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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Sharan Foga <sh...@apache.org> on 2019/03/31 11:28:38 UTC
List of Projects that went straight to Top Level Projects
Hi All
Does anyone know if there is a list of projects that bypassed incubation? For example - I know a couple of projects Royale and Kibble that went straight to TLP. Is there a list anywhere for all projects like this?
Thanks
Sharan
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Re: List of Projects that went straight to Top Level Projects
Posted by Sharan Foga <sh...@apache.org>.
Wow - thanks everyone for the feedback. And Sam this is great.
Thanks
Sharan
On 2019/04/01 00:08:47, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
> In March, I wrote a script to find establishment resolutions, and to
> scan those resolutions for the word 'incubator':
>
> https://whimsy.apache.org/incubator/graduated#summary
>
> As always, the data is a bit dirty. There are a number of projects
> that were created before we had establish resolutions, and some
> projects like comdev -- while technically "bypassing" the incubator --
> are not the types of projects you are looking for.
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
> On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 7:28 AM Sharan Foga <sh...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hi All
> >
> > Does anyone know if there is a list of projects that bypassed incubation? For example - I know a couple of projects Royale and Kibble that went straight to TLP. Is there a list anywhere for all projects like this?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Sharan
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
>
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Re: List of Projects that went straight to Top Level Projects
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 9:53 PM Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Sam,
>
> That’s a cool table. Does your code look at the resolution tag? Doe we possibly have some errors in podlings.xml?
No, I don't currently look at the resolution tag, but that should be
easy enough to add. That should take care of 3 of the 4 differences
you found. I'll take a look at that tomorrow. Meanwhile:
> (2) For Beehive, you don’t show it has graduated, but we have:
>
> <podling name="Beehive" status="graduated" resource="beehive" sponsor="Incubator" startdate="2004-05-21" enddate="2005-07-18">
> <description>Extensible Java application framework with an integrated metadata-driven programming model for web services, web applications, and resource access</description>
> <resolution tlp="true”/>
The column names may be confusing. In that row, there is the work
graduated which reflects data from podlings.xml. The previous column
is blank indicating that no Establish resolution was found in the
following data:
https://whimsy.apache.org/board/minutes/Beehive.html
The next column says 'false' indicating that the word 'incubator' was
not found in the establish resolution, which makes sense as no
establish resolution was found.
- Sam Ruby
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Re: List of Projects that went straight to Top Level Projects
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
Hi Sam,
That’s a cool table. Does your code look at the resolution tag? Doe we possibly have some errors in podlings.xml?
(1) BVal incubated as BeanValidation and here is a snippet from podlings.xml:
<podling name="Bean Validation" status="graduated" resource="beanvalidation" resourceAliases="bval" sponsor="Incubator" startdate="2010-03-01" enddate="2012-02-15">
<description>The Bean Validation project will create an implementation of Bean Validation as defined by the Java EE specifications.</description>
<resolution link="BVal" url="https://bval.apache.org/">Graduated as Apache BVal</resolution>
(2) For Beehive, you don’t show it has graduated, but we have:
<podling name="Beehive" status="graduated" resource="beehive" sponsor="Incubator" startdate="2004-05-21" enddate="2005-07-18">
<description>Extensible Java application framework with an integrated metadata-driven programming model for web services, web applications, and resource access</description>
<resolution tlp="true”/>
(3) Oltu incubated as Amber:
<podling name="Amber" status="graduated" resource="amber" resourceAliases="oltu" sponsor="Shindig" startdate="2010-05-09" enddate="2013-01-16">
<description>
The Amber project will deliver a Java development framework mainly aimed to build OAuth-aware applications.
Amber graduated with the name Apache Oltu
</description>
<resolution link="Oltu" url="http://oltu.apache.org"/>
(4) OpenOffice incubated as OpenOffice.org
<podling name="OpenOffice.org" status="graduated" resource="openofficeorg" resourceAliases="ooo" sponsor="Incubator" startdate="2011-06-13" enddate="2012-10-17">
<description>OpenOffice.org is comprised of six personal productivity applications: a word processor (and its web-authoring component), spreadsheet, presentation graphics, drawi\
ng, equation editor, and database.</description>
<resolution link="OpenOffice" url="https://openoffice.apache.org/"/>
HTH,
Dave
> On Mar 31, 2019, at 6:01 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>
> I've gone ahead and added information from podlings.xml to this data.
> We have a number of entries which are in podlings.xml but don't
> contain incubator in their establishment resolution (Tika, Tapestry,
> Pig, Myfaces...)
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
> On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 8:08 PM Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>>
>> In March, I wrote a script to find establishment resolutions, and to
>> scan those resolutions for the word 'incubator':
>>
>> https://whimsy.apache.org/incubator/graduated#summary
>>
>> As always, the data is a bit dirty. There are a number of projects
>> that were created before we had establish resolutions, and some
>> projects like comdev -- while technically "bypassing" the incubator --
>> are not the types of projects you are looking for.
>>
>> - Sam Ruby
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 7:28 AM Sharan Foga <sh...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi All
>>>
>>> Does anyone know if there is a list of projects that bypassed incubation? For example - I know a couple of projects Royale and Kibble that went straight to TLP. Is there a list anywhere for all projects like this?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Sharan
>>>
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>>>
>
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Re: List of Projects that went straight to Top Level Projects
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
I've gone ahead and added information from podlings.xml to this data.
We have a number of entries which are in podlings.xml but don't
contain incubator in their establishment resolution (Tika, Tapestry,
Pig, Myfaces...)
- Sam Ruby
On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 8:08 PM Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>
> In March, I wrote a script to find establishment resolutions, and to
> scan those resolutions for the word 'incubator':
>
> https://whimsy.apache.org/incubator/graduated#summary
>
> As always, the data is a bit dirty. There are a number of projects
> that were created before we had establish resolutions, and some
> projects like comdev -- while technically "bypassing" the incubator --
> are not the types of projects you are looking for.
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
> On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 7:28 AM Sharan Foga <sh...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hi All
> >
> > Does anyone know if there is a list of projects that bypassed incubation? For example - I know a couple of projects Royale and Kibble that went straight to TLP. Is there a list anywhere for all projects like this?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Sharan
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
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Re: List of Projects that went straight to Top Level Projects
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
In March, I wrote a script to find establishment resolutions, and to
scan those resolutions for the word 'incubator':
https://whimsy.apache.org/incubator/graduated#summary
As always, the data is a bit dirty. There are a number of projects
that were created before we had establish resolutions, and some
projects like comdev -- while technically "bypassing" the incubator --
are not the types of projects you are looking for.
- Sam Ruby
On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 7:28 AM Sharan Foga <sh...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Hi All
>
> Does anyone know if there is a list of projects that bypassed incubation? For example - I know a couple of projects Royale and Kibble that went straight to TLP. Is there a list anywhere for all projects like this?
>
> Thanks
> Sharan
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
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Re: List of Projects that went straight to Top Level Projects
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 7:43 AM Justin Mclean <ju...@me.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> > Actually, it is pretty easy to tell. The bottom of the resolution will
> say
> > something like "". Compare Royale[1] (with a discharge of
> responsibilities)
> > compared to Serf[2].
>
> Perhaps?
>
> Royale has:
> "RESOLVED, that all responsibilities pertaining to Apache FlexJS
> encumbered upon the Apache Flex Project are hereafter discharged.”
>
> Flex has:
> " RESOLVED, that all responsibilities pertaining to the Apache
> Incubator Flex podling encumbered upon the Apache Incubator
> Project are hereafter discharged.”
>
> Whimsey [1] however has nothing similar.
>
Not sure that I understand your concern. Whimsy and Serf went "straight to
TLP", so there is no discharge of responsibilities from "prior ownership".
Podlings that graduate (like Flex) have a resolution saying that the
Incubator is no longer responsibility for the project. Projects that
spin-out (like Royale) say their prior project has no further
responsibility for what gets spun out.
> But given all board reports are at:
> https://whimsy.apache.org/board/minutes/XXX.html
>
> It may be easy to script that and come up with a list.
>
Sure.
Cheers,
-g
Re: List of Projects that went straight to Top Level Projects
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@me.com>.
Hi,
> Actually, it is pretty easy to tell. The bottom of the resolution will say
> something like "". Compare Royale[1] (with a discharge of responsibilities)
> compared to Serf[2].
Perhaps?
Royale has:
"RESOLVED, that all responsibilities pertaining to Apache FlexJS
encumbered upon the Apache Flex Project are hereafter discharged.”
Flex has:
" RESOLVED, that all responsibilities pertaining to the Apache
Incubator Flex podling encumbered upon the Apache Incubator
Project are hereafter discharged.”
Whimsey [1] however has nothing similar.
But given all board reports are at:
https://whimsy.apache.org/board/minutes/XXX.html
It may be easy to script that and come up with a list.
Thanks,
Justin
1. https://whimsy.apache.org/board/minutes/Whimsy.html
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Re: List of Projects that went straight to Top Level Projects
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 7:06 AM Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 6:57 AM Justin Mclean <ju...@me.com> wrote:
> >...
>
>> there. The board resolutions don’t make it clear if it’s straight TLP or
>> not from what I can see
>
>
> Actually, it is pretty easy to tell. The bottom of the resolution will say
> something like "".
>
Oop. "that all responsibilities pertaining to $FOO encumbered upon the $BAR
are hereafter discharged"
>
Re: List of Projects that went straight to Top Level Projects
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 6:57 AM Justin Mclean <ju...@me.com> wrote:
>...
> there. The board resolutions don’t make it clear if it’s straight TLP or
> not from what I can see
Actually, it is pretty easy to tell. The bottom of the resolution will say
something like "". Compare Royale[1] (with a discharge of responsibilities)
compared to Serf[2].
Cheers,
-g
[1] https://whimsy.apache.org/board/minutes/Royale.html
[2] https://whimsy.apache.org/board/minutes/Serf.html
Re: List of Projects that went straight to Top Level Projects
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@me.com>.
hi,
> Does anyone know if there is a list of projects that bypassed incubation? For example - I know a couple of projects Royale and Kibble that went straight to TLP. Is there a list anywhere for all projects like this?
Not that I know. It’s rare, and there are some that are more “outliers" e.g. Apache Steve and Whimsey. The only other project I know of is Polygene/Zest? But I may be mistaken there. The board resolutions don’t make it clear if it’s straight TLP or not from what I can see and as they skip the incubator is may not be discussed here. I assume some older / long term ASF board members may have a better recollection.
Thanks,
Justin
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Re: List of Projects that went straight to Top Level Projects
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 6:28 AM Sharan Foga <sh...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi All
>
> Does anyone know if there is a list of projects that bypassed incubation?
> For example - I know a couple of projects Royale and Kibble that went
> straight to TLP. Is there a list anywhere for all projects like this?
Royale was spun out of Flex, so that doesn't really count. The same
occurred for many projects where they started as part of the Jakarta and
XML umbrella projects, or the Hadoop project.
Some projects that bypassed the Incubator: Serf, STeVe, Zest/Polygene.
Probably more, but those are the ones that come to mind.
Each of these are characterized by a very large number of long-time ASF
Members. I think Serf had a dozen, and one non-Member. STeVe started with a
half-dozen Members. Zest similarly. So contrary to Geertjan's follow up
email, these projects had nothing to learn through the Incubator processes.
eg. for Serf: myself, Roy, and Jim Jagielski were on Serf's original PMC,
and the three of us *started* the Incubator back in 2002 :-) (with Jim as
the very first Incubator VP) ... Heck, Roy and Jim were part of the
original founders of the *Foundation* (I've only been a Member for 19.5
years :p ).
Cheers,
-g
Re: List of Projects that went straight to Top Level Projects
Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@apache.org>.
Hi Sharan,
On the top of my mind: Apache STeVe, Apache Whimsy/Whimsical
Best regards,
Pierre Smits
*Apache Trafodion <https://trafodion.apache.org>, Vice President*
*Apache Directory <https://directory.apache.org>, PMC Member*
Apache Incubator <https://incubator.apache.org>, committer
*Apache OFBiz <https://ofbiz.apache.org>, contributor (without privileges)
since 2008*
Apache Steve <https://steve.apache.org>, committer
On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 1:28 PM Sharan Foga <sh...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi All
>
> Does anyone know if there is a list of projects that bypassed incubation?
> For example - I know a couple of projects Royale and Kibble that went
> straight to TLP. Is there a list anywhere for all projects like this?
>
> Thanks
> Sharan
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: List of Projects that went straight to Top Level Projects
Posted by sh...@apache.org.
Hi Dave
Thanks very much for this. I will take a closer look at it and get back
to you if I have any questions.
Thanks
Sharan
On 31. 03. 19 20:44, Dave Fisher wrote:
> Hi Sharan,
>
> Despite all of the discussions about why one wants to do this you have your reasons.
>
> Greg gives one way to research / tease out this info from Board resolutions. I’ll point out a page which may have the data you need. (Graduations from the Incubator to another TLP do not require a Board Resolution, instead there is PMC VOTE)
>
> https://projects.apache.org <https://projects.apache.org/>
>
> The data for the projects graph along with the podlings data can give you a lot of information including podlings which graduated into another TLP, etcetera. I have yet to learn the project/TLP data on that page but I fully understand the podlings data. I just rewrote this page https://incubator.apache.org/projects/ <https://incubator.apache.org/projects/> which is wholly built from podlings.xml.
>
> Let me know if you want me to help you gather data in a suitable format.
>
> Regards,
> Dave
>
>> On Mar 31, 2019, at 4:28 AM, Sharan Foga <sh...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi All
>>
>> Does anyone know if there is a list of projects that bypassed incubation? For example - I know a couple of projects Royale and Kibble that went straight to TLP. Is there a list anywhere for all projects like this?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Sharan
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>
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Re: List of Projects that went straight to Top Level Projects
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
Hi Sharan,
Despite all of the discussions about why one wants to do this you have your reasons.
Greg gives one way to research / tease out this info from Board resolutions. I’ll point out a page which may have the data you need. (Graduations from the Incubator to another TLP do not require a Board Resolution, instead there is PMC VOTE)
https://projects.apache.org <https://projects.apache.org/>
The data for the projects graph along with the podlings data can give you a lot of information including podlings which graduated into another TLP, etcetera. I have yet to learn the project/TLP data on that page but I fully understand the podlings data. I just rewrote this page https://incubator.apache.org/projects/ <https://incubator.apache.org/projects/> which is wholly built from podlings.xml.
Let me know if you want me to help you gather data in a suitable format.
Regards,
Dave
> On Mar 31, 2019, at 4:28 AM, Sharan Foga <sh...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Hi All
>
> Does anyone know if there is a list of projects that bypassed incubation? For example - I know a couple of projects Royale and Kibble that went straight to TLP. Is there a list anywhere for all projects like this?
>
> Thanks
> Sharan
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
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Re: List of Projects that went straight to Top Level Projects
Posted by Ross Gardler <ro...@gardler.me>.
This was an outcome of the last time the IPMC processes were challenged. Basically the board agreed that in cases where the initial PMC consisted of plenty of existing experienced ASF people there was no need for incubation.
There was never an intention of going straight to TLP if there was not sufficient experience in the PMC to start with.
Ross
________________________________________
From: Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID>
Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2019 4:51 AM
To: general@incubator.apache.org; sharan@apache.org
Subject: Re: List of Projects that went straight to Top Level Projects
Ah, OK. I’d be interested in the outcome of that research too. I don’t
think it’s common to skip incubation and I’m sure a lot would not be
learned by skipping it.
Gj
On Sun, 31 Mar 2019 at 13:44, <sh...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi Geertjan
>
> Thanks for the email and I'm not thinking of doing it at all.
>
> I'm planning to do some research for on the embedding of ASF culture and
> incubator is one of the main way this happens. Sometimes as in the cases
> of the projects I mentioned, the process is bypassed so one of the
> things I'd like to investigate is the effect of missing out on
> incubation. My question about the list of projects that went to TLP was
> more about making sure I have as much data as possible to base my
> research on.
>
> Thanks
> Sharan
>
>
> On 31. 03. 19 13:36, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
> > I would highly recommend that you don’t do this. What would be the reason
> > to go straight to TLP? There’s a lot to learn and many mistakes to make,
> > and speaking from experience, it is best to learn and make mistakes in
> the
> > incubator, which is precisely its purpose.
> >
> > Gj
> >
> > On Sun, 31 Mar 2019 at 13:28, Sharan Foga <sh...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi All
> >>
> >> Does anyone know if there is a list of projects that bypassed
> incubation?
> >> For example - I know a couple of projects Royale and Kibble that went
> >> straight to TLP. Is there a list anywhere for all projects like this?
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >> Sharan
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>
> >>
>
>
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Re: List of Projects that went straight to Top Level Projects
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 4:52 PM Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > Pre-incubator:
> > Ant,
> Jakarta
> > Avalon,
> Jakarta
> > DB,
> Jakarta
Thanks for the corrections!
> > HTTP Server, Jakarta, Perl, PHP, TCL, XML
> >
> > Spun out from elsewhere:
> > Archiva,
> Maven ?
Generally this information can be found in the establish resolution,
in the paragraph that contains the word discharged. This extraction
can often be automated, so I added this code.
Some older resolutions don't quite follow this pattern (and some PMCs
like Labs, etc aren't what we are looking for), so I hardcoded a
table:
https://github.com/apache/whimsy/commit/9667387e7467a98918dc3047ef32979462a92fc6
Updated results can be found here: https://whimsy.apache.org/incubator/graduated
Note: this site is live in the sense that it will continue to update
as new TLPs are created and projects are retired. There may
occasionally be special cases to handle like the rename of Zest =>
Polygene.
- Sam Ruby
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Re: List of Projects that went straight to Top Level Projects
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
Hi -
I took Greg’s challenge and did research on the roots. Mailing List Archives are important resources!
> On Apr 1, 2019, at 12:21 PM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 2:28 PM Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 1:11 PM Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Most of the projects mentioned so far have been “internal”
>>
>>
>> Only because all the umbrella-derived projects haven't been mentioned. Most
>> of that "spin out to a TLP" was done a decade ago, so they've been omitted
>> from discussion.
>>
>>
>>> - code developed to help run the ASF. “External” projects also go
>>> straight-to-TLP and are more important because they have many more users
>>> and greater impact on the world.
>>>
>>
>> I recall only two "external" projects have gone straight-to-TLP: Serf,
>> Zest/Polygene. I'm guessing Dave, et al, will surface others, if they
>> exist. I would disagree with your latter statement; they went to TLP based
>> on oversight, rather than on userbase/impact.
>>
>> I would suggest: the 90% of straight-to-TLP have been "internal" or
>> "spun-out".
>
> My rough cut:
>
> Straight to TLP:
> Bahir, DRAT, Kibble, Orc, Serf, STeVe, Whimsy, Zest
>
> Pre-incubator:
> Ant,
Jakarta
> Avalon,
Jakarta
> DB,
Jakarta
> HTTP Server, Jakarta, Perl, PHP, TCL, XML
>
> Spun out from elsewhere:
> Archiva,
Maven ?
> Arrow,
Drill
> Avro,
Hadoop
> Axis,
Web Services
> Bookkeeper,
Zookeeper
> Camel,
? XML ?
> Commons
Jakarta
> Continuum,
Maven
> Excalibur,
Jakarta
> Forrest,
XML
> Gump,
Jakarta
> Hadoop,
Nutch
> HBase,
Hadoop
> HiveMind,
Jakarta
> HTTPComponents,
Jakarta
> JAMES,
Jakarta
> JMeter,
Jakarta
> Karaf,
Felix
> Logging Services,
Jakarta
> Lucene,
Jakarta
> Mahout,
Lucene
> Maven,
Jakarta
> Mina,
Directory
> POI,
Jakarta
> Quetzalcoatl,
Mod_python - see mod python.org
> Royale,
Flex
> Santuario,
Rename of XML-Security
> Shale,
Struts
> Struts,
Jakarta
> Tiles,
Struts?
> Tomcat,
Jakarta
> Turbine,
Jakarta
> Velocity,
Jakarta
> Web Services
Looks like it was built as an Uber project out of some of XML in Jan 2002.
> Xalan,
XML out of breakup
> Xerces,
November 1999
> XML Graphics,
XML out of breakup ????
> Yetus,
Hadoop
> Zookepper
Hadoop
Regards,
Dave
>
> Non-code PMC:
> Attic, Community Development, Incubator, Labs, Public Relations
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
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Re: List of Projects that went straight to Top Level Projects
Posted by Marcelo Vanzin <va...@cloudera.com.INVALID>.
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 1:08 PM Lars Francke <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Straight to TLP:
> > Bahir, DRAT, Kibble, Orc, Serf, STeVe, Whimsy, Zest
>
> ORC was spun out of Hive as far as I remember.
In that sense Bahir was also spun out of Spark, although it added a
lot of things after that.
--
Marcelo
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Re: List of Projects that went straight to Top Level Projects
Posted by Lars Francke <la...@gmail.com>.
>
>
> Straight to TLP:
> Bahir, DRAT, Kibble, Orc, Serf, STeVe, Whimsy, Zest
>
ORC was spun out of Hive as far as I remember.
Re: List of Projects that went straight to Top Level Projects
Posted by Sharan Foga <sh...@apache.org>.
Hi Sam
Thanks for the rough cut list as it gives me more of the context so I can see where to select projects from for comparison. My thought is to do some analysis with Kibble as I did with my previous paper (summary version is here https://s.apache.org/rguz and full version is here https://s.apache.org/y9Mv) and maybe follow it up with a survey or interview of the mentors or PMC members.
Will let people know when I have some details / results to share.
Thanks
Sharan
On 2019/04/01 19:21:39, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 2:28 PM Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 1:11 PM Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > > Most of the projects mentioned so far have been “internal”
> >
> >
> > Only because all the umbrella-derived projects haven't been mentioned. Most
> > of that "spin out to a TLP" was done a decade ago, so they've been omitted
> > from discussion.
> >
> >
> > > - code developed to help run the ASF. “External” projects also go
> > > straight-to-TLP and are more important because they have many more users
> > > and greater impact on the world.
> > >
> >
> > I recall only two "external" projects have gone straight-to-TLP: Serf,
> > Zest/Polygene. I'm guessing Dave, et al, will surface others, if they
> > exist. I would disagree with your latter statement; they went to TLP based
> > on oversight, rather than on userbase/impact.
> >
> > I would suggest: the 90% of straight-to-TLP have been "internal" or
> > "spun-out".
>
> My rough cut:
>
> Straight to TLP:
> Bahir, DRAT, Kibble, Orc, Serf, STeVe, Whimsy, Zest
>
> Pre-incubator:
> Ant, Avalon, Cocoon, DB, HTTP Server, Jakarta, Perl, PHP, TCL, XML
>
> Spun out from elsewhere:
> Archiva, Arrow, Avro, Axis, BookkeeperA, Camel, Continuum, Excalibur,
> Forrest, Gump, Hadoop, HBase, HiveMind, HTTPComponents, JAMES, JMeter,
> Karaf, Logging Services, Lucene, Mahout, Maven, Mina, POI, Quetzalcoatl,
> Royale, Santuario, Shale, Struts, Tiles, Tomcat, Turbine, Velocity,
> Web Services< Xalan, Xerces, XML Graphics, Yetus, Zookepper
>
> Non-code PMC:
> Attic, Community Development, Incubator, Labs, Public Relations
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
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>
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Re: List of Projects that went straight to Top Level Projects
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 2:28 PM Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 1:11 PM Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Most of the projects mentioned so far have been “internal”
>
>
> Only because all the umbrella-derived projects haven't been mentioned. Most
> of that "spin out to a TLP" was done a decade ago, so they've been omitted
> from discussion.
>
>
> > - code developed to help run the ASF. “External” projects also go
> > straight-to-TLP and are more important because they have many more users
> > and greater impact on the world.
> >
>
> I recall only two "external" projects have gone straight-to-TLP: Serf,
> Zest/Polygene. I'm guessing Dave, et al, will surface others, if they
> exist. I would disagree with your latter statement; they went to TLP based
> on oversight, rather than on userbase/impact.
>
> I would suggest: the 90% of straight-to-TLP have been "internal" or
> "spun-out".
My rough cut:
Straight to TLP:
Bahir, DRAT, Kibble, Orc, Serf, STeVe, Whimsy, Zest
Pre-incubator:
Ant, Avalon, Cocoon, DB, HTTP Server, Jakarta, Perl, PHP, TCL, XML
Spun out from elsewhere:
Archiva, Arrow, Avro, Axis, BookkeeperA, Camel, Continuum, Excalibur,
Forrest, Gump, Hadoop, HBase, HiveMind, HTTPComponents, JAMES, JMeter,
Karaf, Logging Services, Lucene, Mahout, Maven, Mina, POI, Quetzalcoatl,
Royale, Santuario, Shale, Struts, Tiles, Tomcat, Turbine, Velocity,
Web Services< Xalan, Xerces, XML Graphics, Yetus, Zookepper
Non-code PMC:
Attic, Community Development, Incubator, Labs, Public Relations
- Sam Ruby
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Re: List of Projects that went straight to Top Level Projects
Posted by Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org>.
> On Apr 1, 2019, at 11:19 AM, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I would disagree with your latter statement; they went to TLP based
> on oversight, rather than on userbase/impact.
I didn’t mean to suggest that we treated them differently because they had a large user base.
By “important” I meant “worthy of discussion in this thread”.
Julian
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Re: List of Projects that went straight to Top Level Projects
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 1:11 PM Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org> wrote:
> Most of the projects mentioned so far have been “internal”
Only because all the umbrella-derived projects haven't been mentioned. Most
of that "spin out to a TLP" was done a decade ago, so they've been omitted
from discussion.
> - code developed to help run the ASF. “External” projects also go
> straight-to-TLP and are more important because they have many more users
> and greater impact on the world.
>
I recall only two "external" projects have gone straight-to-TLP: Serf,
Zest/Polygene. I'm guessing Dave, et al, will surface others, if they
exist. I would disagree with your latter statement; they went to TLP based
on oversight, rather than on userbase/impact.
I would suggest: the 90% of straight-to-TLP have been "internal" or
"spun-out".
Cheers,
-g
Re: List of Projects that went straight to Top Level Projects
Posted by Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org>.
Most of the projects mentioned so far have been “internal” - code developed to help run the ASF. “External” projects also go straight-to-TLP and are more important because they have many more users and greater impact on the world.
A couple of examples I am aware of have been “refactorings”, taking code and members from an existing project to form a new project:
* Arrow was created from Drill in this way;
* Hive was factored out of Hadoop;
* I don’t recall whether HCatalog was created as a podling, but it was later absorbed into Hive in what might be considered a reverse of the straight-to-TLP process.
(Please forgive me / correct me if I get the details of these projects wrong. I was only directly involved with Arrow.)
I do think that these projects are worth learning from. Creating a new project and community by “re-potting” is a powerful pattern that projects should use when appropriate.
Julian
> On Apr 1, 2019, at 4:11 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 1:58 PM Geertjan Wielenga
> <ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>> ...I don’t
>> think it’s common to skip incubation and I’m sure a lot would not be
>> learned by skipping it....
>
> The rationale for the very few projects that have gone direct to TLP
> is that there was nothing to learn.
>
> A good example is http://steve.apache.org/ : the code already existed
> somewhere on ASF servers, was managed informally by a number of
> long-term ASF Members.
>
> Moving to a TLP clarifies things in this case, and incubation wouldn't
> have brought any advantages.
>
> But it's really an exceptional process applied to a handful of
> projects so far out of about 200 PMCs nowadays.
>
> -Bertrand
>
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Re: List of Projects that went straight to Top Level Projects
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch>.
Hi,
On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 1:58 PM Geertjan Wielenga
<ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> ...I don’t
> think it’s common to skip incubation and I’m sure a lot would not be
> learned by skipping it....
The rationale for the very few projects that have gone direct to TLP
is that there was nothing to learn.
A good example is http://steve.apache.org/ : the code already existed
somewhere on ASF servers, was managed informally by a number of
long-term ASF Members.
Moving to a TLP clarifies things in this case, and incubation wouldn't
have brought any advantages.
But it's really an exceptional process applied to a handful of
projects so far out of about 200 PMCs nowadays.
-Bertrand
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Re: List of Projects that went straight to Top Level Projects
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID>.
Ah, OK. I’d be interested in the outcome of that research too. I don’t
think it’s common to skip incubation and I’m sure a lot would not be
learned by skipping it.
Gj
On Sun, 31 Mar 2019 at 13:44, <sh...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi Geertjan
>
> Thanks for the email and I'm not thinking of doing it at all.
>
> I'm planning to do some research for on the embedding of ASF culture and
> incubator is one of the main way this happens. Sometimes as in the cases
> of the projects I mentioned, the process is bypassed so one of the
> things I'd like to investigate is the effect of missing out on
> incubation. My question about the list of projects that went to TLP was
> more about making sure I have as much data as possible to base my
> research on.
>
> Thanks
> Sharan
>
>
> On 31. 03. 19 13:36, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
> > I would highly recommend that you don’t do this. What would be the reason
> > to go straight to TLP? There’s a lot to learn and many mistakes to make,
> > and speaking from experience, it is best to learn and make mistakes in
> the
> > incubator, which is precisely its purpose.
> >
> > Gj
> >
> > On Sun, 31 Mar 2019 at 13:28, Sharan Foga <sh...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi All
> >>
> >> Does anyone know if there is a list of projects that bypassed
> incubation?
> >> For example - I know a couple of projects Royale and Kibble that went
> >> straight to TLP. Is there a list anywhere for all projects like this?
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >> Sharan
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>
> >>
>
>
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Re: List of Projects that went straight to Top Level Projects
Posted by sh...@apache.org.
Hi Geertjan
Thanks for the email and I'm not thinking of doing it at all.
I'm planning to do some research for on the embedding of ASF culture and
incubator is one of the main way this happens. Sometimes as in the cases
of the projects I mentioned, the process is bypassed so one of the
things I'd like to investigate is the effect of missing out on
incubation. My question about the list of projects that went to TLP was
more about making sure I have as much data as possible to base my
research on.
Thanks
Sharan
On 31. 03. 19 13:36, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
> I would highly recommend that you don’t do this. What would be the reason
> to go straight to TLP? There’s a lot to learn and many mistakes to make,
> and speaking from experience, it is best to learn and make mistakes in the
> incubator, which is precisely its purpose.
>
> Gj
>
> On Sun, 31 Mar 2019 at 13:28, Sharan Foga <sh...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi All
>>
>> Does anyone know if there is a list of projects that bypassed incubation?
>> For example - I know a couple of projects Royale and Kibble that went
>> straight to TLP. Is there a list anywhere for all projects like this?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Sharan
>>
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Re: List of Projects that went straight to Top Level Projects
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID>.
I would highly recommend that you don’t do this. What would be the reason
to go straight to TLP? There’s a lot to learn and many mistakes to make,
and speaking from experience, it is best to learn and make mistakes in the
incubator, which is precisely its purpose.
Gj
On Sun, 31 Mar 2019 at 13:28, Sharan Foga <sh...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi All
>
> Does anyone know if there is a list of projects that bypassed incubation?
> For example - I know a couple of projects Royale and Kibble that went
> straight to TLP. Is there a list anywhere for all projects like this?
>
> Thanks
> Sharan
>
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>