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Posted to dev@milagro.apache.org by Nick Kew <ni...@apache.org> on 2018/04/12 15:35:25 UTC
Milagro Rescue Roadmap
Posting to both dev@milagro and general@incubator.
As champion for Milagro, I feel responsible for this.
In retrospect, Milagro probably entered the incubator
prematurely. It has got hung up on issues of process
and infrastructure, and project activity hasn't
migrated to apache.
John has, for very good reasons, proposed retirement.
However, a poll on the subject attracted a crop of -1 votes:
people don't want it to retire.
I added a mentor note to April's (late) report:
"Retirement vote got a crop of NOs, though some of those may
have misunderstood its purpose. I'm proposing those who
support continuation make concrete progress in time to report
(on time) in May. Failing that, I will support retirement."
I think what we need right now is a roadmap to bring work
to Apache. That'll need the Milagro community to identify
what's holding it back, and us all to determine whether it
makes sense to resolve at apache or retire it to its
prior home at github.
Would folks be happy for me to set up a page for this purpose
under wiki/incubator? I would propose a skeleton (mainly a
set of headings) and look to the community to flesh it out.
--
Nick Kew
Re: Milagro Rescue Roadmap
Posted by Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>.
I think a key task here is to help people understand that retirement does
not me and that the community dies. What means in many respects is the
community's freed of the Apache process.
On Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 09:16 Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch>
wrote:
> Hi Nick,
>
> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 5:35 PM, Nick Kew <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
> > ...I think what we need right now is a roadmap to bring work
> > to Apache. That'll need the Milagro community to identify
> > what's holding it back, and us all to determine whether it
> > makes sense to resolve at apache or retire it to its
> > prior home at github....
>
> Definitely a job for the Milagro community - if people want to stay in
> the Incubator, they have to roll up their sleeves accordingly - with
> the support of their mentors, of course.
>
> > ...Would folks be happy for me to set up a page for this purpose
> > under wiki/incubator?...
>
> Sounds good to me, that might be useful for other similar situations.
>
> -Bertrand
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: Milagro Rescue Roadmap
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch>.
Hi Nick,
On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 5:35 PM, Nick Kew <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...I think what we need right now is a roadmap to bring work
> to Apache. That'll need the Milagro community to identify
> what's holding it back, and us all to determine whether it
> makes sense to resolve at apache or retire it to its
> prior home at github....
Definitely a job for the Milagro community - if people want to stay in
the Incubator, they have to roll up their sleeves accordingly - with
the support of their mentors, of course.
> ...Would folks be happy for me to set up a page for this purpose
> under wiki/incubator?...
Sounds good to me, that might be useful for other similar situations.
-Bertrand
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Re: Milagro Rescue Roadmap
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch>.
Hi Nick,
On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 5:35 PM, Nick Kew <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...I think what we need right now is a roadmap to bring work
> to Apache. That'll need the Milagro community to identify
> what's holding it back, and us all to determine whether it
> makes sense to resolve at apache or retire it to its
> prior home at github....
Definitely a job for the Milagro community - if people want to stay in
the Incubator, they have to roll up their sleeves accordingly - with
the support of their mentors, of course.
> ...Would folks be happy for me to set up a page for this purpose
> under wiki/incubator?...
Sounds good to me, that might be useful for other similar situations.
-Bertrand
Re: Milagro Rescue Roadmap
Posted by "John D. Ament" <jo...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 11:35 AM Nick Kew <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
> Posting to both dev@milagro and general@incubator.
> As champion for Milagro, I feel responsible for this.
>
> In retrospect, Milagro probably entered the incubator
> prematurely. It has got hung up on issues of process
> and infrastructure, and project activity hasn't
> migrated to apache.
>
> John has, for very good reasons, proposed retirement.
> However, a poll on the subject attracted a crop of -1 votes:
> people don't want it to retire.
>
> I added a mentor note to April's (late) report:
>
> "Retirement vote got a crop of NOs, though some of those may
> have misunderstood its purpose. I'm proposing those who
> support continuation make concrete progress in time to report
> (on time) in May. Failing that, I will support retirement."
>
> I think what we need right now is a roadmap to bring work
> to Apache. That'll need the Milagro community to identify
> what's holding it back, and us all to determine whether it
> makes sense to resolve at apache or retire it to its
> prior home at github.
>
Agreed. There are two big red flags that I see right now that are blocking
Milagro.
- Commits being proposed to their master repos that explicitly reference
repositories hosted by Miracl.
- A seemingly lack of project direction. Some NTT folks seem willing to
work with the project, but are waiting on Miracl to do something.
The first item is a clear problem. To be an Apache project, you need to be
vendor independent. You can't mix the company you work for an Apache, just
don't mix. It's not clear to me yet that the participants on the project
want that. Though that could easily be explained by joining Apache too
early. I suspect there are some other podlings in similar boats, but are
masked by just enough on list discussions.
>
> Would folks be happy for me to set up a page for this purpose
> under wiki/incubator? I would propose a skeleton (mainly a
> set of headings) and look to the community to flesh it out.
>
If Milagro already has a cwiki instance, I think it can live there.
>
> --
> Nick Kew
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
RE: Milagro Rescue Roadmap
Posted by Go Yamamoto <ya...@lab.ntt.co.jp>.
Hi Nick and all,
The current roadmap suggests rescuing this project by releasing the crypto
library part (AMCL) first.
It is because the library is the basis of everything we have developed in
this project, and I believe it is an useful fundamental software.
Please share your concerns and issues if any.
I have created some issues from the roadmap at the project JIRA.
https://issues.apache.org/jira/projects/MILAGRO/issues/
https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/MilagroRescueRoadmap
Anyone who want to join the conversation can create your account at the ASF
JIRA by following "Sign up" link at Login.
Nick, please comment me if we have any problems in using this ASF JIRA as
the project JIRA.
We (people from NTT) have been collaborating with people from Miracl as
initial committers, and we recognize Miracl asked us to take over some tasks
for managing this project.
Our engineer team is ready to work on the code for re-scoping as long as it
is done by edits or minor modifications over existing code.
Regards,
Go Yamamoto
-----Original Message-----
From: Go Yamamoto [mailto:go@apache.org]
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2018 12:33 AM
To: dev@milagro.incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Milagro Rescue Roadmap
Hi team,
I have updated the Milagro rescue wiki.
Please feel free to comment the change.
I think we can start Step 1 immediately.
Nick, can you point someone who decide the project JIRA?
For Step 2, we will need to discuss the scope of the initial code at the
project repo.
I propose to start from the AMCL library, the crypto library for elliptic
curve operations with pairings.
It is the essential part that delivers unique value from this development
loop with crypto specialists.
I think this minimal scope will also help our management easier because it
is unlikely to be influenced by business environments of participants.
Regards,
Go Yamamoto
Re: Milagro Rescue Roadmap
Posted by Go Yamamoto <go...@apache.org>.
Hi team,
I have updated the Milagro rescue wiki.
Please feel free to comment the change.
I think we can start Step 1 immediately.
Nick, can you point someone who decide the project JIRA?
For Step 2, we will need to discuss the scope of the initial code at the project repo.
I propose to start from the AMCL library, the crypto library for elliptic curve operations with pairings.
It is the essential part that delivers unique value from this development loop with crypto specialists.
I think this minimal scope will also help our management easier because it is unlikely to be influenced by business environments of participants.
Regards,
Go Yamamoto
Re: Milagro Rescue Roadmap
Posted by Nick Kew <ni...@apache.org>.
>> -----Original Message——
>
> Whoops, I hadn’t seen that one. So we’ve essentially lost a week.
> I’ll try and review it this evening - bug me if I haven’t followed up
> within 24 hours!
Reading that, it looks like a useful start to the roadmap. I think once you’ve
entered it, we have something to present to the broader community.
Along with the statement we now have from Miracl, which throws some
light on why we are where we are now, and perhaps opens the prospect of,
in essence, rebooting the whole project.
—
Nick Kew
Re: Milagro Rescue Roadmap
Posted by Nick Kew <ni...@apache.org>.
> On 29 Apr 2018, at 22:59, Go Yamamoto <ya...@lab.ntt.co.jp> wrote:
>
> Hi Nick,
Sorry, I’ve been largely out of email contact, and may have lost some email
altogether after a hiatus with my server’s hosts.
> Could you please give PMCs and initial committers write access to the Wiki
> page?
> https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/MilagroRescueRoadmap
I’m not a wiki administrator. You need to ask on general@incubator, quoting
your wiki username (not the same as your apache ID - the wiki is open to
people who are not apache committers).
> I will update the wiki page to add our proposals.
Great - thanks. I guess I’ll need to check in the archives whether we have
anyone other than you and me in this thread.
> The first problem to solve is lack of write access permissions for
> committers at document sites and repositories.
> We need write access to contribute ether it is documents or codes.
OK, that needs sorting on this list, and will (hopefully) be a matter
we (mentors) can deal with.
> -----Original Message——
Whoops, I hadn’t seen that one. So we’ve essentially lost a week.
I’ll try and review it this evening - bug me if I haven’t followed up
within 24 hours!
The good news is, incubator hasn’t scheduled us to report this month.
So the time pressure is relieved - for now at least.
—
Nick Kew
RE: Milagro Rescue Roadmap
Posted by Go Yamamoto <ya...@lab.ntt.co.jp>.
Hi Nick,
Could you please give PMCs and initial committers write access to the Wiki
page?
https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/MilagroRescueRoadmap
I will update the wiki page to add our proposals.
The first problem to solve is lack of write access permissions for
committers at document sites and repositories.
We need write access to contribute ether it is documents or codes.
Regards,
Go Yamamoto
-----Original Message-----
From: Go Yamamoto [mailto:yamamoto.go@lab.ntt.co.jp]
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2018 3:34 AM
To: dev@milagro.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: Milagro Rescue Roadmap
Hi Nick and team,
Thank you for clarifying the problem. I think we can discuss by agreeing
criteria that define what is work in Apache and what is donation.
In my opinion the difference is in the place where the ticket/review
processes are held. The works at Apache will be a bunch of codes that
resolves tickets at Apache and that are reviewed and accepted by the Apache
project community. All the other works can be thought as donations.
The codes in various milagro* repose are technically matured to work as the
MFA product as described in the project proposal as far as the engineers in
NTT play with them, and I suppose so is in Miracl too. That is why no
significant changes are happening in recent months. However it is obvious
that we need a lot of works to develop it as a matured open source software
that is widely used and is accepted as a fundamental software.
To start the works at Apache, I propose an immediate action list.
(1) Prepare Milagro JIRA
a. If we can user https://issues.apache.org/jira/projects/MILAGRO/,
then provision accounts for committers and announce it as the project JIRA.
(2) Prepare write access rights to committers at the official repository
(3) Bind Milagro JIRA with the official repository at GitHub
(4) Commit selected codes from various milagro* repos and accept as
donation.
a. We need to discuss a roadmap to accept codes.
(5) Ticket problems at Milagro JIRA for further developments.
I propose to use Milagro JIRA not only for ticketing problems in the
development but in the management processes. For example, I am an initial
committer of this project but I do not have a write access to the official
repository at GitHub, so it blocks for NTT to join the editorial works at
the official repository. If we have JIRA, I can place a ticket that says
“I need write-access” and we can discuss how to resolve it.
Regards,
Go Yamamoto
-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Kew [mailto:niq@apache.org]
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 11:28 PM
To: dev@milagro.incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Milagro Rescue Roadmap
On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 19:46:36 +0900
"Go Yamamoto" <ya...@lab.ntt.co.jp> wrote:
> Hi Milagro team,
>
> We need to talk to update the wiki page.
Indeed.
> I have a question, what is our definition of "place elsewhere"?
>
> Because of the nature of the pull-request driven workflow, the code is
> updated at each participant's fork repository first.
> Does anybody think it is developed in a place elsewhere than Apache
> for this situation?
The issue isn't that individual developers work in their own forks from time
to time. Or even most of the time. That's fine.
What's not fine is that great swathes of work happen elsewhere and appear as
a big code dump! That's a donation, and the idea of incubation is that we
*start* with a donation and work in the open thereafter!
The issue is that nothing seems to be happening at all at apache.
The last commit that does anything (and that just fixing a URL) was on
October 17th. And nothing before that since 2016, when we thought activity
was initial project setup!
Meanwhile, as John pointed out, development seems to be happening
elsewhere: various milagro* repos at github. The bundle John cited as an
example:
https://git1-us-west.apache.org/repos/asf?p=incubator-milagro-mfa-server.git
;a=log
looks to me like a lot more than a developer's working branch!
> If yes, then is it a problem to solve in managing this project?
It's a roadmap we want right now. Why is nothing happening at Apache? Does
the project really want to work at Apache (bearing in mind, working
elsewhere and dumping code to Apache is not a solution)? Are all the team
on board?
I'm looking to you (everyone@milagro) to think through how work can migrate
to apache, and commit to migrating. Then flesh out that roadmap!
Note that on the infrastructure side, we can do more now than when Milagro
first entered incubation. I think gitbox is likely to feature in the
roadmap, if folks will use it!
--
Nick Kew
RE: Milagro Rescue Roadmap
Posted by Go Yamamoto <ya...@lab.ntt.co.jp>.
Hi Nick and team,
Thank you for clarifying the problem. I think we can discuss by agreeing
criteria that define what is work in Apache and what is donation.
In my opinion the difference is in the place where the ticket/review
processes are held. The works at Apache will be a bunch of codes that
resolves tickets at Apache and that are reviewed and accepted by the Apache
project community. All the other works can be thought as donations.
The codes in various milagro* repose are technically matured to work as the
MFA product as described in the project proposal as far as the engineers in
NTT play with them, and I suppose so is in Miracl too. That is why no
significant changes are happening in recent months. However it is obvious
that we need a lot of works to develop it as a matured open source software
that is widely used and is accepted as a fundamental software.
To start the works at Apache, I propose an immediate action list.
(1) Prepare Milagro JIRA
a. If we can user https://issues.apache.org/jira/projects/MILAGRO/,
then provision accounts for committers and announce it as the project JIRA.
(2) Prepare write access rights to committers at the official repository
(3) Bind Milagro JIRA with the official repository at GitHub
(4) Commit selected codes from various milagro* repos and accept as
donation.
a. We need to discuss a roadmap to accept codes.
(5) Ticket problems at Milagro JIRA for further developments.
I propose to use Milagro JIRA not only for ticketing problems in the
development but in the management processes. For example, I am an initial
committer of this project but I do not have a write access to the official
repository at GitHub, so it blocks for NTT to join the editorial works at
the official repository. If we have JIRA, I can place a ticket that says
“I need write-access” and we can discuss how to resolve it.
Regards,
Go Yamamoto
-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Kew [mailto:niq@apache.org]
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 11:28 PM
To: dev@milagro.incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Milagro Rescue Roadmap
On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 19:46:36 +0900
"Go Yamamoto" <ya...@lab.ntt.co.jp> wrote:
> Hi Milagro team,
>
> We need to talk to update the wiki page.
Indeed.
> I have a question, what is our definition of "place elsewhere"?
>
> Because of the nature of the pull-request driven workflow, the code is
> updated at each participant's fork repository first.
> Does anybody think it is developed in a place elsewhere than Apache
> for this situation?
The issue isn't that individual developers work in their own forks from time
to time. Or even most of the time. That's fine.
What's not fine is that great swathes of work happen elsewhere and appear as
a big code dump! That's a donation, and the idea of incubation is that we
*start* with a donation and work in the open thereafter!
The issue is that nothing seems to be happening at all at apache.
The last commit that does anything (and that just fixing a URL) was on
October 17th. And nothing before that since 2016, when we thought activity
was initial project setup!
Meanwhile, as John pointed out, development seems to be happening
elsewhere: various milagro* repos at github. The bundle John cited as an
example:
https://git1-us-west.apache.org/repos/asf?p=incubator-milagro-mfa-server.git
;a=log
looks to me like a lot more than a developer's working branch!
> If yes, then is it a problem to solve in managing this project?
It's a roadmap we want right now. Why is nothing happening at Apache? Does
the project really want to work at Apache (bearing in mind, working
elsewhere and dumping code to Apache is not a solution)? Are all the team
on board?
I'm looking to you (everyone@milagro) to think through how work can migrate
to apache, and commit to migrating. Then flesh out that roadmap!
Note that on the infrastructure side, we can do more now than when Milagro
first entered incubation. I think gitbox is likely to feature in the
roadmap, if folks will use it!
--
Nick Kew
Re: Milagro Rescue Roadmap
Posted by Nick Kew <ni...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 19:46:36 +0900
"Go Yamamoto" <ya...@lab.ntt.co.jp> wrote:
> Hi Milagro team,
>
> We need to talk to update the wiki page.
Indeed.
> I have a question, what is our definition of "place elsewhere"?
>
> Because of the nature of the pull-request driven workflow, the code is
> updated at each participant's fork repository first.
> Does anybody think it is developed in a place elsewhere than Apache
> for this situation?
The issue isn't that individual developers work in their own forks
from time to time. Or even most of the time. That's fine.
What's not fine is that great swathes of work happen elsewhere
and appear as a big code dump! That's a donation, and the
idea of incubation is that we *start* with a donation and work
in the open thereafter!
The issue is that nothing seems to be happening at all at apache.
The last commit that does anything (and that just fixing a URL)
was on October 17th. And nothing before that since 2016, when
we thought activity was initial project setup!
Meanwhile, as John pointed out, development seems to be happening
elsewhere: various milagro* repos at github. The bundle John
cited as an example:
https://git1-us-west.apache.org/repos/asf?p=incubator-milagro-mfa-server.git;a=log
looks to me like a lot more than a developer's working branch!
> If yes, then is it a problem to solve in managing this project?
It's a roadmap we want right now. Why is nothing happening
at Apache? Does the project really want to work at Apache
(bearing in mind, working elsewhere and dumping code to Apache
is not a solution)? Are all the team on board?
I'm looking to you (everyone@milagro) to think through how work
can migrate to apache, and commit to migrating. Then flesh
out that roadmap!
Note that on the infrastructure side, we can do more now than
when Milagro first entered incubation. I think gitbox is likely
to feature in the roadmap, if folks will use it!
--
Nick Kew
RE: Milagro Rescue Roadmap
Posted by Go Yamamoto <ya...@lab.ntt.co.jp>.
Hi Milagro team,
We need to talk to update the wiki page.
I have a question, what is our definition of "place elsewhere"?
Because of the nature of the pull-request driven workflow, the code is
updated at each participant's fork repository first.
Does anybody think it is developed in a place elsewhere than Apache for this
situation?
If yes, then is it a problem to solve in managing this project?
Regards,
Go Yamamoto
-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Kew [mailto:niq@apache.org]
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2018 7:22 AM
To: general@incubator.apache.org; dev@milagro.incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Milagro Rescue Roadmap
On Thu, 12 Apr 2018 16:35:25 +0100
Nick Kew <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
> Posting to both dev@milagro and general@incubator.
> Would folks be happy for me to set up a page for this purpose under
> wiki/incubator? I would propose a skeleton (mainly a set of headings)
> and look to the community to flesh it out.
>
OK, I've created a skeleton
https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/MilagroRescueRoadmap
With a list of headings based on my understanding of the situation. I hope
others will review and improve my list, clarify the issues listed, and fill
in the big blanks. If this can grow to a credible roadmap by the end of
April, I think we have the basis of a rescue!
Direct edits to the wiki are great. If unsure about an idea, either add it
there as tentative, or discuss on-list.
Or of course both!
--
Nick Kew
Re: Milagro Rescue Roadmap
Posted by Nick Kew <ni...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 12 Apr 2018 16:35:25 +0100
Nick Kew <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
> Posting to both dev@milagro and general@incubator.
> Would folks be happy for me to set up a page for this purpose
> under wiki/incubator? I would propose a skeleton (mainly a
> set of headings) and look to the community to flesh it out.
>
OK, I've created a skeleton
https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/MilagroRescueRoadmap
With a list of headings based on my understanding of
the situation. I hope others will review and improve
my list, clarify the issues listed, and fill in the
big blanks. If this can grow to a credible roadmap by
the end of April, I think we have the basis of a rescue!
Direct edits to the wiki are great. If unsure about an
idea, either add it there as tentative, or discuss on-list.
Or of course both!
--
Nick Kew
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Milagro Rescue Roadmap
Posted by Nick Kew <ni...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 12 Apr 2018 16:35:25 +0100
Nick Kew <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
> Posting to both dev@milagro and general@incubator.
> Would folks be happy for me to set up a page for this purpose
> under wiki/incubator? I would propose a skeleton (mainly a
> set of headings) and look to the community to flesh it out.
>
OK, I've created a skeleton
https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/MilagroRescueRoadmap
With a list of headings based on my understanding of
the situation. I hope others will review and improve
my list, clarify the issues listed, and fill in the
big blanks. If this can grow to a credible roadmap by
the end of April, I think we have the basis of a rescue!
Direct edits to the wiki are great. If unsure about an
idea, either add it there as tentative, or discuss on-list.
Or of course both!
--
Nick Kew
Re: Milagro Rescue Roadmap
Posted by "John D. Ament" <jo...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 11:35 AM Nick Kew <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
> Posting to both dev@milagro and general@incubator.
> As champion for Milagro, I feel responsible for this.
>
> In retrospect, Milagro probably entered the incubator
> prematurely. It has got hung up on issues of process
> and infrastructure, and project activity hasn't
> migrated to apache.
>
> John has, for very good reasons, proposed retirement.
> However, a poll on the subject attracted a crop of -1 votes:
> people don't want it to retire.
>
> I added a mentor note to April's (late) report:
>
> "Retirement vote got a crop of NOs, though some of those may
> have misunderstood its purpose. I'm proposing those who
> support continuation make concrete progress in time to report
> (on time) in May. Failing that, I will support retirement."
>
> I think what we need right now is a roadmap to bring work
> to Apache. That'll need the Milagro community to identify
> what's holding it back, and us all to determine whether it
> makes sense to resolve at apache or retire it to its
> prior home at github.
>
Agreed. There are two big red flags that I see right now that are blocking
Milagro.
- Commits being proposed to their master repos that explicitly reference
repositories hosted by Miracl.
- A seemingly lack of project direction. Some NTT folks seem willing to
work with the project, but are waiting on Miracl to do something.
The first item is a clear problem. To be an Apache project, you need to be
vendor independent. You can't mix the company you work for an Apache, just
don't mix. It's not clear to me yet that the participants on the project
want that. Though that could easily be explained by joining Apache too
early. I suspect there are some other podlings in similar boats, but are
masked by just enough on list discussions.
>
> Would folks be happy for me to set up a page for this purpose
> under wiki/incubator? I would propose a skeleton (mainly a
> set of headings) and look to the community to flesh it out.
>
If Milagro already has a cwiki instance, I think it can live there.
>
> --
> Nick Kew
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>