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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> on 2011/11/24 16:14:50 UTC
Does Apache Have a 'Rule' Problem, or does the Incubator sometimes
just make it look that way?
When the hot air manufacturers start ragging on us, one of the usual
tags that they paint is 'rules' and 'bureaucracy'. If you read
general@, you will see a fairly regular occurrence that feeds this
perception.
Someone poses a question about NOTICE files, or IP, or release structure.
If they are lucky, they get 3 disagreeing responses in short order.
Why lucky? Because that gives them a clue that perhaps none of them
are the right answer. If they are unlucky, they get a one answer,
confidently worded. And then they put in hours of work based on that
answer.
Time passes. A release, or even a graduation vote arrives. Suddenly,
some crusty veteran arrives on the scene to tell them that what
they've done is wrong, or inadequate, or purple.
This is not precisely wonderful from a PR standpoint.
What can we do as a PMC to improve this?
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Re: Does Apache Have a 'Rule' Problem, or does the Incubator sometimes just make it look that way?
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
----- Original Message -----
> From: sebb <se...@gmail.com>
> To: general@incubator.apache.org; Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>
> Cc:
> Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 11:07 AM
> Subject: Re: Does Apache Have a 'Rule' Problem, or does the Incubator sometimes just make it look that way?
>
> On 24 November 2011 15:18, Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Coordination problems (getting everyone here on the same page)
>> require community documentation and constant pointers to said
>> documentation in order to be fully resolved.
>>
>> Whenever we find ourselves making contradicting statements over
>> time, the healthy thing to do is to put together such a document
>> on the wiki or on the site that explains what happened and how
>> we resolved it.
>
> Indeed, that is mainly why Ant and I raised questions on board@ about
> what a release means, and for clarifications on the Release FAQ.
Personally I am always reluctant to make spur-of-the-moment changes
to that doc, as the current prose represents an uneasy compromise
worked out over a long period of time.
>
> Unfortunately, there was no definitive conclusion to the thread, and
> no clarifications of the FAQ.
>
>>
>> Simply referring to past emails here is inconclusive at best
>> unless they are comments from the chair.
>
> +1
>
>> YMMV
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>
>>> To: general@incubator.apache.org
>>> Cc:
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 10:14 AM
>>> Subject: Does Apache Have a 'Rule' Problem, or does the
> Incubator sometimes just make it look that way?
>>>
>>> When the hot air manufacturers start ragging on us, one of the usual
>>> tags that they paint is 'rules' and 'bureaucracy'. If
> you read
>>> general@, you will see a fairly regular occurrence that feeds this
>>> perception.
>>>
>>> Someone poses a question about NOTICE files, or IP, or release
> structure.
>>>
>>> If they are lucky, they get 3 disagreeing responses in short order.
>>> Why lucky? Because that gives them a clue that perhaps none of them
>>> are the right answer. If they are unlucky, they get a one answer,
>>> confidently worded. And then they put in hours of work based on that
>>> answer.
>>>
>>> Time passes. A release, or even a graduation vote arrives. Suddenly,
>>> some crusty veteran arrives on the scene to tell them that what
>>> they've done is wrong, or inadequate, or purple.
>>>
>>> This is not precisely wonderful from a PR standpoint.
>>>
>>> What can we do as a PMC to improve this?
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
>
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Re: Does Apache Have a 'Rule' Problem, or does the Incubator
sometimes just make it look that way?
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On 24 November 2011 15:18, Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Coordination problems (getting everyone here on the same page)
> require community documentation and constant pointers to said
> documentation in order to be fully resolved.
>
> Whenever we find ourselves making contradicting statements over
> time, the healthy thing to do is to put together such a document
> on the wiki or on the site that explains what happened and how
> we resolved it.
Indeed, that is mainly why Ant and I raised questions on board@ about
what a release means, and for clarifications on the Release FAQ.
Unfortunately, there was no definitive conclusion to the thread, and
no clarifications of the FAQ.
>
> Simply referring to past emails here is inconclusive at best
> unless they are comments from the chair.
+1
> YMMV
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>
>> To: general@incubator.apache.org
>> Cc:
>> Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 10:14 AM
>> Subject: Does Apache Have a 'Rule' Problem, or does the Incubator sometimes just make it look that way?
>>
>> When the hot air manufacturers start ragging on us, one of the usual
>> tags that they paint is 'rules' and 'bureaucracy'. If you read
>> general@, you will see a fairly regular occurrence that feeds this
>> perception.
>>
>> Someone poses a question about NOTICE files, or IP, or release structure.
>>
>> If they are lucky, they get 3 disagreeing responses in short order.
>> Why lucky? Because that gives them a clue that perhaps none of them
>> are the right answer. If they are unlucky, they get a one answer,
>> confidently worded. And then they put in hours of work based on that
>> answer.
>>
>> Time passes. A release, or even a graduation vote arrives. Suddenly,
>> some crusty veteran arrives on the scene to tell them that what
>> they've done is wrong, or inadequate, or purple.
>>
>> This is not precisely wonderful from a PR standpoint.
>>
>> What can we do as a PMC to improve this?
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>
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>
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Re: Does Apache Have a 'Rule' Problem, or does the Incubator sometimes
just make it look that way?
Posted by Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org>.
Amen, brother! If it's not checked into the website, it doesn't count
as documentation that's actually useful to most people.
Being more successful (and we've certainly gotten better) at getting
sufficient consensus on the right way to do something and then clearly
writing it down once at a stable URL would be a huge win for all sorts
of our processes.
- Shane, who himself is often guilty of answering the question on email
and failing to do the right thing to update the doc and point to that as
the proper (and permanent URL'd) answer
On 2011-11-24 10:18 AM, Joe Schaefer wrote:
> Coordination problems (getting everyone here on the same page)
> require community documentation and constant pointers to said
> documentation in order to be fully resolved.
>
> Whenever we find ourselves making contradicting statements over
> time, the healthy thing to do is to put together such a document
> on the wiki or on the site that explains what happened and how
> we resolved it.
>
>
> Simply referring to past emails here is inconclusive at best
> unless they are comments from the chair.
>
> YMMV
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Benson Margulies<bi...@gmail.com>
>> To: general@incubator.apache.org
>> Cc:
>> Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 10:14 AM
>> Subject: Does Apache Have a 'Rule' Problem, or does the Incubator sometimes just make it look that way?
>>
>> When the hot air manufacturers start ragging on us, one of the usual
>> tags that they paint is 'rules' and 'bureaucracy'. If you read
>> general@, you will see a fairly regular occurrence that feeds this
>> perception.
>>
>> Someone poses a question about NOTICE files, or IP, or release structure.
>>
>> If they are lucky, they get 3 disagreeing responses in short order.
>> Why lucky? Because that gives them a clue that perhaps none of them
>> are the right answer. If they are unlucky, they get a one answer,
>> confidently worded. And then they put in hours of work based on that
>> answer.
>>
>> Time passes. A release, or even a graduation vote arrives. Suddenly,
>> some crusty veteran arrives on the scene to tell them that what
>> they've done is wrong, or inadequate, or purple.
>>
>> This is not precisely wonderful from a PR standpoint.
>>
>> What can we do as a PMC to improve this?
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
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Re: Does Apache Have a 'Rule' Problem, or does the Incubator sometimes just make it look that way?
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
Coordination problems (getting everyone here on the same page)
require community documentation and constant pointers to said
documentation in order to be fully resolved.
Whenever we find ourselves making contradicting statements over
time, the healthy thing to do is to put together such a document
on the wiki or on the site that explains what happened and how
we resolved it.
Simply referring to past emails here is inconclusive at best
unless they are comments from the chair.
YMMV
----- Original Message -----
> From: Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>
> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> Cc:
> Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 10:14 AM
> Subject: Does Apache Have a 'Rule' Problem, or does the Incubator sometimes just make it look that way?
>
> When the hot air manufacturers start ragging on us, one of the usual
> tags that they paint is 'rules' and 'bureaucracy'. If you read
> general@, you will see a fairly regular occurrence that feeds this
> perception.
>
> Someone poses a question about NOTICE files, or IP, or release structure.
>
> If they are lucky, they get 3 disagreeing responses in short order.
> Why lucky? Because that gives them a clue that perhaps none of them
> are the right answer. If they are unlucky, they get a one answer,
> confidently worded. And then they put in hours of work based on that
> answer.
>
> Time passes. A release, or even a graduation vote arrives. Suddenly,
> some crusty veteran arrives on the scene to tell them that what
> they've done is wrong, or inadequate, or purple.
>
> This is not precisely wonderful from a PR standpoint.
>
> What can we do as a PMC to improve this?
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
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Re: Does Apache Have a 'Rule' Problem, or does the Incubator
sometimes just make it look that way?
Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
>> If we can build such a group, it would be the logical nucleus of a
>> reboot. If not, well, we've got other problems.
>
> Care to give some specifics?
>
> Robert
Robert,
Between my posts at the top of this thread, and all the many messages
on Joe's (I think) thread about the board wanting to delegate
supervision, and my writing on members@ about the pathology of a large
group self-organizing on a mailing list with no one acting as chair or
moderator of the discussion, I think that there's plenty of fodder
here, and no shortage of it from me. Is there really anything else to
add? I wish that the IPMC chair had more time to devote to the working
of this, but he apparently does not.
One of our many ways of wasting time and energy around here is to have
five threads on the same topic.
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Re: Does Apache Have a 'Rule' Problem, or does the Incubator
sometimes just make it look that way?
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 7:41 PM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Christian,
>
> Your proposals read to me as an elaboration and extension of some of
> the things I wrote. I think that Joe S's reaction to me, insofar as I
> understand it, makes some sense.
>
> Let's see if we can find a small group of members of the IPMC who are,
> in fact, willing to take seriously the task of supervision.
I have some personal understanding[1] of the level of individual
commitment that would be required to supervise this many sub-projects.
I recommend that anyone thinking about supporting this proposal
subscribe to all the incubator lists and read every post for a month
or two.
> If we can build such a group, it would be the logical nucleus of a
> reboot. If not, well, we've got other problems.
Care to give some specifics?
Robert
[1] Back in Jakartaland
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Re: Does Apache Have a 'Rule' Problem, or does the Incubator
sometimes just make it look that way?
Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
Christian,
Your proposals read to me as an elaboration and extension of some of
the things I wrote. I think that Joe S's reaction to me, insofar as I
understand it, makes some sense.
Let's see if we can find a small group of members of the IPMC who are,
in fact, willing to take seriously the task of supervision.
If we can build such a group, it would be the logical nucleus of a
reboot. If not, well, we've got other problems.
--benson
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Re: Does Apache Have a 'Rule' Problem, or does the Incubator
sometimes just make it look that way?
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 11:47 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin
<ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> <snip>
>
> On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 9:38 AM, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I do acknowledge that it can be really
>> hard to get some things changed and you may need a thick skin and lots
>> of perseverance. But lets try to demonstrate its possible - Christian
>> tell us three things you'd like changed and we'll pick one and try to
>> fix it right here right now just to show it can be done.
>
> +1
>
> Robert (wondering about an Incubator F2F meetup for rules stomping)
Thanks to both to you for your kind words.
Actually I feel a bit exhausted. I had several heavy discussions
recently on the ASF and now I feel tired. Actually I can't say I have
a thick skin. Speaking of the incubator changes, I have commented on
the various threads about the new "Champion". Anyway, I actually think
the Incubator needs a complete refactoring. So I can't speak of three
items I would like to change, it is one big thing. I have not proposed
it, because: no energy.
Anyway...
The Incubator has more than 100 IPMCs members. Constantly we are
discussing about inactive mentors and overall lack of energy. Now the
proposal is to extend the Champion term and to change the reporting to
the board. I have asked: what do we expect to be on that reports? I
even doubt, having an extended Champion role will cause people to be
more active. We will still have missing reports and inactive mentors.
Is it a surprise? No. We are 100.
And we are not really a community. In fact, we are not even having a
Meritocracy, as the other projects have. On other projects you need to
earn merit and then you are elected as a committer and after earning
more merit, you can become a PMC. At the incubator you earn merit
somewhere, and once you are a Member, you can request membership on
the IPMC. This is a huge exception to my knowledge. The incubator has
many exceptions to standard procedures. That being said, we are a few
active people here and many inactive. We are bloated and we cannot
grow together as a group, because you can walk in and step out as you
please.
Question is, are we already unable to do incubators work? When there
are not the mentioned, few active people on the projects, sometimes
there is no mentoring at all. no actually we don't do a good job in my
eyes (as said, a few exceptions of course). Or we don't have a clue if
we do.
I think we need to change our thinking and finally make up a
community. Not only a list of loose coupled names.
What if we would completely reboot the Incubator? Lets assume:
1) Every ASF committer on a non-podling project can serve as a mentor.
The phrase "Search for a mentor" should be rephrased to: "search for
an ASF committer who is willing to mentor your project".
2) Every ASF committer, who is mentoring a project and shows an
interest in the Incubator, can be elected into the IPMC
3) A podling must have a Champion who helps to get the podling into
the incubator. The champion can be every ASF committer. After the
project has been accepted, the Champion is the one who needs to take
care on reporting. The champion can be elected among ASF committers
(which includes the podling committers).
4) Every podling must have an IPMC member reading the lists
5) Every mentor must sign the report. Mentors who do not sign the
reports three times in a row are not to be considered active
6) Reporting schedule is at it is now. Podlings which fail to report
three times in a row will be terminated, except they have good reasons
7) The IPMC makes up an report. As a community it is easier to report:
who joined, who left, which podling was accepted, which one was not.
8) 3 IPMC votes are necessary to get a release out of the door. 3
Mentor votes are necessary.
9) New Podlings need to bring in their code within 3 months and
CLAs/Grants, or incubation ends, except they good reasons.
10) Podlings in incubation for > 1 year need to be discussed quarterly
by the IPMC. If there is no community, the IPMC might decide to
terminate this podling, because: Community over Code. No Community, no
Code.
Now with just 10 rules we have a small IPMC taking care on the
oversight. We do not need to let every mentor join the IPMC. In fact,
we can get rid of the terms "Mentor" as this is the same as an ASF
committer. The only exception is the "Champion", which in fact is
serving as some kind of podling chair. We could even remove this term
and call it "Podling Chair" which is more similar to what we have in
other projects.
How can we achieve this?
Drop everybody from the IPMC list except our chair. Let him decide 5
people he knows who are active and they elect everybody else in who is
active or has merit to join the IPMC.
Probably there are some flaws in my thinking. But I think it is more
efficient to make tabula rasa and try to be as near to a "standard
apache project" as possible.
Cheers,
Christian
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Re: Does Apache Have a 'Rule' Problem, or does the Incubator
sometimes just make it look that way?
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
<snip>
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 9:38 AM, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I do acknowledge that it can be really
> hard to get some things changed and you may need a thick skin and lots
> of perseverance. But lets try to demonstrate its possible - Christian
> tell us three things you'd like changed and we'll pick one and try to
> fix it right here right now just to show it can be done.
+1
Robert (wondering about an Incubator F2F meetup for rules stomping)
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Re: Does Apache Have a 'Rule' Problem, or does the Incubator
sometimes just make it look that way?
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 11:14 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin
<ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 10:10 AM, Christian Grobmeier
> <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 10:38 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin
>> <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> +1
>>>> And while we are at it, reduce Roles and Rules to a minimum.
>>>
>>> Pruning is always useful but when the Incubator ran with fewer rules
>>> and roles, the process ran much less smoothly which took much more
>>> energy to supervise. I'm not sure that there's enough energy to
>>> supervise so many projects without a smooth process.
>>
>> The process is not smooth, thats why more rules are currently in
>> discussion. Supervising has already failed in some projects. Adding
>> these new rules do not necessary mean that supervising is better;
>> actually I doubt (and have said so).
>
> +1
>
>> Have not seen a pruning recently. My feeling is we are adding more and
>> more rules to a huge rule framework. And it feels always the same
>> people are adding these rules and no one can stop them (not meant as
>> an insult).
>
> It's easy to stop: just start a VOTE or -1 a documentation commit
>
> For example, the issue with the trademark check list item could be
> dealt with either by an effort to provide detailed guidance or by
> dropping the requirement from the check list by telling the board that
> the Incubator expects the brand team to approve names for podlings. If
> you have a strong opinion that we should just drop the requirement,
> jump into the thread.
>
>> This is what frustrates me very much and will prevent me
>> actually to waste more energy in rules/politics discussions.
>
> Then focus your energy on doing, not discussing. Find one example
> which illustrates your criticism and prune it.
>
>> I have no suggestions how to do better at the moment. But adding more
>> and more rules cannot be the solution. I mean this is no fun. We are
>> acting like a company more and more. The time you need to understand,
>> teach and develop this rules are not to underestimate. We even have a
>> code of conduct. That all is no prime time stuff anymore and no fun.
>> And in my world, Open Source is not only a business model, it is fun
>> at first place. And this means, less but efficient rules.
>
> Rules based systems fail to scale
>
> <snip>
>
>> Cheers,
>> Christian
>> who is very frustrated at the recent developments on the ASF.
>
> Then jump in and get involved with improving stuff :-)
>
> Robert
>
Yeah I agree with Robert though I do acknowledge that it can be really
hard to get some things changed and you may need a thick skin and lots
of perseverance. But lets try to demonstrate its possible - Christian
tell us three things you'd like changed and we'll pick one and try to
fix it right here right now just to show it can be done.
...ant
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Re: Does Apache Have a 'Rule' Problem, or does the Incubator
sometimes just make it look that way?
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 10:10 AM, Christian Grobmeier
<gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 10:38 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin
> <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> +1
>>> And while we are at it, reduce Roles and Rules to a minimum.
>>
>> Pruning is always useful but when the Incubator ran with fewer rules
>> and roles, the process ran much less smoothly which took much more
>> energy to supervise. I'm not sure that there's enough energy to
>> supervise so many projects without a smooth process.
>
> The process is not smooth, thats why more rules are currently in
> discussion. Supervising has already failed in some projects. Adding
> these new rules do not necessary mean that supervising is better;
> actually I doubt (and have said so).
+1
> Have not seen a pruning recently. My feeling is we are adding more and
> more rules to a huge rule framework. And it feels always the same
> people are adding these rules and no one can stop them (not meant as
> an insult).
It's easy to stop: just start a VOTE or -1 a documentation commit
For example, the issue with the trademark check list item could be
dealt with either by an effort to provide detailed guidance or by
dropping the requirement from the check list by telling the board that
the Incubator expects the brand team to approve names for podlings. If
you have a strong opinion that we should just drop the requirement,
jump into the thread.
> This is what frustrates me very much and will prevent me
> actually to waste more energy in rules/politics discussions.
Then focus your energy on doing, not discussing. Find one example
which illustrates your criticism and prune it.
> I have no suggestions how to do better at the moment. But adding more
> and more rules cannot be the solution. I mean this is no fun. We are
> acting like a company more and more. The time you need to understand,
> teach and develop this rules are not to underestimate. We even have a
> code of conduct. That all is no prime time stuff anymore and no fun.
> And in my world, Open Source is not only a business model, it is fun
> at first place. And this means, less but efficient rules.
Rules based systems fail to scale
<snip>
> Cheers,
> Christian
> who is very frustrated at the recent developments on the ASF.
Then jump in and get involved with improving stuff :-)
Robert
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Re: Does Apache Have a 'Rule' Problem, or does the Incubator
sometimes just make it look that way?
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 10:38 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin
<ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> +1
>> And while we are at it, reduce Roles and Rules to a minimum.
>
> Pruning is always useful but when the Incubator ran with fewer rules
> and roles, the process ran much less smoothly which took much more
> energy to supervise. I'm not sure that there's enough energy to
> supervise so many projects without a smooth process.
The process is not smooth, thats why more rules are currently in
discussion. Supervising has already failed in some projects. Adding
these new rules do not necessary mean that supervising is better;
actually I doubt (and have said so).
Have not seen a pruning recently. My feeling is we are adding more and
more rules to a huge rule framework. And it feels always the same
people are adding these rules and no one can stop them (not meant as
an insult). This is what frustrates me very much and will prevent me
actually to waste more energy in rules/politics discussions.
I have no suggestions how to do better at the moment. But adding more
and more rules cannot be the solution. I mean this is no fun. We are
acting like a company more and more. The time you need to understand,
teach and develop this rules are not to underestimate. We even have a
code of conduct. That all is no prime time stuff anymore and no fun.
And in my world, Open Source is not only a business model, it is fun
at first place. And this means, less but efficient rules.
We should try to get back to a minimum, not to a maximum of rules.
Cheers,
Christian
who is very frustrated at the recent developments on the ASF.
--
http://www.grobmeier.de
https://www.timeandbill.de
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Re: Does Apache Have a 'Rule' Problem, or does the Incubator
sometimes just make it look that way?
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 6:30 PM, Christian Grobmeier
<gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 5:57 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>> On Thursday, November 24, 2011, Benson Margulies wrote:
>>
>>> ...Someone poses a question about NOTICE files, or IP, or release
>> structure.
>>
>>> If they are lucky, they get 3 disagreeing responses in short order...
>>
>> ROFL - so
Judges on the US Supreme court have a life time of legal experience.
They rarely agree.
The best way to improve Apache policy making around licensing and
releases is to dive in and get involved.
Copyright law around open source licensing is now well understood. Do
some research, get up to speed and start working on issues. If more
Incubator people set aside just a couple of hours a week to get
involved with resolving licensing then the situation would improve
quickly.
>>> What can we do as a PMC to improve this?...
>>
>> Review and improve the incubator.apache.org docs - and I think this means
>> reducing them to the bare minimum so that we're able to maintain them with
>> our limited manpower, and pointing to apache.org docs as much as possible
>> instead of repeating things.
In principle, probably yes. In practice, the Apache site has been
troubled for many years by lack of energy.
> +1
> And while we are at it, reduce Roles and Rules to a minimum.
Pruning is always useful but when the Incubator ran with fewer rules
and roles, the process ran much less smoothly which took much more
energy to supervise. I'm not sure that there's enough energy to
supervise so many projects without a smooth process.
Robert
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Re: Does Apache Have a 'Rule' Problem, or does the Incubator
sometimes just make it look that way?
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 5:57 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
<bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Thursday, November 24, 2011, Benson Margulies wrote:
>
>> ...Someone poses a question about NOTICE files, or IP, or release
> structure.
>
>> If they are lucky, they get 3 disagreeing responses in short order...
>
> ROFL - so true...
>
>> What can we do as a PMC to improve this?...
>
> Review and improve the incubator.apache.org docs - and I think this means
> reducing them to the bare minimum so that we're able to maintain them with
> our limited manpower, and pointing to apache.org docs as much as possible
> instead of repeating things.
+1
And while we are at it, reduce Roles and Rules to a minimum.
> -Bertrand
--
http://www.grobmeier.de
https://www.timeandbill.de
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Re: Does Apache Have a 'Rule' Problem, or does the Incubator sometimes just make it look that way?
Posted by Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>.
> On Thursday, November 24, 2011, Benson Margulies wrote:
>
>> ...Someone poses a question about NOTICE files, or IP, or release
> structure.
>
>> If they are lucky, they get 3 disagreeing responses in short order...
>
> ROFL - so true...
>
>> What can we do as a PMC to improve this?...
>
> Review and improve the incubator.apache.org docs - and I think this means
> reducing them to the bare minimum so that we're able to maintain them with
> our limited manpower, and pointing to apache.org docs as much as possible
> instead of repeating things.
+1
Jacques
> -Bertrand
>
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Re: Does Apache Have a 'Rule' Problem, or does the Incubator
sometimes just make it look that way?
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Thursday, November 24, 2011, Benson Margulies wrote:
> ...Someone poses a question about NOTICE files, or IP, or release
structure.
> If they are lucky, they get 3 disagreeing responses in short order...
ROFL - so true...
> What can we do as a PMC to improve this?...
Review and improve the incubator.apache.org docs - and I think this means
reducing them to the bare minimum so that we're able to maintain them with
our limited manpower, and pointing to apache.org docs as much as possible
instead of repeating things.
-Bertrand
Re: Does Apache Have a 'Rule' Problem, or does the Incubator
sometimes just make it look that way?
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 3:14 PM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> When the hot air manufacturers start ragging on us, one of the usual
> tags that they paint is 'rules' and 'bureaucracy'. If you read
> general@, you will see a fairly regular occurrence that feeds this
> perception.
>
> Someone poses a question about NOTICE files, or IP, or release structure.
>
> If they are lucky, they get 3 disagreeing responses in short order.
> Why lucky? Because that gives them a clue that perhaps none of them
> are the right answer. If they are unlucky, they get a one answer,
> confidently worded. And then they put in hours of work based on that
> answer.
>
> Time passes. A release, or even a graduation vote arrives. Suddenly,
> some crusty veteran arrives on the scene to tell them that what
> they've done is wrong, or inadequate, or purple.
>
> This is not precisely wonderful from a PR standpoint.
>
> What can we do as a PMC to improve this?
>
I don't think there are actually that many rules, its certainly much
better than it used to be, a lot of the things have been clarified
like the contents of the NOTICE file and there are now simple
procedures in place for other things for example like raising a JIRA
with legal to clarify licensing questions.
One of the causes of problems i think is knowing how to deal with
questions or objections - if someone says something is wrong then ask
for the link to where thats documented if they don't have one its
probably not a rule or it maybe you could ignore the issue for now
till it is documented, if its a link to a CTR type guide or info page
then that doesn't mean the page is actually true so if you think its
wrong you could try just changing the page to match what you think is
correct.
Another thing that can help is to keep reminding about which
situations a -1s is a veto, they're not in many situations including
release votes so if there's -1 which you think its a wacko one then
don't have a massive argument just ignore it.
Another thing that helps is giving people the chance to talk about
things without appearing disruptive - eg have a [DISCUSS] thread
before a [VOTE].
...ant
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