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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com> on 2012/11/20 12:28:54 UTC

Sub-projects - when are they acceptable? (was Re: [VOTE] Graduate Nuvem as a sub-project under Apache Tuscany)

On 20 November 2012 11:18, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 3:01 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 6:41 AM, Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> ...Nuvem has a great synergy with Apache Tuscany, and after
>>> discussion between the two projects, we are seeking IPMC approval to allow
>>> graduation of Apache Nuvem as a sub-project under Apache Tuscany....
>>
>> Can you clarify what this means? Do all members of the Nuvem PPMC
>> become Tuscany PMC members?
>
> Bertrand, this is a great opportunity to clarify the board's attitude
> toward 'subprojects'. Ever since the campaign to dismantle umbrellas,
> I've been confused about what structures the board would find
> reasonable.

I don't speak for the board, but my opinion is that if a sub-project
is OK as long as it is actively managed by the same PMC as the parent
project.

Where I start to get worried is when a sub-project takes on a life of
its own and significant portions of the parent PMC are not interested
in the sub-project and thus fail to provide appropriate oversight. The
more sub-projects there are in a project the more likely this is to
happen.

I'm interested to hear if this is also the opinion of others and thus
I've changed the subject. In terms of Nuvem I'm interested in the
answer to Bertrands question.

Ross

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Re: Sub-projects - when are they acceptable? (was Re: [VOTE] Graduate Nuvem as a sub-project under Apache Tuscany)

Posted by Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com>.
On Tuesday, November 20, 2012, Alexei Fedotov wrote:

> This is good point of view.
>
> I think one may also take a user cases and product distribution
> perspectives into account. For example, when both projects naturally come
> in one binary release, this may be feasible to have them joined.
>
>
In this particular case, the cloud components from Nuvem would bring a lot
of extra dependencies, from the multiple supported cloud platforms, to the
core Tuscany runtime distribution, and the Community might choose to make
it a separate binary distribution, as we already do with the samples.

Thanks
--
Luciano

Sent from my iPhone


-- 
Luciano Resende
http://people.apache.org/~lresende
http://twitter.com/lresende1975
http://lresende.blogspot.com/

Re: Sub-projects - when are they acceptable? (was Re: [VOTE] Graduate Nuvem as a sub-project under Apache Tuscany)

Posted by Alexei Fedotov <al...@gmail.com>.
This is good point of view.

I think one may also take a user cases and product distribution
perspectives into account. For example, when both projects naturally come
in one binary release, this may be feasible to have them joined.

--
With best regards / с наилучшими пожеланиями,
Alexei Fedotov / Алексей Федотов,
http://dataved.ru/
+7 916 562 8095



On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 3:28 PM, Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>wrote:

> On 20 November 2012 11:18, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 3:01 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> > <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> >> On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 6:41 AM, Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>> ...Nuvem has a great synergy with Apache Tuscany, and after
> >>> discussion between the two projects, we are seeking IPMC approval to
> allow
> >>> graduation of Apache Nuvem as a sub-project under Apache Tuscany....
> >>
> >> Can you clarify what this means? Do all members of the Nuvem PPMC
> >> become Tuscany PMC members?
> >
> > Bertrand, this is a great opportunity to clarify the board's attitude
> > toward 'subprojects'. Ever since the campaign to dismantle umbrellas,
> > I've been confused about what structures the board would find
> > reasonable.
>
> I don't speak for the board, but my opinion is that if a sub-project
> is OK as long as it is actively managed by the same PMC as the parent
> project.
>
> Where I start to get worried is when a sub-project takes on a life of
> its own and significant portions of the parent PMC are not interested
> in the sub-project and thus fail to provide appropriate oversight. The
> more sub-projects there are in a project the more likely this is to
> happen.
>
> I'm interested to hear if this is also the opinion of others and thus
> I've changed the subject. In terms of Nuvem I'm interested in the
> answer to Bertrands question.
>
> Ross
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
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>

Re: Sub-projects - when are they acceptable? (was Re: [VOTE] Graduate Nuvem as a sub-project under Apache Tuscany)

Posted by Arun C Murthy <ac...@hortonworks.com>.
Could agree more with Chris and Ross.

I've seen, first hand, at Hadoop the behaviour of significant portions of the PMC not being present in one of the 3 sub-projects we have (HDFS, YARN, MapReduce) and has led to significant issues in the community and in the PMC.

Along with folks like Chris I've been very vocal about pushing the Hadoop project to break up, unfortunately there seem to be little progress to break them up. 

So, overall, please be very careful about sub-projects.

Arun

PS: Yes, as the Chair, I've flagged this to the Board.

On Nov 20, 2012, at 6:47 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote:

> Fromt he peanut gallery of someone who has participated in a number of sub-projects
> over the years (Nutch, Tika, Solr, Hadoop, etc.): I don't think they have a big place at the
> ASF. The word "project" implies "community". Sub communities == umbrella projects == 
> pain, and suffering.
> 
> OTOH, sub-"products", or the ability for a PMC to release multiple "products", like e.g., 
> like Lucene does now (Lucene-Java is a product; Solr is a product; PyLucene is a product),
> that works b/c the sets of individuals that make up those interested in the sub "products" are 
> not separate communities, they just release different portions of the software that they scratch 
> their itch on.
> 
> My 2c.
> 
> Cheers,
> Chris
> 
> On Nov 20, 2012, at 3:28 AM, Ross Gardler wrote:
> 
>> On 20 November 2012 11:18, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 3:01 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
>>> <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 6:41 AM, Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> ...Nuvem has a great synergy with Apache Tuscany, and after
>>>>> discussion between the two projects, we are seeking IPMC approval to allow
>>>>> graduation of Apache Nuvem as a sub-project under Apache Tuscany....
>>>> 
>>>> Can you clarify what this means? Do all members of the Nuvem PPMC
>>>> become Tuscany PMC members?
>>> 
>>> Bertrand, this is a great opportunity to clarify the board's attitude
>>> toward 'subprojects'. Ever since the campaign to dismantle umbrellas,
>>> I've been confused about what structures the board would find
>>> reasonable.
>> 
>> I don't speak for the board, but my opinion is that if a sub-project
>> is OK as long as it is actively managed by the same PMC as the parent
>> project.
>> 
>> Where I start to get worried is when a sub-project takes on a life of
>> its own and significant portions of the parent PMC are not interested
>> in the sub-project and thus fail to provide appropriate oversight. The
>> more sub-projects there are in a project the more likely this is to
>> happen.
>> 
>> I'm interested to hear if this is also the opinion of others and thus
>> I've changed the subject. In terms of Nuvem I'm interested in the
>> answer to Bertrands question.
>> 
>> Ross
>> 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>> 
> 
> 
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--
Arun C. Murthy
Hortonworks Inc.
http://hortonworks.com/

Re: Sub-projects - when are they acceptable? (was Re: [VOTE] Graduate Nuvem as a sub-project under Apache Tuscany)

Posted by Suresh Marru <sm...@apache.org>.
On Nov 21, 2012, at 12:19 PM, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Franklin, Matthew B.
> <mf...@mitre.org> wrote:
>> On 11/21/12 7:26 AM, "Benson Margulies" <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> ...
>>> So, permit me to ask another, related, question. It seems to me that
>>> the IPMC is concerned with the fact that a project is ready to leave,
>>> but not so much which where it is going. A proposal to form a new TLP
>>> is, I think, a straightforward question to the board, and the IPMC's
>>> action is to make a recommendation to the board.
>>> 
>>> A proposal to be integrated into an existing project is, I think,
>>> within the authority of the existing product's PMC. If Project A
>>> wishes to invite the members of Podling B to join and integrate their
>>> code, then this looks to me like it could just happen without any
>>> approval in advance from the board or even the IPMC. Voting in
>>> committers is a PMC task, voting in PMC members is a PMC task with
>>> board lazy approval, and copying (ip-cleared) code from one place in
>>> ASF source control to another is a PMC task.
>>> 
>>> I think that IPMC graduation votes in this case are a nice thing, but
>>> it seems by this logic that they are not necessary.
>>> 
>>> Does this make sense?
>> 
>> I think your statement makes sense, but I see the votes as a way for IPMC
>> members to assert that they believe all due diligence in IP clearance has
>> been performed and that a sanity check has been done as to whether or not
>> the podling is to be fully integrated into the PMC of the target project.
>> From this perspective the Incubator serves to provide a convenience to the
>> target PMC in regards to releasability of code they are assuming and as a
>> foundation preventative measure for ensuring we don't end up with massive,
>> disconnected umbrellas comprised of former incubator podlings.
> 
> I'm with Matt: the vote is still needed to state "this community/code
> can be moved into the ASF".

Since incubation is more about learning the apache way in practice, I also think IPMC will be a better position to gauge it then the target PMC, so community readiness vote by IPMC might be good to continue irrespective of the podling ends up being a TLP or a sub-project. 

Cheers,
Suresh
 


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Re: Sub-projects - when are they acceptable? (was Re: [VOTE] Graduate Nuvem as a sub-project under Apache Tuscany)

Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Franklin, Matthew B.
<mf...@mitre.org> wrote:
> On 11/21/12 7:26 AM, "Benson Margulies" <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>...
>>So, permit me to ask another, related, question. It seems to me that
>>the IPMC is concerned with the fact that a project is ready to leave,
>>but not so much which where it is going. A proposal to form a new TLP
>>is, I think, a straightforward question to the board, and the IPMC's
>>action is to make a recommendation to the board.
>>
>>A proposal to be integrated into an existing project is, I think,
>>within the authority of the existing product's PMC. If Project A
>>wishes to invite the members of Podling B to join and integrate their
>>code, then this looks to me like it could just happen without any
>>approval in advance from the board or even the IPMC. Voting in
>>committers is a PMC task, voting in PMC members is a PMC task with
>>board lazy approval, and copying (ip-cleared) code from one place in
>>ASF source control to another is a PMC task.
>>
>>I think that IPMC graduation votes in this case are a nice thing, but
>>it seems by this logic that they are not necessary.
>>
>>Does this make sense?
>
> I think your statement makes sense, but I see the votes as a way for IPMC
> members to assert that they believe all due diligence in IP clearance has
> been performed and that a sanity check has been done as to whether or not
> the podling is to be fully integrated into the PMC of the target project.
> From this perspective the Incubator serves to provide a convenience to the
> target PMC in regards to releasability of code they are assuming and as a
> foundation preventative measure for ensuring we don't end up with massive,
> disconnected umbrellas comprised of former incubator podlings.

I'm with Matt: the vote is still needed to state "this community/code
can be moved into the ASF".

And if the code is moving to an existing community, then the Board
does not need to be involved. However, I will state the recipient PMC
better issue a Board report *that month*, whether it is on their
normal reporting schedule or not. Activities like that is something
that needs to be very visible. (the Board would see it in the
Incubator report, but it should also hear from the recipient PMC)

On the general sub-project thing: I agree with the thread's seeming
consensus: one community managing several projects is fine. Separate
communities (as Arun laments about Hadoop) is a problem. On a minor
technical note: I don't believe PMCs should be slicing up their svn
access control lists. Every committer/PMC-member should be able to
change all the code under that PMC's responsibility.

Cheers,
-g

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Re: Sub-projects - when are they acceptable? (was Re: [VOTE] Graduate Nuvem as a sub-project under Apache Tuscany)

Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <rv...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 4:26 AM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So, permit me to ask another, related, question. It seems to me that
> the IPMC is concerned with the fact that a project is ready to leave,
> but not so much which where it is going. A proposal to form a new TLP
> is, I think, a straightforward question to the board, and the IPMC's
> action is to make a recommendation to the board.
>
> A proposal to be integrated into an existing project is, I think,
> within the authority of the existing product's PMC. If Project A
> wishes to invite the members of Podling B to join and integrate their
> code, then this looks to me like it could just happen without any
> approval in advance from the board or even the IPMC. Voting in
> committers is a PMC task, voting in PMC members is a PMC task with
> board lazy approval, and copying (ip-cleared) code from one place in
> ASF source control to another is a PMC task.
>
> I think that IPMC graduation votes in this case are a nice thing, but
> it seems by this logic that they are not necessary.
>
> Does this make sense?

I think you raise a very important question. In a sense, the way I see it
there has to be a joint recommendation to the board in such a case
with IPMC vouching for all the mechanics of the proposed community
(knowing the Apache Way, being capable of releases, being capable
of due diligence, etc.) and a top level PMC vouching that they do,
indeed, see a fit.

That said, I'm not quite sure how to best draft such a joint proposal.

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: Sub-projects - when are they acceptable? (was Re: [VOTE] Graduate Nuvem as a sub-project under Apache Tuscany)

Posted by "Franklin, Matthew B." <mf...@mitre.org>.
On 11/21/12 7:26 AM, "Benson Margulies" <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 5:40 AM, Ross Gardler
><rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
>> On 21 November 2012 10:36, Bertrand Delacretaz
>><bd...@apache.org>wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
>>> <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>>> > ...sub-"products", or the ability for a PMC to release multiple
>>> "products", like e.g.,
>>> > like Lucene does now (Lucene-Java is a product; Solr is a product;
>>> PyLucene is a product),
>>> > that works b/c the sets of individuals that make up those interested
>>>in
>>> the sub "products" are
>>> > not separate communities, they just release different portions of the
>>> software that they scratch
>>> > their itch on....
>>>
>>> Agreed, that's what I meant - a PMC that groups multiple communities
>>> is not good, whereas one that oversees several products is fine.
>>>
>>
>> +1 this is a good way of restating my intention too.
>>
>> Seems we have lots of agreement so far.
>
>So, permit me to ask another, related, question. It seems to me that
>the IPMC is concerned with the fact that a project is ready to leave,
>but not so much which where it is going. A proposal to form a new TLP
>is, I think, a straightforward question to the board, and the IPMC's
>action is to make a recommendation to the board.
>
>A proposal to be integrated into an existing project is, I think,
>within the authority of the existing product's PMC. If Project A
>wishes to invite the members of Podling B to join and integrate their
>code, then this looks to me like it could just happen without any
>approval in advance from the board or even the IPMC. Voting in
>committers is a PMC task, voting in PMC members is a PMC task with
>board lazy approval, and copying (ip-cleared) code from one place in
>ASF source control to another is a PMC task.
>
>I think that IPMC graduation votes in this case are a nice thing, but
>it seems by this logic that they are not necessary.
>
>Does this make sense?

I think your statement makes sense, but I see the votes as a way for IPMC
members to assert that they believe all due diligence in IP clearance has
been performed and that a sanity check has been done as to whether or not
the podling is to be fully integrated into the PMC of the target project.
>From this perspective the Incubator serves to provide a convenience to the
target PMC in regards to releasability of code they are assuming and as a
foundation preventative measure for ensuring we don't end up with massive,
disconnected umbrellas comprised of former incubator podlings.

>
>
>>
>> Ross
>>
>>
>>>
>>> -Bertrand
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ross Gardler (@rgardler)
>> Programme Leader (Open Development)
>> OpenDirective http://opendirective.com
>
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Re: Sub-projects - when are they acceptable? (was Re: [VOTE] Graduate Nuvem as a sub-project under Apache Tuscany)

Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 5:40 AM, Ross Gardler
<rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
> On 21 November 2012 10:36, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
>> <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>> > ...sub-"products", or the ability for a PMC to release multiple
>> "products", like e.g.,
>> > like Lucene does now (Lucene-Java is a product; Solr is a product;
>> PyLucene is a product),
>> > that works b/c the sets of individuals that make up those interested in
>> the sub "products" are
>> > not separate communities, they just release different portions of the
>> software that they scratch
>> > their itch on....
>>
>> Agreed, that's what I meant - a PMC that groups multiple communities
>> is not good, whereas one that oversees several products is fine.
>>
>
> +1 this is a good way of restating my intention too.
>
> Seems we have lots of agreement so far.

So, permit me to ask another, related, question. It seems to me that
the IPMC is concerned with the fact that a project is ready to leave,
but not so much which where it is going. A proposal to form a new TLP
is, I think, a straightforward question to the board, and the IPMC's
action is to make a recommendation to the board.

A proposal to be integrated into an existing project is, I think,
within the authority of the existing product's PMC. If Project A
wishes to invite the members of Podling B to join and integrate their
code, then this looks to me like it could just happen without any
approval in advance from the board or even the IPMC. Voting in
committers is a PMC task, voting in PMC members is a PMC task with
board lazy approval, and copying (ip-cleared) code from one place in
ASF source control to another is a PMC task.

I think that IPMC graduation votes in this case are a nice thing, but
it seems by this logic that they are not necessary.

Does this make sense?


>
> Ross
>
>
>>
>> -Bertrand
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Ross Gardler (@rgardler)
> Programme Leader (Open Development)
> OpenDirective http://opendirective.com

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Re: Sub-projects - when are they acceptable? (was Re: [VOTE] Graduate Nuvem as a sub-project under Apache Tuscany)

Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
On 21 November 2012 10:36, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
> <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> > ...sub-"products", or the ability for a PMC to release multiple
> "products", like e.g.,
> > like Lucene does now (Lucene-Java is a product; Solr is a product;
> PyLucene is a product),
> > that works b/c the sets of individuals that make up those interested in
> the sub "products" are
> > not separate communities, they just release different portions of the
> software that they scratch
> > their itch on....
>
> Agreed, that's what I meant - a PMC that groups multiple communities
> is not good, whereas one that oversees several products is fine.
>

+1 this is a good way of restating my intention too.

Seems we have lots of agreement so far.

Ross


>
> -Bertrand
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
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>


-- 
Ross Gardler (@rgardler)
Programme Leader (Open Development)
OpenDirective http://opendirective.com

Re: Sub-projects - when are they acceptable? (was Re: [VOTE] Graduate Nuvem as a sub-project under Apache Tuscany)

Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
<ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> ...sub-"products", or the ability for a PMC to release multiple "products", like e.g.,
> like Lucene does now (Lucene-Java is a product; Solr is a product; PyLucene is a product),
> that works b/c the sets of individuals that make up those interested in the sub "products" are
> not separate communities, they just release different portions of the software that they scratch
> their itch on....

Agreed, that's what I meant - a PMC that groups multiple communities
is not good, whereas one that oversees several products is fine.

-Bertrand

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Re: Sub-projects - when are they acceptable? (was Re: [VOTE] Graduate Nuvem as a sub-project under Apache Tuscany)

Posted by "Mattmann, Chris A (388J)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>.
Fromt he peanut gallery of someone who has participated in a number of sub-projects
over the years (Nutch, Tika, Solr, Hadoop, etc.): I don't think they have a big place at the
ASF. The word "project" implies "community". Sub communities == umbrella projects == 
pain, and suffering.

OTOH, sub-"products", or the ability for a PMC to release multiple "products", like e.g., 
like Lucene does now (Lucene-Java is a product; Solr is a product; PyLucene is a product),
that works b/c the sets of individuals that make up those interested in the sub "products" are 
not separate communities, they just release different portions of the software that they scratch 
their itch on.

My 2c.

Cheers,
Chris

On Nov 20, 2012, at 3:28 AM, Ross Gardler wrote:

> On 20 November 2012 11:18, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 3:01 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
>> <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 6:41 AM, Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> ...Nuvem has a great synergy with Apache Tuscany, and after
>>>> discussion between the two projects, we are seeking IPMC approval to allow
>>>> graduation of Apache Nuvem as a sub-project under Apache Tuscany....
>>> 
>>> Can you clarify what this means? Do all members of the Nuvem PPMC
>>> become Tuscany PMC members?
>> 
>> Bertrand, this is a great opportunity to clarify the board's attitude
>> toward 'subprojects'. Ever since the campaign to dismantle umbrellas,
>> I've been confused about what structures the board would find
>> reasonable.
> 
> I don't speak for the board, but my opinion is that if a sub-project
> is OK as long as it is actively managed by the same PMC as the parent
> project.
> 
> Where I start to get worried is when a sub-project takes on a life of
> its own and significant portions of the parent PMC are not interested
> in the sub-project and thus fail to provide appropriate oversight. The
> more sub-projects there are in a project the more likely this is to
> happen.
> 
> I'm interested to hear if this is also the opinion of others and thus
> I've changed the subject. In terms of Nuvem I'm interested in the
> answer to Bertrands question.
> 
> Ross
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> 


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Re: Sub-projects - when are they acceptable? (was Re: [VOTE] Graduate Nuvem as a sub-project under Apache Tuscany)

Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 12:28 PM, Ross Gardler
<rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
> ...Where I start to get worried is when a sub-project takes on a life of
> its own and significant portions of the parent PMC are not interested
> in the sub-project...

I didn't notice this new thread, but my reply in the other one matches this ;-)

-Bertrand

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