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Posted to dev@community.apache.org by sebb <se...@gmail.com> on 2025/06/08 15:58:12 UTC
p.a.o index: confusing summary of open source initiatives
5 special committees are currently included under "open source initiatives".
I'm not sure these can be classed as such (and they are not included
in the total).
I think they should just be dropped: do they play any part in the rest
of the site?
Also, the 300+ number looks wrong, because the number of 'missing'
DOAPs is not shown.
If we are going to include these, then the number should be shown.
Sebb
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Re: p.a.o index: confusing summary of open source initiatives
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, 9 Jun 2025 at 15:18, Hervé Boutemy <hb...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> I see, we don't have the same vocabulary but the same intent
>
> https://projects.apache.org/ looks much more accurate now
The figures are accurate in relation to the data used by the site, but
the page still does not give the full picture as to the scope of the
data.
There are 36 PMCs that have not provided any project data (and no
doubt some PMCs have not provided data on all their projects).
I make that at least 18% of the project data missing, which is a
substantial proportion, and should not be ignored.
> Le lundi 9 juin 2025, 11:16:43 CEST sebb a écrit :
> > On Mon, 9 Jun 2025 at 08:07, Hervé Boutemy <hb...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > Le lundi 9 juin 2025, 00:15:30 CEST sebb a écrit :
> > > > On Sun, 8 Jun 2025 at 22:19, Hervé Boutemy <hb...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > > > you're right, I don't remember why it made sense to list these more
> > > > > than
> > > > > 10
> > > > > years ago: it was there in the initial import
> > > > > https://svn.apache.org/viewvc/?view=revision&revision=1651762
> > > > >
> > > > > it seems it's because it started by counting PMC chairs, with notions
> > > > > of
> > > > > TLP and sub-projects...
> > > > >
> > > > > nowadays it's more noise than anything on this p.a.o site
> > > > > and we have much clearer description of these special offices at
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.apache.org/foundation/leadership
> > > > >
> > > > > +1 to drop this note about the 5 special committees
> > > >
> > > > Done.
> > >
> > > thank you
> > >
> > > > > on 300+, nobody knows the real number
> > > > > we need to work around this fact
> > > >
> > > > We could just say:
> > > >
> > > > "There are hundreds of open source initiatives at the ASF"
> > >
> > > yes, good idea
> > >
> > > > > "208 committees managing 295 projects"
> > > > > we can rephrase to "managing more than 295 projects" and link to the
> > > > > projects.html page?
> > > > >
> > > > > I'd really love to have index page staying out of technicalities like
> > > > > barbarian DOAP term: projects.html page is there to go more in depth
> > > > >
> > > > > to me, index requires to be human oriented
> > > >
> > > > It also needs to be accurate regarding the completeness of the data.
> > >
> > > you know that accurate on projects list is impossible, unless something
> > > huge happens (ATR may be that "huge thing"...)
> > >
> > > instead of "accurate", I'd say "honest", "transparent"
> > > and for sure promote improvement
> >
> > I meant we need to be accurate in what we write about the
> > *completeness* of the data.
> > That is very different from accuracy of the data itself, which we know
> > is unlikely ever to be 100% accurate, even if all PMCs have provided
> > DOAPs.
> > What we do know is that a substantial proportion of PMCs have not
> > provided DOAPs.
> > That is not clear from the current front page, indeed the opposite is
> > implied.
> >
> > Whatever you choose to call it, at present the wording is not fully
> > transparent, honest or accurate.
> >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > Hervé
> > > > >
> > > > > Le dimanche 8 juin 2025, 17:58:12 CEST sebb a écrit :
> > > > > > 5 special committees are currently included under "open source
> > > > > > initiatives".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm not sure these can be classed as such (and they are not included
> > > > > > in the total).
> > > > > > I think they should just be dropped: do they play any part in the
> > > > > > rest
> > > > > > of the site?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Also, the 300+ number looks wrong, because the number of 'missing'
> > > > > > DOAPs is not shown.
> > > > > > If we are going to include these, then the number should be shown.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sebb
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > -
> > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: p.a.o index: confusing summary of open source initiatives
Posted by Hervé Boutemy <hb...@apache.org>.
I see, we don't have the same vocabulary but the same intent
https://projects.apache.org/ looks much more accurate now
Le lundi 9 juin 2025, 11:16:43 CEST sebb a écrit :
> On Mon, 9 Jun 2025 at 08:07, Hervé Boutemy <hb...@apache.org> wrote:
> > Le lundi 9 juin 2025, 00:15:30 CEST sebb a écrit :
> > > On Sun, 8 Jun 2025 at 22:19, Hervé Boutemy <hb...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > > you're right, I don't remember why it made sense to list these more
> > > > than
> > > > 10
> > > > years ago: it was there in the initial import
> > > > https://svn.apache.org/viewvc/?view=revision&revision=1651762
> > > >
> > > > it seems it's because it started by counting PMC chairs, with notions
> > > > of
> > > > TLP and sub-projects...
> > > >
> > > > nowadays it's more noise than anything on this p.a.o site
> > > > and we have much clearer description of these special offices at
> > > >
> > > > https://www.apache.org/foundation/leadership
> > > >
> > > > +1 to drop this note about the 5 special committees
> > >
> > > Done.
> >
> > thank you
> >
> > > > on 300+, nobody knows the real number
> > > > we need to work around this fact
> > >
> > > We could just say:
> > >
> > > "There are hundreds of open source initiatives at the ASF"
> >
> > yes, good idea
> >
> > > > "208 committees managing 295 projects"
> > > > we can rephrase to "managing more than 295 projects" and link to the
> > > > projects.html page?
> > > >
> > > > I'd really love to have index page staying out of technicalities like
> > > > barbarian DOAP term: projects.html page is there to go more in depth
> > > >
> > > > to me, index requires to be human oriented
> > >
> > > It also needs to be accurate regarding the completeness of the data.
> >
> > you know that accurate on projects list is impossible, unless something
> > huge happens (ATR may be that "huge thing"...)
> >
> > instead of "accurate", I'd say "honest", "transparent"
> > and for sure promote improvement
>
> I meant we need to be accurate in what we write about the
> *completeness* of the data.
> That is very different from accuracy of the data itself, which we know
> is unlikely ever to be 100% accurate, even if all PMCs have provided
> DOAPs.
> What we do know is that a substantial proportion of PMCs have not
> provided DOAPs.
> That is not clear from the current front page, indeed the opposite is
> implied.
>
> Whatever you choose to call it, at present the wording is not fully
> transparent, honest or accurate.
>
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Hervé
> > > >
> > > > Le dimanche 8 juin 2025, 17:58:12 CEST sebb a écrit :
> > > > > 5 special committees are currently included under "open source
> > > > > initiatives".
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm not sure these can be classed as such (and they are not included
> > > > > in the total).
> > > > > I think they should just be dropped: do they play any part in the
> > > > > rest
> > > > > of the site?
> > > > >
> > > > > Also, the 300+ number looks wrong, because the number of 'missing'
> > > > > DOAPs is not shown.
> > > > > If we are going to include these, then the number should be shown.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sebb
> > > > >
> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > -
> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: p.a.o index: confusing summary of open source initiatives
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, 9 Jun 2025 at 08:07, Hervé Boutemy <hb...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Le lundi 9 juin 2025, 00:15:30 CEST sebb a écrit :
> > On Sun, 8 Jun 2025 at 22:19, Hervé Boutemy <hb...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > you're right, I don't remember why it made sense to list these more than
> > > 10
> > > years ago: it was there in the initial import
> > > https://svn.apache.org/viewvc/?view=revision&revision=1651762
> > >
> > > it seems it's because it started by counting PMC chairs, with notions of
> > > TLP and sub-projects...
> > >
> > > nowadays it's more noise than anything on this p.a.o site
> > > and we have much clearer description of these special offices at
> > >
> > > https://www.apache.org/foundation/leadership
> > >
> > > +1 to drop this note about the 5 special committees
> >
> > Done.
> thank you
>
> >
> > > on 300+, nobody knows the real number
> > > we need to work around this fact
> >
> > We could just say:
> >
> > "There are hundreds of open source initiatives at the ASF"
> yes, good idea
>
> >
> > > "208 committees managing 295 projects"
> > > we can rephrase to "managing more than 295 projects" and link to the
> > > projects.html page?
> > >
> > > I'd really love to have index page staying out of technicalities like
> > > barbarian DOAP term: projects.html page is there to go more in depth
> > >
> > > to me, index requires to be human oriented
> >
> > It also needs to be accurate regarding the completeness of the data.
> you know that accurate on projects list is impossible, unless something huge
> happens (ATR may be that "huge thing"...)
>
> instead of "accurate", I'd say "honest", "transparent"
> and for sure promote improvement
I meant we need to be accurate in what we write about the
*completeness* of the data.
That is very different from accuracy of the data itself, which we know
is unlikely ever to be 100% accurate, even if all PMCs have provided
DOAPs.
What we do know is that a substantial proportion of PMCs have not
provided DOAPs.
That is not clear from the current front page, indeed the opposite is implied.
Whatever you choose to call it, at present the wording is not fully
transparent, honest or accurate.
> >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Hervé
> > >
> > > Le dimanche 8 juin 2025, 17:58:12 CEST sebb a écrit :
> > > > 5 special committees are currently included under "open source
> > > > initiatives".
> > > >
> > > > I'm not sure these can be classed as such (and they are not included
> > > > in the total).
> > > > I think they should just be dropped: do they play any part in the rest
> > > > of the site?
> > > >
> > > > Also, the 300+ number looks wrong, because the number of 'missing'
> > > > DOAPs is not shown.
> > > > If we are going to include these, then the number should be shown.
> > > >
> > > > Sebb
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
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Re: p.a.o index: confusing summary of open source initiatives
Posted by Hervé Boutemy <hb...@apache.org>.
Le lundi 9 juin 2025, 00:15:30 CEST sebb a écrit :
> On Sun, 8 Jun 2025 at 22:19, Hervé Boutemy <hb...@apache.org> wrote:
> > you're right, I don't remember why it made sense to list these more than
> > 10
> > years ago: it was there in the initial import
> > https://svn.apache.org/viewvc/?view=revision&revision=1651762
> >
> > it seems it's because it started by counting PMC chairs, with notions of
> > TLP and sub-projects...
> >
> > nowadays it's more noise than anything on this p.a.o site
> > and we have much clearer description of these special offices at
> >
> > https://www.apache.org/foundation/leadership
> >
> > +1 to drop this note about the 5 special committees
>
> Done.
thank you
>
> > on 300+, nobody knows the real number
> > we need to work around this fact
>
> We could just say:
>
> "There are hundreds of open source initiatives at the ASF"
yes, good idea
>
> > "208 committees managing 295 projects"
> > we can rephrase to "managing more than 295 projects" and link to the
> > projects.html page?
> >
> > I'd really love to have index page staying out of technicalities like
> > barbarian DOAP term: projects.html page is there to go more in depth
> >
> > to me, index requires to be human oriented
>
> It also needs to be accurate regarding the completeness of the data.
you know that accurate on projects list is impossible, unless something huge
happens (ATR may be that "huge thing"...)
instead of "accurate", I'd say "honest", "transparent"
and for sure promote improvement
>
> > Regards,
> >
> > Hervé
> >
> > Le dimanche 8 juin 2025, 17:58:12 CEST sebb a écrit :
> > > 5 special committees are currently included under "open source
> > > initiatives".
> > >
> > > I'm not sure these can be classed as such (and they are not included
> > > in the total).
> > > I think they should just be dropped: do they play any part in the rest
> > > of the site?
> > >
> > > Also, the 300+ number looks wrong, because the number of 'missing'
> > > DOAPs is not shown.
> > > If we are going to include these, then the number should be shown.
> > >
> > > Sebb
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: p.a.o index: confusing summary of open source initiatives
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, 8 Jun 2025 at 22:19, Hervé Boutemy <hb...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> you're right, I don't remember why it made sense to list these more than 10
> years ago: it was there in the initial import
> https://svn.apache.org/viewvc/?view=revision&revision=1651762
>
> it seems it's because it started by counting PMC chairs, with notions of TLP
> and sub-projects...
>
> nowadays it's more noise than anything on this p.a.o site
> and we have much clearer description of these special offices at
> https://www.apache.org/foundation/leadership
>
> +1 to drop this note about the 5 special committees
>
Done.
> on 300+, nobody knows the real number
> we need to work around this fact
We could just say:
"There are hundreds of open source initiatives at the ASF"
> "208 committees managing 295 projects"
> we can rephrase to "managing more than 295 projects" and link to the
> projects.html page?
>
> I'd really love to have index page staying out of technicalities like
> barbarian DOAP term: projects.html page is there to go more in depth
>
> to me, index requires to be human oriented
It also needs to be accurate regarding the completeness of the data.
> Regards,
>
> Hervé
>
> Le dimanche 8 juin 2025, 17:58:12 CEST sebb a écrit :
> > 5 special committees are currently included under "open source initiatives".
> >
> > I'm not sure these can be classed as such (and they are not included
> > in the total).
> > I think they should just be dropped: do they play any part in the rest
> > of the site?
> >
> > Also, the 300+ number looks wrong, because the number of 'missing'
> > DOAPs is not shown.
> > If we are going to include these, then the number should be shown.
> >
> > Sebb
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
>
>
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
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Re: p.a.o index: confusing summary of open source initiatives
Posted by Hervé Boutemy <hb...@apache.org>.
you're right, I don't remember why it made sense to list these more than 10
years ago: it was there in the initial import
https://svn.apache.org/viewvc/?view=revision&revision=1651762
it seems it's because it started by counting PMC chairs, with notions of TLP
and sub-projects...
nowadays it's more noise than anything on this p.a.o site
and we have much clearer description of these special offices at
https://www.apache.org/foundation/leadership
+1 to drop this note about the 5 special committees
on 300+, nobody knows the real number
we need to work around this fact
"208 committees managing 295 projects"
we can rephrase to "managing more than 295 projects" and link to the
projects.html page?
I'd really love to have index page staying out of technicalities like
barbarian DOAP term: projects.html page is there to go more in depth
to me, index requires to be human oriented
Regards,
Hervé
Le dimanche 8 juin 2025, 17:58:12 CEST sebb a écrit :
> 5 special committees are currently included under "open source initiatives".
>
> I'm not sure these can be classed as such (and they are not included
> in the total).
> I think they should just be dropped: do they play any part in the rest
> of the site?
>
> Also, the 300+ number looks wrong, because the number of 'missing'
> DOAPs is not shown.
> If we are going to include these, then the number should be shown.
>
> Sebb
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
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