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Posted to dev@excalibur.apache.org by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org> on 2004/09/10 13:44:23 UTC
Excalibur project FOG=-100
Hi,
I have seen that the Excalibur project bluntly consider Gump an "annoyance",
and pragmatically killed all the hard effort that I and Stefan put into get
Excalibur sources in order earlier this year.
Apparently the Excalibur community has no respect for the Gump principle, and
not willing to participate like most other ASF projects. When changes to the
Excalibur codebase has been made, no consideration has been taken to look at
the consequences and remedies for Gump and dependent projects.
Not only do I find this to be "bad attitude", but also a sign of "no respect"
to people who have put in a lot of effort to get that particular codebase to
become a Friend of Gump.
Is it really too much to ask, Can you please manage to maintain build
compatibility and fix breaks that are introduced??
Apparently it is, since all the notifications has been turned off and more and
more Excalibur projects no longer builds. It will only be a matter of time
before Excalibur is back into its former terrible state, and we are back to
<30% build ratio... This is very sad!!!
I am considering reverting the excalibur projects in Gump back to the Avalon
version until the Excalibur community smartens up in respect to Gump. At
least the Avalon-excalibur codebase is build operational, except for some
alt-rmi stuff, which I perhaps can get working anyway.
Cheers
Niclas
P.S. Really needed to get this off my chest, since there seems to be certain
levels of hippocracy floating around...
--
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/ http://niclas.hedhman.org /
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Re: Excalibur project FOG=-100
Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
On Fri, 10 Sep 2004, Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org> wrote:
> Also, since then, I believe that the Maven runner has been enhanced,
> and should be able to build against your Maven POMs...
Absolutely, we are building a few projects with Maven directly -
nothing too fancy yet - but I'm rather sure it should work for
Excalibur.
Stefan
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Re: Excalibur project FOG=-100
Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
On Fri, 10 Sep 2004, Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org> wrote:
> Also, since then, I believe that the Maven runner has been enhanced,
> and should be able to build against your Maven POMs...
Absolutely, we are building a few projects with Maven directly -
nothing too fancy yet - but I'm rather sure it should work for
Excalibur.
Stefan
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Re: Excalibur project FOG=-100
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Friday 10 September 2004 22:03, Berin Loritsch wrote:
> Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> > Hi,
> > I have seen that the Excalibur project bluntly consider Gump an
> > "annoyance", and pragmatically killed all the hard effort that I and
> > Stefan put into get Excalibur sources in order earlier this year.
>
> It was not intended to slight you or Stefan in any way. The truth is
> that we really aren't sure how to get Maven builds and Gump to be happy
> together. It's not something that is common knowlege and it is not easy
> to maintain.
Excalibur under Avalon was building with Maven, and had an Ant wrapper for
Gump in place, mainly courtesy of Leo Simons I think.
To keep it running can't be that big a deal.
Also, since then, I believe that the Maven runner has been enhanced, and
should be able to build against your Maven POMs...
> <snip/>
>
> > I am considering reverting the excalibur projects in Gump back to the
> > Avalon version until the Excalibur community smartens up in respect to
> > Gump. At least the Avalon-excalibur codebase is build operational, except
> > for some alt-rmi stuff, which I perhaps can get working anyway.
>
> You are one of the few people who know how to get Gump running, but it
> isn't fair to you to be the only one maintaining it. I'm not aware of
> any good step by step instructions to get Gump working again.
It is just about as simple as it could possibly get, but I agree that docs are
spread out and hard to locate, many concepts are unclear who the target
audience is (most the average maintainer doesn't need to know).
BUT, Stefan and Adam provides excellent support, and welcomes anyone making an
effort.
> Alot of the Excalibur codebase is dependant on a number of other
> projects which does complicate things too. If those dependencies
> change, then making it work again is hard mainly because of the
> lag time. Make a change to the config file, wait 8 hours, wash/rinse/
> repeat until it comes clean.
I haven't checked, but the same goes down the line in even stronger waves.
There were 200 projects in ASF depending on Avalon material, and I assume
(have not checked) that there are something similar for Excalibur.
Ignoring such fact doesn't help.
> The real problem is making it easy.
No, the "real problem" is to be a bit more careful when one make the changes
of the codebase, and ensure that Gump and everything downstream still are
happy. Ignorance of this just creates problems for others at some point in
time later. Small steps would basically never created this problem. There has
been two major steps here; The move out of Avalon was one, in which case Gump
was just ignored. Followed by a quite large 'clean up' operation, which also
ignored any tie-back to Gump.
It is a damage that has been done, and I am not a Excalibur committer and
won't be the one who tries to put it back in order.
> > Cheers
> > Niclas
> >
> > P.S. Really needed to get this off my chest, since there seems to be
> > certain levels of hippocracy floating around...
>
> To be honest, I am pro the concept of Gump, but all my attempts at
> maintaining the Gump build have been very frustrating. I tried to
> get it set up on my local machine, but I don't have the space or the
> patience to get it working. At least that is my reality. I just wish
> it were easier to make Gump work and to test the Gump build.
I totally agree. Will it happen? I don't think any time soon, but it should be
moving in the right direction by now. Whether Python is the best tool has
also been debated, and I have no other opinion than it keeps many Java
experts out of the loop. OTOH, the Java-based Gump had its own weird
problems.
Cheers
Niclas
--
+------//-------------------+
/ http://www.bali.ac /
/ http://niclas.hedhman.org /
+------//-------------------+
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Re: Excalibur project FOG=-100
Posted by hammett <ha...@uol.com.br>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Berin Loritsch" <bl...@d-haven.org>
> To be honest, I am pro the concept of Gump, but all my attempts at
> maintaining the Gump build have been very frustrating. I tried to
> get it set up on my local machine, but I don't have the space or the
> patience to get it working. At least that is my reality. I just wish
> it were easier to make Gump work and to test the Gump build.
We all are, but maybe there is something completely wrong about it. It's
intrusive, unnecessarily complex... Gosh.
How codehaus solve this problem: http://builds.codehaus.org/public/dashboard
--
hammett
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Re: Excalibur project FOG=-100
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Friday 10 September 2004 22:03, Berin Loritsch wrote:
> Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> > Hi,
> > I have seen that the Excalibur project bluntly consider Gump an
> > "annoyance", and pragmatically killed all the hard effort that I and
> > Stefan put into get Excalibur sources in order earlier this year.
>
> It was not intended to slight you or Stefan in any way. The truth is
> that we really aren't sure how to get Maven builds and Gump to be happy
> together. It's not something that is common knowlege and it is not easy
> to maintain.
Excalibur under Avalon was building with Maven, and had an Ant wrapper for
Gump in place, mainly courtesy of Leo Simons I think.
To keep it running can't be that big a deal.
Also, since then, I believe that the Maven runner has been enhanced, and
should be able to build against your Maven POMs...
> <snip/>
>
> > I am considering reverting the excalibur projects in Gump back to the
> > Avalon version until the Excalibur community smartens up in respect to
> > Gump. At least the Avalon-excalibur codebase is build operational, except
> > for some alt-rmi stuff, which I perhaps can get working anyway.
>
> You are one of the few people who know how to get Gump running, but it
> isn't fair to you to be the only one maintaining it. I'm not aware of
> any good step by step instructions to get Gump working again.
It is just about as simple as it could possibly get, but I agree that docs are
spread out and hard to locate, many concepts are unclear who the target
audience is (most the average maintainer doesn't need to know).
BUT, Stefan and Adam provides excellent support, and welcomes anyone making an
effort.
> Alot of the Excalibur codebase is dependant on a number of other
> projects which does complicate things too. If those dependencies
> change, then making it work again is hard mainly because of the
> lag time. Make a change to the config file, wait 8 hours, wash/rinse/
> repeat until it comes clean.
I haven't checked, but the same goes down the line in even stronger waves.
There were 200 projects in ASF depending on Avalon material, and I assume
(have not checked) that there are something similar for Excalibur.
Ignoring such fact doesn't help.
> The real problem is making it easy.
No, the "real problem" is to be a bit more careful when one make the changes
of the codebase, and ensure that Gump and everything downstream still are
happy. Ignorance of this just creates problems for others at some point in
time later. Small steps would basically never created this problem. There has
been two major steps here; The move out of Avalon was one, in which case Gump
was just ignored. Followed by a quite large 'clean up' operation, which also
ignored any tie-back to Gump.
It is a damage that has been done, and I am not a Excalibur committer and
won't be the one who tries to put it back in order.
> > Cheers
> > Niclas
> >
> > P.S. Really needed to get this off my chest, since there seems to be
> > certain levels of hippocracy floating around...
>
> To be honest, I am pro the concept of Gump, but all my attempts at
> maintaining the Gump build have been very frustrating. I tried to
> get it set up on my local machine, but I don't have the space or the
> patience to get it working. At least that is my reality. I just wish
> it were easier to make Gump work and to test the Gump build.
I totally agree. Will it happen? I don't think any time soon, but it should be
moving in the right direction by now. Whether Python is the best tool has
also been debated, and I have no other opinion than it keeps many Java
experts out of the loop. OTOH, the Java-based Gump had its own weird
problems.
Cheers
Niclas
--
+------//-------------------+
/ http://www.bali.ac /
/ http://niclas.hedhman.org /
+------//-------------------+
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Apache Excalibur Project -- URL: http://excalibur.apache.org/
Re: Excalibur project FOG=-100
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@d-haven.org>.
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> Hi,
> I have seen that the Excalibur project bluntly consider Gump an "annoyance",
> and pragmatically killed all the hard effort that I and Stefan put into get
> Excalibur sources in order earlier this year.
It was not intended to slight you or Stefan in any way. The truth is
that we really aren't sure how to get Maven builds and Gump to be happy
together. It's not something that is common knowlege and it is not easy
to maintain.
<snip/>
> I am considering reverting the excalibur projects in Gump back to the Avalon
> version until the Excalibur community smartens up in respect to Gump. At
> least the Avalon-excalibur codebase is build operational, except for some
> alt-rmi stuff, which I perhaps can get working anyway.
You are one of the few people who know how to get Gump running, but it
isn't fair to you to be the only one maintaining it. I'm not aware of
any good step by step instructions to get Gump working again.
Alot of the Excalibur codebase is dependant on a number of other
projects which does complicate things too. If those dependencies
change, then making it work again is hard mainly because of the
lag time. Make a change to the config file, wait 8 hours, wash/rinse/
repeat until it comes clean.
The real problem is making it easy.
>
> Cheers
> Niclas
>
> P.S. Really needed to get this off my chest, since there seems to be certain
> levels of hippocracy floating around...
>
To be honest, I am pro the concept of Gump, but all my attempts at
maintaining the Gump build have been very frustrating. I tried to
get it set up on my local machine, but I don't have the space or the
patience to get it working. At least that is my reality. I just wish
it were easier to make Gump work and to test the Gump build.
--
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to
build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to
produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."
- Rich Cook
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