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Posted to dev@lenya.apache.org by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org> on 2003/12/16 09:06:20 UTC
[RT] Lenya top level?
I have been watching the Lenya incubation with interest, and what I
think I see is a project with a strong identity that is well able to
manage himself.
Furthermore, I have not seen a deep involvement of the Lenya community
in Cocoon or of the Cocoon community in Lenya, but sane support and
cross-pollination between two projects, each with it's own roadmap and
goals.
Thus, it seems to me that Lenya belongs more as a top-level project in
Apache rather than under the Cocoon umbrella, and from what I see it
seems that is is well capable of being indipendent.
If this community, the Lenya community, decides that it wants to become
a full-blown indipendent project, I'm quite sure that the Cocoon Project
will be happy to let it be.
So, what do you think?
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: [RT] Lenya top level?
Posted by Andreas Kuckartz <A....@ping.de>.
> Another issue is certainly to leave the incubater at some point, but I
> think there are some points we need to get done first before we should
> apply for leaving incubator.
Which points are are these?
I do not know if Lenya should be a top level project. Anyway I think that
the "top level" question should be discussed after leaving the incubator. It
would probably be possible to first become a top level project and then
leave the incubator or to do both at the same time but I do not think that
that would be good. (Cocoon could later become a subproject of Lenya :-)
Cheers,
Andreas
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Re: [RT] Lenya top level?
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> I have been watching the Lenya incubation with interest, and what I
> think I see is a project with a strong identity that is well able to
> manage himself.
>
> Furthermore, I have not seen a deep involvement of the Lenya community
> in Cocoon or of the Cocoon community in Lenya, but sane support and
> cross-pollination between two projects, each with it's own roadmap and
> goals.
>
> Thus, it seems to me that Lenya belongs more as a top-level project in
> Apache rather than under the Cocoon umbrella, and from what I see it
> seems that is is well capable of being indipendent.
>
> If this community, the Lenya community, decides that it wants to become
> a full-blown indipendent project, I'm quite sure that the Cocoon Project
> will be happy to let it be.
>
> So, what do you think?
>
I think it's very flattering that you and others see the potential of
Lenya becoming a top-level project.
But I think for the moment we are still very fine within the Cocoon
community.
I think for the moment we should rather focuse on the following points:
1) Consolidate and further stabilize Lenya
2) Fix all the bugs and get out Lenya 1.2
3) Foster the community (especially the dev community)
4) Refactor, resp. replace old stuff by new stuff (e.g. flow)
5) Get our hands on Cocoon and other projects
some points are short term and others are long term.
Another issue is certainly to leave the incubater at some point, but I
think there are some points we need to get done first before we should
apply for leaving incubator.
Thanks
Michi
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
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Re: [RT] Lenya top level?
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
> Lenya is not even close to be ready to exit incubation: if Wyona dies
> today, Lenya is dead.
I don't think so, because some of us would definitely keep on working on
it, but yes, with less workforce.
But as I stated in a previous email, I also think it's too early.
Thanks
Michi
>
>
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>
>
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
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Re: [RT] Lenya top level?
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
On 19 Dec 2003, at 05:06, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
> ...
>> i am with michael in thinking that it would be a bit premature. but
>> maybe my perception of top level projects is shaped by mega projects
>> like jakarta. if there is room for smaller projects in the top level
>> space, then i am in favour.
>
> Exactly the point. Look at http://www.apache.org/
> Ant is not a mega project, nor Cocoon or James, and logging.apache.org
> has just been approved by the board (from log4j).
>
> Apache is (slowly) moving in a direction where projects administer
> themselves without having to be under an umbrella Project, so that
> it's easier to ensure proper oversight. As an example, Jakarta has
> already spun off many projects, and it will most probably do so again.
> Note that this does not mean that Lenya cannot cooperate with Cocoon,
> or have cross-commit privileges (Cocoon,Forrest,Avalon have commit
> privs between them even if they are (in) different TLPs), just that it
> manages itself indipendently and reports directly to the board.
>
> Just think about it, and when Lenya will feel it's time to get out of
> incubation, it will have to be decided.
Historically, Apache incubated projects using containers that had some
sort of taxonomical feature... but as everybody trying to do taxonomies
pretty soon finds out, there is no single way to categorize a list of
things. Software projects can be categorized in many different ways,
but no single taxonomy can make everybody happy.
Also there is the problem of legal oversight: the PMC concept was
designed aroun the HTTPd project with the "one codebase, one team, one
PMC" concept. The very nature of the ASF reflects this and containers
projects (such as jakarta or xml) "shaded" some of the foundation
structures and created problems that are still very much noticable
today.
The reason for Nicola's proposal comes from a comment I made in the
cocoon PMC list referring to the fact that I will be against
introducing other projects in cocoon.apache.org: the cocoon PMC should
focus on cocoon and cocoon only. If new cocoon projects emerge, they
will go to the incubator and, if successful, they will get top-level
status.
This is, IMO, the best way for the foundation to scale. Taxonomical
containers are evil, they create monocultures and increase
balkanization (jakarta is an example of internal ASF balkanization, so
this is not just FUD)
At the same time, I think Nicola rushed on this too much.
Lenya is not even close to be ready to exit incubation: if Wyona dies
today, Lenya is dead. I will not personally give my sponsor +1 to exit
of incubation until I can feel assured that if Wyona dies, the project
would continue.
The introduction of the first external committer is a *great* thing and
shows that the community factor is kicking it... and the load on apache
machines shows that there is a lot of interest in Lenya.
So, don't get me wrong: Lenya is in much better shape that it was just
6 months ago and the gears are moving. I predict that more and more
interest will be created, after a release and after Doco comes alive
and shows off the potentials.
After Lenya exist incubation, I estimate a transition period inside
cocoon.apache.org and then, when the community feels confortable
enough, ask the board to create lenya.apache.org
If I had to make a prediction, I think lenya.apache.org will be created
12/18 months from now.
So, for now, keep up the great work and don't think about it. When
things are ready, thing will just happen by themselves.
--
Stefano.
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Re: [RT] Lenya top level?
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
...
> i am with michael in thinking that it would be a bit premature. but
> maybe my perception of top level projects is shaped by mega projects
> like jakarta. if there is room for smaller projects in the top level
> space, then i am in favour.
Exactly the point. Look at http://www.apache.org/
Ant is not a mega project, nor Cocoon or James, and logging.apache.org
has just been approved by the board (from log4j).
Apache is (slowly) moving in a direction where projects administer
themselves without having to be under an umbrella Project, so that it's
easier to ensure proper oversight. As an example, Jakarta has already
spun off many projects, and it will most probably do so again.
Note that this does not mean that Lenya cannot cooperate with Cocoon, or
have cross-commit privileges (Cocoon,Forrest,Avalon have commit privs
between them even if they are (in) different TLPs), just that it manages
itself indipendently and reports directly to the board.
Just think about it, and when Lenya will feel it's time to get out of
incubation, it will have to be decided.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: [RT] Lenya top level?
Posted by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@apache.org>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> I have been watching the Lenya incubation with interest, and what I
> think I see is a project with a strong identity that is well able to
> manage himself.
thanks for the vote of confidence :)
> Furthermore, I have not seen a deep involvement of the Lenya community
> in Cocoon or of the Cocoon community in Lenya, but sane support and
> cross-pollination between two projects, each with it's own roadmap and
> goals.
yep, that is accurate. i personally expect closer ties as we do more
flow work and tackle the refactoring of lenya into cocoon blocks.
> Thus, it seems to me that Lenya belongs more as a top-level project in
> Apache rather than under the Cocoon umbrella, and from what I see it
> seems that is is well capable of being indipendent.
>
> If this community, the Lenya community, decides that it wants to become
> a full-blown indipendent project, I'm quite sure that the Cocoon Project
> will be happy to let it be.
>
> So, what do you think?
i am with michael in thinking that it would be a bit premature. but
maybe my perception of top level projects is shaped by mega projects
like jakarta. if there is room for smaller projects in the top level
space, then i am in favour.
-gregor
--
Gregor J. Rothfuss
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya
gregor.rothfuss@wyona.com gregor@apache.org
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