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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com> on 2011/09/20 17:18:24 UTC
Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Hi,
I was looking into that:
http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Roles_and_Responsibilities.html#Sponsor
And thought, if an upcoming podling is deciding to become a TLD it
should ask the board to sponsor it.
Now I have been told from Andrus that this is not the case and usually
the Incubator is sponsoring TLD projects.
I find this paragraph very misleading - is it just me?
If (and I assume he is) Andrus is right, how is the way to have the
Incubator as a sponsor? Just asking? Just adding to the proposal? If
this is the case, then is "Champion" obsolete? Actually I was always
doubting this role a bit.
Cheers,
Christian
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RE: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
For example, the Apache OpenOffice.org Podling has no chair.
The creation of the monthly report has been undertaken as a community effort, although it seems to be a variant of launch-pad chicken (falling on whoever thinks the deadline is too close and it is time to put something up there for other PPMC members to review and amend).
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Martijn Dashorst [mailto:martijn.dashorst@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2011 06:34
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 3:14 PM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Do PPMCs have chairs?
>>> If not, then maybe the Champion fulfils that role until eventual
>>> graduation; otherwise they fulfil the role until the PPMC elects a
>>> chair.
>>
>> I really thought PPMCs have chairs! Otherwise how does the Incubator PMC
>> ensure that podlings report on time?
That is what the mentors are for. AFAIK there is no Chair role for
PPMCs. Electing one is typically done when the board resolution is
written. Usually the person picking up the tab of writing the reports
and instigating committer votes is the person to be picked as the
Chair.
Assigning a Chair role in a podling while incubating probably is a bad
idea as it invites BDFL proliferation...
Martijn
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Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by Martijn Dashorst <ma...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 3:14 PM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Do PPMCs have chairs?
>>> If not, then maybe the Champion fulfils that role until eventual
>>> graduation; otherwise they fulfil the role until the PPMC elects a
>>> chair.
>>
>> I really thought PPMCs have chairs! Otherwise how does the Incubator PMC
>> ensure that podlings report on time?
That is what the mentors are for. AFAIK there is no Chair role for
PPMCs. Electing one is typically done when the board resolution is
written. Usually the person picking up the tab of writing the reports
and instigating committer votes is the person to be picked as the
Chair.
Assigning a Chair role in a podling while incubating probably is a bad
idea as it invites BDFL proliferation...
Martijn
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Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On 22 September 2011 14:03, Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org> wrote:
>
>
> On 9/20/2011 8:18 PM, sebb wrote:
>>
>> On 20 September 2011 18:50, Robert Burrell Donkin
>> <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 5:46 PM, Christian Grobmeier
>>> <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 5:56 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
>>>> <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 5:46 PM, Martijn Dashorst
>>>>> <ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ...snip...
>
>> If there is no Champion, who is responsible for driving the process
>> forward initially?
>
> Bingo. The reason for a Champion IMO is to have a single person willing to
> coordinate and drive the process. Call it "First Mentor among Mentors" if
> you like, call it whatever.
>
> But to me Champion (as a word meaning) is the person who champions the idea:
> the one person who will push and organize and drive the rest of the group to
> accept the idea and signup to help the idea. They don't need to be coders
> or even plan to work personally on the code; they're more the one voice that
> gets a number of other volunteers to commit to also agreeing to help the
> project join and move forward.
>
> I think it should be mandatory, but in most cases it should be simple to
> fill. Either the existing team behind the proposal already has someone with
> experience in Apache stuff, or there's some mentor who's clearly willing to
> step up to be champion.
>
>> Once the PPMC is up and running, that becomes less of an issue.
>
> Correct - hopefully at that point the PPMC and mentors together have enough
> of a commitment and working relationship that they can succeed together.
>
>>
>> Do PPMCs have chairs?
>> If not, then maybe the Champion fulfils that role until eventual
>> graduation; otherwise they fulfil the role until the PPMC elects a
>> chair.
>
> I really thought PPMCs have chairs! Otherwise how does the Incubator PMC
> ensure that podlings report on time?
In which case, maybe the podling status pages need to include the current chair.
I was going to suggest adding the Champion to the status page, but
that would only apply if the Champion role is still relevant once the
podling has been created.
It seems it probably is not.
> Yes, in any healthy community the (P)PMC as a whole can create reports
> together. But the board looks to the chair (and VP) of a PMC to actually
> get it done. Likewise, I'd think the Incubator PMC should look to the chair
> (not a VP) of a PPMC to be the person who gets podling reports done.
>
> And yes, I'm happy with anyone here who wants to work at clarifying the
> incubator documentation. 8-)
>
> - Shane
>
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Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org>.
On 9/20/2011 8:18 PM, sebb wrote:
> On 20 September 2011 18:50, Robert Burrell Donkin
> <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 5:46 PM, Christian Grobmeier
>> <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 5:56 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
>>> <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 5:46 PM, Martijn Dashorst
>>>> <ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
...snip...
> If there is no Champion, who is responsible for driving the process
> forward initially?
Bingo. The reason for a Champion IMO is to have a single person willing
to coordinate and drive the process. Call it "First Mentor among
Mentors" if you like, call it whatever.
But to me Champion (as a word meaning) is the person who champions the
idea: the one person who will push and organize and drive the rest of
the group to accept the idea and signup to help the idea. They don't
need to be coders or even plan to work personally on the code; they're
more the one voice that gets a number of other volunteers to commit to
also agreeing to help the project join and move forward.
I think it should be mandatory, but in most cases it should be simple to
fill. Either the existing team behind the proposal already has someone
with experience in Apache stuff, or there's some mentor who's clearly
willing to step up to be champion.
> Once the PPMC is up and running, that becomes less of an issue.
Correct - hopefully at that point the PPMC and mentors together have
enough of a commitment and working relationship that they can succeed
together.
>
> Do PPMCs have chairs?
> If not, then maybe the Champion fulfils that role until eventual
> graduation; otherwise they fulfil the role until the PPMC elects a
> chair.
I really thought PPMCs have chairs! Otherwise how does the Incubator
PMC ensure that podlings report on time?
Yes, in any healthy community the (P)PMC as a whole can create reports
together. But the board looks to the chair (and VP) of a PMC to
actually get it done. Likewise, I'd think the Incubator PMC should look
to the chair (not a VP) of a PPMC to be the person who gets podling
reports done.
And yes, I'm happy with anyone here who wants to work at clarifying the
incubator documentation. 8-)
- Shane
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Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On 20 September 2011 18:50, Robert Burrell Donkin
<ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 5:46 PM, Christian Grobmeier
> <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 5:56 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
>> <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>>> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 5:46 PM, Martijn Dashorst
>>> <ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> IMO the champion helps clarify the incubator process up to acceptance
>>>> of the podling into the incubator. For example the champion for Wicket
>>>> was not a singular person, but both Alex Karasulu and Upayavira were
>>>> both very instrumental in smoothing our transition into the incubator.
>>>>
>>>> general@ can be very confusing and sometimes even hostile towards new
>>>> podlings. Having a champion watching out for the podling is rather
>>>> useful....
>>>
>>> Agreed, IMO the role of the champion is to help the podling get
>>> started (which might include help find a sponsor, mentors etc) and
>>> they might only follow things from afar once that's done.
>>
>> So, why do we need a role for that?
>>
>> I rarely see the call "We need a champion" on the mailinglsit. So I
>> assume that these persons are somehow connected to the project before.
>> Or they read the draft-proposal and contact people directly.
>
> I suspect that they often contact people directly
>
>> At the moment it looks as it is required to have a Champion. I don't
>> think so. It should be optional, if we really need such a role. I
>> still doubt. Instead, a Champion is more or less the first mentor a
>> project has. It should be called Mentor (or initial mentor) to avoid
>> to much unnecessary terms.
>
> IIRC separating these roles allowed specialists to navigate the
> podling approval process without having to make a long commitment. Our
> documentation for this process seems ok now. So maybe champions are no
> longer needed.
If there is no Champion, who is responsible for driving the process
forward initially?
Once the PPMC is up and running, that becomes less of an issue.
Do PPMCs have chairs?
If not, then maybe the Champion fulfils that role until eventual
graduation; otherwise they fulfil the role until the PPMC elects a
chair.
> Robert
>
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Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 5:46 PM, Christian Grobmeier
<gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 5:56 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 5:46 PM, Martijn Dashorst
>> <ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> IMO the champion helps clarify the incubator process up to acceptance
>>> of the podling into the incubator. For example the champion for Wicket
>>> was not a singular person, but both Alex Karasulu and Upayavira were
>>> both very instrumental in smoothing our transition into the incubator.
>>>
>>> general@ can be very confusing and sometimes even hostile towards new
>>> podlings. Having a champion watching out for the podling is rather
>>> useful....
>>
>> Agreed, IMO the role of the champion is to help the podling get
>> started (which might include help find a sponsor, mentors etc) and
>> they might only follow things from afar once that's done.
>
> So, why do we need a role for that?
>
> I rarely see the call "We need a champion" on the mailinglsit. So I
> assume that these persons are somehow connected to the project before.
> Or they read the draft-proposal and contact people directly.
I suspect that they often contact people directly
> At the moment it looks as it is required to have a Champion. I don't
> think so. It should be optional, if we really need such a role. I
> still doubt. Instead, a Champion is more or less the first mentor a
> project has. It should be called Mentor (or initial mentor) to avoid
> to much unnecessary terms.
IIRC separating these roles allowed specialists to navigate the
podling approval process without having to make a long commitment. Our
documentation for this process seems ok now. So maybe champions are no
longer needed.
Robert
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Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 3:28 AM, David Crossley <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
> Christian Grobmeier wrote:
>> >
>> > Surely a podling does not exist until it enters incubation?
>> > Beforehand, it is just a proposal to create a podling.
>>
>> So whats the name for Podling before it becomes one? Simply project?
>
> As suggested above "Proposal". Or this
> http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Process_Description.html
> calls it "Candidate".
I like Candidate more as Proposal does also name a specific entry at the wiki.
Thanks
Christian
>
> -David
>
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Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Christian Grobmeier wrote:
> >
> > Surely a podling does not exist until it enters incubation?
> > Beforehand, it is just a proposal to create a podling.
>
> So whats the name for Podling before it becomes one? Simply project?
As suggested above "Proposal". Or this
http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Process_Description.html
calls it "Candidate".
-David
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Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 11:31 AM, Christian Grobmeier
<gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 4:23 AM, Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org> wrote:
>> On 9/21/2011 10:12 AM, Christian Grobmeier wrote:
>>>
>>> I would like to add this image in addition:
>>> http://code.grobmeier.de/howtobecomeanasfproject.pdf
>>>
>>> Because an image does say more than thousand words...
>>
>> Awesomeness. Please check it into the docs. And if we are ever working in
>> the same place someday, I would love to work through a number of "Apache
>> Governance 101" slides with you, since I have nice clear pictures in my
>> head, but have zero ability to make cool slides like you do.
>
> thanks for the nice feedback :-)
>
> I added all your suggestion in the new version and put it into:
> http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Process_Description.html
> together with some formatting and minor changes.
>
> In addition I added the keynote file - not sure if it was a good idea
> to place it into svn, but today I practiced CTR ;-)
>
> HTML is not checked in yet, would like to wait if somebody has corrections.
I changed mind to avoid conflicts with other updaters. Just did not
update the incubator site yet
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Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 4:23 AM, Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org> wrote:
> On 9/21/2011 10:12 AM, Christian Grobmeier wrote:
>>
>> I would like to add this image in addition:
>> http://code.grobmeier.de/howtobecomeanasfproject.pdf
>>
>> Because an image does say more than thousand words...
>
> Awesomeness. Please check it into the docs. And if we are ever working in
> the same place someday, I would love to work through a number of "Apache
> Governance 101" slides with you, since I have nice clear pictures in my
> head, but have zero ability to make cool slides like you do.
thanks for the nice feedback :-)
I added all your suggestion in the new version and put it into:
http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Process_Description.html
together with some formatting and minor changes.
In addition I added the keynote file - not sure if it was a good idea
to place it into svn, but today I practiced CTR ;-)
HTML is not checked in yet, would like to wait if somebody has corrections.
Cheers,
Christian
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Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org>.
On 9/21/2011 10:12 AM, Christian Grobmeier wrote:
> I would like to add this image in addition:
> http://code.grobmeier.de/howtobecomeanasfproject.pdf
>
> Because an image does say more than thousand words...
Awesomeness. Please check it into the docs. And if we are ever working
in the same place someday, I would love to work through a number of
"Apache Governance 101" slides with you, since I have nice clear
pictures in my head, but have zero ability to make cool slides like you do.
If I were to nitpick:
- The top blue box with "Podling" is really an "outside community" -
i.e. some group of people with an idea and some code who are not working
on that idea at Apache yet. Not sure what the best word is - candidate
or proposal both work OK. I would suggest *not* calling that a podling.
Instead, the last box at the bottom should be "Podling" or "Incubating
Podling" instead of just "Incubate".
I like the idea of using feathers in some places, although personally
having the different feathers pointing in different directions drives me
crazy.
- I might update the "Feedback" to also include "[Discuss]" or the like.
I.e. we have pretty clear understandings that you come along, make a
specific proposal, then the whole community specifically discusses the
proposal for a while. Then the vote.
Yay diagrams. Thanks!
- Shane
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Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
>> I would like to add this image in addition:
>> http://code.grobmeier.de/howtobecomeanasfproject.pdf
>>
>> Because an image does say more than thousand words...
>
> Surely a podling does not exist until it enters incubation?
> Beforehand, it is just a proposal to create a podling.
So whats the name for Podling before it becomes one? Simply project?
> Also, the Champion may not need to be recruited; some potential
> podlings are introduced by the Champion.
In any way, either
- the Champion asks the podling to become an ASF project
- the podling looks for a Champion to become an ASF project
A collective of people who want to create a project from scratch I
consider already a project.
I will rename the "aquire" term to "team up" and make the arrow
looking in both sides.
Does this then reflect your suggestion?
Cheers
>
>
>> cheers,
>> Christian
>>
>>>
>>> These can of course be done by others, but having one person
>>> responsible is generally easier, and less likely to result in omission
>>> or duplication.
>>>
>>> By the way, the Champion does not seem to be listed on the podling
>>> status pages or summary.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure if that is an omission, or whether it's because the
>>> Champion's role is over once the podling has been created (if that is
>>> so).
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://www.grobmeier.de
>>
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>>
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Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On 21 September 2011 15:12, Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 1:21 PM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 21 September 2011 11:57, Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> What is the cause he actually fights/argues for? New folks are
>>>>> speaking to the general list on their own.
>>>>
>>>> The cause is getting the podling accepted in the incubator, finding
>>>> mentors and other interested parties.
>>>
>>> "The Champion assists the candidate on their initial submission to a Sponsor."
>>> http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Roles_and_Responsibilities.html#Champion
>>>
>>> This is how the Champion role is defined. The "default" Sponsor is the
>>> Apache Incubator - no big deal. The only thing a Champion does is to
>>> look at the projects list and try to contact a project if it would
>>> sponsor this new podling.
>>
>> Also, the Champion makes sure the discussion phase is wrapped up and
>> turned into a vote; ensures the vote is tallied etc.
>
> This might be true, but it is implicit knowledge, which is leading to
> confusion. If nobody wants to get rid of this term (except me), we
> should do an update of the Champion description.
>
> I would like to add this image in addition:
> http://code.grobmeier.de/howtobecomeanasfproject.pdf
>
> Because an image does say more than thousand words...
Surely a podling does not exist until it enters incubation?
Beforehand, it is just a proposal to create a podling.
Also, the Champion may not need to be recruited; some potential
podlings are introduced by the Champion.
> cheers,
> Christian
>
>>
>> These can of course be done by others, but having one person
>> responsible is generally easier, and less likely to result in omission
>> or duplication.
>>
>> By the way, the Champion does not seem to be listed on the podling
>> status pages or summary.
>>
>> I'm not sure if that is an omission, or whether it's because the
>> Champion's role is over once the podling has been created (if that is
>> so).
>>
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>>
>
>
>
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> http://www.grobmeier.de
>
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Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by Francis De Brabandere <fr...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 4:24 PM, Christian Grobmeier
<gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I would like to add this image in addition:
>>> http://code.grobmeier.de/howtobecomeanasfproject.pdf
>>
>> I like it - I'd just say "mentors", plural, in the reddish box on the right.
>
> Agreed, I have changed it local and wait if there are more comments
+1 we should have more of these graphs, like for the release process
(also keep the image source file for later modifications!)
Cheers,
Francis
>
>>
>> -Bertrand
>>
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>>
>
>
>
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Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
>> I would like to add this image in addition:
>> http://code.grobmeier.de/howtobecomeanasfproject.pdf
>
> I like it - I'd just say "mentors", plural, in the reddish box on the right.
Agreed, I have changed it local and wait if there are more comments
>
> -Bertrand
>
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Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 4:12 PM, Christian Grobmeier
<gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>...If nobody wants to get rid of this term (except me), we
> should do an update of the Champion description.
>
> I would like to add this image in addition:
> http://code.grobmeier.de/howtobecomeanasfproject.pdf
I like it - I'd just say "mentors", plural, in the reddish box on the right.
-Bertrand
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Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 1:21 PM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 21 September 2011 11:57, Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> What is the cause he actually fights/argues for? New folks are
>>>> speaking to the general list on their own.
>>>
>>> The cause is getting the podling accepted in the incubator, finding
>>> mentors and other interested parties.
>>
>> "The Champion assists the candidate on their initial submission to a Sponsor."
>> http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Roles_and_Responsibilities.html#Champion
>>
>> This is how the Champion role is defined. The "default" Sponsor is the
>> Apache Incubator - no big deal. The only thing a Champion does is to
>> look at the projects list and try to contact a project if it would
>> sponsor this new podling.
>
> Also, the Champion makes sure the discussion phase is wrapped up and
> turned into a vote; ensures the vote is tallied etc.
This might be true, but it is implicit knowledge, which is leading to
confusion. If nobody wants to get rid of this term (except me), we
should do an update of the Champion description.
I would like to add this image in addition:
http://code.grobmeier.de/howtobecomeanasfproject.pdf
Because an image does say more than thousand words...
cheers,
Christian
>
> These can of course be done by others, but having one person
> responsible is generally easier, and less likely to result in omission
> or duplication.
>
> By the way, the Champion does not seem to be listed on the podling
> status pages or summary.
>
> I'm not sure if that is an omission, or whether it's because the
> Champion's role is over once the podling has been created (if that is
> so).
>
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Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On 21 September 2011 11:57, Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> What is the cause he actually fights/argues for? New folks are
>>> speaking to the general list on their own.
>>
>> The cause is getting the podling accepted in the incubator, finding
>> mentors and other interested parties.
>
> "The Champion assists the candidate on their initial submission to a Sponsor."
> http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Roles_and_Responsibilities.html#Champion
>
> This is how the Champion role is defined. The "default" Sponsor is the
> Apache Incubator - no big deal. The only thing a Champion does is to
> look at the projects list and try to contact a project if it would
> sponsor this new podling.
Also, the Champion makes sure the discussion phase is wrapped up and
turned into a vote; ensures the vote is tallied etc.
These can of course be done by others, but having one person
responsible is generally easier, and less likely to result in omission
or duplication.
By the way, the Champion does not seem to be listed on the podling
status pages or summary.
I'm not sure if that is an omission, or whether it's because the
Champion's role is over once the podling has been created (if that is
so).
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Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
>> What is the cause he actually fights/argues for? New folks are
>> speaking to the general list on their own.
>
> The cause is getting the podling accepted in the incubator, finding
> mentors and other interested parties.
"The Champion assists the candidate on their initial submission to a Sponsor."
http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Roles_and_Responsibilities.html#Champion
This is how the Champion role is defined. The "default" Sponsor is the
Apache Incubator - no big deal. The only thing a Champion does is to
look at the projects list and try to contact a project if it would
sponsor this new podling. Imho this should be discussed on the
general@ list, when a Draft proposal is there.
>> #1 applies. the projects I have seen needed counseling, not somebody
>> who fight for their case.
>> If you can find a first mentor, you can prove that somebody has an interest.
>
> A mentor guides the podling through the incubation. A champion guides
> the podling into the incubator. Big difference and not confusing at
> all.
Confusion is in the eye of the beholder too.
I am not sure what is wrong with "make a draft proposal and ask for
help on general@" and why there must be a role for that.
But it seems I am the only one who does not see any sense in it, so I
shut up now.
If folks here want to keep the Champion for whatever reasons, I
suggest to update the description a little bit and be more concrete on
what is expected from a Champion and how one can find a Champion.
Cheers
Christian
> Martijn
>
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Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by Martijn Dashorst <ma...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Christian Grobmeier
<gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> champion |ˈCHampēən| noun
>> 1 a person who has defeated or surpassed all rivals in a competition,
>> esp. in sports:
>> 2 a person who fights or argues for a cause or on behalf of someone else:
>>
>> The correct usage is of course definition #2
>
> What is the cause he actually fights/argues for? New folks are
> speaking to the general list on their own.
The cause is getting the podling accepted in the incubator, finding
mentors and other interested parties.
> The arguments I heard for a "Champion" were "understanding the initial
> process" or "passing the process hurdles". In addition to "somebody
> from the ASF need to show interest".
>
> (mĕn'tôr', -tər)
> 1) A wise and trusted counselor or teacher.
> 2) Mentor Greek Mythology. Odysseus's trusted counselor, in whose
> guise Athena became the guardian and teacher of Telemachus.
>
> #1 applies. the projects I have seen needed counseling, not somebody
> who fight for their case.
> If you can find a first mentor, you can prove that somebody has an interest.
A mentor guides the podling through the incubation. A champion guides
the podling into the incubator. Big difference and not confusing at
all.
Martijn
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Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
> champion |ˈCHampēən| noun
> 1 a person who has defeated or surpassed all rivals in a competition,
> esp. in sports:
> 2 a person who fights or argues for a cause or on behalf of someone else:
>
> The correct usage is of course definition #2
What is the cause he actually fights/argues for? New folks are
speaking to the general list on their own.
The arguments I heard for a "Champion" were "understanding the initial
process" or "passing the process hurdles". In addition to "somebody
from the ASF need to show interest".
(mĕn'tôr', -tər)
1) A wise and trusted counselor or teacher.
2) Mentor Greek Mythology. Odysseus's trusted counselor, in whose
guise Athena became the guardian and teacher of Telemachus.
#1 applies. the projects I have seen needed counseling, not somebody
who fight for their case.
If you can find a first mentor, you can prove that somebody has an interest.
>> I have read what others think (helping with the process, probably help
>> with the proposal) but I still fail to see why we need another term
>> for it. Less is beautiful.
>
> Beautiful is in the eye of the beholder. Less is definitely not always
> beautiful. See for example [1]: less classes.
I agree here.
> Identifying and correctly naming roles is very important—especially in
> an environment as the incubator.
Thats exact. Thats why I doubt the sense of a Champion.
It is already confusing and a hard entry barrier to find a "Champion".
Where can you find one? Why do I need it? Can I ask on the
mailinglist? Then I need to outline my idea, which is going pretty
near to have a draft proposal (actually I have heard people say
something like that).
It would be easier if every potential podling must fill the Proposal
form and ask for an initial mentor on the incubator list, once
completed. It is only one form and one e-mail. I still can't see why a
Champion is necessary.
Anyway, cheers
Christian
>
> Martijn
>
> [1] https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/blog/2011/one-base-class-to-rule-them-all
>
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Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by Martijn Dashorst <ma...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 11:15 AM, Christian Grobmeier
<gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Why must the name be "Champion" and not just "Mentor"?
Because Champion is an aptly name for the role.
> champion is just another term for the first potential mentor who steps up.
It is the correct name for that role:
champion |ˈCHampēən| noun
1 a person who has defeated or surpassed all rivals in a competition,
esp. in sports:
2 a person who fights or argues for a cause or on behalf of someone else:
The correct usage is of course definition #2
> I have read what others think (helping with the process, probably help
> with the proposal) but I still fail to see why we need another term
> for it. Less is beautiful.
Beautiful is in the eye of the beholder. Less is definitely not always
beautiful. See for example [1]: less classes.
Identifying and correctly naming roles is very important—especially in
an environment as the incubator.
Martijn
[1] https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/blog/2011/one-base-class-to-rule-them-all
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Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 9:57 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
<bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 2:33 AM, Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>...it seems useful that one person would step forth and
>> claim to be the champion of bringing a certain project to the ASF and
>> [implicitly] agree to pushing down any artificial process hurdles...
Why must the name be "Champion" and not just "Mentor"?
> I agree with that, and someone signing up as champion also means they
> believe in the podling having its place at Apache, which is a good
> thing IMO.
>
> In the simplest case, one of the mentors just signs up as the
> champion, so I don't think keeping that notion is complicated or
> obsolete.
Champion is just another term for the first potential mentor who steps up.
I have read what others think (helping with the process, probably help
with the proposal) but I still fail to see why we need another term
for it. Less is beautiful.
Cheers
> -Bertrand
>
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Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 2:33 AM, Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>...it seems useful that one person would step forth and
> claim to be the champion of bringing a certain project to the ASF and
> [implicitly] agree to pushing down any artificial process hurdles...
I agree with that, and someone signing up as champion also means they
believe in the podling having its place at Apache, which is a good
thing IMO.
In the simplest case, one of the mentors just signs up as the
champion, so I don't think keeping that notion is complicated or
obsolete.
-Bertrand
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Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by Tim Williams <wi...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 12:46 PM, Christian Grobmeier
<gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 5:56 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 5:46 PM, Martijn Dashorst
>> <ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> IMO the champion helps clarify the incubator process up to acceptance
>>> of the podling into the incubator. For example the champion for Wicket
>>> was not a singular person, but both Alex Karasulu and Upayavira were
>>> both very instrumental in smoothing our transition into the incubator.
>>>
>>> general@ can be very confusing and sometimes even hostile towards new
>>> podlings. Having a champion watching out for the podling is rather
>>> useful....
>>
>> Agreed, IMO the role of the champion is to help the podling get
>> started (which might include help find a sponsor, mentors etc) and
>> they might only follow things from afar once that's done.
>
> So, why do we need a role for that?
>
> I rarely see the call "We need a champion" on the mailinglsit. So I
> assume that these persons are somehow connected to the project before.
> Or they read the draft-proposal and contact people directly.
>
> At the moment it looks as it is required to have a Champion. I don't
> think so. It should be optional, if we really need such a role.
It seems to that it is a mostly pre-incubation job in only certain
projects. But it seems useful that one person would step forth and
claim to be the champion of bringing a certain project to the ASF and
[implicitly] agree to pushing down any artificial process hurdles. It
seems like we've had such hurdles and brave champions in the past but
I'm too lazy to dig right now...
--tim
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Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 5:56 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
<bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 5:46 PM, Martijn Dashorst
> <ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> IMO the champion helps clarify the incubator process up to acceptance
>> of the podling into the incubator. For example the champion for Wicket
>> was not a singular person, but both Alex Karasulu and Upayavira were
>> both very instrumental in smoothing our transition into the incubator.
>>
>> general@ can be very confusing and sometimes even hostile towards new
>> podlings. Having a champion watching out for the podling is rather
>> useful....
>
> Agreed, IMO the role of the champion is to help the podling get
> started (which might include help find a sponsor, mentors etc) and
> they might only follow things from afar once that's done.
So, why do we need a role for that?
I rarely see the call "We need a champion" on the mailinglsit. So I
assume that these persons are somehow connected to the project before.
Or they read the draft-proposal and contact people directly.
At the moment it looks as it is required to have a Champion. I don't
think so. It should be optional, if we really need such a role. I
still doubt. Instead, a Champion is more or less the first mentor a
project has. It should be called Mentor (or initial mentor) to avoid
to much unnecessary terms.
In fact, with DirectMemory I have felt it led all to more confusion
than it was helpful.
Help finding a sponsor - default sponsor is Incubator PMC. There is no
real need of it.
Help finding mentors - an email to general usually is enough to make people act.
Cheers,
Christian
> It's different from a mentor who's supposed to stay active until
> graduation, but in some cases the role/people overlap, without
> problems.
>
> -Bertrand
>
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Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 5:46 PM, Martijn Dashorst
<ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> IMO the champion helps clarify the incubator process up to acceptance
> of the podling into the incubator. For example the champion for Wicket
> was not a singular person, but both Alex Karasulu and Upayavira were
> both very instrumental in smoothing our transition into the incubator.
>
> general@ can be very confusing and sometimes even hostile towards new
> podlings. Having a champion watching out for the podling is rather
> useful....
Agreed, IMO the role of the champion is to help the podling get
started (which might include help find a sponsor, mentors etc) and
they might only follow things from afar once that's done.
It's different from a mentor who's supposed to stay active until
graduation, but in some cases the role/people overlap, without
problems.
-Bertrand
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Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by Martijn Dashorst <ma...@gmail.com>.
IMO the champion helps clarify the incubator process up to acceptance
of the podling into the incubator. For example the champion for Wicket
was not a singular person, but both Alex Karasulu and Upayavira were
both very instrumental in smoothing our transition into the incubator.
general@ can be very confusing and sometimes even hostile towards new
podlings. Having a champion watching out for the podling is rather
useful.
Martijn
On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 5:43 PM, Christian Grobmeier
<gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> And thought, if an upcoming podling is deciding to become a TLD it
>>> should ask the board to sponsor it.
>>> Now I have been told from Andrus that this is not the case and usually
>>> the Incubator is sponsoring TLD projects.
>>
>> Yes, as I said on the board list I don't remember the board sponsoring
>> incubating projects recently.
>
> thanks for repeating it here, b/c i realized i was not subscribed yet
> (fixed it now, but missed your reply)
>
>>>...how is the way to have the
>>> Incubator as a sponsor? Just asking? Just adding to the proposal? ...
>>
>> Yes, just add it and people will complain if they see a problem.
>
> OK will do.
>
>>> ...If this is the case, then is "Champion" obsolete? Actually I was always
>>> doubting this role a bit....
>>
>> The champion is a person, while the sponsor is a PMC - what makes you
>> think the champion role is obsolete?
>
> What actually does a Champion do? Docs say he helps with finding a sponsor...
>
> A project can put the name "Incubator" as a sponsor as you said and
> see what happens. If somebody thinks on general@ a project fits
> perfectly to another one, then he probably says it. Therefore I really
> don't see the need for a role like a champion.
>
> If you ask me, I would delete the whole champion thing from the docs
> and rephrase the link I sent to: ask an existing project to sponsor
> you or put incubator into the sponsoring section.
>
> Learning the apache way is what mentors usually help with
>
> Christian
>
>>
>> -Bertrand
>>
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>
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Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
>> And thought, if an upcoming podling is deciding to become a TLD it
>> should ask the board to sponsor it.
>> Now I have been told from Andrus that this is not the case and usually
>> the Incubator is sponsoring TLD projects.
>
> Yes, as I said on the board list I don't remember the board sponsoring
> incubating projects recently.
thanks for repeating it here, b/c i realized i was not subscribed yet
(fixed it now, but missed your reply)
>>...how is the way to have the
>> Incubator as a sponsor? Just asking? Just adding to the proposal? ...
>
> Yes, just add it and people will complain if they see a problem.
OK will do.
>> ...If this is the case, then is "Champion" obsolete? Actually I was always
>> doubting this role a bit....
>
> The champion is a person, while the sponsor is a PMC - what makes you
> think the champion role is obsolete?
What actually does a Champion do? Docs say he helps with finding a sponsor...
A project can put the name "Incubator" as a sponsor as you said and
see what happens. If somebody thinks on general@ a project fits
perfectly to another one, then he probably says it. Therefore I really
don't see the need for a role like a champion.
If you ask me, I would delete the whole champion thing from the docs
and rephrase the link I sent to: ask an existing project to sponsor
you or put incubator into the sponsoring section.
Learning the apache way is what mentors usually help with
Christian
>
> -Bertrand
>
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Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 5:35 PM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The default sponsor is the incubator PMC. if you just put that in a
> proposal and offer it up, it just happens.
>
> Board sponsorship happens for 'special' circumstances (like OO), and I
> don't pretend to understand why it's important.
This makes it even more confusing to me. It is really overengineered ;-)
>
> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 11:33 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 5:18 PM, Christian Grobmeier
>> <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I was looking into that:
>>> http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Roles_and_Responsibilities.html#Sponsor
>>>
>>> And thought, if an upcoming podling is deciding to become a TLD it
>>> should ask the board to sponsor it.
>>> Now I have been told from Andrus that this is not the case and usually
>>> the Incubator is sponsoring TLD projects.
>>
>> Yes, as I said on the board list I don't remember the board sponsoring
>> incubating projects recently.
>>
>>>...how is the way to have the
>>> Incubator as a sponsor? Just asking? Just adding to the proposal? ...
>>
>> Yes, just add it and people will complain if they see a problem.
>>
>>> ...If this is the case, then is "Champion" obsolete? Actually I was always
>>> doubting this role a bit....
>>
>> The champion is a person, while the sponsor is a PMC - what makes you
>> think the champion role is obsolete?
>>
>> -Bertrand
>>
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Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
Hello guys,
>> We used that for getting an Apache-licensed J2EE server (Geronimo), but we
>> did *not* for OOo. We left that decision to the IPMC. I believe the concept
>> is obsolete and can be removed from the docs. I do not forsee the Board
>> taking such an action in the future.
>
> If my memory serves me, the OO proposal listed the board as the
> sponsor, yet we handled it as a decision of the ipmc like any other.
> I'm in favor of your idea of removing it from the doc. The board can
> always take its fiat out for a drive if some extraordinary
> circumstance arises some day.
I have already removed it from the docs today (see commit log) as I
understood from our discussion.
Cheers,
Christian
>
>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -g
>> On Sep 20, 2011 4:36 PM, "Benson Margulies" <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> The default sponsor is the incubator PMC. if you just put that in a
>>> proposal and offer it up, it just happens.
>>>
>>> Board sponsorship happens for 'special' circumstances (like OO), and I
>>> don't pretend to understand why it's important.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 11:33 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
>>> <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 5:18 PM, Christian Grobmeier
>>>> <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I was looking into that:
>>>>>
>> http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Roles_and_Responsibilities.html#Sponsor
>>>>>
>>>>> And thought, if an upcoming podling is deciding to become a TLD it
>>>>> should ask the board to sponsor it.
>>>>> Now I have been told from Andrus that this is not the case and usually
>>>>> the Incubator is sponsoring TLD projects.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, as I said on the board list I don't remember the board sponsoring
>>>> incubating projects recently.
>>>>
>>>>>...how is the way to have the
>>>>> Incubator as a sponsor? Just asking? Just adding to the proposal? ...
>>>>
>>>> Yes, just add it and people will complain if they see a problem.
>>>>
>>>>> ...If this is the case, then is "Champion" obsolete? Actually I was
>> always
>>>>> doubting this role a bit....
>>>>
>>>> The champion is a person, while the sponsor is a PMC - what makes you
>>>> think the champion role is obsolete?
>>>>
>>>> -Bertrand
>>>>
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Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 11:50 AM, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Board sponsorship equates to mandate: the Incubator PMC has no choice in the
> matter.
>
> We used that for getting an Apache-licensed J2EE server (Geronimo), but we
> did *not* for OOo. We left that decision to the IPMC. I believe the concept
> is obsolete and can be removed from the docs. I do not forsee the Board
> taking such an action in the future.
If my memory serves me, the OO proposal listed the board as the
sponsor, yet we handled it as a decision of the ipmc like any other.
I'm in favor of your idea of removing it from the doc. The board can
always take its fiat out for a drive if some extraordinary
circumstance arises some day.
>
> Cheers,
> -g
> On Sep 20, 2011 4:36 PM, "Benson Margulies" <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The default sponsor is the incubator PMC. if you just put that in a
>> proposal and offer it up, it just happens.
>>
>> Board sponsorship happens for 'special' circumstances (like OO), and I
>> don't pretend to understand why it's important.
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 11:33 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
>> <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 5:18 PM, Christian Grobmeier
>>> <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I was looking into that:
>>>>
> http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Roles_and_Responsibilities.html#Sponsor
>>>>
>>>> And thought, if an upcoming podling is deciding to become a TLD it
>>>> should ask the board to sponsor it.
>>>> Now I have been told from Andrus that this is not the case and usually
>>>> the Incubator is sponsoring TLD projects.
>>>
>>> Yes, as I said on the board list I don't remember the board sponsoring
>>> incubating projects recently.
>>>
>>>>...how is the way to have the
>>>> Incubator as a sponsor? Just asking? Just adding to the proposal? ...
>>>
>>> Yes, just add it and people will complain if they see a problem.
>>>
>>>> ...If this is the case, then is "Champion" obsolete? Actually I was
> always
>>>> doubting this role a bit....
>>>
>>> The champion is a person, while the sponsor is a PMC - what makes you
>>> think the champion role is obsolete?
>>>
>>> -Bertrand
>>>
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>>
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Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
Board sponsorship equates to mandate: the Incubator PMC has no choice in the
matter.
We used that for getting an Apache-licensed J2EE server (Geronimo), but we
did *not* for OOo. We left that decision to the IPMC. I believe the concept
is obsolete and can be removed from the docs. I do not forsee the Board
taking such an action in the future.
Cheers,
-g
On Sep 20, 2011 4:36 PM, "Benson Margulies" <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The default sponsor is the incubator PMC. if you just put that in a
> proposal and offer it up, it just happens.
>
> Board sponsorship happens for 'special' circumstances (like OO), and I
> don't pretend to understand why it's important.
>
> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 11:33 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 5:18 PM, Christian Grobmeier
>> <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I was looking into that:
>>>
http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Roles_and_Responsibilities.html#Sponsor
>>>
>>> And thought, if an upcoming podling is deciding to become a TLD it
>>> should ask the board to sponsor it.
>>> Now I have been told from Andrus that this is not the case and usually
>>> the Incubator is sponsoring TLD projects.
>>
>> Yes, as I said on the board list I don't remember the board sponsoring
>> incubating projects recently.
>>
>>>...how is the way to have the
>>> Incubator as a sponsor? Just asking? Just adding to the proposal? ...
>>
>> Yes, just add it and people will complain if they see a problem.
>>
>>> ...If this is the case, then is "Champion" obsolete? Actually I was
always
>>> doubting this role a bit....
>>
>> The champion is a person, while the sponsor is a PMC - what makes you
>> think the champion role is obsolete?
>>
>> -Bertrand
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
>
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Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
The default sponsor is the incubator PMC. if you just put that in a
proposal and offer it up, it just happens.
Board sponsorship happens for 'special' circumstances (like OO), and I
don't pretend to understand why it's important.
On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 11:33 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
<bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 5:18 PM, Christian Grobmeier
> <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I was looking into that:
>> http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Roles_and_Responsibilities.html#Sponsor
>>
>> And thought, if an upcoming podling is deciding to become a TLD it
>> should ask the board to sponsor it.
>> Now I have been told from Andrus that this is not the case and usually
>> the Incubator is sponsoring TLD projects.
>
> Yes, as I said on the board list I don't remember the board sponsoring
> incubating projects recently.
>
>>...how is the way to have the
>> Incubator as a sponsor? Just asking? Just adding to the proposal? ...
>
> Yes, just add it and people will complain if they see a problem.
>
>> ...If this is the case, then is "Champion" obsolete? Actually I was always
>> doubting this role a bit....
>
> The champion is a person, while the sponsor is a PMC - what makes you
> think the champion role is obsolete?
>
> -Bertrand
>
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>
>
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Re: Confusion: Sponsoring entity and Champions
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi,
On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 5:18 PM, Christian Grobmeier
<gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was looking into that:
> http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Roles_and_Responsibilities.html#Sponsor
>
> And thought, if an upcoming podling is deciding to become a TLD it
> should ask the board to sponsor it.
> Now I have been told from Andrus that this is not the case and usually
> the Incubator is sponsoring TLD projects.
Yes, as I said on the board list I don't remember the board sponsoring
incubating projects recently.
>...how is the way to have the
> Incubator as a sponsor? Just asking? Just adding to the proposal? ...
Yes, just add it and people will complain if they see a problem.
> ...If this is the case, then is "Champion" obsolete? Actually I was always
> doubting this role a bit....
The champion is a person, while the sponsor is a PMC - what makes you
think the champion role is obsolete?
-Bertrand
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