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Posted to users@isis.apache.org by Dan Haywood <da...@haywood-associates.co.uk> on 2012/06/17 12:09:52 UTC
Legal concerns for a Javascript client to Isis' JSON (Rest) viewer
(was: Re: Introduction and another viewer)
I'm going to top-reply to this, cos there's several points made by both
Mark and Adam on the legals, and I can probably just summarize it all here.
I've also changed the subject line.
~~~
Mark... you are right to point out that Adam can't just grab Johan's code,
improve it, and then donate it to Apache. I was getting ahead of myself.
The thing is, I do know that Johan wrote that code himself, because I was
in off-list conversation with him back in Oct/Nov 2011 when he was writing
it from scratch. So I know he owns it. But he would still need to declare
it to be so; an ICLA would cover it.
I'll reach out to Johan myself, hopefully to get him re-enthused, but as a
minimum to get such a declaration that Adam can use that work as a basis
for a future Apache donation.
~~~
Adam... in terms of whether Apache is the right place for your nascent
viewer; I'd say, yes, probably, but it makes sense right now to just hack
away on either github or somewhere else. In fact, Apache does operate the
"Apache Extras" site [1], which has an empty git repo. I've taken the
liberty of adding your email as a committer there, just in case you want to
use it (don't feel obligated to, though). That way, if we do decide that
Apache is the right place eventually, we can do the legals in the
background.
Is Apache the right place, though? Well, it's slightly complicated by the
fact that Restful Objects is a spec, and that there are (as you know) both
JVM and .NET implementations (I'm hoping that I'll find out a way to get
the Ruby community to do one too). So these viewers are bigger than either
Isis or the .NET equivalents.
I know enough about .NET to help with packaging and stuff, though. So one
option is that the viewer lives under Isis (perhaps we'll have some
subprojects once we graduate), and then it'll provide a number of separate
packaging options, one of which is for NuGet.
Whatever... all that's to come. I'll reach out to Johan, and if he
responds (which I'm sure he will) then that'll ensure that your code isn't
IP-poisoned from the outset.
Cheers
Dan
[1] http://code.google.com/a/apache-extras.org/p/isis-extras/
On 16 June 2012 11:33, Mark Struberg <st...@yahoo.de> wrote:
> Btw, I should have split one paragraph:
>
> > 2. Hypothetically, I spend more time on my project and it turns out
> great and
> > everyone wants to use it :P. Would, or should, it live at Apache? I would
> > definitely be willing to donate it.
>
> That would be very cool, and yes (as stated in the paragraph above) I
> think it would fit really well.
>
> All we would need for such a bigger contribution is to file an iCLA [1].
>
>
> txs and LieGrue,
> strub
>
> [1] http://www.apache.org/licenses/icla.txt
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Mark Struberg <st...@yahoo.de>
> > To: "isis-users@incubator.apache.org" <is...@incubator.apache.org>
> > Cc:
> > Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 12:05 PM
> > Subject: Re: Introduction and another viewer
> >
> > Hi Adam!
> >
> > Really good questions and sorry that you tapped into the legal mine
> field that
> > early. I hope this doesn't distract you too much from your intended
> hacking
> > ;)
> >
> >
> > Just to explain the rational behind this a bit further:
> >
> > _every_ OSS developer must be really carefully when it comes to legal
> aspects
> > nowadays (Goog vs Orcl anyone?)
> > This is not folks at ASF being weirdos but we only like to protect our
> > contributors (thus you and others) by making them aware. That's one of
> the
> > reasons for our VOTEs on releases, ip-clearance [1] etc. We even
> maintain an own
> > legal-discuss list where a few pro-bono lawyers, attorneys and even law
> > professors also show up and help us resolving more difficult legal
> questions
> > (big thanks btw!).
> >
> >
> > For the basics: an algorithm cannot be patented and also not being
> > 'protected' via Intellectual Property rights (IP). But copying a bigger
> > source 1:1 is problematic as it can lead to breaching IP.
> > Thus taking the idea of this single loop of 4 lines and rewriting them
> in your
> > own code is absolutely no problem. Simple copying code is never a good
> idea
> > though - be it for only changing code style or reviewing the code that
> way.
> >
> >
> > *skipping the technical ISIS questions, Dan please take over ;) *
> >
> >
> >> 1. Is this the correct forum to discuss these issues? I will
> definitely be
> > using
> >> Isis to generate my Restful Objects with the json-viewer but I don't
> > want to
> >> hijack the mailing list for these kinds of things unless it can
> benefit the
> > Isis
> >> community.
> >
> > It's perfectly fine to discuss it here on the list and even develop the
> > viewer here. If this can be done in a 'portable', way we should take
> > care to keep that part abstract and independent. But it's always a good
> idea
> > to have at least a known server part it interacts well with. If it
> proved stable
> > and universal, we can still split it out into an own project later on.
> Once one
> > becomes an ASF committer on one project it's really easy to 'extend'
> > into other project communities as well ;)
> >
> >
> >> 2. Hypothetically, I spend more time on my project and it turns out
> great
> > and
> >> everyone wants to use it :P. Would, or should, it live at Apache? I
> would
> >> definitely be willing to donate it. But how would it be packaged? It's
> > own
> >> viewer? That doesn't make sense because it needs the json-viewer to
> > operate.
> >> A Maven war overlay of the json-viewer or webpp artifacts? Maybe. What
> if
> > the
> >> .NET guys want it? I'm completely unfamiliar with NuGet and how it
> > manages
> >> packages but I'm guessing it doesn't interoperate with Maven.
> >
> > No clue about that right now. We would need to take a deep look at the
> details.
> > But I'm sure we can solve this!
> >
> >> I develop the code on GitHub under MIT license.
> >> Johan doesn't respond and his code is abandoned.
> >> I like his work so I merge our codebases giving him
> >> attribution. The code is now "IP unclean.
> >
> > There is a very good summary and a license compat matrix here:
> > http://www.apache.org/legal/3party.html
> >
> > MIT is perfectly fine to include in our work. Of course keep the author
> > attribution.
> > I'm not sure how big the parts are you like to 'copy' from him 1:1
> > or if you/we more or less create own 'derivative' work by taking his
> > code as base for _some_ features but changing/adopting/extending it
> ourselfs.
> > This is really often the case if you take code from someone else.
> > We also might try to reach out as PMC, telling him what we like to do
> and if he
> > is cool with that.
> > The worst thing which could happen is imo that we need to rewrite those
> parts we
> > didn't yet touch.
> >
> >
> > LieGrue,
> > strub
> >
> > [1] http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/index.html
> > whoooops, I think we are still missing here ^^
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: Adam Howard <ho...@gmail.com>
> >> To: isis-users@incubator.apache.org
> >> Cc:
> >> Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 5:06 AM
> >> Subject: Re: Introduction and another viewer
> >>
> >> I'm including responses to both Mark and Dan here. I don't know if
> > that
> >> meets
> >> list etiquette. Also should I be including full message history in
> every
> > reply?
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 12:16 PM, Mark Struberg <st...@yahoo.de>
> > wrote:
> >>>
> >>> The point is that here at ASF we only take code if someone explicitly
> >>> gives it to us.
> >>> Of course not if those are only a few lines of code or a pretty
> > straight
> >>> forward basic task without much own work. But it's more complex
> > and
> >>> originary work then we just don't take it.
> >>
> >> So for example, I wanted a unique id for every window and field in my
> ui. I
> >> googled for javascript guid and found a 4 line function that generates
> >> something "kind of like" a guid. Definitely random enough for my
> > use.
> >> Is that a
> >> case where I would need to track down the author and ask if they will
> > donate the
> >> code to ASF. I can think of many levels of scenarios. Is there a
> document
> >> outlining this? I don't want to "poison" my project this
> > early :)
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 8:59 AM, Dan Haywood
> >> <da...@haywood-associates.co.uk>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>>> One of those features, though, you mentioned as a possible
> > negative of
> >> the
> >>>> DnD viewer was maintaining a client-side cache of objects...
> >>>
> >>> Indeed. Those caches can get out of date; at least: they do on the
> > Irish
> >>> system.
> >>>
> >>> The main workaround there is that, when the user searches for a
> > Customer,
> >>> then the client invalidates the client-side cache. It works well
> > enough
> >>> because the Customer is the usual start point for most business
> > processing.
> >>> But it's not generic solution, ie is a hack.
> >>
> >> The cache that Johan is using seems a little different. When a domain
> > object is
> >> returned from Isis, the graph is walked and more requests are made for
> >> properties, collections and descriptions. These all feed into a local
> >> representation of the state of the object. The window then displays the
> > object
> >> as it exists in the cache. On subsequent requests for the object, it is
> > ALWAYS
> >> refreshed from the server including all of its relations. So the cache
> is
> > really
> >> just used to ensure that all current views are in sync with each
> other. So
> > you
> >> change the name of a project and it's title is updated in the project
> > list
> >> view
> >> because they are both pointing at the same javascript object.
> >>
> >>> Also (and this is even more of a dirty secret), the validation
> methods
> >>> (hidden, disabled, validate) run client-side. Strictly speaking,
> they
> >>> should run server-side which would force the latest version of the
> > object
> >>> to be grabbed.
> >>
> >> You mention the object's version. Is there an optimistic locking
> > property
> >> exposed in RO? I searched the 1.0.0 spec and couldn't find one.
> >>
> >>> This second point isn't an issue with an RO-based client, because
> >>> validation must trigger a call to the REST API... there is no Java
> > code
> >>> client-side. Of course, with REST we can using HTTP caching to stop
> > the
> >>> server being flooded with calls.
> >>
> >> The object traversal definitely floods the server. What would the
> > cache-control
> >> be on an entity? Surely if we're asking we would want the latest
> > version?
> >> Related to the optimistic locking property above would we say "I want
> >> object
> >> OID:10. I currently have v123" and the server could determine that
> > v123 was
> >> the
> >> latest and send us a 304 (or do we keep track of when we requested the
> > object
> >> and send that as If-modified-since?) Would it be different for value
> > objects?
> >> And descriptions?
> >>
> >>>> The next step I suppose would be to tie in either the WebSockets
> > or
> >>>> EventSource API...
> >>>
> >>> Not necessarily... it's hard to say. I guess we're all going
> > to
> >> learn
> >>> where websockets (and related technologies) work well and where they
> >> don't
> >>> as HTML5 becomes commonplace.
> >>>
> >>> I do think it's worth taking this work forward and seeing what
> > happens.
> >>> But ultimately it will require server-side changes to fully
> > support... It
> >>> might end up being quite simple to implement, hard to say.
> >>>
> >>> It also occurs to me that a full WebSockets impl would mean that the
> > UI
> >>> would change dynamically in front of a "user's eyes".
> >> Although that sounds
> >>> cool, I could also see that it might be disconcerting in some
> > scenarios.
> >>> (You wouldn't want that to happen to a Java source file you were
> >> editing,
> >>> for example).
> >>
> >> There would be server-side changes and I don't know enough about how a
> >> property
> >> gets changed on an object to guess at the implementation. The two use
> cases
> > I
> >> can see for this are streaming data and update announcements. Streaming
> > data
> >> could be like a stock ticker or a continually updating chart. I've
> > played
> >> with
> >> that before. The update announcements would broadcast that an object
> has
> > changed
> >> server-side. It could include the full object or just the object id.
> The
> > viewer
> >> could then choose to update the object in place or set a stale flag.
> >>
> >> It could be strange to see my Project view change in front of me
> > (especially
> >> while I'm editing!) but there are cases where this could be very
> > useful:
> >>
> >> * Shipping: Live map of where your package is.
> >> * The energy trading example from the first Naked Objects book.
> >> * Collaborative drawing: Not really a business system but often used to
> > describe
> >> how rich we should strive to make our interfaces
> >>
> >> In the end, WebSockets is just a more server-friendly way to do what we
> > have
> >> been doing with polling.
> >>
> >> =========
> >> Disclaimer: I love Apache. I wouldn't be able to do my job without it.
> > All
> >> of the questions below are purely hypothetical and for clarification
> > purposes.
> >>
> >> One question came up while writing all this and thinking about what
> Mark
> > said.
> >> What we are really talking about here is a Restful Objects viewer and
> not
> > an
> >> Isis viewer. At least not in the same sense as the HTML, Scimpi, or
> Wicket
> >> viewers. That being the case, the jqMobile interface, Johan's project,
> > my
> >> project, etc. are not Isis-specific (unless they use something in
> > extensions.)
> >> Two questions:
> >>
> >> 1. Is this the correct forum to discuss these issues? I will
> definitely be
> > using
> >> Isis to generate my Restful Objects with the json-viewer but I don't
> > want to
> >> hijack the mailing list for these kinds of things unless it can
> benefit the
> > Isis
> >> community.
> >>
> >> 2. Hypothetically, I spend more time on my project and it turns out
> great
> > and
> >> everyone wants to use it :P. Would, or should, it live at Apache? I
> would
> >> definitely be willing to donate it. But how would it be packaged? It's
> > own
> >> viewer? That doesn't make sense because it needs the json-viewer to
> > operate.
> >> A Maven war overlay of the json-viewer or webpp artifacts? Maybe. What
> if
> > the
> >> .NET guys want it? I'm completely unfamiliar with NuGet and how it
> > manages
> >> packages but I'm guessing it doesn't interoperate with Maven.
> >>
> >> One scenario…
> >> I develop the code on GitHub under MIT license. Johan doesn't respond
> > and
> >> his
> >> code is abandoned. I like his work so I merge our codebases giving him
> >> attribution. The code is now "IP unclean." If I can get it
> > published
> >> to maven
> >> central I can create a maven war overlay of the Isis json-viewer. Isis
> > users
> >> can include this in their root project but it can't be a part of the
> >> quickstart
> >> archetype because of the IP issue. (Is that similar to the fate of the
> > Hibernate
> >> backend?) The project is RestfulObjects focused so it could also be
> shared
> > with
> >> the .NET community. I realize I am getting way ahead of myself but
> like I
> > said
> >> at the beginning of this email, I don't want to "poison" the
> >> project early.
> >>
> >> I worry alot about the tone of these messages. I can see how the above
> > might
> >> sound combative.
> >>
> >> "The computer can't tell you the emotional story.
> >> It can give you the exact mathematical design,
> >> but what's missing is the eyebrows."
> >> -- Frank Zappa
> >>
> >>
> >> Very much enjoying the discussion.
> >> --
> >> Adam Howard
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 8:59 AM, Dan Haywood
> >> <da...@haywood-associates.co.uk> wrote:
> >>> On 15 June 2012 04:06, Adam Howard <ho...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I tried it out [Johan's client] ...
> >>>> He already has many of the features I wanted to add to my little
> >> project.
> >>>> ...
> >>>>
> >>>> One of those features, though, you mentioned as a possible
> > negative of
> >> the
> >>>> DnD viewer was maintaining a client-side cache of objects. Johan
> > uses
> >> this
> >>>> so that the views can be direct projections of the local model.
> > You
> >> change
> >>>> a field in one view and all others views automatically update.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Indeed. Those caches can get out of date; at least: they do on the
> > Irish
> >>> system.
> >>>
> >>> The main workaround there is that, when the user searches for a
> > Customer,
> >>> then the client invalidates the client-side cache. It works well
> > enough
> >>> because the Customer is the usual start point for most business
> > processing.
> >>> But it's not generic solution, ie is a hack.
> >>>
> >>> Also (and this is even more of a dirty secret), the validation
> methods
> >>> (hidden, disabled, validate) run client-side. Strictly speaking,
> they
> >>> should run server-side which would force the latest version of the
> > object
> >>> to be grabbed.
> >>>
> >>> This second point isn't an issue with an RO-based client, because
> >>> validation must trigger a call to the REST API... there is no Java
> > code
> >>> client-side. Of course, with REST we can using HTTP caching to stop
> > the
> >>> server being flooded with calls.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> The next
> >>>> step I suppose would be to tie in either the WebSockets or
> > EventSource
> >> API
> >>>> to allow the server to broadcast object change events back to all
> >> connected
> >>>> viewers. Would you advise against this sort of approach?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Not necessarily... it's hard to say. I guess we're all going
> > to
> >> learn
> >>> where websockets (and related technologies) work well and where they
> >> don't
> >>> as HTML5 becomes commonplace.
> >>>
> >>> I do think it's worth taking this work forward and seeing what
> > happens.
> >>> But ultimately it will require server-side changes to fully
> > support... It
> >>> might end up being quite simple to implement, hard to say.
> >>>
> >>> It also occurs to me that a full WebSockets impl would mean that the
> > UI
> >>> would change dynamically in front of a "user's eyes".
> >> Although that sounds
> >>> cool, I could also see that it might be disconcerting in some
> > scenarios.
> >>> (You wouldn't want that to happen to a Java source file you were
> >> editing,
> >>> for example).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Or is the
> >>>> client-side cache you mention more an artifact of the remoting
> >> protocol?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> The bespoke remoting that we had (and have now thrown away) certainly
> >>> didn't help matters. But it was also complicated by the fact that
> > OIDs
> >>> (the serializable object identifier by which we identify every
> object,
> > eg
> >>> "customer|123") used to be mutable. This was because an
> > object
> >> would be
> >>> transient client-side, then get persisted (ie: users hits the
> >> "save"
> >>> button), then the object would be sent over the wire, persisted, and
> > its
> >>> OID would change. Figuring all this stuff out was complex.
> >>>
> >>> OIDs are now immutable, which basically means that we don't really
> >
> >> support
> >>> transient objects anymore. I can think of patterns that would allow
> > us to
> >>> simulate this, though.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Heroku, I just signed up for the account to post this demo. It
> >> seemed
> >>>> like the easiest and cheapest (free) way to post a simple java
> > webapp.
> >>>> Especially since I didn't require an RDBMS. My 24 hours of
> >> experience have
> >>>> been fine.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> OK, looking into it. I'm also looking at CloudBees and OpenShift,
> > cos
> >> I
> >>> want a (non-Apache) CI server for this new project that is kicking
> > off.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On the iPad, I thought this would be cool too and then started to
> > think
> >>>> about how dragging and right-clicking doesn't work. Then I
> > found
> >> jQuery UI
> >>>> Touch Punch [1] which maps the jQuery UI events to touch events:
> > click
> >>>> becomes tap, right-click becomes tap & hold, and they've
> > made
> >> dragging and
> >>>> dropping work as well. I'll definitely have to try it out.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> It's great how many of these UI frameworks are. Hopefully the
> > REST API
> >>> will allow for all sorts of interesting user interfaces going
> forward.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers
> >>> Dan
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Adam Howard
> >>>>
> >>>> [1] http://touchpunch.furf.com/
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 10:12 AM, Dan Haywood
> >>>> <da...@haywood-associates.co.uk>wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> > Hi Adam,
> >>>> > Welcome to Isis, and thanks very much for your interest and
> > the
> >> good work
> >>>> > you've already done so far!
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Since you've made a number of points, I've commented
> > on
> >> them inline....
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > On Thursday, 14 June 2012, Adam Howard wrote:
> >>>> >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > I started reading Dan's book last fall and made it
> > part
> >> way through the
> >>>> > > carserv example app using Isis 0.1.2-incubating. I used
> > the
> >> DnD viewer
> >>>> > > almost exclusively, enjoying how tangible the objects
> > became
> >> using the
> >>>> > > multi-window interface.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > About a month ago I came back to the book and decided to
> >
> >> start writing
> >>>> my
> >>>> > > own little app alongside carserv. I grabbed the latest
> > Isis
> >> quickstart
> >>>> > > archetype (0.2.0-incubating) and started coding.
> >> Surprisingly, I saw
> >>>> that
> >>>> > > the DnD viewer was no longer included as standard in the
> >
> >> archetype. I
> >>>> > used
> >>>> > > the HTML viewer for about a week but it just didn't
> > feel
> >> the same. With
> >>>> > the
> >>>> > > DnD viewer I could look at my object representations and
> > it
> >> would help
> >>>> > > drive my modeling. "Oh, I need a relationship here
> > so I
> >> can drop this
> >>>> > > object on that one."
> >>>> > >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Like you, I also have a soft spot for the DnD viewer, and Rob
> > does
> >> too of
> >>>> > course because it's his baby. It's also the viewer
> >> that's used on the
> >>>> big
> >>>> > system in Ireland, used by 2,500+ people on a day-to-day
> > basis.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > On the other hand, the DnD viewer, let's say, not the
> >> prettiest of UIs.
> >>>> > (For myself at least) I'm pretty sure lots of people
> > have
> >> seen it and
> >>>> got
> >>>> > turned off by Isis / the naked objects pattern....
> >>>> >
> >>>> > As you've probably realized, the DnD viewer code itself
> > has
> >> not been
> >>>> > deleted. However, we removed it from the archetype because:
> >>>> > * we wanted to try to include only the stuff that was
> >> "complete", and in
> >>>> > its current incarnation a few new features are only
> >> semi-implemented
> >>>> > * its status was becoming less clear with the move to remove
> > the
> >> remoting
> >>>> > stuff
> >>>> > * to figure out what it's positioning should be within
> > the
> >> context of the
> >>>> > other viewers.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Where I think we are now is that we see the DnD viewer as
> > being
> >>>> > resurrected, but positioned solely as a design tool for
> >> developers.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > At some point Rob needs to do some tidy up work to remove the
> >>>> > semi-implemented features and get it back to where it was
> >> (ideally: I'd
> >>>> > like it to look like NOF 3.0.3, with the collections on the
> > left).
> >> As
> >>>> and
> >>>> > when that's done, I'll add it back into the
> > archetype.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > In the meantime, you can of course create a Maven module and
> >> reference
> >>>> the
> >>>> > viewer; the module generated from the 0.1.2-incubating
> > archetype
> >> will
> >>>> > probably work just fine (save change the version of Isis
> >> referenced,
> >>>> > obviously).
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > This got me wondering. Could a browser-based
> > multi-window
> >> interface be
> >>>> > > built on top of the JSON viewer and a javascript ui
> > library?
> >> I looked
> >>>> at
> >>>> > > all the contenders (YUI, jQuery, MooTools, Backbone,
> > ExtJS)
> >> and finally
> >>>> > > settled on jQuery after seeing this blog post [1] and
> > looking
> >> at the
> >>>> > > jqMobile example.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Indeed. And in fact a chap called Johan Andries had the same
> > idea
> >> and
> >>>> > spent some time putting together an early JS application
> > against
> >> the
> >>>> > Restful interface using JQueryUI and Backbone. He's also
> >
> >> shared his
> >>>> code,
> >>>> > at [5].
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > I've been playing with it for the past couple weeks
> > and
> >> I'm at the
> >>>> point
> >>>> > > where I wanted to know if this is something the
> > community is
> >> interested
> >>>> > in.
> >>>> > > I know it's ANOTHER viewer and I'm making no
> > claims
> >> that it's ready (or
> >>>> > > will ever be ready) for anyone else to use. I'm
> > really
> >> asking if the
> >>>> > ideas
> >>>> > > embodied in the DnD viewer are still desired?
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Yes, I think they are. In fact, Johan's viewer also uses
> > the
> >> DnD as its
> >>>> > metaphor. I had a quick play with your app [4] (though not
> > for
> >> long)
> >>>> and I
> >>>> > think that Johan has gotten a little further with his
> > framework
> >> than you.
> >>>> > That said, he doesn't seem to have done any work on it
> > since
> >> Nov last.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > So, one option you might want to explore is to contact Johan
> > and
> >> either
> >>>> > join his project, or fork it and take it from there.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > For myself, I was thinking that a GUI based on ExtJS might do
> > well
> >> as a
> >>>> > sovereign style app... but I can't see myself starting on
> > that
> >> this year
> >>>> > (2012).
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > > The most important to me
> >>>> > > being multiple objects on a virtual desktop that you can
> >
> >> visually
> >>>> layout
> >>>> > to
> >>>> > > increase understanding.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Agreed. Also, with toolkits such as SenchaTouch, I think
> > there
> >> are
> >>>> > opportunities for very interactive UIs that can be deployed
> > on
> >> iPADs and
> >>>> > the like.
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > All of the latest developments I've seen, both in
> > Isis
> >> and
> >>>> > NakedObject.NET,
> >>>> > > have centered on single-object view web layouts. Was it
> >> discovered that
> >>>> > the
> >>>> > > desktop metaphor viewers were lacking for some users?
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > The next generation of the Irish government project is indeed
> >
> >> moving to
> >>>> > Naked Objects MVC. It's too early to say how that will
> > pan
> >> out.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > However, the issue with the DnD viewer is mostly its
> > architecture:
> >> the
> >>>> > client/server remoting protocol, and having to maintain
> >> client-side cache
> >>>> > of objects and managing transient/persistent objects and lazy
> >
> >> loading
> >>>> over
> >>>> > the wire. The Irish app which runs under this architecture
> > does
> >> work,
> >>>> but
> >>>> > the sordid little secret is that there are a number of hacks
> > under
> >> the
> >>>> > covers to get it to do so.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > But this is why the Restful interface (per the json-viewer)
> > is so
> >>>> > important, I think: it will enable different types of viewers
> > with
> >>>> whatever
> >>>> > UI paradigm fits, but on a solid, scalable, back-end
> > architecture
> >> .
> >>>> >
> >>>> > So... I would say, go for it and build a DnD (or whatever)
> > viewer,
> >> using
> >>>> > the restful API. There's no reason not to.
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > > The new web viewers
> >>>> > > are great but they don't give me the same sense of
> >> exploration as the
> >>>> > > original GUI. Maybe that exploration isn't needed
> > after
> >> the model
> >>>> > > solidifies and the app is being used.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Anyway, sorry for rambling.
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Not at all... very interested to hear your thoughts.
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > > I tried something new and posted my little app
> >>>> > > on Heroku. If I understand the service right you can
> > access
> >> the JSON
> >>>> > viewer
> >>>> > > [2], the HTML viewer [3] and my "windowed"
> > viewer
> >> [4] at the urls
> >>>> below.
> >>>> > It
> >>>> > > might take a few seconds to spool up. Credentials are
> >> sven/pass. Tested
> >>>> > in
> >>>> > > Chrome, FF, and Safari.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Heroku: that's on my todo list to look into. I might
> > pick
> >> your brains.
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Again it's nowhere near complete but you can execute
> >
> >> actions, view
> >>>> > objects
> >>>> > > and collections, create objects and modify properties
> >> (mostly.)
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > Thanks for creating a wonderful framework to build on.
> >>>> > >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Thanks for the kind words, looking forward to continuing the
> >>>> conversation!
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Cheers
> >>>> > Dan
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > > --
> >>>> > > Adam Howard
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > > [1]
> >>>> > >
> >>>> > >
> >>>> >
> >>>>
> >>
> >
> http://net.tutsplus.com/tutorials/javascript-ajax/creating-a-windows-like-interface-with-jquery-ui/
> >>>> > > [2] http://simple-dusk-6870.herokuapp.com
> >>>> > > [3] http://simple-dusk-6870.herokuapp.com/htmlviewer
> >>>> > > [4] http://simple-dusk-6870.herokuapp.com/services.html
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> > [5] http://code.google.com/p/restfulobjects-js/
> >>>> >
> >>>>
> >>
> >
>
Re: Legal concerns for a Javascript client to Isis' JSON (Rest)
viewer (was: Re: Introduction and another viewer)
Posted by Dan Haywood <da...@haywood-associates.co.uk>.
On 17 June 2012 18:31, Adam Howard <ho...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I did some googling and this [1] may be him [2]. I don't have a
> twitter account and I can't InMail on LinkedIn.
>
I've mailed him and pinged via LinkedIn, not yet heard back. I'll chase in
a day or two.
>
> One more legal question then I'll get back to work. What
> considerations come from including other javascript libraries. Two
> examples:
>
> jQuery UI Touch Punch [3] is dual licensed as MIT and GPLv2. Is it ok
> to include it as part of my distribution? I've added it to my example
> app and now I can drag and resize dialogs on the iPad. See screenshot
> [4] or live app [5].
>
I am sure this is fine; it may still require some sort of confirmation from
the authors that this is their code. Mentors?
>
> You mentioned ExtJS. That is licensed solely under GPLv3 but has open
> source license exceptions for non GPL projects including ASL.
I'd like to say yes, but it's an excellent question, and worth getting
clarification on (for other Apache projects as well as ourselves).
I've raised a ticket on LEGAL [1]. There's not always a very fast
turn-around, hence raising it right now while you are working on other
things.
Dan
[1] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-138
Re: Legal concerns for a Javascript client to Isis' JSON (Rest)
viewer (was: Re: Introduction and another viewer)
Posted by Dan Haywood <da...@haywood-associates.co.uk>.
On 17 June 2012 18:31, Adam Howard <ho...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I did some googling and this [1] may be him [2]. I don't have a
> twitter account and I can't InMail on LinkedIn.
>
I've mailed him and pinged via LinkedIn, not yet heard back. I'll chase in
a day or two.
>
> One more legal question then I'll get back to work. What
> considerations come from including other javascript libraries. Two
> examples:
>
> jQuery UI Touch Punch [3] is dual licensed as MIT and GPLv2. Is it ok
> to include it as part of my distribution? I've added it to my example
> app and now I can drag and resize dialogs on the iPad. See screenshot
> [4] or live app [5].
>
I am sure this is fine; it may still require some sort of confirmation from
the authors that this is their code. Mentors?
>
> You mentioned ExtJS. That is licensed solely under GPLv3 but has open
> source license exceptions for non GPL projects including ASL.
I'd like to say yes, but it's an excellent question, and worth getting
clarification on (for other Apache projects as well as ourselves).
I've raised a ticket on LEGAL [1]. There's not always a very fast
turn-around, hence raising it right now while you are working on other
things.
Dan
[1] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-138
Re: Legal concerns for a Javascript client to Isis' JSON (Rest)
viewer (was: Re: Introduction and another viewer)
Posted by Adam Howard <ho...@gmail.com>.
Replied inline.
On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 5:09 AM, Dan Haywood
<da...@haywood-associates.co.uk> wrote:
> I'll reach out to Johan myself, hopefully to get him re-enthused, but as a
> minimum to get such a declaration that Adam can use that work as a basis
> for a future Apache donation.
I did some googling and this [1] may be him [2]. I don't have a
twitter account and I can't InMail on LinkedIn.
> ~~~
> Whatever... all that's to come. I'll reach out to Johan, and if he
> responds (which I'm sure he will) then that'll ensure that your code isn't
> IP-poisoned from the outset.
One more legal question then I'll get back to work. What
considerations come from including other javascript libraries. Two
examples:
jQuery UI Touch Punch [3] is dual licensed as MIT and GPLv2. Is it ok
to include it as part of my distribution? I've added it to my example
app and now I can drag and resize dialogs on the iPad. See screenshot
[4] or live app [5].
You mentioned ExtJS. That is licensed solely under GPLv3 but has open
source license exceptions for non GPL projects including ASL. Could a
viewer based on ExtJS be hosted by Apache? What if the ExtJS files
were only included through a CDN and not checked in to source control?
Ok. Back to coding now.
--
Adam Howard
[1] http://twitter.com/#!/johan_andries
[2] http://www.linkedin.com/in/johanandries
[3] http://touchpunch.furf.com/
[4] http://db.tt/JDRLFUkh
[5] http://simple-dusk-6870.herokuapp.com/services.html
>
> On 16 June 2012 11:33, Mark Struberg <st...@yahoo.de> wrote:
>
>> Btw, I should have split one paragraph:
>>
>> > 2. Hypothetically, I spend more time on my project and it turns out
>> great and
>> > everyone wants to use it :P. Would, or should, it live at Apache? I would
>> > definitely be willing to donate it.
>>
>> That would be very cool, and yes (as stated in the paragraph above) I
>> think it would fit really well.
>>
>> All we would need for such a bigger contribution is to file an iCLA [1].
>>
>>
>> txs and LieGrue,
>> strub
>>
>> [1] http://www.apache.org/licenses/icla.txt
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: Mark Struberg <st...@yahoo.de>
>> > To: "isis-users@incubator.apache.org" <is...@incubator.apache.org>
>> > Cc:
>> > Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 12:05 PM
>> > Subject: Re: Introduction and another viewer
>> >
>> > Hi Adam!
>> >
>> > Really good questions and sorry that you tapped into the legal mine
>> field that
>> > early. I hope this doesn't distract you too much from your intended
>> hacking
>> > ;)
>> >
>> >
>> > Just to explain the rational behind this a bit further:
>> >
>> > _every_ OSS developer must be really carefully when it comes to legal
>> aspects
>> > nowadays (Goog vs Orcl anyone?)
>> > This is not folks at ASF being weirdos but we only like to protect our
>> > contributors (thus you and others) by making them aware. That's one of
>> the
>> > reasons for our VOTEs on releases, ip-clearance [1] etc. We even
>> maintain an own
>> > legal-discuss list where a few pro-bono lawyers, attorneys and even law
>> > professors also show up and help us resolving more difficult legal
>> questions
>> > (big thanks btw!).
>> >
>> >
>> > For the basics: an algorithm cannot be patented and also not being
>> > 'protected' via Intellectual Property rights (IP). But copying a bigger
>> > source 1:1 is problematic as it can lead to breaching IP.
>> > Thus taking the idea of this single loop of 4 lines and rewriting them
>> in your
>> > own code is absolutely no problem. Simple copying code is never a good
>> idea
>> > though - be it for only changing code style or reviewing the code that
>> way.
>> >
>> >
>> > *skipping the technical ISIS questions, Dan please take over ;) *
>> >
>> >
>> >> 1. Is this the correct forum to discuss these issues? I will
>> definitely be
>> > using
>> >> Isis to generate my Restful Objects with the json-viewer but I don't
>> > want to
>> >> hijack the mailing list for these kinds of things unless it can
>> benefit the
>> > Isis
>> >> community.
>> >
>> > It's perfectly fine to discuss it here on the list and even develop the
>> > viewer here. If this can be done in a 'portable', way we should take
>> > care to keep that part abstract and independent. But it's always a good
>> idea
>> > to have at least a known server part it interacts well with. If it
>> proved stable
>> > and universal, we can still split it out into an own project later on.
>> Once one
>> > becomes an ASF committer on one project it's really easy to 'extend'
>> > into other project communities as well ;)
>> >
>> >
>> >> 2. Hypothetically, I spend more time on my project and it turns out
>> great
>> > and
>> >> everyone wants to use it :P. Would, or should, it live at Apache? I
>> would
>> >> definitely be willing to donate it. But how would it be packaged? It's
>> > own
>> >> viewer? That doesn't make sense because it needs the json-viewer to
>> > operate.
>> >> A Maven war overlay of the json-viewer or webpp artifacts? Maybe. What
>> if
>> > the
>> >> .NET guys want it? I'm completely unfamiliar with NuGet and how it
>> > manages
>> >> packages but I'm guessing it doesn't interoperate with Maven.
>> >
>> > No clue about that right now. We would need to take a deep look at the
>> details.
>> > But I'm sure we can solve this!
>> >
>> >> I develop the code on GitHub under MIT license.
>> >> Johan doesn't respond and his code is abandoned.
>> >> I like his work so I merge our codebases giving him
>> >> attribution. The code is now "IP unclean.
>> >
>> > There is a very good summary and a license compat matrix here:
>> > http://www.apache.org/legal/3party.html
>> >
>> > MIT is perfectly fine to include in our work. Of course keep the author
>> > attribution.
>> > I'm not sure how big the parts are you like to 'copy' from him 1:1
>> > or if you/we more or less create own 'derivative' work by taking his
>> > code as base for _some_ features but changing/adopting/extending it
>> ourselfs.
>> > This is really often the case if you take code from someone else.
>> > We also might try to reach out as PMC, telling him what we like to do
>> and if he
>> > is cool with that.
>> > The worst thing which could happen is imo that we need to rewrite those
>> parts we
>> > didn't yet touch.
>> >
>> >
>> > LieGrue,
>> > strub
>> >
>> > [1] http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/index.html
>> > whoooops, I think we are still missing here ^^
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: Adam Howard <ho...@gmail.com>
>> >> To: isis-users@incubator.apache.org
>> >> Cc:
>> >> Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2012 5:06 AM
>> >> Subject: Re: Introduction and another viewer
>> >>
>> >> I'm including responses to both Mark and Dan here. I don't know if
>> > that
>> >> meets
>> >> list etiquette. Also should I be including full message history in
>> every
>> > reply?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 12:16 PM, Mark Struberg <st...@yahoo.de>
>> > wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> The point is that here at ASF we only take code if someone explicitly
>> >>> gives it to us.
>> >>> Of course not if those are only a few lines of code or a pretty
>> > straight
>> >>> forward basic task without much own work. But it's more complex
>> > and
>> >>> originary work then we just don't take it.
>> >>
>> >> So for example, I wanted a unique id for every window and field in my
>> ui. I
>> >> googled for javascript guid and found a 4 line function that generates
>> >> something "kind of like" a guid. Definitely random enough for my
>> > use.
>> >> Is that a
>> >> case where I would need to track down the author and ask if they will
>> > donate the
>> >> code to ASF. I can think of many levels of scenarios. Is there a
>> document
>> >> outlining this? I don't want to "poison" my project this
>> > early :)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 8:59 AM, Dan Haywood
>> >> <da...@haywood-associates.co.uk>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>> One of those features, though, you mentioned as a possible
>> > negative of
>> >> the
>> >>>> DnD viewer was maintaining a client-side cache of objects...
>> >>>
>> >>> Indeed. Those caches can get out of date; at least: they do on the
>> > Irish
>> >>> system.
>> >>>
>> >>> The main workaround there is that, when the user searches for a
>> > Customer,
>> >>> then the client invalidates the client-side cache. It works well
>> > enough
>> >>> because the Customer is the usual start point for most business
>> > processing.
>> >>> But it's not generic solution, ie is a hack.
>> >>
>> >> The cache that Johan is using seems a little different. When a domain
>> > object is
>> >> returned from Isis, the graph is walked and more requests are made for
>> >> properties, collections and descriptions. These all feed into a local
>> >> representation of the state of the object. The window then displays the
>> > object
>> >> as it exists in the cache. On subsequent requests for the object, it is
>> > ALWAYS
>> >> refreshed from the server including all of its relations. So the cache
>> is
>> > really
>> >> just used to ensure that all current views are in sync with each
>> other. So
>> > you
>> >> change the name of a project and it's title is updated in the project
>> > list
>> >> view
>> >> because they are both pointing at the same javascript object.
>> >>
>> >>> Also (and this is even more of a dirty secret), the validation
>> methods
>> >>> (hidden, disabled, validate) run client-side. Strictly speaking,
>> they
>> >>> should run server-side which would force the latest version of the
>> > object
>> >>> to be grabbed.
>> >>
>> >> You mention the object's version. Is there an optimistic locking
>> > property
>> >> exposed in RO? I searched the 1.0.0 spec and couldn't find one.
>> >>
>> >>> This second point isn't an issue with an RO-based client, because
>> >>> validation must trigger a call to the REST API... there is no Java
>> > code
>> >>> client-side. Of course, with REST we can using HTTP caching to stop
>> > the
>> >>> server being flooded with calls.
>> >>
>> >> The object traversal definitely floods the server. What would the
>> > cache-control
>> >> be on an entity? Surely if we're asking we would want the latest
>> > version?
>> >> Related to the optimistic locking property above would we say "I want
>> >> object
>> >> OID:10. I currently have v123" and the server could determine that
>> > v123 was
>> >> the
>> >> latest and send us a 304 (or do we keep track of when we requested the
>> > object
>> >> and send that as If-modified-since?) Would it be different for value
>> > objects?
>> >> And descriptions?
>> >>
>> >>>> The next step I suppose would be to tie in either the WebSockets
>> > or
>> >>>> EventSource API...
>> >>>
>> >>> Not necessarily... it's hard to say. I guess we're all going
>> > to
>> >> learn
>> >>> where websockets (and related technologies) work well and where they
>> >> don't
>> >>> as HTML5 becomes commonplace.
>> >>>
>> >>> I do think it's worth taking this work forward and seeing what
>> > happens.
>> >>> But ultimately it will require server-side changes to fully
>> > support... It
>> >>> might end up being quite simple to implement, hard to say.
>> >>>
>> >>> It also occurs to me that a full WebSockets impl would mean that the
>> > UI
>> >>> would change dynamically in front of a "user's eyes".
>> >> Although that sounds
>> >>> cool, I could also see that it might be disconcerting in some
>> > scenarios.
>> >>> (You wouldn't want that to happen to a Java source file you were
>> >> editing,
>> >>> for example).
>> >>
>> >> There would be server-side changes and I don't know enough about how a
>> >> property
>> >> gets changed on an object to guess at the implementation. The two use
>> cases
>> > I
>> >> can see for this are streaming data and update announcements. Streaming
>> > data
>> >> could be like a stock ticker or a continually updating chart. I've
>> > played
>> >> with
>> >> that before. The update announcements would broadcast that an object
>> has
>> > changed
>> >> server-side. It could include the full object or just the object id.
>> The
>> > viewer
>> >> could then choose to update the object in place or set a stale flag.
>> >>
>> >> It could be strange to see my Project view change in front of me
>> > (especially
>> >> while I'm editing!) but there are cases where this could be very
>> > useful:
>> >>
>> >> * Shipping: Live map of where your package is.
>> >> * The energy trading example from the first Naked Objects book.
>> >> * Collaborative drawing: Not really a business system but often used to
>> > describe
>> >> how rich we should strive to make our interfaces
>> >>
>> >> In the end, WebSockets is just a more server-friendly way to do what we
>> > have
>> >> been doing with polling.
>> >>
>> >> =========
>> >> Disclaimer: I love Apache. I wouldn't be able to do my job without it.
>> > All
>> >> of the questions below are purely hypothetical and for clarification
>> > purposes.
>> >>
>> >> One question came up while writing all this and thinking about what
>> Mark
>> > said.
>> >> What we are really talking about here is a Restful Objects viewer and
>> not
>> > an
>> >> Isis viewer. At least not in the same sense as the HTML, Scimpi, or
>> Wicket
>> >> viewers. That being the case, the jqMobile interface, Johan's project,
>> > my
>> >> project, etc. are not Isis-specific (unless they use something in
>> > extensions.)
>> >> Two questions:
>> >>
>> >> 1. Is this the correct forum to discuss these issues? I will
>> definitely be
>> > using
>> >> Isis to generate my Restful Objects with the json-viewer but I don't
>> > want to
>> >> hijack the mailing list for these kinds of things unless it can
>> benefit the
>> > Isis
>> >> community.
>> >>
>> >> 2. Hypothetically, I spend more time on my project and it turns out
>> great
>> > and
>> >> everyone wants to use it :P. Would, or should, it live at Apache? I
>> would
>> >> definitely be willing to donate it. But how would it be packaged? It's
>> > own
>> >> viewer? That doesn't make sense because it needs the json-viewer to
>> > operate.
>> >> A Maven war overlay of the json-viewer or webpp artifacts? Maybe. What
>> if
>> > the
>> >> .NET guys want it? I'm completely unfamiliar with NuGet and how it
>> > manages
>> >> packages but I'm guessing it doesn't interoperate with Maven.
>> >>
>> >> One scenario…
>> >> I develop the code on GitHub under MIT license. Johan doesn't respond
>> > and
>> >> his
>> >> code is abandoned. I like his work so I merge our codebases giving him
>> >> attribution. The code is now "IP unclean." If I can get it
>> > published
>> >> to maven
>> >> central I can create a maven war overlay of the Isis json-viewer. Isis
>> > users
>> >> can include this in their root project but it can't be a part of the
>> >> quickstart
>> >> archetype because of the IP issue. (Is that similar to the fate of the
>> > Hibernate
>> >> backend?) The project is RestfulObjects focused so it could also be
>> shared
>> > with
>> >> the .NET community. I realize I am getting way ahead of myself but
>> like I
>> > said
>> >> at the beginning of this email, I don't want to "poison" the
>> >> project early.
>> >>
>> >> I worry alot about the tone of these messages. I can see how the above
>> > might
>> >> sound combative.
>> >>
>> >> "The computer can't tell you the emotional story.
>> >> It can give you the exact mathematical design,
>> >> but what's missing is the eyebrows."
>> >> -- Frank Zappa
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Very much enjoying the discussion.
>> >> --
>> >> Adam Howard
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 8:59 AM, Dan Haywood
>> >> <da...@haywood-associates.co.uk> wrote:
>> >>> On 15 June 2012 04:06, Adam Howard <ho...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> I tried it out [Johan's client] ...
>> >>>> He already has many of the features I wanted to add to my little
>> >> project.
>> >>>> ...
>> >>>>
>> >>>> One of those features, though, you mentioned as a possible
>> > negative of
>> >> the
>> >>>> DnD viewer was maintaining a client-side cache of objects. Johan
>> > uses
>> >> this
>> >>>> so that the views can be direct projections of the local model.
>> > You
>> >> change
>> >>>> a field in one view and all others views automatically update.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Indeed. Those caches can get out of date; at least: they do on the
>> > Irish
>> >>> system.
>> >>>
>> >>> The main workaround there is that, when the user searches for a
>> > Customer,
>> >>> then the client invalidates the client-side cache. It works well
>> > enough
>> >>> because the Customer is the usual start point for most business
>> > processing.
>> >>> But it's not generic solution, ie is a hack.
>> >>>
>> >>> Also (and this is even more of a dirty secret), the validation
>> methods
>> >>> (hidden, disabled, validate) run client-side. Strictly speaking,
>> they
>> >>> should run server-side which would force the latest version of the
>> > object
>> >>> to be grabbed.
>> >>>
>> >>> This second point isn't an issue with an RO-based client, because
>> >>> validation must trigger a call to the REST API... there is no Java
>> > code
>> >>> client-side. Of course, with REST we can using HTTP caching to stop
>> > the
>> >>> server being flooded with calls.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> The next
>> >>>> step I suppose would be to tie in either the WebSockets or
>> > EventSource
>> >> API
>> >>>> to allow the server to broadcast object change events back to all
>> >> connected
>> >>>> viewers. Would you advise against this sort of approach?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Not necessarily... it's hard to say. I guess we're all going
>> > to
>> >> learn
>> >>> where websockets (and related technologies) work well and where they
>> >> don't
>> >>> as HTML5 becomes commonplace.
>> >>>
>> >>> I do think it's worth taking this work forward and seeing what
>> > happens.
>> >>> But ultimately it will require server-side changes to fully
>> > support... It
>> >>> might end up being quite simple to implement, hard to say.
>> >>>
>> >>> It also occurs to me that a full WebSockets impl would mean that the
>> > UI
>> >>> would change dynamically in front of a "user's eyes".
>> >> Although that sounds
>> >>> cool, I could also see that it might be disconcerting in some
>> > scenarios.
>> >>> (You wouldn't want that to happen to a Java source file you were
>> >> editing,
>> >>> for example).
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> Or is the
>> >>>> client-side cache you mention more an artifact of the remoting
>> >> protocol?
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> The bespoke remoting that we had (and have now thrown away) certainly
>> >>> didn't help matters. But it was also complicated by the fact that
>> > OIDs
>> >>> (the serializable object identifier by which we identify every
>> object,
>> > eg
>> >>> "customer|123") used to be mutable. This was because an
>> > object
>> >> would be
>> >>> transient client-side, then get persisted (ie: users hits the
>> >> "save"
>> >>> button), then the object would be sent over the wire, persisted, and
>> > its
>> >>> OID would change. Figuring all this stuff out was complex.
>> >>>
>> >>> OIDs are now immutable, which basically means that we don't really
>> >
>> >> support
>> >>> transient objects anymore. I can think of patterns that would allow
>> > us to
>> >>> simulate this, though.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Heroku, I just signed up for the account to post this demo. It
>> >> seemed
>> >>>> like the easiest and cheapest (free) way to post a simple java
>> > webapp.
>> >>>> Especially since I didn't require an RDBMS. My 24 hours of
>> >> experience have
>> >>>> been fine.
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> OK, looking into it. I'm also looking at CloudBees and OpenShift,
>> > cos
>> >> I
>> >>> want a (non-Apache) CI server for this new project that is kicking
>> > off.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On the iPad, I thought this would be cool too and then started to
>> > think
>> >>>> about how dragging and right-clicking doesn't work. Then I
>> > found
>> >> jQuery UI
>> >>>> Touch Punch [1] which maps the jQuery UI events to touch events:
>> > click
>> >>>> becomes tap, right-click becomes tap & hold, and they've
>> > made
>> >> dragging and
>> >>>> dropping work as well. I'll definitely have to try it out.
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> It's great how many of these UI frameworks are. Hopefully the
>> > REST API
>> >>> will allow for all sorts of interesting user interfaces going
>> forward.
>> >>>
>> >>> Cheers
>> >>> Dan
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> Adam Howard
>> >>>>
>> >>>> [1] http://touchpunch.furf.com/
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 10:12 AM, Dan Haywood
>> >>>> <da...@haywood-associates.co.uk>wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> > Hi Adam,
>> >>>> > Welcome to Isis, and thanks very much for your interest and
>> > the
>> >> good work
>> >>>> > you've already done so far!
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Since you've made a number of points, I've commented
>> > on
>> >> them inline....
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > On Thursday, 14 June 2012, Adam Howard wrote:
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> > > I started reading Dan's book last fall and made it
>> > part
>> >> way through the
>> >>>> > > carserv example app using Isis 0.1.2-incubating. I used
>> > the
>> >> DnD viewer
>> >>>> > > almost exclusively, enjoying how tangible the objects
>> > became
>> >> using the
>> >>>> > > multi-window interface.
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> > > About a month ago I came back to the book and decided to
>> >
>> >> start writing
>> >>>> my
>> >>>> > > own little app alongside carserv. I grabbed the latest
>> > Isis
>> >> quickstart
>> >>>> > > archetype (0.2.0-incubating) and started coding.
>> >> Surprisingly, I saw
>> >>>> that
>> >>>> > > the DnD viewer was no longer included as standard in the
>> >
>> >> archetype. I
>> >>>> > used
>> >>>> > > the HTML viewer for about a week but it just didn't
>> > feel
>> >> the same. With
>> >>>> > the
>> >>>> > > DnD viewer I could look at my object representations and
>> > it
>> >> would help
>> >>>> > > drive my modeling. "Oh, I need a relationship here
>> > so I
>> >> can drop this
>> >>>> > > object on that one."
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Like you, I also have a soft spot for the DnD viewer, and Rob
>> > does
>> >> too of
>> >>>> > course because it's his baby. It's also the viewer
>> >> that's used on the
>> >>>> big
>> >>>> > system in Ireland, used by 2,500+ people on a day-to-day
>> > basis.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > On the other hand, the DnD viewer, let's say, not the
>> >> prettiest of UIs.
>> >>>> > (For myself at least) I'm pretty sure lots of people
>> > have
>> >> seen it and
>> >>>> got
>> >>>> > turned off by Isis / the naked objects pattern....
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > As you've probably realized, the DnD viewer code itself
>> > has
>> >> not been
>> >>>> > deleted. However, we removed it from the archetype because:
>> >>>> > * we wanted to try to include only the stuff that was
>> >> "complete", and in
>> >>>> > its current incarnation a few new features are only
>> >> semi-implemented
>> >>>> > * its status was becoming less clear with the move to remove
>> > the
>> >> remoting
>> >>>> > stuff
>> >>>> > * to figure out what it's positioning should be within
>> > the
>> >> context of the
>> >>>> > other viewers.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Where I think we are now is that we see the DnD viewer as
>> > being
>> >>>> > resurrected, but positioned solely as a design tool for
>> >> developers.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > At some point Rob needs to do some tidy up work to remove the
>> >>>> > semi-implemented features and get it back to where it was
>> >> (ideally: I'd
>> >>>> > like it to look like NOF 3.0.3, with the collections on the
>> > left).
>> >> As
>> >>>> and
>> >>>> > when that's done, I'll add it back into the
>> > archetype.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > In the meantime, you can of course create a Maven module and
>> >> reference
>> >>>> the
>> >>>> > viewer; the module generated from the 0.1.2-incubating
>> > archetype
>> >> will
>> >>>> > probably work just fine (save change the version of Isis
>> >> referenced,
>> >>>> > obviously).
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> > > This got me wondering. Could a browser-based
>> > multi-window
>> >> interface be
>> >>>> > > built on top of the JSON viewer and a javascript ui
>> > library?
>> >> I looked
>> >>>> at
>> >>>> > > all the contenders (YUI, jQuery, MooTools, Backbone,
>> > ExtJS)
>> >> and finally
>> >>>> > > settled on jQuery after seeing this blog post [1] and
>> > looking
>> >> at the
>> >>>> > > jqMobile example.
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Indeed. And in fact a chap called Johan Andries had the same
>> > idea
>> >> and
>> >>>> > spent some time putting together an early JS application
>> > against
>> >> the
>> >>>> > Restful interface using JQueryUI and Backbone. He's also
>> >
>> >> shared his
>> >>>> code,
>> >>>> > at [5].
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> > > I've been playing with it for the past couple weeks
>> > and
>> >> I'm at the
>> >>>> point
>> >>>> > > where I wanted to know if this is something the
>> > community is
>> >> interested
>> >>>> > in.
>> >>>> > > I know it's ANOTHER viewer and I'm making no
>> > claims
>> >> that it's ready (or
>> >>>> > > will ever be ready) for anyone else to use. I'm
>> > really
>> >> asking if the
>> >>>> > ideas
>> >>>> > > embodied in the DnD viewer are still desired?
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Yes, I think they are. In fact, Johan's viewer also uses
>> > the
>> >> DnD as its
>> >>>> > metaphor. I had a quick play with your app [4] (though not
>> > for
>> >> long)
>> >>>> and I
>> >>>> > think that Johan has gotten a little further with his
>> > framework
>> >> than you.
>> >>>> > That said, he doesn't seem to have done any work on it
>> > since
>> >> Nov last.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > So, one option you might want to explore is to contact Johan
>> > and
>> >> either
>> >>>> > join his project, or fork it and take it from there.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > For myself, I was thinking that a GUI based on ExtJS might do
>> > well
>> >> as a
>> >>>> > sovereign style app... but I can't see myself starting on
>> > that
>> >> this year
>> >>>> > (2012).
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > > The most important to me
>> >>>> > > being multiple objects on a virtual desktop that you can
>> >
>> >> visually
>> >>>> layout
>> >>>> > to
>> >>>> > > increase understanding.
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Agreed. Also, with toolkits such as SenchaTouch, I think
>> > there
>> >> are
>> >>>> > opportunities for very interactive UIs that can be deployed
>> > on
>> >> iPADs and
>> >>>> > the like.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> > > All of the latest developments I've seen, both in
>> > Isis
>> >> and
>> >>>> > NakedObject.NET,
>> >>>> > > have centered on single-object view web layouts. Was it
>> >> discovered that
>> >>>> > the
>> >>>> > > desktop metaphor viewers were lacking for some users?
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > The next generation of the Irish government project is indeed
>> >
>> >> moving to
>> >>>> > Naked Objects MVC. It's too early to say how that will
>> > pan
>> >> out.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > However, the issue with the DnD viewer is mostly its
>> > architecture:
>> >> the
>> >>>> > client/server remoting protocol, and having to maintain
>> >> client-side cache
>> >>>> > of objects and managing transient/persistent objects and lazy
>> >
>> >> loading
>> >>>> over
>> >>>> > the wire. The Irish app which runs under this architecture
>> > does
>> >> work,
>> >>>> but
>> >>>> > the sordid little secret is that there are a number of hacks
>> > under
>> >> the
>> >>>> > covers to get it to do so.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > But this is why the Restful interface (per the json-viewer)
>> > is so
>> >>>> > important, I think: it will enable different types of viewers
>> > with
>> >>>> whatever
>> >>>> > UI paradigm fits, but on a solid, scalable, back-end
>> > architecture
>> >> .
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > So... I would say, go for it and build a DnD (or whatever)
>> > viewer,
>> >> using
>> >>>> > the restful API. There's no reason not to.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > > The new web viewers
>> >>>> > > are great but they don't give me the same sense of
>> >> exploration as the
>> >>>> > > original GUI. Maybe that exploration isn't needed
>> > after
>> >> the model
>> >>>> > > solidifies and the app is being used.
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> > > Anyway, sorry for rambling.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Not at all... very interested to hear your thoughts.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > > I tried something new and posted my little app
>> >>>> > > on Heroku. If I understand the service right you can
>> > access
>> >> the JSON
>> >>>> > viewer
>> >>>> > > [2], the HTML viewer [3] and my "windowed"
>> > viewer
>> >> [4] at the urls
>> >>>> below.
>> >>>> > It
>> >>>> > > might take a few seconds to spool up. Credentials are
>> >> sven/pass. Tested
>> >>>> > in
>> >>>> > > Chrome, FF, and Safari.
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Heroku: that's on my todo list to look into. I might
>> > pick
>> >> your brains.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> > > Again it's nowhere near complete but you can execute
>> >
>> >> actions, view
>> >>>> > objects
>> >>>> > > and collections, create objects and modify properties
>> >> (mostly.)
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> > > Thanks for creating a wonderful framework to build on.
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Thanks for the kind words, looking forward to continuing the
>> >>>> conversation!
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Cheers
>> >>>> > Dan
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > > --
>> >>>> > > Adam Howard
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> > > [1]
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> > >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>>
>> >>
>> >
>> http://net.tutsplus.com/tutorials/javascript-ajax/creating-a-windows-like-interface-with-jquery-ui/
>> >>>> > > [2] http://simple-dusk-6870.herokuapp.com
>> >>>> > > [3] http://simple-dusk-6870.herokuapp.com/htmlviewer
>> >>>> > > [4] http://simple-dusk-6870.herokuapp.com/services.html
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > [5] http://code.google.com/p/restfulobjects-js/
>> >>>> >
>> >>>>
>> >>
>> >
>>