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Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by Andreas Säger <vi...@t-online.de> on 2012/10/25 20:24:56 UTC
Apache and ODF
Hi,
Today my wife got her new Kindle which comes with a document viewer
based on Apache Freetype for the rendering job and Apache POI which is a
Java library to parse Microsoft documents.
It handles doc(x)/xls(x)/ppt(x) but no ODF. Although I am not deeply
involved in this project, I feel somewhat embarrassed and alarmed
because in the year 2012 the Apache foundation develops excellent tools
to process proprietary file formats but fails to offer anything
equivalent for the free and much simpler ODF standard.
Is my assumption correct that http://incubator.apache.org/odftoolkit/
would be the remedy to solve that problem but due to a lack of
development resources it is not ready for the job?
Greetings,
Andreas Säger
Re: Apache and ODF
Posted by Andreas Säger <vi...@t-online.de>.
Am 25.10.2012 21:14, Rob Weir wrote:
> If you search for it, you will find various solutions for converting
> ODF to EPub. But I have not seen something that does the same for
> Kindle's MOBI format.
>
For the records: Amazon does not even deliver .epub files sent via Email
to the mail account of the Kindle Fire HD (it drops attachments into the
home folder). The sender (me) gets an error mail with a list of accepted
formats.
Re: Apache and ODF
Posted by Inge Wallin <in...@lysator.liu.se>.
On Thursday, October 25, 2012 21:14:19 Rob Weir wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 2:24 PM, Andreas Säger <vi...@t-online.de> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Today my wife got her new Kindle which comes with a document viewer
> > based on Apache Freetype for the rendering job and Apache POI which is a
> > Java library to parse Microsoft documents.
> > It handles doc(x)/xls(x)/ppt(x) but no ODF. Although I am not deeply
> > involved in this project, I feel somewhat embarrassed and alarmed
> > because in the year 2012 the Apache foundation develops excellent tools
> > to process proprietary file formats but fails to offer anything
> > equivalent for the free and much simpler ODF standard.
> > Is my assumption correct that http://incubator.apache.org/odftoolkit/
> > would be the remedy to solve that problem but due to a lack of
> > development resources it is not ready for the job?
>
> The ODF Toolkit is a Java library for manipulating ODF documents. A
> classic use would be document automation, e.g., taking a document
> template and filling in data from a database, to create a new ODF
> document. It does this all without any GUI, no OpenOffice required.
> It is not an editor, not a viewer. It has no rendering, layout or
> calculation logic. It operates directly on the document file.
>
> So ordinarily I'd say that this was not appropriate for a document
> viewer, certainly not without a layout engine. But on something like
> the Kindle, with relatively simple layout requirements, the ODF
> Toolkit would be analogous to POI, and would make the task far easier.
>
> If you search for it, you will find various solutions for converting
> ODF to EPub. But I have not seen something that does the same for
> Kindle's MOBI format.
>
> -Rob
>
> > Greetings,
> > Andreas Säger
Calligra Author and Calligra Words 2.6 that will be released as beta in next
week has both a new Epub2 and a MOBI export. This is done because of the new
Calligra Author application that is aimed especially at creating ebooks.
Upcoming versions will also have Epub3 support with dynamic contents.
Re: Apache and ODF
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 3:42 AM, Fan Zheng <zh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi, All:
>
> I am confused about the UX specifications of document representation
> requirement on mobile devices, that which is the most first important point
> should be, the different device condition adaptability of layout result? or
> the fidelity of the document originally recorded?
>
Generally both modes are supported. And sometimes it varies based on
the format.
For example, PDF files are fixed-layout. So they require you to "zoom
and pan" on smaller screens. But larger screens, like Kindle DX or
iPad can show a full PDF page.
ePub and MOBI digital book files are designed to reflow according to
screen size and user's font size preferences.
But some content types, like magazines on the Kindle, can work both
ways. The user can choose to have a full-page layout that mimics the
original printed magazine. Or they can choose to have it reflow per
the screen and font size.
So ideally we would want to support both.
-Rob
> For example. An ODT format text document with several pages sized as
> "Letter", which is physically defined as 279:216 (ratio as 1.29), and user
> want to render it in a Kindle Fire, which supplies a 1024:600 (ratio as
> 1.71) screen for presenting. If we do much more care about the adaptability
> of representation, lots data recorded inside the file will be changed,
> removed or even ignored. But, if we care about the fidelity much more, we
> have to record all the document data inside, and rendering it on the
> devices dutifully. In the case, all we could do for the UX, is to give some
> adjustable scale. Such differences are meaning not only the pagination
> stuff, but also some solid data inside: thinking about a full
> page-width-size table for instance.
>
> Of cause, all the former document editor/viewer applications for desktop,
> will obey the "Keep Fidelity" as the very first rule. But what about the
> mobile device platforms?
>
> As such differences will actually lead the solution into the different
> direction, we maybe should make it clear before having a deeper discussion.
>
> Thanks.
>
> ZhengFan
>
>
> 2012/10/26 Andreas Säger <vi...@t-online.de>
>
>> Am 25.10.2012 21:14, Rob Weir wrote:
>> >
>> > If you search for it, you will find various solutions for converting
>> > ODF to EPub. But I have not seen something that does the same for
>> > Kindle's MOBI format.
>> >
>> > -Rob
>> >
>>
>> Thank you. I know about the converters. The problem is that all our
>> office documents are ODF documents. The Kindle device does not provide
>> any access to our documents until they have been converted by some other
>> device.
>>
>>
>>
Re: Apache and ODF
Posted by Fan Zheng <zh...@gmail.com>.
To Ian:
Yes, I agree with you that there shall be options for:
1. Fitful formatting way, for the READING; and
2. Uniform formatting way, for the REPRESENTATION;
Thus, the solution will lead:
A: The bad thing is that there shall be a series of formatting
specification definitions, for Kindle, Kindle Fire, Kindle Fire II, iPad,
iPad Mini, IPod touch, IPhone BLA BLA BLA....
B: The good thing is, such refining job indicating various device
platforms, could be finished inside the AOO existing framework and
formatting process, only with the external works on supplying above
definitions.
========================
To Rory:
In my point, now, we may need not to specify the exact target we are aimed
at. For although the detailed specification of every type of popular
devices we faced are different, the problems need to be clarified and
solved are commonly the same type of issue, is that "Adaptability and
Fidelity, which is bigger". Definitely, it is an UX issue, which should let
KG to be involved in; But, a given solution for the issue should be
workable for all the devices (of cause maybe including annoy duplicated
works, but should sharing the same working path and steps), whatever the
decision will be.
Ah, yes, maybe we let the new comers confused in some degree. So should we
keep on going within a new thread? Or renaming the current one?
Thanks.
ZhengFan.
2012/10/26 Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
> On Fri, 26 Oct 2012 09:58:25 +0100
> Ian Lynch <ia...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 26 October 2012 08:42, Fan Zheng <zh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi, All:
> > >
> > > I am confused about the UX specifications of document representation
> > > requirement on mobile devices, that which is the most first important
> point
> > > should be, the different device condition adaptability of layout
> result? or
> > > the fidelity of the document originally recorded?
> > >
> > > For example. An ODT format text document with several pages sized as
> > > "Letter", which is physically defined as 279:216 (ratio as 1.29), and
> user
> > > want to render it in a Kindle Fire, which supplies a 1024:600 (ratio as
> > > 1.71) screen for presenting.
> >
> >
> > Is it possible to have choices? Keep the original page aspect ratio an
> > scroll (Never used a kindle so not sure if it can scroll but obviously
> > Android on phones can!) or have a "fit to aspect" where the page is
> scaled
> > to the kindle in AOO befor export. If one of the pre-defined page
> templates
> > in AOO was the kindle page size it would be possible to reformat the
> pages
> > in a document to that size just as you can change from say A4 to US
> letter.
> > Probably for complex documents with graphics this would break some parts
> of
> > the layout but for the sort of text only novels etc mostly used on these
> > devices it should work well enough. This assumes you can export to
> > epub/mobi format in any scale but I'm assuming that will be similar to
> > export to pdf. Of course the resulting document layout could be checked
> by
> > viewing the epub/mobi output. Having an odf viewer for the mobile devices
> > would be an alternative method and probably less constrained than using
> > epub formats but it is also more work to do it. OTOH a versatile odf
> reader
> > for mobile devices could be very useful in helping establish odf as the
> > open standard for all types of document.
> >
> >
> > > If we do much more care about the adaptability
> > > of representation, lots data recorded inside the file will be changed,
> > > removed or even ignored. But, if we care about the fidelity much more,
> we
> > > have to record all the document data inside, and rendering it on the
> > > devices dutifully. In the case, all we could do for the UX, is to give
> some
> > > adjustable scale. Such differences are meaning not only the pagination
> > > stuff, but also some solid data inside: thinking about a full
> > > page-width-size table for instance.
> > >
> >
> > There can be issues with documents that have both portrait and landscape
> > pages in them on normal computer screens.
> >
> > >
> > > Of cause, all the former document editor/viewer applications for
> desktop,
> > > will obey the "Keep Fidelity" as the very first rule. But what about
> the
> > > mobile device platforms?
> > >
> > > As such differences will actually lead the solution into the different
> > > direction, we maybe should make it clear before having a deeper
> discussion.
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > ZhengFan
> > >
> > >
> > > 2012/10/26 Andreas Säger <vi...@t-online.de>
> > >
> > > > Am 25.10.2012 21:14, Rob Weir wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > If you search for it, you will find various solutions for
> converting
> > > > > ODF to EPub. But I have not seen something that does the same for
> > > > > Kindle's MOBI format.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Rob
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thank you. I know about the converters. The problem is that all our
> > > > office documents are ODF documents. The Kindle device does not
> provide
> > > > any access to our documents until they have been converted by some
> other
> > > > device.
> > > >
>
> In this discussion it is important to specify clearly which Kindle is the
> target device, as the screen ratio and pixel count varies from device to
> device with the newer Kindles. A stranger coming to this discussion might
> assume that Kindle genericly refers to the normal "reading" Kindle, with an
> 800h x 600w screen, which is the common Kindle in use.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
>
Re: Apache and ODF
Posted by Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>.
On Fri, 26 Oct 2012 09:58:25 +0100
Ian Lynch <ia...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 26 October 2012 08:42, Fan Zheng <zh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi, All:
> >
> > I am confused about the UX specifications of document representation
> > requirement on mobile devices, that which is the most first important point
> > should be, the different device condition adaptability of layout result? or
> > the fidelity of the document originally recorded?
> >
> > For example. An ODT format text document with several pages sized as
> > "Letter", which is physically defined as 279:216 (ratio as 1.29), and user
> > want to render it in a Kindle Fire, which supplies a 1024:600 (ratio as
> > 1.71) screen for presenting.
>
>
> Is it possible to have choices? Keep the original page aspect ratio and
> scroll (Never used a kindle so not sure if it can scroll but obviously
> Android on phones can!) or have a "fit to aspect" where the page is scaled
> to the kindle in AOO befor export. If one of the pre-defined page templates
> in AOO was the kindle page size it would be possible to reformat the pages
> in a document to that size just as you can change from say A4 to US letter.
> Probably for complex documents with graphics this would break some parts of
> the layout but for the sort of text only novels etc mostly used on these
> devices it should work well enough. This assumes you can export to
> epub/mobi format in any scale but I'm assuming that will be similar to
> export to pdf. Of course the resulting document layout could be checked by
> viewing the epub/mobi output. Having an odf viewer for the mobile devices
> would be an alternative method and probably less constrained than using
> epub formats but it is also more work to do it. OTOH a versatile odf reader
> for mobile devices could be very useful in helping establish odf as the
> open standard for all types of document.
>
>
> > If we do much more care about the adaptability
> > of representation, lots data recorded inside the file will be changed,
> > removed or even ignored. But, if we care about the fidelity much more, we
> > have to record all the document data inside, and rendering it on the
> > devices dutifully. In the case, all we could do for the UX, is to give some
> > adjustable scale. Such differences are meaning not only the pagination
> > stuff, but also some solid data inside: thinking about a full
> > page-width-size table for instance.
> >
>
> There can be issues with documents that have both portrait and landscape
> pages in them on normal computer screens.
>
> >
> > Of cause, all the former document editor/viewer applications for desktop,
> > will obey the "Keep Fidelity" as the very first rule. But what about the
> > mobile device platforms?
> >
> > As such differences will actually lead the solution into the different
> > direction, we maybe should make it clear before having a deeper discussion.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > ZhengFan
> >
> >
> > 2012/10/26 Andreas Säger <vi...@t-online.de>
> >
> > > Am 25.10.2012 21:14, Rob Weir wrote:
> > > >
> > > > If you search for it, you will find various solutions for converting
> > > > ODF to EPub. But I have not seen something that does the same for
> > > > Kindle's MOBI format.
> > > >
> > > > -Rob
> > > >
> > >
> > > Thank you. I know about the converters. The problem is that all our
> > > office documents are ODF documents. The Kindle device does not provide
> > > any access to our documents until they have been converted by some other
> > > device.
> > >
In this discussion it is important to specify clearly which Kindle is the target device, as the screen ratio and pixel count varies from device to device with the newer Kindles. A stranger coming to this discussion might assume that Kindle genericly refers to the normal "reading" Kindle, with an 800h x 600w screen, which is the common Kindle in use.
--
Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
Re: Apache and ODF
Posted by Ian Lynch <ia...@gmail.com>.
On 26 October 2012 08:42, Fan Zheng <zh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi, All:
>
> I am confused about the UX specifications of document representation
> requirement on mobile devices, that which is the most first important point
> should be, the different device condition adaptability of layout result? or
> the fidelity of the document originally recorded?
>
> For example. An ODT format text document with several pages sized as
> "Letter", which is physically defined as 279:216 (ratio as 1.29), and user
> want to render it in a Kindle Fire, which supplies a 1024:600 (ratio as
> 1.71) screen for presenting.
Is it possible to have choices? Keep the original page aspect ratio and
scroll (Never used a kindle so not sure if it can scroll but obviously
Android on phones can!) or have a "fit to aspect" where the page is scaled
to the kindle in AOO befor export. If one of the pre-defined page templates
in AOO was the kindle page size it would be possible to reformat the pages
in a document to that size just as you can change from say A4 to US letter.
Probably for complex documents with graphics this would break some parts of
the layout but for the sort of text only novels etc mostly used on these
devices it should work well enough. This assumes you can export to
epub/mobi format in any scale but I'm assuming that will be similar to
export to pdf. Of course the resulting document layout could be checked by
viewing the epub/mobi output. Having an odf viewer for the mobile devices
would be an alternative method and probably less constrained than using
epub formats but it is also more work to do it. OTOH a versatile odf reader
for mobile devices could be very useful in helping establish odf as the
open standard for all types of document.
> If we do much more care about the adaptability
> of representation, lots data recorded inside the file will be changed,
> removed or even ignored. But, if we care about the fidelity much more, we
> have to record all the document data inside, and rendering it on the
> devices dutifully. In the case, all we could do for the UX, is to give some
> adjustable scale. Such differences are meaning not only the pagination
> stuff, but also some solid data inside: thinking about a full
> page-width-size table for instance.
>
There can be issues with documents that have both portrait and landscape
pages in them on normal computer screens.
>
> Of cause, all the former document editor/viewer applications for desktop,
> will obey the "Keep Fidelity" as the very first rule. But what about the
> mobile device platforms?
>
> As such differences will actually lead the solution into the different
> direction, we maybe should make it clear before having a deeper discussion.
>
> Thanks.
>
> ZhengFan
>
>
> 2012/10/26 Andreas Säger <vi...@t-online.de>
>
> > Am 25.10.2012 21:14, Rob Weir wrote:
> > >
> > > If you search for it, you will find various solutions for converting
> > > ODF to EPub. But I have not seen something that does the same for
> > > Kindle's MOBI format.
> > >
> > > -Rob
> > >
> >
> > Thank you. I know about the converters. The problem is that all our
> > office documents are ODF documents. The Kindle device does not provide
> > any access to our documents until they have been converted by some other
> > device.
> >
> >
> >
>
--
Ian
Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ)
www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940
The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth,
Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and
Wales.
Re: Apache and ODF
Posted by Fan Zheng <zh...@gmail.com>.
Hi, All:
I am confused about the UX specifications of document representation
requirement on mobile devices, that which is the most first important point
should be, the different device condition adaptability of layout result? or
the fidelity of the document originally recorded?
For example. An ODT format text document with several pages sized as
"Letter", which is physically defined as 279:216 (ratio as 1.29), and user
want to render it in a Kindle Fire, which supplies a 1024:600 (ratio as
1.71) screen for presenting. If we do much more care about the adaptability
of representation, lots data recorded inside the file will be changed,
removed or even ignored. But, if we care about the fidelity much more, we
have to record all the document data inside, and rendering it on the
devices dutifully. In the case, all we could do for the UX, is to give some
adjustable scale. Such differences are meaning not only the pagination
stuff, but also some solid data inside: thinking about a full
page-width-size table for instance.
Of cause, all the former document editor/viewer applications for desktop,
will obey the "Keep Fidelity" as the very first rule. But what about the
mobile device platforms?
As such differences will actually lead the solution into the different
direction, we maybe should make it clear before having a deeper discussion.
Thanks.
ZhengFan
2012/10/26 Andreas Säger <vi...@t-online.de>
> Am 25.10.2012 21:14, Rob Weir wrote:
> >
> > If you search for it, you will find various solutions for converting
> > ODF to EPub. But I have not seen something that does the same for
> > Kindle's MOBI format.
> >
> > -Rob
> >
>
> Thank you. I know about the converters. The problem is that all our
> office documents are ODF documents. The Kindle device does not provide
> any access to our documents until they have been converted by some other
> device.
>
>
>
Re: Apache and ODF
Posted by Andreas Säger <vi...@t-online.de>.
Am 25.10.2012 21:14, Rob Weir wrote:
>
> If you search for it, you will find various solutions for converting
> ODF to EPub. But I have not seen something that does the same for
> Kindle's MOBI format.
>
> -Rob
>
Thank you. I know about the converters. The problem is that all our
office documents are ODF documents. The Kindle device does not provide
any access to our documents until they have been converted by some other
device.
Re: Apache and ODF
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 2:24 PM, Andreas Säger <vi...@t-online.de> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Today my wife got her new Kindle which comes with a document viewer
> based on Apache Freetype for the rendering job and Apache POI which is a
> Java library to parse Microsoft documents.
> It handles doc(x)/xls(x)/ppt(x) but no ODF. Although I am not deeply
> involved in this project, I feel somewhat embarrassed and alarmed
> because in the year 2012 the Apache foundation develops excellent tools
> to process proprietary file formats but fails to offer anything
> equivalent for the free and much simpler ODF standard.
> Is my assumption correct that http://incubator.apache.org/odftoolkit/
> would be the remedy to solve that problem but due to a lack of
> development resources it is not ready for the job?
>
The ODF Toolkit is a Java library for manipulating ODF documents. A
classic use would be document automation, e.g., taking a document
template and filling in data from a database, to create a new ODF
document. It does this all without any GUI, no OpenOffice required.
It is not an editor, not a viewer. It has no rendering, layout or
calculation logic. It operates directly on the document file.
So ordinarily I'd say that this was not appropriate for a document
viewer, certainly not without a layout engine. But on something like
the Kindle, with relatively simple layout requirements, the ODF
Toolkit would be analogous to POI, and would make the task far easier.
If you search for it, you will find various solutions for converting
ODF to EPub. But I have not seen something that does the same for
Kindle's MOBI format.
-Rob
> Greetings,
> Andreas Säger
>
Re: Apache and ODF
Posted by Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 8:21 PM, Alki Nea <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Greetings,
> I wrote a free converter that takes an OpenOffice document (well,
> LibreOffice)
> and converts it to Kindle format.
> It's impossible to handle everything from the ODT format, as kindles are
> more
> restrictive, so don't expect a 100% perfect conversion.
> You can get it here: http://soft.alkinea.net
> It uses kindlegen as the last step in the conversion, to ensure a better
> compatibility with all kindles and future Amazon changes.
> It's still in beta, but it's rather stable now.
> Hope it helps.
> Alki
>
>
>
Thanks for the information Alki. I'm sure some of our users will be
interested.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MzK
“How wrong is it for a woman to expect the man to build the world
she wants, rather than to create it herself?”
-- Anais Nin
Re: Apache and ODF
Posted by Alki Nea <al...@gmail.com>.
Greetings,
I wrote a free converter that takes an OpenOffice document (well, LibreOffice)
and converts it to Kindle format.
It's impossible to handle everything from the ODT format, as kindles are more
restrictive, so don't expect a 100% perfect conversion.
You can get it here: http://soft.alkinea.net
It uses kindlegen as the last step in the conversion, to ensure a better
compatibility with all kindles and future Amazon changes.
It's still in beta, but it's rather stable now.
Hope it helps.
Alki
Re: Apache and ODF
Posted by Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>.
On Thu, 25 Oct 2012 11:38:25 -0700
Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
> As a member of the Apache POI and OpenOffice PMCs. The answer is yes ODF toolkit might be the correct approach. The mentors on that podling Yegor and Nick are key members of the POI project. They will both be at ApacheCon EU.
>
> Regards,
> Dave
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Oct 25, 2012, at 11:24 AM, Andreas Säger <vi...@t-online.de> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Today my wife got her new Kindle which comes with a document viewer
> > based on Apache Freetype for the rendering job and Apache POI which is a
> > Java library to parse Microsoft documents.
> > It handles doc(x)/xls(x)/ppt(x) but no ODF. Although I am not deeply
> > involved in this project, I feel somewhat embarrassed and alarmed
> > because in the year 2012 the Apache foundation develops excellent tools
> > to process proprietary file formats but fails to offer anything
> > equivalent for the free and much simpler ODF standard.
> > Is my assumption correct that http://incubator.apache.org/odftoolkit/
> > would be the remedy to solve that problem but due to a lack of
> > development resources it is not ready for the job?
> >
> > Greetings,
> > Andreas Säger
> >
>
As an immediate work-around, Calibre will convert .odf files to almost every ebook format; its formatting is under user control. Admittedly it would be good if OpenOffice could directly support at least the more frequent ebook formats, without having to rely on an extension to do so. I remember that there is such an extension, but hae no time to look for the link just now.
--
Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
Re: Apache and ODF
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
As a member of the Apache POI and OpenOffice PMCs. The answer is yes ODF toolkit might be the correct approach. The mentors on that podling Yegor and Nick are key members of the POI project. They will both be at ApacheCon EU.
Regards,
Dave
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 25, 2012, at 11:24 AM, Andreas Säger <vi...@t-online.de> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Today my wife got her new Kindle which comes with a document viewer
> based on Apache Freetype for the rendering job and Apache POI which is a
> Java library to parse Microsoft documents.
> It handles doc(x)/xls(x)/ppt(x) but no ODF. Although I am not deeply
> involved in this project, I feel somewhat embarrassed and alarmed
> because in the year 2012 the Apache foundation develops excellent tools
> to process proprietary file formats but fails to offer anything
> equivalent for the free and much simpler ODF standard.
> Is my assumption correct that http://incubator.apache.org/odftoolkit/
> would be the remedy to solve that problem but due to a lack of
> development resources it is not ready for the job?
>
> Greetings,
> Andreas Säger
>