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Posted to dev@whimsical.apache.org by Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com> on 2017/09/16 15:28:02 UTC
Re: ICLA submission for Samza
Here's what I'm thinking. Small tweaks to the messages and the processing to detect these four cases:
If the ICLA does not include an Apache id but it is associated with a project:
> This message acknowledges receipt of your ICLA, which has been filed in the Apache Software Foundation records.
>
> With this message, the Incubator PMC and the OpenWhisk podling have been notified that your ICLA has been filed. Please contact them with any questions.
>
> If you have been invited as a committer, please provide the PMC (copied) with your preferred Apache id. The id must be at least three alphanumeric characters starting with an alphabetic character. No special characters.
If the ICLA includes an Apache id, and there is a project but no VOTE:
> This message acknowledges receipt of your ICLA, which has been filed in the Apache Software Foundation records.
>
> With this message, the Incubator PMC and the OpenWhisk podling have been notified that your ICLA has been filed and your requested Apache id is %id. Please contact them with any questions.
>
If there is no project and no Apache id:
> This message acknowledges receipt of your ICLA, which has been filed in the Apache Software Foundation records.
>
> If you have been invited as a committer, please advise the project PMC that your ICLA has been filed and provide the PMC with your preferred Apache id. The id must be at least three alphanumeric characters starting with an alphabetic character. No special characters.
>
> If you have not been invited, please refer to http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#developers for more information about roles at Apache.
>
> New accounts will not be created for contributors without an invitation from an ASF Project.
>
If there is no project but an Apache id is provided:
> This message acknowledges receipt of your ICLA, which has been filed in the Apache Software Foundation records.
>
> If you have been invited as a committer, please advise the project PMC that your ICLA has been filed and provide the PMC with your preferred Apache id..
>
> If you have not been invited, please refer to http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#developers for more information about roles at Apache.
>
> New accounts will not be created for contributors without an invitation from an ASF Project.
What do you think?
Craig
> On Sep 15, 2017, at 1:20 PM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 15 September 2017 at 20:36, Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Sebb,
>>
>>> On Sep 15, 2017, at 11:21 AM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I see.
>>> It's not possible to start setting up an account without the project invite.
>>>
>>> However the reply to the sender implies that there was no preferred id
>>> in the ICLA.
>>> In fact there was one in the ICLA.
>>> This is confusing for the recipient and the PMC.
>>
>> Do you have anecdotal that it is confusing?
>
> It confused me when I read the mail.
>
> I have also seen a reply from at least one user who pointed out that
> the ICLA already contained the info.
>
>>>
>>> I think there needs to be a way to record the requested id(s)
>>> somewhere if the account cannot immediately be requested.
>>> Perhaps just in the mail message.
>>
>> We could note in the standard message that we understand the requested id to be xxx but have no reason to believe that there was an invitation.
>
> That sounds fine.
>
>>> This would help both the sender and the PMC.
>>
>>>
>>> Could even validate the requested id and warn if there is a problem.
>>
>> Patches welcome. If there is a wording that you think would help avoid confusion, let's discuss it. I want to avoid giving the submitter and the PMC the impression that something will be done by secretary when nothing more will be done. It's up to the PMC to take the next step.
>
> Indeed.
>
> I'll have a look at the messages later; probably on a branch.
>
>>
>> Craig
>>>
>>> On 15 September 2017 at 17:17, Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Was there a vote and result and invitation? If there is a bug, that's where it is.
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 15, 2017, at 7:38 AM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> AFAICT the ICLA already contains the preferred id.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there a bug in the workbench that sends the wrong message?
>>>>>
>>>>> On 15 September 2017 at 11:28, Craig L Russell <se...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>> Dear Daniel Nishimura,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This message acknowledges receipt of your ICLA, which has been filed in the Apache Software Foundation records.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With this message, the Samza PMC has been notified that your ICLA has been filed. Please contact them with any questions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you have been invited as a committer, please provide the PMC (copied) with your preferred Apache id. The id must be at least three alphanumeric characters starting with an alphabetic character. No special characters.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Warm Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- Craig L Russell
>>>>>> Secretary, Apache Software Foundation
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Craig L Russell
>>>> Secretary, Apache Software Foundation
>>>> clr@apache.org http://db.apache.org/jdo
>>>>
>>
>> Craig L Russell
>> Secretary, Apache Software Foundation
>> clr@apache.org http://db.apache.org/jdo
>>
Craig L Russell
Secretary, Apache Software Foundation
clr@apache.org http://db.apache.org/jdo
Re: ICLA submission for Samza
Posted by Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com>.
Hi Sebb,
I think a good first step would be to modify the tool to insert the proposed user id into the ack message.
Craig
> On Sep 16, 2017, at 12:24 PM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 16 September 2017 at 20:19, Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sep 16, 2017, at 11:38 AM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 16 September 2017 at 16:28, Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Here's what I'm thinking. Small tweaks to the messages and the processing to detect these four cases:
>>>>
>>>> If the ICLA does not include an Apache id but it is associated with a project:
>>>>
>>>>> This message acknowledges receipt of your ICLA, which has been filed in the Apache Software Foundation records.
>>>>>
>>>>> With this message, the Incubator PMC and the OpenWhisk podling have been notified that your ICLA has been filed. Please contact them with any questions.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you have been invited as a committer, please provide the PMC (copied) with your preferred Apache id. The id must be at least three alphanumeric characters starting with an alphabetic character. No special characters.
>>>
>>> Maybe point to the list of existing ids - or to a (yet to be written)
>>> id checker.
>>
>> I'm pretty sure there is an id checker, with both a front end (first alphabetic, at least two more alphanumeric) and back end (id in use).
>>>
>>>> If the ICLA includes an Apache id, and there is a project but no VOTE:
>>>>
>>>>> This message acknowledges receipt of your ICLA, which has been filed in the Apache Software Foundation records.
>>>>>
>>>>> With this message, the Incubator PMC and the OpenWhisk podling have been notified that your ICLA has been filed and your requested Apache id is %id. Please contact them with any questions.
>>>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe mention that they will have to request the account once there
>>> has been a vote, and/or link to the contributor/committer page
>>
>> Good idea.
>>
>>>> If there is no project and no Apache id:
>>>>
>>>>> This message acknowledges receipt of your ICLA, which has been filed in the Apache Software Foundation records.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you have been invited as a committer, please advise the project PMC that your ICLA has been filed and provide the PMC with your preferred Apache id. The id must be at least three alphanumeric characters starting with an alphabetic character. No special characters.
>>>
>>> Again maybe link to how to check for available ids.
>>
>> Right.
>>>
>>> I would also add something like:
>>>
>>> The project will then be responsible for requesting your account.
>>
>> Good.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you have not been invited, please refer to http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#developers for more information about roles at Apache.
>>>
>>> "If you have not been invited by a project..."
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> New accounts will not be created for contributors without an invitation from an ASF Project.
>>>>>
>>>
>>> Probably ought to allow for podlings as well.
>>
>> Good.
>>>
>>>> If there is no project but an Apache id is provided:
>>>>
>>>>> This message acknowledges receipt of your ICLA, which has been filed in the Apache Software Foundation records.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you have been invited as a committer, please advise the project PMC that your ICLA has been filed and provide the PMC with your preferred Apache id.
>>>
>>> They have already provided the id in the ICLA, so we should include
>>> that in the mail.
>>
>> This is probably the one that needs the most work.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you have not been invited, please refer to http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#developers for more information about roles at Apache.
>>>>>
>>>>> New accounts will not be created for contributors without an invitation from an ASF Project.
>>>>
>>>> What do you think?
>>>
>>> See above.
>>
>> Next steps should be to decide on the messages that need to be added and modified.
>
> Yes, I was planning on setting up a temporary Git branch to work on
> the messages.
>
> Not had time yet.
>
> <snip>
Craig L Russell
clr@apache.org
Re: ICLA submission for Samza
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On 16 September 2017 at 20:19, Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sep 16, 2017, at 11:38 AM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 16 September 2017 at 16:28, Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Here's what I'm thinking. Small tweaks to the messages and the processing to detect these four cases:
>>>
>>> If the ICLA does not include an Apache id but it is associated with a project:
>>>
>>>> This message acknowledges receipt of your ICLA, which has been filed in the Apache Software Foundation records.
>>>>
>>>> With this message, the Incubator PMC and the OpenWhisk podling have been notified that your ICLA has been filed. Please contact them with any questions.
>>>>
>>>> If you have been invited as a committer, please provide the PMC (copied) with your preferred Apache id. The id must be at least three alphanumeric characters starting with an alphabetic character. No special characters.
>>
>> Maybe point to the list of existing ids - or to a (yet to be written)
>> id checker.
>
> I'm pretty sure there is an id checker, with both a front end (first alphabetic, at least two more alphanumeric) and back end (id in use).
>>
>>> If the ICLA includes an Apache id, and there is a project but no VOTE:
>>>
>>>> This message acknowledges receipt of your ICLA, which has been filed in the Apache Software Foundation records.
>>>>
>>>> With this message, the Incubator PMC and the OpenWhisk podling have been notified that your ICLA has been filed and your requested Apache id is %id. Please contact them with any questions.
>>>>
>>
>> Maybe mention that they will have to request the account once there
>> has been a vote, and/or link to the contributor/committer page
>
> Good idea.
>
>>> If there is no project and no Apache id:
>>>
>>>> This message acknowledges receipt of your ICLA, which has been filed in the Apache Software Foundation records.
>>>>
>>>> If you have been invited as a committer, please advise the project PMC that your ICLA has been filed and provide the PMC with your preferred Apache id. The id must be at least three alphanumeric characters starting with an alphabetic character. No special characters.
>>
>> Again maybe link to how to check for available ids.
>
> Right.
>>
>> I would also add something like:
>>
>> The project will then be responsible for requesting your account.
>
> Good.
>>
>>>>
>>>> If you have not been invited, please refer to http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#developers for more information about roles at Apache.
>>
>> "If you have not been invited by a project..."
>>
>>>>
>>>> New accounts will not be created for contributors without an invitation from an ASF Project.
>>>>
>>
>> Probably ought to allow for podlings as well.
>
> Good.
>>
>>> If there is no project but an Apache id is provided:
>>>
>>>> This message acknowledges receipt of your ICLA, which has been filed in the Apache Software Foundation records.
>>>>
>>>> If you have been invited as a committer, please advise the project PMC that your ICLA has been filed and provide the PMC with your preferred Apache id.
>>
>> They have already provided the id in the ICLA, so we should include
>> that in the mail.
>
> This is probably the one that needs the most work.
>>
>>>>
>>>> If you have not been invited, please refer to http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#developers for more information about roles at Apache.
>>>>
>>>> New accounts will not be created for contributors without an invitation from an ASF Project.
>>>
>>> What do you think?
>>
>> See above.
>
> Next steps should be to decide on the messages that need to be added and modified.
Yes, I was planning on setting up a temporary Git branch to work on
the messages.
Not had time yet.
<snip>
Re: ICLA submission for Samza
Posted by Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com>.
> On Sep 16, 2017, at 11:38 AM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 16 September 2017 at 16:28, Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Here's what I'm thinking. Small tweaks to the messages and the processing to detect these four cases:
>>
>> If the ICLA does not include an Apache id but it is associated with a project:
>>
>>> This message acknowledges receipt of your ICLA, which has been filed in the Apache Software Foundation records.
>>>
>>> With this message, the Incubator PMC and the OpenWhisk podling have been notified that your ICLA has been filed. Please contact them with any questions.
>>>
>>> If you have been invited as a committer, please provide the PMC (copied) with your preferred Apache id. The id must be at least three alphanumeric characters starting with an alphabetic character. No special characters.
>
> Maybe point to the list of existing ids - or to a (yet to be written)
> id checker.
I'm pretty sure there is an id checker, with both a front end (first alphabetic, at least two more alphanumeric) and back end (id in use).
>
>> If the ICLA includes an Apache id, and there is a project but no VOTE:
>>
>>> This message acknowledges receipt of your ICLA, which has been filed in the Apache Software Foundation records.
>>>
>>> With this message, the Incubator PMC and the OpenWhisk podling have been notified that your ICLA has been filed and your requested Apache id is %id. Please contact them with any questions.
>>>
>
> Maybe mention that they will have to request the account once there
> has been a vote, and/or link to the contributor/committer page
Good idea.
>> If there is no project and no Apache id:
>>
>>> This message acknowledges receipt of your ICLA, which has been filed in the Apache Software Foundation records.
>>>
>>> If you have been invited as a committer, please advise the project PMC that your ICLA has been filed and provide the PMC with your preferred Apache id. The id must be at least three alphanumeric characters starting with an alphabetic character. No special characters.
>
> Again maybe link to how to check for available ids.
Right.
>
> I would also add something like:
>
> The project will then be responsible for requesting your account.
Good.
>
>>>
>>> If you have not been invited, please refer to http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#developers for more information about roles at Apache.
>
> "If you have not been invited by a project..."
>
>>>
>>> New accounts will not be created for contributors without an invitation from an ASF Project.
>>>
>
> Probably ought to allow for podlings as well.
Good.
>
>> If there is no project but an Apache id is provided:
>>
>>> This message acknowledges receipt of your ICLA, which has been filed in the Apache Software Foundation records.
>>>
>>> If you have been invited as a committer, please advise the project PMC that your ICLA has been filed and provide the PMC with your preferred Apache id.
>
> They have already provided the id in the ICLA, so we should include
> that in the mail.
This is probably the one that needs the most work.
>
>>>
>>> If you have not been invited, please refer to http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#developers for more information about roles at Apache.
>>>
>>> New accounts will not be created for contributors without an invitation from an ASF Project.
>>
>> What do you think?
>
> See above.
Next steps should be to decide on the messages that need to be added and modified.
Craig
>
>> Craig
>>
>>> On Sep 15, 2017, at 1:20 PM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 15 September 2017 at 20:36, Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi Sebb,
>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 15, 2017, at 11:21 AM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I see.
>>>>> It's not possible to start setting up an account without the project invite.
>>>>>
>>>>> However the reply to the sender implies that there was no preferred id
>>>>> in the ICLA.
>>>>> In fact there was one in the ICLA.
>>>>> This is confusing for the recipient and the PMC.
>>>>
>>>> Do you have anecdotal that it is confusing?
>>>
>>> It confused me when I read the mail.
>>>
>>> I have also seen a reply from at least one user who pointed out that
>>> the ICLA already contained the info.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think there needs to be a way to record the requested id(s)
>>>>> somewhere if the account cannot immediately be requested.
>>>>> Perhaps just in the mail message.
>>>>
>>>> We could note in the standard message that we understand the requested id to be xxx but have no reason to believe that there was an invitation.
>>>
>>> That sounds fine.
>>>
>>>>> This would help both the sender and the PMC.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Could even validate the requested id and warn if there is a problem.
>>>>
>>>> Patches welcome. If there is a wording that you think would help avoid confusion, let's discuss it. I want to avoid giving the submitter and the PMC the impression that something will be done by secretary when nothing more will be done. It's up to the PMC to take the next step.
>>>
>>> Indeed.
>>>
>>> I'll have a look at the messages later; probably on a branch.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>>
>>>>> On 15 September 2017 at 17:17, Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Was there a vote and result and invitation? If there is a bug, that's where it is.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sep 15, 2017, at 7:38 AM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> AFAICT the ICLA already contains the preferred id.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is there a bug in the workbench that sends the wrong message?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 15 September 2017 at 11:28, Craig L Russell <se...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Dear Daniel Nishimura,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This message acknowledges receipt of your ICLA, which has been filed in the Apache Software Foundation records.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> With this message, the Samza PMC has been notified that your ICLA has been filed. Please contact them with any questions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you have been invited as a committer, please provide the PMC (copied) with your preferred Apache id. The id must be at least three alphanumeric characters starting with an alphabetic character. No special characters.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Warm Regards,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -- Craig L Russell
>>>>>>>> Secretary, Apache Software Foundation
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Craig L Russell
>>>>>> Secretary, Apache Software Foundation
>>>>>> clr@apache.org http://db.apache.org/jdo
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Craig L Russell
>>>> Secretary, Apache Software Foundation
>>>> clr@apache.org http://db.apache.org/jdo
>>>>
>>
>> Craig L Russell
>> Secretary, Apache Software Foundation
>> clr@apache.org http://db.apache.org/jdo
>>
Craig L Russell
Secretary, Apache Software Foundation
clr@apache.org http://db.apache.org/jdo
Re: ICLA submission for Samza
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On 16 September 2017 at 16:28, Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Here's what I'm thinking. Small tweaks to the messages and the processing to detect these four cases:
>
> If the ICLA does not include an Apache id but it is associated with a project:
>
>> This message acknowledges receipt of your ICLA, which has been filed in the Apache Software Foundation records.
>>
>> With this message, the Incubator PMC and the OpenWhisk podling have been notified that your ICLA has been filed. Please contact them with any questions.
>>
>> If you have been invited as a committer, please provide the PMC (copied) with your preferred Apache id. The id must be at least three alphanumeric characters starting with an alphabetic character. No special characters.
Maybe point to the list of existing ids - or to a (yet to be written)
id checker.
> If the ICLA includes an Apache id, and there is a project but no VOTE:
>
>> This message acknowledges receipt of your ICLA, which has been filed in the Apache Software Foundation records.
>>
>> With this message, the Incubator PMC and the OpenWhisk podling have been notified that your ICLA has been filed and your requested Apache id is %id. Please contact them with any questions.
>>
Maybe mention that they will have to request the account once there
has been a vote, and/or link to the contributor/committer page
> If there is no project and no Apache id:
>
>> This message acknowledges receipt of your ICLA, which has been filed in the Apache Software Foundation records.
>>
>> If you have been invited as a committer, please advise the project PMC that your ICLA has been filed and provide the PMC with your preferred Apache id. The id must be at least three alphanumeric characters starting with an alphabetic character. No special characters.
Again maybe link to how to check for available ids.
I would also add something like:
The project will then be responsible for requesting your account.
>>
>> If you have not been invited, please refer to http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#developers for more information about roles at Apache.
"If you have not been invited by a project..."
>>
>> New accounts will not be created for contributors without an invitation from an ASF Project.
>>
Probably ought to allow for podlings as well.
> If there is no project but an Apache id is provided:
>
>> This message acknowledges receipt of your ICLA, which has been filed in the Apache Software Foundation records.
>>
>> If you have been invited as a committer, please advise the project PMC that your ICLA has been filed and provide the PMC with your preferred Apache id.
They have already provided the id in the ICLA, so we should include
that in the mail.
>>
>> If you have not been invited, please refer to http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#developers for more information about roles at Apache.
>>
>> New accounts will not be created for contributors without an invitation from an ASF Project.
>
> What do you think?
See above.
> Craig
>
>> On Sep 15, 2017, at 1:20 PM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 15 September 2017 at 20:36, Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hi Sebb,
>>>
>>>> On Sep 15, 2017, at 11:21 AM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I see.
>>>> It's not possible to start setting up an account without the project invite.
>>>>
>>>> However the reply to the sender implies that there was no preferred id
>>>> in the ICLA.
>>>> In fact there was one in the ICLA.
>>>> This is confusing for the recipient and the PMC.
>>>
>>> Do you have anecdotal that it is confusing?
>>
>> It confused me when I read the mail.
>>
>> I have also seen a reply from at least one user who pointed out that
>> the ICLA already contained the info.
>>
>>>>
>>>> I think there needs to be a way to record the requested id(s)
>>>> somewhere if the account cannot immediately be requested.
>>>> Perhaps just in the mail message.
>>>
>>> We could note in the standard message that we understand the requested id to be xxx but have no reason to believe that there was an invitation.
>>
>> That sounds fine.
>>
>>>> This would help both the sender and the PMC.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Could even validate the requested id and warn if there is a problem.
>>>
>>> Patches welcome. If there is a wording that you think would help avoid confusion, let's discuss it. I want to avoid giving the submitter and the PMC the impression that something will be done by secretary when nothing more will be done. It's up to the PMC to take the next step.
>>
>> Indeed.
>>
>> I'll have a look at the messages later; probably on a branch.
>>
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>> On 15 September 2017 at 17:17, Craig Russell <ap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Was there a vote and result and invitation? If there is a bug, that's where it is.
>>>>>
>>>>> Craig
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sep 15, 2017, at 7:38 AM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> AFAICT the ICLA already contains the preferred id.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there a bug in the workbench that sends the wrong message?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 15 September 2017 at 11:28, Craig L Russell <se...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> Dear Daniel Nishimura,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This message acknowledges receipt of your ICLA, which has been filed in the Apache Software Foundation records.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> With this message, the Samza PMC has been notified that your ICLA has been filed. Please contact them with any questions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you have been invited as a committer, please provide the PMC (copied) with your preferred Apache id. The id must be at least three alphanumeric characters starting with an alphabetic character. No special characters.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Warm Regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- Craig L Russell
>>>>>>> Secretary, Apache Software Foundation
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Craig L Russell
>>>>> Secretary, Apache Software Foundation
>>>>> clr@apache.org http://db.apache.org/jdo
>>>>>
>>>
>>> Craig L Russell
>>> Secretary, Apache Software Foundation
>>> clr@apache.org http://db.apache.org/jdo
>>>
>
> Craig L Russell
> Secretary, Apache Software Foundation
> clr@apache.org http://db.apache.org/jdo
>