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Posted to dev@struts.apache.org by Matthias Wessendorf <mw...@pironet-ndh.com> on 2005/08/24 10:24:16 UTC
[OT] RE: [ANNOUNCEMENT] New Struts Committer: Gary vanMatre
ah...
were did you read it ?!?
> Rod Johnson and many others. But, that should be a start to
> think about, Dave.
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Re: [OT] RE: [ANNOUNCEMENT] New Struts Committer: Gary vanMatre
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Well, you aren't doing a great job, David, because what you have never
noticed happened again this last week. Why don't you try doing a
search for SHALE and JSF for the last week? I really don't think this
is a big deal, but wonder why someone would bother saying what was
going on here without making at least a cursory check. Anyway, your
suggestion is clearly mistaken.
On 8/25/05, David Durham <dd...@vailsys.com> wrote:
> Dakota Jack wrote:
> > First, comparing Struts and JSF is like comparing C++ and Visual
> > Basic. Struts is REQUEST-DRIVEN MVC and JSF (Shale) is PAGE CENTRIC
> > RAD (rapid development with tools as in VB). Anyone that cannot see
> > they don't go together, frankly, is not that insightful, in my
> > opinion. The present idea that they go together is one of the more
> > interesting marketing ploys in my recent experience. I have to admit
> > that Craig is not only a superb coder but also a clever politician. I
> > would have bet big money that no one could convince the Struts
> > community to share a bedroom with JSF. I would have lost. I still am
> > amazed.
> >
> > Second, Rod Johnson only has three books out that I know of. There is
> > a whole section on web frameworks in Ch. 13 of Expert One-on-One J2EE
> > Development without EJB. That is where I "read it". You can read the
> > same thing from numerous other folks in the Struts lists as well. Of
> > course, if you don't want to see it, you won't.
> >
> > Third, I am amazed that people who consider themselves to be expert in
> > this area, and who should be expert in this area given their status,
> > people such as yourself, Matthias, even argue this point. A modicum
> > of understanding of the two frameworks shows that they are like night
> > and day. Indeed, Craig is constantly trumpeting that JSF is a "new
> > deal" which should tell you that it is not what he now decries as the
> > "old deal", Struts. He says it is a huge architectural shift. He is
> > right. You CANNOT combine the two. You CAN mix them into what is
> > essentially a mush, a hodge-podge. But, you cannot combine them. You
> > have to have a switch that chooses one over the other in the mix.
> > That is what Rod Johnson says and that is what I agree with.
> >
> > Fourth, I am about to leave the debate arena on this one, however.
> > This is all too nutty for me to stick with any longer. I don't mind a
> > good spirited debate on architecture, but I am not intersted in a
> > political community with its head in the sand. When a VB expert is
> > voted into the C++ expert community, that is enough for me. And, when
> > a JSF expert is voted into the Struts community, that is enough for
> > me. I have to admit that I am completely enamored anyway with the
> > Spring IoC and AOP approach and believe that a one can build something
> > akin to the Struts package there. I will, of course, remain
> > interested in Struts even though the interest will be more one of
> > morbid fascination with the process that is happening here.
> >
> > Cheers!
>
> Thanks, I'm following this list off and on, but fairly regularly, I
> don't recall anyone else saying "hey, this shouldn't be in struts". I
> have no doubt that others feel the way you do, just interested in some
> names that's all. I don't think this is a decision that's made based on
> technical merits as you suggest it should. From what I can tell, this
> is a community effort as much as it is a technical effort.
>
>
> - Dave
>
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>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
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Re: [OT] RE: [ANNOUNCEMENT] New Struts Committer: Gary vanMatre
Posted by David Durham <dd...@vailsys.com>.
Dakota Jack wrote:
> First, comparing Struts and JSF is like comparing C++ and Visual
> Basic. Struts is REQUEST-DRIVEN MVC and JSF (Shale) is PAGE CENTRIC
> RAD (rapid development with tools as in VB). Anyone that cannot see
> they don't go together, frankly, is not that insightful, in my
> opinion. The present idea that they go together is one of the more
> interesting marketing ploys in my recent experience. I have to admit
> that Craig is not only a superb coder but also a clever politician. I
> would have bet big money that no one could convince the Struts
> community to share a bedroom with JSF. I would have lost. I still am
> amazed.
>
> Second, Rod Johnson only has three books out that I know of. There is
> a whole section on web frameworks in Ch. 13 of Expert One-on-One J2EE
> Development without EJB. That is where I "read it". You can read the
> same thing from numerous other folks in the Struts lists as well. Of
> course, if you don't want to see it, you won't.
>
> Third, I am amazed that people who consider themselves to be expert in
> this area, and who should be expert in this area given their status,
> people such as yourself, Matthias, even argue this point. A modicum
> of understanding of the two frameworks shows that they are like night
> and day. Indeed, Craig is constantly trumpeting that JSF is a "new
> deal" which should tell you that it is not what he now decries as the
> "old deal", Struts. He says it is a huge architectural shift. He is
> right. You CANNOT combine the two. You CAN mix them into what is
> essentially a mush, a hodge-podge. But, you cannot combine them. You
> have to have a switch that chooses one over the other in the mix.
> That is what Rod Johnson says and that is what I agree with.
>
> Fourth, I am about to leave the debate arena on this one, however.
> This is all too nutty for me to stick with any longer. I don't mind a
> good spirited debate on architecture, but I am not intersted in a
> political community with its head in the sand. When a VB expert is
> voted into the C++ expert community, that is enough for me. And, when
> a JSF expert is voted into the Struts community, that is enough for
> me. I have to admit that I am completely enamored anyway with the
> Spring IoC and AOP approach and believe that a one can build something
> akin to the Struts package there. I will, of course, remain
> interested in Struts even though the interest will be more one of
> morbid fascination with the process that is happening here.
>
> Cheers!
Thanks, I'm following this list off and on, but fairly regularly, I
don't recall anyone else saying "hey, this shouldn't be in struts". I
have no doubt that others feel the way you do, just interested in some
names that's all. I don't think this is a decision that's made based on
technical merits as you suggest it should. From what I can tell, this
is a community effort as much as it is a technical effort.
- Dave
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Re: [OT] RE: [ANNOUNCEMENT] New Struts Committer: Gary vanMatre
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
First, comparing Struts and JSF is like comparing C++ and Visual
Basic. Struts is REQUEST-DRIVEN MVC and JSF (Shale) is PAGE CENTRIC
RAD (rapid development with tools as in VB). Anyone that cannot see
they don't go together, frankly, is not that insightful, in my
opinion. The present idea that they go together is one of the more
interesting marketing ploys in my recent experience. I have to admit
that Craig is not only a superb coder but also a clever politician. I
would have bet big money that no one could convince the Struts
community to share a bedroom with JSF. I would have lost. I still am
amazed.
Second, Rod Johnson only has three books out that I know of. There is
a whole section on web frameworks in Ch. 13 of Expert One-on-One J2EE
Development without EJB. That is where I "read it". You can read the
same thing from numerous other folks in the Struts lists as well. Of
course, if you don't want to see it, you won't.
Third, I am amazed that people who consider themselves to be expert in
this area, and who should be expert in this area given their status,
people such as yourself, Matthias, even argue this point. A modicum
of understanding of the two frameworks shows that they are like night
and day. Indeed, Craig is constantly trumpeting that JSF is a "new
deal" which should tell you that it is not what he now decries as the
"old deal", Struts. He says it is a huge architectural shift. He is
right. You CANNOT combine the two. You CAN mix them into what is
essentially a mush, a hodge-podge. But, you cannot combine them. You
have to have a switch that chooses one over the other in the mix.
That is what Rod Johnson says and that is what I agree with.
Fourth, I am about to leave the debate arena on this one, however.
This is all too nutty for me to stick with any longer. I don't mind a
good spirited debate on architecture, but I am not intersted in a
political community with its head in the sand. When a VB expert is
voted into the C++ expert community, that is enough for me. And, when
a JSF expert is voted into the Struts community, that is enough for
me. I have to admit that I am completely enamored anyway with the
Spring IoC and AOP approach and believe that a one can build something
akin to the Struts package there. I will, of course, remain
interested in Struts even though the interest will be more one of
morbid fascination with the process that is happening here.
Cheers!
On 8/24/05, Matthias Wessendorf <mw...@pironet-ndh.com> wrote:
> ah...
>
> were did you read it ?!?
>
> > Rod Johnson and many others. But, that should be a start to
> > think about, Dave.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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