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Posted to user@couchdb.apache.org by Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> on 2014/10/28 16:03:13 UTC
Re: [DISCUSS] Improved CouchDB logo / tagline / project name
All,
I would remind you to try and proceed in this discussion with a
modicum of decorum and assuming good faith on the part of those
engaged. Sarcasm, anger, and facetious responses are not helping.
Once again, for the record, I don't have a problem with the
logo personally, but I have a responsibility to raise this issue
as a representative of the PMC and because of the requests of
those who approached me. I have no other mission here. I knew
when I started the thread it'd turn into a bikeshed; sadly,
there was no way to avoid that, as burying the requests would
be tantamount to me making an *individual* decision that trumps
that of the collective -- hardly becoming behaviour for a PMC
member.
Let me try and summarize the discussion to date. I didn't count
up responses to the thread, but it seems clear that nearly all
respondents so far have no issue personally with the logo.
A minority of individuals suggested that it may be time to change
the logo, the tagline and even the project name for various reasons.
If we're considering any of these steps, now would be the time to
figure that out -- prior to the impending 2.0 beta and release.
I'd like to steer discussion towards these points and away from
the topic of logo acceptability -- it's become clear to me that
there is no further useful discussion possible on that topic.
Best regards,
Joan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan Green" <db...@gmail.com>
To: "Giovanni Parra" <fi...@gmail.com>
Cc: user@couchdb.apache.org
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2014 10:18:10 AM
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Improved CouchDB logo
I am sure someone would find it offensive (maybe artists)? The point is
that we can't decide what is offensive to someone else. We should do our
best, within reason, to not offend. Also, the you have to keep in mind
that a brand logo is not just art. It has a particular use to get a
branding message across. If we feel that the current brand for couchdb is
best represented by the current logo, then we shouldn't change anything and
be ok with the people who are put off from couchdb due to the logo (no
matter how "silly" we think that is). If we have doubts then we should
discuss it.
Personally, I am not sure the Relax mantra is a good one anymore either.
On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 7:10 AM, Giovanni P <fi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> After re-reading the first message of the thread I'm convinced that,
> despite the present logo not being offensive in any way, it can sometimes
> give a wrong impression.
>
> My humble suggestion is that we gather suggestions and, if we find none,
> maintain the logo. Otherwise change it.
>
> So here is my (serious) idea for a logo that fits with the "relax" motto:
> http://www.papeldeparede.etc.br/wallpapers/snoopy-e-woodstock_6591_1024x768.jpg
>
> On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Giovanni P <fi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/Et_selskab_af_danske_kunstnere_i_Rom.jpg
>> is this offensive?
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 11:59 AM, Bryan Green <db...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I would assume we would discuss it as we are now.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 6:58 AM, Giovanni P <fi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> If I declare myself offended (for no reason, because there is
>>>> absolutely no
>>>> reason to be offended by the present logo) by the next logo you come up
>>>> with, will you change it?
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 11:51 AM, Alexander Shorin <kx...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 4:33 PM, Bryan Green <db...@gmail.com>
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> > > It may not offend you, but apparently it offends some people. This
>>>> is a
>>>> > > bad thing for a logo. I think this is why it is rare for the human
>>>> > figure
>>>> > > to be common in most logos. Most keep logos very simple.
>>>> >
>>>> > There are 7 billion people on Earth - you'll never fit them all.
>>>> > Let's move away from abstract angry offended people to concrete ones
>>>> > with their own arguments why they thought that logo hits them and
>>>> > discuss their problem personally. Anyone around? Joan?
>>>> > Otherwise this is counterproductive discussion about edge cases which
>>>> > will never happens.
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> > ,,,^..^,,,
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Improved CouchDB logo / tagline / project name
Posted by Bryan Green <db...@gmail.com>.
I agree. I offer sincere apologies if I have offended anyone.
B
On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 8:03 AM, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
> All,
>
> I would remind you to try and proceed in this discussion with a
> modicum of decorum and assuming good faith on the part of those
> engaged. Sarcasm, anger, and facetious responses are not helping.
>
> Once again, for the record, I don't have a problem with the
> logo personally, but I have a responsibility to raise this issue
> as a representative of the PMC and because of the requests of
> those who approached me. I have no other mission here. I knew
> when I started the thread it'd turn into a bikeshed; sadly,
> there was no way to avoid that, as burying the requests would
> be tantamount to me making an *individual* decision that trumps
> that of the collective -- hardly becoming behaviour for a PMC
> member.
>
> Let me try and summarize the discussion to date. I didn't count
> up responses to the thread, but it seems clear that nearly all
> respondents so far have no issue personally with the logo.
>
> A minority of individuals suggested that it may be time to change
> the logo, the tagline and even the project name for various reasons.
> If we're considering any of these steps, now would be the time to
> figure that out -- prior to the impending 2.0 beta and release.
>
> I'd like to steer discussion towards these points and away from
> the topic of logo acceptability -- it's become clear to me that
> there is no further useful discussion possible on that topic.
>
> Best regards,
> Joan
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bryan Green" <db...@gmail.com>
> To: "Giovanni Parra" <fi...@gmail.com>
> Cc: user@couchdb.apache.org
> Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2014 10:18:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Improved CouchDB logo
>
> I am sure someone would find it offensive (maybe artists)? The point is
> that we can't decide what is offensive to someone else. We should do our
> best, within reason, to not offend. Also, the you have to keep in mind
> that a brand logo is not just art. It has a particular use to get a
> branding message across. If we feel that the current brand for couchdb is
> best represented by the current logo, then we shouldn't change anything and
> be ok with the people who are put off from couchdb due to the logo (no
> matter how "silly" we think that is). If we have doubts then we should
> discuss it.
>
> Personally, I am not sure the Relax mantra is a good one anymore either.
>
> On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 7:10 AM, Giovanni P <fi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > After re-reading the first message of the thread I'm convinced that,
> > despite the present logo not being offensive in any way, it can sometimes
> > give a wrong impression.
> >
> > My humble suggestion is that we gather suggestions and, if we find none,
> > maintain the logo. Otherwise change it.
> >
> > So here is my (serious) idea for a logo that fits with the "relax" motto:
> >
> http://www.papeldeparede.etc.br/wallpapers/snoopy-e-woodstock_6591_1024x768.jpg
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 12:00 PM, Giovanni P <fi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/Et_selskab_af_danske_kunstnere_i_Rom.jpg
> >> is this offensive?
> >>
> >> On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 11:59 AM, Bryan Green <db...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I would assume we would discuss it as we are now.
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 6:58 AM, Giovanni P <fi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> If I declare myself offended (for no reason, because there is
> >>>> absolutely no
> >>>> reason to be offended by the present logo) by the next logo you come
> up
> >>>> with, will you change it?
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 11:51 AM, Alexander Shorin <kx...@gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> > On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 4:33 PM, Bryan Green <
> dbryan.green@gmail.com>
> >>>> > wrote:
> >>>> > > It may not offend you, but apparently it offends some people.
> This
> >>>> is a
> >>>> > > bad thing for a logo. I think this is why it is rare for the
> human
> >>>> > figure
> >>>> > > to be common in most logos. Most keep logos very simple.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > There are 7 billion people on Earth - you'll never fit them all.
> >>>> > Let's move away from abstract angry offended people to concrete ones
> >>>> > with their own arguments why they thought that logo hits them and
> >>>> > discuss their problem personally. Anyone around? Joan?
> >>>> > Otherwise this is counterproductive discussion about edge cases
> which
> >>>> > will never happens.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > --
> >>>> > ,,,^..^,,,
> >>>> >
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Improved CouchDB logo / tagline / project name
Posted by "Rohrdanz,Mary A" <MA...@mdanderson.org>.
I have no problems with the logo as is.
But no joke: I was using CouchDB for a few months before I realized it was
a man on a couch, and not a piece of abstract art. lolz.
On 10/28/14, 10:39 AM, "Miles Fidelman" <mf...@meetinghouse.net> wrote:
>Which suggests that the new logo should keep the couch, but replace the
>man with a cute animal - in keeping with open source tradition. :-)
>
>Cat, Koala, .. a few appropriate animals come to mind.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Miles Fidelman
>
>Alexander Shorin wrote:
>> The "Time to Relax" is not only tagline, but also the goal to aim for.
>> If you are not relaxed with CouchDB, probably, you just doing
>> something wrong or should file an issue about (:
>> --
>> ,,,^..^,,,
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 6:26 PM, Eric B <eb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 11:03 AM, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>> A minority of individuals suggested that it may be time to change
>>>> the logo, the tagline and even the project name for various reasons.
>>>> If we're considering any of these steps, now would be the time to
>>>> figure that out -- prior to the impending 2.0 beta and release.
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to steer discussion towards these points and away from
>>>> the topic of logo acceptability -- it's become clear to me that
>>>> there is no further useful discussion possible on that topic.
>>>>
>>> As a fairly newcomer to CouchDB, I'd like to contribute by giving my
>>> viewpoint and insight into the discussion to date. To be clear, I am
>>>not
>>> personally offended by the logo. But to be entirely fair (and
>>>hopefully
>>> no one will take offense at this), I don't particularly care too much
>>>about
>>> it either. I don't make technical decisions based on graphics, but
>>>rather
>>> what the product provides.
>>>
>>> To that extent, I chose CouchDB due to its feature set, community, and
>>> platform availability. I wanted something that I could use in a
>>> distributed manner without too much hassles. CouchDB offered me a
>>>solution
>>> for this. The fact that the tag line was "CouchDB and Relax" really
>>>meant
>>> nothing to me either.
>>>
>>> Coming from a RDBMS background, already moving to NoSQL has its
>>>challenges
>>> in design and approach. Using CouchDB as a persistence engine (and
>>>not an
>>> actual web-server) to a Java application means that it's HTTP API
>>>doesn't
>>> really impact me either (all access is wrapped in a library).
>>>
>>> So from my perspective, the tagline "...Relax..." isn't really even
>>> accurate. If anything, CouchDB has less "standard" support in Java
>>>(ie:
>>> no Spring libraries, etc) and makes it less "relaxing" than something
>>>like
>>> MongoDB which has a big Spring following.
>>>
>>> If the goal is to rethink the name/logo/tagline, then perhaps a more
>>> appropriate approach would be to target its feature set: (random
>>>examples
>>> purely to illustrate my point): "Easy NoSQL for the web" or
>>>"Distributed
>>> NoSQL made simple" or something more directed.
>>>
>>> But the primary goal, I believe, is to first decide whether anything
>>> _needs_ to be changed. As others have already mentioned, something
>>>will
>>> always offend someone somewhere, in some different language or culture.
>>> That being said, the question should rather be if the
>>>product/community has
>>> outgrown the tagline, and if so, what a new tagline/name should be.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Eric
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Improved CouchDB logo / tagline / project name
Posted by Andy Wenk <an...@apache.org>.
Koalas are slow ....
On 28 October 2014 16:48, Alexander Shorin <kx...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 6:39 PM, Miles Fidelman
> <mf...@meetinghouse.net> wrote:
> > Which suggests that the new logo should keep the couch, but replace the
> man
> > with a cute animal - in keeping with open source tradition. :-)
> >
> > Cat, Koala, .. a few appropriate animals come to mind.
>
> Koalas are SO relaxed! (: Great idea!
>
> http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/00/49/5d/00495db6cdf59469ba20aa726ea36de5.jpg
>
> http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/de/e0/f3/dee0f371151747049080c9ec67052cef.jpg
>
> http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/7b/33/33/7b33338a1b0c7da164e7d4cb6f5d6926.jpg
>
> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cOtUomW0Ee4/TtH-qOZSFmI/AAAAAAAAD38/lY03mrE1RBI/s1600/koala.jpeg
>
> http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/5d/84/ca/5d84caa056efe4032ee424c2730a0f90.jpg
>
> --
> ,,,^..^,,,
>
--
Andy Wenk
Hamburg - Germany
RockIt!
GPG fingerprint: C044 8322 9E12 1483 4FEC 9452 B65D 6BE3 9ED3 9588
https://people.apache.org/keys/committer/andywenk.asc
Re: [DISCUSS] Improved CouchDB logo / tagline / project name
Posted by Alexander Shorin <kx...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 6:39 PM, Miles Fidelman
<mf...@meetinghouse.net> wrote:
> Which suggests that the new logo should keep the couch, but replace the man
> with a cute animal - in keeping with open source tradition. :-)
>
> Cat, Koala, .. a few appropriate animals come to mind.
Koalas are SO relaxed! (: Great idea!
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/00/49/5d/00495db6cdf59469ba20aa726ea36de5.jpg
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/de/e0/f3/dee0f371151747049080c9ec67052cef.jpg
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/7b/33/33/7b33338a1b0c7da164e7d4cb6f5d6926.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cOtUomW0Ee4/TtH-qOZSFmI/AAAAAAAAD38/lY03mrE1RBI/s1600/koala.jpeg
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/5d/84/ca/5d84caa056efe4032ee424c2730a0f90.jpg
--
,,,^..^,,,
Re: [DISCUSS] Improved CouchDB logo / tagline / project name
Posted by Miles Fidelman <mf...@meetinghouse.net>.
Which suggests that the new logo should keep the couch, but replace the
man with a cute animal - in keeping with open source tradition. :-)
Cat, Koala, .. a few appropriate animals come to mind.
Cheers,
Miles Fidelman
Alexander Shorin wrote:
> The "Time to Relax" is not only tagline, but also the goal to aim for.
> If you are not relaxed with CouchDB, probably, you just doing
> something wrong or should file an issue about (:
> --
> ,,,^..^,,,
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 6:26 PM, Eric B <eb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 11:03 AM, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> A minority of individuals suggested that it may be time to change
>>> the logo, the tagline and even the project name for various reasons.
>>> If we're considering any of these steps, now would be the time to
>>> figure that out -- prior to the impending 2.0 beta and release.
>>>
>>> I'd like to steer discussion towards these points and away from
>>> the topic of logo acceptability -- it's become clear to me that
>>> there is no further useful discussion possible on that topic.
>>>
>> As a fairly newcomer to CouchDB, I'd like to contribute by giving my
>> viewpoint and insight into the discussion to date. To be clear, I am not
>> personally offended by the logo. But to be entirely fair (and hopefully
>> no one will take offense at this), I don't particularly care too much about
>> it either. I don't make technical decisions based on graphics, but rather
>> what the product provides.
>>
>> To that extent, I chose CouchDB due to its feature set, community, and
>> platform availability. I wanted something that I could use in a
>> distributed manner without too much hassles. CouchDB offered me a solution
>> for this. The fact that the tag line was "CouchDB and Relax" really meant
>> nothing to me either.
>>
>> Coming from a RDBMS background, already moving to NoSQL has its challenges
>> in design and approach. Using CouchDB as a persistence engine (and not an
>> actual web-server) to a Java application means that it's HTTP API doesn't
>> really impact me either (all access is wrapped in a library).
>>
>> So from my perspective, the tagline "...Relax..." isn't really even
>> accurate. If anything, CouchDB has less "standard" support in Java (ie:
>> no Spring libraries, etc) and makes it less "relaxing" than something like
>> MongoDB which has a big Spring following.
>>
>> If the goal is to rethink the name/logo/tagline, then perhaps a more
>> appropriate approach would be to target its feature set: (random examples
>> purely to illustrate my point): "Easy NoSQL for the web" or "Distributed
>> NoSQL made simple" or something more directed.
>>
>> But the primary goal, I believe, is to first decide whether anything
>> _needs_ to be changed. As others have already mentioned, something will
>> always offend someone somewhere, in some different language or culture.
>> That being said, the question should rather be if the product/community has
>> outgrown the tagline, and if so, what a new tagline/name should be.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Eric
Re: [DISCUSS] Improved CouchDB logo / tagline / project name
Posted by Alexander Shorin <kx...@gmail.com>.
The "Time to Relax" is not only tagline, but also the goal to aim for.
If you are not relaxed with CouchDB, probably, you just doing
something wrong or should file an issue about (:
--
,,,^..^,,,
On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 6:26 PM, Eric B <eb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 11:03 AM, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> A minority of individuals suggested that it may be time to change
>> the logo, the tagline and even the project name for various reasons.
>> If we're considering any of these steps, now would be the time to
>> figure that out -- prior to the impending 2.0 beta and release.
>>
>> I'd like to steer discussion towards these points and away from
>> the topic of logo acceptability -- it's become clear to me that
>> there is no further useful discussion possible on that topic.
>>
>
> As a fairly newcomer to CouchDB, I'd like to contribute by giving my
> viewpoint and insight into the discussion to date. To be clear, I am not
> personally offended by the logo. But to be entirely fair (and hopefully
> no one will take offense at this), I don't particularly care too much about
> it either. I don't make technical decisions based on graphics, but rather
> what the product provides.
>
> To that extent, I chose CouchDB due to its feature set, community, and
> platform availability. I wanted something that I could use in a
> distributed manner without too much hassles. CouchDB offered me a solution
> for this. The fact that the tag line was "CouchDB and Relax" really meant
> nothing to me either.
>
> Coming from a RDBMS background, already moving to NoSQL has its challenges
> in design and approach. Using CouchDB as a persistence engine (and not an
> actual web-server) to a Java application means that it's HTTP API doesn't
> really impact me either (all access is wrapped in a library).
>
> So from my perspective, the tagline "...Relax..." isn't really even
> accurate. If anything, CouchDB has less "standard" support in Java (ie:
> no Spring libraries, etc) and makes it less "relaxing" than something like
> MongoDB which has a big Spring following.
>
> If the goal is to rethink the name/logo/tagline, then perhaps a more
> appropriate approach would be to target its feature set: (random examples
> purely to illustrate my point): "Easy NoSQL for the web" or "Distributed
> NoSQL made simple" or something more directed.
>
> But the primary goal, I believe, is to first decide whether anything
> _needs_ to be changed. As others have already mentioned, something will
> always offend someone somewhere, in some different language or culture.
> That being said, the question should rather be if the product/community has
> outgrown the tagline, and if so, what a new tagline/name should be.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Eric
Re: [DISCUSS] Improved CouchDB logo / tagline / project name
Posted by Eric B <eb...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 11:03 AM, Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org> wrote:
> A minority of individuals suggested that it may be time to change
> the logo, the tagline and even the project name for various reasons.
> If we're considering any of these steps, now would be the time to
> figure that out -- prior to the impending 2.0 beta and release.
>
> I'd like to steer discussion towards these points and away from
> the topic of logo acceptability -- it's become clear to me that
> there is no further useful discussion possible on that topic.
>
As a fairly newcomer to CouchDB, I'd like to contribute by giving my
viewpoint and insight into the discussion to date. To be clear, I am not
personally offended by the logo. But to be entirely fair (and hopefully
no one will take offense at this), I don't particularly care too much about
it either. I don't make technical decisions based on graphics, but rather
what the product provides.
To that extent, I chose CouchDB due to its feature set, community, and
platform availability. I wanted something that I could use in a
distributed manner without too much hassles. CouchDB offered me a solution
for this. The fact that the tag line was "CouchDB and Relax" really meant
nothing to me either.
Coming from a RDBMS background, already moving to NoSQL has its challenges
in design and approach. Using CouchDB as a persistence engine (and not an
actual web-server) to a Java application means that it's HTTP API doesn't
really impact me either (all access is wrapped in a library).
So from my perspective, the tagline "...Relax..." isn't really even
accurate. If anything, CouchDB has less "standard" support in Java (ie:
no Spring libraries, etc) and makes it less "relaxing" than something like
MongoDB which has a big Spring following.
If the goal is to rethink the name/logo/tagline, then perhaps a more
appropriate approach would be to target its feature set: (random examples
purely to illustrate my point): "Easy NoSQL for the web" or "Distributed
NoSQL made simple" or something more directed.
But the primary goal, I believe, is to first decide whether anything
_needs_ to be changed. As others have already mentioned, something will
always offend someone somewhere, in some different language or culture.
That being said, the question should rather be if the product/community has
outgrown the tagline, and if so, what a new tagline/name should be.
Thanks,
Eric