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Posted to dev@diversity.apache.org by Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> on 2019/07/01 08:12:56 UTC
[DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Hey all,
We've already discussed the finer points and alternatives here. But we
need a concrete proposal. And because we are talking about pre-selecting
proposals and interacting with other projects, I want us to give the board
a heads up. I'd like to suggest that we provide the notification below to
the board.
As always, patches welcome. But warning: I'll *scream* if anyone mentions
'core tenant' or 'first principle' one more time. (Here's my scream for my
own mention: AAAAH! ; o)
Best Regards,
Myrle Krantz
D&I n00b
-----------------
Subject: [NOTICE] D&I intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program.
Background: D&I has been approached by a potential sponsor who wishes to
support the participation of Outreachy in ASF projects by donating directly
to Outreachy. D&I wishes to perform UX research on the experience of
members of underrepresented groups as they get started with our
communities. This offer provides us with an excellent opportunity to do so.
Currently offered funding levels are enough to cover 3 interns. D&I plans
to accept this offer, and provide the following support:
* Advertise this opportunity to projects and seek proposals.
* Manage the project submission process to Outreachy, including filtering
out unsuitable project proposals, and, if necessary, making a final
selection of intern-project pairs.
* Ask interns for feedback on their experiences at various times throughout
the internship.
* Provide appropriate and useful feedback to the Foundation and to the
projects about opportunities to improve how welcoming we are, and what we
can improve on.
* Use this as an opportunity to increase awareness and acceptance of the
ASF in communities which we are currently not reaching as well as we would
like.
If D&I finds funding for more than 3 interns, we intend to accept it, but
we plan to keep the initial rounds of this project relatively small for
learning purposes.
-----------------
The road ahead on this proposal is as follows (** indicates where we are
now):
* Start a [DISCUSS] thread.
** Allow the discussion to run as long as *new* points are being made.
* Start a [VOTE] thread to run for 72 hours.
* Submit a [NOTICE] to the board.
* Wait 72 hours for potential board objections.
* Get to work.
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>.
My goal was to avoid long discussions by updating the text.
Myrle has accepted the update so I am happy.
On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 9:07 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>
> On 2019/07/01 15:35:20, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Let's fix this wording to avoid unnecessary allergic responses.
> >
> > The problem and risk that I see here is that D&I is not accepting any
> > funding for interns. Outreachy is. Saying the word "accept" with respect
> to
> > this funding may lead some to think that D&I is challenging, uhhmmm, core
> > beliefs (hah! didn't say it). In fact, I do not think that you intend to
> do
> > such and I, for one, would rather avoid an exhausting and pointless
> > argument of the form "You must not do this! ... We don't plan to ... But
> > you must not! ... We aren't doing it ... *ad infinitum*".
> >
>
> That snipe was unwarranted. Was your intent to provide feedback or stir
> the pot?
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@apache.org>.
On 2019/07/01 15:35:20, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Let's fix this wording to avoid unnecessary allergic responses.
>
> The problem and risk that I see here is that D&I is not accepting any
> funding for interns. Outreachy is. Saying the word "accept" with respect to
> this funding may lead some to think that D&I is challenging, uhhmmm, core
> beliefs (hah! didn't say it). In fact, I do not think that you intend to do
> such and I, for one, would rather avoid an exhausting and pointless
> argument of the form "You must not do this! ... We don't plan to ... But
> you must not! ... We aren't doing it ... *ad infinitum*".
>
That snipe was unwarranted. Was your intent to provide feedback or stir the pot?
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>.
Apologies. I mis-credited the originator of the measuring idea. Thank you
*Roman* for your excellent question.
: o),
Myrle
On Thu, Jul 4, 2019 at 11:53 AM Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hey Ross,
>
> You've asked a very important question. Let me take it on, a little bit
> in the style of a balanced score-card. To measure impact, we first have to
> be in agreement about which impact we want to achieve. Going all the way
> back to first principles to justify this:
>
> What is the mission of the foundation? "To produce open source software
> for the public good."
> What is the mission of D&I? "To welcome people from diverse backgrounds,
> and bring them into the process of producing open source software for the
> public good."
> What is the purpose of this initiative?
> * "To explicitly express our welcome to people from diverse backgrounds
> via an organization that has good relationships in these communities."
> (Welcoming)
> * "To better understand the obstacles and bright spots in our
> communities, and to document and share that information." (Understanding)
>
> So how do we measure impact for these two items?
> * For Welcoming, we'll find it difficult to narrow down cause and effect
> (as is always the case in marketing efforts). But we can still measure
> trends. To do this we will be working on and administering a survey at
> regular intervals. But that is a separate effort with its own, already
> approved budget. While formulating that survey, we should keep in mind how
> our goals connect to the mission of our Foundation.
> * For Understanding, we will be producing documentation. One measure is:
> "does the documentation exist, was it read by the projects, and were they
> able to derive value from it?" We can also ask that projects give us
> feedback about whether or not they found the process helpful. This
> information will help us when it comes time to decide if we want to go more
> rounds with Outreachy in the future.
>
> Best Regards,
> Myrle
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 8:39 PM Ross Gardler
> <Ro...@microsoft.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> +1 for measuring impact, given that the goal is to learn I had assumed it
>> was there by default. Wouldn't hurt to make it explicit.
>>
>> That said. This is about people funding ASF interns through Outreachy NOT
>> through ASF. There is no "I" for the ASF, in this proposal, other than
>> volunteer energy which is not under the boards control.
>>
>> If a future request asks for an ASF "I" having data would indeed be
>> useful.
>>
>> Roas
>>
>>
>>
>> Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2019 11:33:50 AM
>> To: dev@diversity.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
>> Outreachy intern program
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 11:59 PM Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Based on the preceding discussion, I'm stripping the first sentence out
>> of
>> > the background section. The notice is confusing though if I strip every
>> > mention of funding, so I've left some bits in there. The latest
>> version is
>> > below.
>> >
>> > I believe the discussion is petering out. I'm going to give it another
>> day
>> > and, if nothing happens, I'll move on to the next step.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> > Myrle
>> >
>> > -----------------
>> > Subject: [NOTICE] D&I intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program.
>> >
>> > Background: D&I wishes to perform UX research on the experience of
>> members
>> > of underrepresented groups as they get started with our communities.
>> > Internships via Outreachy provide us with an excellent opportunity to
>> do so.
>> >
>> > A sponsor has offered to provide stipends via Outreachy which will
>> cover 3
>> > interns. D&I plans to provide the following support:
>> >
>> > * Advertise this opportunity to projects and seek mentors & proposals.
>> > * Manage the project submission process to Outreachy, including
>> filtering
>> > out unsuitable project proposals, and, if necessary, making a final
>> > selection of intern-project pairs.
>> > * Ask interns for feedback on their experiences at various times
>> throughout
>> > the internship.
>> > * Provide appropriate and useful feedback to the Foundation and to the
>> > projects about opportunities to improve how welcoming we are, and what
>> we
>> > can improve on.
>> > * Use this as an opportunity to increase awareness and acceptance of the
>> > ASF in communities which we are currently not reaching as well as we
>> would
>> > like.
>> >
>> > If Outreachy receives funding for more than 3 interns for the ASF, we
>> will
>> > facilitate the placement of such additional interns with Apache
>> projects,
>> > but we plan to keep the initial rounds of this project relatively small
>> for
>> > learning purposes.
>> >
>> > -----------------
>> > The road ahead on this proposal is as follows (** indicates where we are
>> > now):
>> > * Start a [DISCUSS] thread.
>> > ** Allow the discussion to run as long as *new* points are being made.
>> > * Start a [VOTE] thread to run for 72 hours.
>> > * Submit a [NOTICE] to the board.
>> > * Wait 72 hours for potential board objections.
>> > * Get to work.
>>
>> This is a really good draft, but I have to ask: is this committee
>> planning to put
>> some kind of reasonable metrics in place to evaluate the ROI of this
>> effort?
>>
>> This is very similar to tough questions that Myrle was asking around ROI
>> on
>> spending money for anniversary promotions. In both cases we all know in
>> our
>> gut that these are probably good investments and yet unless you can
>> measure
>> it you can't improve it also applies.
>>
>> Can something tangible be added to the draft so that we don't have to go
>> through
>> the same set of discussions we went through with anniversary
>> promotions expenditure?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Roman.
>>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Naomi S <no...@tumbolia.org>.
On Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 18:18, Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Gris' statement is accurate and correct, based on the reports I see from
> > other committees.
> I've seen no statement from Gris. I believe you have read the thread
> incorrectly.
> >
> >> While it is a notice to the board, it's also a roadmap for the committee
> >> to follow.
> > And roadmaps evolve over time. Give this one some more, please.
>
> I have not in anyway suggested there is urgency. Is there urgency
> that the board must be notified in July that I'm not aware of?
>
>
> >
> >> I am -1 on notifying them with such vague terms. If you prefer, once
> >> you commit it to the board agenda, I can instead email board@ and
> >> request that such vagueness should be clarified.
> > That would be completely out of line, Kevin. Gris is the chair of this
> > committee and has the authority to submit the report she sees fit.
>
> We are looking at a fiduciary issue. The board and our membership
> deserve a non-vague description of how we we will spend and measure the
> success of that endeavor. Also setting a roadmap and expectations for
> that to be done will help people know what is needed to be done.
>
> I was suggesting the board recommend what they see as non-vague terms so
> the resolution will be accepted.
>
I believe you are confused. this is not a board resolution. nor is it a
request to spend ASF money. it is a notice to the board about our plans to
coordinate with Outreachy (who have been funded by a third-party sponsor)
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by "Kevin A. McGrail" <km...@apache.org>.
> Gris' statement is accurate and correct, based on the reports I see from
> other committees.
I've seen no statement from Gris. I believe you have read the thread
incorrectly.
>
>> While it is a notice to the board, it's also a roadmap for the committee
>> to follow.
> And roadmaps evolve over time. Give this one some more, please.
I have not in anyway suggested there is urgency. Is there urgency
that the board must be notified in July that I'm not aware of?
>
>> I am -1 on notifying them with such vague terms. If you prefer, once
>> you commit it to the board agenda, I can instead email board@ and
>> request that such vagueness should be clarified.
> That would be completely out of line, Kevin. Gris is the chair of this
> committee and has the authority to submit the report she sees fit.
Of course she Gris has that authority. However, as I wrote above this
isn't a statement from Gris and secondly I'm entitled to my opinion.
Whether my vote of -1 is binding is TBD for the committee and how it
functions which I have zero issues if Gris is a BD. It is, however,
still my opinion.
We are looking at a fiduciary issue. The board and our membership
deserve a non-vague description of how we we will spend and measure the
success of that endeavor. Also setting a roadmap and expectations for
that to be done will help people know what is needed to be done.
I was suggesting the board recommend what they see as non-vague terms so
the resolution will be accepted.
> If you insist on emailing board@, I can't stop you, but your email will
> go ignored by this Director.
I do not insist on anything. I asked another director her preference if
you read my note.
> Please no. We've already had complaints about Google tooling being
> exclusionary on this list (or, it might have been discuss@).
>
> We already have a plethora of ASF-provided tools, and we should work
> with what we've got today: Jira, Confluence, or even a git repository.
I am referring to the ASF google infrastructure: gsuite.cloud.apache.org
that is doing great work for a number of endeavors
I have no strong opinion but if you want me to do work, I need tools
that are efficient and compatible with accessibility tools for
low-vision. That's not Jira and Confluence but I'm happy to put my work
in sheets and others can groom into other locations as the committee
deems fit.
Regards,
KAM
>>> On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 1:07 PM Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 7/5/2019 5:21 AM, Myrle Krantz wrote:
>>>>> Alright, new version. With an added section on measuring.
>>>> I see some issues with the lack of specificity. You will set things up
>>>> for success by adding this specificity on deliverables. It will set
>>>> expectations and help answer hard questions that might otherwise go
>>>> unnoticed.
>>>>
>>>> #1: how specifically will you advertise this? It is extremely difficult
>>>> to get the word spread on things within the ASF and there are concerns
>>>> constantly with overwhelming people using bulk lists. Please discuss
>>>> how you envision this happening because I see this as a pretty big hurdle:
>>>>
>>>> * Advertise this opportunity to projects and seek mentors & proposals.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> #2: What tool will we use for the feedback? Email? Surveys? Please
>>>> specify the number of times and the frequency or a minimum such as no less
>>>> than 3x's during the program.
>>>>
>>>> * Ask interns for feedback on their experiences at various times throughout
>>>> the internship.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> #3: Define regular intervals, please. It's far too vague.
>>>> * In a seperate effort we will be working on and administering a survey at
>>>> regular intervals.
>>>>
>>>> regards,
>>>> KAM
>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Myrle
>>>>>
>>>>> -----------------
>>>>> Subject: [NOTICE] D&I intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program.
>>>>>
>>>>> Background: D&I wishes to perform UX research on the experience of
>>>> members
>>>>> of underrepresented groups as they get started with our communities.
>>>>> Internships via Outreachy provide us with an excellent opportunity to do
>>>> so.
>>>>> A sponsor has offered to provide stipends via Outreachy which will cover
>>>> 3
>>>>> interns. D&I plans to provide the following support:
>>>>>
>>>>> * Advertise this opportunity to projects and seek mentors & proposals.
>>>>> * Manage the project submission process to Outreachy, including filtering
>>>>> out unsuitable project proposals, and, if necessary, making a final
>>>>> selection of intern-project pairs.
>>>>> * Ask interns for feedback on their experiences at various times
>>>> throughout
>>>>> the internship.
>>>>> * Provide appropriate and useful feedback to the Foundation and to the
>>>>> projects about opportunities to improve how welcoming we are, and what we
>>>>> can improve on.
>>>>> * Use this as an opportunity to increase awareness and acceptance of the
>>>>> ASF in communities which we are currently not reaching as well as we
>>>> would
>>>>> like.
>>>>>
>>>>> If Outreachy receives funding for more than 3 interns for the ASF, we
>>>> will
>>>>> facilitate the placement of such additional interns with Apache projects,
>>>>> but we plan to keep the initial rounds of this project relatively small
>>>> for
>>>>> learning purposes.
>>>>>
>>>>> We intend to measure the success of this program in the following ways:
>>>>> * In a seperate effort we will be working on and administering a survey
>>>> at
>>>>> regular intervals.
>>>>> * We will ask participating projects to provide feedback on the program
>>>> and
>>>>> on our resulting documentation.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----------------
>>>>> The road ahead on this proposal is as follows (** indicates where we are
>>>>> now):
>>>>> * Start a [DISCUSS] thread.
>>>>> ** Allow the discussion to run as long as *new* points are being made.
>>>>> * Start a [VOTE] thread to run for 72 hours.
>>>>> * Submit a [NOTICE] to the board.
>>>>> * Wait 72 hours for potential board objections.
>>>>> * Get to work.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 10:33 AM Naomi S <no...@tumbolia.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 05:48, Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is just a from-a-peanut-gallery-wish-list (feel free to ignore),
>>>>>>> but I'd really love to see
>>>>>>> us partner with at least a few orgs like Outreachy simply to be able to
>>>>>>> get more
>>>>>>> diverse set of opinions on how to approach D&I issue at ASF.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> don't want to get ahead of ourselves. but in general, +1
>>>>>>
>>>>>> a plurality of approaches, organizations, and efforts is important
>>>> because
>>>>>> there are so many intersecting issues, perspectives, and needs
>>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Kevin A. McGrail
>>>> Member, Apache Software Foundation
>>>> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
>>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>>>>
>>>>
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by "Kevin A. McGrail" <km...@apache.org>.
On 7/5/2019 12:03 PM, Sam Ruby wrote:
> Kevin, I encourage you to reconsider your -1 and to work on the specifics
> in parallel.
This is a dialog to refine a deliverable. I am always in a state of
reconsidering.
There are a three places with vague terms which I pointed out before
[1]. Here are some specific solutions that I think are tenable ways to
work on it:
#1: how specifically will you advertise this is a big question. Rich and Bertrand, you have both pointed out the difficulties the iot list will have with this exact issue. Do you have recommendations for this? I fear the committee is overestimating things and that "build it and they will come" will be a failure as it has historically been with the ASF. We want success so blog posts, email to members, approval of a pmcs@ email should all be considered.
#2: I recommend a google form with a google sheet back end is used no less than 3 times at the end of first month, end of second month and end of the program to survey the interns and record their answers.
#3: This entire phrase is unclear and vague. Surveying who for what purpose?
Regards,
KAM
[1]
#1: how specifically will you advertise this? It is extremely difficult
to get the word spread on things within the ASF and there are concerns
constantly with overwhelming people using bulk lists. Please discuss
how you envision this happening because I see this as a pretty big hurdle:
* Advertise this opportunity to projects and seek mentors & proposals.
#2: What tool will we use for the feedback? Email? Surveys? Please specify the number of times and the frequency or a minimum such as no less than 3x's during the program.
* Ask interns for feedback on their experiences at various times throughout
the internship.
#3: Define regular intervals, please. It's far too vague.
* In a seperate effort we will be working on and administering a survey at
regular intervals.
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org>.
<with my Board of Directors hat on>
On 2019-07-05 11:18, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>
>> Remember this is a notification to the board. The level of specificity you
>> are proposing I add goes well beyond what the board requires from other
>> areas; even for budget requests. I will not hold up this item until that
>> level of detail is available.
Gris' statement is accurate and correct, based on the reports I see from
other committees.
> While it is a notice to the board, it's also a roadmap for the committee
> to follow.
And roadmaps evolve over time. Give this one some more, please.
> I am -1 on notifying them with such vague terms. If you prefer, once
> you commit it to the board agenda, I can instead email board@ and
> request that such vagueness should be clarified.
That would be completely out of line, Kevin. Gris is the chair of this
committee and has the authority to submit the report she sees fit.
The board is looking for direction and intent at this time, with the
faith that the precise details you're asking for will be filled in
later, shephered by Gris and the full committee. Any specific questions
can be provided as feedback by the board through Whimsy, or emails to
this list.
On that note: the board is watching this committee very, very closely.
Do not think for one second that any of the nine of us are unaware of
what's going on.
If you insist on emailing board@, I can't stop you, but your email will
go ignored by this Director.
>> We will need to work out these details in order to implement this program,
>> but that will take time, and it's only fair to the board and the volunteers
>> doing the work to let them know that we are working on it, and give them
>> the opportunity to object, before we head off "into the weeds" so to speak.
> Then specify that the vague terms are TBD and will be reported in
> another follow-up.
>> However, if you want to create an area in confluence or Jira and start
>> breaking down the tasks in the manner you intimate in your feedback here,
>> that would really help us move forward on this.
>
> I'm a google fan not a wiki person. Want me to setup a Google drive for
> D&I and start working on a Google Sheet?
Please no. We've already had complaints about Google tooling being
exclusionary on this list (or, it might have been discuss@).
We already have a plethora of ASF-provided tools, and we should work
with what we've got today: Jira, Confluence, or even a git repository.
>> On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 1:07 PM Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/5/2019 5:21 AM, Myrle Krantz wrote:
>>>> Alright, new version. With an added section on measuring.
>>> I see some issues with the lack of specificity. You will set things up
>>> for success by adding this specificity on deliverables. It will set
>>> expectations and help answer hard questions that might otherwise go
>>> unnoticed.
>>>
>>> #1: how specifically will you advertise this? It is extremely difficult
>>> to get the word spread on things within the ASF and there are concerns
>>> constantly with overwhelming people using bulk lists. Please discuss
>>> how you envision this happening because I see this as a pretty big hurdle:
>>>
>>> * Advertise this opportunity to projects and seek mentors & proposals.
>>>
>>>
>>> #2: What tool will we use for the feedback? Email? Surveys? Please
>>> specify the number of times and the frequency or a minimum such as no less
>>> than 3x's during the program.
>>>
>>> * Ask interns for feedback on their experiences at various times throughout
>>> the internship.
>>>
>>>
>>> #3: Define regular intervals, please. It's far too vague.
>>> * In a seperate effort we will be working on and administering a survey at
>>> regular intervals.
>>>
>>> regards,
>>> KAM
>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Myrle
>>>>
>>>> -----------------
>>>> Subject: [NOTICE] D&I intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program.
>>>>
>>>> Background: D&I wishes to perform UX research on the experience of
>>> members
>>>> of underrepresented groups as they get started with our communities.
>>>> Internships via Outreachy provide us with an excellent opportunity to do
>>> so.
>>>> A sponsor has offered to provide stipends via Outreachy which will cover
>>> 3
>>>> interns. D&I plans to provide the following support:
>>>>
>>>> * Advertise this opportunity to projects and seek mentors & proposals.
>>>> * Manage the project submission process to Outreachy, including filtering
>>>> out unsuitable project proposals, and, if necessary, making a final
>>>> selection of intern-project pairs.
>>>> * Ask interns for feedback on their experiences at various times
>>> throughout
>>>> the internship.
>>>> * Provide appropriate and useful feedback to the Foundation and to the
>>>> projects about opportunities to improve how welcoming we are, and what we
>>>> can improve on.
>>>> * Use this as an opportunity to increase awareness and acceptance of the
>>>> ASF in communities which we are currently not reaching as well as we
>>> would
>>>> like.
>>>>
>>>> If Outreachy receives funding for more than 3 interns for the ASF, we
>>> will
>>>> facilitate the placement of such additional interns with Apache projects,
>>>> but we plan to keep the initial rounds of this project relatively small
>>> for
>>>> learning purposes.
>>>>
>>>> We intend to measure the success of this program in the following ways:
>>>> * In a seperate effort we will be working on and administering a survey
>>> at
>>>> regular intervals.
>>>> * We will ask participating projects to provide feedback on the program
>>> and
>>>> on our resulting documentation.
>>>>
>>>> -----------------
>>>> The road ahead on this proposal is as follows (** indicates where we are
>>>> now):
>>>> * Start a [DISCUSS] thread.
>>>> ** Allow the discussion to run as long as *new* points are being made.
>>>> * Start a [VOTE] thread to run for 72 hours.
>>>> * Submit a [NOTICE] to the board.
>>>> * Wait 72 hours for potential board objections.
>>>> * Get to work.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 10:33 AM Naomi S <no...@tumbolia.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 05:48, Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> This is just a from-a-peanut-gallery-wish-list (feel free to ignore),
>>>>>> but I'd really love to see
>>>>>> us partner with at least a few orgs like Outreachy simply to be able to
>>>>>> get more
>>>>>> diverse set of opinions on how to approach D&I issue at ASF.
>>>>>>
>>>>> don't want to get ahead of ourselves. but in general, +1
>>>>>
>>>>> a plurality of approaches, organizations, and efforts is important
>>> because
>>>>> there are so many intersecting issues, perspectives, and needs
>>>>>
>>> --
>>> Kevin A. McGrail
>>> Member, Apache Software Foundation
>>> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>>>
>>>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Naomi S <no...@tumbolia.org>.
On Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 17:18, Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Remember this is a notification to the board. The level of specificity
> you
> > are proposing I add goes well beyond what the board requires from other
> > areas; even for budget requests. I will not hold up this item until that
> > level of detail is available.
>
> While it is a notice to the board, it's also a roadmap for the committee
> to follow.
that is incorrect. please drop this now
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
I'm +1 on the notification as it currently stands.
I'm strongly -1 on delaying it further. While I agree that specifics are
valuable, those can be developed in parallel and don't affect the
confirmation I need to proceed with the IBM sponsorship of Outreachy this
go around.
Kevin, I encourage you to reconsider your -1 and to work on the specifics
in parallel.
On Fri, Jul 5, 2019, 11:18 AM Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Remember this is a notification to the board. The level of specificity
> you
> > are proposing I add goes well beyond what the board requires from other
> > areas; even for budget requests. I will not hold up this item until that
> > level of detail is available.
>
> While it is a notice to the board, it's also a roadmap for the committee
> to follow.
>
> I am -1 on notifying them with such vague terms. If you prefer, once
> you commit it to the board agenda, I can instead email board@ and
> request that such vagueness should be clarified.
>
> > We will need to work out these details in order to implement this
> program,
> > but that will take time, and it's only fair to the board and the
> volunteers
> > doing the work to let them know that we are working on it, and give them
> > the opportunity to object, before we head off "into the weeds" so to
> speak.
> Then specify that the vague terms are TBD and will be reported in
> another follow-up.
> > However, if you want to create an area in confluence or Jira and start
> > breaking down the tasks in the manner you intimate in your feedback here,
> > that would really help us move forward on this.
>
> I'm a google fan not a wiki person. Want me to setup a Google drive for
> D&I and start working on a Google Sheet?
>
>
> > On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 1:07 PM Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> >> On 7/5/2019 5:21 AM, Myrle Krantz wrote:
> >>> Alright, new version. With an added section on measuring.
> >> I see some issues with the lack of specificity. You will set things up
> >> for success by adding this specificity on deliverables. It will set
> >> expectations and help answer hard questions that might otherwise go
> >> unnoticed.
> >>
> >> #1: how specifically will you advertise this? It is extremely difficult
> >> to get the word spread on things within the ASF and there are concerns
> >> constantly with overwhelming people using bulk lists. Please discuss
> >> how you envision this happening because I see this as a pretty big
> hurdle:
> >>
> >> * Advertise this opportunity to projects and seek mentors & proposals.
> >>
> >>
> >> #2: What tool will we use for the feedback? Email? Surveys? Please
> >> specify the number of times and the frequency or a minimum such as no
> less
> >> than 3x's during the program.
> >>
> >> * Ask interns for feedback on their experiences at various times
> throughout
> >> the internship.
> >>
> >>
> >> #3: Define regular intervals, please. It's far too vague.
> >> * In a seperate effort we will be working on and administering a survey
> at
> >> regular intervals.
> >>
> >> regards,
> >> KAM
> >>
> >>> Best,
> >>> Myrle
> >>>
> >>> -----------------
> >>> Subject: [NOTICE] D&I intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern
> program.
> >>>
> >>> Background: D&I wishes to perform UX research on the experience of
> >> members
> >>> of underrepresented groups as they get started with our communities.
> >>> Internships via Outreachy provide us with an excellent opportunity to
> do
> >> so.
> >>> A sponsor has offered to provide stipends via Outreachy which will
> cover
> >> 3
> >>> interns. D&I plans to provide the following support:
> >>>
> >>> * Advertise this opportunity to projects and seek mentors & proposals.
> >>> * Manage the project submission process to Outreachy, including
> filtering
> >>> out unsuitable project proposals, and, if necessary, making a final
> >>> selection of intern-project pairs.
> >>> * Ask interns for feedback on their experiences at various times
> >> throughout
> >>> the internship.
> >>> * Provide appropriate and useful feedback to the Foundation and to the
> >>> projects about opportunities to improve how welcoming we are, and what
> we
> >>> can improve on.
> >>> * Use this as an opportunity to increase awareness and acceptance of
> the
> >>> ASF in communities which we are currently not reaching as well as we
> >> would
> >>> like.
> >>>
> >>> If Outreachy receives funding for more than 3 interns for the ASF, we
> >> will
> >>> facilitate the placement of such additional interns with Apache
> projects,
> >>> but we plan to keep the initial rounds of this project relatively small
> >> for
> >>> learning purposes.
> >>>
> >>> We intend to measure the success of this program in the following ways:
> >>> * In a seperate effort we will be working on and administering a survey
> >> at
> >>> regular intervals.
> >>> * We will ask participating projects to provide feedback on the program
> >> and
> >>> on our resulting documentation.
> >>>
> >>> -----------------
> >>> The road ahead on this proposal is as follows (** indicates where we
> are
> >>> now):
> >>> * Start a [DISCUSS] thread.
> >>> ** Allow the discussion to run as long as *new* points are being made.
> >>> * Start a [VOTE] thread to run for 72 hours.
> >>> * Submit a [NOTICE] to the board.
> >>> * Wait 72 hours for potential board objections.
> >>> * Get to work.
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 10:33 AM Naomi S <no...@tumbolia.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 05:48, Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> This is just a from-a-peanut-gallery-wish-list (feel free to ignore),
> >>>>> but I'd really love to see
> >>>>> us partner with at least a few orgs like Outreachy simply to be able
> to
> >>>>> get more
> >>>>> diverse set of opinions on how to approach D&I issue at ASF.
> >>>>>
> >>>> don't want to get ahead of ourselves. but in general, +1
> >>>>
> >>>> a plurality of approaches, organizations, and efforts is important
> >> because
> >>>> there are so many intersecting issues, perspectives, and needs
> >>>>
> >> --
> >> Kevin A. McGrail
> >> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> >> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
> >>
> >>
>
> --
> Kevin A. McGrail
> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Naomi S <no...@tumbolia.org>.
+1
On Sat 6. Jul 2019 at 01:01, Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.invalid>
wrote:
> Thank you Myrle for shepherding this notice through the end, you
> articulated our intent so we'll.
>
> On Fri, Jul 5, 2019, 2:50 PM Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Hey D&I peeps,
> >
> > I love Gris' plan for how to communicate with the projects, but (speaking
> > as a board member here), I want her, in her role as V.P., to have the
> > latitude to adjust that plan if the reality on the ground makes that
> > necessary. I trust Gris, and I don't want any of our projects to suffer
> > board oversight and direction at that level of detail. So I'm going to
> > leave the communications plan off the board notification.
> >
> > (Speaking again as just another D&I peep) I'm going to put this up for a
> > vote now. This DISCUSS thread was quite productive and overall, I'm
> > pleased with how we worked together on this. I hope that we can keep
> this
> > positive energy on this work going forward.
> >
> > Best,
> > Myrle
> >
> > (I feel a little silly here writing a notification for myself. I'm glad
> > there are 8 other board members who'll be looking at this too. : o)
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 10:48 PM Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 8:18 AM Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > Remember this is a notification to the board. The level of
> > specificity
> > > > you
> > > > > are proposing I add goes well beyond what the board requires from
> > other
> > > > > areas; even for budget requests. I will not hold up this item
> until
> > > that
> > > > > level of detail is available.
> > > >
> > > > While it is a notice to the board, it's also a roadmap for the
> > committee
> > > > to follow.
> > > >
> > >
> > > This board member thinks that no such specificity is required or even
> > > desirable.
> > >
> > > I think that the people doing the work here are doing a FINE job and
> > should
> > > be allowed to get on with it without additional stone fetching.
> > >
> >
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Austin Bennett <wh...@gmail.com>.
+1 (I thought we had already determined to move in this direction once
funding was routed separately from ASF -- still learning Apache processes).
On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 2:28 AM Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 6, 2019 at 1:01 AM Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> > Thank you Myrle for shepherding this notice through the end, you
> > articulated our intent so we'll.
> >
>
> Gris,
>
> It has absolutely been my pleasure. Once I call the vote, I'm going to
> hand the rest of the process to you, starting with the actually posting of
> the notice. I will try to help you in execution in any way that I can, so
> if there's something I can do that you need, please ask me.
>
> Just FYI, I'm going to delay calling the vote by 48 hours, to make sure
> everyone has a chance to participate. Thanks to Joan for being the first
> to point out the timing issues.
>
> Best,
> Myrle
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>.
On Sat, Jul 6, 2019 at 1:01 AM Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.invalid>
wrote:
> Thank you Myrle for shepherding this notice through the end, you
> articulated our intent so we'll.
>
Gris,
It has absolutely been my pleasure. Once I call the vote, I'm going to
hand the rest of the process to you, starting with the actually posting of
the notice. I will try to help you in execution in any way that I can, so
if there's something I can do that you need, please ask me.
Just FYI, I'm going to delay calling the vote by 48 hours, to make sure
everyone has a chance to participate. Thanks to Joan for being the first
to point out the timing issues.
Best,
Myrle
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.INVALID>.
Thank you Myrle for shepherding this notice through the end, you
articulated our intent so we'll.
On Fri, Jul 5, 2019, 2:50 PM Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hey D&I peeps,
>
> I love Gris' plan for how to communicate with the projects, but (speaking
> as a board member here), I want her, in her role as V.P., to have the
> latitude to adjust that plan if the reality on the ground makes that
> necessary. I trust Gris, and I don't want any of our projects to suffer
> board oversight and direction at that level of detail. So I'm going to
> leave the communications plan off the board notification.
>
> (Speaking again as just another D&I peep) I'm going to put this up for a
> vote now. This DISCUSS thread was quite productive and overall, I'm
> pleased with how we worked together on this. I hope that we can keep this
> positive energy on this work going forward.
>
> Best,
> Myrle
>
> (I feel a little silly here writing a notification for myself. I'm glad
> there are 8 other board members who'll be looking at this too. : o)
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 10:48 PM Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 8:18 AM Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > > Remember this is a notification to the board. The level of
> specificity
> > > you
> > > > are proposing I add goes well beyond what the board requires from
> other
> > > > areas; even for budget requests. I will not hold up this item until
> > that
> > > > level of detail is available.
> > >
> > > While it is a notice to the board, it's also a roadmap for the
> committee
> > > to follow.
> > >
> >
> > This board member thinks that no such specificity is required or even
> > desirable.
> >
> > I think that the people doing the work here are doing a FINE job and
> should
> > be allowed to get on with it without additional stone fetching.
> >
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>.
Hey D&I peeps,
I love Gris' plan for how to communicate with the projects, but (speaking
as a board member here), I want her, in her role as V.P., to have the
latitude to adjust that plan if the reality on the ground makes that
necessary. I trust Gris, and I don't want any of our projects to suffer
board oversight and direction at that level of detail. So I'm going to
leave the communications plan off the board notification.
(Speaking again as just another D&I peep) I'm going to put this up for a
vote now. This DISCUSS thread was quite productive and overall, I'm
pleased with how we worked together on this. I hope that we can keep this
positive energy on this work going forward.
Best,
Myrle
(I feel a little silly here writing a notification for myself. I'm glad
there are 8 other board members who'll be looking at this too. : o)
On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 10:48 PM Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 8:18 AM Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > > Remember this is a notification to the board. The level of specificity
> > you
> > > are proposing I add goes well beyond what the board requires from other
> > > areas; even for budget requests. I will not hold up this item until
> that
> > > level of detail is available.
> >
> > While it is a notice to the board, it's also a roadmap for the committee
> > to follow.
> >
>
> This board member thinks that no such specificity is required or even
> desirable.
>
> I think that the people doing the work here are doing a FINE job and should
> be allowed to get on with it without additional stone fetching.
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 8:18 AM Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Remember this is a notification to the board. The level of specificity
> you
> > are proposing I add goes well beyond what the board requires from other
> > areas; even for budget requests. I will not hold up this item until that
> > level of detail is available.
>
> While it is a notice to the board, it's also a roadmap for the committee
> to follow.
>
This board member thinks that no such specificity is required or even
desirable.
I think that the people doing the work here are doing a FINE job and should
be allowed to get on with it without additional stone fetching.
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by "Kevin A. McGrail" <km...@apache.org>.
> Remember this is a notification to the board. The level of specificity you
> are proposing I add goes well beyond what the board requires from other
> areas; even for budget requests. I will not hold up this item until that
> level of detail is available.
While it is a notice to the board, it's also a roadmap for the committee
to follow.
I am -1 on notifying them with such vague terms. If you prefer, once
you commit it to the board agenda, I can instead email board@ and
request that such vagueness should be clarified.
> We will need to work out these details in order to implement this program,
> but that will take time, and it's only fair to the board and the volunteers
> doing the work to let them know that we are working on it, and give them
> the opportunity to object, before we head off "into the weeds" so to speak.
Then specify that the vague terms are TBD and will be reported in
another follow-up.
> However, if you want to create an area in confluence or Jira and start
> breaking down the tasks in the manner you intimate in your feedback here,
> that would really help us move forward on this.
I'm a google fan not a wiki person. Want me to setup a Google drive for
D&I and start working on a Google Sheet?
> On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 1:07 PM Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> On 7/5/2019 5:21 AM, Myrle Krantz wrote:
>>> Alright, new version. With an added section on measuring.
>> I see some issues with the lack of specificity. You will set things up
>> for success by adding this specificity on deliverables. It will set
>> expectations and help answer hard questions that might otherwise go
>> unnoticed.
>>
>> #1: how specifically will you advertise this? It is extremely difficult
>> to get the word spread on things within the ASF and there are concerns
>> constantly with overwhelming people using bulk lists. Please discuss
>> how you envision this happening because I see this as a pretty big hurdle:
>>
>> * Advertise this opportunity to projects and seek mentors & proposals.
>>
>>
>> #2: What tool will we use for the feedback? Email? Surveys? Please
>> specify the number of times and the frequency or a minimum such as no less
>> than 3x's during the program.
>>
>> * Ask interns for feedback on their experiences at various times throughout
>> the internship.
>>
>>
>> #3: Define regular intervals, please. It's far too vague.
>> * In a seperate effort we will be working on and administering a survey at
>> regular intervals.
>>
>> regards,
>> KAM
>>
>>> Best,
>>> Myrle
>>>
>>> -----------------
>>> Subject: [NOTICE] D&I intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program.
>>>
>>> Background: D&I wishes to perform UX research on the experience of
>> members
>>> of underrepresented groups as they get started with our communities.
>>> Internships via Outreachy provide us with an excellent opportunity to do
>> so.
>>> A sponsor has offered to provide stipends via Outreachy which will cover
>> 3
>>> interns. D&I plans to provide the following support:
>>>
>>> * Advertise this opportunity to projects and seek mentors & proposals.
>>> * Manage the project submission process to Outreachy, including filtering
>>> out unsuitable project proposals, and, if necessary, making a final
>>> selection of intern-project pairs.
>>> * Ask interns for feedback on their experiences at various times
>> throughout
>>> the internship.
>>> * Provide appropriate and useful feedback to the Foundation and to the
>>> projects about opportunities to improve how welcoming we are, and what we
>>> can improve on.
>>> * Use this as an opportunity to increase awareness and acceptance of the
>>> ASF in communities which we are currently not reaching as well as we
>> would
>>> like.
>>>
>>> If Outreachy receives funding for more than 3 interns for the ASF, we
>> will
>>> facilitate the placement of such additional interns with Apache projects,
>>> but we plan to keep the initial rounds of this project relatively small
>> for
>>> learning purposes.
>>>
>>> We intend to measure the success of this program in the following ways:
>>> * In a seperate effort we will be working on and administering a survey
>> at
>>> regular intervals.
>>> * We will ask participating projects to provide feedback on the program
>> and
>>> on our resulting documentation.
>>>
>>> -----------------
>>> The road ahead on this proposal is as follows (** indicates where we are
>>> now):
>>> * Start a [DISCUSS] thread.
>>> ** Allow the discussion to run as long as *new* points are being made.
>>> * Start a [VOTE] thread to run for 72 hours.
>>> * Submit a [NOTICE] to the board.
>>> * Wait 72 hours for potential board objections.
>>> * Get to work.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 10:33 AM Naomi S <no...@tumbolia.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 05:48, Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> This is just a from-a-peanut-gallery-wish-list (feel free to ignore),
>>>>> but I'd really love to see
>>>>> us partner with at least a few orgs like Outreachy simply to be able to
>>>>> get more
>>>>> diverse set of opinions on how to approach D&I issue at ASF.
>>>>>
>>>> don't want to get ahead of ourselves. but in general, +1
>>>>
>>>> a plurality of approaches, organizations, and efforts is important
>> because
>>>> there are so many intersecting issues, perspectives, and needs
>>>>
>> --
>> Kevin A. McGrail
>> Member, Apache Software Foundation
>> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>>
>>
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.INVALID>.
Hi folks, just a note to let you know I have input for metrics and
operation, I am still reading all the thread and parsing comments.
On Fri, Jul 5, 2019, 6:44 AM Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hey Kevin,
>
> Remember this is a notification to the board. The level of specificity you
> are proposing I add goes well beyond what the board requires from other
> areas; even for budget requests. I will not hold up this item until that
> level of detail is available.
>
> We will need to work out these details in order to implement this program,
> but that will take time, and it's only fair to the board and the volunteers
> doing the work to let them know that we are working on it, and give them
> the opportunity to object, before we head off "into the weeds" so to speak.
>
> However, if you want to create an area in confluence or Jira and start
> breaking down the tasks in the manner you intimate in your feedback here,
> that would really help us move forward on this.
>
> Best,
> Myrle
>
> On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 1:07 PM Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> > On 7/5/2019 5:21 AM, Myrle Krantz wrote:
> > > Alright, new version. With an added section on measuring.
> >
> > I see some issues with the lack of specificity. You will set things up
> > for success by adding this specificity on deliverables. It will set
> > expectations and help answer hard questions that might otherwise go
> > unnoticed.
> >
> > #1: how specifically will you advertise this? It is extremely difficult
> > to get the word spread on things within the ASF and there are concerns
> > constantly with overwhelming people using bulk lists. Please discuss
> > how you envision this happening because I see this as a pretty big
> hurdle:
> >
> > * Advertise this opportunity to projects and seek mentors & proposals.
> >
> >
> > #2: What tool will we use for the feedback? Email? Surveys? Please
> > specify the number of times and the frequency or a minimum such as no
> less
> > than 3x's during the program.
> >
> > * Ask interns for feedback on their experiences at various times
> throughout
> > the internship.
> >
> >
> > #3: Define regular intervals, please. It's far too vague.
> > * In a seperate effort we will be working on and administering a survey
> at
> > regular intervals.
> >
> > regards,
> > KAM
> >
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Myrle
> > >
> > > -----------------
> > > Subject: [NOTICE] D&I intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern
> program.
> > >
> > > Background: D&I wishes to perform UX research on the experience of
> > members
> > > of underrepresented groups as they get started with our communities.
> > > Internships via Outreachy provide us with an excellent opportunity to
> do
> > so.
> > >
> > > A sponsor has offered to provide stipends via Outreachy which will
> cover
> > 3
> > > interns. D&I plans to provide the following support:
> > >
> > > * Advertise this opportunity to projects and seek mentors & proposals.
> > > * Manage the project submission process to Outreachy, including
> filtering
> > > out unsuitable project proposals, and, if necessary, making a final
> > > selection of intern-project pairs.
> > > * Ask interns for feedback on their experiences at various times
> > throughout
> > > the internship.
> > > * Provide appropriate and useful feedback to the Foundation and to the
> > > projects about opportunities to improve how welcoming we are, and what
> we
> > > can improve on.
> > > * Use this as an opportunity to increase awareness and acceptance of
> the
> > > ASF in communities which we are currently not reaching as well as we
> > would
> > > like.
> > >
> > > If Outreachy receives funding for more than 3 interns for the ASF, we
> > will
> > > facilitate the placement of such additional interns with Apache
> projects,
> > > but we plan to keep the initial rounds of this project relatively small
> > for
> > > learning purposes.
> > >
> > > We intend to measure the success of this program in the following ways:
> > > * In a seperate effort we will be working on and administering a survey
> > at
> > > regular intervals.
> > > * We will ask participating projects to provide feedback on the program
> > and
> > > on our resulting documentation.
> > >
> > > -----------------
> > > The road ahead on this proposal is as follows (** indicates where we
> are
> > > now):
> > > * Start a [DISCUSS] thread.
> > > ** Allow the discussion to run as long as *new* points are being made.
> > > * Start a [VOTE] thread to run for 72 hours.
> > > * Submit a [NOTICE] to the board.
> > > * Wait 72 hours for potential board objections.
> > > * Get to work.
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 10:33 AM Naomi S <no...@tumbolia.org> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 05:48, Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> This is just a from-a-peanut-gallery-wish-list (feel free to ignore),
> > >>> but I'd really love to see
> > >>> us partner with at least a few orgs like Outreachy simply to be able
> to
> > >>> get more
> > >>> diverse set of opinions on how to approach D&I issue at ASF.
> > >>>
> > >> don't want to get ahead of ourselves. but in general, +1
> > >>
> > >> a plurality of approaches, organizations, and efforts is important
> > because
> > >> there are so many intersecting issues, perspectives, and needs
> > >>
> >
> > --
> > Kevin A. McGrail
> > Member, Apache Software Foundation
> > Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> > https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
> >
> >
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>.
Hey Kevin,
Remember this is a notification to the board. The level of specificity you
are proposing I add goes well beyond what the board requires from other
areas; even for budget requests. I will not hold up this item until that
level of detail is available.
We will need to work out these details in order to implement this program,
but that will take time, and it's only fair to the board and the volunteers
doing the work to let them know that we are working on it, and give them
the opportunity to object, before we head off "into the weeds" so to speak.
However, if you want to create an area in confluence or Jira and start
breaking down the tasks in the manner you intimate in your feedback here,
that would really help us move forward on this.
Best,
Myrle
On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 1:07 PM Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 7/5/2019 5:21 AM, Myrle Krantz wrote:
> > Alright, new version. With an added section on measuring.
>
> I see some issues with the lack of specificity. You will set things up
> for success by adding this specificity on deliverables. It will set
> expectations and help answer hard questions that might otherwise go
> unnoticed.
>
> #1: how specifically will you advertise this? It is extremely difficult
> to get the word spread on things within the ASF and there are concerns
> constantly with overwhelming people using bulk lists. Please discuss
> how you envision this happening because I see this as a pretty big hurdle:
>
> * Advertise this opportunity to projects and seek mentors & proposals.
>
>
> #2: What tool will we use for the feedback? Email? Surveys? Please
> specify the number of times and the frequency or a minimum such as no less
> than 3x's during the program.
>
> * Ask interns for feedback on their experiences at various times throughout
> the internship.
>
>
> #3: Define regular intervals, please. It's far too vague.
> * In a seperate effort we will be working on and administering a survey at
> regular intervals.
>
> regards,
> KAM
>
> >
> > Best,
> > Myrle
> >
> > -----------------
> > Subject: [NOTICE] D&I intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program.
> >
> > Background: D&I wishes to perform UX research on the experience of
> members
> > of underrepresented groups as they get started with our communities.
> > Internships via Outreachy provide us with an excellent opportunity to do
> so.
> >
> > A sponsor has offered to provide stipends via Outreachy which will cover
> 3
> > interns. D&I plans to provide the following support:
> >
> > * Advertise this opportunity to projects and seek mentors & proposals.
> > * Manage the project submission process to Outreachy, including filtering
> > out unsuitable project proposals, and, if necessary, making a final
> > selection of intern-project pairs.
> > * Ask interns for feedback on their experiences at various times
> throughout
> > the internship.
> > * Provide appropriate and useful feedback to the Foundation and to the
> > projects about opportunities to improve how welcoming we are, and what we
> > can improve on.
> > * Use this as an opportunity to increase awareness and acceptance of the
> > ASF in communities which we are currently not reaching as well as we
> would
> > like.
> >
> > If Outreachy receives funding for more than 3 interns for the ASF, we
> will
> > facilitate the placement of such additional interns with Apache projects,
> > but we plan to keep the initial rounds of this project relatively small
> for
> > learning purposes.
> >
> > We intend to measure the success of this program in the following ways:
> > * In a seperate effort we will be working on and administering a survey
> at
> > regular intervals.
> > * We will ask participating projects to provide feedback on the program
> and
> > on our resulting documentation.
> >
> > -----------------
> > The road ahead on this proposal is as follows (** indicates where we are
> > now):
> > * Start a [DISCUSS] thread.
> > ** Allow the discussion to run as long as *new* points are being made.
> > * Start a [VOTE] thread to run for 72 hours.
> > * Submit a [NOTICE] to the board.
> > * Wait 72 hours for potential board objections.
> > * Get to work.
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 10:33 AM Naomi S <no...@tumbolia.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 05:48, Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> This is just a from-a-peanut-gallery-wish-list (feel free to ignore),
> >>> but I'd really love to see
> >>> us partner with at least a few orgs like Outreachy simply to be able to
> >>> get more
> >>> diverse set of opinions on how to approach D&I issue at ASF.
> >>>
> >> don't want to get ahead of ourselves. but in general, +1
> >>
> >> a plurality of approaches, organizations, and efforts is important
> because
> >> there are so many intersecting issues, perspectives, and needs
> >>
>
> --
> Kevin A. McGrail
> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Sage Sharp <sh...@otter.technology>.
On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 11:10 AM Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.invalid>
wrote:
> You asked if there is urgency on getting this to the board in July, the
> answer is yes.
> Outreachy's next round of internships kicks off in September, and I'd like
> to have plenty of time to work on ironing out execution details.
>
The deadline for new community sign up will be September 3. The deadline
for project submissions will be September 24. We recommend projects have
mentors in place before September 9, when we'll have an #OutreachyChat on
Twitter with alums and mentors. That chat gets people excited about the
internship projects, and encourages applicants to fill out an initial
application.
Sage Sharp
Outreachy Organizer
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.INVALID>.
Forgot to add a link to the list I suggested:
[1]
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en-gb#!forum/diversity--inclusion-in-open-source
On Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 11:10, Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com> wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> This conversation is derailing again. so I'd like to bringing it back to
> where Myrle started.
>
> @Kevin, I agree with you that there is still refinement with some points
> of the proposal, however I don't think the details are critical to get
> ASF's confirmation of support, which is what our Sponsor and the committee
> need to get started with this project.
>
> You asked if there is urgency on getting this to the board in July, the
> answer is yes.
> Outreachy's next round of internships kicks off in September, and I'd like
> to have plenty of time to work on ironing out execution details.
>
> You asked if we're looking to request a match in funds. The answer is not
> for this round.
>
> Now, I agree that knowing how we'll advertise the opportunity to the
> projects is key, so I'd like to ask Myrle to list the following options in
> the proposal:
>
> 1. Email the project PMCs using Karma (I'm not sure this is how we do
> it, sorry)
> 2. Use the ASF Twitter handle to promote the program regularly (once
> per week)
> 3. Publish the project in the ASF News round which goes out on Fridays
> 4. Leverage partner's social media channels e.g. Google Open Source,
> Outreachy, OSCON, etc.
> 5. Promote program in D&I lists such this one[1]
>
> This been said, I vote +1 on sending the final version of the proposal
> Myrle prepared.
>
> On Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 09:34, Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> On 7/5/2019 12:27 PM, Sam Ruby wrote:
>> > This notification does not contain any such request. As I previously
>> > indicated, I will not proceed with IBM's sponsorship unless I get
>> > confirmation (lazy or otherwise) that the ASF supports this effort.
>> >
>> > Coupling this request with other requests and desires that may or may
>> not
>> > come to pass is counterproductive. Please don't do that.
>>
>> If we will be asking for a match for this first round of interns, it's
>> relevant. If that is off the table, I agree.
>>
>> I want us to accept IBM's excellent donation and I want us to have our
>> expectations / processes ready to implement this very kind donation.
>> Let's work on clarifying them.
>>
>> --
>> Kevin A. McGrail
>> Member, Apache Software Foundation
>> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>>
>>
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.INVALID>.
Hi Folks,
This conversation is derailing again. so I'd like to bringing it back to
where Myrle started.
@Kevin, I agree with you that there is still refinement with some points of
the proposal, however I don't think the details are critical to get ASF's
confirmation of support, which is what our Sponsor and the committee need
to get started with this project.
You asked if there is urgency on getting this to the board in July, the
answer is yes.
Outreachy's next round of internships kicks off in September, and I'd like
to have plenty of time to work on ironing out execution details.
You asked if we're looking to request a match in funds. The answer is not
for this round.
Now, I agree that knowing how we'll advertise the opportunity to the
projects is key, so I'd like to ask Myrle to list the following options in
the proposal:
1. Email the project PMCs using Karma (I'm not sure this is how we do
it, sorry)
2. Use the ASF Twitter handle to promote the program regularly (once per
week)
3. Publish the project in the ASF News round which goes out on Fridays
4. Leverage partner's social media channels e.g. Google Open Source,
Outreachy, OSCON, etc.
5. Promote program in D&I lists such this one[1]
This been said, I vote +1 on sending the final version of the proposal
Myrle prepared.
On Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 09:34, Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 7/5/2019 12:27 PM, Sam Ruby wrote:
> > This notification does not contain any such request. As I previously
> > indicated, I will not proceed with IBM's sponsorship unless I get
> > confirmation (lazy or otherwise) that the ASF supports this effort.
> >
> > Coupling this request with other requests and desires that may or may not
> > come to pass is counterproductive. Please don't do that.
>
> If we will be asking for a match for this first round of interns, it's
> relevant. If that is off the table, I agree.
>
> I want us to accept IBM's excellent donation and I want us to have our
> expectations / processes ready to implement this very kind donation.
> Let's work on clarifying them.
>
> --
> Kevin A. McGrail
> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by "Kevin A. McGrail" <km...@apache.org>.
On 7/5/2019 12:27 PM, Sam Ruby wrote:
> This notification does not contain any such request. As I previously
> indicated, I will not proceed with IBM's sponsorship unless I get
> confirmation (lazy or otherwise) that the ASF supports this effort.
>
> Coupling this request with other requests and desires that may or may not
> come to pass is counterproductive. Please don't do that.
If we will be asking for a match for this first round of interns, it's
relevant. If that is off the table, I agree.
I want us to accept IBM's excellent donation and I want us to have our
expectations / processes ready to implement this very kind donation.
Let's work on clarifying them.
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
This notification does not contain any such request. As I previously
indicated, I will not proceed with IBM's sponsorship unless I get
confirmation (lazy or otherwise) that the ASF supports this effort.
Coupling this request with other requests and desires that may or may not
come to pass is counterproductive. Please don't do that.
On Fri, Jul 5, 2019, 12:19 PM Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 7/5/2019 12:05 PM, Sam Ruby wrote:
> > This is not ASF spending. Please honor the request of THIS sponsor.
> 100% agreed! Are we no longer requesting the ASF also identify a
> matching money or not?
>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by "Kevin A. McGrail" <km...@apache.org>.
On 7/5/2019 12:05 PM, Sam Ruby wrote:
> This is not ASF spending. Please honor the request of THIS sponsor.
100% agreed! Are we no longer requesting the ASF also identify a
matching money or not?
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
This is not ASF spending. Please honor the request of THIS sponsor.
On Fri, Jul 5, 2019, 12:02 PM Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 7/5/2019 11:32 AM, Rich Bowen wrote:
> > On 2019/07/05 11:07:41, "Kevin A. McGrail" <km...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >> #3: Define regular intervals, please. It's far too vague.
> >> * In a seperate effort we will be working on and administering a survey
> at
> >> regular intervals.
> > I'm curious why any level of specificity is required on this, or other
> points? This is a volunteer effort, not a paid position. As such, vagueness
> on schedule is a feature, not a bug. As with any of our other volunteer
> efforts, the schedule is "when we get around to it."
>
> I don't view this as a 100% volunteer issue. This is like the spending
> of 19.5K and there have been discussions of requesting a match. So with
> potentially ~$40k going out the door, some measurement of the results is
> required.
>
> If we can't commit to oversight and reporting the results of that
> expenditure because of the volunteer nature, that will be an issue with
> the success of the intern program, wouldn't you think?
>
> Regards,
>
> KAM
>
> --
> Kevin A. McGrail
> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Awasum Yannick <aw...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 5:02 PM Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 7/5/2019 11:32 AM, Rich Bowen wrote:
> > On 2019/07/05 11:07:41, "Kevin A. McGrail" <km...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >> #3: Define regular intervals, please. It's far too vague.
> >> * In a seperate effort we will be working on and administering a survey
> at
> >> regular intervals.
> > I'm curious why any level of specificity is required on this, or other
> points? This is a volunteer effort, not a paid position. As such, vagueness
> on schedule is a feature, not a bug. As with any of our other volunteer
> efforts, the schedule is "when we get around to it."
>
> I don't view this as a 100% volunteer issue. This is like the spending
> of 19.5K and there have been discussions of requesting a match. So with
> potentially ~$40k going out the door, some measurement of the results is
> required.
>
>
This money comes from an external donor not the ASF.
> If we can't commit to oversight and reporting the results of that
> expenditure because of the volunteer nature, that will be an issue with
> the success of the intern program, wouldn't you think?
>
> Regards,
>
> KAM
>
> --
> Kevin A. McGrail
> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by "Kevin A. McGrail" <km...@apache.org>.
On 7/5/2019 11:32 AM, Rich Bowen wrote:
> On 2019/07/05 11:07:41, "Kevin A. McGrail" <km...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> #3: Define regular intervals, please. It's far too vague.
>> * In a seperate effort we will be working on and administering a survey at
>> regular intervals.
> I'm curious why any level of specificity is required on this, or other points? This is a volunteer effort, not a paid position. As such, vagueness on schedule is a feature, not a bug. As with any of our other volunteer efforts, the schedule is "when we get around to it."
I don't view this as a 100% volunteer issue. This is like the spending
of 19.5K and there have been discussions of requesting a match. So with
potentially ~$40k going out the door, some measurement of the results is
required.
If we can't commit to oversight and reporting the results of that
expenditure because of the volunteer nature, that will be an issue with
the success of the intern program, wouldn't you think?
Regards,
KAM
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program
Posted by Rich Bowen <rb...@apache.org>.
On 2019/07/05 11:07:41, "Kevin A. McGrail" <km...@apache.org> wrote:
> #3: Define regular intervals, please. It's far too vague.
> * In a seperate effort we will be working on and administering a survey at
> regular intervals.
I'm curious why any level of specificity is required on this, or other points? This is a volunteer effort, not a paid position. As such, vagueness on schedule is a feature, not a bug. As with any of our other volunteer efforts, the schedule is "when we get around to it."
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by "Kevin A. McGrail" <km...@apache.org>.
On 7/5/2019 5:21 AM, Myrle Krantz wrote:
> Alright, new version. With an added section on measuring.
I see some issues with the lack of specificity. You will set things up
for success by adding this specificity on deliverables. It will set
expectations and help answer hard questions that might otherwise go
unnoticed.
#1: how specifically will you advertise this? It is extremely difficult
to get the word spread on things within the ASF and there are concerns
constantly with overwhelming people using bulk lists. Please discuss
how you envision this happening because I see this as a pretty big hurdle:
* Advertise this opportunity to projects and seek mentors & proposals.
#2: What tool will we use for the feedback? Email? Surveys? Please specify the number of times and the frequency or a minimum such as no less than 3x's during the program.
* Ask interns for feedback on their experiences at various times throughout
the internship.
#3: Define regular intervals, please. It's far too vague.
* In a seperate effort we will be working on and administering a survey at
regular intervals.
regards,
KAM
>
> Best,
> Myrle
>
> -----------------
> Subject: [NOTICE] D&I intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program.
>
> Background: D&I wishes to perform UX research on the experience of members
> of underrepresented groups as they get started with our communities.
> Internships via Outreachy provide us with an excellent opportunity to do so.
>
> A sponsor has offered to provide stipends via Outreachy which will cover 3
> interns. D&I plans to provide the following support:
>
> * Advertise this opportunity to projects and seek mentors & proposals.
> * Manage the project submission process to Outreachy, including filtering
> out unsuitable project proposals, and, if necessary, making a final
> selection of intern-project pairs.
> * Ask interns for feedback on their experiences at various times throughout
> the internship.
> * Provide appropriate and useful feedback to the Foundation and to the
> projects about opportunities to improve how welcoming we are, and what we
> can improve on.
> * Use this as an opportunity to increase awareness and acceptance of the
> ASF in communities which we are currently not reaching as well as we would
> like.
>
> If Outreachy receives funding for more than 3 interns for the ASF, we will
> facilitate the placement of such additional interns with Apache projects,
> but we plan to keep the initial rounds of this project relatively small for
> learning purposes.
>
> We intend to measure the success of this program in the following ways:
> * In a seperate effort we will be working on and administering a survey at
> regular intervals.
> * We will ask participating projects to provide feedback on the program and
> on our resulting documentation.
>
> -----------------
> The road ahead on this proposal is as follows (** indicates where we are
> now):
> * Start a [DISCUSS] thread.
> ** Allow the discussion to run as long as *new* points are being made.
> * Start a [VOTE] thread to run for 72 hours.
> * Submit a [NOTICE] to the board.
> * Wait 72 hours for potential board objections.
> * Get to work.
>
> On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 10:33 AM Naomi S <no...@tumbolia.org> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 05:48, Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> This is just a from-a-peanut-gallery-wish-list (feel free to ignore),
>>> but I'd really love to see
>>> us partner with at least a few orgs like Outreachy simply to be able to
>>> get more
>>> diverse set of opinions on how to approach D&I issue at ASF.
>>>
>> don't want to get ahead of ourselves. but in general, +1
>>
>> a plurality of approaches, organizations, and efforts is important because
>> there are so many intersecting issues, perspectives, and needs
>>
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>.
Alright, new version. With an added section on measuring.
Best,
Myrle
-----------------
Subject: [NOTICE] D&I intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program.
Background: D&I wishes to perform UX research on the experience of members
of underrepresented groups as they get started with our communities.
Internships via Outreachy provide us with an excellent opportunity to do so.
A sponsor has offered to provide stipends via Outreachy which will cover 3
interns. D&I plans to provide the following support:
* Advertise this opportunity to projects and seek mentors & proposals.
* Manage the project submission process to Outreachy, including filtering
out unsuitable project proposals, and, if necessary, making a final
selection of intern-project pairs.
* Ask interns for feedback on their experiences at various times throughout
the internship.
* Provide appropriate and useful feedback to the Foundation and to the
projects about opportunities to improve how welcoming we are, and what we
can improve on.
* Use this as an opportunity to increase awareness and acceptance of the
ASF in communities which we are currently not reaching as well as we would
like.
If Outreachy receives funding for more than 3 interns for the ASF, we will
facilitate the placement of such additional interns with Apache projects,
but we plan to keep the initial rounds of this project relatively small for
learning purposes.
We intend to measure the success of this program in the following ways:
* In a seperate effort we will be working on and administering a survey at
regular intervals.
* We will ask participating projects to provide feedback on the program and
on our resulting documentation.
-----------------
The road ahead on this proposal is as follows (** indicates where we are
now):
* Start a [DISCUSS] thread.
** Allow the discussion to run as long as *new* points are being made.
* Start a [VOTE] thread to run for 72 hours.
* Submit a [NOTICE] to the board.
* Wait 72 hours for potential board objections.
* Get to work.
On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 10:33 AM Naomi S <no...@tumbolia.org> wrote:
> On Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 05:48, Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > This is just a from-a-peanut-gallery-wish-list (feel free to ignore),
> > but I'd really love to see
> > us partner with at least a few orgs like Outreachy simply to be able to
> > get more
> > diverse set of opinions on how to approach D&I issue at ASF.
> >
>
> don't want to get ahead of ourselves. but in general, +1
>
> a plurality of approaches, organizations, and efforts is important because
> there are so many intersecting issues, perspectives, and needs
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Naomi S <no...@tumbolia.org>.
On Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 05:48, Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org> wrote:
>
> This is just a from-a-peanut-gallery-wish-list (feel free to ignore),
> but I'd really love to see
> us partner with at least a few orgs like Outreachy simply to be able to
> get more
> diverse set of opinions on how to approach D&I issue at ASF.
>
don't want to get ahead of ourselves. but in general, +1
a plurality of approaches, organizations, and efforts is important because
there are so many intersecting issues, perspectives, and needs
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>.
On Thu, Jul 4, 2019 at 2:54 AM Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Hey Ross,
>
> You've asked a very important question. Let me take it on, a little bit in
> the style of a balanced score-card. To measure impact, we first have to be
> in agreement about which impact we want to achieve.
+1000!
> Going all the way back to first principles to justify this:
>
> What is the mission of the foundation? "To produce open source software for
> the public good."
> What is the mission of D&I? "To welcome people from diverse backgrounds,
> and bring them into the process of producing open source software for the
> public good."
> What is the purpose of this initiative?
> * "To explicitly express our welcome to people from diverse backgrounds
> via an organization that has good relationships in these communities."
> (Welcoming)
> * "To better understand the obstacles and bright spots in our communities,
> and to document and share that information." (Understanding)
>
> So how do we measure impact for these two items?
> * For Welcoming, we'll find it difficult to narrow down cause and effect
> (as is always the case in marketing efforts). But we can still measure
> trends. To do this we will be working on and administering a survey at
> regular intervals. But that is a separate effort with its own, already
> approved budget. While formulating that survey, we should keep in mind how
> our goals connect to the mission of our Foundation.
Great!
> * For Understanding, we will be producing documentation. One measure is:
> "does the documentation exist, was it read by the projects, and were they
> able to derive value from it?" We can also ask that projects give us
> feedback about whether or not they found the process helpful. This
> information will help us when it comes time to decide if we want to go more
> rounds with Outreachy in the future.
Makes perfect sense.
For both of the above -- personally I'd love for at least a sentence or two
to be included in the draft.
Now, one more question I have is this: the above aims at measuring the program
itself. Is there any way we can also commit to measuring the effectiveness of
Outreachy itself?
To be clear, I have nothing against Outreachy -- I just want to make sure we
don't simply "delegate" D&I to them, but rather view them as (perhaps the best)
one of the group that we may need to actively evaluate. E.g.:
https://blog.capterra.com/diversity-in-tech-11-associations-and-organizations-for-it-professionals-of-color/
This is just a from-a-peanut-gallery-wish-list (feel free to ignore),
but I'd really love to see
us partner with at least a few orgs like Outreachy simply to be able to get more
diverse set of opinions on how to approach D&I issue at ASF.
Thanks,
Roman.
> On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 8:39 PM Ross Gardler
> <Ro...@microsoft.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> > +1 for measuring impact, given that the goal is to learn I had assumed it
> > was there by default. Wouldn't hurt to make it explicit.
> >
> > That said. This is about people funding ASF interns through Outreachy NOT
> > through ASF. There is no "I" for the ASF, in this proposal, other than
> > volunteer energy which is not under the boards control.
> >
> > If a future request asks for an ASF "I" having data would indeed be useful.
> >
> > Roas
> >
> >
> >
> > Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2019 11:33:50 AM
> > To: dev@diversity.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
> > Outreachy intern program
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 11:59 PM Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > Based on the preceding discussion, I'm stripping the first sentence out
> > of
> > > the background section. The notice is confusing though if I strip every
> > > mention of funding, so I've left some bits in there. The latest version
> > is
> > > below.
> > >
> > > I believe the discussion is petering out. I'm going to give it another
> > day
> > > and, if nothing happens, I'll move on to the next step.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Myrle
> > >
> > > -----------------
> > > Subject: [NOTICE] D&I intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program.
> > >
> > > Background: D&I wishes to perform UX research on the experience of
> > members
> > > of underrepresented groups as they get started with our communities.
> > > Internships via Outreachy provide us with an excellent opportunity to do
> > so.
> > >
> > > A sponsor has offered to provide stipends via Outreachy which will cover
> > 3
> > > interns. D&I plans to provide the following support:
> > >
> > > * Advertise this opportunity to projects and seek mentors & proposals.
> > > * Manage the project submission process to Outreachy, including filtering
> > > out unsuitable project proposals, and, if necessary, making a final
> > > selection of intern-project pairs.
> > > * Ask interns for feedback on their experiences at various times
> > throughout
> > > the internship.
> > > * Provide appropriate and useful feedback to the Foundation and to the
> > > projects about opportunities to improve how welcoming we are, and what we
> > > can improve on.
> > > * Use this as an opportunity to increase awareness and acceptance of the
> > > ASF in communities which we are currently not reaching as well as we
> > would
> > > like.
> > >
> > > If Outreachy receives funding for more than 3 interns for the ASF, we
> > will
> > > facilitate the placement of such additional interns with Apache projects,
> > > but we plan to keep the initial rounds of this project relatively small
> > for
> > > learning purposes.
> > >
> > > -----------------
> > > The road ahead on this proposal is as follows (** indicates where we are
> > > now):
> > > * Start a [DISCUSS] thread.
> > > ** Allow the discussion to run as long as *new* points are being made.
> > > * Start a [VOTE] thread to run for 72 hours.
> > > * Submit a [NOTICE] to the board.
> > > * Wait 72 hours for potential board objections.
> > > * Get to work.
> >
> > This is a really good draft, but I have to ask: is this committee
> > planning to put
> > some kind of reasonable metrics in place to evaluate the ROI of this
> > effort?
> >
> > This is very similar to tough questions that Myrle was asking around ROI on
> > spending money for anniversary promotions. In both cases we all know in our
> > gut that these are probably good investments and yet unless you can measure
> > it you can't improve it also applies.
> >
> > Can something tangible be added to the draft so that we don't have to go
> > through
> > the same set of discussions we went through with anniversary
> > promotions expenditure?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Roman.
> >
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>.
Hey Ross,
You've asked a very important question. Let me take it on, a little bit in
the style of a balanced score-card. To measure impact, we first have to be
in agreement about which impact we want to achieve. Going all the way back
to first principles to justify this:
What is the mission of the foundation? "To produce open source software for
the public good."
What is the mission of D&I? "To welcome people from diverse backgrounds,
and bring them into the process of producing open source software for the
public good."
What is the purpose of this initiative?
* "To explicitly express our welcome to people from diverse backgrounds
via an organization that has good relationships in these communities."
(Welcoming)
* "To better understand the obstacles and bright spots in our communities,
and to document and share that information." (Understanding)
So how do we measure impact for these two items?
* For Welcoming, we'll find it difficult to narrow down cause and effect
(as is always the case in marketing efforts). But we can still measure
trends. To do this we will be working on and administering a survey at
regular intervals. But that is a separate effort with its own, already
approved budget. While formulating that survey, we should keep in mind how
our goals connect to the mission of our Foundation.
* For Understanding, we will be producing documentation. One measure is:
"does the documentation exist, was it read by the projects, and were they
able to derive value from it?" We can also ask that projects give us
feedback about whether or not they found the process helpful. This
information will help us when it comes time to decide if we want to go more
rounds with Outreachy in the future.
Best Regards,
Myrle
On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 8:39 PM Ross Gardler
<Ro...@microsoft.com.invalid> wrote:
> +1 for measuring impact, given that the goal is to learn I had assumed it
> was there by default. Wouldn't hurt to make it explicit.
>
> That said. This is about people funding ASF interns through Outreachy NOT
> through ASF. There is no "I" for the ASF, in this proposal, other than
> volunteer energy which is not under the boards control.
>
> If a future request asks for an ASF "I" having data would indeed be useful.
>
> Roas
>
>
>
> Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2019 11:33:50 AM
> To: dev@diversity.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
> Outreachy intern program
>
> On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 11:59 PM Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > Based on the preceding discussion, I'm stripping the first sentence out
> of
> > the background section. The notice is confusing though if I strip every
> > mention of funding, so I've left some bits in there. The latest version
> is
> > below.
> >
> > I believe the discussion is petering out. I'm going to give it another
> day
> > and, if nothing happens, I'll move on to the next step.
> >
> > Best,
> > Myrle
> >
> > -----------------
> > Subject: [NOTICE] D&I intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program.
> >
> > Background: D&I wishes to perform UX research on the experience of
> members
> > of underrepresented groups as they get started with our communities.
> > Internships via Outreachy provide us with an excellent opportunity to do
> so.
> >
> > A sponsor has offered to provide stipends via Outreachy which will cover
> 3
> > interns. D&I plans to provide the following support:
> >
> > * Advertise this opportunity to projects and seek mentors & proposals.
> > * Manage the project submission process to Outreachy, including filtering
> > out unsuitable project proposals, and, if necessary, making a final
> > selection of intern-project pairs.
> > * Ask interns for feedback on their experiences at various times
> throughout
> > the internship.
> > * Provide appropriate and useful feedback to the Foundation and to the
> > projects about opportunities to improve how welcoming we are, and what we
> > can improve on.
> > * Use this as an opportunity to increase awareness and acceptance of the
> > ASF in communities which we are currently not reaching as well as we
> would
> > like.
> >
> > If Outreachy receives funding for more than 3 interns for the ASF, we
> will
> > facilitate the placement of such additional interns with Apache projects,
> > but we plan to keep the initial rounds of this project relatively small
> for
> > learning purposes.
> >
> > -----------------
> > The road ahead on this proposal is as follows (** indicates where we are
> > now):
> > * Start a [DISCUSS] thread.
> > ** Allow the discussion to run as long as *new* points are being made.
> > * Start a [VOTE] thread to run for 72 hours.
> > * Submit a [NOTICE] to the board.
> > * Wait 72 hours for potential board objections.
> > * Get to work.
>
> This is a really good draft, but I have to ask: is this committee
> planning to put
> some kind of reasonable metrics in place to evaluate the ROI of this
> effort?
>
> This is very similar to tough questions that Myrle was asking around ROI on
> spending money for anniversary promotions. In both cases we all know in our
> gut that these are probably good investments and yet unless you can measure
> it you can't improve it also applies.
>
> Can something tangible be added to the draft so that we don't have to go
> through
> the same set of discussions we went through with anniversary
> promotions expenditure?
>
> Thanks,
> Roman.
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Ross Gardler <Ro...@microsoft.com.INVALID>.
+1 for measuring impact, given that the goal is to learn I had assumed it was there by default. Wouldn't hurt to make it explicit.
That said. This is about people funding ASF interns through Outreachy NOT through ASF. There is no "I" for the ASF, in this proposal, other than volunteer energy which is not under the boards control.
If a future request asks for an ASF "I" having data would indeed be useful.
Roas
Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>
________________________________
From: Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2019 11:33:50 AM
To: dev@diversity.apache.org
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program
On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 11:59 PM Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Based on the preceding discussion, I'm stripping the first sentence out of
> the background section. The notice is confusing though if I strip every
> mention of funding, so I've left some bits in there. The latest version is
> below.
>
> I believe the discussion is petering out. I'm going to give it another day
> and, if nothing happens, I'll move on to the next step.
>
> Best,
> Myrle
>
> -----------------
> Subject: [NOTICE] D&I intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program.
>
> Background: D&I wishes to perform UX research on the experience of members
> of underrepresented groups as they get started with our communities.
> Internships via Outreachy provide us with an excellent opportunity to do so.
>
> A sponsor has offered to provide stipends via Outreachy which will cover 3
> interns. D&I plans to provide the following support:
>
> * Advertise this opportunity to projects and seek mentors & proposals.
> * Manage the project submission process to Outreachy, including filtering
> out unsuitable project proposals, and, if necessary, making a final
> selection of intern-project pairs.
> * Ask interns for feedback on their experiences at various times throughout
> the internship.
> * Provide appropriate and useful feedback to the Foundation and to the
> projects about opportunities to improve how welcoming we are, and what we
> can improve on.
> * Use this as an opportunity to increase awareness and acceptance of the
> ASF in communities which we are currently not reaching as well as we would
> like.
>
> If Outreachy receives funding for more than 3 interns for the ASF, we will
> facilitate the placement of such additional interns with Apache projects,
> but we plan to keep the initial rounds of this project relatively small for
> learning purposes.
>
> -----------------
> The road ahead on this proposal is as follows (** indicates where we are
> now):
> * Start a [DISCUSS] thread.
> ** Allow the discussion to run as long as *new* points are being made.
> * Start a [VOTE] thread to run for 72 hours.
> * Submit a [NOTICE] to the board.
> * Wait 72 hours for potential board objections.
> * Get to work.
This is a really good draft, but I have to ask: is this committee
planning to put
some kind of reasonable metrics in place to evaluate the ROI of this effort?
This is very similar to tough questions that Myrle was asking around ROI on
spending money for anniversary promotions. In both cases we all know in our
gut that these are probably good investments and yet unless you can measure
it you can't improve it also applies.
Can something tangible be added to the draft so that we don't have to go through
the same set of discussions we went through with anniversary
promotions expenditure?
Thanks,
Roman.
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>.
On Tue, Jul 2, 2019 at 11:59 PM Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Based on the preceding discussion, I'm stripping the first sentence out of
> the background section. The notice is confusing though if I strip every
> mention of funding, so I've left some bits in there. The latest version is
> below.
>
> I believe the discussion is petering out. I'm going to give it another day
> and, if nothing happens, I'll move on to the next step.
>
> Best,
> Myrle
>
> -----------------
> Subject: [NOTICE] D&I intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program.
>
> Background: D&I wishes to perform UX research on the experience of members
> of underrepresented groups as they get started with our communities.
> Internships via Outreachy provide us with an excellent opportunity to do so.
>
> A sponsor has offered to provide stipends via Outreachy which will cover 3
> interns. D&I plans to provide the following support:
>
> * Advertise this opportunity to projects and seek mentors & proposals.
> * Manage the project submission process to Outreachy, including filtering
> out unsuitable project proposals, and, if necessary, making a final
> selection of intern-project pairs.
> * Ask interns for feedback on their experiences at various times throughout
> the internship.
> * Provide appropriate and useful feedback to the Foundation and to the
> projects about opportunities to improve how welcoming we are, and what we
> can improve on.
> * Use this as an opportunity to increase awareness and acceptance of the
> ASF in communities which we are currently not reaching as well as we would
> like.
>
> If Outreachy receives funding for more than 3 interns for the ASF, we will
> facilitate the placement of such additional interns with Apache projects,
> but we plan to keep the initial rounds of this project relatively small for
> learning purposes.
>
> -----------------
> The road ahead on this proposal is as follows (** indicates where we are
> now):
> * Start a [DISCUSS] thread.
> ** Allow the discussion to run as long as *new* points are being made.
> * Start a [VOTE] thread to run for 72 hours.
> * Submit a [NOTICE] to the board.
> * Wait 72 hours for potential board objections.
> * Get to work.
This is a really good draft, but I have to ask: is this committee
planning to put
some kind of reasonable metrics in place to evaluate the ROI of this effort?
This is very similar to tough questions that Myrle was asking around ROI on
spending money for anniversary promotions. In both cases we all know in our
gut that these are probably good investments and yet unless you can measure
it you can't improve it also applies.
Can something tangible be added to the draft so that we don't have to go through
the same set of discussions we went through with anniversary
promotions expenditure?
Thanks,
Roman.
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>.
Based on the preceding discussion, I'm stripping the first sentence out of
the background section. The notice is confusing though if I strip every
mention of funding, so I've left some bits in there. The latest version is
below.
I believe the discussion is petering out. I'm going to give it another day
and, if nothing happens, I'll move on to the next step.
Best,
Myrle
-----------------
Subject: [NOTICE] D&I intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program.
Background: D&I wishes to perform UX research on the experience of members
of underrepresented groups as they get started with our communities.
Internships via Outreachy provide us with an excellent opportunity to do so.
A sponsor has offered to provide stipends via Outreachy which will cover 3
interns. D&I plans to provide the following support:
* Advertise this opportunity to projects and seek mentors & proposals.
* Manage the project submission process to Outreachy, including filtering
out unsuitable project proposals, and, if necessary, making a final
selection of intern-project pairs.
* Ask interns for feedback on their experiences at various times throughout
the internship.
* Provide appropriate and useful feedback to the Foundation and to the
projects about opportunities to improve how welcoming we are, and what we
can improve on.
* Use this as an opportunity to increase awareness and acceptance of the
ASF in communities which we are currently not reaching as well as we would
like.
If Outreachy receives funding for more than 3 interns for the ASF, we will
facilitate the placement of such additional interns with Apache projects,
but we plan to keep the initial rounds of this project relatively small for
learning purposes.
-----------------
The road ahead on this proposal is as follows (** indicates where we are
now):
* Start a [DISCUSS] thread.
** Allow the discussion to run as long as *new* points are being made.
* Start a [VOTE] thread to run for 72 hours.
* Submit a [NOTICE] to the board.
* Wait 72 hours for potential board objections.
* Get to work.
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Naomi S <no...@tumbolia.org>.
+1 on the draft. thanks, Myrle!!
Re: Polling members (Was: Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I
intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program)
Posted by Naomi S <no...@tumbolia.org>.
apologies for the follow-up email. I pressed send too early
Kevin said:
"Sorry but I am -1000. This is a very bad idea."
that to me is the antithesis of "yes, and..."
I was trying to pull the idea back by putting it into context and setting
some things straight
so, in context, even more strange, that I'm the one you pick on (with words
like "very aggressive", to boot!)
On Thu, 4 Jul 2019 at 10:00, Naomi S <no...@tumbolia.org> wrote:
> Kevin misunderstood the suggestion. I was correcting him
>
> given the conduct of some people on these lists, Greg, I find it
> interesting you've chosen to chastise *me* for the second time
>
> On Thu, 4 Jul 2019 at 08:50, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> For somebody quoting "yes, and...", the response below is very
>> aggressive towards Kevin's opinions. Where is the "yes, and..." in
>> this reply to create an inclusive atmosphere on this mailing list?
>>
>> -g
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 03:19:07PM +0200, Naomi S wrote:
>> > On Wed, 3 Jul 2019 at 15:01, Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > > - It sets up the precedence that every hard decision will wait a year
>> > > for a member referendum
>> > >
>> >
>> > no, it doesn't. I'm saying we might want to wait an additional year
>> > because we, as a committee, have not ourselves decided what we want to
>> do
>> > yet
>> >
>> > - It insults the sitting board that they can't make a tough decision.
>> > >
>> >
>> > not, it doesn't. it would be the board who ultimately rubber stamp the
>> idea
>> > to poll the membership. the D&I committee certainly has no power to
>> enact
>> > such a thing. we would be suggesting this to the board as a possible way
>> > forward, and they can tell us whether they deem it prudent/necessary
>> should
>> > the situation come to pass
>> >
>> > - It infers the need to circumvent a possible negative board decisions
>> > > and instead go to the members to "overrule" them either retro- or
>> > > proactively.
>> > >
>> >
>> > see above
>> >
>> >
>> > > - In the lawyer world there is a quote, never ask a question you don't
>> > > know the answer to. This is a massive gamble.
>> > >
>> >
>> > what are we gambling? as in, what do we lose? the current situation, it
>> > seems is, we won't fund Outreachy. if we ask and the board or the
>> > membership and there is a decision to maintain the status quo, nothing
>> has
>> > changed and nothing has been lost
>> >
>> > conversely, if we don't ask, we get the same outcome. so we have
>> everything
>> > to gain and nothing to lose
>> >
>> >
>> > > - I predict this particular topic of effectively paying for code will
>> > > create partisan divisions with our members who are likely to
>> vehemently
>> > > disagree/agree
>> > >
>> >
>> > same is true for any tough decision. but that doesn't mean we should
>> avoid
>> > making tough decisions
>>
>
Re: Polling members (Was: Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I
intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program)
Posted by Naomi S <no...@tumbolia.org>.
Kevin misunderstood the suggestion. I was correcting him
given the conduct of some people on these lists, Greg, I find it
interesting you've chosen to chastise *me* for the second time
On Thu, 4 Jul 2019 at 08:50, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> For somebody quoting "yes, and...", the response below is very
> aggressive towards Kevin's opinions. Where is the "yes, and..." in
> this reply to create an inclusive atmosphere on this mailing list?
>
> -g
>
> On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 03:19:07PM +0200, Naomi S wrote:
> > On Wed, 3 Jul 2019 at 15:01, Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > - It sets up the precedence that every hard decision will wait a year
> > > for a member referendum
> > >
> >
> > no, it doesn't. I'm saying we might want to wait an additional year
> > because we, as a committee, have not ourselves decided what we want to do
> > yet
> >
> > - It insults the sitting board that they can't make a tough decision.
> > >
> >
> > not, it doesn't. it would be the board who ultimately rubber stamp the
> idea
> > to poll the membership. the D&I committee certainly has no power to enact
> > such a thing. we would be suggesting this to the board as a possible way
> > forward, and they can tell us whether they deem it prudent/necessary
> should
> > the situation come to pass
> >
> > - It infers the need to circumvent a possible negative board decisions
> > > and instead go to the members to "overrule" them either retro- or
> > > proactively.
> > >
> >
> > see above
> >
> >
> > > - In the lawyer world there is a quote, never ask a question you don't
> > > know the answer to. This is a massive gamble.
> > >
> >
> > what are we gambling? as in, what do we lose? the current situation, it
> > seems is, we won't fund Outreachy. if we ask and the board or the
> > membership and there is a decision to maintain the status quo, nothing
> has
> > changed and nothing has been lost
> >
> > conversely, if we don't ask, we get the same outcome. so we have
> everything
> > to gain and nothing to lose
> >
> >
> > > - I predict this particular topic of effectively paying for code will
> > > create partisan divisions with our members who are likely to vehemently
> > > disagree/agree
> > >
> >
> > same is true for any tough decision. but that doesn't mean we should
> avoid
> > making tough decisions
>
Re: Polling members (Was: Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I
intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program)
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
For somebody quoting "yes, and...", the response below is very
aggressive towards Kevin's opinions. Where is the "yes, and..." in
this reply to create an inclusive atmosphere on this mailing list?
-g
On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 03:19:07PM +0200, Naomi S wrote:
> On Wed, 3 Jul 2019 at 15:01, Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> >
> > - It sets up the precedence that every hard decision will wait a year
> > for a member referendum
> >
>
> no, it doesn't. I'm saying we might want to wait an additional year
> because we, as a committee, have not ourselves decided what we want to do
> yet
>
> - It insults the sitting board that they can't make a tough decision.
> >
>
> not, it doesn't. it would be the board who ultimately rubber stamp the idea
> to poll the membership. the D&I committee certainly has no power to enact
> such a thing. we would be suggesting this to the board as a possible way
> forward, and they can tell us whether they deem it prudent/necessary should
> the situation come to pass
>
> - It infers the need to circumvent a possible negative board decisions
> > and instead go to the members to "overrule" them either retro- or
> > proactively.
> >
>
> see above
>
>
> > - In the lawyer world there is a quote, never ask a question you don't
> > know the answer to. This is a massive gamble.
> >
>
> what are we gambling? as in, what do we lose? the current situation, it
> seems is, we won't fund Outreachy. if we ask and the board or the
> membership and there is a decision to maintain the status quo, nothing has
> changed and nothing has been lost
>
> conversely, if we don't ask, we get the same outcome. so we have everything
> to gain and nothing to lose
>
>
> > - I predict this particular topic of effectively paying for code will
> > create partisan divisions with our members who are likely to vehemently
> > disagree/agree
> >
>
> same is true for any tough decision. but that doesn't mean we should avoid
> making tough decisions
Re: Polling members (Was: Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I
intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program)
Posted by Naomi S <no...@tumbolia.org>.
On Wed, 3 Jul 2019 at 15:01, Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> - It sets up the precedence that every hard decision will wait a year
> for a member referendum
>
no, it doesn't. I'm saying we might want to wait an additional year
because we, as a committee, have not ourselves decided what we want to do
yet
- It insults the sitting board that they can't make a tough decision.
>
not, it doesn't. it would be the board who ultimately rubber stamp the idea
to poll the membership. the D&I committee certainly has no power to enact
such a thing. we would be suggesting this to the board as a possible way
forward, and they can tell us whether they deem it prudent/necessary should
the situation come to pass
- It infers the need to circumvent a possible negative board decisions
> and instead go to the members to "overrule" them either retro- or
> proactively.
>
see above
> - In the lawyer world there is a quote, never ask a question you don't
> know the answer to. This is a massive gamble.
>
what are we gambling? as in, what do we lose? the current situation, it
seems is, we won't fund Outreachy. if we ask and the board or the
membership and there is a decision to maintain the status quo, nothing has
changed and nothing has been lost
conversely, if we don't ask, we get the same outcome. so we have everything
to gain and nothing to lose
> - I predict this particular topic of effectively paying for code will
> create partisan divisions with our members who are likely to vehemently
> disagree/agree
>
same is true for any tough decision. but that doesn't mean we should avoid
making tough decisions
Re: Polling members (Was: Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I
intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program)
Posted by "Kevin A. McGrail" <km...@apache.org>.
On 7/3/2019 8:26 AM, Naomi S wrote:
> splitting this off to keep Myrle's thread on topic
+1 way too much thread hijacking. Please follow Naomi's example and
fork the threads.
> On Wed, 3 Jul 2019 at 13:49, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>
>> We have the technology (via STeVe) to have a non-binding poll the
>> membership. We will have an election coming up in March-ish 2020.
>> The decision to fund interns from ASF funds is a binary one.
>>
>> My sense is that the board has been asked to make a difficult
>> decision, and is not ready yet to do so. We however have a path
>> forward that will give us more data, and we can put in place a plan to
>> poll the membership for guidance on the matter. We can ask those that
>> wish to do so to prepare a position paper (one each, pro and con) that
>> can guide the membership in casting their votes.
>>
> this sounds like a good idea to me
>
> I wouldn't' necessarily set March as the deadline. as a committee, we might
> not feel ready to make that move at that point. depends what our experience
> is like with Outreachy and what sorts of results we can show
>
> but in general, this seems like a reasonable way forward, should the
> committee decide that we want to pursue this avenue once again with a bit
> more experience under our belt
>
Sorry but I am -1000. This is a very bad idea. Off the cuff, here are
some of my negatives:
- It sets up the precedence that every hard decision will wait a year
for a member referendum
- It insults the sitting board that they can't make a tough decision.
- It infers the need to circumvent a possible negative board decisions
and instead go to the members to "overrule" them either retro- or
proactively.
- In the lawyer world there is a quote, never ask a question you don't
know the answer to. This is a massive gamble.
- I predict this particular topic of effectively paying for code will
create partisan divisions with our members who are likely to vehemently
disagree/agree
But that said, I agree this would be a great question to add to the
voluntary board candidate questionnaire for next year.
Regards,
KAM
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
Re: Polling members (Was: Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I
intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program)
Posted by Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>.
To everyone:
Do y'all just wake up and decide "I'm going to spend my free time today
bickering on a public mailing list?"
Does this feel like an inclusive list with these kinds of interaction?
On Thu, Jul 4, 2019 at 04:08 Naomi S <no...@tumbolia.org> wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Jul 2019 at 13:03, Jim Jagielski <ji...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> >
> > I really wish that some people on this cmmt would focus on the mission
> and
> > charter of this effort. This cmmt should work on directly helping those
> > that this cmmt is empowered to help
> >
>
> patches welcome
>
Re: Polling members (Was: Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I
intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program)
Posted by Naomi S <no...@tumbolia.org>.
On Thu, 4 Jul 2019 at 13:03, Jim Jagielski <ji...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> I really wish that some people on this cmmt would focus on the mission and
> charter of this effort. This cmmt should work on directly helping those
> that this cmmt is empowered to help
>
patches welcome
Re: Polling members (Was: Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program)
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@apache.org>.
Personally, I think that this is way out of D&I's bally-wick. Why is this a D&I issue? What is this obsession on this policy which affects D&I not-a-whit yet directly impacts every project PMC and this foundation to the core? What do some members of the cmmt feel the need to focus on this singular issue in exclusion to everything else?
I am sorry you don't like this policy... but some policies exist, and should exist, whether you like them or not. I really wish that some people on this cmmt would focus on the mission and charter of this effort. This cmmt should work on directly helping those that this cmmt is empowered to help, instead of using this cmmt to try to change a policy that bothers them personally (I also wonder *WHY* it bothers them personally).
Why some people have chosen this to be a hill to stake this cmmt's energies and reputation on is beyond me. In a cmmt which is all about Inclusion, this clear desire to create venomous division within the membership, and even this cmmt, is mind boggling. What is the fascination w/ this scorched Earth process? Is this really how this cmmt intends to handle the delicate business of changing hearts and minds? If so, I suggest that they rethink it.
PS: Also recall that it is up to the BOARD on whether or not to bring such a change up for consideration by the members. Of course, you are perfectly w/i your rights as a member to petition that.
On 2019/07/03 12:26:36, Naomi S <no...@tumbolia.org> wrote:
> splitting this off to keep Myrle's thread on topic
>
> On Wed, 3 Jul 2019 at 13:49, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > We have the technology (via STeVe) to have a non-binding poll the
> > membership. We will have an election coming up in March-ish 2020.
> > The decision to fund interns from ASF funds is a binary one.
> >
> > My sense is that the board has been asked to make a difficult
> > decision, and is not ready yet to do so. We however have a path
> > forward that will give us more data, and we can put in place a plan to
> > poll the membership for guidance on the matter. We can ask those that
> > wish to do so to prepare a position paper (one each, pro and con) that
> > can guide the membership in casting their votes.
> >
>
> this sounds like a good idea to me
>
> I wouldn't' necessarily set March as the deadline. as a committee, we might
> not feel ready to make that move at that point. depends what our experience
> is like with Outreachy and what sorts of results we can show
>
> but in general, this seems like a reasonable way forward, should the
> committee decide that we want to pursue this avenue once again with a bit
> more experience under our belt
>
Re: Polling members (Was: Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I
intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program)
Posted by Ross Gardler <Ro...@microsoft.com.INVALID>.
+1
---
Sent from my phone, likely while waking down the stars and having a conversation. Sorry about my carelessness, I blame the machines.
________________________________
From: Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, July 5, 2019 11:23:29 PM
To: dev@diversity.apache.org
Subject: Re: Polling members (Was: Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program)
I might evn go so far as to suggest that the question be worded something
like "would the members be willing to have ASF support temporary
internships for members of disadvantaged communities. Such interns might
write some code as part of their internship."
The point of the internship really is the experience. Putting that first
and the code second is more accurate and less inflammatory.
On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 12:23 PM Sage Sharp <sh...@otter.technology> wrote:
> I think it would be useful to limit the poll to whether the ASF should pay
> for software in order to support people from under-represented groups or
> make ASF communities more accessible or inclusive. It should not be about
> the larger question of whether the ASF should pay for software at all.
>
> Sage Sharp
> Outreachy Organizer
>
> On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 6:57 PM Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On 7/3/2019 5:26 AM, Naomi S wrote:
> > > splitting this off to keep Myrle's thread on topic
> > >
> > > On Wed, 3 Jul 2019 at 13:49, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >> We have the technology (via STeVe) to have a non-binding poll the
> > >> membership. We will have an election coming up in March-ish 2020.
> > >> The decision to fund interns from ASF funds is a binary one.
> > >>
> > >> My sense is that the board has been asked to make a difficult
> > >> decision, and is not ready yet to do so. We however have a path
> > >> forward that will give us more data, and we can put in place a plan to
> > >> poll the membership for guidance on the matter. We can ask those that
> > >> wish to do so to prepare a position paper (one each, pro and con) that
> > >> can guide the membership in casting their votes.
> > >>
> > >
> > > this sounds like a good idea to me
> > >
> > > I wouldn't' necessarily set March as the deadline. as a committee, we
> > might
> > > not feel ready to make that move at that point. depends what our
> > experience
> > > is like with Outreachy and what sorts of results we can show
> > >
> > > but in general, this seems like a reasonable way forward, should the
> > > committee decide that we want to pursue this avenue once again with a
> bit
> > > more experience under our belt
> > >
> >
> > I think there is a big picture question that is suitable for a
> > non-binding member vote:
> >
> > Should not paying for development be considered a tool for the purpose
> > of developing open source software for the public good, with the option
> > for the board to make exceptions, or an axiom with no exceptions or
> > adjustments possible?
> >
> > Assuming it is a tool, not an axiom, so exceptions are possible, I think
> > the board, not the membership, is the proper body for evaluating the
> > detailed merits of a particular case for an exception or adjustment.
> >
> > This approach also removes March as a possible deadline for D&I. If the
> > vote goes for the tool view, D&I could present a case for an exception
> > to any board meeting. If it goes for axiom, D&I will know where they
> > stand, and that exceptions are very unlikely.
> >
> > ---
> > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avg.com&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cb385eb70255045f622d908d70197609b%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C1%7C636979621991044726&sdata=9AzmhsktiU%2B1VobQxREL%2BWI0uKcvyQnT2JrS%2BpVGZl4%3D&reserved=0
> >
> >
>
Re: Polling members (Was: Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I
intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program)
Posted by Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>.
I might evn go so far as to suggest that the question be worded something
like "would the members be willing to have ASF support temporary
internships for members of disadvantaged communities. Such interns might
write some code as part of their internship."
The point of the internship really is the experience. Putting that first
and the code second is more accurate and less inflammatory.
On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 12:23 PM Sage Sharp <sh...@otter.technology> wrote:
> I think it would be useful to limit the poll to whether the ASF should pay
> for software in order to support people from under-represented groups or
> make ASF communities more accessible or inclusive. It should not be about
> the larger question of whether the ASF should pay for software at all.
>
> Sage Sharp
> Outreachy Organizer
>
> On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 6:57 PM Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On 7/3/2019 5:26 AM, Naomi S wrote:
> > > splitting this off to keep Myrle's thread on topic
> > >
> > > On Wed, 3 Jul 2019 at 13:49, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >> We have the technology (via STeVe) to have a non-binding poll the
> > >> membership. We will have an election coming up in March-ish 2020.
> > >> The decision to fund interns from ASF funds is a binary one.
> > >>
> > >> My sense is that the board has been asked to make a difficult
> > >> decision, and is not ready yet to do so. We however have a path
> > >> forward that will give us more data, and we can put in place a plan to
> > >> poll the membership for guidance on the matter. We can ask those that
> > >> wish to do so to prepare a position paper (one each, pro and con) that
> > >> can guide the membership in casting their votes.
> > >>
> > >
> > > this sounds like a good idea to me
> > >
> > > I wouldn't' necessarily set March as the deadline. as a committee, we
> > might
> > > not feel ready to make that move at that point. depends what our
> > experience
> > > is like with Outreachy and what sorts of results we can show
> > >
> > > but in general, this seems like a reasonable way forward, should the
> > > committee decide that we want to pursue this avenue once again with a
> bit
> > > more experience under our belt
> > >
> >
> > I think there is a big picture question that is suitable for a
> > non-binding member vote:
> >
> > Should not paying for development be considered a tool for the purpose
> > of developing open source software for the public good, with the option
> > for the board to make exceptions, or an axiom with no exceptions or
> > adjustments possible?
> >
> > Assuming it is a tool, not an axiom, so exceptions are possible, I think
> > the board, not the membership, is the proper body for evaluating the
> > detailed merits of a particular case for an exception or adjustment.
> >
> > This approach also removes March as a possible deadline for D&I. If the
> > vote goes for the tool view, D&I could present a case for an exception
> > to any board meeting. If it goes for axiom, D&I will know where they
> > stand, and that exceptions are very unlikely.
> >
> > ---
> > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> > https://www.avg.com
> >
> >
>
Re: Polling members (Was: Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I
intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program)
Posted by Sage Sharp <sh...@otter.technology>.
I think it would be useful to limit the poll to whether the ASF should pay
for software in order to support people from under-represented groups or
make ASF communities more accessible or inclusive. It should not be about
the larger question of whether the ASF should pay for software at all.
Sage Sharp
Outreachy Organizer
On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 6:57 PM Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
>
>
> On 7/3/2019 5:26 AM, Naomi S wrote:
> > splitting this off to keep Myrle's thread on topic
> >
> > On Wed, 3 Jul 2019 at 13:49, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> We have the technology (via STeVe) to have a non-binding poll the
> >> membership. We will have an election coming up in March-ish 2020.
> >> The decision to fund interns from ASF funds is a binary one.
> >>
> >> My sense is that the board has been asked to make a difficult
> >> decision, and is not ready yet to do so. We however have a path
> >> forward that will give us more data, and we can put in place a plan to
> >> poll the membership for guidance on the matter. We can ask those that
> >> wish to do so to prepare a position paper (one each, pro and con) that
> >> can guide the membership in casting their votes.
> >>
> >
> > this sounds like a good idea to me
> >
> > I wouldn't' necessarily set March as the deadline. as a committee, we
> might
> > not feel ready to make that move at that point. depends what our
> experience
> > is like with Outreachy and what sorts of results we can show
> >
> > but in general, this seems like a reasonable way forward, should the
> > committee decide that we want to pursue this avenue once again with a bit
> > more experience under our belt
> >
>
> I think there is a big picture question that is suitable for a
> non-binding member vote:
>
> Should not paying for development be considered a tool for the purpose
> of developing open source software for the public good, with the option
> for the board to make exceptions, or an axiom with no exceptions or
> adjustments possible?
>
> Assuming it is a tool, not an axiom, so exceptions are possible, I think
> the board, not the membership, is the proper body for evaluating the
> detailed merits of a particular case for an exception or adjustment.
>
> This approach also removes March as a possible deadline for D&I. If the
> vote goes for the tool view, D&I could present a case for an exception
> to any board meeting. If it goes for axiom, D&I will know where they
> stand, and that exceptions are very unlikely.
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> https://www.avg.com
>
>
Re: Polling members (Was: Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I
intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program)
Posted by Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org>.
On 7/3/2019 5:26 AM, Naomi S wrote:
> splitting this off to keep Myrle's thread on topic
>
> On Wed, 3 Jul 2019 at 13:49, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> We have the technology (via STeVe) to have a non-binding poll the
>> membership. We will have an election coming up in March-ish 2020.
>> The decision to fund interns from ASF funds is a binary one.
>>
>> My sense is that the board has been asked to make a difficult
>> decision, and is not ready yet to do so. We however have a path
>> forward that will give us more data, and we can put in place a plan to
>> poll the membership for guidance on the matter. We can ask those that
>> wish to do so to prepare a position paper (one each, pro and con) that
>> can guide the membership in casting their votes.
>>
>
> this sounds like a good idea to me
>
> I wouldn't' necessarily set March as the deadline. as a committee, we might
> not feel ready to make that move at that point. depends what our experience
> is like with Outreachy and what sorts of results we can show
>
> but in general, this seems like a reasonable way forward, should the
> committee decide that we want to pursue this avenue once again with a bit
> more experience under our belt
>
I think there is a big picture question that is suitable for a
non-binding member vote:
Should not paying for development be considered a tool for the purpose
of developing open source software for the public good, with the option
for the board to make exceptions, or an axiom with no exceptions or
adjustments possible?
Assuming it is a tool, not an axiom, so exceptions are possible, I think
the board, not the membership, is the proper body for evaluating the
detailed merits of a particular case for an exception or adjustment.
This approach also removes March as a possible deadline for D&I. If the
vote goes for the tool view, D&I could present a case for an exception
to any board meeting. If it goes for axiom, D&I will know where they
stand, and that exceptions are very unlikely.
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
Polling members (Was: Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends
to coordinate an Outreachy intern program)
Posted by Naomi S <no...@tumbolia.org>.
splitting this off to keep Myrle's thread on topic
On Wed, 3 Jul 2019 at 13:49, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>
> We have the technology (via STeVe) to have a non-binding poll the
> membership. We will have an election coming up in March-ish 2020.
> The decision to fund interns from ASF funds is a binary one.
>
> My sense is that the board has been asked to make a difficult
> decision, and is not ready yet to do so. We however have a path
> forward that will give us more data, and we can put in place a plan to
> poll the membership for guidance on the matter. We can ask those that
> wish to do so to prepare a position paper (one each, pro and con) that
> can guide the membership in casting their votes.
>
this sounds like a good idea to me
I wouldn't' necessarily set March as the deadline. as a committee, we might
not feel ready to make that move at that point. depends what our experience
is like with Outreachy and what sorts of results we can show
but in general, this seems like a reasonable way forward, should the
committee decide that we want to pursue this avenue once again with a bit
more experience under our belt
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 7:05 AM Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jul 01, 2019 at 06:41:13PM +0000, Ross Gardler wrote:
> > Thanks for the additional background Sam. With respect to "There are
> > some people with concerns that haven't been expressed on this list.
> > Some of those concerns may lead to the conclusion that having sponsors
> > acting independently of ASF wishes, however well meaning they are in
> > doing so, may lead to problematic results." - all I can say if "if it
> > didn't happen on the list, it didn't happen".
>
> Not all interested parties are subscribed to this list. Those with
> concerns may be waiting for proposals to be brought before the Board,
> rather than getting involved with the sausage-making, here.
>
> There is a lot of grey area. "If you care, subscribe" "It has been
> delegated, so don't wait for a proposal, go to the source" "It is a
> [NOTICE] of action, not an [RFC] so feedback from outside is not on
> the menu"
I believe the intent is to seek lazy consensus instead of approval.
I'll also note that this notice isn't asking the board for anything,
but is being prepared in public view, will be shared with the board,
and an opportunity to provide feedback will be provided before action
is taken.
I support the idea of such notices as a path forward. It strikes the
right balance between oversight and JFDI. And does so without forcing
the board to take a vote.
> There are clearly sensitivities. I believe Sam has the right of it:
> approach cautiously, while listening. Personally, I disagree with the
> concept of "must be subscribed and involved", since we've always said
> Members can observe and participate at their discretion.
>
> Personally, I have no disagreement with Myrle's proposal. My comment
> here is on approach: whether it will be a fait d'acompli [NOTICE] to
> board@ ... or whether other groups may have constructive feedback
> (eg. members@ or somesuch; dunno). Not sure on the inclusion.
Would this following help?
We have the technology (via STeVe) to have a non-binding poll the
membership. We will have an election coming up in March-ish 2020.
The decision to fund interns from ASF funds is a binary one.
My sense is that the board has been asked to make a difficult
decision, and is not ready yet to do so. We however have a path
forward that will give us more data, and we can put in place a plan to
poll the membership for guidance on the matter. We can ask those that
wish to do so to prepare a position paper (one each, pro and con) that
can guide the membership in casting their votes.
> Cheers,
> -g
- Sam Ruby
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Jul 01, 2019 at 06:41:13PM +0000, Ross Gardler wrote:
> Thanks for the additional background Sam. With respect to "There are
> some people with concerns that haven't been expressed on this list.
> Some of those concerns may lead to the conclusion that having sponsors
> acting independently of ASF wishes, however well meaning they are in
> doing so, may lead to problematic results." - all I can say if "if it
> didn't happen on the list, it didn't happen".
Not all interested parties are subscribed to this list. Those with
concerns may be waiting for proposals to be brought before the Board,
rather than getting involved with the sausage-making, here.
There is a lot of grey area. "If you care, subscribe" "It has been
delegated, so don't wait for a proposal, go to the source" "It is a
[NOTICE] of action, not an [RFC] so feedback from outside is not on
the menu"
There are clearly sensitivities. I believe Sam has the right of it:
approach cautiously, while listening. Personally, I disagree with the
concept of "must be subscribed and involved", since we've always said
Members can observe and participate at their discretion.
Personally, I have no disagreement with Myrle's proposal. My comment
here is on approach: whether it will be a fait d'acompli [NOTICE] to
board@ ... or whether other groups may have constructive feedback
(eg. members@ or somesuch; dunno). Not sure on the inclusion.
Cheers,
-g
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Ross Gardler <Ro...@microsoft.com.INVALID>.
Thanks for the additional background Sam. With respect to "There are some people with concerns that haven't been expressed on this list. Some of those concerns may lead to the conclusion that having sponsors acting independently of ASF wishes, however well meaning they are in doing so, may lead to problematic results." - all I can say if "if it didn't happen on the list, it didn't happen".
Should that concern be raised here then I'll be happy to consider it in the context of this proposed board notification. In the absence of such an on-list object I appreciate your willingness to accept an explicit lazy consensus as is the Apache Way.
Ross
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
Speaking as the sponsor in question, I don't need the parts of the
proposal that Ross is concerned about, but let me explain the
background which led Myrle to insert that text.
What I seek to avoid is the ASF opposing this sponsorship after the
check has been sent to Outreachy.
There are some people with concerns that haven't been expressed on
this list. Some of those concerns may lead to the conclusion that
having sponsors acting independently of ASF wishes, however well
meaning they are in doing so, may lead to problematic results.
All I am seeking is some sort of confirmation that the ASF is aware of
the intent to donate and that there is consensus that it will make an
effort to seek projects and mentors. Lazy consensus is sufficient for
my purposes.
- Sam Ruby
On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 12:40 PM Ross Gardler
<Ro...@microsoft.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> Feel free to keep the funding reference, but if I were to be donating money to Outreachy all I would care about is that the ASF were configured to match mentors to interns on the terms Outreachy set. Such a donor would not require ASF board approval and, frankly, would likely be upset at the idea that the ASF board can dictate how a charitable donation to another foundation can be used.
>
> Why is this important? Because your first line says "D&I has been approached by a potential sponsor who wishes to support the participation of Outreachy in ASF projects by donating directly to Outreachy.". What is there is another sponsor who has not approached the ASF? I really think you should just drop that first sentence. This is not about the approach of a sponsor, this is about your second sentence "D&I wishes to perform UX research on the experience of members of underrepresented groups as they get started with our communities. "
>
> Furthermore, you say "currently offered". What if there is another Outreachy sponsor who has not "offered" anything to the ASF?
>
> I appreciate you are trying to accommodate a specific offer from a specific sponsor but I believe you are unnecessarily narrowing the opportunity in doing so. I believe the existence of a sponsor is irrelevant to what we are notifying the board of. The only thing that I believe the board can say yay or nay to (in the above scenario) is whether they are willing to accept the idea of D&I building a bridge between Outreachy and ASF so that Outreachy interns can find ASF mentors.
>
> All that said, if you really want to keep it in there then go ahead.
>
> Ross
>
> ________________________________
> From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
> Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 8:54 AM
> To: dev@diversity.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program
>
> Thank you for the patch Ted. I made a minor adjustment to it because
> Outreachy receives funding for interns for other foundations all the time.
> Integrated, that looks like this. Please check.
>
> I'm rejecting suggestions to remove mentions of funding altogether because
> the sponsor needs some kind of reassurance that the board accepts the use
> of their funds on behalf of the ASF, even if they are being donated
> directly to Outreachy. I'm also rejecting those suggestions because I
> think use of funding through third parties but directed by us does have
> some potential dangers regardless of whether the funding reaches ASF
> accounts, and which require remediation and which I do not wish to obscure.
>
> Best,
> Myrle
>
> -----------------
> Subject: [NOTICE] D&I intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program.
>
> Background: D&I has been approached by a potential sponsor who wishes to
> support the participation of Outreachy in ASF projects by donating directly
> to Outreachy. D&I wishes to perform UX research on the experience of
> members of underrepresented groups as they get started with our
> communities. This offer provides us with an excellent opportunity to do so.
>
> Currently offered funding levels are enough to cover 3 interns. D&I plans
> to accept this offer, and provide the following support:
>
> * Advertise this opportunity to projects and seek proposals.
> * Manage the project submission process to Outreachy, including filtering
> out unsuitable project proposals, and, if necessary, making a final
> selection of intern-project pairs.
> * Ask interns for feedback on their experiences at various times throughout
> the internship.
> * Provide appropriate and useful feedback to the Foundation and to the
> projects about opportunities to improve how welcoming we are, and what we
> can improve on.
> * Use this as an opportunity to increase awareness and acceptance of the
> ASF in communities which we are currently not reaching as well as we would
> like.
>
> If Outreachy receives funding for more than 3 interns for the ASF, we will
> facilitate the placement of such additional interns with Apache projects,
> but we
> plan to keep the initial rounds of this project relatively small for
> learning purposes.
>
> -----------------
> The road ahead on this proposal is as follows (** indicates where we are
> now):
> * Start a [DISCUSS] thread.
> ** Allow the discussion to run as long as *new* points are being made.
> * Start a [VOTE] thread to run for 72 hours.
> * Submit a [NOTICE] to the board.
> * Wait 72 hours for potential board objections.
> * Get to work.
>
> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 5:36 PM Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 1:13 AM Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > > ...
> > >
> > > If D&I finds funding for more than 3 interns, we intend to accept it, but
> > > we plan to keep the initial rounds of this project relatively small for
> > > learning purposes.
> > >
> >
> > Let's fix this wording to avoid unnecessary allergic responses.
> >
> > The problem and risk that I see here is that D&I is not accepting any
> > funding for interns. Outreachy is. Saying the word "accept" with respect to
> > this funding may lead some to think that D&I is challenging, uhhmmm, core
> > beliefs (hah! didn't say it). In fact, I do not think that you intend to do
> > such and I, for one, would rather avoid an exhausting and pointless
> > argument of the form "You must not do this! ... We don't plan to ... But
> > you must not! ... We aren't doing it ... *ad infinitum*".
> >
> > How about this for alternative language that makes the actual intent more
> > clear:
> >
> > *If Outreachy receives funding for more than 3 interns, we will facilitate
> > the placement of such additional interns with **Apache projects, but we
> > plan to keep the initial rounds of this project *
> > *relatively small for **learning purposes.*
> >
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Ross Gardler <Ro...@microsoft.com.INVALID>.
Feel free to keep the funding reference, but if I were to be donating money to Outreachy all I would care about is that the ASF were configured to match mentors to interns on the terms Outreachy set. Such a donor would not require ASF board approval and, frankly, would likely be upset at the idea that the ASF board can dictate how a charitable donation to another foundation can be used.
Why is this important? Because your first line says "D&I has been approached by a potential sponsor who wishes to support the participation of Outreachy in ASF projects by donating directly to Outreachy.". What is there is another sponsor who has not approached the ASF? I really think you should just drop that first sentence. This is not about the approach of a sponsor, this is about your second sentence "D&I wishes to perform UX research on the experience of members of underrepresented groups as they get started with our communities. "
Furthermore, you say "currently offered". What if there is another Outreachy sponsor who has not "offered" anything to the ASF?
I appreciate you are trying to accommodate a specific offer from a specific sponsor but I believe you are unnecessarily narrowing the opportunity in doing so. I believe the existence of a sponsor is irrelevant to what we are notifying the board of. The only thing that I believe the board can say yay or nay to (in the above scenario) is whether they are willing to accept the idea of D&I building a bridge between Outreachy and ASF so that Outreachy interns can find ASF mentors.
All that said, if you really want to keep it in there then go ahead.
Ross
________________________________
From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 8:54 AM
To: dev@diversity.apache.org
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program
Thank you for the patch Ted. I made a minor adjustment to it because
Outreachy receives funding for interns for other foundations all the time.
Integrated, that looks like this. Please check.
I'm rejecting suggestions to remove mentions of funding altogether because
the sponsor needs some kind of reassurance that the board accepts the use
of their funds on behalf of the ASF, even if they are being donated
directly to Outreachy. I'm also rejecting those suggestions because I
think use of funding through third parties but directed by us does have
some potential dangers regardless of whether the funding reaches ASF
accounts, and which require remediation and which I do not wish to obscure.
Best,
Myrle
-----------------
Subject: [NOTICE] D&I intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program.
Background: D&I has been approached by a potential sponsor who wishes to
support the participation of Outreachy in ASF projects by donating directly
to Outreachy. D&I wishes to perform UX research on the experience of
members of underrepresented groups as they get started with our
communities. This offer provides us with an excellent opportunity to do so.
Currently offered funding levels are enough to cover 3 interns. D&I plans
to accept this offer, and provide the following support:
* Advertise this opportunity to projects and seek proposals.
* Manage the project submission process to Outreachy, including filtering
out unsuitable project proposals, and, if necessary, making a final
selection of intern-project pairs.
* Ask interns for feedback on their experiences at various times throughout
the internship.
* Provide appropriate and useful feedback to the Foundation and to the
projects about opportunities to improve how welcoming we are, and what we
can improve on.
* Use this as an opportunity to increase awareness and acceptance of the
ASF in communities which we are currently not reaching as well as we would
like.
If Outreachy receives funding for more than 3 interns for the ASF, we will
facilitate the placement of such additional interns with Apache projects,
but we
plan to keep the initial rounds of this project relatively small for
learning purposes.
-----------------
The road ahead on this proposal is as follows (** indicates where we are
now):
* Start a [DISCUSS] thread.
** Allow the discussion to run as long as *new* points are being made.
* Start a [VOTE] thread to run for 72 hours.
* Submit a [NOTICE] to the board.
* Wait 72 hours for potential board objections.
* Get to work.
On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 5:36 PM Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 1:13 AM Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > ...
> >
> > If D&I finds funding for more than 3 interns, we intend to accept it, but
> > we plan to keep the initial rounds of this project relatively small for
> > learning purposes.
> >
>
> Let's fix this wording to avoid unnecessary allergic responses.
>
> The problem and risk that I see here is that D&I is not accepting any
> funding for interns. Outreachy is. Saying the word "accept" with respect to
> this funding may lead some to think that D&I is challenging, uhhmmm, core
> beliefs (hah! didn't say it). In fact, I do not think that you intend to do
> such and I, for one, would rather avoid an exhausting and pointless
> argument of the form "You must not do this! ... We don't plan to ... But
> you must not! ... We aren't doing it ... *ad infinitum*".
>
> How about this for alternative language that makes the actual intent more
> clear:
>
> *If Outreachy receives funding for more than 3 interns, we will facilitate
> the placement of such additional interns with **Apache projects, but we
> plan to keep the initial rounds of this project *
> *relatively small for **learning purposes.*
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>.
Thank you for the patch Ted. I made a minor adjustment to it because
Outreachy receives funding for interns for other foundations all the time.
Integrated, that looks like this. Please check.
I'm rejecting suggestions to remove mentions of funding altogether because
the sponsor needs some kind of reassurance that the board accepts the use
of their funds on behalf of the ASF, even if they are being donated
directly to Outreachy. I'm also rejecting those suggestions because I
think use of funding through third parties but directed by us does have
some potential dangers regardless of whether the funding reaches ASF
accounts, and which require remediation and which I do not wish to obscure.
Best,
Myrle
-----------------
Subject: [NOTICE] D&I intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program.
Background: D&I has been approached by a potential sponsor who wishes to
support the participation of Outreachy in ASF projects by donating directly
to Outreachy. D&I wishes to perform UX research on the experience of
members of underrepresented groups as they get started with our
communities. This offer provides us with an excellent opportunity to do so.
Currently offered funding levels are enough to cover 3 interns. D&I plans
to accept this offer, and provide the following support:
* Advertise this opportunity to projects and seek proposals.
* Manage the project submission process to Outreachy, including filtering
out unsuitable project proposals, and, if necessary, making a final
selection of intern-project pairs.
* Ask interns for feedback on their experiences at various times throughout
the internship.
* Provide appropriate and useful feedback to the Foundation and to the
projects about opportunities to improve how welcoming we are, and what we
can improve on.
* Use this as an opportunity to increase awareness and acceptance of the
ASF in communities which we are currently not reaching as well as we would
like.
If Outreachy receives funding for more than 3 interns for the ASF, we will
facilitate the placement of such additional interns with Apache projects,
but we
plan to keep the initial rounds of this project relatively small for
learning purposes.
-----------------
The road ahead on this proposal is as follows (** indicates where we are
now):
* Start a [DISCUSS] thread.
** Allow the discussion to run as long as *new* points are being made.
* Start a [VOTE] thread to run for 72 hours.
* Submit a [NOTICE] to the board.
* Wait 72 hours for potential board objections.
* Get to work.
On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 5:36 PM Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 1:13 AM Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > ...
> >
> > If D&I finds funding for more than 3 interns, we intend to accept it, but
> > we plan to keep the initial rounds of this project relatively small for
> > learning purposes.
> >
>
> Let's fix this wording to avoid unnecessary allergic responses.
>
> The problem and risk that I see here is that D&I is not accepting any
> funding for interns. Outreachy is. Saying the word "accept" with respect to
> this funding may lead some to think that D&I is challenging, uhhmmm, core
> beliefs (hah! didn't say it). In fact, I do not think that you intend to do
> such and I, for one, would rather avoid an exhausting and pointless
> argument of the form "You must not do this! ... We don't plan to ... But
> you must not! ... We aren't doing it ... *ad infinitum*".
>
> How about this for alternative language that makes the actual intent more
> clear:
>
> *If Outreachy receives funding for more than 3 interns, we will facilitate
> the placement of such additional interns with **Apache projects, but we
> plan to keep the initial rounds of this project *
> *relatively small for **learning purposes.*
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 1:13 AM Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...
>
> If D&I finds funding for more than 3 interns, we intend to accept it, but
> we plan to keep the initial rounds of this project relatively small for
> learning purposes.
>
Let's fix this wording to avoid unnecessary allergic responses.
The problem and risk that I see here is that D&I is not accepting any
funding for interns. Outreachy is. Saying the word "accept" with respect to
this funding may lead some to think that D&I is challenging, uhhmmm, core
beliefs (hah! didn't say it). In fact, I do not think that you intend to do
such and I, for one, would rather avoid an exhausting and pointless
argument of the form "You must not do this! ... We don't plan to ... But
you must not! ... We aren't doing it ... *ad infinitum*".
How about this for alternative language that makes the actual intent more
clear:
*If Outreachy receives funding for more than 3 interns, we will facilitate
the placement of such additional interns with **Apache projects, but we
plan to keep the initial rounds of this project *
*relatively small for **learning purposes.*
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 10:32 AM Awasum Yannick <aw...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi Myrle,
>
> Overall +1 on the draft.
>
Thanks!
>
> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 9:13 AM Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> wrote:
> -----------------
> > Subject: [NOTICE] D&I intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program.
> >
> > Background: D&I has been approached by a potential sponsor who wishes to
> > support the participation of Outreachy in ASF projects by donating
> directly
> > to Outreachy. D&I wishes to perform UX research on the experience of
> > members of underrepresented groups as they get started with our
> > communities. This offer provides us with an excellent opportunity to do
> > so.
> >
> > Ohh, Please, permit me make a small point and clear a doubt:
>
> My understanding is that the ASF already approved funds for UX research to
> understand problems faced by under represented people in contributing to
> Apache projects. Maybe I missed something.
>
> Is participating in Outreachy also part of this UX research? Or is it
> something different from research. I wonder if putting it like this will
> make the board ask "did we not already allocate money for that?" and "did
> D&I need more money for UX research?".
>
The board has approved funds for UX research. This will be on-top, and
won't go through the ASF. Our UX research efforts will leverage this
initiative, but we'll still need someone formulating and conducting the
interviews, etc...
Best,
Myrle
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Awasum Yannick <aw...@apache.org>.
Hi Myrle,
Overall +1 on the draft.
On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 9:13 AM Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> We've already discussed the finer points and alternatives here. But we
> need a concrete proposal. And because we are talking about pre-selecting
> proposals and interacting with other projects, I want us to give the board
> a heads up. I'd like to suggest that we provide the notification below to
> the board.
>
> As always, patches welcome. But warning: I'll *scream* if anyone mentions
> 'core tenant' or 'first principle' one more time. (Here's my scream for my
> own mention: AAAAH! ; o)
>
> Best Regards,
> Myrle Krantz
> D&I n00b
>
> -----------------
> Subject: [NOTICE] D&I intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program.
>
> Background: D&I has been approached by a potential sponsor who wishes to
> support the participation of Outreachy in ASF projects by donating directly
> to Outreachy. D&I wishes to perform UX research on the experience of
> members of underrepresented groups as they get started with our
> communities. This offer provides us with an excellent opportunity to do
> so.
>
> Ohh, Please, permit me make a small point and clear a doubt:
My understanding is that the ASF already approved funds for UX research to
understand problems faced by under represented people in contributing to
Apache projects. Maybe I missed something.
Is participating in Outreachy also part of this UX research? Or is it
something different from research. I wonder if putting it like this will
make the board ask "did we not already allocate money for that?" and "did
D&I need more money for UX research?".
Currently offered funding levels are enough to cover 3 interns. D&I plans
> to accept this offer, and provide the following support:
>
> * Advertise this opportunity to projects and seek proposals.
> * Manage the project submission process to Outreachy, including filtering
> out unsuitable project proposals, and, if necessary, making a final
> selection of intern-project pairs.
> * Ask interns for feedback on their experiences at various times throughout
> the internship.
> * Provide appropriate and useful feedback to the Foundation and to the
> projects about opportunities to improve how welcoming we are, and what we
> can improve on.
> * Use this as an opportunity to increase awareness and acceptance of the
> ASF in communities which we are currently not reaching as well as we would
> like.
>
> If D&I finds funding for more than 3 interns, we intend to accept it, but
> we plan to keep the initial rounds of this project relatively small for
> learning purposes.
>
> -----------------
> The road ahead on this proposal is as follows (** indicates where we are
> now):
> * Start a [DISCUSS] thread.
> ** Allow the discussion to run as long as *new* points are being made.
> * Start a [VOTE] thread to run for 72 hours.
> * Submit a [NOTICE] to the board.
> * Wait 72 hours for potential board objections.
> * Get to work.
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com>.
Looks good to me Myrle!
Niall
On Mon, 1 Jul 2019 at 09:13, Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> We've already discussed the finer points and alternatives here. But we
> need a concrete proposal. And because we are talking about pre-selecting
> proposals and interacting with other projects, I want us to give the board
> a heads up. I'd like to suggest that we provide the notification below to
> the board.
>
> As always, patches welcome. But warning: I'll *scream* if anyone mentions
> 'core tenant' or 'first principle' one more time. (Here's my scream for my
> own mention: AAAAH! ; o)
>
> Best Regards,
> Myrle Krantz
> D&I n00b
>
> -----------------
> Subject: [NOTICE] D&I intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program.
>
> Background: D&I has been approached by a potential sponsor who wishes to
> support the participation of Outreachy in ASF projects by donating directly
> to Outreachy. D&I wishes to perform UX research on the experience of
> members of underrepresented groups as they get started with our
> communities. This offer provides us with an excellent opportunity to do
> so.
>
> Currently offered funding levels are enough to cover 3 interns. D&I plans
> to accept this offer, and provide the following support:
>
> * Advertise this opportunity to projects and seek proposals.
> * Manage the project submission process to Outreachy, including filtering
> out unsuitable project proposals, and, if necessary, making a final
> selection of intern-project pairs.
> * Ask interns for feedback on their experiences at various times throughout
> the internship.
> * Provide appropriate and useful feedback to the Foundation and to the
> projects about opportunities to improve how welcoming we are, and what we
> can improve on.
> * Use this as an opportunity to increase awareness and acceptance of the
> ASF in communities which we are currently not reaching as well as we would
> like.
>
> If D&I finds funding for more than 3 interns, we intend to accept it, but
> we plan to keep the initial rounds of this project relatively small for
> learning purposes.
>
> -----------------
> The road ahead on this proposal is as follows (** indicates where we are
> now):
> * Start a [DISCUSS] thread.
> ** Allow the discussion to run as long as *new* points are being made.
> * Start a [VOTE] thread to run for 72 hours.
> * Submit a [NOTICE] to the board.
> * Wait 72 hours for potential board objections.
> * Get to work.
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by "Kevin A. McGrail" <km...@apache.org>.
+1 on everything except the monies and sponsors mention. That's
Fundraising's bailiwick. I would strike "If D&I finds funding for more
than 3 interns, we intend to accept it, but we plan to keep the initial
rounds of this project relatively small for learning purposes."
If you really want to mention it, I would change it to D&I will ask
Fundraising to find sponsorship for up to 3 more interns.
I would also add concrete terms if you can. This is expected to happen
in "specific month". Will report monthly. etc.
On 7/1/2019 10:56 AM, Ross Gardler wrote:
> Looks good to me but I wonder if you should totally avoid the money issue.
>
> D&I is not doing this because a sponsor exists. We are doing this because Outreachy exists and we'd like the ASF to be able to participate.
>
> Phrases that mention money muddy the waters. For example "If D&I finds funding for more than 3 interns, we intend to accept it," implies D&I will seek funds. But that's not, as I understand it, the intent. I suggest this phrase be replaced by "if Outreachy is able to offer more than 3 interns we intend to attempt to match them with mentors."
>
> Similar rewording of all mentions of funding should make the proposal more palatable.
>
> Ross
>
> Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Swapnil M Mane <sw...@apache.org>
> Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 4:51:02 AM
> To: dev@diversity.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program
>
> Thank you Myrle, the draft looks good to me.
>
>
> - Best Regards,
> Swapnil M Mane
>
> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 1:43 PM Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Hey all,
>>
>> We've already discussed the finer points and alternatives here. But we
>> need a concrete proposal. And because we are talking about pre-selecting
>> proposals and interacting with other projects, I want us to give the board
>> a heads up. I'd like to suggest that we provide the notification below to
>> the board.
>>
>> As always, patches welcome. But warning: I'll *scream* if anyone mentions
>> 'core tenant' or 'first principle' one more time. (Here's my scream for my
>> own mention: AAAAH! ; o)
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Myrle Krantz
>> D&I n00b
>>
>> -----------------
>> Subject: [NOTICE] D&I intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program.
>>
>> Background: D&I has been approached by a potential sponsor who wishes to
>> support the participation of Outreachy in ASF projects by donating directly
>> to Outreachy. D&I wishes to perform UX research on the experience of
>> members of underrepresented groups as they get started with our
>> communities. This offer provides us with an excellent opportunity to do
>> so.
>>
>> Currently offered funding levels are enough to cover 3 interns. D&I plans
>> to accept this offer, and provide the following support:
>>
>> * Advertise this opportunity to projects and seek proposals.
>> * Manage the project submission process to Outreachy, including filtering
>> out unsuitable project proposals, and, if necessary, making a final
>> selection of intern-project pairs.
>> * Ask interns for feedback on their experiences at various times throughout
>> the internship.
>> * Provide appropriate and useful feedback to the Foundation and to the
>> projects about opportunities to improve how welcoming we are, and what we
>> can improve on.
>> * Use this as an opportunity to increase awareness and acceptance of the
>> ASF in communities which we are currently not reaching as well as we would
>> like.
>>
>> If D&I finds funding for more than 3 interns, we intend to accept it, but
>> we plan to keep the initial rounds of this project relatively small for
>> learning purposes.
>>
>> -----------------
>> The road ahead on this proposal is as follows (** indicates where we are
>> now):
>> * Start a [DISCUSS] thread.
>> ** Allow the discussion to run as long as *new* points are being made.
>> * Start a [VOTE] thread to run for 72 hours.
>> * Submit a [NOTICE] to the board.
>> * Wait 72 hours for potential board objections.
>> * Get to work.
>>
--
Kevin A. McGrail
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Ross Gardler <Ro...@microsoft.com.INVALID>.
Looks good to me but I wonder if you should totally avoid the money issue.
D&I is not doing this because a sponsor exists. We are doing this because Outreachy exists and we'd like the ASF to be able to participate.
Phrases that mention money muddy the waters. For example "If D&I finds funding for more than 3 interns, we intend to accept it," implies D&I will seek funds. But that's not, as I understand it, the intent. I suggest this phrase be replaced by "if Outreachy is able to offer more than 3 interns we intend to attempt to match them with mentors."
Similar rewording of all mentions of funding should make the proposal more palatable.
Ross
Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>
________________________________
From: Swapnil M Mane <sw...@apache.org>
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 4:51:02 AM
To: dev@diversity.apache.org
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program
Thank you Myrle, the draft looks good to me.
- Best Regards,
Swapnil M Mane
On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 1:43 PM Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> We've already discussed the finer points and alternatives here. But we
> need a concrete proposal. And because we are talking about pre-selecting
> proposals and interacting with other projects, I want us to give the board
> a heads up. I'd like to suggest that we provide the notification below to
> the board.
>
> As always, patches welcome. But warning: I'll *scream* if anyone mentions
> 'core tenant' or 'first principle' one more time. (Here's my scream for my
> own mention: AAAAH! ; o)
>
> Best Regards,
> Myrle Krantz
> D&I n00b
>
> -----------------
> Subject: [NOTICE] D&I intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program.
>
> Background: D&I has been approached by a potential sponsor who wishes to
> support the participation of Outreachy in ASF projects by donating directly
> to Outreachy. D&I wishes to perform UX research on the experience of
> members of underrepresented groups as they get started with our
> communities. This offer provides us with an excellent opportunity to do
> so.
>
> Currently offered funding levels are enough to cover 3 interns. D&I plans
> to accept this offer, and provide the following support:
>
> * Advertise this opportunity to projects and seek proposals.
> * Manage the project submission process to Outreachy, including filtering
> out unsuitable project proposals, and, if necessary, making a final
> selection of intern-project pairs.
> * Ask interns for feedback on their experiences at various times throughout
> the internship.
> * Provide appropriate and useful feedback to the Foundation and to the
> projects about opportunities to improve how welcoming we are, and what we
> can improve on.
> * Use this as an opportunity to increase awareness and acceptance of the
> ASF in communities which we are currently not reaching as well as we would
> like.
>
> If D&I finds funding for more than 3 interns, we intend to accept it, but
> we plan to keep the initial rounds of this project relatively small for
> learning purposes.
>
> -----------------
> The road ahead on this proposal is as follows (** indicates where we are
> now):
> * Start a [DISCUSS] thread.
> ** Allow the discussion to run as long as *new* points are being made.
> * Start a [VOTE] thread to run for 72 hours.
> * Submit a [NOTICE] to the board.
> * Wait 72 hours for potential board objections.
> * Get to work.
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Notify the board that D&I intends to coordinate an
Outreachy intern program
Posted by Swapnil M Mane <sw...@apache.org>.
Thank you Myrle, the draft looks good to me.
- Best Regards,
Swapnil M Mane
On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 1:43 PM Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> We've already discussed the finer points and alternatives here. But we
> need a concrete proposal. And because we are talking about pre-selecting
> proposals and interacting with other projects, I want us to give the board
> a heads up. I'd like to suggest that we provide the notification below to
> the board.
>
> As always, patches welcome. But warning: I'll *scream* if anyone mentions
> 'core tenant' or 'first principle' one more time. (Here's my scream for my
> own mention: AAAAH! ; o)
>
> Best Regards,
> Myrle Krantz
> D&I n00b
>
> -----------------
> Subject: [NOTICE] D&I intends to coordinate an Outreachy intern program.
>
> Background: D&I has been approached by a potential sponsor who wishes to
> support the participation of Outreachy in ASF projects by donating directly
> to Outreachy. D&I wishes to perform UX research on the experience of
> members of underrepresented groups as they get started with our
> communities. This offer provides us with an excellent opportunity to do
> so.
>
> Currently offered funding levels are enough to cover 3 interns. D&I plans
> to accept this offer, and provide the following support:
>
> * Advertise this opportunity to projects and seek proposals.
> * Manage the project submission process to Outreachy, including filtering
> out unsuitable project proposals, and, if necessary, making a final
> selection of intern-project pairs.
> * Ask interns for feedback on their experiences at various times throughout
> the internship.
> * Provide appropriate and useful feedback to the Foundation and to the
> projects about opportunities to improve how welcoming we are, and what we
> can improve on.
> * Use this as an opportunity to increase awareness and acceptance of the
> ASF in communities which we are currently not reaching as well as we would
> like.
>
> If D&I finds funding for more than 3 interns, we intend to accept it, but
> we plan to keep the initial rounds of this project relatively small for
> learning purposes.
>
> -----------------
> The road ahead on this proposal is as follows (** indicates where we are
> now):
> * Start a [DISCUSS] thread.
> ** Allow the discussion to run as long as *new* points are being made.
> * Start a [VOTE] thread to run for 72 hours.
> * Submit a [NOTICE] to the board.
> * Wait 72 hours for potential board objections.
> * Get to work.
>