You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to apachecon-discuss@apache.org by Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.com> on 2012/09/12 02:52:09 UTC
ACNA pricing [was:apachecon eu speaker subsidies]
These ACNA prices aren't yet finalized, but the current plans would have student places at $595/$595, individual places at $795/$995 and corporate places at $995/$1295 early bird/regular. I understand these are substantially lower than last year's prices. There may also be "supersaver" tickets at somewhat lower prices than early bird available for a relatively short period at the beginning of the registration period.
There is also a substantial amount in the budget for committer discounts and speaker support, but we have not yet finalized arrangements with the Foundation as to how to apply those price reductions.
regards
Steve
On Sep 11, 2012, at 6:03 PM, Nóirín Plunkett wrote:
> Apologies, I obviously got confused with all the EU info that was
> going around in USD!
>
> Can you share with us the planned ticket prices, so we at least have
> some idea what we're arguing over? :-)
>
> Thanks,
>
> Noirin
>
> On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 3:52 AM, Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.com> wrote:
>> Of course it's no longer obvious, out of context, that you and I are discussing the ApacheCon NA costs and prices.
>>
>> I don't ever remember sharing that information with anyone in the ASF - though the contract makes certain stipulations about post-conference disclosure, which we naturally intend to comply with.
>>
>> regards
>> Steve
>>
>> On Sep 11, 2012, at 1:12 AM, Nóirín Plunkett wrote:
>>
>>> A quick search of my email is failing to turn up the planned
>>> costs/budget sheet.
>>
>> --
>> Steve Holden steve@holdenweb.com, Holden Web, LLC http://holdenweb.com/
>> Python classes (and much more) through the web http://oreillyschool.com/
>> Conferences and technical event management at http://theopenbastion.com/
>> Next: DjangoCon US Sep 6-8, Washington DC http://djangocon.us/
>>
>>
>>
--
Steve Holden steve@holdenweb.com, Holden Web, LLC http://holdenweb.com/
Python classes (and much more) through the web http://oreillyschool.com/
Conferences and technical event management at http://theopenbastion.com/
Next: DjangoCon US Sep 6-8, Washington DC http://djangocon.us/
Re: ACNA pricing [was:apachecon eu speaker subsidies]
Posted by Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.com>.
"Individual" tickets are for people paying their own way, and for employees of small (<= 10 people) companies. Government and corporate employees should purchase the "corporate" tickets.
regards
Steve
On Sep 12, 2012, at 1:13 AM, Marcel Offermans wrote:
> What is the difference between "individual" and "corporate" tickets?
>
--
Steve Holden steve@holdenweb.com, Holden Web, LLC http://holdenweb.com/
Python classes (and much more) through the web http://oreillyschool.com/
Conferences and technical event management at http://theopenbastion.com/
Next: DjangoCon US Sep 6-8, Washington DC http://djangocon.us/
Re: ACNA pricing [was:apachecon eu speaker subsidies]
Posted by Marcel Offermans <ma...@luminis.nl>.
What is the difference between "individual" and "corporate" tickets?
On Sep 12, 2012, at 2:52 AM, Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.com> wrote:
> These ACNA prices aren't yet finalized, but the current plans would have student places at $595/$595, individual places at $795/$995 and corporate places at $995/$1295 early bird/regular. I understand these are substantially lower than last year's prices. There may also be "supersaver" tickets at somewhat lower prices than early bird available for a relatively short period at the beginning of the registration period.
>
> There is also a substantial amount in the budget for committer discounts and speaker support, but we have not yet finalized arrangements with the Foundation as to how to apply those price reductions.
>
> regards
> Steve
>
> On Sep 11, 2012, at 6:03 PM, Nóirín Plunkett wrote:
>
>> Apologies, I obviously got confused with all the EU info that was
>> going around in USD!
>>
>> Can you share with us the planned ticket prices, so we at least have
>> some idea what we're arguing over? :-)
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Noirin
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 3:52 AM, Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.com> wrote:
>>> Of course it's no longer obvious, out of context, that you and I are discussing the ApacheCon NA costs and prices.
>>>
>>> I don't ever remember sharing that information with anyone in the ASF - though the contract makes certain stipulations about post-conference disclosure, which we naturally intend to comply with.
>>>
>>> regards
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> On Sep 11, 2012, at 1:12 AM, Nóirín Plunkett wrote:
>>>
>>>> A quick search of my email is failing to turn up the planned
>>>> costs/budget sheet.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Steve Holden steve@holdenweb.com, Holden Web, LLC http://holdenweb.com/
>>> Python classes (and much more) through the web http://oreillyschool.com/
>>> Conferences and technical event management at http://theopenbastion.com/
>>> Next: DjangoCon US Sep 6-8, Washington DC http://djangocon.us/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
> --
> Steve Holden steve@holdenweb.com, Holden Web, LLC http://holdenweb.com/
> Python classes (and much more) through the web http://oreillyschool.com/
> Conferences and technical event management at http://theopenbastion.com/
> Next: DjangoCon US Sep 6-8, Washington DC http://djangocon.us/
>
>
>
Re: ACNA pricing [was:apachecon eu speaker subsidies]
Posted by Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.com>.
On Sep 12, 2012, at 3:43 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:37 AM, Marcel Offermans
> <ma...@luminis.nl> wrote:
>> ...The "problem" I have with the distinction between individuals and corporations is
>> that Apache has always been all about individuals. Companies cannot even join.
>> Therefore I think it would be strange to suddenly make such a distinction for ACNA
>> and I'm curious what others think about this....
>
> I think that would look much better if that was presented in the opposite way:
>
> regular admission price $N
>
> discounted admission for employees of small companies and independents
> $M ( < N )
>
> -Bertrand
That's because you are smarter than me! Thanks.
regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden steve@holdenweb.com, Holden Web, LLC http://holdenweb.com/
Python classes (and much more) through the web http://oreillyschool.com/
Conferences and technical event management at http://theopenbastion.com/
Next: DjangoCon US Sep 6-8, Washington DC http://djangocon.us/
Re: ACNA pricing [was:apachecon eu speaker subsidies]
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:37 AM, Marcel Offermans
<ma...@luminis.nl> wrote:
> ...The "problem" I have with the distinction between individuals and corporations is
> that Apache has always been all about individuals. Companies cannot even join.
> Therefore I think it would be strange to suddenly make such a distinction for ACNA
> and I'm curious what others think about this....
I think that would look much better if that was presented in the opposite way:
regular admission price $N
discounted admission for employees of small companies and independents
$M ( < N )
-Bertrand
Re: ACNA pricing [was:apachecon eu speaker subsidies]
Posted by Marcel Offermans <ma...@luminis.nl>.
On Sep 12, 2012, at 9:44 AM, Nóirín Plunkett <no...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 12:37 AM, Marcel Offermans
> <ma...@luminis.nl> wrote:
>> On Sep 12, 2012, at 9:20 AM, Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.com> wrote:
>>> On Sep 12, 2012, at 2:48 AM, Nóirín Plunkett wrote:
>>>> On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 11:39 PM, Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sep 12, 2012, at 2:27 AM, Nóirín Plunkett wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Can you give us a ballpark for what you expect committer & speaker
>>>>>> tickets to cost, or what the options look like?
>>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, we just haven't got that far down the road yet.
>>>>
>>>> No worries. It's just a bit hard to have a reasonable discussion
>>>> without that :-)
>>>>
>>>> FWIW, I was surprised at the corporate level tickets: especially when
>>>> there's an individual level, I would have thought the corporate could
>>>> go up a little higher. If a measured increase in that allowed us to
>>>> have free speaker tickets/sub-$300-committer-tickets, I would be
>>>> strongly in favour.
>>>
>>> I'm sure you would, but corporations have budgets too, you know.
>>
>> The "problem" I have with the distinction between individuals and corporations is that Apache has always been all about individuals. Companies cannot even join. Therefore I think it would be strange to suddenly make such a distinction for ACNA and I'm curious what others think about this.
>>
>
> I understand your difficulty with the language, but I think the
> concept is sound. At the current levels, I can't see anyone coming to
> the conference without *some* business footing the bill (even if it's
> a sole contractor who can write it off as a business expense.)
>
> I hope that the committer tickets and speaker situation will allow
> some people to come without it being a business expense, but if not,
> it will still be an interesting experiment.
I like Bertrand's way of wording it, and I definitely agree with the concept. In fact I see it as a level in between the normal ticket price and applying for help with TAC (which I assume we will still have for ACNA).
Greetings, Marcel
Re: ACNA pricing [was:apachecon eu speaker subsidies]
Posted by Nóirín Plunkett <no...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 12:37 AM, Marcel Offermans
<ma...@luminis.nl> wrote:
> On Sep 12, 2012, at 9:20 AM, Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.com> wrote:
>> On Sep 12, 2012, at 2:48 AM, Nóirín Plunkett wrote:
>>> On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 11:39 PM, Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sep 12, 2012, at 2:27 AM, Nóirín Plunkett wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Can you give us a ballpark for what you expect committer & speaker
>>>>> tickets to cost, or what the options look like?
>>>>>
>>>> Sorry, we just haven't got that far down the road yet.
>>>
>>> No worries. It's just a bit hard to have a reasonable discussion
>>> without that :-)
>>>
>>> FWIW, I was surprised at the corporate level tickets: especially when
>>> there's an individual level, I would have thought the corporate could
>>> go up a little higher. If a measured increase in that allowed us to
>>> have free speaker tickets/sub-$300-committer-tickets, I would be
>>> strongly in favour.
>>
>> I'm sure you would, but corporations have budgets too, you know.
>
> The "problem" I have with the distinction between individuals and corporations is that Apache has always been all about individuals. Companies cannot even join. Therefore I think it would be strange to suddenly make such a distinction for ACNA and I'm curious what others think about this.
>
I understand your difficulty with the language, but I think the
concept is sound. At the current levels, I can't see anyone coming to
the conference without *some* business footing the bill (even if it's
a sole contractor who can write it off as a business expense.)
I hope that the committer tickets and speaker situation will allow
some people to come without it being a business expense, but if not,
it will still be an interesting experiment.
Noirin
Re: ACNA pricing [was:apachecon eu speaker subsidies]
Posted by Marcel Offermans <ma...@luminis.nl>.
On Sep 12, 2012, at 9:20 AM, Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.com> wrote:
> On Sep 12, 2012, at 2:48 AM, Nóirín Plunkett wrote:
>> On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 11:39 PM, Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.com> wrote:
>>> On Sep 12, 2012, at 2:27 AM, Nóirín Plunkett wrote:
>>>
>>>> Can you give us a ballpark for what you expect committer & speaker
>>>> tickets to cost, or what the options look like?
>>>>
>>> Sorry, we just haven't got that far down the road yet.
>>
>> No worries. It's just a bit hard to have a reasonable discussion
>> without that :-)
>>
>> FWIW, I was surprised at the corporate level tickets: especially when
>> there's an individual level, I would have thought the corporate could
>> go up a little higher. If a measured increase in that allowed us to
>> have free speaker tickets/sub-$300-committer-tickets, I would be
>> strongly in favour.
>
> I'm sure you would, but corporations have budgets too, you know.
The "problem" I have with the distinction between individuals and corporations is that Apache has always been all about individuals. Companies cannot even join. Therefore I think it would be strange to suddenly make such a distinction for ACNA and I'm curious what others think about this.
Greetings, Marcel
Re: ACNA pricing [was:apachecon eu speaker subsidies]
Posted by Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.com>.
On Sep 12, 2012, at 3:31 AM, Nóirín Plunkett wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 12:20 AM, Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.com> wrote:
>> On Sep 12, 2012, at 2:48 AM, Nóirín Plunkett wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> FWIW, I was surprised at the corporate level tickets: especially when
>>> there's an individual level, I would have thought the corporate could
>>> go up a little higher. If a measured increase in that allowed us to
>>> have free speaker tickets/sub-$300-committer-tickets, I would be
>>> strongly in favour.
>>>
>> I'm sure you would, but corporations have budgets too, you know.
>
> And even at a moderate increase over your figures, they'd be coming in
> well under-budget based on previous years :-)
>
> Like I said, we've been burnt before with "experiments" that turned
> into unalterable assumptions for every later year, and I'm keen that
> we avoid that here.
>
> ApacheCon must be affordable for non-corporate speakers, IMO, and it
> doesn't make sense to start arguing it much before we have real
> numbers to look at.
I'm listening ...
S
--
Steve Holden steve@holdenweb.com, Holden Web, LLC http://holdenweb.com/
Python classes (and much more) through the web http://oreillyschool.com/
Conferences and technical event management at http://theopenbastion.com/
Next: DjangoCon US Sep 6-8, Washington DC http://djangocon.us/
Re: ACNA pricing [was:apachecon eu speaker subsidies]
Posted by Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>.
On Sep 12, 2012, at 4:25 AM, Ross Gardler wrote:
> Please remember that we, ConCom agreed not to interfere with the business
> decisions of the producer.
>
> I know Noirin said that Steve should say when discussion was over. I'm not
> telling anyone to shut up, just reminding Steve that he can tell us to shut
> up. ACNA needs to be the event Steve thinks it should be.
A big +1 on that. Steve is the expert here, and we have a long history of being terrible clients when it comes to not knowing when to stop interfering with the details. (Of course, I'm talking about myself here, too.)
--
Rich Bowen
rbowen@rcbowen.com :: @rbowen
rbowen@apache.org
Re: ACNA pricing [was:apachecon eu speaker subsidies]
Posted by Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.com>.
On Sep 12, 2012, at 4:25 AM, Ross Gardler wrote:
> Please remember that we, ConCom agreed not to interfere with the business
> decisions of the producer.
>
> I know Noirin said that Steve should say when discussion was over. I'm not
> telling anyone to shut up, just reminding Steve that he can tell us to shut
> up. ACNA needs to be the event Steve thinks it should be.
>
Thanks, Ross - and everyone else who is contributing to this discussion. At current levels I can handle the input from the chattering classes ;-)
More seriously, it is our intention that ApacheCon NA continues to be recognized as a community conference (though not the "Community Edition"), even though it is being run on a commercial basis. I know from my experience founding PyCon, as do you, that the primary benefit to the Board is our assumption of risk. Anyone who wishes to regard this risk as inconsiderable might like to reflect on the $45,000 we have lost this year on canceled events. In business these risks can be weighed and accepted, but I know from personal experience they are tough for non-profits to handle.
We started PyCon because the predecessor conference (the "International Python Conference") was too expensive, and therefore inaccessible, for many of the people who were contributing to the code base. Thus it could not really lay claim to being a "community conference" because the less wealthy contributors (often the bright up-and-coming youngsters with the energy and drive to put their ideas into practice) simply didn't turn up. When they arrived at PyCon in force things acquired a new energy level, whose momentum can be discerned to this day. So I am very mindful of the need to ensure financial accessibility.
This means, however, that to do it properly we have to try and genuinely embed ourselves in the community, rather than being a predator attempting to live off it. I hear people talking all the time about "giving back." Until someone can spend a lifetime's unpaid labor writing open source code for the good of humanity and retire comfortably I prefer to pay it forward in the hope that when I am old and infirm (next year) the communities I have been part of will recognize the value of my contributions. This is, naturally, subject to abuse and other disappointments, and it's entirely possible that I will die a disillusioned idealist. If I happen to get rich from ApacheCon then I will be able to support the communities!
I know that the work I have done so far for and with the ASF has demonstrated my integrity, and I hope that the community can respond by realizing that even if we don't get things entirely right for ACNA next February we are definitely open to community input (before, during and after) about how to improve it. Even if we aren't selected to run further conferences I will be happy to pass on my experience to whoever follows. You don't produce great conferences by turning them into political footballs.
Some of this may, I understand, seem strange coming from a "businessman," but I believe it behooves us in the open source communities to accept that it's time things were run differently. ACNA will be a success for us only if the ASF meets its goals for the conference.
Input from the communities we are attempting to serve is invaluable, so we are paying close attention (despite the distractions of ongoing events). If it gets out of hand I promise to say so.
regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden steve@holdenweb.com, Holden Web, LLC http://holdenweb.com/
Python classes (and much more) through the web http://oreillyschool.com/
Conferences and technical event management at http://theopenbastion.com/
Next: Helping with ApacheCon EU (community edition) http://apachecon.eu/
Re: ACNA pricing [was:apachecon eu speaker subsidies]
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
Please remember that we, ConCom agreed not to interfere with the business
decisions of the producer.
I know Noirin said that Steve should say when discussion was over. I'm not
telling anyone to shut up, just reminding Steve that he can tell us to shut
up. ACNA needs to be the event Steve thinks it should be.
Sent from my tablet
On Sep 12, 2012 8:31 AM, "Nóirín Plunkett" <no...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 12:20 AM, Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.com>
> wrote:
> > On Sep 12, 2012, at 2:48 AM, Nóirín Plunkett wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> FWIW, I was surprised at the corporate level tickets: especially when
> >> there's an individual level, I would have thought the corporate could
> >> go up a little higher. If a measured increase in that allowed us to
> >> have free speaker tickets/sub-$300-committer-tickets, I would be
> >> strongly in favour.
> >>
> > I'm sure you would, but corporations have budgets too, you know.
>
> And even at a moderate increase over your figures, they'd be coming in
> well under-budget based on previous years :-)
>
> Like I said, we've been burnt before with "experiments" that turned
> into unalterable assumptions for every later year, and I'm keen that
> we avoid that here.
>
> ApacheCon must be affordable for non-corporate speakers, IMO, and it
> doesn't make sense to start arguing it much before we have real
> numbers to look at.
>
> Noirin
>
Re: ACNA pricing [was:apachecon eu speaker subsidies]
Posted by Nóirín Plunkett <no...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 12:20 AM, Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.com> wrote:
> On Sep 12, 2012, at 2:48 AM, Nóirín Plunkett wrote:
>
>>
>> FWIW, I was surprised at the corporate level tickets: especially when
>> there's an individual level, I would have thought the corporate could
>> go up a little higher. If a measured increase in that allowed us to
>> have free speaker tickets/sub-$300-committer-tickets, I would be
>> strongly in favour.
>>
> I'm sure you would, but corporations have budgets too, you know.
And even at a moderate increase over your figures, they'd be coming in
well under-budget based on previous years :-)
Like I said, we've been burnt before with "experiments" that turned
into unalterable assumptions for every later year, and I'm keen that
we avoid that here.
ApacheCon must be affordable for non-corporate speakers, IMO, and it
doesn't make sense to start arguing it much before we have real
numbers to look at.
Noirin
Re: ACNA pricing [was:apachecon eu speaker subsidies]
Posted by Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.com>.
On Sep 12, 2012, at 2:48 AM, Nóirín Plunkett wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 11:39 PM, Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.com> wrote:
>> On Sep 12, 2012, at 2:27 AM, Nóirín Plunkett wrote:
>>
>>> Can you give us a ballpark for what you expect committer & speaker
>>> tickets to cost, or what the options look like?
>>>
>> Sorry, we just haven't got that far down the road yet.
>
> No worries. It's just a bit hard to have a reasonable discussion
> without that :-)
>
> FWIW, I was surprised at the corporate level tickets: especially when
> there's an individual level, I would have thought the corporate could
> go up a little higher. If a measured increase in that allowed us to
> have free speaker tickets/sub-$300-committer-tickets, I would be
> strongly in favour.
>
I'm sure you would, but corporations have budgets too, you know.
> Look forward to seeing all the numbers, when they're available :-)
>
> Noirin
Me too! :-)
regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden steve@holdenweb.com, Holden Web, LLC http://holdenweb.com/
Python classes (and much more) through the web http://oreillyschool.com/
Conferences and technical event management at http://theopenbastion.com/
Next: DjangoCon US Sep 6-8, Washington DC http://djangocon.us/
Re: ACNA pricing [was:apachecon eu speaker subsidies]
Posted by Nóirín Plunkett <no...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 11:39 PM, Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.com> wrote:
> On Sep 12, 2012, at 2:27 AM, Nóirín Plunkett wrote:
>
>> Can you give us a ballpark for what you expect committer & speaker
>> tickets to cost, or what the options look like?
>>
> Sorry, we just haven't got that far down the road yet.
No worries. It's just a bit hard to have a reasonable discussion
without that :-)
FWIW, I was surprised at the corporate level tickets: especially when
there's an individual level, I would have thought the corporate could
go up a little higher. If a measured increase in that allowed us to
have free speaker tickets/sub-$300-committer-tickets, I would be
strongly in favour.
Look forward to seeing all the numbers, when they're available :-)
Noirin
Re: ACNA pricing [was:apachecon eu speaker subsidies]
Posted by Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.com>.
On Sep 12, 2012, at 2:27 AM, Nóirín Plunkett wrote:
> Can you give us a ballpark for what you expect committer & speaker
> tickets to cost, or what the options look like?
>
Sorry, we just haven't got that far down the road yet.
regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden steve@holdenweb.com, Holden Web, LLC http://holdenweb.com/
Python classes (and much more) through the web http://oreillyschool.com/
Conferences and technical event management at http://theopenbastion.com/
Next: DjangoCon US Sep 6-8, Washington DC http://djangocon.us/
Re: ACNA pricing [was:apachecon eu speaker subsidies]
Posted by Nóirín Plunkett <no...@apache.org>.
Can you give us a ballpark for what you expect committer & speaker
tickets to cost, or what the options look like?
Thanks,
Noirin
On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 5:52 PM, Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.com> wrote:
> These ACNA prices aren't yet finalized, but the current plans would have student places at $595/$595, individual places at $795/$995 and corporate places at $995/$1295 early bird/regular. I understand these are substantially lower than last year's prices. There may also be "supersaver" tickets at somewhat lower prices than early bird available for a relatively short period at the beginning of the registration period.
>
> There is also a substantial amount in the budget for committer discounts and speaker support, but we have not yet finalized arrangements with the Foundation as to how to apply those price reductions.
>
> regards
> Steve
>
> On Sep 11, 2012, at 6:03 PM, Nóirín Plunkett wrote:
>
>> Apologies, I obviously got confused with all the EU info that was
>> going around in USD!
>>
>> Can you share with us the planned ticket prices, so we at least have
>> some idea what we're arguing over? :-)
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Noirin
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 3:52 AM, Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.com> wrote:
>>> Of course it's no longer obvious, out of context, that you and I are discussing the ApacheCon NA costs and prices.
>>>
>>> I don't ever remember sharing that information with anyone in the ASF - though the contract makes certain stipulations about post-conference disclosure, which we naturally intend to comply with.
>>>
>>> regards
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> On Sep 11, 2012, at 1:12 AM, Nóirín Plunkett wrote:
>>>
>>>> A quick search of my email is failing to turn up the planned
>>>> costs/budget sheet.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Steve Holden steve@holdenweb.com, Holden Web, LLC http://holdenweb.com/
>>> Python classes (and much more) through the web http://oreillyschool.com/
>>> Conferences and technical event management at http://theopenbastion.com/
>>> Next: DjangoCon US Sep 6-8, Washington DC http://djangocon.us/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
> --
> Steve Holden steve@holdenweb.com, Holden Web, LLC http://holdenweb.com/
> Python classes (and much more) through the web http://oreillyschool.com/
> Conferences and technical event management at http://theopenbastion.com/
> Next: DjangoCon US Sep 6-8, Washington DC http://djangocon.us/
>
>
>