with that software point to the license servers to get licenses.
>>
>> For all other licenses we have, the license is for a specific number of
>> seats, not specific computers, so we just set the maximum concurrent usage
>> setting on the image to the number of licenses there are for the
>> application.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> Mike Waldron
>> Systems Specialist
>> ITS Research Computing
>> University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
>> CB #3420, ITS Manning, Rm 2509
>> 919-962-9778
>> ________________________________
>> From: Alexander Patterson [alexander.patterson@csueastbay.edu]
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 1:12 PM
>> To: vcl-user@incubator.apache.org
>> Subject: VCL software licensing
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I wanted to know how are people dealing with software licensing for VCL?
>> Does anyone have a document or information on how they are dealing with the
>> different vendors when it comes to VCL.
>>
>> For example with Microsoft you are using 1 license for each virtual
>> machine you spin up in a Windows environment.
>> Do you have one per user base? Is this for concurrent users?
>> Are you able to split up lab licensing for in house software to be used in
>> the VCL? Do the companies know you are doing this?
>> Does anyone have an agreement with any vendors that goes within the
>> current VCL licensing that they are using?
>>
>> If someone has like an overview or general information on how you
>> are licensing the VCL for educational use; that would be very helpful.
>>
>> We are starting to run into licensing walls and I would love some inside
>> information from someone who has gone through this.
>>
>> --
>> Thanks,
>> Alex Patterson
>> User Support Services
>> Operating System Analyst
>> California State University, East Bay
>
>
>
>
> --
> Thanks,
> Alex Patterson
> User Support Services
> Operating System Analyst
> California State University, East Bay
RE: VCL software licensing
Posted by "Waldron, Michael H" <mw...@email.unc.edu>.
Alex
Another group within the University handles software acquisitions and they are the ones that deal with Microsoft on such issues. We have the blessing of this group to use the software as we are on the VCL, so from my standpoint we are covered.
Mike
Mike Waldron
Systems Specialist
ITS Research Computing
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
CB #3420, ITS Manning, Rm 2509
919-962-9778
________________________________
From: Alexander Patterson [alexander.patterson@csueastbay.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 2:01 PM
To: vcl-user@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: VCL software licensing
Hello Michael,
We have %100 of the same model that you are using, we are working on getting everything into complacency and we are running into big walls starting with Microsoft for copies of the OS that is running on the VCL.
Have you talked with Microsoft and do they know you are using the VCL to install virtual instances of the Microsoft product into a Virtual machine environment? We are in talks with Microsoft and they want to charge us X more for doing this, it could lead to the end of our pilot. We have the same campus license that you have and just wanted more insight if anyone has worked closer to the vendors to work on a VCL licensing for software
-Alex
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Waldron, Michael H <mw...@email.unc.edu>> wrote:
Alex
In our case, we really haven't had to do anything special in regards to licensing.
For Microsoft products, we have a campus license which allows us to install on any University-owned systems using the campus site key.
For many applications we have network license servers, so the VCL images with that software point to the license servers to get licenses.
For all other licenses we have, the license is for a specific number of seats, not specific computers, so we just set the maximum concurrent usage setting on the image to the number of licenses there are for the application.
Mike
Mike Waldron
Systems Specialist
ITS Research Computing
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
CB #3420, ITS Manning, Rm 2509
919-962-9778<tel:919-962-9778>
________________________________
From: Alexander Patterson [alexander.patterson@csueastbay.edu<ma...@csueastbay.edu>]
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 1:12 PM
To: vcl-user@incubator.apache.org<ma...@incubator.apache.org>
Subject: VCL software licensing
Hello,
I wanted to know how are people dealing with software licensing for VCL? Does anyone have a document or information on how they are dealing with the different vendors when it comes to VCL.
For example with Microsoft you are using 1 license for each virtual machine you spin up in a Windows environment.
Do you have one per user base? Is this for concurrent users?
Are you able to split up lab licensing for in house software to be used in the VCL? Do the companies know you are doing this?
Does anyone have an agreement with any vendors that goes within the current VCL licensing that they are using?
If someone has like an overview or general information on how you are licensing the VCL for educational use; that would be very helpful.
We are starting to run into licensing walls and I would love some inside information from someone who has gone through this.
--
Thanks,
Alex Patterson
User Support Services
Operating System Analyst
California State University, East Bay
--
Thanks,
Alex Patterson
User Support Services
Operating System Analyst
California State University, East Bay
Re: VCL software licensing
Posted by Alexander Patterson <al...@csueastbay.edu>.
Hello Michael,
We have %100 of the same model that you are using, we are working on
getting everything into complacency and we are running into big walls
starting with Microsoft for copies of the OS that is running on the VCL.
Have you talked with Microsoft and do they know you are using the VCL to
install virtual instances of the Microsoft product into a Virtual
machine environment? We are in talks with Microsoft and they want to charge
us X more for doing this, it could lead to the end of our pilot. We have
the same campus license that you have and just wanted more insight if
anyone has worked closer to the vendors to work on a VCL licensing for
software
-Alex
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Waldron, Michael H
<mw...@email.unc.edu>wrote:
> Alex
>
> In our case, we really haven't had to do anything special in regards to
> licensing.
>
> For Microsoft products, we have a campus license which allows us to
> install on any University-owned systems using the campus site key.
>
> For many applications we have network license servers, so the VCL images
> with that software point to the license servers to get licenses.
>
> For all other licenses we have, the license is for a specific number of
> seats, not specific computers, so we just set the maximum concurrent usage
> setting on the image to the number of licenses there are for the
> application.
>
> Mike
>
> Mike Waldron
> Systems Specialist
> ITS Research Computing
> University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
> CB #3420, ITS Manning, Rm 2509
> 919-962-9778
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Alexander Patterson [alexander.patterson@csueastbay.edu]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 07, 2012 1:12 PM
> *To:* vcl-user@incubator.apache.org
> *Subject:* VCL software licensing
>
> Hello,
>
> I wanted to know how are people dealing with software licensing for VCL?
> Does anyone have a document or information on how they are dealing with the
> different vendors when it comes to VCL.
>
> For example with Microsoft you are using 1 license for each virtual
> machine you spin up in a Windows environment.
> Do you have one per user base? Is this for concurrent users?
> Are you able to split up lab licensing for in house software to be used in
> the VCL? Do the companies know you are doing this?
> Does anyone have an agreement with any vendors that goes within the
> current VCL licensing that they are using?
>
> If someone has like an overview or general information on how you
> are licensing the VCL for educational use; that would be very helpful.
>
> We are starting to run into licensing walls and I would love some inside
> information from someone who has gone through this.
>
> --
> Thanks,
> Alex Patterson
> User Support Services
> Operating System Analyst
> California State University, East Bay
>
--
Thanks,
Alex Patterson
User Support Services
Operating System Analyst
California State University, East Bay
RE: VCL software licensing
Posted by "Waldron, Michael H" <mw...@email.unc.edu>.
Alex
In our case, we really haven't had to do anything special in regards to licensing.
For Microsoft products, we have a campus license which allows us to install on any University-owned systems using the campus site key.
For many applications we have network license servers, so the VCL images with that software point to the license servers to get licenses.
For all other licenses we have, the license is for a specific number of seats, not specific computers, so we just set the maximum concurrent usage setting on the image to the number of licenses there are for the application.
Mike
Mike Waldron
Systems Specialist
ITS Research Computing
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
CB #3420, ITS Manning, Rm 2509
919-962-9778
________________________________
From: Alexander Patterson [alexander.patterson@csueastbay.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 1:12 PM
To: vcl-user@incubator.apache.org
Subject: VCL software licensing
Hello,
I wanted to know how are people dealing with software licensing for VCL? Does anyone have a document or information on how they are dealing with the different vendors when it comes to VCL.
For example with Microsoft you are using 1 license for each virtual machine you spin up in a Windows environment.
Do you have one per user base? Is this for concurrent users?
Are you able to split up lab licensing for in house software to be used in the VCL? Do the companies know you are doing this?
Does anyone have an agreement with any vendors that goes within the current VCL licensing that they are using?
If someone has like an overview or general information on how you are licensing the VCL for educational use; that would be very helpful.
We are starting to run into licensing walls and I would love some inside information from someone who has gone through this.
--
Thanks,
Alex Patterson
User Support Services
Operating System Analyst
California State University, East Bay