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Posted to dev@olingo.apache.org by "Amend, Christian" <ch...@sap.com> on 2014/08/06 14:22:13 UTC
RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi Mark,
is there an estimated time when you could provide the summary?
Thanks & Best Regards,
Christian
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Mittwoch, 30. Juli 2014 16:34
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Cc: Handl, Ralf
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Sorry, Christian, thanks for the ping. There was an internal thread going on and I have relayed the ping to get a summary out to you. I hope to send that later today PST.
Thanks,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Amend, Christian [mailto:christian.amend@sap.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 7:21 AM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Cc: Handl, Ralf
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi everyone,
is there an update regarding the naming? If we could resolve this we can have another vote.
Best Regards,
Christian
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Freitag, 25. Juli 2014 16:54
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
I've reached out to our legal and a couple key members of the TC for comment, but a couple of preliminary comments (don't treat these as legal advice):
* We granted the logo to OASIS with the intention that it be made more available, not less. Specifically, we wanted SAP to be able to use it without having to worry about legal restrictions. So the new restrictions that have been placed on it really confuse me.
* The text OData is separate from the OData icon, so I'm not sure that guidance applies to names of libraries.
-----Original Message-----
From: Amend, Christian [mailto:christian.amend@sap.com]
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 10:31 PM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi,
I checked the OData.org website and found this entry from May 23th, 2014:
You MAY NOT use the OData Icon:
- As the name or logo of any product or software application.
-As an element of any other icon, logo, trademark, or service mark.
-In any manner that expresses or implies an affiliation with or endorsement by OASIS, OData.org, or any other party, absent a separate written agreement with an authorized licensor of the OData mark.
This is a blocker right? Can this be changed by the OData Committee? WDYT?
Best Regards,
Christian
Source: http://www.odata.org/documentation/odata-icon-usage-guidelines/
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Freitag, 25. Juli 2014 10:44
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Same here. Ralf, would you be able to clarify any potential trademark issues on behalf of OASIS? Or do we need to e-mail them per https://www.oasis-open.org/policies-guidelines/trademark?
Thanks,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Amend, Christian [mailto:christian.amend@sap.com]
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 3:48 PM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi,
I also like the idea of having OData in the Artifact name and this option should definitely be in the next vote once this discussion is over. But I would also like to have the trademark issue resolved beforehand and made part of this mail thread to make sure we are not violating any trademarks.
Maybe the people of the OData OASIS community could give their input on this and we could ask the people from Apache who specialize in branding what they can find. Unfortunately I am not an expert on this topic so I am very grateful for any advice on how to make sure we have no issues in the future there.
Best Regards,
Christian
-----Original Message-----
From: Handl, Ralf [mailto:ralf.handl@sap.com]
Sent: Freitag, 25. Juli 2014 09:11
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi all,
I like Christian's proposal of having just "OData" in the artifact names and reserve "Olingo" for the project name. In formal communication people can use the "fully qualified" name "Apache Olingo ODataXxx" (project name plus artifact name), and in informal communication the short names "ODataXxx" (artifact name only).
Good discussion!
--Ralf
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Friday, 25. July 2014 00:32
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Christian,
I have absolutely no objection to your suggestions below (and I appreciate the extra background information). I really do like the Apache project naming patterns and I support Olingo for the project name. I am exclusively focused on the release artifacts and it sounds like there's potential to keep the Apache project name but have a release artifact name that enables new OData-ites to find libraries easily.
Java and JavaScript are clearly the two dominant languages out there for most developers. Both have well-known package management release channels that (like .NET) don't require developers to know anything more than what technology they want to work with. Those release channels are where we really need to make it clear what the Olingo project is producing. (Because given a choice between OData4J and OlingoJava, my guess is that people will gravitate toward the former. At least ODataJava or a similar alternative will force them to stop and evaluate long enough to form a clearer picture.)
And again, thank you for your understanding. I fully recognize that the worst possible way to join a community is to barge in shouting, "DO IT MY WAY." It could easily feel like that's what I'm doing, but at the risk of repeating myself ad nauseum, my exclusive goal here is to make it as easy as possible for that new OData developer to find the best library for her JavaScript or Java application.
Thanks,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Amend, Christian [mailto:christian.amend@sap.com]
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 12:45 AM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi Mark,
I completely understand your concerns and I too agree that making a connection between Olingo and OData is not something which comes naturally.
Maybe it helps if I explain what we thought when this project first started here at Apache during incubation:
We had to decide for a name for this project. At first we thought of something like OData Java library or JavaOData. We decided against that for the following reasons:
1. There was already an open source project called OData4J and we wanted to prevent any confusion between the two projects.
2. The Apache trademark rules. We couldn`t take OData into the project name because it was not clear who is holding the trademarks. At that time I think it was Microsoft but the OASIS standard was on its way. Basically it was not clear enough and we wanted to start so we chose a name which had nothing to do with OData.
These were concerns which led to the name Olingo. But this is only the name for this project but not necessarily the name of the artifacts we release. Maybe we made a mistake not calling the release artifact OlingoJava but this is something we could change with the first V4 Java release.
So when we voted for the artifact name I voted for OlingoJS because I thought it fit well and it would allow for future implementations like maybe OlingoC++ or OlingoJava. I also had the hope that enough traffic on websites and blogposts would make it easier for people searching on the web to find Olingo if there are enough posts linking OData and Olingo together.
If trademark is out of the question I could also think of calling our release artifacts ODataJava and ODataJS. But this would not change the name of this project which would still be Olingo. So when someone talks about this project on a blog he would say: "Apache Olingo ODataJava" or "Apache Olingo ODataJS" but inside a maven dependency it would say ODataJava as an artifact name. WDYT?
About the statement from Florian I think that as our former mentor during incubation he just wanted to make clear that from an Apache point of view only PMC members have binding votes and these votes have to be cast on the dev list. This is just the Apache way of things. Of course it would be irresponsible to ignore any votes/opinions from the broader OData community which is using our library. But this is the reason we are still discussing this and have not gone ahead and changed the name.
Best Regards,
Christian
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Donnerstag, 24. Juli 2014 17:29
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
<merged threads>
WRT trademarks, a couple of thoughts:
* Trademarks are typically regional and I don't see filings for either OData or Olingo at http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=searchss&state=4809:lege0l.1.1.
* I believe Microsoft LCA would say that we've granted whatever rights we might have had to the OData "brand" to OASIS. I worked hard with LCA to turn over the rights to the OData logo to them.
I will preface my comments by saying that I am doing my best to protect the OData community, not diminish the Olingo community or brand. I have been a part of the OData community since I joined Microsoft over three years ago.
I strongly believe that we all are part of a bigger community. I fully recognize that this is comparatively unique for Apache projects. Many (probably most) Apache projects are fully unique and innovative. However, I think it's an enormous loss if Olingo tries to fit that same mold - Olingo is part of something bigger and better than it will ever be on its own. OData is a protocol designed to make it easy to interchange data. The whole point of OData is to be ONE community, unified between a set of best-practice conventions for implementing RESTful APIs. Introducing alternative brands just dilutes what we currently have and in my opinion would be a great loss for the community at large.
I love Apache's ability to come up with unique and catchy names but there is something more important at stake here. We should make it EASY for people to find the reference OData JavaScript and Java libraries. A new OData user should not have to figure out that - oh, hey - Olingo.JS does happen to be the reference implementation supported by members of the OData TC. The worst part about this is that it forces the OData community to context switch. What happens when they need a C++ or .NET client? Will they assume that there isn't one because Olingo.Cpp doesn't exist?
I fully admit that we messed up on the first name of the JavaScript client. DataJS was a bad name too. We have internal threads dating back well over a year about how we should unify the branding of these clients. We have done this with the .NET client, we are doing it with the C++ client, we did it with the mistake-of-a client we released for iOS (not proud of that one), and we would have done it with the JavaScript client if we hadn't used it to seed this project.
We don't want to put the Microsoft brand on the clients we are sponsoring, we want to put the OData brand on them. The fact that they're produced by Microsoft is interesting but incidental. We sincerely hope that you feel the same way.
So to be explicitly clear, for the sake of the OData community as a whole I am humbly asking for the names OData.JS or OData Client for JavaScript or something similar, and a name that follows the same pattern for the Java client. I do think the server is more negotiable, but even there we've branded our flagship .NET server "ASP.NET Web API OData" (I know, I know... it's Microsoft) and the C++ server will also have "OData" featured prominently in the name. I don't want this to come across the wrong way, but please be part of the larger community, not a distinct community.
Thanks for hearing me out,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Florian Müller [mailto:fmui@apache.org]
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 10:50 PM
To: dev; Mark Stafford
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi Mark,
A vote on the name of a sub project of an Apache project has to happen on an Apache mailing list. Votes of PMC members are bindings. Votes from others are welcome, but not binding. That is not negotiable.
Ideally, the discussion should also take place on an Apache mailing list to keep a record of the discussion.
Input from outside is always appreciated, but the PMC members make the final decision.
- Florian
-----Original Message-----
From: Bolz, Michael [mailto:michael.bolz@sap.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 10:27 PM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: Re: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi together,
IMHO the Odata community can also discuss about naming and give suggestions but at the end the decision has to be on the "Olingo Dev Mailinglist <de...@olingo.apache.org>" by the PMC Members.
To the naming, I like it to have all libraries within Apache Olingo the "Olingo" part in their name which is the case for "Olingo.JS".
But I can understand and agree with the argument that if someone search for "odata javascript" he would find better results if the name is "OData.JS".
Beside of the points above, the trademark for "Olingo" is owned by Apache but who owns the trademark for "OData"?
Could we name it "OData.JS" without getting trouble about the trademark?
Kind regards,
Michael
On 24.07.14 12:05, "Mark Stafford" <ma...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>This seems reasonable and it was on my to-read list so thanks for
>pushing on the issue. I think those rules probably work very well for
>most Apache projects and will probably work very well for the vast
>majority of the issues the Olingo community will be voting on. But we
>need to remember that this is a reasonably unique project. It is part
>of a much larger community. We obviously will not be blogging on
>odata.org about code changes in these libraries. But for meta questions
>I think it absolutely makes sense to ask the larger community. This
>would include things like names, moving projects around, relative priorities of projects, etc.
>
>Thanks,
>Mark
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Klevenz, Stephan [mailto:stephan.klevenz@sap.com]
>Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 4:49 PM
>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>Subject: Re: Java Script library Name voting result
>
>Hi all,
>
>Please have a look at [1] so that we have a common understanding of the
>Apache voting process.
>
>I don't want to stress this to much. We are having a healthy discussion
>and I am pretty sure that we get a consensus. After that we can do a
>new vote.
>
>Regards,
>Stephan
>
>[1] http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html
>
>
>
>
>On 24.07.14 10:29, "Mark Stafford" <ma...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
>>I'm not asking us to exclude dev@olingo.apache.org, just asking to
>>include a larger community. As far as I can tell there's less than 20
>>members on this mailing list and most of us work for Microsoft or SAP
>>so it's not a good place to get feedback on something as visible as
>>the name of the library. By contrast odata.org had 61,000 unique
>>visitors in June.
>>We certainly won't get responses from that many people, but I'd hope
>>we can get a voting result that includes more than six votes from two
>>companies. That's not a very representative sample.
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Kobler-Morris, Sven [mailto:sven.kobler-morris@sap.com]
>>Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 4:02 PM
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
>>
>>Hello Mark,
>>
>>think it is best if discussion took place on dev@olingo.apache.org,
>>otherwise we have so sync the discussion between mailing
>>list/blog/forum
>>
>>On http://olingo.apache.org/support.html is information of how to join
>>dev@olingo.apache.org. Any interested developer can join.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Sven
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
>>Sent: Donnerstag, 24. Juli 2014 09:56
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
>>
>>Thanks Sven! Ideally we should consider getting input from the larger
>>OData community. The current Olingo community is mostly composed of
>>members of the TC, which I think biases the discussion somewhat. Is
>>there a way to extend the call for input to the full OData community?
>>Maybe we could put a blog post up on OData.org and send a mail to the
>>main OData DL?
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Kobler-Morris, Sven [mailto:sven.kobler-morris@sap.com]
>>Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 3:30 PM
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
>>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>this seems to be a valid point. So I cancelled the vote and we can do
>>further discussions on this.
>>From my current point of view ODataJS makes also sense as a name
>>because it is more releated to "OData" then "Olingo" and will show
>>better up in Search results ( as Yi mentioned).
>>
>>So please free discuss this here. There will be a new Vote on this
>>after the discussion.
>>
>>regards,
>>Sven
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Yi Ding [mailto:yiding@microsoft.com]
>>Sent: Donnerstag, 24. Juli 2014 08:20
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
>>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>I would propose that we reconsider using the name OData.JS or ODataJS.
>>OlingoJS certainly got majority of the votes but the number of votes
>>is small (only 6 votes).
>>
>>This JavaScript client library for OData is the core client library
>>for JavaScript mainly developed by sponsors of the TC of OASIS for
>>OData (at least this first version), so it qualifies as an official
>>JavaScript library of OData. Having OData.JS or ODataJS as its name
>>will vastly increase the possibility that users will turn to our
>>library as the first choice when he searches on the internet for
>>"OData JavaScript library"
>>and names like "OData.js", "Breeze.js", "JayData", etc. show up at the
>>same time. Using OlingoJS will likely to cause brand dilution. Apache
>>Olingo as the project name is totally respected but having OData as
>>part of the library name would also be very beneficial.
>>
>>It would be really helpful if people voted on OlingoJS can shed light
>>on your reasons for this choice so that we can discuss about it.
>>
>>Best,
>>Yi
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Kobler-Morris, Sven [mailto:sven.kobler-morris@sap.com]
>>Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 11:02 PM
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: Java Script library Name voting result
>>
>>Hi,
>>
>>for the name the majority is for "OlingoJS".
>>
>>So we use OlingoJS as name.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Sven
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: V.A, Chandan [mailto:chandan.v.a@sap.com]
>>Sent: Montag, 21. Juli 2014 14:32
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: RE: [VOTE] Java Script library Name
>>
>>OlingoJS +1
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Kind Regards
>>Chandan VA
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Kobler-Morris, Sven [mailto:sven.kobler-morris@sap.com]
>>Sent: Monday, July 21, 2014 2:19 PM
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: [VOTE] Java Script library Name
>>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>below is a list of collected names for the Java Script OData client
>>library which makes sense from our point of view. For voting please ad
>>a
>>+1 behind your favorite choice.
>>
>>1. datajs
>>2. OlingoJS
>>
>>3. ODataJS
>>
>>4. Olingo.OData.JS
>>
>>
>>regards,
>>Sven
>
RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Posted by Mark Stafford <ma...@microsoft.com>.
I believe per our discussion that would be okay. Our internal legal counsel did sign off on names without mention of "Olingo" but they definitely feel a lot more comfortable if "Olingo" is in the name as it puts the emphasis somewhere else. From most to least comfortable, this is how our legal sees the usage of "OData" in the release artifact names:
- Olingo JavaScript Client for OData v4: Even if were clear that Microsoft intended to enforce a trademark on the name OData, this usage would still be okay - it's like saying SAP client for Excel. Since there's no other way to say it and usage of the trademark isn't a key part of the name, we would have little to no ability to call this a trademark violation.
- Olingo OData v4 JavaScript client (or something like Olingo OData.js): Our legal counsel felt that this was even better than the name I explicitly got permission to recommend since it appears to hinge more on Olingo than OData.
- OData.js (or some variant, such as OData Client for JavaScript): Legal approved this with the contingency that we follow up with the OData TC to ensure that these are really libraries the TC would endorse.
Given that we do have approval for any of the above, my personal opinion is that Olingo ODataJS and Olingo ODataJava combines the best attributes of OData branding, Olingo branding, and making Microsoft legal happy. Other alternatives would be ODataJS and ODataJava (still good but our legal is a little less happy and we lose the Olingo brand) or OlingoJS for OData v4 or something like that.
Thanks,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Amend, Christian [mailto:christian.amend@sap.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2014 4:28 PM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi Mark,
thanks for the information!
Is my assumption correct that this also means we can use ODataJS and ODataJava as the artifact names? If yes I think we could go ahead and start another vote on the mailing list.
Best Regards,
Christian
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Dienstag, 19. August 2014 08:46
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Cc: Yi Ding; Challen He
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Yes, sorry, the name was exemplary. We would presumably propose each of those names for the relevant clients.
-----Original Message-----
From: Kobler-Morris, Sven [mailto:sven.kobler-morris@sap.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 2:28 PM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Cc: Yi Ding; Challen He
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hello Mark,
thanks for that information.
Think you mean "Olingo OData Client for Java Script" instead of "Olingo OData Client for Java" because in the title you talk about the Java Script library. Correkt?
Regards,
Sven
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Dienstag, 19. August 2014 03:35
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Wow, I am incredibly sorry that this took so long to resolve, but I do have resolution. Again, thank you for making an issue of this as there were more legal questions than I would have thought with the name "OData".
We have been cleared by our legal and Mike Pizzo from the TC to suggest "Olingo OData Client for Java" or some variant of that. We can certainly still include just "Olingo Java" etc in the vote, my main concern was getting at least one name with "OData" directly in the title.
I also did some thinking about other possible mitigations when things were looking particularly grim and I think we could also do something on OData.org to highlight these libraries, so at the end of the day I'm not quite as concerned as I was when we first addressed this issue.
So to wrap this up, THANK YOU to all of your for your patience and hearing me out, and I think we are cleared to vote again.
Thanks,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Amend, Christian [mailto:christian.amend@sap.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 6, 2014 8:22 PM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi Mark,
is there an estimated time when you could provide the summary?
Thanks & Best Regards,
Christian
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Mittwoch, 30. Juli 2014 16:34
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Cc: Handl, Ralf
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Sorry, Christian, thanks for the ping. There was an internal thread going on and I have relayed the ping to get a summary out to you. I hope to send that later today PST.
Thanks,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Amend, Christian [mailto:christian.amend@sap.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 7:21 AM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Cc: Handl, Ralf
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi everyone,
is there an update regarding the naming? If we could resolve this we can have another vote.
Best Regards,
Christian
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Freitag, 25. Juli 2014 16:54
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
I've reached out to our legal and a couple key members of the TC for comment, but a couple of preliminary comments (don't treat these as legal advice):
* We granted the logo to OASIS with the intention that it be made more available, not less. Specifically, we wanted SAP to be able to use it without having to worry about legal restrictions. So the new restrictions that have been placed on it really confuse me.
* The text OData is separate from the OData icon, so I'm not sure that guidance applies to names of libraries.
-----Original Message-----
From: Amend, Christian [mailto:christian.amend@sap.com]
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 10:31 PM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi,
I checked the OData.org website and found this entry from May 23th, 2014:
You MAY NOT use the OData Icon:
- As the name or logo of any product or software application.
-As an element of any other icon, logo, trademark, or service mark.
-In any manner that expresses or implies an affiliation with or endorsement by OASIS, OData.org, or any other party, absent a separate written agreement with an authorized licensor of the OData mark.
This is a blocker right? Can this be changed by the OData Committee? WDYT?
Best Regards,
Christian
Source: http://www.odata.org/documentation/odata-icon-usage-guidelines/
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Freitag, 25. Juli 2014 10:44
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Same here. Ralf, would you be able to clarify any potential trademark issues on behalf of OASIS? Or do we need to e-mail them per https://www.oasis-open.org/policies-guidelines/trademark?
Thanks,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Amend, Christian [mailto:christian.amend@sap.com]
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 3:48 PM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi,
I also like the idea of having OData in the Artifact name and this option should definitely be in the next vote once this discussion is over. But I would also like to have the trademark issue resolved beforehand and made part of this mail thread to make sure we are not violating any trademarks.
Maybe the people of the OData OASIS community could give their input on this and we could ask the people from Apache who specialize in branding what they can find. Unfortunately I am not an expert on this topic so I am very grateful for any advice on how to make sure we have no issues in the future there.
Best Regards,
Christian
-----Original Message-----
From: Handl, Ralf [mailto:ralf.handl@sap.com]
Sent: Freitag, 25. Juli 2014 09:11
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi all,
I like Christian's proposal of having just "OData" in the artifact names and reserve "Olingo" for the project name. In formal communication people can use the "fully qualified" name "Apache Olingo ODataXxx" (project name plus artifact name), and in informal communication the short names "ODataXxx" (artifact name only).
Good discussion!
--Ralf
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Friday, 25. July 2014 00:32
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Christian,
I have absolutely no objection to your suggestions below (and I appreciate the extra background information). I really do like the Apache project naming patterns and I support Olingo for the project name. I am exclusively focused on the release artifacts and it sounds like there's potential to keep the Apache project name but have a release artifact name that enables new OData-ites to find libraries easily.
Java and JavaScript are clearly the two dominant languages out there for most developers. Both have well-known package management release channels that (like .NET) don't require developers to know anything more than what technology they want to work with. Those release channels are where we really need to make it clear what the Olingo project is producing. (Because given a choice between OData4J and OlingoJava, my guess is that people will gravitate toward the former. At least ODataJava or a similar alternative will force them to stop and evaluate long enough to form a clearer picture.)
And again, thank you for your understanding. I fully recognize that the worst possible way to join a community is to barge in shouting, "DO IT MY WAY." It could easily feel like that's what I'm doing, but at the risk of repeating myself ad nauseum, my exclusive goal here is to make it as easy as possible for that new OData developer to find the best library for her JavaScript or Java application.
Thanks,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Amend, Christian [mailto:christian.amend@sap.com]
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 12:45 AM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi Mark,
I completely understand your concerns and I too agree that making a connection between Olingo and OData is not something which comes naturally.
Maybe it helps if I explain what we thought when this project first started here at Apache during incubation:
We had to decide for a name for this project. At first we thought of something like OData Java library or JavaOData. We decided against that for the following reasons:
1. There was already an open source project called OData4J and we wanted to prevent any confusion between the two projects.
2. The Apache trademark rules. We couldn`t take OData into the project name because it was not clear who is holding the trademarks. At that time I think it was Microsoft but the OASIS standard was on its way. Basically it was not clear enough and we wanted to start so we chose a name which had nothing to do with OData.
These were concerns which led to the name Olingo. But this is only the name for this project but not necessarily the name of the artifacts we release. Maybe we made a mistake not calling the release artifact OlingoJava but this is something we could change with the first V4 Java release.
So when we voted for the artifact name I voted for OlingoJS because I thought it fit well and it would allow for future implementations like maybe OlingoC++ or OlingoJava. I also had the hope that enough traffic on websites and blogposts would make it easier for people searching on the web to find Olingo if there are enough posts linking OData and Olingo together.
If trademark is out of the question I could also think of calling our release artifacts ODataJava and ODataJS. But this would not change the name of this project which would still be Olingo. So when someone talks about this project on a blog he would say: "Apache Olingo ODataJava" or "Apache Olingo ODataJS" but inside a maven dependency it would say ODataJava as an artifact name. WDYT?
About the statement from Florian I think that as our former mentor during incubation he just wanted to make clear that from an Apache point of view only PMC members have binding votes and these votes have to be cast on the dev list. This is just the Apache way of things. Of course it would be irresponsible to ignore any votes/opinions from the broader OData community which is using our library. But this is the reason we are still discussing this and have not gone ahead and changed the name.
Best Regards,
Christian
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Donnerstag, 24. Juli 2014 17:29
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
<merged threads>
WRT trademarks, a couple of thoughts:
* Trademarks are typically regional and I don't see filings for either OData or Olingo at http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=searchss&state=4809:lege0l.1.1.
* I believe Microsoft LCA would say that we've granted whatever rights we might have had to the OData "brand" to OASIS. I worked hard with LCA to turn over the rights to the OData logo to them.
I will preface my comments by saying that I am doing my best to protect the OData community, not diminish the Olingo community or brand. I have been a part of the OData community since I joined Microsoft over three years ago.
I strongly believe that we all are part of a bigger community. I fully recognize that this is comparatively unique for Apache projects. Many (probably most) Apache projects are fully unique and innovative. However, I think it's an enormous loss if Olingo tries to fit that same mold - Olingo is part of something bigger and better than it will ever be on its own. OData is a protocol designed to make it easy to interchange data. The whole point of OData is to be ONE community, unified between a set of best-practice conventions for implementing RESTful APIs. Introducing alternative brands just dilutes what we currently have and in my opinion would be a great loss for the community at large.
I love Apache's ability to come up with unique and catchy names but there is something more important at stake here. We should make it EASY for people to find the reference OData JavaScript and Java libraries. A new OData user should not have to figure out that - oh, hey - Olingo.JS does happen to be the reference implementation supported by members of the OData TC. The worst part about this is that it forces the OData community to context switch. What happens when they need a C++ or .NET client? Will they assume that there isn't one because Olingo.Cpp doesn't exist?
I fully admit that we messed up on the first name of the JavaScript client. DataJS was a bad name too. We have internal threads dating back well over a year about how we should unify the branding of these clients. We have done this with the .NET client, we are doing it with the C++ client, we did it with the mistake-of-a client we released for iOS (not proud of that one), and we would have done it with the JavaScript client if we hadn't used it to seed this project.
We don't want to put the Microsoft brand on the clients we are sponsoring, we want to put the OData brand on them. The fact that they're produced by Microsoft is interesting but incidental. We sincerely hope that you feel the same way.
So to be explicitly clear, for the sake of the OData community as a whole I am humbly asking for the names OData.JS or OData Client for JavaScript or something similar, and a name that follows the same pattern for the Java client. I do think the server is more negotiable, but even there we've branded our flagship .NET server "ASP.NET Web API OData" (I know, I know... it's Microsoft) and the C++ server will also have "OData" featured prominently in the name. I don't want this to come across the wrong way, but please be part of the larger community, not a distinct community.
Thanks for hearing me out,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Florian Müller [mailto:fmui@apache.org]
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 10:50 PM
To: dev; Mark Stafford
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi Mark,
A vote on the name of a sub project of an Apache project has to happen on an Apache mailing list. Votes of PMC members are bindings. Votes from others are welcome, but not binding. That is not negotiable.
Ideally, the discussion should also take place on an Apache mailing list to keep a record of the discussion.
Input from outside is always appreciated, but the PMC members make the final decision.
- Florian
-----Original Message-----
From: Bolz, Michael [mailto:michael.bolz@sap.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 10:27 PM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: Re: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi together,
IMHO the Odata community can also discuss about naming and give suggestions but at the end the decision has to be on the "Olingo Dev Mailinglist <de...@olingo.apache.org>" by the PMC Members.
To the naming, I like it to have all libraries within Apache Olingo the "Olingo" part in their name which is the case for "Olingo.JS".
But I can understand and agree with the argument that if someone search for "odata javascript" he would find better results if the name is "OData.JS".
Beside of the points above, the trademark for "Olingo" is owned by Apache but who owns the trademark for "OData"?
Could we name it "OData.JS" without getting trouble about the trademark?
Kind regards,
Michael
On 24.07.14 12:05, "Mark Stafford" <ma...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>This seems reasonable and it was on my to-read list so thanks for
>pushing on the issue. I think those rules probably work very well for
>most Apache projects and will probably work very well for the vast
>majority of the issues the Olingo community will be voting on. But we
>need to remember that this is a reasonably unique project. It is part
>of a much larger community. We obviously will not be blogging on
>odata.org about code changes in these libraries. But for meta questions
>I think it absolutely makes sense to ask the larger community. This
>would include things like names, moving projects around, relative priorities of projects, etc.
>
>Thanks,
>Mark
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Klevenz, Stephan [mailto:stephan.klevenz@sap.com]
>Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 4:49 PM
>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>Subject: Re: Java Script library Name voting result
>
>Hi all,
>
>Please have a look at [1] so that we have a common understanding of the
>Apache voting process.
>
>I don't want to stress this to much. We are having a healthy discussion
>and I am pretty sure that we get a consensus. After that we can do a
>new vote.
>
>Regards,
>Stephan
>
>[1] http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html
>
>
>
>
>On 24.07.14 10:29, "Mark Stafford" <ma...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
>>I'm not asking us to exclude dev@olingo.apache.org, just asking to
>>include a larger community. As far as I can tell there's less than 20
>>members on this mailing list and most of us work for Microsoft or SAP
>>so it's not a good place to get feedback on something as visible as
>>the name of the library. By contrast odata.org had 61,000 unique
>>visitors in June.
>>We certainly won't get responses from that many people, but I'd hope
>>we can get a voting result that includes more than six votes from two
>>companies. That's not a very representative sample.
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Kobler-Morris, Sven [mailto:sven.kobler-morris@sap.com]
>>Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 4:02 PM
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
>>
>>Hello Mark,
>>
>>think it is best if discussion took place on dev@olingo.apache.org,
>>otherwise we have so sync the discussion between mailing
>>list/blog/forum
>>
>>On http://olingo.apache.org/support.html is information of how to join
>>dev@olingo.apache.org. Any interested developer can join.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Sven
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
>>Sent: Donnerstag, 24. Juli 2014 09:56
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
>>
>>Thanks Sven! Ideally we should consider getting input from the larger
>>OData community. The current Olingo community is mostly composed of
>>members of the TC, which I think biases the discussion somewhat. Is
>>there a way to extend the call for input to the full OData community?
>>Maybe we could put a blog post up on OData.org and send a mail to the
>>main OData DL?
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Kobler-Morris, Sven [mailto:sven.kobler-morris@sap.com]
>>Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 3:30 PM
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
>>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>this seems to be a valid point. So I cancelled the vote and we can do
>>further discussions on this.
>>From my current point of view ODataJS makes also sense as a name
>>because it is more releated to "OData" then "Olingo" and will show
>>better up in Search results ( as Yi mentioned).
>>
>>So please free discuss this here. There will be a new Vote on this
>>after the discussion.
>>
>>regards,
>>Sven
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Yi Ding [mailto:yiding@microsoft.com]
>>Sent: Donnerstag, 24. Juli 2014 08:20
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
>>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>I would propose that we reconsider using the name OData.JS or ODataJS.
>>OlingoJS certainly got majority of the votes but the number of votes
>>is small (only 6 votes).
>>
>>This JavaScript client library for OData is the core client library
>>for JavaScript mainly developed by sponsors of the TC of OASIS for
>>OData (at least this first version), so it qualifies as an official
>>JavaScript library of OData. Having OData.JS or ODataJS as its name
>>will vastly increase the possibility that users will turn to our
>>library as the first choice when he searches on the internet for
>>"OData JavaScript library"
>>and names like "OData.js", "Breeze.js", "JayData", etc. show up at the
>>same time. Using OlingoJS will likely to cause brand dilution. Apache
>>Olingo as the project name is totally respected but having OData as
>>part of the library name would also be very beneficial.
>>
>>It would be really helpful if people voted on OlingoJS can shed light
>>on your reasons for this choice so that we can discuss about it.
>>
>>Best,
>>Yi
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Kobler-Morris, Sven [mailto:sven.kobler-morris@sap.com]
>>Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 11:02 PM
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: Java Script library Name voting result
>>
>>Hi,
>>
>>for the name the majority is for "OlingoJS".
>>
>>So we use OlingoJS as name.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Sven
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: V.A, Chandan [mailto:chandan.v.a@sap.com]
>>Sent: Montag, 21. Juli 2014 14:32
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: RE: [VOTE] Java Script library Name
>>
>>OlingoJS +1
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Kind Regards
>>Chandan VA
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Kobler-Morris, Sven [mailto:sven.kobler-morris@sap.com]
>>Sent: Monday, July 21, 2014 2:19 PM
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: [VOTE] Java Script library Name
>>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>below is a list of collected names for the Java Script OData client
>>library which makes sense from our point of view. For voting please ad
>>a
>>+1 behind your favorite choice.
>>
>>1. datajs
>>2. OlingoJS
>>
>>3. ODataJS
>>
>>4. Olingo.OData.JS
>>
>>
>>regards,
>>Sven
>
RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Posted by "Amend, Christian" <ch...@sap.com>.
Hi Mark,
thanks for the information!
Is my assumption correct that this also means we can use ODataJS and ODataJava as the artifact names? If yes I think we could go ahead and start another vote on the mailing list.
Best Regards,
Christian
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Dienstag, 19. August 2014 08:46
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Cc: Yi Ding; Challen He
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Yes, sorry, the name was exemplary. We would presumably propose each of those names for the relevant clients.
-----Original Message-----
From: Kobler-Morris, Sven [mailto:sven.kobler-morris@sap.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 2:28 PM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Cc: Yi Ding; Challen He
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hello Mark,
thanks for that information.
Think you mean "Olingo OData Client for Java Script" instead of "Olingo OData Client for Java" because in the title you talk about the Java Script library. Correkt?
Regards,
Sven
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Dienstag, 19. August 2014 03:35
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Wow, I am incredibly sorry that this took so long to resolve, but I do have resolution. Again, thank you for making an issue of this as there were more legal questions than I would have thought with the name "OData".
We have been cleared by our legal and Mike Pizzo from the TC to suggest "Olingo OData Client for Java" or some variant of that. We can certainly still include just "Olingo Java" etc in the vote, my main concern was getting at least one name with "OData" directly in the title.
I also did some thinking about other possible mitigations when things were looking particularly grim and I think we could also do something on OData.org to highlight these libraries, so at the end of the day I'm not quite as concerned as I was when we first addressed this issue.
So to wrap this up, THANK YOU to all of your for your patience and hearing me out, and I think we are cleared to vote again.
Thanks,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Amend, Christian [mailto:christian.amend@sap.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 6, 2014 8:22 PM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi Mark,
is there an estimated time when you could provide the summary?
Thanks & Best Regards,
Christian
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Mittwoch, 30. Juli 2014 16:34
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Cc: Handl, Ralf
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Sorry, Christian, thanks for the ping. There was an internal thread going on and I have relayed the ping to get a summary out to you. I hope to send that later today PST.
Thanks,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Amend, Christian [mailto:christian.amend@sap.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 7:21 AM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Cc: Handl, Ralf
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi everyone,
is there an update regarding the naming? If we could resolve this we can have another vote.
Best Regards,
Christian
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Freitag, 25. Juli 2014 16:54
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
I've reached out to our legal and a couple key members of the TC for comment, but a couple of preliminary comments (don't treat these as legal advice):
* We granted the logo to OASIS with the intention that it be made more available, not less. Specifically, we wanted SAP to be able to use it without having to worry about legal restrictions. So the new restrictions that have been placed on it really confuse me.
* The text OData is separate from the OData icon, so I'm not sure that guidance applies to names of libraries.
-----Original Message-----
From: Amend, Christian [mailto:christian.amend@sap.com]
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 10:31 PM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi,
I checked the OData.org website and found this entry from May 23th, 2014:
You MAY NOT use the OData Icon:
- As the name or logo of any product or software application.
-As an element of any other icon, logo, trademark, or service mark.
-In any manner that expresses or implies an affiliation with or endorsement by OASIS, OData.org, or any other party, absent a separate written agreement with an authorized licensor of the OData mark.
This is a blocker right? Can this be changed by the OData Committee? WDYT?
Best Regards,
Christian
Source: http://www.odata.org/documentation/odata-icon-usage-guidelines/
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Freitag, 25. Juli 2014 10:44
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Same here. Ralf, would you be able to clarify any potential trademark issues on behalf of OASIS? Or do we need to e-mail them per https://www.oasis-open.org/policies-guidelines/trademark?
Thanks,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Amend, Christian [mailto:christian.amend@sap.com]
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 3:48 PM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi,
I also like the idea of having OData in the Artifact name and this option should definitely be in the next vote once this discussion is over. But I would also like to have the trademark issue resolved beforehand and made part of this mail thread to make sure we are not violating any trademarks.
Maybe the people of the OData OASIS community could give their input on this and we could ask the people from Apache who specialize in branding what they can find. Unfortunately I am not an expert on this topic so I am very grateful for any advice on how to make sure we have no issues in the future there.
Best Regards,
Christian
-----Original Message-----
From: Handl, Ralf [mailto:ralf.handl@sap.com]
Sent: Freitag, 25. Juli 2014 09:11
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi all,
I like Christian's proposal of having just "OData" in the artifact names and reserve "Olingo" for the project name. In formal communication people can use the "fully qualified" name "Apache Olingo ODataXxx" (project name plus artifact name), and in informal communication the short names "ODataXxx" (artifact name only).
Good discussion!
--Ralf
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Friday, 25. July 2014 00:32
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Christian,
I have absolutely no objection to your suggestions below (and I appreciate the extra background information). I really do like the Apache project naming patterns and I support Olingo for the project name. I am exclusively focused on the release artifacts and it sounds like there's potential to keep the Apache project name but have a release artifact name that enables new OData-ites to find libraries easily.
Java and JavaScript are clearly the two dominant languages out there for most developers. Both have well-known package management release channels that (like .NET) don't require developers to know anything more than what technology they want to work with. Those release channels are where we really need to make it clear what the Olingo project is producing. (Because given a choice between OData4J and OlingoJava, my guess is that people will gravitate toward the former. At least ODataJava or a similar alternative will force them to stop and evaluate long enough to form a clearer picture.)
And again, thank you for your understanding. I fully recognize that the worst possible way to join a community is to barge in shouting, "DO IT MY WAY." It could easily feel like that's what I'm doing, but at the risk of repeating myself ad nauseum, my exclusive goal here is to make it as easy as possible for that new OData developer to find the best library for her JavaScript or Java application.
Thanks,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Amend, Christian [mailto:christian.amend@sap.com]
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 12:45 AM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi Mark,
I completely understand your concerns and I too agree that making a connection between Olingo and OData is not something which comes naturally.
Maybe it helps if I explain what we thought when this project first started here at Apache during incubation:
We had to decide for a name for this project. At first we thought of something like OData Java library or JavaOData. We decided against that for the following reasons:
1. There was already an open source project called OData4J and we wanted to prevent any confusion between the two projects.
2. The Apache trademark rules. We couldn`t take OData into the project name because it was not clear who is holding the trademarks. At that time I think it was Microsoft but the OASIS standard was on its way. Basically it was not clear enough and we wanted to start so we chose a name which had nothing to do with OData.
These were concerns which led to the name Olingo. But this is only the name for this project but not necessarily the name of the artifacts we release. Maybe we made a mistake not calling the release artifact OlingoJava but this is something we could change with the first V4 Java release.
So when we voted for the artifact name I voted for OlingoJS because I thought it fit well and it would allow for future implementations like maybe OlingoC++ or OlingoJava. I also had the hope that enough traffic on websites and blogposts would make it easier for people searching on the web to find Olingo if there are enough posts linking OData and Olingo together.
If trademark is out of the question I could also think of calling our release artifacts ODataJava and ODataJS. But this would not change the name of this project which would still be Olingo. So when someone talks about this project on a blog he would say: "Apache Olingo ODataJava" or "Apache Olingo ODataJS" but inside a maven dependency it would say ODataJava as an artifact name. WDYT?
About the statement from Florian I think that as our former mentor during incubation he just wanted to make clear that from an Apache point of view only PMC members have binding votes and these votes have to be cast on the dev list. This is just the Apache way of things. Of course it would be irresponsible to ignore any votes/opinions from the broader OData community which is using our library. But this is the reason we are still discussing this and have not gone ahead and changed the name.
Best Regards,
Christian
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Donnerstag, 24. Juli 2014 17:29
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
<merged threads>
WRT trademarks, a couple of thoughts:
* Trademarks are typically regional and I don't see filings for either OData or Olingo at http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=searchss&state=4809:lege0l.1.1.
* I believe Microsoft LCA would say that we've granted whatever rights we might have had to the OData "brand" to OASIS. I worked hard with LCA to turn over the rights to the OData logo to them.
I will preface my comments by saying that I am doing my best to protect the OData community, not diminish the Olingo community or brand. I have been a part of the OData community since I joined Microsoft over three years ago.
I strongly believe that we all are part of a bigger community. I fully recognize that this is comparatively unique for Apache projects. Many (probably most) Apache projects are fully unique and innovative. However, I think it's an enormous loss if Olingo tries to fit that same mold - Olingo is part of something bigger and better than it will ever be on its own. OData is a protocol designed to make it easy to interchange data. The whole point of OData is to be ONE community, unified between a set of best-practice conventions for implementing RESTful APIs. Introducing alternative brands just dilutes what we currently have and in my opinion would be a great loss for the community at large.
I love Apache's ability to come up with unique and catchy names but there is something more important at stake here. We should make it EASY for people to find the reference OData JavaScript and Java libraries. A new OData user should not have to figure out that - oh, hey - Olingo.JS does happen to be the reference implementation supported by members of the OData TC. The worst part about this is that it forces the OData community to context switch. What happens when they need a C++ or .NET client? Will they assume that there isn't one because Olingo.Cpp doesn't exist?
I fully admit that we messed up on the first name of the JavaScript client. DataJS was a bad name too. We have internal threads dating back well over a year about how we should unify the branding of these clients. We have done this with the .NET client, we are doing it with the C++ client, we did it with the mistake-of-a client we released for iOS (not proud of that one), and we would have done it with the JavaScript client if we hadn't used it to seed this project.
We don't want to put the Microsoft brand on the clients we are sponsoring, we want to put the OData brand on them. The fact that they're produced by Microsoft is interesting but incidental. We sincerely hope that you feel the same way.
So to be explicitly clear, for the sake of the OData community as a whole I am humbly asking for the names OData.JS or OData Client for JavaScript or something similar, and a name that follows the same pattern for the Java client. I do think the server is more negotiable, but even there we've branded our flagship .NET server "ASP.NET Web API OData" (I know, I know... it's Microsoft) and the C++ server will also have "OData" featured prominently in the name. I don't want this to come across the wrong way, but please be part of the larger community, not a distinct community.
Thanks for hearing me out,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Florian Müller [mailto:fmui@apache.org]
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 10:50 PM
To: dev; Mark Stafford
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi Mark,
A vote on the name of a sub project of an Apache project has to happen on an Apache mailing list. Votes of PMC members are bindings. Votes from others are welcome, but not binding. That is not negotiable.
Ideally, the discussion should also take place on an Apache mailing list to keep a record of the discussion.
Input from outside is always appreciated, but the PMC members make the final decision.
- Florian
-----Original Message-----
From: Bolz, Michael [mailto:michael.bolz@sap.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 10:27 PM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: Re: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi together,
IMHO the Odata community can also discuss about naming and give suggestions but at the end the decision has to be on the "Olingo Dev Mailinglist <de...@olingo.apache.org>" by the PMC Members.
To the naming, I like it to have all libraries within Apache Olingo the "Olingo" part in their name which is the case for "Olingo.JS".
But I can understand and agree with the argument that if someone search for "odata javascript" he would find better results if the name is "OData.JS".
Beside of the points above, the trademark for "Olingo" is owned by Apache but who owns the trademark for "OData"?
Could we name it "OData.JS" without getting trouble about the trademark?
Kind regards,
Michael
On 24.07.14 12:05, "Mark Stafford" <ma...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>This seems reasonable and it was on my to-read list so thanks for
>pushing on the issue. I think those rules probably work very well for
>most Apache projects and will probably work very well for the vast
>majority of the issues the Olingo community will be voting on. But we
>need to remember that this is a reasonably unique project. It is part
>of a much larger community. We obviously will not be blogging on
>odata.org about code changes in these libraries. But for meta questions
>I think it absolutely makes sense to ask the larger community. This
>would include things like names, moving projects around, relative priorities of projects, etc.
>
>Thanks,
>Mark
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Klevenz, Stephan [mailto:stephan.klevenz@sap.com]
>Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 4:49 PM
>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>Subject: Re: Java Script library Name voting result
>
>Hi all,
>
>Please have a look at [1] so that we have a common understanding of the
>Apache voting process.
>
>I don't want to stress this to much. We are having a healthy discussion
>and I am pretty sure that we get a consensus. After that we can do a
>new vote.
>
>Regards,
>Stephan
>
>[1] http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html
>
>
>
>
>On 24.07.14 10:29, "Mark Stafford" <ma...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
>>I'm not asking us to exclude dev@olingo.apache.org, just asking to
>>include a larger community. As far as I can tell there's less than 20
>>members on this mailing list and most of us work for Microsoft or SAP
>>so it's not a good place to get feedback on something as visible as
>>the name of the library. By contrast odata.org had 61,000 unique
>>visitors in June.
>>We certainly won't get responses from that many people, but I'd hope
>>we can get a voting result that includes more than six votes from two
>>companies. That's not a very representative sample.
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Kobler-Morris, Sven [mailto:sven.kobler-morris@sap.com]
>>Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 4:02 PM
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
>>
>>Hello Mark,
>>
>>think it is best if discussion took place on dev@olingo.apache.org,
>>otherwise we have so sync the discussion between mailing
>>list/blog/forum
>>
>>On http://olingo.apache.org/support.html is information of how to join
>>dev@olingo.apache.org. Any interested developer can join.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Sven
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
>>Sent: Donnerstag, 24. Juli 2014 09:56
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
>>
>>Thanks Sven! Ideally we should consider getting input from the larger
>>OData community. The current Olingo community is mostly composed of
>>members of the TC, which I think biases the discussion somewhat. Is
>>there a way to extend the call for input to the full OData community?
>>Maybe we could put a blog post up on OData.org and send a mail to the
>>main OData DL?
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Kobler-Morris, Sven [mailto:sven.kobler-morris@sap.com]
>>Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 3:30 PM
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
>>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>this seems to be a valid point. So I cancelled the vote and we can do
>>further discussions on this.
>>From my current point of view ODataJS makes also sense as a name
>>because it is more releated to "OData" then "Olingo" and will show
>>better up in Search results ( as Yi mentioned).
>>
>>So please free discuss this here. There will be a new Vote on this
>>after the discussion.
>>
>>regards,
>>Sven
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Yi Ding [mailto:yiding@microsoft.com]
>>Sent: Donnerstag, 24. Juli 2014 08:20
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
>>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>I would propose that we reconsider using the name OData.JS or ODataJS.
>>OlingoJS certainly got majority of the votes but the number of votes
>>is small (only 6 votes).
>>
>>This JavaScript client library for OData is the core client library
>>for JavaScript mainly developed by sponsors of the TC of OASIS for
>>OData (at least this first version), so it qualifies as an official
>>JavaScript library of OData. Having OData.JS or ODataJS as its name
>>will vastly increase the possibility that users will turn to our
>>library as the first choice when he searches on the internet for
>>"OData JavaScript library"
>>and names like "OData.js", "Breeze.js", "JayData", etc. show up at the
>>same time. Using OlingoJS will likely to cause brand dilution. Apache
>>Olingo as the project name is totally respected but having OData as
>>part of the library name would also be very beneficial.
>>
>>It would be really helpful if people voted on OlingoJS can shed light
>>on your reasons for this choice so that we can discuss about it.
>>
>>Best,
>>Yi
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Kobler-Morris, Sven [mailto:sven.kobler-morris@sap.com]
>>Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 11:02 PM
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: Java Script library Name voting result
>>
>>Hi,
>>
>>for the name the majority is for "OlingoJS".
>>
>>So we use OlingoJS as name.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Sven
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: V.A, Chandan [mailto:chandan.v.a@sap.com]
>>Sent: Montag, 21. Juli 2014 14:32
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: RE: [VOTE] Java Script library Name
>>
>>OlingoJS +1
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Kind Regards
>>Chandan VA
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Kobler-Morris, Sven [mailto:sven.kobler-morris@sap.com]
>>Sent: Monday, July 21, 2014 2:19 PM
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: [VOTE] Java Script library Name
>>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>below is a list of collected names for the Java Script OData client
>>library which makes sense from our point of view. For voting please ad
>>a
>>+1 behind your favorite choice.
>>
>>1. datajs
>>2. OlingoJS
>>
>>3. ODataJS
>>
>>4. Olingo.OData.JS
>>
>>
>>regards,
>>Sven
>
RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Posted by Mark Stafford <ma...@microsoft.com>.
Yes, sorry, the name was exemplary. We would presumably propose each of those names for the relevant clients.
-----Original Message-----
From: Kobler-Morris, Sven [mailto:sven.kobler-morris@sap.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 2:28 PM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Cc: Yi Ding; Challen He
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hello Mark,
thanks for that information.
Think you mean "Olingo OData Client for Java Script" instead of "Olingo OData Client for Java" because in the title you talk about the Java Script library. Correkt?
Regards,
Sven
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Dienstag, 19. August 2014 03:35
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Wow, I am incredibly sorry that this took so long to resolve, but I do have resolution. Again, thank you for making an issue of this as there were more legal questions than I would have thought with the name "OData".
We have been cleared by our legal and Mike Pizzo from the TC to suggest "Olingo OData Client for Java" or some variant of that. We can certainly still include just "Olingo Java" etc in the vote, my main concern was getting at least one name with "OData" directly in the title.
I also did some thinking about other possible mitigations when things were looking particularly grim and I think we could also do something on OData.org to highlight these libraries, so at the end of the day I'm not quite as concerned as I was when we first addressed this issue.
So to wrap this up, THANK YOU to all of your for your patience and hearing me out, and I think we are cleared to vote again.
Thanks,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Amend, Christian [mailto:christian.amend@sap.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 6, 2014 8:22 PM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi Mark,
is there an estimated time when you could provide the summary?
Thanks & Best Regards,
Christian
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Mittwoch, 30. Juli 2014 16:34
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Cc: Handl, Ralf
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Sorry, Christian, thanks for the ping. There was an internal thread going on and I have relayed the ping to get a summary out to you. I hope to send that later today PST.
Thanks,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Amend, Christian [mailto:christian.amend@sap.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 7:21 AM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Cc: Handl, Ralf
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi everyone,
is there an update regarding the naming? If we could resolve this we can have another vote.
Best Regards,
Christian
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Freitag, 25. Juli 2014 16:54
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
I've reached out to our legal and a couple key members of the TC for comment, but a couple of preliminary comments (don't treat these as legal advice):
* We granted the logo to OASIS with the intention that it be made more available, not less. Specifically, we wanted SAP to be able to use it without having to worry about legal restrictions. So the new restrictions that have been placed on it really confuse me.
* The text OData is separate from the OData icon, so I'm not sure that guidance applies to names of libraries.
-----Original Message-----
From: Amend, Christian [mailto:christian.amend@sap.com]
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 10:31 PM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi,
I checked the OData.org website and found this entry from May 23th, 2014:
You MAY NOT use the OData Icon:
- As the name or logo of any product or software application.
-As an element of any other icon, logo, trademark, or service mark.
-In any manner that expresses or implies an affiliation with or endorsement by OASIS, OData.org, or any other party, absent a separate written agreement with an authorized licensor of the OData mark.
This is a blocker right? Can this be changed by the OData Committee? WDYT?
Best Regards,
Christian
Source: http://www.odata.org/documentation/odata-icon-usage-guidelines/
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Freitag, 25. Juli 2014 10:44
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Same here. Ralf, would you be able to clarify any potential trademark issues on behalf of OASIS? Or do we need to e-mail them per https://www.oasis-open.org/policies-guidelines/trademark?
Thanks,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Amend, Christian [mailto:christian.amend@sap.com]
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 3:48 PM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi,
I also like the idea of having OData in the Artifact name and this option should definitely be in the next vote once this discussion is over. But I would also like to have the trademark issue resolved beforehand and made part of this mail thread to make sure we are not violating any trademarks.
Maybe the people of the OData OASIS community could give their input on this and we could ask the people from Apache who specialize in branding what they can find. Unfortunately I am not an expert on this topic so I am very grateful for any advice on how to make sure we have no issues in the future there.
Best Regards,
Christian
-----Original Message-----
From: Handl, Ralf [mailto:ralf.handl@sap.com]
Sent: Freitag, 25. Juli 2014 09:11
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi all,
I like Christian's proposal of having just "OData" in the artifact names and reserve "Olingo" for the project name. In formal communication people can use the "fully qualified" name "Apache Olingo ODataXxx" (project name plus artifact name), and in informal communication the short names "ODataXxx" (artifact name only).
Good discussion!
--Ralf
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Friday, 25. July 2014 00:32
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Christian,
I have absolutely no objection to your suggestions below (and I appreciate the extra background information). I really do like the Apache project naming patterns and I support Olingo for the project name. I am exclusively focused on the release artifacts and it sounds like there's potential to keep the Apache project name but have a release artifact name that enables new OData-ites to find libraries easily.
Java and JavaScript are clearly the two dominant languages out there for most developers. Both have well-known package management release channels that (like .NET) don't require developers to know anything more than what technology they want to work with. Those release channels are where we really need to make it clear what the Olingo project is producing. (Because given a choice between OData4J and OlingoJava, my guess is that people will gravitate toward the former. At least ODataJava or a similar alternative will force them to stop and evaluate long enough to form a clearer picture.)
And again, thank you for your understanding. I fully recognize that the worst possible way to join a community is to barge in shouting, "DO IT MY WAY." It could easily feel like that's what I'm doing, but at the risk of repeating myself ad nauseum, my exclusive goal here is to make it as easy as possible for that new OData developer to find the best library for her JavaScript or Java application.
Thanks,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Amend, Christian [mailto:christian.amend@sap.com]
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 12:45 AM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi Mark,
I completely understand your concerns and I too agree that making a connection between Olingo and OData is not something which comes naturally.
Maybe it helps if I explain what we thought when this project first started here at Apache during incubation:
We had to decide for a name for this project. At first we thought of something like OData Java library or JavaOData. We decided against that for the following reasons:
1. There was already an open source project called OData4J and we wanted to prevent any confusion between the two projects.
2. The Apache trademark rules. We couldn`t take OData into the project name because it was not clear who is holding the trademarks. At that time I think it was Microsoft but the OASIS standard was on its way. Basically it was not clear enough and we wanted to start so we chose a name which had nothing to do with OData.
These were concerns which led to the name Olingo. But this is only the name for this project but not necessarily the name of the artifacts we release. Maybe we made a mistake not calling the release artifact OlingoJava but this is something we could change with the first V4 Java release.
So when we voted for the artifact name I voted for OlingoJS because I thought it fit well and it would allow for future implementations like maybe OlingoC++ or OlingoJava. I also had the hope that enough traffic on websites and blogposts would make it easier for people searching on the web to find Olingo if there are enough posts linking OData and Olingo together.
If trademark is out of the question I could also think of calling our release artifacts ODataJava and ODataJS. But this would not change the name of this project which would still be Olingo. So when someone talks about this project on a blog he would say: "Apache Olingo ODataJava" or "Apache Olingo ODataJS" but inside a maven dependency it would say ODataJava as an artifact name. WDYT?
About the statement from Florian I think that as our former mentor during incubation he just wanted to make clear that from an Apache point of view only PMC members have binding votes and these votes have to be cast on the dev list. This is just the Apache way of things. Of course it would be irresponsible to ignore any votes/opinions from the broader OData community which is using our library. But this is the reason we are still discussing this and have not gone ahead and changed the name.
Best Regards,
Christian
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Donnerstag, 24. Juli 2014 17:29
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
<merged threads>
WRT trademarks, a couple of thoughts:
* Trademarks are typically regional and I don't see filings for either OData or Olingo at http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=searchss&state=4809:lege0l.1.1.
* I believe Microsoft LCA would say that we've granted whatever rights we might have had to the OData "brand" to OASIS. I worked hard with LCA to turn over the rights to the OData logo to them.
I will preface my comments by saying that I am doing my best to protect the OData community, not diminish the Olingo community or brand. I have been a part of the OData community since I joined Microsoft over three years ago.
I strongly believe that we all are part of a bigger community. I fully recognize that this is comparatively unique for Apache projects. Many (probably most) Apache projects are fully unique and innovative. However, I think it's an enormous loss if Olingo tries to fit that same mold - Olingo is part of something bigger and better than it will ever be on its own. OData is a protocol designed to make it easy to interchange data. The whole point of OData is to be ONE community, unified between a set of best-practice conventions for implementing RESTful APIs. Introducing alternative brands just dilutes what we currently have and in my opinion would be a great loss for the community at large.
I love Apache's ability to come up with unique and catchy names but there is something more important at stake here. We should make it EASY for people to find the reference OData JavaScript and Java libraries. A new OData user should not have to figure out that - oh, hey - Olingo.JS does happen to be the reference implementation supported by members of the OData TC. The worst part about this is that it forces the OData community to context switch. What happens when they need a C++ or .NET client? Will they assume that there isn't one because Olingo.Cpp doesn't exist?
I fully admit that we messed up on the first name of the JavaScript client. DataJS was a bad name too. We have internal threads dating back well over a year about how we should unify the branding of these clients. We have done this with the .NET client, we are doing it with the C++ client, we did it with the mistake-of-a client we released for iOS (not proud of that one), and we would have done it with the JavaScript client if we hadn't used it to seed this project.
We don't want to put the Microsoft brand on the clients we are sponsoring, we want to put the OData brand on them. The fact that they're produced by Microsoft is interesting but incidental. We sincerely hope that you feel the same way.
So to be explicitly clear, for the sake of the OData community as a whole I am humbly asking for the names OData.JS or OData Client for JavaScript or something similar, and a name that follows the same pattern for the Java client. I do think the server is more negotiable, but even there we've branded our flagship .NET server "ASP.NET Web API OData" (I know, I know... it's Microsoft) and the C++ server will also have "OData" featured prominently in the name. I don't want this to come across the wrong way, but please be part of the larger community, not a distinct community.
Thanks for hearing me out,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Florian Müller [mailto:fmui@apache.org]
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 10:50 PM
To: dev; Mark Stafford
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi Mark,
A vote on the name of a sub project of an Apache project has to happen on an Apache mailing list. Votes of PMC members are bindings. Votes from others are welcome, but not binding. That is not negotiable.
Ideally, the discussion should also take place on an Apache mailing list to keep a record of the discussion.
Input from outside is always appreciated, but the PMC members make the final decision.
- Florian
-----Original Message-----
From: Bolz, Michael [mailto:michael.bolz@sap.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 10:27 PM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: Re: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi together,
IMHO the Odata community can also discuss about naming and give suggestions but at the end the decision has to be on the "Olingo Dev Mailinglist <de...@olingo.apache.org>" by the PMC Members.
To the naming, I like it to have all libraries within Apache Olingo the "Olingo" part in their name which is the case for "Olingo.JS".
But I can understand and agree with the argument that if someone search for "odata javascript" he would find better results if the name is "OData.JS".
Beside of the points above, the trademark for "Olingo" is owned by Apache but who owns the trademark for "OData"?
Could we name it "OData.JS" without getting trouble about the trademark?
Kind regards,
Michael
On 24.07.14 12:05, "Mark Stafford" <ma...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>This seems reasonable and it was on my to-read list so thanks for
>pushing on the issue. I think those rules probably work very well for
>most Apache projects and will probably work very well for the vast
>majority of the issues the Olingo community will be voting on. But we
>need to remember that this is a reasonably unique project. It is part
>of a much larger community. We obviously will not be blogging on
>odata.org about code changes in these libraries. But for meta questions
>I think it absolutely makes sense to ask the larger community. This
>would include things like names, moving projects around, relative priorities of projects, etc.
>
>Thanks,
>Mark
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Klevenz, Stephan [mailto:stephan.klevenz@sap.com]
>Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 4:49 PM
>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>Subject: Re: Java Script library Name voting result
>
>Hi all,
>
>Please have a look at [1] so that we have a common understanding of the
>Apache voting process.
>
>I don't want to stress this to much. We are having a healthy discussion
>and I am pretty sure that we get a consensus. After that we can do a
>new vote.
>
>Regards,
>Stephan
>
>[1] http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html
>
>
>
>
>On 24.07.14 10:29, "Mark Stafford" <ma...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
>>I'm not asking us to exclude dev@olingo.apache.org, just asking to
>>include a larger community. As far as I can tell there's less than 20
>>members on this mailing list and most of us work for Microsoft or SAP
>>so it's not a good place to get feedback on something as visible as
>>the name of the library. By contrast odata.org had 61,000 unique
>>visitors in June.
>>We certainly won't get responses from that many people, but I'd hope
>>we can get a voting result that includes more than six votes from two
>>companies. That's not a very representative sample.
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Kobler-Morris, Sven [mailto:sven.kobler-morris@sap.com]
>>Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 4:02 PM
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
>>
>>Hello Mark,
>>
>>think it is best if discussion took place on dev@olingo.apache.org,
>>otherwise we have so sync the discussion between mailing
>>list/blog/forum
>>
>>On http://olingo.apache.org/support.html is information of how to join
>>dev@olingo.apache.org. Any interested developer can join.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Sven
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
>>Sent: Donnerstag, 24. Juli 2014 09:56
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
>>
>>Thanks Sven! Ideally we should consider getting input from the larger
>>OData community. The current Olingo community is mostly composed of
>>members of the TC, which I think biases the discussion somewhat. Is
>>there a way to extend the call for input to the full OData community?
>>Maybe we could put a blog post up on OData.org and send a mail to the
>>main OData DL?
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Kobler-Morris, Sven [mailto:sven.kobler-morris@sap.com]
>>Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 3:30 PM
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
>>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>this seems to be a valid point. So I cancelled the vote and we can do
>>further discussions on this.
>>From my current point of view ODataJS makes also sense as a name
>>because it is more releated to "OData" then "Olingo" and will show
>>better up in Search results ( as Yi mentioned).
>>
>>So please free discuss this here. There will be a new Vote on this
>>after the discussion.
>>
>>regards,
>>Sven
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Yi Ding [mailto:yiding@microsoft.com]
>>Sent: Donnerstag, 24. Juli 2014 08:20
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
>>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>I would propose that we reconsider using the name OData.JS or ODataJS.
>>OlingoJS certainly got majority of the votes but the number of votes
>>is small (only 6 votes).
>>
>>This JavaScript client library for OData is the core client library
>>for JavaScript mainly developed by sponsors of the TC of OASIS for
>>OData (at least this first version), so it qualifies as an official
>>JavaScript library of OData. Having OData.JS or ODataJS as its name
>>will vastly increase the possibility that users will turn to our
>>library as the first choice when he searches on the internet for
>>"OData JavaScript library"
>>and names like "OData.js", "Breeze.js", "JayData", etc. show up at the
>>same time. Using OlingoJS will likely to cause brand dilution. Apache
>>Olingo as the project name is totally respected but having OData as
>>part of the library name would also be very beneficial.
>>
>>It would be really helpful if people voted on OlingoJS can shed light
>>on your reasons for this choice so that we can discuss about it.
>>
>>Best,
>>Yi
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Kobler-Morris, Sven [mailto:sven.kobler-morris@sap.com]
>>Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 11:02 PM
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: Java Script library Name voting result
>>
>>Hi,
>>
>>for the name the majority is for "OlingoJS".
>>
>>So we use OlingoJS as name.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Sven
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: V.A, Chandan [mailto:chandan.v.a@sap.com]
>>Sent: Montag, 21. Juli 2014 14:32
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: RE: [VOTE] Java Script library Name
>>
>>OlingoJS +1
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Kind Regards
>>Chandan VA
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Kobler-Morris, Sven [mailto:sven.kobler-morris@sap.com]
>>Sent: Monday, July 21, 2014 2:19 PM
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: [VOTE] Java Script library Name
>>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>below is a list of collected names for the Java Script OData client
>>library which makes sense from our point of view. For voting please ad
>>a
>>+1 behind your favorite choice.
>>
>>1. datajs
>>2. OlingoJS
>>
>>3. ODataJS
>>
>>4. Olingo.OData.JS
>>
>>
>>regards,
>>Sven
>
RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Posted by "Kobler-Morris, Sven" <sv...@sap.com>.
Hello Mark,
thanks for that information.
Think you mean "Olingo OData Client for Java Script" instead of "Olingo OData Client for Java" because in the title you talk about the Java Script library. Correkt?
Regards,
Sven
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Dienstag, 19. August 2014 03:35
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Wow, I am incredibly sorry that this took so long to resolve, but I do have resolution. Again, thank you for making an issue of this as there were more legal questions than I would have thought with the name "OData".
We have been cleared by our legal and Mike Pizzo from the TC to suggest "Olingo OData Client for Java" or some variant of that. We can certainly still include just "Olingo Java" etc in the vote, my main concern was getting at least one name with "OData" directly in the title.
I also did some thinking about other possible mitigations when things were looking particularly grim and I think we could also do something on OData.org to highlight these libraries, so at the end of the day I'm not quite as concerned as I was when we first addressed this issue.
So to wrap this up, THANK YOU to all of your for your patience and hearing me out, and I think we are cleared to vote again.
Thanks,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Amend, Christian [mailto:christian.amend@sap.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 6, 2014 8:22 PM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi Mark,
is there an estimated time when you could provide the summary?
Thanks & Best Regards,
Christian
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Mittwoch, 30. Juli 2014 16:34
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Cc: Handl, Ralf
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Sorry, Christian, thanks for the ping. There was an internal thread going on and I have relayed the ping to get a summary out to you. I hope to send that later today PST.
Thanks,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Amend, Christian [mailto:christian.amend@sap.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 7:21 AM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Cc: Handl, Ralf
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi everyone,
is there an update regarding the naming? If we could resolve this we can have another vote.
Best Regards,
Christian
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Freitag, 25. Juli 2014 16:54
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
I've reached out to our legal and a couple key members of the TC for comment, but a couple of preliminary comments (don't treat these as legal advice):
* We granted the logo to OASIS with the intention that it be made more available, not less. Specifically, we wanted SAP to be able to use it without having to worry about legal restrictions. So the new restrictions that have been placed on it really confuse me.
* The text OData is separate from the OData icon, so I'm not sure that guidance applies to names of libraries.
-----Original Message-----
From: Amend, Christian [mailto:christian.amend@sap.com]
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 10:31 PM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi,
I checked the OData.org website and found this entry from May 23th, 2014:
You MAY NOT use the OData Icon:
- As the name or logo of any product or software application.
-As an element of any other icon, logo, trademark, or service mark.
-In any manner that expresses or implies an affiliation with or endorsement by OASIS, OData.org, or any other party, absent a separate written agreement with an authorized licensor of the OData mark.
This is a blocker right? Can this be changed by the OData Committee? WDYT?
Best Regards,
Christian
Source: http://www.odata.org/documentation/odata-icon-usage-guidelines/
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Freitag, 25. Juli 2014 10:44
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Same here. Ralf, would you be able to clarify any potential trademark issues on behalf of OASIS? Or do we need to e-mail them per https://www.oasis-open.org/policies-guidelines/trademark?
Thanks,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Amend, Christian [mailto:christian.amend@sap.com]
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 3:48 PM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi,
I also like the idea of having OData in the Artifact name and this option should definitely be in the next vote once this discussion is over. But I would also like to have the trademark issue resolved beforehand and made part of this mail thread to make sure we are not violating any trademarks.
Maybe the people of the OData OASIS community could give their input on this and we could ask the people from Apache who specialize in branding what they can find. Unfortunately I am not an expert on this topic so I am very grateful for any advice on how to make sure we have no issues in the future there.
Best Regards,
Christian
-----Original Message-----
From: Handl, Ralf [mailto:ralf.handl@sap.com]
Sent: Freitag, 25. Juli 2014 09:11
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi all,
I like Christian's proposal of having just "OData" in the artifact names and reserve "Olingo" for the project name. In formal communication people can use the "fully qualified" name "Apache Olingo ODataXxx" (project name plus artifact name), and in informal communication the short names "ODataXxx" (artifact name only).
Good discussion!
--Ralf
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Friday, 25. July 2014 00:32
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Christian,
I have absolutely no objection to your suggestions below (and I appreciate the extra background information). I really do like the Apache project naming patterns and I support Olingo for the project name. I am exclusively focused on the release artifacts and it sounds like there's potential to keep the Apache project name but have a release artifact name that enables new OData-ites to find libraries easily.
Java and JavaScript are clearly the two dominant languages out there for most developers. Both have well-known package management release channels that (like .NET) don't require developers to know anything more than what technology they want to work with. Those release channels are where we really need to make it clear what the Olingo project is producing. (Because given a choice between OData4J and OlingoJava, my guess is that people will gravitate toward the former. At least ODataJava or a similar alternative will force them to stop and evaluate long enough to form a clearer picture.)
And again, thank you for your understanding. I fully recognize that the worst possible way to join a community is to barge in shouting, "DO IT MY WAY." It could easily feel like that's what I'm doing, but at the risk of repeating myself ad nauseum, my exclusive goal here is to make it as easy as possible for that new OData developer to find the best library for her JavaScript or Java application.
Thanks,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Amend, Christian [mailto:christian.amend@sap.com]
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 12:45 AM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi Mark,
I completely understand your concerns and I too agree that making a connection between Olingo and OData is not something which comes naturally.
Maybe it helps if I explain what we thought when this project first started here at Apache during incubation:
We had to decide for a name for this project. At first we thought of something like OData Java library or JavaOData. We decided against that for the following reasons:
1. There was already an open source project called OData4J and we wanted to prevent any confusion between the two projects.
2. The Apache trademark rules. We couldn`t take OData into the project name because it was not clear who is holding the trademarks. At that time I think it was Microsoft but the OASIS standard was on its way. Basically it was not clear enough and we wanted to start so we chose a name which had nothing to do with OData.
These were concerns which led to the name Olingo. But this is only the name for this project but not necessarily the name of the artifacts we release. Maybe we made a mistake not calling the release artifact OlingoJava but this is something we could change with the first V4 Java release.
So when we voted for the artifact name I voted for OlingoJS because I thought it fit well and it would allow for future implementations like maybe OlingoC++ or OlingoJava. I also had the hope that enough traffic on websites and blogposts would make it easier for people searching on the web to find Olingo if there are enough posts linking OData and Olingo together.
If trademark is out of the question I could also think of calling our release artifacts ODataJava and ODataJS. But this would not change the name of this project which would still be Olingo. So when someone talks about this project on a blog he would say: "Apache Olingo ODataJava" or "Apache Olingo ODataJS" but inside a maven dependency it would say ODataJava as an artifact name. WDYT?
About the statement from Florian I think that as our former mentor during incubation he just wanted to make clear that from an Apache point of view only PMC members have binding votes and these votes have to be cast on the dev list. This is just the Apache way of things. Of course it would be irresponsible to ignore any votes/opinions from the broader OData community which is using our library. But this is the reason we are still discussing this and have not gone ahead and changed the name.
Best Regards,
Christian
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Donnerstag, 24. Juli 2014 17:29
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
<merged threads>
WRT trademarks, a couple of thoughts:
* Trademarks are typically regional and I don't see filings for either OData or Olingo at http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=searchss&state=4809:lege0l.1.1.
* I believe Microsoft LCA would say that we've granted whatever rights we might have had to the OData "brand" to OASIS. I worked hard with LCA to turn over the rights to the OData logo to them.
I will preface my comments by saying that I am doing my best to protect the OData community, not diminish the Olingo community or brand. I have been a part of the OData community since I joined Microsoft over three years ago.
I strongly believe that we all are part of a bigger community. I fully recognize that this is comparatively unique for Apache projects. Many (probably most) Apache projects are fully unique and innovative. However, I think it's an enormous loss if Olingo tries to fit that same mold - Olingo is part of something bigger and better than it will ever be on its own. OData is a protocol designed to make it easy to interchange data. The whole point of OData is to be ONE community, unified between a set of best-practice conventions for implementing RESTful APIs. Introducing alternative brands just dilutes what we currently have and in my opinion would be a great loss for the community at large.
I love Apache's ability to come up with unique and catchy names but there is something more important at stake here. We should make it EASY for people to find the reference OData JavaScript and Java libraries. A new OData user should not have to figure out that - oh, hey - Olingo.JS does happen to be the reference implementation supported by members of the OData TC. The worst part about this is that it forces the OData community to context switch. What happens when they need a C++ or .NET client? Will they assume that there isn't one because Olingo.Cpp doesn't exist?
I fully admit that we messed up on the first name of the JavaScript client. DataJS was a bad name too. We have internal threads dating back well over a year about how we should unify the branding of these clients. We have done this with the .NET client, we are doing it with the C++ client, we did it with the mistake-of-a client we released for iOS (not proud of that one), and we would have done it with the JavaScript client if we hadn't used it to seed this project.
We don't want to put the Microsoft brand on the clients we are sponsoring, we want to put the OData brand on them. The fact that they're produced by Microsoft is interesting but incidental. We sincerely hope that you feel the same way.
So to be explicitly clear, for the sake of the OData community as a whole I am humbly asking for the names OData.JS or OData Client for JavaScript or something similar, and a name that follows the same pattern for the Java client. I do think the server is more negotiable, but even there we've branded our flagship .NET server "ASP.NET Web API OData" (I know, I know... it's Microsoft) and the C++ server will also have "OData" featured prominently in the name. I don't want this to come across the wrong way, but please be part of the larger community, not a distinct community.
Thanks for hearing me out,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Florian Müller [mailto:fmui@apache.org]
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 10:50 PM
To: dev; Mark Stafford
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi Mark,
A vote on the name of a sub project of an Apache project has to happen on an Apache mailing list. Votes of PMC members are bindings. Votes from others are welcome, but not binding. That is not negotiable.
Ideally, the discussion should also take place on an Apache mailing list to keep a record of the discussion.
Input from outside is always appreciated, but the PMC members make the final decision.
- Florian
-----Original Message-----
From: Bolz, Michael [mailto:michael.bolz@sap.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 10:27 PM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: Re: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi together,
IMHO the Odata community can also discuss about naming and give suggestions but at the end the decision has to be on the "Olingo Dev Mailinglist <de...@olingo.apache.org>" by the PMC Members.
To the naming, I like it to have all libraries within Apache Olingo the "Olingo" part in their name which is the case for "Olingo.JS".
But I can understand and agree with the argument that if someone search for "odata javascript" he would find better results if the name is "OData.JS".
Beside of the points above, the trademark for "Olingo" is owned by Apache but who owns the trademark for "OData"?
Could we name it "OData.JS" without getting trouble about the trademark?
Kind regards,
Michael
On 24.07.14 12:05, "Mark Stafford" <ma...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>This seems reasonable and it was on my to-read list so thanks for
>pushing on the issue. I think those rules probably work very well for
>most Apache projects and will probably work very well for the vast
>majority of the issues the Olingo community will be voting on. But we
>need to remember that this is a reasonably unique project. It is part
>of a much larger community. We obviously will not be blogging on
>odata.org about code changes in these libraries. But for meta questions
>I think it absolutely makes sense to ask the larger community. This
>would include things like names, moving projects around, relative priorities of projects, etc.
>
>Thanks,
>Mark
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Klevenz, Stephan [mailto:stephan.klevenz@sap.com]
>Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 4:49 PM
>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>Subject: Re: Java Script library Name voting result
>
>Hi all,
>
>Please have a look at [1] so that we have a common understanding of the
>Apache voting process.
>
>I don't want to stress this to much. We are having a healthy discussion
>and I am pretty sure that we get a consensus. After that we can do a
>new vote.
>
>Regards,
>Stephan
>
>[1] http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html
>
>
>
>
>On 24.07.14 10:29, "Mark Stafford" <ma...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
>>I'm not asking us to exclude dev@olingo.apache.org, just asking to
>>include a larger community. As far as I can tell there's less than 20
>>members on this mailing list and most of us work for Microsoft or SAP
>>so it's not a good place to get feedback on something as visible as
>>the name of the library. By contrast odata.org had 61,000 unique
>>visitors in June.
>>We certainly won't get responses from that many people, but I'd hope
>>we can get a voting result that includes more than six votes from two
>>companies. That's not a very representative sample.
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Kobler-Morris, Sven [mailto:sven.kobler-morris@sap.com]
>>Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 4:02 PM
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
>>
>>Hello Mark,
>>
>>think it is best if discussion took place on dev@olingo.apache.org,
>>otherwise we have so sync the discussion between mailing
>>list/blog/forum
>>
>>On http://olingo.apache.org/support.html is information of how to join
>>dev@olingo.apache.org. Any interested developer can join.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Sven
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
>>Sent: Donnerstag, 24. Juli 2014 09:56
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
>>
>>Thanks Sven! Ideally we should consider getting input from the larger
>>OData community. The current Olingo community is mostly composed of
>>members of the TC, which I think biases the discussion somewhat. Is
>>there a way to extend the call for input to the full OData community?
>>Maybe we could put a blog post up on OData.org and send a mail to the
>>main OData DL?
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Kobler-Morris, Sven [mailto:sven.kobler-morris@sap.com]
>>Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 3:30 PM
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
>>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>this seems to be a valid point. So I cancelled the vote and we can do
>>further discussions on this.
>>From my current point of view ODataJS makes also sense as a name
>>because it is more releated to "OData" then "Olingo" and will show
>>better up in Search results ( as Yi mentioned).
>>
>>So please free discuss this here. There will be a new Vote on this
>>after the discussion.
>>
>>regards,
>>Sven
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Yi Ding [mailto:yiding@microsoft.com]
>>Sent: Donnerstag, 24. Juli 2014 08:20
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
>>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>I would propose that we reconsider using the name OData.JS or ODataJS.
>>OlingoJS certainly got majority of the votes but the number of votes
>>is small (only 6 votes).
>>
>>This JavaScript client library for OData is the core client library
>>for JavaScript mainly developed by sponsors of the TC of OASIS for
>>OData (at least this first version), so it qualifies as an official
>>JavaScript library of OData. Having OData.JS or ODataJS as its name
>>will vastly increase the possibility that users will turn to our
>>library as the first choice when he searches on the internet for
>>"OData JavaScript library"
>>and names like "OData.js", "Breeze.js", "JayData", etc. show up at the
>>same time. Using OlingoJS will likely to cause brand dilution. Apache
>>Olingo as the project name is totally respected but having OData as
>>part of the library name would also be very beneficial.
>>
>>It would be really helpful if people voted on OlingoJS can shed light
>>on your reasons for this choice so that we can discuss about it.
>>
>>Best,
>>Yi
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Kobler-Morris, Sven [mailto:sven.kobler-morris@sap.com]
>>Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 11:02 PM
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: Java Script library Name voting result
>>
>>Hi,
>>
>>for the name the majority is for "OlingoJS".
>>
>>So we use OlingoJS as name.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Sven
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: V.A, Chandan [mailto:chandan.v.a@sap.com]
>>Sent: Montag, 21. Juli 2014 14:32
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: RE: [VOTE] Java Script library Name
>>
>>OlingoJS +1
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Kind Regards
>>Chandan VA
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Kobler-Morris, Sven [mailto:sven.kobler-morris@sap.com]
>>Sent: Monday, July 21, 2014 2:19 PM
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: [VOTE] Java Script library Name
>>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>below is a list of collected names for the Java Script OData client
>>library which makes sense from our point of view. For voting please ad
>>a
>>+1 behind your favorite choice.
>>
>>1. datajs
>>2. OlingoJS
>>
>>3. ODataJS
>>
>>4. Olingo.OData.JS
>>
>>
>>regards,
>>Sven
>
RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Posted by Mark Stafford <ma...@microsoft.com>.
Wow, I am incredibly sorry that this took so long to resolve, but I do have resolution. Again, thank you for making an issue of this as there were more legal questions than I would have thought with the name "OData".
We have been cleared by our legal and Mike Pizzo from the TC to suggest "Olingo OData Client for Java" or some variant of that. We can certainly still include just "Olingo Java" etc in the vote, my main concern was getting at least one name with "OData" directly in the title.
I also did some thinking about other possible mitigations when things were looking particularly grim and I think we could also do something on OData.org to highlight these libraries, so at the end of the day I'm not quite as concerned as I was when we first addressed this issue.
So to wrap this up, THANK YOU to all of your for your patience and hearing me out, and I think we are cleared to vote again.
Thanks,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Amend, Christian [mailto:christian.amend@sap.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 6, 2014 8:22 PM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi Mark,
is there an estimated time when you could provide the summary?
Thanks & Best Regards,
Christian
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Mittwoch, 30. Juli 2014 16:34
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Cc: Handl, Ralf
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Sorry, Christian, thanks for the ping. There was an internal thread going on and I have relayed the ping to get a summary out to you. I hope to send that later today PST.
Thanks,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Amend, Christian [mailto:christian.amend@sap.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2014 7:21 AM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Cc: Handl, Ralf
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi everyone,
is there an update regarding the naming? If we could resolve this we can have another vote.
Best Regards,
Christian
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Freitag, 25. Juli 2014 16:54
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
I've reached out to our legal and a couple key members of the TC for comment, but a couple of preliminary comments (don't treat these as legal advice):
* We granted the logo to OASIS with the intention that it be made more available, not less. Specifically, we wanted SAP to be able to use it without having to worry about legal restrictions. So the new restrictions that have been placed on it really confuse me.
* The text OData is separate from the OData icon, so I'm not sure that guidance applies to names of libraries.
-----Original Message-----
From: Amend, Christian [mailto:christian.amend@sap.com]
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 10:31 PM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi,
I checked the OData.org website and found this entry from May 23th, 2014:
You MAY NOT use the OData Icon:
- As the name or logo of any product or software application.
-As an element of any other icon, logo, trademark, or service mark.
-In any manner that expresses or implies an affiliation with or endorsement by OASIS, OData.org, or any other party, absent a separate written agreement with an authorized licensor of the OData mark.
This is a blocker right? Can this be changed by the OData Committee? WDYT?
Best Regards,
Christian
Source: http://www.odata.org/documentation/odata-icon-usage-guidelines/
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Freitag, 25. Juli 2014 10:44
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Same here. Ralf, would you be able to clarify any potential trademark issues on behalf of OASIS? Or do we need to e-mail them per https://www.oasis-open.org/policies-guidelines/trademark?
Thanks,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Amend, Christian [mailto:christian.amend@sap.com]
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 3:48 PM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi,
I also like the idea of having OData in the Artifact name and this option should definitely be in the next vote once this discussion is over. But I would also like to have the trademark issue resolved beforehand and made part of this mail thread to make sure we are not violating any trademarks.
Maybe the people of the OData OASIS community could give their input on this and we could ask the people from Apache who specialize in branding what they can find. Unfortunately I am not an expert on this topic so I am very grateful for any advice on how to make sure we have no issues in the future there.
Best Regards,
Christian
-----Original Message-----
From: Handl, Ralf [mailto:ralf.handl@sap.com]
Sent: Freitag, 25. Juli 2014 09:11
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi all,
I like Christian's proposal of having just "OData" in the artifact names and reserve "Olingo" for the project name. In formal communication people can use the "fully qualified" name "Apache Olingo ODataXxx" (project name plus artifact name), and in informal communication the short names "ODataXxx" (artifact name only).
Good discussion!
--Ralf
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Friday, 25. July 2014 00:32
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Christian,
I have absolutely no objection to your suggestions below (and I appreciate the extra background information). I really do like the Apache project naming patterns and I support Olingo for the project name. I am exclusively focused on the release artifacts and it sounds like there's potential to keep the Apache project name but have a release artifact name that enables new OData-ites to find libraries easily.
Java and JavaScript are clearly the two dominant languages out there for most developers. Both have well-known package management release channels that (like .NET) don't require developers to know anything more than what technology they want to work with. Those release channels are where we really need to make it clear what the Olingo project is producing. (Because given a choice between OData4J and OlingoJava, my guess is that people will gravitate toward the former. At least ODataJava or a similar alternative will force them to stop and evaluate long enough to form a clearer picture.)
And again, thank you for your understanding. I fully recognize that the worst possible way to join a community is to barge in shouting, "DO IT MY WAY." It could easily feel like that's what I'm doing, but at the risk of repeating myself ad nauseum, my exclusive goal here is to make it as easy as possible for that new OData developer to find the best library for her JavaScript or Java application.
Thanks,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Amend, Christian [mailto:christian.amend@sap.com]
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2014 12:45 AM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi Mark,
I completely understand your concerns and I too agree that making a connection between Olingo and OData is not something which comes naturally.
Maybe it helps if I explain what we thought when this project first started here at Apache during incubation:
We had to decide for a name for this project. At first we thought of something like OData Java library or JavaOData. We decided against that for the following reasons:
1. There was already an open source project called OData4J and we wanted to prevent any confusion between the two projects.
2. The Apache trademark rules. We couldn`t take OData into the project name because it was not clear who is holding the trademarks. At that time I think it was Microsoft but the OASIS standard was on its way. Basically it was not clear enough and we wanted to start so we chose a name which had nothing to do with OData.
These were concerns which led to the name Olingo. But this is only the name for this project but not necessarily the name of the artifacts we release. Maybe we made a mistake not calling the release artifact OlingoJava but this is something we could change with the first V4 Java release.
So when we voted for the artifact name I voted for OlingoJS because I thought it fit well and it would allow for future implementations like maybe OlingoC++ or OlingoJava. I also had the hope that enough traffic on websites and blogposts would make it easier for people searching on the web to find Olingo if there are enough posts linking OData and Olingo together.
If trademark is out of the question I could also think of calling our release artifacts ODataJava and ODataJS. But this would not change the name of this project which would still be Olingo. So when someone talks about this project on a blog he would say: "Apache Olingo ODataJava" or "Apache Olingo ODataJS" but inside a maven dependency it would say ODataJava as an artifact name. WDYT?
About the statement from Florian I think that as our former mentor during incubation he just wanted to make clear that from an Apache point of view only PMC members have binding votes and these votes have to be cast on the dev list. This is just the Apache way of things. Of course it would be irresponsible to ignore any votes/opinions from the broader OData community which is using our library. But this is the reason we are still discussing this and have not gone ahead and changed the name.
Best Regards,
Christian
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
Sent: Donnerstag, 24. Juli 2014 17:29
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
<merged threads>
WRT trademarks, a couple of thoughts:
* Trademarks are typically regional and I don't see filings for either OData or Olingo at http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=searchss&state=4809:lege0l.1.1.
* I believe Microsoft LCA would say that we've granted whatever rights we might have had to the OData "brand" to OASIS. I worked hard with LCA to turn over the rights to the OData logo to them.
I will preface my comments by saying that I am doing my best to protect the OData community, not diminish the Olingo community or brand. I have been a part of the OData community since I joined Microsoft over three years ago.
I strongly believe that we all are part of a bigger community. I fully recognize that this is comparatively unique for Apache projects. Many (probably most) Apache projects are fully unique and innovative. However, I think it's an enormous loss if Olingo tries to fit that same mold - Olingo is part of something bigger and better than it will ever be on its own. OData is a protocol designed to make it easy to interchange data. The whole point of OData is to be ONE community, unified between a set of best-practice conventions for implementing RESTful APIs. Introducing alternative brands just dilutes what we currently have and in my opinion would be a great loss for the community at large.
I love Apache's ability to come up with unique and catchy names but there is something more important at stake here. We should make it EASY for people to find the reference OData JavaScript and Java libraries. A new OData user should not have to figure out that - oh, hey - Olingo.JS does happen to be the reference implementation supported by members of the OData TC. The worst part about this is that it forces the OData community to context switch. What happens when they need a C++ or .NET client? Will they assume that there isn't one because Olingo.Cpp doesn't exist?
I fully admit that we messed up on the first name of the JavaScript client. DataJS was a bad name too. We have internal threads dating back well over a year about how we should unify the branding of these clients. We have done this with the .NET client, we are doing it with the C++ client, we did it with the mistake-of-a client we released for iOS (not proud of that one), and we would have done it with the JavaScript client if we hadn't used it to seed this project.
We don't want to put the Microsoft brand on the clients we are sponsoring, we want to put the OData brand on them. The fact that they're produced by Microsoft is interesting but incidental. We sincerely hope that you feel the same way.
So to be explicitly clear, for the sake of the OData community as a whole I am humbly asking for the names OData.JS or OData Client for JavaScript or something similar, and a name that follows the same pattern for the Java client. I do think the server is more negotiable, but even there we've branded our flagship .NET server "ASP.NET Web API OData" (I know, I know... it's Microsoft) and the C++ server will also have "OData" featured prominently in the name. I don't want this to come across the wrong way, but please be part of the larger community, not a distinct community.
Thanks for hearing me out,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Florian Müller [mailto:fmui@apache.org]
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 10:50 PM
To: dev; Mark Stafford
Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi Mark,
A vote on the name of a sub project of an Apache project has to happen on an Apache mailing list. Votes of PMC members are bindings. Votes from others are welcome, but not binding. That is not negotiable.
Ideally, the discussion should also take place on an Apache mailing list to keep a record of the discussion.
Input from outside is always appreciated, but the PMC members make the final decision.
- Florian
-----Original Message-----
From: Bolz, Michael [mailto:michael.bolz@sap.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 10:27 PM
To: dev@olingo.apache.org
Subject: Re: Java Script library Name voting result
Hi together,
IMHO the Odata community can also discuss about naming and give suggestions but at the end the decision has to be on the "Olingo Dev Mailinglist <de...@olingo.apache.org>" by the PMC Members.
To the naming, I like it to have all libraries within Apache Olingo the "Olingo" part in their name which is the case for "Olingo.JS".
But I can understand and agree with the argument that if someone search for "odata javascript" he would find better results if the name is "OData.JS".
Beside of the points above, the trademark for "Olingo" is owned by Apache but who owns the trademark for "OData"?
Could we name it "OData.JS" without getting trouble about the trademark?
Kind regards,
Michael
On 24.07.14 12:05, "Mark Stafford" <ma...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>This seems reasonable and it was on my to-read list so thanks for
>pushing on the issue. I think those rules probably work very well for
>most Apache projects and will probably work very well for the vast
>majority of the issues the Olingo community will be voting on. But we
>need to remember that this is a reasonably unique project. It is part
>of a much larger community. We obviously will not be blogging on
>odata.org about code changes in these libraries. But for meta questions
>I think it absolutely makes sense to ask the larger community. This
>would include things like names, moving projects around, relative priorities of projects, etc.
>
>Thanks,
>Mark
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Klevenz, Stephan [mailto:stephan.klevenz@sap.com]
>Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 4:49 PM
>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>Subject: Re: Java Script library Name voting result
>
>Hi all,
>
>Please have a look at [1] so that we have a common understanding of the
>Apache voting process.
>
>I don't want to stress this to much. We are having a healthy discussion
>and I am pretty sure that we get a consensus. After that we can do a
>new vote.
>
>Regards,
>Stephan
>
>[1] http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html
>
>
>
>
>On 24.07.14 10:29, "Mark Stafford" <ma...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
>>I'm not asking us to exclude dev@olingo.apache.org, just asking to
>>include a larger community. As far as I can tell there's less than 20
>>members on this mailing list and most of us work for Microsoft or SAP
>>so it's not a good place to get feedback on something as visible as
>>the name of the library. By contrast odata.org had 61,000 unique
>>visitors in June.
>>We certainly won't get responses from that many people, but I'd hope
>>we can get a voting result that includes more than six votes from two
>>companies. That's not a very representative sample.
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Kobler-Morris, Sven [mailto:sven.kobler-morris@sap.com]
>>Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 4:02 PM
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
>>
>>Hello Mark,
>>
>>think it is best if discussion took place on dev@olingo.apache.org,
>>otherwise we have so sync the discussion between mailing
>>list/blog/forum
>>
>>On http://olingo.apache.org/support.html is information of how to join
>>dev@olingo.apache.org. Any interested developer can join.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Sven
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Mark Stafford [mailto:mastaffo@microsoft.com]
>>Sent: Donnerstag, 24. Juli 2014 09:56
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
>>
>>Thanks Sven! Ideally we should consider getting input from the larger
>>OData community. The current Olingo community is mostly composed of
>>members of the TC, which I think biases the discussion somewhat. Is
>>there a way to extend the call for input to the full OData community?
>>Maybe we could put a blog post up on OData.org and send a mail to the
>>main OData DL?
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Kobler-Morris, Sven [mailto:sven.kobler-morris@sap.com]
>>Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2014 3:30 PM
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
>>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>this seems to be a valid point. So I cancelled the vote and we can do
>>further discussions on this.
>>From my current point of view ODataJS makes also sense as a name
>>because it is more releated to "OData" then "Olingo" and will show
>>better up in Search results ( as Yi mentioned).
>>
>>So please free discuss this here. There will be a new Vote on this
>>after the discussion.
>>
>>regards,
>>Sven
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Yi Ding [mailto:yiding@microsoft.com]
>>Sent: Donnerstag, 24. Juli 2014 08:20
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: RE: Java Script library Name voting result
>>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>I would propose that we reconsider using the name OData.JS or ODataJS.
>>OlingoJS certainly got majority of the votes but the number of votes
>>is small (only 6 votes).
>>
>>This JavaScript client library for OData is the core client library
>>for JavaScript mainly developed by sponsors of the TC of OASIS for
>>OData (at least this first version), so it qualifies as an official
>>JavaScript library of OData. Having OData.JS or ODataJS as its name
>>will vastly increase the possibility that users will turn to our
>>library as the first choice when he searches on the internet for
>>"OData JavaScript library"
>>and names like "OData.js", "Breeze.js", "JayData", etc. show up at the
>>same time. Using OlingoJS will likely to cause brand dilution. Apache
>>Olingo as the project name is totally respected but having OData as
>>part of the library name would also be very beneficial.
>>
>>It would be really helpful if people voted on OlingoJS can shed light
>>on your reasons for this choice so that we can discuss about it.
>>
>>Best,
>>Yi
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Kobler-Morris, Sven [mailto:sven.kobler-morris@sap.com]
>>Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2014 11:02 PM
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: Java Script library Name voting result
>>
>>Hi,
>>
>>for the name the majority is for "OlingoJS".
>>
>>So we use OlingoJS as name.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Sven
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: V.A, Chandan [mailto:chandan.v.a@sap.com]
>>Sent: Montag, 21. Juli 2014 14:32
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: RE: [VOTE] Java Script library Name
>>
>>OlingoJS +1
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Kind Regards
>>Chandan VA
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Kobler-Morris, Sven [mailto:sven.kobler-morris@sap.com]
>>Sent: Monday, July 21, 2014 2:19 PM
>>To: dev@olingo.apache.org
>>Subject: [VOTE] Java Script library Name
>>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>below is a list of collected names for the Java Script OData client
>>library which makes sense from our point of view. For voting please ad
>>a
>>+1 behind your favorite choice.
>>
>>1. datajs
>>2. OlingoJS
>>
>>3. ODataJS
>>
>>4. Olingo.OData.JS
>>
>>
>>regards,
>>Sven
>