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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> on 2010/11/26 19:48:09 UTC
Clarification about SGA versus CCLA
I can't find anything in [1] that states any conditions in which a
CCLA won't do and an SGA is required instead.
The Jena podling has asked me. Their situation is that an HP copyright
is thought to cover all the 'corporate' code, and they wonder if there
is any reason for them to chase an SGA on top of the CCLA that they
will need anyhow.
1: http://incubator.apache.org/guides/mentor.html#initial-ip-clearance
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Re: Clarification about SGA versus CCLA
Posted by Craig L Russell <cr...@oracle.com>.
On Nov 28, 2010, at 4:26 AM, Leo Simons wrote:
> Hey folks,
>
> On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 4:34 AM, Craig L Russell
> <cr...@oracle.com> wrote:
>> I think of a CCLA as a combination of an SGA to cover the software
>> grant
>> plus an acknowledgement that people in the company are going to
>> work on
>> Apache projects, whether on their own time or company time.
>>
>> So, if a CCLA is filed naming the software, a separate SGA is *not*
>> necessary.
>
> I always worry when we short-circuit the details like this: the
> opportunity for misunderstandings is there :)
>
> If and only if you fill out schedule B of a CCLA, then the CCLA also
> is a software grant as well as an agreement for ongoing contributions.
This is true, and perhaps not obvious if you don't actually read the
documents... ;-)
Craig
>
> Corollary - if as part of incubation a company sends in a CCLA
> *without* actually filling out schedule B, then importing a large body
> of existing code on which that company claims rights could be a bad
> idea.
>
> I don't think we should spend too much time over-documenting how to
> actually use these documents -- in the end the documents themselves
> are pretty clear.
>
>
> cheerio!
>
>
> Leo
>
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Craig L Russell
Architect, Oracle
http://db.apache.org/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
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Re: Clarification about SGA versus CCLA
Posted by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>.
Hey folks,
On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 4:34 AM, Craig L Russell
<cr...@oracle.com> wrote:
> I think of a CCLA as a combination of an SGA to cover the software grant
> plus an acknowledgement that people in the company are going to work on
> Apache projects, whether on their own time or company time.
>
> So, if a CCLA is filed naming the software, a separate SGA is *not*
> necessary.
I always worry when we short-circuit the details like this: the
opportunity for misunderstandings is there :)
If and only if you fill out schedule B of a CCLA, then the CCLA also
is a software grant as well as an agreement for ongoing contributions.
Corollary - if as part of incubation a company sends in a CCLA
*without* actually filling out schedule B, then importing a large body
of existing code on which that company claims rights could be a bad
idea.
I don't think we should spend too much time over-documenting how to
actually use these documents -- in the end the documents themselves
are pretty clear.
cheerio!
Leo
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Re: Clarification about SGA versus CCLA
Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
I made an edit to the incubator site. What do you think of it?
On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 8:48 PM, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
>> Would you recommend that I edit the mentor page on the site with this
>> clarification, or should we wait for more polyphony?
>
> If you really feel that there needs to be a clarification, it should probably go as a patch to the Apache site (specifically, http://www.apache.org/licenses/), where it can inform everyone.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
>
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Re: Clarification about SGA versus CCLA
Posted by Craig L Russell <cr...@oracle.com>.
Hi Benson,
I have no problem with your clarifying the page.
Regards,
Craig
On Nov 27, 2010, at 4:35 AM, Benson Margulies wrote:
> Craig,
>
> Would you recommend that I edit the mentor page on the site with this
> clarification, or should we wait for more polyphony?
>
> Thanks,
> benson
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 11:34 PM, Craig L Russell
> <cr...@oracle.com>wrote:
>
>> Hi Benson,
>>
>> I think of a CCLA as a combination of an SGA to cover the software
>> grant
>> plus an acknowledgement that people in the company are going to
>> work on
>> Apache projects, whether on their own time or company time.
>>
>> So, if a CCLA is filed naming the software, a separate SGA is *not*
>> necessary.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>> On Nov 26, 2010, at 10:48 AM, Benson Margulies wrote:
>>
>> I can't find anything in [1] that states any conditions in which a
>>> CCLA won't do and an SGA is required instead.
>>>
>>> The Jena podling has asked me. Their situation is that an HP
>>> copyright
>>> is thought to cover all the 'corporate' code, and they wonder if
>>> there
>>> is any reason for them to chase an SGA on top of the CCLA that they
>>> will need anyhow.
>>>
>>> 1: http://incubator.apache.org/guides/mentor.html#initial-ip-clearance
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>> Craig L Russell
>> Secretary, Apache Software Foundation
>> Chair, OpenJPA PMC
>> clr@apache.org http://db.apache.org/jdo
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
Craig L Russell
Architect, Oracle
http://db.apache.org/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
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Re: Clarification about SGA versus CCLA
Posted by Craig L Russell <cr...@oracle.com>.
If the code was developed in part by HP employees "on the clock" then
a CCLA or SGA must be obtained from HP.
If the code was developed in part by others, then those other persons
need to sign a SGA covering their contributions.
All the current developers need to sign an ICLA.
If any of the current developers work for HP, then a CCLA from HP
naming these developers would be a good idea as well.
Craig
On Nov 27, 2010, at 12:08 PM, Benson Margulies wrote:
> Well, this is going to depend on how the copyrights work, I guess. If
> it's clear that HP owns the copyright (all the HP people were working
> for hire), then a CCLA from HP will cover it. However, IANTL.
>
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Craig L Russell
Architect, Oracle
http://db.apache.org/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
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Re: Clarification about SGA versus CCLA
Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
Well, this is going to depend on how the copyrights work, I guess. If
it's clear that HP owns the copyright (all the HP people were working
for hire), then a CCLA from HP will cover it. However, IANTL.
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Re: Clarification about SGA versus CCLA
Posted by Ian Dickinson <ia...@epimorphics.com>.
On 27/11/10 13:34, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> I tend to agree with Craig in this particular case, as HP owns the
> code to Jena and it's HP employes, covered by a CCLA, who are going to
> commit it.
I dont' think this makes a material difference to this discussion, but
for clarity the committers are all *former* HP employees. The
discontinuation of HP's semantic web research programme provided much of
the motivation for migrating the copyright, and ongoing development, of
Jena to a non-HP body.
Ian
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Re: Clarification about SGA versus CCLA
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 1:35 PM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Craig,
>
> Would you recommend that I edit the mentor page on the site with this
> clarification, or should we wait for more polyphony?
I tend to agree with Craig in this particular case, as HP owns the
code to Jena and it's HP employes, covered by a CCLA, who are going to
commit it.
In the general cases, incoming codebases are often collective works,
so I wouldn't say "a grant is not needed if committers are covered by
a CCLA". Best is probably to discuss here and/or on legal-discuss for
cases where people are not sure if a grant is needed.
-Bertrand
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RE: Clarification about SGA versus CCLA
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> Would you recommend that I edit the mentor page on the site with this
> clarification, or should we wait for more polyphony?
If you really feel that there needs to be a clarification, it should probably go as a patch to the Apache site (specifically, http://www.apache.org/licenses/), where it can inform everyone.
--- Noel
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Re: Clarification about SGA versus CCLA
Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
Craig,
Would you recommend that I edit the mentor page on the site with this
clarification, or should we wait for more polyphony?
Thanks,
benson
On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 11:34 PM, Craig L Russell
<cr...@oracle.com>wrote:
> Hi Benson,
>
> I think of a CCLA as a combination of an SGA to cover the software grant
> plus an acknowledgement that people in the company are going to work on
> Apache projects, whether on their own time or company time.
>
> So, if a CCLA is filed naming the software, a separate SGA is *not*
> necessary.
>
> Craig
>
>
> On Nov 26, 2010, at 10:48 AM, Benson Margulies wrote:
>
> I can't find anything in [1] that states any conditions in which a
>> CCLA won't do and an SGA is required instead.
>>
>> The Jena podling has asked me. Their situation is that an HP copyright
>> is thought to cover all the 'corporate' code, and they wonder if there
>> is any reason for them to chase an SGA on top of the CCLA that they
>> will need anyhow.
>>
>> 1: http://incubator.apache.org/guides/mentor.html#initial-ip-clearance
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
> Craig L Russell
> Secretary, Apache Software Foundation
> Chair, OpenJPA PMC
> clr@apache.org http://db.apache.org/jdo
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: Clarification about SGA versus CCLA
Posted by Craig L Russell <cr...@oracle.com>.
Hi Benson,
I think of a CCLA as a combination of an SGA to cover the software
grant plus an acknowledgement that people in the company are going to
work on Apache projects, whether on their own time or company time.
So, if a CCLA is filed naming the software, a separate SGA is *not*
necessary.
Craig
On Nov 26, 2010, at 10:48 AM, Benson Margulies wrote:
> I can't find anything in [1] that states any conditions in which a
> CCLA won't do and an SGA is required instead.
>
> The Jena podling has asked me. Their situation is that an HP copyright
> is thought to cover all the 'corporate' code, and they wonder if there
> is any reason for them to chase an SGA on top of the CCLA that they
> will need anyhow.
>
> 1: http://incubator.apache.org/guides/mentor.html#initial-ip-clearance
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
Craig L Russell
Secretary, Apache Software Foundation
Chair, OpenJPA PMC
clr@apache.org http://db.apache.org/jdo
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Re: Clarification about SGA versus CCLA
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Sat, Nov 27, 2010 at 2:48 AM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I can't find anything in [1] that states any conditions in which a
> CCLA won't do and an SGA is required instead.
CCLA has been seen as required for individuals, working at the
company, to protect them from the company coming after them saying
"Hey, what have you been doing?".
Software Grants are for the Foundation, where the Copyright owner
gives Apache a license to evolve the software further, a kind of
"check mark in time" where there is a 'fork' (with or without the
original discontinued) if you like. This is especially important if
the incoming software is not already under the Apache license. Even
for BSD style, the company could theoretically have patent claims on
the codebase, and decide to chase after later. The SGA will explicitly
prevent that.
Something like that....
> The Jena podling has asked me. Their situation is that an HP copyright
> is thought to cover all the 'corporate' code, and they wonder if there
> is any reason for them to chase an SGA on top of the CCLA that they
> will need anyhow.
>
> 1: http://incubator.apache.org/guides/mentor.html#initial-ip-clearance
>
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>
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