Re: [PROPOSAL] Clarify the role of the Champion as an "incubation coordinator" (was: should podlings have informal chairs?)

[Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>]

On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 11:28:06PM +0100, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 10:59 PM, Benson Margulies
> <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > ...2) We redefine the term Champion to be a sort of meta-mentor who,
> > somehow, watches out for bears or missing mentors without necessarily
> > getting deeply involved...
> 
> That's exactly what I'm suggesting.

The word "champion" doesn't seem to describe this new role precisely.  A
"champion" is someone who fights on your behalf -- in the context of a new
podling vouching for it before the skeptical IPMC membership and serving as
spokesperson during the proposal phase.  The word "champion" doesn't
necessarily imply "meta-mentor", which is perhaps one reason why not all
Champions continue on in that role (with notable exceptions) after the
proposal phase concludes and incubation begins.

> > ...As far as I'm concerned, the original role of Champion is fairly silly
> > and symbolic, and any ASF member can help a podling make a proposal to
> > the incubator....
> 
> I wouldn't say silly, it is reassuring for a new podling to have
> someone help with their initial interactions with the ASF.

Also, it is difficult to craft a sensible proposal without the assistance of
someone who is very knowledgable about Apache, e.g. an ASF Member.
 
> But as you say that role evaporates once the project starts, so it
> seems to make sense to give more meaning to it, considering that that
> fills some existing gaps.

To synthesize several other suggestions:

Perhaps the Incubator can require that an incoming podling have a PVP (Podling
Vice President) who must be an ASF Member at the time of the proposal.  That
individual will be responsible for reporting, just as the eventual VP of a
top-level project would be.

At any time during incubation, the podling may elect a new PVP; subsequent
PVPs need not be ASF Members.  The PVP at the time of graduation will be the
obvious choice for project VP, though selection wouldn't be automatic since
the VP is named in the Board Resolution.

By requiring that a proposed podling still have an ASF Member attached to it,
we ensure that candidates for incubation continue to have access to the
resources that the Champion currently provides in advance of submitting their
proposal.

However, this PVP also assumes new responsibilities after incubation starts
which are currently going untended.

Marvin Humphrey


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Clarify the role of the Champion as an "incubation coordinator" (was: should podlings have informal chairs?)

[Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>]

On 23 November 2011 20:25, Chris Hostetter <ho...@fucit.org> wrote:

...

> : Vice President implies power, we don't want to give the impression
> : that the Champion has any superpowers (reread the thread from which
> : this one derives) - it's just a coordination role.
>
> Isn't that true of the VP Role for all ASF Projects?  the title isn't
> abbout power but about responsibility?

You are, of course, correct. However, this is the incubator where
people have yet to learn that. In many cases the incubator documents
will be a projects first experience of the ASF and language is
crucial.

Ross

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Clarify the role of the Champion as an "incubation coordinator" (was: should podlings have informal chairs?)

[Chris Hostetter <ho...@fucit.org>]

: Which is exactly why I suggest extending/clarifying that role. The
: word Champion might not be ideal, but we already have it and if you
: read http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Roles_and_Responsibilities.html#Champion
: it can be understood to include those "new" responsibilities (as Chris
: indicates).

Except that in many situations the "Champion" who helps bring an outside 
project to the incubator may not actually have any vested interest in the 
long term success of the project, but an IPMC member who steps up and 
becomes a mentor may.  The "role" being described really sounds different 
from the original intent of the "Champion" label hence it may make snese 
to think of them as two differnt people.

ie: Someone from the WazBat project hosted on source forge may approach me 
at a confrence knowing that I'm involved with apache and ask about how 
they join.  I may think WazBat would make a good apache project, and i may 
want to encourage them to join the incubator and help them with the 
initial steps of hte process, but i may have no actual interest in being a 
participant/committer/mentor in the WazBat project -- under the current 
set of roles, i could serve as Champion helping them draft their proposal 
and "introducing" them to the Incubator and the Apache way, so that they 
can find mentors to then sheperd them through graduation.  But if you 
redefine the role, then if i'm not interested in that long term 
investment, i'm now skeptical / hesitant to help Champian a project.

Seems to me like the Champian role is just fine as it is, and a new role 
should be added to cover the new responsibilities.

: > Perhaps the Incubator can require that an incoming podling have a PVP (Podling
: > Vice President) who must be an ASF Member at the time of the proposal.  That
: > individual will be responsible for reporting, just as the eventual VP of a
: > top-level project would be.
: >
: > At any time during incubation, the podling may elect a new PVP...
	...
: Vice President implies power, we don't want to give the impression
: that the Champion has any superpowers (reread the thread from which
: this one derives) - it's just a coordination role.

Isn't that true of the VP Role for all ASF Projects?  the title isn't 
abbout power but about responsibility?

Part of the goal of the Incubator is to get pdolings use to the apache way 
of doing things -- if they are going ot have to have a VP as a project 
(and are going to have to understand what exxactly it means to be VP) then  
wouldn't it be better to be consistent with the naming / responsibilities 
of that role while they are in the Incubator?


-Hoss

Re: [PROPOSAL] Clarify the role of the Champion as an "incubation coordinator" (was: should podlings have informal chairs?)

[Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>]

On 23 November 2011 09:14, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org> wrote:

...

> Vice President implies power, we don't want to give the impression
> that the Champion has any superpowers (reread the thread from which
> this one derives) - it's just a coordination role.

+1

I imagine I would vote against any role or title that implied or
granted any power over the podling. This is a coordination role for
the benefit of IPMC oversight, nothing more.

Ross

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Clarify the role of the Champion as an "incubation coordinator" (was: should podlings have informal chairs?)

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 1:15 AM, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 11:28:06PM +0100, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> ...The word "champion" doesn't seem to describe this new role precisely.  A
> "champion" is someone who fights on your behalf -- in the context of a new
> podling vouching for it before the skeptical IPMC membership and serving as
> spokesperson during the proposal phase.  The word "champion" doesn't
> necessarily imply "meta-mentor", which is perhaps one reason why not all
> Champions continue on in that role (with notable exceptions) after the
> proposal phase concludes and incubation begins....

Which is exactly why I suggest extending/clarifying that role. The
word Champion might not be ideal, but we already have it and if you
read http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Roles_and_Responsibilities.html#Champion
it can be understood to include those "new" responsibilities (as Chris
indicates).

So I think the name Champion is good enough and avoids introducing Yet
Another Role.

>... To synthesize several other suggestions:
>
> Perhaps the Incubator can require that an incoming podling have a PVP (Podling
> Vice President) who must be an ASF Member at the time of the proposal.  That
> individual will be responsible for reporting, just as the eventual VP of a
> top-level project would be.
>
> At any time during incubation, the podling may elect a new PVP...

I think your are restating the same goals, using PVP instead of Champion.

Vice President implies power, we don't want to give the impression
that the Champion has any superpowers (reread the thread from which
this one derives) - it's just a coordination role.

-Bertrand

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