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Posted to server-dev@james.apache.org by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org> on 2002/11/22 00:34:41 UTC
Forrest-made James test site - sneak preview
As promised, I've set up a Forrestized version of the James website.
The original XML is not yet 100% validating, so there are still things
to tweak, but it's basically there.
Enjoy!
http://cvs.apache.org/~nicolaken/james/
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
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Re: Forrest-made James test site - sneak preview
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Danny Angus wrote:
> I agree with some of the visual issues Noel has, but generally I like it.
> I guess it depends how easy it is to maintain..
>
> the Great Joy of the current system is that its a simple XSLT transformation we have one XSL stylesheet and a single ant-task to create the html from the xml.
With current Forrest you will have to install Forrest, and then call it
from commandline or from the ant build hooks that Forrest provides.
Therre is no maintainance, just make the docs, call forrest, and see the
result.
But you also have doc validation (currently they really suck ;-), auto
PDFs, and you can do "forrest run", point the browser to
http://localhost:8888/ and see changes to the pages realtime through an
embedded webserver.
And in the near future automatic site updates, complete javadoc
integration, pregenerated content mounting, etc etc etc.
I have fowarded the visual issues to the Forrest list, feel free anyone
to do mockups of a better layout and send them to us.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
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RE: Forrest-made James test site - sneak preview
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
I agree with some of the visual issues Noel has, but generally I like it.
I guess it depends how easy it is to maintain..
the Great Joy of the current system is that its a simple XSLT transformation we have one XSL stylesheet and a single ant-task to create the html from the xml.
d.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nicola Ken Barozzi [mailto:nicolaken@apache.org]
> Sent: 22 November 2002 09:18
> To: James Developers List
> Subject: Re: Forrest-made James test site - sneak preview
>
>
>
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > Nicola,
> >
> > What options exist to make it look more visually appealing?
>
> Make a skin for it :-)
>
> > Maybe it is
> > just me, but when I compare the Forrest-made test site to
> Danny's Maven-made
> > test site at http://jakarta.apache.org/~danny/, I prefer the look of the
> > latter.
> >
> > Specifics:
> >
> > - I prefer the smaller font size
> > - I prefer the narrower menu, leaving
> > a wider main area, and less scrolling
>
> Yes, this is not nice now.
>
> > - I prefer having section headings
> > - The intra-page section anchors are nice,
> > but not at the expense of everything else.
> >
> > YMMV, but those are my immediate visual responses. And I am
> assuming that
> > all of that is tunable.
>
> It is :-)
>
> > Please compare the two sites, and let me know what
> > you think. :-)
>
> Actually, it's really difficult for me to see which is best, since both
> are nice skins and have a very different "taste". Forrest skin is more
> "book"-like.
>
> Forrest is easily skinnable, so you all can decide if you want the
> Tigris skin, the Forrest one, a mix of the two or something elso.
> For example, look at the Avalon site http://jakarta.apache.org/avalon/
> (link put for easy jumping) as an example of a Forrest skin similar to
> the tigris one but not quite.
>
> Let's see what other think and what they prefer. If you change the page
> HTML of the Forrest one, for example, to suit better your taste, and
> other agree on it, I would be happy to port it in a skin for you.
>
> Look for example at the new Krysalis skin example
> http://www.krysalis.org/testdir/index.html to see an adaption of the
> Forrest skin.
>
>
> > --- Noel
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Nicola Ken Barozzi [mailto:nicolaken@apache.org]
> > Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 18:35
> > To: James Developers List
> > Subject: Forrest-made James test site - sneak preview
> >
> >
> >
> > As promised, I've set up a Forrestized version of the James website.
> > The original XML is not yet 100% validating, so there are still things
> > to tweak, but it's basically there.
> >
> > Enjoy!
> >
> > http://cvs.apache.org/~nicolaken/james/
> >
>
> --
> Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
> - verba volant, scripta manent -
> (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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Re: Forrest-made James test site - sneak preview
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Nicola,
>
> What options exist to make it look more visually appealing?
Make a skin for it :-)
> Maybe it is
> just me, but when I compare the Forrest-made test site to Danny's Maven-made
> test site at http://jakarta.apache.org/~danny/, I prefer the look of the
> latter.
>
> Specifics:
>
> - I prefer the smaller font size
> - I prefer the narrower menu, leaving
> a wider main area, and less scrolling
Yes, this is not nice now.
> - I prefer having section headings
> - The intra-page section anchors are nice,
> but not at the expense of everything else.
>
> YMMV, but those are my immediate visual responses. And I am assuming that
> all of that is tunable.
It is :-)
> Please compare the two sites, and let me know what
> you think. :-)
Actually, it's really difficult for me to see which is best, since both
are nice skins and have a very different "taste". Forrest skin is more
"book"-like.
Forrest is easily skinnable, so you all can decide if you want the
Tigris skin, the Forrest one, a mix of the two or something elso.
For example, look at the Avalon site http://jakarta.apache.org/avalon/
(link put for easy jumping) as an example of a Forrest skin similar to
the tigris one but not quite.
Let's see what other think and what they prefer. If you change the page
HTML of the Forrest one, for example, to suit better your taste, and
other agree on it, I would be happy to port it in a skin for you.
Look for example at the new Krysalis skin example
http://www.krysalis.org/testdir/index.html to see an adaption of the
Forrest skin.
> --- Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nicola Ken Barozzi [mailto:nicolaken@apache.org]
> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 18:35
> To: James Developers List
> Subject: Forrest-made James test site - sneak preview
>
>
>
> As promised, I've set up a Forrestized version of the James website.
> The original XML is not yet 100% validating, so there are still things
> to tweak, but it's basically there.
>
> Enjoy!
>
> http://cvs.apache.org/~nicolaken/james/
>
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Forrest-made James test site - sneak preview
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> - I prefer the left flush menu area from http://www.apache.org/~danny/
>
>>Hmmm, given that it has a 3dish look it doesn't play well with the rest
>>of the skin... why do you prefer it? Maybe because it's long till the
>>end of the page, or because it doesn't have a space on its left?
>
>
> Because the "Maven skin" doesn't have space on the left,
ok
> and because I don't
> actually find the 3-D look from the beta3 skin all that 3-D, or appealing in
> the current incarnation.
Ehm, the 3d-ish look is about the Maven skin. What I meant is that the
3d-ish Maven skin left navigation is not suited for the flat look of the
krysalis skin.
>>;-) I wanted to keep the skin more visually lightweight; I'll fix up
>>something with more solid looking table headers.
>
> Sorry ... (a) I like the current headers, (b) I think we should be
> relatively consistent with the Apache look.
The Apache look... that's what we are redefining.
The Forrest look will be the Apache look on many projects, and hopefully
on all.
>>Rounded corners are there now http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/beta3/
>
> Not from where I'm sitting (IE 6.0.2800.1106.etc). Rounded corners on the
> other skins are much more prominent, e.g., http://xml.apache.org/forrest/.
> I see only one tab (Home) rounded, only a little, and only when it is the
> currently selected tab.
With IE6 I see all of them rounded, but yes, it's not much, and yes,
there are download problems (on sf) that can have made your browser miss
the CSS-defined rounded corners.
> Personally, I kind of liked the old menus from xml.apache.org, and I like
> the Forrest menu the least.
It's usual that when one gets accustomed to a L&F it seems the best in
the world. Personally I hated the Maven-tigris skin till I used it some
time.
I'll make tweaks as per your suggestions.
If you make a mockup of the changes you would like to see even with a
paint program, it would help, but it's fine anyway.
Thanks for the feedback!
> --- Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nicola Ken Barozzi [mailto:nicolaken@apache.org]
> Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 3:09
> To: James Developers List
> Subject: Re: Forrest-made James test site - sneak preview
>
>
>
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
>>Nicola,
>>
>>Thanks for your changes. Here are some additional specifics for your
>>consideration:
>
>
> good :-)
>
>
>> - I prefer the left flush menu area from http://www.apache.org/~danny/
>
>
> Hmmm, given that it has a 3dish look it doesn't play well with the rest
> of the skin... why do you prefer it? Maybe because it's long till the
> end of the page, or because it doesn't have a space on its left?
>
>
>> - I like the indented menu layout from
>>http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/beta3/
>
>
> Ok.
>
>
>> - I still prefer the section headings from http://www.apache.org/~danny/
>
>
> ;-) I wanted to keep the skin more visually lightweight; I'll fix up
> something with more solid looking table headers.
>
>
>> - I'm ambivalent about the "tabs", but if they are going to be there, I'd
>>prefer to see them look more like tabs (overlapped appearance and rounded
>>corners).
>
>
> Rounded corners are there now http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/beta3/
> As for overlapping, I think it's more a hastle to do than the effect for
> now.
>
>
>> - I like a > b > c nav in http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/beta3/
>
>
> Cool.
>
>
>>We can talk about colors after you look these others over. :-)
>
>
> Yup, exactly.
>
>
>>What is the current status of proposing a site-wide look? The look you
>
> have
>
>>in Krysalis is rather different from the basic Apache/Jakarta look, or the
>>similar look used on the current Avalon site.
>
>
> Well, the krysalis look is taken from the Forrest look
> http://xml.apache.org/forrest/ If you look at the two they are
> basically identical except for the font sizes and headings.
>
> The krysalis skin is a tentative to make the forrest skin better, and
> most of the changes will reflect to the forrest skin, thus impacting on
> incubator.apache.org, xml.apache.org and commons.apache.org.
>
> We are making a CSS-only version of it, and probably that will have a
> wider adoption still.
>
>
>> --- Noel
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Nicola Ken Barozzi [mailto:nicolaken@apache.org]
>>Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 4:41
>>To: James Developers List
>>Subject: Re: Forrest-made James test site - sneak preview
>>
>>Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Nicola,
>>>
>>>What options exist to make it look more visually appealing? Maybe it is
>>>just me, but when I compare the Forrest-made test site to Danny's
>>
>>Maven-made
>>
>>
>>>test site at http://jakarta.apache.org/~danny/, I prefer the look of the
>>>latter.
>>>
>>>Specifics:
>>>
>>> - I prefer the smaller font size
>>> - I prefer the narrower menu, leaving
>>> a wider main area, and less scrolling
>>> - I prefer having section headings
>>> - The intra-page section anchors are nice,
>>> but not at the expense of everything else.
>>>
>>>YMMV, but those are my immediate visual responses. And I am assuming that
>>>all of that is tunable. Please compare the two sites, and let me know
>>
>>what
>>
>>
>>>you think. :-)
>>
>>
>>I think you have good points.
>>
>>Actually, based on feedback from you guys and others, I've reworked the
>>forrest skin to match better your visual expectations.
>>
>>Take a look here http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/beta3/ and see if
>>it's better. This skin could also be a visual reference for the new
>>forrest skin we're doing in pure CSS or used as such with color scheme
>>modifications.
>>
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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RE: Forrest-made James test site - sneak preview
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> > - I prefer the left flush menu area from http://www.apache.org/~danny/
> Hmmm, given that it has a 3dish look it doesn't play well with the rest
> of the skin... why do you prefer it? Maybe because it's long till the
> end of the page, or because it doesn't have a space on its left?
Because the "Maven skin" doesn't have space on the left, and because I don't
actually find the 3-D look from the beta3 skin all that 3-D, or appealing in
the current incarnation.
> ;-) I wanted to keep the skin more visually lightweight; I'll fix up
> something with more solid looking table headers.
Sorry ... (a) I like the current headers, (b) I think we should be
relatively consistent with the Apache look.
> Rounded corners are there now http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/beta3/
Not from where I'm sitting (IE 6.0.2800.1106.etc). Rounded corners on the
other skins are much more prominent, e.g., http://xml.apache.org/forrest/.
I see only one tab (Home) rounded, only a little, and only when it is the
currently selected tab.
Personally, I kind of liked the old menus from xml.apache.org, and I like
the Forrest menu the least.
--- Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: Nicola Ken Barozzi [mailto:nicolaken@apache.org]
Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 3:09
To: James Developers List
Subject: Re: Forrest-made James test site - sneak preview
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Nicola,
>
> Thanks for your changes. Here are some additional specifics for your
> consideration:
good :-)
> - I prefer the left flush menu area from http://www.apache.org/~danny/
Hmmm, given that it has a 3dish look it doesn't play well with the rest
of the skin... why do you prefer it? Maybe because it's long till the
end of the page, or because it doesn't have a space on its left?
> - I like the indented menu layout from
> http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/beta3/
Ok.
> - I still prefer the section headings from http://www.apache.org/~danny/
;-) I wanted to keep the skin more visually lightweight; I'll fix up
something with more solid looking table headers.
> - I'm ambivalent about the "tabs", but if they are going to be there, I'd
> prefer to see them look more like tabs (overlapped appearance and rounded
> corners).
Rounded corners are there now http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/beta3/
As for overlapping, I think it's more a hastle to do than the effect for
now.
> - I like a > b > c nav in http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/beta3/
Cool.
> We can talk about colors after you look these others over. :-)
Yup, exactly.
> What is the current status of proposing a site-wide look? The look you
have
> in Krysalis is rather different from the basic Apache/Jakarta look, or the
> similar look used on the current Avalon site.
Well, the krysalis look is taken from the Forrest look
http://xml.apache.org/forrest/ If you look at the two they are
basically identical except for the font sizes and headings.
The krysalis skin is a tentative to make the forrest skin better, and
most of the changes will reflect to the forrest skin, thus impacting on
incubator.apache.org, xml.apache.org and commons.apache.org.
We are making a CSS-only version of it, and probably that will have a
wider adoption still.
> --- Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nicola Ken Barozzi [mailto:nicolaken@apache.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 4:41
> To: James Developers List
> Subject: Re: Forrest-made James test site - sneak preview
>
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
>>Nicola,
>>
>>What options exist to make it look more visually appealing? Maybe it is
>>just me, but when I compare the Forrest-made test site to Danny's
>
> Maven-made
>
>>test site at http://jakarta.apache.org/~danny/, I prefer the look of the
>>latter.
>>
>>Specifics:
>>
>> - I prefer the smaller font size
>> - I prefer the narrower menu, leaving
>> a wider main area, and less scrolling
>> - I prefer having section headings
>> - The intra-page section anchors are nice,
>> but not at the expense of everything else.
>>
>>YMMV, but those are my immediate visual responses. And I am assuming that
>>all of that is tunable. Please compare the two sites, and let me know
>
> what
>
>>you think. :-)
>
>
> I think you have good points.
>
> Actually, based on feedback from you guys and others, I've reworked the
> forrest skin to match better your visual expectations.
>
> Take a look here http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/beta3/ and see if
> it's better. This skin could also be a visual reference for the new
> forrest skin we're doing in pure CSS or used as such with color scheme
> modifications.
>
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Forrest-made James test site - sneak preview
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Nicola,
>
> Thanks for your changes. Here are some additional specifics for your
> consideration:
good :-)
> - I prefer the left flush menu area from http://www.apache.org/~danny/
Hmmm, given that it has a 3dish look it doesn't play well with the rest
of the skin... why do you prefer it? Maybe because it's long till the
end of the page, or because it doesn't have a space on its left?
> - I like the indented menu layout from
> http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/beta3/
Ok.
> - I still prefer the section headings from http://www.apache.org/~danny/
;-) I wanted to keep the skin more visually lightweight; I'll fix up
something with more solid looking table headers.
> - I'm ambivalent about the "tabs", but if they are going to be there, I'd
> prefer to see them look more like tabs (overlapped appearance and rounded
> corners).
Rounded corners are there now http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/beta3/
As for overlapping, I think it's more a hastle to do than the effect for
now.
> - I like a > b > c nav in http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/beta3/
Cool.
> We can talk about colors after you look these others over. :-)
Yup, exactly.
> What is the current status of proposing a site-wide look? The look you have
> in Krysalis is rather different from the basic Apache/Jakarta look, or the
> similar look used on the current Avalon site.
Well, the krysalis look is taken from the Forrest look
http://xml.apache.org/forrest/ If you look at the two they are
basically identical except for the font sizes and headings.
The krysalis skin is a tentative to make the forrest skin better, and
most of the changes will reflect to the forrest skin, thus impacting on
incubator.apache.org, xml.apache.org and commons.apache.org.
We are making a CSS-only version of it, and probably that will have a
wider adoption still.
> --- Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nicola Ken Barozzi [mailto:nicolaken@apache.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 4:41
> To: James Developers List
> Subject: Re: Forrest-made James test site - sneak preview
>
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
>>Nicola,
>>
>>What options exist to make it look more visually appealing? Maybe it is
>>just me, but when I compare the Forrest-made test site to Danny's
>
> Maven-made
>
>>test site at http://jakarta.apache.org/~danny/, I prefer the look of the
>>latter.
>>
>>Specifics:
>>
>> - I prefer the smaller font size
>> - I prefer the narrower menu, leaving
>> a wider main area, and less scrolling
>> - I prefer having section headings
>> - The intra-page section anchors are nice,
>> but not at the expense of everything else.
>>
>>YMMV, but those are my immediate visual responses. And I am assuming that
>>all of that is tunable. Please compare the two sites, and let me know
>
> what
>
>>you think. :-)
>
>
> I think you have good points.
>
> Actually, based on feedback from you guys and others, I've reworked the
> forrest skin to match better your visual expectations.
>
> Take a look here http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/beta3/ and see if
> it's better. This skin could also be a visual reference for the new
> forrest skin we're doing in pure CSS or used as such with color scheme
> modifications.
>
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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RE: Forrest-made James test site - sneak preview
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Nicola,
Thanks for your changes. Here are some additional specifics for your
consideration:
- I prefer the left flush menu area from http://www.apache.org/~danny/
- I like the indented menu layout from
http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/beta3/
- I still prefer the section headings from http://www.apache.org/~danny/
- I'm ambivalent about the "tabs", but if they are going to be there, I'd
prefer to see them look more like tabs (overlapped appearance and rounded
corners).
- I like a > b > c nav in http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/beta3/
We can talk about colors after you look these others over. :-)
What is the current status of proposing a site-wide look? The look you have
in Krysalis is rather different from the basic Apache/Jakarta look, or the
similar look used on the current Avalon site.
--- Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: Nicola Ken Barozzi [mailto:nicolaken@apache.org]
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 4:41
To: James Developers List
Subject: Re: Forrest-made James test site - sneak preview
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Nicola,
>
> What options exist to make it look more visually appealing? Maybe it is
> just me, but when I compare the Forrest-made test site to Danny's
Maven-made
> test site at http://jakarta.apache.org/~danny/, I prefer the look of the
> latter.
>
> Specifics:
>
> - I prefer the smaller font size
> - I prefer the narrower menu, leaving
> a wider main area, and less scrolling
> - I prefer having section headings
> - The intra-page section anchors are nice,
> but not at the expense of everything else.
>
> YMMV, but those are my immediate visual responses. And I am assuming that
> all of that is tunable. Please compare the two sites, and let me know
what
> you think. :-)
I think you have good points.
Actually, based on feedback from you guys and others, I've reworked the
forrest skin to match better your visual expectations.
Take a look here http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/beta3/ and see if
it's better. This skin could also be a visual reference for the new
forrest skin we're doing in pure CSS or used as such with color scheme
modifications.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: Forrest-made James test site - sneak preview
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Nicola,
>
> What options exist to make it look more visually appealing? Maybe it is
> just me, but when I compare the Forrest-made test site to Danny's Maven-made
> test site at http://jakarta.apache.org/~danny/, I prefer the look of the
> latter.
>
> Specifics:
>
> - I prefer the smaller font size
> - I prefer the narrower menu, leaving
> a wider main area, and less scrolling
> - I prefer having section headings
> - The intra-page section anchors are nice,
> but not at the expense of everything else.
>
> YMMV, but those are my immediate visual responses. And I am assuming that
> all of that is tunable. Please compare the two sites, and let me know what
> you think. :-)
I think you have good points.
Actually, based on feedback from you guys and others, I've reworked the
forrest skin to match better your visual expectations.
Take a look here http://www.krysalis.org/centipede/beta3/ and see if
it's better. This skin could also be a visual reference for the new
forrest skin we're doing in pure CSS or used as such with color scheme
modifications.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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RE: Forrest-made James test site - sneak preview
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Nicola,
What options exist to make it look more visually appealing? Maybe it is
just me, but when I compare the Forrest-made test site to Danny's Maven-made
test site at http://jakarta.apache.org/~danny/, I prefer the look of the
latter.
Specifics:
- I prefer the smaller font size
- I prefer the narrower menu, leaving
a wider main area, and less scrolling
- I prefer having section headings
- The intra-page section anchors are nice,
but not at the expense of everything else.
YMMV, but those are my immediate visual responses. And I am assuming that
all of that is tunable. Please compare the two sites, and let me know what
you think. :-)
--- Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: Nicola Ken Barozzi [mailto:nicolaken@apache.org]
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 18:35
To: James Developers List
Subject: Forrest-made James test site - sneak preview
As promised, I've set up a Forrestized version of the James website.
The original XML is not yet 100% validating, so there are still things
to tweak, but it's basically there.
Enjoy!
http://cvs.apache.org/~nicolaken/james/
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
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(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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