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Posted to user@velocity.apache.org by Paul Smith <Pa...@lawlex.com.au> on 2002/10/18 00:35:18 UTC
The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
I think a more refined filter is required than a Bozo filter, as I think it
might filter me out too (should have seen me code yesterday.... ;) )
Personally I don't mind and actually would like to encourage a vigorous
debate on any Velocity issues as it is healthy, but I would ask that all
participants to think first before putting fingers to keyboards. Have a
think about the tone of the message in particular, and the audience it's
going to, we're all very pationate people. Stay technical. Some elements
of some of the messages I've read seem entirely designed to be inflamatory,
even if they are technically based.
If you review the archives of this list over the past 6 months, it is also
apparant that Jonathan was going to unsubscribe from this list of his own
free will (after a similar, but with perhaps a higher DefCon-status series
of 'discussions'). It is interesting that he has chosen to return to
participate in this list (if he ever really left?), I'll let Jonathon speak
for himself on his reasons for returning to the fold.
I would hope for his and Freemarker's sake that things are going so well and
that the team is so busy adding cool features to it and assisting Freemarker
users that there is no need to even think about Velocity. I would also like
to point out that from a purely marketing point of view, regardless of
technical issues, this debate is not improving Freemarker's image one iota.
So much of this world is about perception, just remember that.
Jonathan, I wish I had your free time.
regards,
Paul Smith
-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Steichen [mailto:terry@net-frame.com]
Sent: Friday, 18 October 2002 3:51 AM
To: velocity-user@jakarta.apache.org
Subject: Bozo Filter Available?
Geir,
Do we have a bozo filter we could use? Or would a spam-trap work better.
This guy (guess who?) is doing more harm for his product/cause than he seems
to imagine. (Probably doesn't have enough traffic on his own list to keep
busy.)
Terry
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Re: Standardized tools for date/number formatting etc., was Re:
you-know-what
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On 10/20/02 6:07 PM, "Attila Szegedi" <sz...@freemail.hu> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Attila Szegedi" <sz...@freemail.hu>
> To: "Velocity Users List" <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 7:28 PM
> Subject: Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
>
>
>> Incidentally, FM 2.1 now has comparison operators working for dates as
> well
>> as a locale and time-zone sensitive date formatting...
>
> Now that I wrote that, I realized that you can easily have date comparisons
> in Velocity as well using
>
> #if($date1.compareTo($date2) <any-comparison-operator> 0)
>
> or using date.after() or date.before() instead of compareTo(). Of course,
> that's again falling back to the Java API, which I consider a real problem
> for template code, as stated earlier. So probably a standardized tool should
> be instead the way to solve in Velocity-was this, and localized formatting,
> and string manipulation problems.
>
I am split on the "Java API as a problem" subject :
On one hand, the fact that we can so transparently use public methods on
objects is nice, as we get so much for free.
On the other hand, and I realized this when talking to the Cheetah folks
about making sure that Velocity templates could be used in Cheetah (and vice
versa...), that language dependence is bad.
Of course, re the second point, I don't know of any templating-ish systems
that have tight binding to a language and are free of the influence of that
language. Cheetah, for example, is very influenced by Python. Which is
great if you are using Python and Cheetah...
geir
--
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geirm@adeptra.com +1-203-355-2219 (w)
Adeptra Inc. +1-203-247-1713 (m)
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Standardized tools for date/number formatting etc., was Re: you-know-what
Posted by Attila Szegedi <sz...@freemail.hu>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Attila Szegedi" <sz...@freemail.hu>
To: "Velocity Users List" <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
> Incidentally, FM 2.1 now has comparison operators working for dates as
well
> as a locale and time-zone sensitive date formatting...
Now that I wrote that, I realized that you can easily have date comparisons
in Velocity as well using
#if($date1.compareTo($date2) <any-comparison-operator> 0)
or using date.after() or date.before() instead of compareTo(). Of course,
that's again falling back to the Java API, which I consider a real problem
for template code, as stated earlier. So probably a standardized tool should
be instead the way to solve in Velocity-was this, and localized formatting,
and string manipulation problems.
Attila.
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Nathan Bubna <na...@esha.com>.
Attila said:
> Incidentally, FM 2.1 now has comparison operators working for dates as
well
> as a locale and time-zone sensitive date formatting... I know that in
> Velocity, support for such functionality will never make it in the engine
> core, but I guess that having locale aware date/number formatting, string
> manipulation[1] and such could at least be implemented as a set of
> standardized tools, so at least all people don't have to reinvent the same
> wheel. I guess not everyone is a Do-It-Yourself-enthusiast :-)
i've already written several tools for things like math/numbers and dates
and whatnot. you can find them in the velocity-tools subproject. they're
probably not all that they should be yet, but these i only really have time
to work on these things if they're going to be used for my employer.
contributions are always quite welcome! :-)
Nathan Bubna
nathan@esha.com
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RE: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Paulo Gaspar <pa...@krankikom.de>.
Hi Attila,
I am using this template engine for my PHP stuff:
http://smarty.php.net/manual/en/
It has interesting syntax ideas for plug-in functions...
http://smarty.php.net/manual/en/api.register.function.html
...which also can be exposed as modifiers.
http://smarty.php.net/manual/en/language.modifiers.html
The modifiers seem to be a good idea for designer use.
Yes, since you seem to be interested on all things template
related, I dared to even post URLs to PHP thing.
=;o)
Have fun,
Paulo
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Attila Szegedi [mailto:szegedia@freemail.hu]
> Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 7:29 PM
> To: Velocity Users List
> Subject: Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paulo Gaspar" <pa...@krankikom.de>
> To: "Velocity Users List" <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 7:16 PM
> Subject: RE: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?
>
>
> >
> > I am getting across a lot of similar situations also with dates.
> >
>
> Incidentally, FM 2.1 now has comparison operators working for
> dates as well
> as a locale and time-zone sensitive date formatting... I know that in
> Velocity, support for such functionality will never make it in the engine
> core, but I guess that having locale aware date/number formatting, string
> manipulation[1] and such could at least be implemented as a set of
> standardized tools, so at least all people don't have to reinvent the same
> wheel. I guess not everyone is a Do-It-Yourself-enthusiast :-)
>
> [1] I know that you can write expressions like $str.substring(0,
> 1).toUpperCase() in a template to manipulate string. But as I
> indicated in a
> recent message, writing valid Java language expressions in a template is
> pretty much JSP-like, actually, so it'd definitely be beneficial if there
> were a standard way to perform typical String operations without requiring
> template designers to learn Java. Also, there's a .Net port of
> Velocity, and
> I'm pretty much sure it'd break on the above (albeit, knowing how
> C# API got
> copied from Java, I wouldn't be much surprised if the method names for
> fundamental classes would actually match on both platforms...).
>
> Cheers,
> Attila
>
>
>
>
> --
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<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Attila Szegedi <sz...@freemail.hu>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paulo Gaspar" <pa...@krankikom.de>
To: "Velocity Users List" <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 7:16 PM
Subject: RE: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?
>
> I am getting across a lot of similar situations also with dates.
>
Incidentally, FM 2.1 now has comparison operators working for dates as well
as a locale and time-zone sensitive date formatting... I know that in
Velocity, support for such functionality will never make it in the engine
core, but I guess that having locale aware date/number formatting, string
manipulation[1] and such could at least be implemented as a set of
standardized tools, so at least all people don't have to reinvent the same
wheel. I guess not everyone is a Do-It-Yourself-enthusiast :-)
[1] I know that you can write expressions like $str.substring(0,
1).toUpperCase() in a template to manipulate string. But as I indicated in a
recent message, writing valid Java language expressions in a template is
pretty much JSP-like, actually, so it'd definitely be beneficial if there
were a standard way to perform typical String operations without requiring
template designers to learn Java. Also, there's a .Net port of Velocity, and
I'm pretty much sure it'd break on the above (albeit, knowing how C# API got
copied from Java, I wouldn't be much surprised if the method names for
fundamental classes would actually match on both platforms...).
Cheers,
Attila
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On 10/20/02 1:16 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <pa...@krankikom.de> wrote:
>> LOL
>>
>> :)
>
> Don't laugh Geir. It makes some sense.
>
> I am getting across a lot of similar situations also with dates.
I wasn't laughing at him or his point.
I was laughing at me because of his recognition of the "philosophical"
versus "technical" difference.
:)
Geir
>
>
> Have fun,
> Paulo Gaspar
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:geirm@adeptra.com]
>> Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 8:06 PM
>> To: velocity-user@jakarta.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
>>
>>
>> On 10/19/02 2:00 PM, "Jeff Schnitzer" <je...@infohazard.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2002 at 12:30:44PM -0400, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The example of #if( $foo < $bar) is (I believe) the right
>> discussion point
>>>> for the change. In this case the designer is unconcerned with units or
>>>> representation, just the difference.
>>>
>>> Just to bring this point closer to a real world, think of a simple
>>> site reporing the temperature of two things.
>>>
>>> A template designer really really needs to be able to say:
>>>
>>> #if ($temperature1 > $temperature2) red #else green #end
>>>
>>> or
>>>
>>> #if ($temperature1 < 25)
>>> red
>>> #elseif ($temperature1 < 50.7)
>>> yellow
>>> #else
>>> red
>>> #end
>>>
>>> ...this is my offering of a 100% philosophically correct,
>>> compelling argument for recognizing floats.
>>
>> LOL
>>
>> :)
>>
>>
>> --
>> Geir Magnusson Jr.
>> geirm@adeptra.com +1-203-355-2219 (w)
>> Adeptra Inc. +1-203-247-1713 (m)
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>>
>
>
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Adeptra Inc. +1-203-247-1713 (m)
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RE: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Paulo Gaspar <pa...@krankikom.de>.
> LOL
>
> :)
Don't laugh Geir. It makes some sense.
I am getting across a lot of similar situations also with dates.
Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:geirm@adeptra.com]
> Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 8:06 PM
> To: velocity-user@jakarta.apache.org
> Subject: Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
>
>
> On 10/19/02 2:00 PM, "Jeff Schnitzer" <je...@infohazard.org> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Oct 18, 2002 at 12:30:44PM -0400, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
> >>
> >> The example of #if( $foo < $bar) is (I believe) the right
> discussion point
> >> for the change. In this case the designer is unconcerned with units or
> >> representation, just the difference.
> >
> > Just to bring this point closer to a real world, think of a simple
> > site reporing the temperature of two things.
> >
> > A template designer really really needs to be able to say:
> >
> > #if ($temperature1 > $temperature2) red #else green #end
> >
> > or
> >
> > #if ($temperature1 < 25)
> > red
> > #elseif ($temperature1 < 50.7)
> > yellow
> > #else
> > red
> > #end
> >
> > ...this is my offering of a 100% philosophically correct,
> > compelling argument for recognizing floats.
>
> LOL
>
> :)
>
>
> --
> Geir Magnusson Jr.
> geirm@adeptra.com +1-203-355-2219 (w)
> Adeptra Inc. +1-203-247-1713 (m)
>
>
>
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>
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On 10/19/02 2:00 PM, "Jeff Schnitzer" <je...@infohazard.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 18, 2002 at 12:30:44PM -0400, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>>
>> The example of #if( $foo < $bar) is (I believe) the right discussion point
>> for the change. In this case the designer is unconcerned with units or
>> representation, just the difference.
>
> Just to bring this point closer to a real world, think of a simple
> site reporing the temperature of two things.
>
> A template designer really really needs to be able to say:
>
> #if ($temperature1 > $temperature2) red #else green #end
>
> or
>
> #if ($temperature1 < 25)
> red
> #elseif ($temperature1 < 50.7)
> yellow
> #else
> red
> #end
>
> ...this is my offering of a 100% philosophically correct,
> compelling argument for recognizing floats.
LOL
:)
--
Geir Magnusson Jr.
geirm@adeptra.com +1-203-355-2219 (w)
Adeptra Inc. +1-203-247-1713 (m)
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Jeff Schnitzer <je...@infohazard.org>.
On Fri, Oct 18, 2002 at 12:30:44PM -0400, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>
> The example of #if( $foo < $bar) is (I believe) the right discussion point
> for the change. In this case the designer is unconcerned with units or
> representation, just the difference.
Just to bring this point closer to a real world, think of a simple
site reporing the temperature of two things.
A template designer really really needs to be able to say:
#if ($temperature1 > $temperature2) red #else green #end
or
#if ($temperature1 < 25)
red
#elseif ($temperature1 < 50.7)
yellow
#else
red
#end
...this is my offering of a 100% philosophically correct,
compelling argument for recognizing floats.
Jeff Schnitzer
jeff@infohazard.org
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
On Friday 18 October 2002 06:30 pm, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
> On 10/18/02 12:24 PM, "Geir Magnusson Jr" <ge...@optonline.net> wrote:
> > On 10/18/02 12:10 PM, "Jim McLaughlin" <ji...@stonewatercontrols.com> wrote:
> >> Yes. And a designer might also need some display logic like
> >> #if ($total / $conversionFactor < $min) red #else green #end
> >>
> >> Philosophically, I don't want someone elses philosophy restricting my
> >> freedom to enjoy a great tool like velocity, especially when it fails to
> >> stand up to scrutiny. Let's pay our respects to the great developers of
> >> velocity past, and then amend their flawed design decisions.
> >
> > I am one of the developers of velocity past
> >
> > :)
>
> Sorry - that one fired off too quickly - I meant to add more...
>
> Yes, I agree that philosophies do need boundaries (like rights...). And
> this is a case of clear clash of philosophy. My point was that this isn't
> a technical discussion, and I have indicated that my thinking on support
> for operators has shifted.
Well, if it's a philosophical question, I don't know what the philosophy being
espoused here is. I understand this problem space as well as most people you
can think of. Really, I do, and I think it's safe to say that if I quite
honestly don't understand the argument being presented, then basically,
nobody does.
Anyway, as philosophy goes, my own philosophy is that you create a tool to
help people do their jobs. (To "empower" people in management-speak.)
Now, in some cases, there may be reasons to create impedances that prevent a
tool being used in certain ways. However, I cannot see what the case for that
is in this instance. I mean, Velocity is a tool that allows people to invoke
arbitrary java method from the template -- and thus, do all kinds of things
that are inappropriate on that level. I mean, one can construct all kinds of
fairly dangerous scenarios. Yet meanwhile, it is somehow inappropriate to let
people perform 4-function calculator arithmetic on numbers and display the
result. And this is a case where I cannot, for the life of me, see what the
dangerous possibilities are.
The whole thing strikes me as utterly inconsistent and nonsensical. And it
appears that I am not alone.
>
> I do think that your example is a bad one :) because I would ask why the
> designer has to do the conversion - but that is a philosophical discussion
> too.
I reread this paragraph several times to be sure that you were saying what I
thought you were saying!
You ask why the "designer has to do the conversion". What kind of question is
that? Is the onus not on you to explain why you would be actively against the
designer doing the conversion?
I mean, converting units is a level of mathematical sophistication to which
people are exposed in grade school surely!
I mean, far more to the point: why should I, a developer, have to become
involved because people working at the presentation level want to display
miles as well as kilometres or gallons as well as litres, or whatever? Would
it not be better if the tool simply empowered the template writers to do what
they want on that level?
Or, looking at this from a different angle, should I be obliged to anticipate
every different way that somebody might want to display the data?
It seems much better if I can just expose the canonical data to a page --
distances in kilometres, volumes in litres, and so on, and let other people
display the data in whatever way they want -- and that clearly includes
converting displaying the distances in miles, or the volumes in gallons, and
so on.
But when I say this gets surreal, let me clarify this further. This is
philosophical, I guess....
Suppose there was a word processing program and there was an impedance built
in that you couldn't write the word "pumpernickel". Well, you might ask
equivalently as above: "Why does the user need to write 'pumpernickel'"?
Well, is there any onus whatsoever on the other side of the debate to explain
all the possible scenarios in which someone would legitimately want to write
"pumpernickel"? Is the onus not on the side that wants to prevent the user
from doing something perfectly natural and normal, to explain why the user
should be prevented from doing this?
IOW, the person who wants to create an unnatural impedance is the one who
should bear the burden of explaining why he wants this impedance to be there
-- not the person who wants people to be able to do the thing in question.
I mean, this stands to reason, doesn't it?
Or really, maybe this just points up a philsophical gap between myself and the
Velocity project that is almost... inconceivable....
>
> The example of #if( $foo < $bar) is (I believe) the right discussion point
> for the change. In this case the designer is unconcerned with units or
> representation, just the difference.
This paragraph, I can't even parse.
But okay, maybe we're getting somewhere. You say that this is not a technical
issue, but rather a philsophical one. What is the philosophical basis behind
the idea that people should not be able to, let's say, multiply two numbers
together in a template and display the result?
Best Regards,
Jonathan Revusky
--
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FreeMarker-Velocity comparison doc
http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/fmVsVel.html
Velocity->FreeMarker template conversion utility
http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/usCavalry.html
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Jim McLaughlin <ji...@stonewatercontrols.com>.
>
>
>>>
>>>
>>I am one of the developers of velocity past
>>
>>:)
>>
>>
Mad props to you :)
>
>Sorry - that one fired off too quickly - I meant to add more...
>
>Yes, I agree that philosophies do need boundaries (like rights...). And
>this is a case of clear clash of philosophy. My point was that this isn't a
>technical discussion, and I have indicated that my thinking on support for
>operators has shifted.
>
>I do think that your example is a bad one :) because I would ask why the
>designer has to do the conversion - but that is a philosophical discussion
>too.
>
>
Admittedly lame. But you can say the same thing about some integer math
operators, and these are supported. I included division in my example
because I want to make the case that other operators besides the logic
ones should be included for the sake of consistency. I'm sure there
have been designers who are not well acquainted with java's type system
(or even know what a type system is for that matter) that have been
confused as to why 1 + 2 works but 1.0 + 2.0 does not. If you are going
to add support for comparing floats, go all the way and add same level
of support velocity has for integers and spare future designers the
puzzlement.
jim
>The example of #if( $foo < $bar) is (I believe) the right discussion point
>for the change. In this case the designer is unconcerned with units or
>representation, just the difference.
>
>
>
>
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RE: The Debate: decimal numbers
Posted by "Charles N. Harvey III" <ch...@alloy.com>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Geir Magnusson Jr [mailto:geirm@optonline.net]
> Sent: Friday, October 18, 2002 12:31 PM
> To: velocity-user@jakarta.apache.org
> Subject: Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
>
> The example of #if( $foo < $bar) is (I believe) the right discussion point
> for the change. In this case the designer is unconcerned with units or
> representation, just the difference.
>
>
+1 Nobody realizes the difference between numbers with a decimal and
numbers without. If everyone at my company called them Naturals and
Reals then I wouldn't be concerned. But since they don't, I think
they should be able to compare all "Reals".
Charlie
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@optonline.net>.
On 10/18/02 12:24 PM, "Geir Magnusson Jr" <ge...@optonline.net> wrote:
> On 10/18/02 12:10 PM, "Jim McLaughlin" <ji...@stonewatercontrols.com> wrote:
>
>> Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/17/02 11:02 PM, "Jim McLaughlin" <ji...@stonewatercontrols.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Yes I think despite his petulance Jonathan has a valid point, and he
>>>> will be able to ram it home ad nauseum until the velocity developers
>>>> make this correction.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> This point has been well understood for a lot longer than Jonathan has been
>>> making it. This is a philosophical issue, not a technical one.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> It is kind of arbitrary to support integer value
>>>> types and their operators, but not floats, because any argument you can
>>>> make against supporting operations on floats can likewise be made about
>>>> ints.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> That actually isn't true, if you take the position that as a designer, you
>>> use integer math for design things, like alternating row colors :
>>>
>>> #if($rowCount % 2 == 0) blue #else green #end
>>>
>>> (This was the example that saved the % operator, which was deemed by some to
>>> not be worth including...)
>>>
>>> Really - there was some very strong opinions by the original developers on
>>> this.
>>>
>>> No, you may not believe this. Many don't.
>>>
>>>
>> Yes. And a designer might also need some display logic like
>> #if ($total / $conversionFactor < $min) red #else green #end
>>
>> Philosophically, I don't want someone elses philosophy restricting my
>> freedom to enjoy a great tool like velocity, especially when it fails to
>> stand up to scrutiny. Let's pay our respects to the great developers of
>> velocity past, and then amend their flawed design decisions.
>
> I am one of the developers of velocity past
>
> :)
Sorry - that one fired off too quickly - I meant to add more...
Yes, I agree that philosophies do need boundaries (like rights...). And
this is a case of clear clash of philosophy. My point was that this isn't a
technical discussion, and I have indicated that my thinking on support for
operators has shifted.
I do think that your example is a bad one :) because I would ask why the
designer has to do the conversion - but that is a philosophical discussion
too.
The example of #if( $foo < $bar) is (I believe) the right discussion point
for the change. In this case the designer is unconcerned with units or
representation, just the difference.
--
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@optonline.net>.
On 10/18/02 12:10 PM, "Jim McLaughlin" <ji...@stonewatercontrols.com> wrote:
> Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>
>> On 10/17/02 11:02 PM, "Jim McLaughlin" <ji...@stonewatercontrols.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Yes I think despite his petulance Jonathan has a valid point, and he
>>> will be able to ram it home ad nauseum until the velocity developers
>>> make this correction.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> This point has been well understood for a lot longer than Jonathan has been
>> making it. This is a philosophical issue, not a technical one.
>>
>>
>>
>>> It is kind of arbitrary to support integer value
>>> types and their operators, but not floats, because any argument you can
>>> make against supporting operations on floats can likewise be made about
>>> ints.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> That actually isn't true, if you take the position that as a designer, you
>> use integer math for design things, like alternating row colors :
>>
>> #if($rowCount % 2 == 0) blue #else green #end
>>
>> (This was the example that saved the % operator, which was deemed by some to
>> not be worth including...)
>>
>> Really - there was some very strong opinions by the original developers on
>> this.
>>
>> No, you may not believe this. Many don't.
>>
>>
> Yes. And a designer might also need some display logic like
> #if ($total / $conversionFactor < $min) red #else green #end
>
> Philosophically, I don't want someone elses philosophy restricting my
> freedom to enjoy a great tool like velocity, especially when it fails to
> stand up to scrutiny. Let's pay our respects to the great developers of
> velocity past, and then amend their flawed design decisions.
I am one of the developers of velocity past
:)
--
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geirm@adeptra.com +1-203-355-2219 (w)
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Jim McLaughlin <ji...@stonewatercontrols.com>.
Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>On 10/17/02 11:02 PM, "Jim McLaughlin" <ji...@stonewatercontrols.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Yes I think despite his petulance Jonathan has a valid point, and he
>>will be able to ram it home ad nauseum until the velocity developers
>>make this correction.
>>
>>
>
>This point has been well understood for a lot longer than Jonathan has been
>making it. This is a philosophical issue, not a technical one.
>
>
>
>>It is kind of arbitrary to support integer value
>>types and their operators, but not floats, because any argument you can
>>make against supporting operations on floats can likewise be made about
>>ints.
>>
>>
>
>That actually isn't true, if you take the position that as a designer, you
>use integer math for design things, like alternating row colors :
>
>#if($rowCount % 2 == 0) blue #else green #end
>
>(This was the example that saved the % operator, which was deemed by some to
>not be worth including...)
>
>Really - there was some very strong opinions by the original developers on
>this.
>
>No, you may not believe this. Many don't.
>
>
Yes. And a designer might also need some display logic like
#if ($total / $conversionFactor < $min) red #else green #end
Philosophically, I don't want someone elses philosophy restricting my
freedom to enjoy a great tool like velocity, especially when it fails to
stand up to scrutiny. Let's pay our respects to the great developers of
velocity past, and then amend their flawed design decisions.
jim
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@optonline.net>.
On 10/17/02 11:02 PM, "Jim McLaughlin" <ji...@stonewatercontrols.com> wrote:
> Paul Smith wrote:
>
>> I think a more refined filter is required than a Bozo filter, as I think it
>> might filter me out too (should have seen me code yesterday.... ;) )
>>
>> Personally I don't mind and actually would like to encourage a vigorous
>> debate on any Velocity issues as it is healthy, but I would ask that all
>> participants to think first before putting fingers to keyboards. Have a
>> think about the tone of the message in particular, and the audience it's
>> going to, we're all very pationate people. Stay technical. Some elements
>> of some of the messages I've read seem entirely designed to be inflamatory,
>> even if they are technically based.
>>
>>
>>
> Yes I think despite his petulance Jonathan has a valid point, and he
> will be able to ram it home ad nauseum until the velocity developers
> make this correction.
This point has been well understood for a lot longer than Jonathan has been
making it. This is a philosophical issue, not a technical one.
> It is kind of arbitrary to support integer value
> types and their operators, but not floats, because any argument you can
> make against supporting operations on floats can likewise be made about
> ints.
That actually isn't true, if you take the position that as a designer, you
use integer math for design things, like alternating row colors :
#if($rowCount % 2 == 0) blue #else green #end
(This was the example that saved the % operator, which was deemed by some to
not be worth including...)
Really - there was some very strong opinions by the original developers on
this.
No, you may not believe this. Many don't.
> And such logic is also counterintuitive to the "naive designers"
> who don't understand float or int, but rather see only numbers and end
> up scratching their heads over the restriction. Since the decision was
> made to support operations on primitives in velocity, it is only natural
> to extend it to all the primitive types. This must be done for the sake
> of design consistency. The current position is indefensible, and if we
> continue to maintain it Jonathan will continue to pick us apart as he
> has so abley and irrascibley done for the past few days.
>
> Just my 2000 lira :)
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>
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> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Jim McLaughlin <ji...@stonewatercontrols.com>.
Paul Smith wrote:
>I think a more refined filter is required than a Bozo filter, as I think it
>might filter me out too (should have seen me code yesterday.... ;) )
>
>Personally I don't mind and actually would like to encourage a vigorous
>debate on any Velocity issues as it is healthy, but I would ask that all
>participants to think first before putting fingers to keyboards. Have a
>think about the tone of the message in particular, and the audience it's
>going to, we're all very pationate people. Stay technical. Some elements
>of some of the messages I've read seem entirely designed to be inflamatory,
>even if they are technically based.
>
>
>
Yes I think despite his petulance Jonathan has a valid point, and he
will be able to ram it home ad nauseum until the velocity developers
make this correction. It is kind of arbitrary to support integer value
types and their operators, but not floats, because any argument you can
make against supporting operations on floats can likewise be made about
ints. And such logic is also counterintuitive to the "naive designers"
who don't understand float or int, but rather see only numbers and end
up scratching their heads over the restriction. Since the decision was
made to support operations on primitives in velocity, it is only natural
to extend it to all the primitive types. This must be done for the sake
of design consistency. The current position is indefensible, and if we
continue to maintain it Jonathan will continue to pick us apart as he
has so abley and irrascibley done for the past few days.
Just my 2000 lira :)
Jim
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Re: Challenge to J.R
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
Can we please just stop this? This whole thing has gone on long enough. I
think we have exhausted this subject far beyond even my most cynical
expectations.
Please.
geir
On 10/24/02 11:05 AM, "Emyr James" <em...@OrbisUK.com> wrote:
> Incidentally, a few months ago JR was off on one when someone accused him
> of not writing Freewanker. He agreed to never bother the velocity-users
> list if he received an apology. That apology was posted and he promised to
> go away.
> WHY ARE YOU BACK?????
> ARGGHHHHHH!!!!!!
>
> At 15:59 24/10/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>> I challenge J.R to post a message to the velocity-USERS list that
>> describes a useful, positive way of using the velocity template engine,
>> and that does not mention Freemaker at all.
>> I really resent receiving posts to this mailing list that have nothing
>> whatsoever to do with using velocity, but are about a mysterious thing
>> called Freemaker that I really couldn't give a f*ck for.
>> If you want to go on about how much better Freemaker is than velocity
>> please do it elsewhere.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> To unsubscribe,
>> e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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>> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>>
>
>
>
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Re: Challenge to J.R
Posted by Emyr James <em...@OrbisUK.com>.
Incidentally, a few months ago JR was off on one when someone accused him
of not writing Freewanker. He agreed to never bother the velocity-users
list if he received an apology. That apology was posted and he promised to
go away.
WHY ARE YOU BACK?????
ARGGHHHHHH!!!!!!
At 15:59 24/10/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>I challenge J.R to post a message to the velocity-USERS list that
>describes a useful, positive way of using the velocity template engine,
>and that does not mention Freemaker at all.
>I really resent receiving posts to this mailing list that have nothing
>whatsoever to do with using velocity, but are about a mysterious thing
>called Freemaker that I really couldn't give a f*ck for.
>If you want to go on about how much better Freemaker is than velocity
>please do it elsewhere.
>
>
>
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>To unsubscribe,
>e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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#End thread(s).
Posted by Matthew Chapman <mc...@franchise.com>.
I am a Velocity user, hence I am on the "Velocity Users List".
I am not a contributer of code, and I rarely use the service - HOWEVER I
do read the emails as many legitimate questions I have, are answered in
the forum. If you want to have non-technical and flaming discussions about
anything, please take them offline.
If this idiotic thread is to continue, you will find yourself with one
less user on this list - not a big deal perhaps, but it leaves a bitter
taste in my mouth, and all those I will talk to.
Let us refrain from slapping each other around, all the while measuring
you manhood by how childish you can make an argument.
let us now _please_ move on.
regards
Matthew Chapman
eMail: mchapman@franchise.com
Phone: 760-943-0080 x 1159
ICQ #: 5428662
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Re: Challenge to J.R
Posted by Emyr James <em...@OrbisUK.com>.
I'm a user.
If I wanted to contribute code or discuss the merits of the engine itself
I'd post on the velocity developers list.
At 17:38 24/10/2002 +0200, you wrote:
>Emyr James wrote:
>
>>I challenge J.R to post a message to the velocity-USERS list that
>>describes a useful, positive way of using the velocity template engine,
>>and that does not mention Freemaker at all.
>
>
>Emyr,
>
>It's easy to challenge other people. Why don't you challenge yourself
>first? Why don't you write something that is useful to other people?
>
>I have quickly scanned all the messages from the last couple of weeks and
>I can't find any useful contribution that you have made.
>
>>
>>I really resent receiving posts to this mailing list that have nothing
>>whatsoever to do with using velocity, but are about a mysterious thing
>>called Freemaker that I really couldn't give a f*ck for.
>
>
>Any given thing that I write, whether it mentions Freemarker or not, will
>be of interest to some people and not to others.
>
>>
>>If you want to go on about how much better Freemaker is than velocity
>>please do it elsewhere.
>
>
>Why don't you guys respond proactively by making Velocity better? I bet
>that you, Emyr, have never contributed a single line of code to the project.
>
>
>Jonathan Revusky
>--
>FreeMarker 2.1 is out! http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/
>FreeMarker-Velocity comparison doc
>http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/fmVsVel.html
>Velocity->FreeMarker template conversion utility
>http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/usCavalry.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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><ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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RE: Challenge to J.R
Posted by Paulo Gaspar <pa...@krankikom.de>.
+1
Please move this discussions with J.R. to private mail if you
really need to add something. This is going for too long.
Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:geirm@optonline.net]
> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:40 PM
> To: velocity-user@jakarta.apache.org; jon@revusky.com
> Subject: Re: Challenge to J.R
>
>
> On 10/24/02 3:36 PM, "Guido Sohne" <gu...@sohne.net> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Oct 24, 2002 at 05:38:31PM +0200, Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> >> It's easy to challenge other people. Why don't you challenge yourself
> >> first? Why don't you write something that is useful to other people?
> >
> > Umm, why don't you go and find something more productive
> > to do than sending junk to this list and causing so much
> > off topic garbage ? I'm tired of reading your stuff because
> > there's nothing about Velocity in it and that's what I
> > read this list for.
> >
> > As I see it, the present challenge is how to get rid of
> > messages from you ...
> >
> >> I have quickly scanned all the messages from the last couple of weeks
> >> and I can't find any useful contribution that you have made.
> >
> > As if you have made any useful contributions yourself in
> > the last few weeks. Quite the contrary, things have gone
> > from interesting threads to bozo land.
> >
> > This is no longer a thread, it is a flame war and a waste
> > of time. I think it's time to put mailing list filters in
> > place.
> >
>
> Please stop this thread. It will just continue on and on and on.
> Jonathan
> should be allowed to respond as I think that's fair, but I hope
> he will also
> not and just let this stop.
>
> So please - everyone. Lets just stop this and get back to discussion of
> Velocity.
>
> geir
>
> --
> Geir Magnusson Jr.
> geirm@adeptra.com +1-203-355-2219 (w)
> Adeptra Inc. +1-203-247-1713 (m)
>
>
>
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Re: Challenge to J.R
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On 10/24/02 3:36 PM, "Guido Sohne" <gu...@sohne.net> wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 24, 2002 at 05:38:31PM +0200, Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>> It's easy to challenge other people. Why don't you challenge yourself
>> first? Why don't you write something that is useful to other people?
>
> Umm, why don't you go and find something more productive
> to do than sending junk to this list and causing so much
> off topic garbage ? I'm tired of reading your stuff because
> there's nothing about Velocity in it and that's what I
> read this list for.
>
> As I see it, the present challenge is how to get rid of
> messages from you ...
>
>> I have quickly scanned all the messages from the last couple of weeks
>> and I can't find any useful contribution that you have made.
>
> As if you have made any useful contributions yourself in
> the last few weeks. Quite the contrary, things have gone
> from interesting threads to bozo land.
>
> This is no longer a thread, it is a flame war and a waste
> of time. I think it's time to put mailing list filters in
> place.
>
Please stop this thread. It will just continue on and on and on. Jonathan
should be allowed to respond as I think that's fair, but I hope he will also
not and just let this stop.
So please - everyone. Lets just stop this and get back to discussion of
Velocity.
geir
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Re: Challenge to J.R
Posted by Guido Sohne <gu...@sohne.net>.
On Thu, Oct 24, 2002 at 05:38:31PM +0200, Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> It's easy to challenge other people. Why don't you challenge yourself
> first? Why don't you write something that is useful to other people?
Umm, why don't you go and find something more productive
to do than sending junk to this list and causing so much
off topic garbage ? I'm tired of reading your stuff because
there's nothing about Velocity in it and that's what I
read this list for.
As I see it, the present challenge is how to get rid of
messages from you ...
> I have quickly scanned all the messages from the last couple of weeks
> and I can't find any useful contribution that you have made.
As if you have made any useful contributions yourself in
the last few weeks. Quite the contrary, things have gone
from interesting threads to bozo land.
This is no longer a thread, it is a flame war and a waste
of time. I think it's time to put mailing list filters in
place.
----------------------------------------------------------
Guido Sohne guido@sohne.net
203, BusyInternet http://sohne.net
----------------------------------------------------------
Indeed, the first noble truth of Buddhism, usually
translated as `all life is suffering,' is more accurately
rendered `life is filled with a sense of pervasive
unsatisfactoriness.'
-- M.D. Epstein
----------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Challenge to J.R
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <jr...@terra.es>.
Emyr James wrote:
> I challenge J.R to post a message to the velocity-USERS list that
> describes a useful, positive way of using the velocity template
> engine, and that does not mention Freemaker at all.
Emyr,
It's easy to challenge other people. Why don't you challenge yourself
first? Why don't you write something that is useful to other people?
I have quickly scanned all the messages from the last couple of weeks
and I can't find any useful contribution that you have made.
>
> I really resent receiving posts to this mailing list that have nothing
> whatsoever to do with using velocity, but are about a mysterious thing
> called Freemaker that I really couldn't give a f*ck for.
Any given thing that I write, whether it mentions Freemarker or not,
will be of interest to some people and not to others.
>
> If you want to go on about how much better Freemaker is than velocity
> please do it elsewhere.
Why don't you guys respond proactively by making Velocity better? I bet
that you, Emyr, have never contributed a single line of code to the project.
Jonathan Revusky
--
FreeMarker 2.1 is out! http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/
FreeMarker-Velocity comparison doc
http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/fmVsVel.html
Velocity->FreeMarker template conversion utility
http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/usCavalry.html
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Challenge to J.R
Posted by Emyr James <em...@OrbisUK.com>.
I challenge J.R to post a message to the velocity-USERS list that describes
a useful, positive way of using the velocity template engine, and that does
not mention Freemaker at all.
I really resent receiving posts to this mailing list that have nothing
whatsoever to do with using velocity, but are about a mysterious thing
called Freemaker that I really couldn't give a f*ck for.
If you want to go on about how much better Freemaker is than velocity
please do it elsewhere.
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Re: [OT] Stop that. (was: Re: The Debate...)
Posted by Martin Jacobson <ma...@libero.it>.
Guillaume Mathe wrote:
> Mr J.R., this is *VELOCITY-USER* mailing list.
> That means, it is neither "freemarker" list, nor
> "i-dont-know-which-template-engine-to-use" list. If we want to consider
> another template engine we will do it on our own.
> Every post you made is:
> - insults
> - trolls
> - "advertisements" for another program
> We did not request any advertisement from your part. And this list is
> *not* the place for product advertisements.
> In fact, this is Unwanted Commercial Emailing, aka SPAM.
> I do not want to consider why you are spamming this otherwise helpful
> and interesting list. The signal / noise ratio dropped to usenet levels.
> Get away.
>
If you find JR's posts irrelevant/offensive, then do like me, and filter
all his messages directly to the trash - that way, the only person whose
time is being wasted is his own.
HTH
Martin
PS: JR - don't bother responding - I won't be reading it :-)
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[OT] Stop that. (was: Re: The Debate...)
Posted by Guillaume Mathe <gm...@smartinnov.com>.
Mr J.R., this is *VELOCITY-USER* mailing list.
That means, it is neither "freemarker" list, nor
"i-dont-know-which-template-engine-to-use" list. If we want to consider
another template engine we will do it on our own.
Every post you made is:
- insults
- trolls
- "advertisements" for another program
We did not request any advertisement from your part. And this list is
*not* the place for product advertisements.
In fact, this is Unwanted Commercial Emailing, aka SPAM.
I do not want to consider why you are spamming this otherwise helpful
and interesting list. The signal / noise ratio dropped to usenet levels.
Get away.
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
[nothing of importance]
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <jr...@terra.es>.
Leos Literak wrote:
> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>
>> The Velocity->FreeMarker template conversion tool has been downloaded
>> off my page 283 times -- actually that's the honest count, 283
>> distinct IP's, more actual downloads. I don't know how to interpret
>> the figure, but I would venture to say that of the 283 people, some
>> of them downloaded it with the specific intention of converting their
>> templates from Velocity->FreeMarker.
>
>
> Well, I was one of them but I haven't switched. I'm just curious of how
> FM works. And for one project I have to use older version of FM.
Well, okay, that leaves 282 other people who downloaded the conversion
tool. Do you figure -- as was claimed -- that *none* of these people are
actually switching?
I was countering the claim that *nobody* would switch from
Velocity->Freemarker. But anyway, I know people have. Daniel Dekany did
and a couple of other people have written me privately thanking me for
my work on FreeMarker and they specifically said that they had been
using Velocity before.
So, that at least some people are indeed switching, that's just a fact.
However, I sense this sort of tendency for the Velocity developers
towards.... defining their own reality. "Nobody needs floating point
numbers on a template", and so on...
>
>>> is not only tasteless but insulting to users of Velocity
>>
>> No, not at all. Your attempts to shut me up are insulting to your
>> user base.
>
> >>These users are not mental invalids and are likely very
> >>capable of making a decision themselves without your benevolent
> >>guidance.
> >Well, that's exactly the point, Jason. Given the information, they
> can make
> > the decision themselves. However, many people are unaware of all the
> options
> > in this space. Many people might only know of JSP and Velocity.
> (Maybe XSLT
> > as well...)
>
> IMHO it is not nice to "steal" users of competetive project on their
> own list.
<LOL>
Are you aware of the history of the Velocity project -- you know, wrt
Webmacro.
Look from about summer of 2000 and all the various activity on the
WebMacro list that coincides with Velocity being introduced. And make no
mistake: certainly at that point in time, Velocity was a
tweedledum-tweedlee clone of Webmacro. Look in particular at some of
the participation of Jon "Monkey see, monkey do" Stevens on the Webmacro
list during that time period.
What I'm doing may be rude, but the Velocity team is simply *not* in a
position to cry foul on this.
> If FM is better, users will switch themself, if it is not, they will
> not even with your allday effort.
Assuming they know about it...
You see, this is why all of this is consummately fair. The only real
result of my telling people about FreeMarker on a Velocity list is that
people can compare the two and decide which one is better for their needs.
(Of course, the other result is that the Velocity people start crying
foul and flaming me, but that's specifically because they want to raise
a lot of smoke and confuse matters.)
>
>
> And honestly: I just wonder, how good FM could be, if you spent your
> time on enhancing it instead of bombarding this list ;-)
Well, it's not just me "bombarding" the list. In these exchanges with
Velocity developers, there is always something written by one of these
guys for every message of mine. Why don't you question that they have so
much free time?
And this would be all the more to the point once you perform a
comparison of the two tools and see how comparatively backward Velocity is.
Jonathan Revusky
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FreeMarker-Velocity comparison doc
http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/fmVsVel.html
Velocity->FreeMarker template conversion utility
http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/usCavalry.html
>
>
> Leos
>
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Leos Literak <li...@seznam.cz>.
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> The Velocity->FreeMarker template conversion tool has been downloaded off my
> page 283 times -- actually that's the honest count, 283 distinct IP's, more
> actual downloads. I don't know how to interpret the figure, but I would
> venture to say that of the 283 people, some of them downloaded it with the
> specific intention of converting their templates from Velocity->FreeMarker.
Well, I was one of them but I haven't switched. I'm just curious of how
FM works. And for one project I have to use older version of FM.
>>is not only tasteless but insulting to users of Velocity
> No, not at all. Your attempts to shut me up are insulting to your user base.
>>These users are not mental invalids and are likely very
>>capable of making a decision themselves without your benevolent
>>guidance.
>Well, that's exactly the point, Jason. Given the information, they can
make
> the decision themselves. However, many people are unaware of all the
options
> in this space. Many people might only know of JSP and Velocity.
(Maybe XSLT
> as well...)
IMHO it is not nice to "steal" users of competetive project on their own
list. If FM is better, users will switch themself, if it is not, they
will not even with your allday effort.
And honestly: I just wonder, how good FM could be, if you spent your
time on enhancing it instead of bombarding this list ;-)
Leos
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
On Saturday 19 October 2002 06:35 pm, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> On 10/19/02 5:20 AM, "Jonathan Revusky" <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> > Look, Jason, in closing, everybody here who was not born yesterday knows
> > that the reason you guys want to shut me up is because you cannot deal
> > with me via legitimate debate. You are tacitly admitting that. Don't you
> > realize the loss of face this involves... how much you are degrading
> > yourselves...
>
> Please don't think my reluctance to argue with you is based on anything but
> my conclusion that you are incapable of rational and civil discourse on
> matters relating to Velocity.
In other words, you get personal with me rather than responding to my
arguments on technical grounds because if you responded to me on technical
grounds, it would get personal.
WOW!
This list would be a great training ground for anybody who wants to learn how
to dissect sophistry.
Quite honestly, I think most people think that your reluctance to debate me on
technical grounds is in fact because you are not up to it. That is certainly
my view, since, AFAICS, it is the only plausible explanation for what we
observe here.
Ciao,
Jonathan Revusky
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On 10/19/02 5:20 AM, "Jonathan Revusky" <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
> Look, Jason, in closing, everybody here who was not born yesterday knows that
> the reason you guys want to shut me up is because you cannot deal with me via
> legitimate debate. You are tacitly admitting that. Don't you realize the loss
> of face this involves... how much you are degrading yourselves...
Please don't think my reluctance to argue with you is based on anything but
my conclusion that you are incapable of rational and civil discourse on
matters relating to Velocity.
geir
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Jon Scott Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 2002/10/19 2:20 AM, "Jonathan Revusky" <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> Jon "Monkey see, Monkey do" Stevens
Hey, I like that! Hahaah...
Nice to see you back here again Jonathan. Your intelligence, professionalism
and maturity hasn't seemed to improve one single bit since the last time I
heard from you.
Don't bother responding cause I won't see it. I just setup a /dev/null
filter for your email address. You aren't worth the waste of time to even
hit the delete key. =)
-Monkey Boy (Eeek eek!)
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
On Saturday 19 October 2002 08:43 am, Jason van Zyl wrote:
> On Fri, 2002-10-18 at 07:48, Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> > Well, you do have a point there. It's quite clear that I have no stake in
> > Velocity introducing decimal arithmetic. In fact, I already stated that I
> > would just as soon it didn't. Well, it could be that I want people who
> > use the Niggle Web App Framework in conjunction with Velocity to have
> > decimal arithmetic in templates.... But actually, nah.. I just prefer for
> > them to switch to FreeMarker...
>
> I think you will find this is not likely to happen.
I love all this double-talk. Don't you mean "I hope...."
<LOL>
Actually, plenty of people have switched from Velocity->FreeMarker. Maybe 3 of
them have written me, but you know, most people don't write you. For
everybody who writes you there are like 30 people at least who don't. At
least.
The Velocity->FreeMarker template conversion tool has been downloaded off my
page 283 times -- actually that's the honest count, 283 distinct IP's, more
actual downloads. I don't know how to interpret the figure, but I would
venture to say that of the 283 people, some of them downloaded it with the
specific intention of converting their templates from Velocity->FreeMarker.
> You may, or may not
> be, very technically gifted but you are certainly the worst
> representative of any OSS project I've ever encountered. Lurking
Pure blather. Lots of people lurk on competing projects' mailing lists. In
fact, it's almost standard modus operandi.
Though I'm not lurking presently, I'm actively participating. In any case,
what about the participation of Jon "Monkey see, Monkey do" Stevens on the
WebMacro mailing list? Or Geir?
> on a
> rival project's mailing list taking pot shots at features you personally
> find lacking
Nice attempt at spin, Jason. The thread on decimal numbers was not initiated
by me, but rather, by a Velocity user who found the feature lacking. You're
really massaging things, trying to create a dishonest representation of
things. The problem is that there is a complete electronic record of all of
this, so your lies (I see no reason to mince my words) will tend to backfire
quite quickly.
> is not only tasteless but insulting to users of Velocity
No, not at all. Your attempts to shut me up are insulting to your user base.
If you respected your users, you would want them to have full information so
that they could decide. Look, basically, you know that Velocity is not
competitive -- I'm sure you know that -- and you know that if people make a
comparison, they will opt for FreeMarker.
> and FreeMarker.
This part is intriguing. Could you elaborate on this?
> These users are not mental invalids and are likely very
> capable of making a decision themselves without your benevolent
> guidance.
Well, that's exactly the point, Jason. Given the information, they can make
the decision themselves. However, many people are unaware of all the options
in this space. Many people might only know of JSP and Velocity. (Maybe XSLT
as well...)
>
> Your tact of trying to present technical arguments lacks all validity
> given the thinly veiled personal and antagonistic attacks.
One of your cohorts, Tim Colson, is coming after me in another part of this
thread. One of his objections to my discourse is my use of the second-person
pronoun "you", which he considers to be insulting -- at least in the right
context.
Well.... okay... BUT you'd think that if he had anything more on me, he'd come
up with it. But no, he's got a complete electronic archive of these recent
exchanges and pretty much all he can come up with is my potentially abusive
usage of the pronoun "you". Doesn't that tell you something?
Meanwhile, I will pose the same question to you that I posed to Geir. This
completely non-technical thread, originally entitled "Bozo Filter Available"
-- who initiated this thread? What was the purpose of it? Meanwhile,
everybody says that I'm the one getting personal and antagonistic.
> It's entirely
> obvious you don't care about users and are using this forum to denigrate
> who and what you don't like. We've all seen previous posts on this list.
> This time around you're a little more PR savvy but your intent is the
> same: that being you don't like Geir for whatever reason.
No, that's not true. Okay, I do dislike Geir, but that's incidental. I dislike
most of the people I've interacted with on ASF mailing lists. Jon "Monkey
see, monkey do" Stevens, yourself.... well... I've had fairly little
interaction with you, but from what I can tell you really are a nasty piece
of work -- I mean, just to keep count of all these dishonest attempts to spin
in this very message I'm replying to.
But that's all incidental. It's not the reason for my posts here. I'm not
enough of a masochist to deliberately seek out the company of people whom I
cannot stand.
> A reason that
> no one wants an explanation for here. So stop baiting Geir in an attempt
> to find an avenue whereby you can explain to us all why you don't like
> Geir.
>
> Attend to your users, we will do the same with ours and I'm certain they
> can figure things out for themselves. They're all capable of choosing
> which tool most suits their needs and they are certainly capable of
> choosing the community they wish to be a part of.
The above is a dishonest argument. People choose Velocity and other
jakarta/apache stuff "by default" in the same way they choose Microsoft
products or IBM in the good old days. It's just what people have heard of
because there's a publicity machine behind it and also there is less need to
justify the choice politically. It's a big ball of wax.
As I said before, the direct comparisons of Velocity and FreeMarker that I
have provided -- though you find them distasteful -- are consummately fair.
Of course, that's probably what's distasteful -- you guys obviously like to
play a rigged game. The idea of level competition on technical merit is
anathema to you; that's pretty obvious.
As for your attending to your users, that's a big joke. It's quite obvious
that you're more interested in justifying whatever decisions you made in the
past than actually helping anybody solve their problems in the present. A
couple of people (whose names I won't mention) complained of this to me in
private over the past few days.
Look, Jason, in closing, everybody here who was not born yesterday knows that
the reason you guys want to shut me up is because you cannot deal with me via
legitimate debate. You are tacitly admitting that. Don't you realize the loss
of face this involves... how much you are degrading yourselves...
I did anticipate that you guys would self-destruct and discredit yourselves,
but the sheer extent of it still does shock me.
Regards,
Jonathan Revusky
--
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FreeMarker-Velocity comparison doc
http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/fmVsVel.html
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Jason van Zyl <ja...@zenplex.com>.
On Fri, 2002-10-18 at 07:48, Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> Well, you do have a point there. It's quite clear that I have no stake in
> Velocity introducing decimal arithmetic. In fact, I already stated that I
> would just as soon it didn't. Well, it could be that I want people who use
> the Niggle Web App Framework in conjunction with Velocity to have decimal
> arithmetic in templates.... But actually, nah.. I just prefer for them to
> switch to FreeMarker...
I think you will find this is not likely to happen. You may, or may not
be, very technically gifted but you are certainly the worst
representative of any OSS project I've ever encountered. Lurking on a
rival project's mailing list taking pot shots at features you personally
find lacking is not only tasteless but insulting to users of Velocity
and FreeMarker. These users are not mental invalids and are likely very
capable of making a decision themselves without your benevolent
guidance.
Your tact of trying to present technical arguments lacks all validity
given the thinly veiled personal and antagonistic attacks. It's entirely
obvious you don't care about users and are using this forum to denigrate
who and what you don't like. We've all seen previous posts on this list.
This time around you're a little more PR savvy but your intent is the
same: that being you don't like Geir for whatever reason. A reason that
no one wants an explanation for here. So stop baiting Geir in an attempt
to find an avenue whereby you can explain to us all why you don't like
Geir.
Attend to your users, we will do the same with ours and I'm certain they
can figure things out for themselves. They're all capable of choosing
which tool most suits their needs and they are certainly capable of
choosing the community they wish to be a part of.
--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
On Friday 18 October 2002 10:12 am, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
> On 10/17/02 6:35 PM, "Paul Smith" <Pa...@lawlex.com.au> wrote:
> > I think a more refined filter is required than a Bozo filter, as I think
> > it might filter me out too (should have seen me code yesterday.... ;) )
> >
> > Personally I don't mind and actually would like to encourage a vigorous
> > debate on any Velocity issues as it is healthy, but I would ask that all
> > participants to think first before putting fingers to keyboards. Have a
> > think about the tone of the message in particular, and the audience it's
> > going to, we're all very pationate people. Stay technical. Some
> > elements of some of the messages I've read seem entirely designed to be
> > inflamatory, even if they are technically based.
> >
> > If you review the archives of this list over the past 6 months, it is
> > also apparant that Jonathan was going to unsubscribe from this list of
> > his own free will (after a similar, but with perhaps a higher
> > DefCon-status series of 'discussions'). It is interesting that he has
> > chosen to return to participate in this list (if he ever really left?),
> > I'll let Jonathon speak for himself on his reasons for returning to the
> > fold.
>
> Jonathan has kept his word. I have been moderating all of his posts
> through.
>
> My position last time (and the time before that...) was that I'm happy to
> discuss templating issues here, so constructive discussion is welcome.
> Other users have expressed the desire that this list just pertain to
> velocity templating issues. We have to strike the balance dynamically, I
> guess.
>
> It's clear that the current discussion is, well, lets say "Brought to you
> by the fine makers of Freemarker..." I don't understand the passion for
> the developers of a competitive templating system to want us to remove one
> of their differentiators, but I guess that¹s why they didn't take up
> careers in marketing.
Well, you do have a point there. It's quite clear that I have no stake in
Velocity introducing decimal arithmetic. In fact, I already stated that I
would just as soon it didn't. Well, it could be that I want people who use
the Niggle Web App Framework in conjunction with Velocity to have decimal
arithmetic in templates.... But actually, nah.. I just prefer for them to
switch to FreeMarker...
Actually, if I had just thought that, when the topic was brought up, the
Velocity team would just burn the midnight oil and address the issue, I
probably would not have brought it up. ;-)
You see, what I anticipated was that, rather than simply acknowledge and
address the issue, the Velocity developers would trot out the same tired old
contrived arguments, and then, when I picked apart the arguments, would start
screaming foul and try to get me to shut up. Of course, in such a
hypothetical scenario, it would become quite *blatantly* obvious that they
were trying to get me to shut up because they could not respond legitimately
to my points.
IOW, I thought the Velocity developers would discredit themselves rather than
rise to the occasion and actually try to compete. They would try to get me to
shut up as a clumsy attempt to mask their own lameness. (And any little child
would see through this.)
But I guess I didn't happen like that. Oh well... social
engineering/experimentation is always fraught with risks... law of unintended
consequences and so on.
No biggie. BTW, if you really do decide to rise to the occasion, and try to
make Velocity competitive with FreeMarker, you have more on your plate than
just implementing decimals if you want to catch up. Particularly since
FreeMarker 2.1 final was released yesterday evening....
Have fun,
Jonathan Revusky
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Terry Steichen <te...@net-frame.com>.
<disgust>Maybe there is a possibility that this guy has decent technical
smarts. It's hard to tell through all the strident ranting he (and some of
his colleages) does. </disgust>
<sad>Even if FM were a great product, I'd pass on it just to avoid the
interaction.</sad>
Terry
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Gabriel Sidler <si...@teamup.com>.
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
...
>
> I have no particular qualms about "marketing" FreeMarker on this list.
> The fact remains that Velocity has an enormous visibility advantage due
> to being part of apache.org. The user base you have managed to build has
> not been as a result of technical merit. I am biased, but anybody can
> independently verify what I say if they so wish: currently, Velocity is
> not remotely competitive with FreeMarker. Nonetheless, the reason that
> we are at such a disadvantage in competing for user base is Velocity's
> built-in visibility advantage as part of apache.org.
Jonathan, you miss a very important point. Superior technology is only
one of several aspects in making a decision for or against a particular
technology. For me, a supportive and constructive community is at least
as important if not more important. Velocity has been that for me in
the past. And, the technology has suited very well my needs.
I don't know anything about the FreeMarker community, but reading your
posts here on this list really raises a big question mark. Your posts
are the worst advertisements I can imaging for FreeMarker. Technically,
I believe that several of your point are valid but the arrogant and
insulting tone of your messages are absolutely unacceptable and are
violating basic etiquette.
Gabe
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On 10/19/02 12:05 PM, "Andy Lee" <ag...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> At 3:41 AM -0400 10/19/02, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>> On 10/18/02 8:35 PM, "Don Quixote" <jr...@terra.es> wrote:
>>> As for the general thing of preventing me or anybody else from bringing
>>> up competing technologies, or harping on Velocity's defects and missing
>>> features, well... why don't you guys just bite the bullet and have a
>>> moderated forum?
>>
>> Senor,
>>
>> For reasons that some list participants don't comprehend, I have been
>> moderating this drivel through.
>
> Geir, I have two theories:
>
> (1) You feel Jonathan's intellectual contributions and valid points
> outweigh the consequences of his social skills. You may even feel
> his provocative behavior (to a point) *enhances* the debate by
> keeping the list on its toes. I am reminded of the way Andy Kaufman
> brilliantly pushed his audiences' buttons. IMO Jon is no dummy and
> no ordinary flamer.
>
It's not like there's anything new or interesting here. It's the same
stuff, just done to market Freemarker. It actually shuts down discussion
because when you don't agree with him, it becomes personal very quickly.
Read the archive.
> (2) You actually *are* Jonathan Revusky. Come to think of it, this
> theory reminds me of Andy Kaufman too. Remember that alter ego he
> had? Maybe the next time I see you I'll say "Hey, Jonathan!" If you
> turn around, I've *got* you!
>
Um, yeah. You got me. I *am* Jonathan Revusky. And you forgot a third
possibility. That Jonathan Revusky is Geir Magnusson.
LOL
Andy, get some sleep.
geir
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geirm@adeptra.com +1-203-355-2219 (w)
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Andy Lee <ag...@earthlink.net>.
At 3:41 AM -0400 10/19/02, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>On 10/18/02 8:35 PM, "Don Quixote" <jr...@terra.es> wrote:
> > As for the general thing of preventing me or anybody else from bringing
>> up competing technologies, or harping on Velocity's defects and missing
>> features, well... why don't you guys just bite the bullet and have a
>> moderated forum?
>
>Senor,
>
>For reasons that some list participants don't comprehend, I have been
>moderating this drivel through.
Geir, I have two theories:
(1) You feel Jonathan's intellectual contributions and valid points
outweigh the consequences of his social skills. You may even feel
his provocative behavior (to a point) *enhances* the debate by
keeping the list on its toes. I am reminded of the way Andy Kaufman
brilliantly pushed his audiences' buttons. IMO Jon is no dummy and
no ordinary flamer.
(2) You actually *are* Jonathan Revusky. Come to think of it, this
theory reminds me of Andy Kaufman too. Remember that alter ego he
had? Maybe the next time I see you I'll say "Hey, Jonathan!" If you
turn around, I've *got* you!
--Andy (new to this list, but watching with interest)
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On 10/19/02 12:40 PM, "Jonathan Revusky" <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
> I mean, don't you realize the transparent hypocrisy of this? This thread was
> initiated specifically in order to bait and insult me, yet you only monitor
> *my* posts and self-righteously talk of your stopping things before they get
> out of hand.
>
<sigh>
It's really easy. Pay attemtion : I let all of your posts through (I just
scan them for obscenity...). Remember, it's only new subscribers and
non-subscriber posts that get moderated.
I figured that you kept your word and didn't resubscribe...
--
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geirm@adeptra.com +1-203-355-2219 (w)
Adeptra Inc. +1-203-247-1713 (m)
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
On Saturday 19 October 2002 05:47 pm, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> On 10/19/02 4:55 AM, "Jonathan Revusky" <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> > On Saturday 19 October 2002 09:41 am, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> >> On 10/18/02 8:35 PM, "Don Quixote" <jr...@terra.es> wrote:
> >>> As for the general thing of preventing me or anybody else from bringing
> >>> up competing technologies, or harping on Velocity's defects and missing
> >>> features, well... why don't you guys just bite the bullet and have a
> >>> moderated forum?
> >>
> >> Senor,
> >>
> >> For reasons that some list participants don't comprehend, I have been
> >> moderating this drivel through.
> >
> > Well, my aggressive use of the second-person pronoun must have got
> > through your moderating filter. You really should have some warning flags
> > when people write "you" too many times in a post.
> >
> > I have one question for you. If you've been moderating all this, how did
> > the first message of this thread, entitled "Bozo Filter Available?" get
> > through?
> >
> > It seems you need some practice at moderating. That message was obvious
> > flame-bait.
>
> It's pretty simple. (Didn't you wnder why your posts had a delay?
> Sometimes it took me a little time to get to my mail this week...)
>
> Moderation on this list only happens for the first post for a subscriber
> until accepted. It keeps the spam off.
>
> All of your posts are being moderated through one by one as I wanted to
> make sure that if things started to get out of hand, it would be easy to
> stop.
But Geir, why did you not stop the initial post in this thread?
I mean, don't you realize the transparent hypocrisy of this? This thread was
initiated specifically in order to bait and insult me, yet you only monitor
*my* posts and self-righteously talk of your stopping things before they get
out of hand.
What about the initial post in this thread entitled "Bozo Filter Available?"
That initial post had the following key characteristics that should have
sparked all warning flags:
1. Devoid of any technical content.
2. Clearly, a personal attack -- referring to someone as a "bozo".
3. The direct intention of starting a flame-war.
Someone (not me) specifically sets out to start a flame-war and you're going
to monitor my messages (and only mine) in order to prevent said flame-war.
I'm sure most people can see through all this phony posturing.
Jonathan Revusky
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RE: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Paulo Gaspar <pa...@krankikom.de>.
I am sure it was you J.R.
I mean... I can find no other candidate that qualifies that highly.
Have fun,
Paulo
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathan Revusky [mailto:revusky@wanadoo.es]
> Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 8:57 PM
> To: Velocity Users List
> Subject: Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
>
>
> On Saturday 19 October 2002 07:28 pm, Terry Steichen wrote:
> > Well, just off the cuff, now that you bring it up, you might
> just qualify.
> > I'll think on it and get back to you (but please don't hold
> your breath).
>
> Oh, I see, you forgot who you were referring to... did a lot of
> acid back in
> the sixties, eh?
>
> Well, if you do later remember who you were referring to when you
> started this
> thread, who the "bozo" in question is, I would still like to know.
>
> You see, if you weren't actually referring to me, then my
> position changes
> pretty radically.
>
> Like, basically, if it's not *me*, I say let's crucify the bastard.
>
> (whoever he is... whatever he supposedly did.... what the f***...)
>
> ;-)
>
> Ciao,
>
> Jonathan Revusky
> --
> FreeMarker 2.1 is out! http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/
> FreeMarker-Velocity comparison doc
> http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/fmVsVel.html
> Velocity->FreeMarker template conversion utility
> http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/usCavalry.html
>
>
>
>
> >
> > Terry
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jonathan Revusky" <jo...@revusky.com>
> > To: "Velocity Users List" <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 1:23 PM
> > Subject: Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
> >
> > On Saturday 19 October 2002 07:11 pm, Terry Steichen wrote:
> > > Hmm.. are you claiming to be one of the 'bozo filter' targets I was
> > > referring to (because I don't recall mentioning names)?
> >
> > Yes, I *was* claiming that. When you referred to a "bozo" and
> "this guy" I
> > believed that you were referring to me. Moreover, I also believe that
> > everybody else who read your post also thought you were referring to me.
> >
> > Okay, this could be a misunderstanding. If that is not the
> case, who were
> > you
> > referring to?
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Jonathan Revusky
>
> --
>
>
> --
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
On Saturday 19 October 2002 07:28 pm, Terry Steichen wrote:
> Well, just off the cuff, now that you bring it up, you might just qualify.
> I'll think on it and get back to you (but please don't hold your breath).
Oh, I see, you forgot who you were referring to... did a lot of acid back in
the sixties, eh?
Well, if you do later remember who you were referring to when you started this
thread, who the "bozo" in question is, I would still like to know.
You see, if you weren't actually referring to me, then my position changes
pretty radically.
Like, basically, if it's not *me*, I say let's crucify the bastard.
(whoever he is... whatever he supposedly did.... what the f***...)
;-)
Ciao,
Jonathan Revusky
--
FreeMarker 2.1 is out! http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/
FreeMarker-Velocity comparison doc
http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/fmVsVel.html
Velocity->FreeMarker template conversion utility
http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/usCavalry.html
>
> Terry
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jonathan Revusky" <jo...@revusky.com>
> To: "Velocity Users List" <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 1:23 PM
> Subject: Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
>
> On Saturday 19 October 2002 07:11 pm, Terry Steichen wrote:
> > Hmm.. are you claiming to be one of the 'bozo filter' targets I was
> > referring to (because I don't recall mentioning names)?
>
> Yes, I *was* claiming that. When you referred to a "bozo" and "this guy" I
> believed that you were referring to me. Moreover, I also believe that
> everybody else who read your post also thought you were referring to me.
>
> Okay, this could be a misunderstanding. If that is not the case, who were
> you
> referring to?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Jonathan Revusky
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Terry Steichen <te...@net-frame.com>.
Well, just off the cuff, now that you bring it up, you might just qualify.
I'll think on it and get back to you (but please don't hold your breath).
Terry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jonathan Revusky" <jo...@revusky.com>
To: "Velocity Users List" <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 1:23 PM
Subject: Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
On Saturday 19 October 2002 07:11 pm, Terry Steichen wrote:
> Hmm.. are you claiming to be one of the 'bozo filter' targets I was
> referring to (because I don't recall mentioning names)?
Yes, I *was* claiming that. When you referred to a "bozo" and "this guy" I
believed that you were referring to me. Moreover, I also believe that
everybody else who read your post also thought you were referring to me.
Okay, this could be a misunderstanding. If that is not the case, who were
you
referring to?
Sincerely,
Jonathan Revusky
--
FreeMarker 2.1 is out! http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/
FreeMarker-Velocity comparison doc
http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/fmVsVel.html
Velocity->FreeMarker template conversion utility
http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/usCavalry.html
>
> Terry
>
> PS: Cheeez, there I go already violating my own suggested strategy of
> silence.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jonathan Revusky" <re...@wanadoo.es>
> To: "Velocity Users List" <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 1:04 PM
> Subject: Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
>
> On Saturday 19 October 2002 06:26 pm, Terry Steichen wrote:
> > Trying to reason with a turkey is futile and causes everyone (myself
> > included) to start gobbling (and filling up mailboxes). Simply ignoring
> > his crowing (whatever its technical content value) is, IMHO, a far more
> > effective strategy (at least until he calms down).
>
> You did not opt to ignore me. You specifically chose to initiate a thread
> with
> an off-topic personal attack. That was the initial post in this thread
> entitled "Bozo Filter Available?"
>
> You specifically chose that route rather than trying to address anything I
> said on legitimate, technical grounds. It is quite clear. There is an
> electronic record of all these exchanges.
>
> Jonathan Revusky
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <jo...@revusky.com>.
On Saturday 19 October 2002 07:11 pm, Terry Steichen wrote:
> Hmm.. are you claiming to be one of the 'bozo filter' targets I was
> referring to (because I don't recall mentioning names)?
Yes, I *was* claiming that. When you referred to a "bozo" and "this guy" I
believed that you were referring to me. Moreover, I also believe that
everybody else who read your post also thought you were referring to me.
Okay, this could be a misunderstanding. If that is not the case, who were you
referring to?
Sincerely,
Jonathan Revusky
--
FreeMarker 2.1 is out! http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/
FreeMarker-Velocity comparison doc
http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/fmVsVel.html
Velocity->FreeMarker template conversion utility
http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/usCavalry.html
>
> Terry
>
> PS: Cheeez, there I go already violating my own suggested strategy of
> silence.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jonathan Revusky" <re...@wanadoo.es>
> To: "Velocity Users List" <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 1:04 PM
> Subject: Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
>
> On Saturday 19 October 2002 06:26 pm, Terry Steichen wrote:
> > Trying to reason with a turkey is futile and causes everyone (myself
> > included) to start gobbling (and filling up mailboxes). Simply ignoring
> > his crowing (whatever its technical content value) is, IMHO, a far more
> > effective strategy (at least until he calms down).
>
> You did not opt to ignore me. You specifically chose to initiate a thread
> with
> an off-topic personal attack. That was the initial post in this thread
> entitled "Bozo Filter Available?"
>
> You specifically chose that route rather than trying to address anything I
> said on legitimate, technical grounds. It is quite clear. There is an
> electronic record of all these exchanges.
>
> Jonathan Revusky
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Terry Steichen <te...@net-frame.com>.
Hmm.. are you claiming to be one of the 'bozo filter' targets I was
referring to (because I don't recall mentioning names)?
Terry
PS: Cheeez, there I go already violating my own suggested strategy of
silence.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jonathan Revusky" <re...@wanadoo.es>
To: "Velocity Users List" <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
On Saturday 19 October 2002 06:26 pm, Terry Steichen wrote:
> Trying to reason with a turkey is futile and causes everyone (myself
> included) to start gobbling (and filling up mailboxes). Simply ignoring
> his crowing (whatever its technical content value) is, IMHO, a far more
> effective strategy (at least until he calms down).
You did not opt to ignore me. You specifically chose to initiate a thread
with
an off-topic personal attack. That was the initial post in this thread
entitled "Bozo Filter Available?"
You specifically chose that route rather than trying to address anything I
said on legitimate, technical grounds. It is quite clear. There is an
electronic record of all these exchanges.
Jonathan Revusky
--
FreeMarker 2.1 is out! http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/
FreeMarker-Velocity comparison doc
http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/fmVsVel.html
Velocity->FreeMarker template conversion utility
http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/usCavalry.html
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
On Saturday 19 October 2002 06:26 pm, Terry Steichen wrote:
> Trying to reason with a turkey is futile and causes everyone (myself
> included) to start gobbling (and filling up mailboxes). Simply ignoring
> his crowing (whatever its technical content value) is, IMHO, a far more
> effective strategy (at least until he calms down).
You did not opt to ignore me. You specifically chose to initiate a thread with
an off-topic personal attack. That was the initial post in this thread
entitled "Bozo Filter Available?"
You specifically chose that route rather than trying to address anything I
said on legitimate, technical grounds. It is quite clear. There is an
electronic record of all these exchanges.
Jonathan Revusky
--
FreeMarker 2.1 is out! http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/
FreeMarker-Velocity comparison doc
http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/fmVsVel.html
Velocity->FreeMarker template conversion utility
http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/usCavalry.html
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Terry Steichen <te...@net-frame.com>.
Trying to reason with a turkey is futile and causes everyone (myself
included) to start gobbling (and filling up mailboxes). Simply ignoring his
crowing (whatever its technical content value) is, IMHO, a far more
effective strategy (at least until he calms down).
Terry
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Andy Lee <ag...@earthlink.net>.
At 11:47 AM -0400 10/19/02, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>On 10/19/02 4:55 AM, "Jonathan Revusky" <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> > It seems you need some practice at moderating. That message was obvious
>> flame-bait.
>>
>
>It's pretty simple. (Didn't you wnder why your posts had a delay?
>Sometimes it took me a little time to get to my mail this week...)
>
>Moderation on this list only happens for the first post for a subscriber
>until accepted. It keeps the spam off.
>
>All of [Jonathan's] posts are being moderated through one by one as
>I wanted to make
>sure that if things started to get out of hand, it would be easy to stop.
This supports my Geir == Jonathan theory, if it's really true that
when Geir disappears for a while, Jonathan mysteriously disappears
too...
--Andy
P.S. I'm *kidding*, as I'm sure Geir knows but maybe not everybody does.
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On 10/19/02 4:55 AM, "Jonathan Revusky" <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> On Saturday 19 October 2002 09:41 am, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>> On 10/18/02 8:35 PM, "Don Quixote" <jr...@terra.es> wrote:
>>> As for the general thing of preventing me or anybody else from bringing
>>> up competing technologies, or harping on Velocity's defects and missing
>>> features, well... why don't you guys just bite the bullet and have a
>>> moderated forum?
>>
>> Senor,
>>
>> For reasons that some list participants don't comprehend, I have been
>> moderating this drivel through.
>
> Well, my aggressive use of the second-person pronoun must have got through
> your moderating filter. You really should have some warning flags when people
> write "you" too many times in a post.
>
> I have one question for you. If you've been moderating all this, how did the
> first message of this thread, entitled "Bozo Filter Available?" get through?
>
> It seems you need some practice at moderating. That message was obvious
> flame-bait.
>
It's pretty simple. (Didn't you wnder why your posts had a delay?
Sometimes it took me a little time to get to my mail this week...)
Moderation on this list only happens for the first post for a subscriber
until accepted. It keeps the spam off.
All of your posts are being moderated through one by one as I wanted to make
sure that if things started to get out of hand, it would be easy to stop.
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr.
geirm@adeptra.com +1-203-355-2219 (w)
Adeptra Inc. +1-203-247-1713 (m)
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
On Saturday 19 October 2002 09:41 am, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> On 10/18/02 8:35 PM, "Don Quixote" <jr...@terra.es> wrote:
> > As for the general thing of preventing me or anybody else from bringing
> > up competing technologies, or harping on Velocity's defects and missing
> > features, well... why don't you guys just bite the bullet and have a
> > moderated forum?
>
> Senor,
>
> For reasons that some list participants don't comprehend, I have been
> moderating this drivel through.
Well, my aggressive use of the second-person pronoun must have got through
your moderating filter. You really should have some warning flags when people
write "you" too many times in a post.
I have one question for you. If you've been moderating all this, how did the
first message of this thread, entitled "Bozo Filter Available?" get through?
It seems you need some practice at moderating. That message was obvious
flame-bait.
Jonathan Revusky
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On 10/18/02 8:35 PM, "Don Quixote" <jr...@terra.es> wrote:
>
> As for the general thing of preventing me or anybody else from bringing
> up competing technologies, or harping on Velocity's defects and missing
> features, well... why don't you guys just bite the bullet and have a
> moderated forum?
Senor,
For reasons that some list participants don't comprehend, I have been
moderating this drivel through.
Gracias,
geir
--
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geirm@adeptra.com +1-203-355-2219 (w)
Adeptra Inc. +1-203-247-1713 (m)
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Terry Steichen <te...@net-frame.com>.
+1
----- Original Message -----
From: "Attila Szegedi" <sz...@freemail.hu>
To: "Velocity Users List" <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 4:41 PM
Subject: Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
> I looked back few days of this list's traffic in my Inbox, and I didn't
see
> a single post from Daniel, so it escapes me what motivated you to post
this.
> Actually, there are posts by Daniel on the dev list, but then your post
> should've gone there and not on the user list, right? And even if it did,
I
> just plain don't get it. Daniel most certainly doesn't fall into the
> "Amplifying Flame Reflector (tm)" category of people. Nor do I think he
did
> anything with his latest posts that could be considered upsetting.
> Altough I respect your anxiety for keeping flame wars away from the list,
> IMHO you've slightly overreacted.
>
> Let's close this topic now for common good.
>
> Cheers,
> Attila.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Terry Steichen" <te...@net-frame.com>
> To: "Velocity Users List" <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>; "Daniel
> Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu>
> Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 7:58 PM
> Subject: Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
>
>
> > Just to remind everyone, this guy (and his FM buddy) has been mouthing
off
> > here on the list before. If you look at this thread (above subject),
> you'll
> > see how incredibly much time he can burn up.
> >
> > Strong suggestion: Do not respond to him. He (and his kind) feeds on
> > response. The more negative the reactions to him, the more the energy
> jolt
> > he seems to get. (It's kind of wierd, but he probably doesn't have
> anything
> > else to do.) Turn him into the Invisible Man and let's see what
happens.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Terry
> >
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Attila Szegedi <sz...@freemail.hu>.
I looked back few days of this list's traffic in my Inbox, and I didn't see
a single post from Daniel, so it escapes me what motivated you to post this.
Actually, there are posts by Daniel on the dev list, but then your post
should've gone there and not on the user list, right? And even if it did, I
just plain don't get it. Daniel most certainly doesn't fall into the
"Amplifying Flame Reflector (tm)" category of people. Nor do I think he did
anything with his latest posts that could be considered upsetting.
Altough I respect your anxiety for keeping flame wars away from the list,
IMHO you've slightly overreacted.
Let's close this topic now for common good.
Cheers,
Attila.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Steichen" <te...@net-frame.com>
To: "Velocity Users List" <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>; "Daniel
Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu>
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
> Just to remind everyone, this guy (and his FM buddy) has been mouthing off
> here on the list before. If you look at this thread (above subject),
you'll
> see how incredibly much time he can burn up.
>
> Strong suggestion: Do not respond to him. He (and his kind) feeds on
> response. The more negative the reactions to him, the more the energy
jolt
> he seems to get. (It's kind of wierd, but he probably doesn't have
anything
> else to do.) Turn him into the Invisible Man and let's see what happens.
>
> Regards,
>
> Terry
>
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu>.
Friday, February 28, 2003, 7:58:56 PM, Terry Steichen wrote:
> Just to remind everyone, this guy (and his FM buddy) has been mouthing off
> here on the list before. If you look at this thread (above subject), you'll
> see how incredibly much time he can burn up.
??? What... why... this was that old flame-war. Why do you bring it up
now? Did I said something bad nowadays?
--
Best regards,
Daniel Dekany
> Strong suggestion: Do not respond to him. He (and his kind) feeds on
> response. The more negative the reactions to him, the more the energy jolt
> he seems to get. (It's kind of wierd, but he probably doesn't have anything
> else to do.) Turn him into the Invisible Man and let's see what happens.
>
> Regards,
>
> Terry
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu>
> To: "Velocity Users List" <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 3:10 PM
> Subject: Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
>
>
>> Sunday, October 20, 2002, 7:30:51 PM, Paulo Gaspar wrote:
>>
>> > Daniel,
>> >
>> >
>> > It is hard to forget the mess that J.R. already started here in the
>> > past (even before FM, me thinks). His attitude his not a recent
>> > issue. People still remember how it was before and it is easy to
>> > get that feeling of "oh no! here we go again!" very fast these days.
>>
>> If some Vel. people always pour petrol on the flaming match, people
>> see that it is always big smoke here if that man with the flaming
>> match comes...
>>
>> > The discussion about floats is older than you think. I am on your
>> > side on the need for handling floats (any numbers) and dates, but I
>> > know for a fact that there is a philosophical reason to avoid that.
>> >
>> >
>> > You do not know Geir so well, but I assure I have never seen him
>> > avoiding to discuss an alternative just because it is against his
>> > current beliefs.
>>
>> I don't know how well you know Geir, but I have debated with him a lot
>> before I have left this list (I didn't know FM in those days; this is
>> the 2nd time that I'm here). And, you know, I feed up with those
>> nonsense "philosophical reasons". I have to say that despite the fact
>> that Jonathan is sometimes gruff (but at least honest :)), he will
>> probably never upset me so much than Geir did for several times in the
>> past.
>>
>> > BUT you must bring something fresh to the discussion. If you repeat
>> > arguments that did not stand before, he will naturally tend to assume
>> > that those arguments will not stand now either.
>> [snip]
>>
>> The problem is that those arguments was *never* refused with valid
>> counter-arguments. They was always refused with some philosophical
>> waffle. But, sure. You are right that it is useless to bring up the
>> same arguments again and again... because it is a hopeless thing. I
>> wondered why Velocity users keep this situation alive, but perhaps
>> because people who realize what's going on here, simply leave Velocity
>> and find another product; nobody wants to be the target of the several
>> Geir "fans", so nobody dares to say negative things about the core
>> dev. team here.
>>
>>
>> --
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>>
>>
>
>
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RE: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by pero <me...@gmx.de>.
??? At least for Daniel I cannot see, that he's done
evil things lately... :) He does not overpromote freemarker
nor does he flame. I don't like these "don't react on him"
things on lists that much. And much more less if there is
no real reason for that.
So let's concentrate on velocity, the user's questions
and the answers and not any personal stuff.
My $0.02
Peter
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Terry Steichen [mailto:terry@net-frame.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 28, 2003 7:59 PM
> To: Velocity Users List; Daniel Dekany
> Subject: Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
>
>
> Just to remind everyone, this guy (and his FM buddy) has been
> mouthing off here on the list before. If you look at this
> thread (above subject), you'll see how incredibly much time
> he can burn up.
>
> Strong suggestion: Do not respond to him. He (and his kind)
> feeds on response. The more negative the reactions to him,
> the more the energy jolt he seems to get. (It's kind of
> wierd, but he probably doesn't have anything else to do.)
> Turn him into the Invisible Man and let's see what happens.
>
> Regards,
>
> Terry
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu>
> To: "Velocity Users List" <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 3:10 PM
> Subject: Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
>
>
> > Sunday, October 20, 2002, 7:30:51 PM, Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> >
> > > Daniel,
> > >
> > >
> > > It is hard to forget the mess that J.R. already started
> here in the
> > > past (even before FM, me thinks). His attitude his not a recent
> > > issue. People still remember how it was before and it is
> easy to get
> > > that feeling of "oh no! here we go again!" very fast these days.
> >
> > If some Vel. people always pour petrol on the flaming match, people
> > see that it is always big smoke here if that man with the flaming
> > match comes...
> >
> > > The discussion about floats is older than you think. I am on your
> > > side on the need for handling floats (any numbers) and
> dates, but I
> > > know for a fact that there is a philosophical reason to
> avoid that.
> > >
> > >
> > > You do not know Geir so well, but I assure I have never seen him
> > > avoiding to discuss an alternative just because it is against his
> > > current beliefs.
> >
> > I don't know how well you know Geir, but I have debated
> with him a lot
> > before I have left this list (I didn't know FM in those
> days; this is
> > the 2nd time that I'm here). And, you know, I feed up with those
> > nonsense "philosophical reasons". I have to say that
> despite the fact
> > that Jonathan is sometimes gruff (but at least honest :)), he will
> > probably never upset me so much than Geir did for several
> times in the
> > past.
> >
> > > BUT you must bring something fresh to the discussion. If
> you repeat
> > > arguments that did not stand before, he will naturally tend to
> > > assume that those arguments will not stand now either.
> > [snip]
> >
> > The problem is that those arguments was *never* refused with valid
> > counter-arguments. They was always refused with some philosophical
> > waffle. But, sure. You are right that it is useless to bring up the
> > same arguments again and again... because it is a hopeless thing. I
> > wondered why Velocity users keep this situation alive, but perhaps
> > because people who realize what's going on here, simply
> leave Velocity
> > and find another product; nobody wants to be the target of
> the several
> > Geir "fans", so nobody dares to say negative things about the core
> > dev. team here.
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >
> >
>
>
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>
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Terry Steichen <te...@net-frame.com>.
Just to remind everyone, this guy (and his FM buddy) has been mouthing off
here on the list before. If you look at this thread (above subject), you'll
see how incredibly much time he can burn up.
Strong suggestion: Do not respond to him. He (and his kind) feeds on
response. The more negative the reactions to him, the more the energy jolt
he seems to get. (It's kind of wierd, but he probably doesn't have anything
else to do.) Turn him into the Invisible Man and let's see what happens.
Regards,
Terry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu>
To: "Velocity Users List" <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
> Sunday, October 20, 2002, 7:30:51 PM, Paulo Gaspar wrote:
>
> > Daniel,
> >
> >
> > It is hard to forget the mess that J.R. already started here in the
> > past (even before FM, me thinks). His attitude his not a recent
> > issue. People still remember how it was before and it is easy to
> > get that feeling of "oh no! here we go again!" very fast these days.
>
> If some Vel. people always pour petrol on the flaming match, people
> see that it is always big smoke here if that man with the flaming
> match comes...
>
> > The discussion about floats is older than you think. I am on your
> > side on the need for handling floats (any numbers) and dates, but I
> > know for a fact that there is a philosophical reason to avoid that.
> >
> >
> > You do not know Geir so well, but I assure I have never seen him
> > avoiding to discuss an alternative just because it is against his
> > current beliefs.
>
> I don't know how well you know Geir, but I have debated with him a lot
> before I have left this list (I didn't know FM in those days; this is
> the 2nd time that I'm here). And, you know, I feed up with those
> nonsense "philosophical reasons". I have to say that despite the fact
> that Jonathan is sometimes gruff (but at least honest :)), he will
> probably never upset me so much than Geir did for several times in the
> past.
>
> > BUT you must bring something fresh to the discussion. If you repeat
> > arguments that did not stand before, he will naturally tend to assume
> > that those arguments will not stand now either.
> [snip]
>
> The problem is that those arguments was *never* refused with valid
> counter-arguments. They was always refused with some philosophical
> waffle. But, sure. You are right that it is useless to bring up the
> same arguments again and again... because it is a hopeless thing. I
> wondered why Velocity users keep this situation alive, but perhaps
> because people who realize what's going on here, simply leave Velocity
> and find another product; nobody wants to be the target of the several
> Geir "fans", so nobody dares to say negative things about the core
> dev. team here.
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Martin van Niekerk <ma...@realsystems.co.za>.
I would like to apologise for my remarks directed towards Jon on Friday. It
was discourteous it should have been made in private and not on a public
mailing list.
Regards
Martin
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RE: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Paulo Gaspar <pa...@krankikom.de>.
> same arguments again and again... because it is a hopeless thing. I
> wondered why Velocity users keep this situation alive, but perhaps
> because people who realize what's going on here, simply leave Velocity
> and find another product; nobody wants to be the target of the several
> Geir "fans", so nobody dares to say negative things about the core
> dev. team here.
Daniel, I never have a problem to point out negative things where they
exist. Sometimes I even have too less of a problem.
However, I do not find many people more reasonable than Geir either
inside or outside Open Source projects. Of course that he has his own
beliefs and that he is a bit stubborn, but at least he is open to change
his mind.
Anyway, there will be almost no project that will completely satisfy all
you want from it, simply because no one wants exactly the same things.
But with Open Source you can still fork, or find a project that is
closer to what you believe being the "right way" (TM).
I would also prefer having the floats and a couple of other things, but
keep in mind that Geir really DOES change his mind from time to time.
Example:
He was the main opposer to the introspection customization I was asking
for some time (being able to make you own introspectors with your own
introspection rules) but he was the one that ended up implementing the
support for it.
The fact that he does not buy what you want to sell him dos not turn him
immediatly into a bad guy.
Do you want to know why he has fans?
- Look at the way he handled past controversy in the mailing lists
archives;
- Look at the change log of Velocity and keep an eye on who coded or
documented what in the last years.
And then he never turned "violent" when someone goes against his beliefs
or even when someone plays a bit rough on him... very unlike our J.R
"friend".
Have fun,
Paulo
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel Dekany [mailto:ddekany@freemail.hu]
> Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 10:10 PM
> To: Velocity Users List
> Subject: Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
>
>
> Sunday, October 20, 2002, 7:30:51 PM, Paulo Gaspar wrote:
>
> > Daniel,
> >
> >
> > It is hard to forget the mess that J.R. already started here in the
> > past (even before FM, me thinks). His attitude his not a recent
> > issue. People still remember how it was before and it is easy to
> > get that feeling of "oh no! here we go again!" very fast these days.
>
> If some Vel. people always pour petrol on the flaming match, people
> see that it is always big smoke here if that man with the flaming
> match comes...
>
> > The discussion about floats is older than you think. I am on your
> > side on the need for handling floats (any numbers) and dates, but I
> > know for a fact that there is a philosophical reason to avoid that.
> >
> >
> > You do not know Geir so well, but I assure I have never seen him
> > avoiding to discuss an alternative just because it is against his
> > current beliefs.
>
> I don't know how well you know Geir, but I have debated with him a lot
> before I have left this list (I didn't know FM in those days; this is
> the 2nd time that I'm here). And, you know, I feed up with those
> nonsense "philosophical reasons". I have to say that despite the fact
> that Jonathan is sometimes gruff (but at least honest :)), he will
> probably never upset me so much than Geir did for several times in the
> past.
>
> > BUT you must bring something fresh to the discussion. If you repeat
> > arguments that did not stand before, he will naturally tend to assume
> > that those arguments will not stand now either.
> [snip]
>
> The problem is that those arguments was *never* refused with valid
> counter-arguments. They was always refused with some philosophical
> waffle. But, sure. You are right that it is useless to bring up the
> same arguments again and again... because it is a hopeless thing. I
> wondered why Velocity users keep this situation alive, but perhaps
> because people who realize what's going on here, simply leave Velocity
> and find another product; nobody wants to be the target of the several
> Geir "fans", so nobody dares to say negative things about the core
> dev. team here.
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
--
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu>.
Sunday, October 20, 2002, 7:30:51 PM, Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> Daniel,
>
>
> It is hard to forget the mess that J.R. already started here in the
> past (even before FM, me thinks). His attitude his not a recent
> issue. People still remember how it was before and it is easy to
> get that feeling of "oh no! here we go again!" very fast these days.
If some Vel. people always pour petrol on the flaming match, people
see that it is always big smoke here if that man with the flaming
match comes...
> The discussion about floats is older than you think. I am on your
> side on the need for handling floats (any numbers) and dates, but I
> know for a fact that there is a philosophical reason to avoid that.
>
>
> You do not know Geir so well, but I assure I have never seen him
> avoiding to discuss an alternative just because it is against his
> current beliefs.
I don't know how well you know Geir, but I have debated with him a lot
before I have left this list (I didn't know FM in those days; this is
the 2nd time that I'm here). And, you know, I feed up with those
nonsense "philosophical reasons". I have to say that despite the fact
that Jonathan is sometimes gruff (but at least honest :)), he will
probably never upset me so much than Geir did for several times in the
past.
> BUT you must bring something fresh to the discussion. If you repeat
> arguments that did not stand before, he will naturally tend to assume
> that those arguments will not stand now either.
[snip]
The problem is that those arguments was *never* refused with valid
counter-arguments. They was always refused with some philosophical
waffle. But, sure. You are right that it is useless to bring up the
same arguments again and again... because it is a hopeless thing. I
wondered why Velocity users keep this situation alive, but perhaps
because people who realize what's going on here, simply leave Velocity
and find another product; nobody wants to be the target of the several
Geir "fans", so nobody dares to say negative things about the core
dev. team here.
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On 10/20/02 1:30 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <pa...@krankikom.de> wrote:
> Daniel,
>
>
> It is hard to forget the mess that J.R. already started here in the
> past (even before FM, me thinks). His attitude his not a recent
> issue. People still remember how it was before and it is easy to
> get that feeling of "oh no! here we go again!" very fast these days.
>
> The discussion about floats is older than you think. I am on your
> side on the need for handling floats (any numbers) and dates, but I
> know for a fact that there is a philosophical reason to avoid that.
>
>
> You do not know Geir so well, but I assure I have never seen him
> avoiding to discuss an alternative just because it is against his
> current beliefs.
The most stunning part of this whole donnybrook is that I'm actually on the
"put floating point support in comparisons" camp.
geir
>
> BUT you must bring something fresh to the discussion. If you repeat
> arguments that did not stand before, he will naturally tend to assume
> that those arguments will not stand now either.
>
>
> Have fun,
> Paulo
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Daniel Dekany [mailto:ddekany@freemail.hu]
>> Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 4:11 PM
>> To: Velocity Users List
>> Subject: Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
>>
>>
>> Sunday, October 20, 2002, 7:35:04 AM, bob mcwhirter wrote:
>>
>> ...
>>
>> Probably you had no time to follow this whole stupid debate. Jonathan
>> did exactly things like "Well, you know that'd be simple in dom4j
>> using the ElementHandler interface..." (that's a different question
>> that IMO he overdid it...) The brow-beating was mainly started by
>> Velocity people... you know, they stared a false-technical discussion
>> but they just said more and more nonsense things (which is tiresome
>> for us in itself; sure, some answers of us was cutting because of
>> this). Then, since it was too obvious that they are just started to
>> debate to hit-back for some fictitious injury and they have not real
>> technical points, *they* started the real brow-beating, to discredit
>> Jonathan (good old well-tried method used in politic) and FM people in
>> general, stared "bozo" things, etc.
>>
>>
>> --
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr.
geirm@adeptra.com +1-203-355-2219 (w)
Adeptra Inc. +1-203-247-1713 (m)
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RE: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Paulo Gaspar <pa...@krankikom.de>.
Daniel,
It is hard to forget the mess that J.R. already started here in the
past (even before FM, me thinks). His attitude his not a recent
issue. People still remember how it was before and it is easy to
get that feeling of "oh no! here we go again!" very fast these days.
The discussion about floats is older than you think. I am on your
side on the need for handling floats (any numbers) and dates, but I
know for a fact that there is a philosophical reason to avoid that.
You do not know Geir so well, but I assure I have never seen him
avoiding to discuss an alternative just because it is against his
current beliefs.
BUT you must bring something fresh to the discussion. If you repeat
arguments that did not stand before, he will naturally tend to assume
that those arguments will not stand now either.
Have fun,
Paulo
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel Dekany [mailto:ddekany@freemail.hu]
> Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 4:11 PM
> To: Velocity Users List
> Subject: Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
>
>
> Sunday, October 20, 2002, 7:35:04 AM, bob mcwhirter wrote:
>
> ...
>
> Probably you had no time to follow this whole stupid debate. Jonathan
> did exactly things like "Well, you know that'd be simple in dom4j
> using the ElementHandler interface..." (that's a different question
> that IMO he overdid it...) The brow-beating was mainly started by
> Velocity people... you know, they stared a false-technical discussion
> but they just said more and more nonsense things (which is tiresome
> for us in itself; sure, some answers of us was cutting because of
> this). Then, since it was too obvious that they are just started to
> debate to hit-back for some fictitious injury and they have not real
> technical points, *they* started the real brow-beating, to discredit
> Jonathan (good old well-tried method used in politic) and FM people in
> general, stared "bozo" things, etc.
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu>.
Sunday, October 20, 2002, 7:35:04 AM, bob mcwhirter wrote:
[snip]
> I don't argue. I give facts when I feel someone isn't aware of them. Then
> I shut the hell up. ie. "Well, you know that'd be simple in dom4j using the
> ElementHandler interface...". Then, nothing more is said. I assume that
> I've given enough information for a smart and motvated developer to then
> delve deeper and make his own decisions. Brow-beating and chest-beating
> just don't work.
[snip]
Probably you had no time to follow this whole stupid debate. Jonathan
did exactly things like "Well, you know that'd be simple in dom4j
using the ElementHandler interface..." (that's a different question
that IMO he overdid it...) The brow-beating was mainly started by
Velocity people... you know, they stared a false-technical discussion
but they just said more and more nonsense things (which is tiresome
for us in itself; sure, some answers of us was cutting because of
this). Then, since it was too obvious that they are just started to
debate to hit-back for some fictitious injury and they have not real
technical points, *they* started the real brow-beating, to discredit
Jonathan (good old well-tried method used in politic) and FM people in
general, stared "bozo" things, etc.
--
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RE: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Paulo Gaspar <pa...@krankikom.de>.
+1
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bob mcwhirter [mailto:bob@werken.com]
> Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 7:35 AM
> To: Velocity Users List; jon@revusky.com
> Subject: Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
>
>
>
> > Well, do you not realize that attempting to shut me up is a tacit
> > admission of your own inferiority? I mean, doesn't it seem
> reasonable to
> > say, that if you guys had any genuine self-respect, you would rise to
> > the occasion and attempt to compete with us on technical merit?
>
> No. Not in the least. Do you not realize that the majority of readers
> of this list care not a diddle about this discussion. Most of us have
> selected, for whatever reason, to use Velocity. And we look to this
> list for assistence with Velocity-related problems. We're not necessarily
> looking to increase our development costs and change tools mid-stream
> regardless of technical merits (or lack there of).
>
> What is the charter of this list? Who are the customers of this list?
> Are you doing any of them any favors?
>
> There is a right way and a wrong way to address topics on a 'competitor's'
> list. I have been known to promote dom4j on the JDOM list. So far, I've
> managed to piss off neither Jason'n'Brett or the other JDOM users.
>
> How?
>
> I don't argue. I give facts when I feel someone isn't aware of
> them. Then
> I shut the hell up. ie. "Well, you know that'd be simple in
> dom4j using the
> ElementHandler interface...". Then, nothing more is said. I assume that
> I've given enough information for a smart and motvated developer to then
> delve deeper and make his own decisions. Brow-beating and chest-beating
> just don't work.
>
> -bob
> (editing my killfile)
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by bob mcwhirter <bo...@werken.com>.
> Well, do you not realize that attempting to shut me up is a tacit
> admission of your own inferiority? I mean, doesn't it seem reasonable to
> say, that if you guys had any genuine self-respect, you would rise to
> the occasion and attempt to compete with us on technical merit?
No. Not in the least. Do you not realize that the majority of readers
of this list care not a diddle about this discussion. Most of us have
selected, for whatever reason, to use Velocity. And we look to this
list for assistence with Velocity-related problems. We're not necessarily
looking to increase our development costs and change tools mid-stream
regardless of technical merits (or lack there of).
What is the charter of this list? Who are the customers of this list?
Are you doing any of them any favors?
There is a right way and a wrong way to address topics on a 'competitor's'
list. I have been known to promote dom4j on the JDOM list. So far, I've
managed to piss off neither Jason'n'Brett or the other JDOM users.
How?
I don't argue. I give facts when I feel someone isn't aware of them. Then
I shut the hell up. ie. "Well, you know that'd be simple in dom4j using the
ElementHandler interface...". Then, nothing more is said. I assume that
I've given enough information for a smart and motvated developer to then
delve deeper and make his own decisions. Brow-beating and chest-beating
just don't work.
-bob
(editing my killfile)
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <jr...@terra.es>.
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>On 10/18/02 3:41 PM, "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Friday, October 18, 2002, 10:12:50 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>
>>>I don't understand the passion for the
>>>developers of a competitive templating system to want us to remove one of
>>>their differentiators, but I guess that¹s why they didn't take up careers in
>>>marketing.
>>>
>>>
>>[snip]
>>
>><OT>
>>I just can't lave this paragraph without answer...
>>
>>
>>
>
>Ok.
>
>
>
>>Your paragraph reflects rather anti-free-software approach. Free
>>software is not about bear down other projects; it is about develop
>>better tools for people.
>>
>>
>
>Then why does it seem like there is an anti-Velocity obsession at
>FreeMarker? There's a conversion tool, a differentiation page. Anything
>else?
>
Are you asking in a sincere way why we have these things?
Well, you should know. You have a Webmacro->Velocity template conversion
tool. I think that what gave me the idea! I believe you also have a page
that contrasts Velocity with other tools in the space.
But okay, you ask why we have these things and I'll answer:
The conversion tool you refer to is to help people convert. The
comparison page is to help people compare.
<shrug>
>>I don't care if less people use FM *because
>>Velocity has been improved to a better tool* (I don't say "we don't
>>care", since I don't know Jonathan's and Attila's exact opinion). It
>>is not bad for me if Velocity becomes to a better tool, not even if it
>>outstrips FreeMarker (However, frankly, I don't think it will happen;
>>currently Velocity lagging far behind FreeMarker 2.1, and it seems
>>that the gap will grow further). I will support the tool what I find
>>better.
>>
>>
>
>Come on. Lets stop with the posturing. Jonathan is very transparently
>trying to market FreeMarker. If I recall from the last time he tried this,
>he was very explicit about acknowledging what he was doing. I'll see if I
>can find a link.
>
I have no particular qualms about "marketing" FreeMarker on this list.
The fact remains that Velocity has an enormous visibility advantage due
to being part of apache.org. The user base you have managed to build has
not been as a result of technical merit. I am biased, but anybody can
independently verify what I say if they so wish: currently, Velocity is
not remotely competitive with FreeMarker. Nonetheless, the reason that
we are at such a disadvantage in competing for user base is Velocity's
built-in visibility advantage as part of apache.org.
Well, cutting to the chase: I have no more qualms about telling people
about FreeMarker on a Velocity list than I would in telling people about
FreeMarker (or Velocity even for that matter) on a JSP list. When the
other technology is both utterly inferior and also has such a ridiculous
visibility advantage, why should I feel any qualms?
Moreover, it's completely fair. For all the whining, groaning and
moaning that one observes here, there is no genuine grievance. The whole
thing is consummately fair. People can compare the tools and make the
decision for themselves. In fact, it seems embarassingly clear that this
is precisely what many Velocity people do not want.
Basically, it would seem that you are terrified of anything resembling
fair competition. You know, this whole thing actually reminds me of
Microsoft exhorting other companies to stop whining and compete.
(Except, Microsoft's core products come bundled with every new desktop
computer. How do you compete with that? ;-))
When the competition is on such a non-level playing field in the other
guy's advantage, why should I pay much heed to that competitor's
attempts to "cry foul"?
It just does not make any sense to me...
>As to 'better', I think you hit the nail on the head - use the tool that you
>think is better. If you think FreeMarker is better, why all this time and
>energy spent bashing us here at Velocity? You have made direct insults -
>
Which insults are you referring to?
This thread, entitled originally "Bozo Filter Available" was initiated
specifically in order to bait and insult me. (Do you deny that?)
I don't recall initiating a non-technical thread with the sole goal of
insulting another person.
I only recall being on the receiving end of such behavior.
>you may not have meant them that way, but they could have been construed as
>attempting to insult.
>
We have a superior product, Geir. We have no need to engage in personal
insults.
The typical pattern is that I simply point out things lacking in
Velocity and that FreeMarker has, and you guys have no legitimate
response, so you resort to insults. That, and pretentious speeches about
"model-view separation" which most everybody probably sees for what it
is: a bunch of waffle to hide how inferior your product currently is.
>As for your comment about other projects :
>
>You may not realize it, but this is our third visit from Jonathan to this
>list.
>
>This round started ok - the usual pattern of some gratuitous attempt at
>making some relevant point related to templating or Velocity, and then the
>freemarker plug. I think I once offered a Velocity template to make it
>easier for him. :)
>
>I think it's cool if the freemarker people would post announcements here
>about freemarker releases and such, but just posting message after message
>noting freemarker capabilities is, I believe, counter productive to his
>intent.
>
And why do you believe that?
>It's not my problem until he becomes abusive, which he does (and now
>has) in an absolutely predictable way, and then we have to decide what to do
>about it.
>
So, your read on it is that I just start gratuitously insulting people.
They don't insult me first.
Who started this thread, Geir?
> The current suggestions are to just cut him off. I think most
>people just put him in their real or virtual killfile. If (and when) I
>threw him off the list, I am sure it would be added to his ever-growing list
>of krimes I appear to be guilty of, but that's a cross I have to bear I
>
Well, do you not realize that attempting to shut me up is a tacit
admission of your own inferiority? I mean, doesn't it seem reasonable to
say, that if you guys had any genuine self-respect, you would rise to
the occasion and attempt to compete with us on technical merit?
Not only is that not your reaction, it seems that this does not even
occur to you to react that way. You simply discuss ways to "shut me up".
I can't believe that I'm the only person who finds this utterly pathetic.
>guess.
>
>
>
>>Also, I guess the main reasons of our moderate success compared to the
>>success of Velocity is that:
>>- We are not hosted by apache.org. You see, apache.org is well-known
>>place, also it gives a lot of credit to your product (thanks to famous
>>and great products like Apache httpd).
>>- FreeMarker 2 is very young compared to Velocity (the FM 2 series is
>>much better than FM 1 was). Probably later it will be more well-known.
>>(Neither reason is the mistake of current FM developers.)
>>
>>
>
>I am sure that FreeMarker 2 is a very fine package. I know of Attila's
>work, which I think is excellent. Jonathan seems to think his work is
>great, and I don't know anything to the contrary. I don't know about your
>contributions to freemarker, but I am sure they are valuable as you appear
>to be interested and sincere. (Maybe you should ask to have your name added
>to the "Who we are" page?)
>
Nice bit of attempt at slimey innuendo there... ;-)
Completely off the mark though. Daniel doesn't need to ask for his name
to be added. You see, he's got CVS access. He can add himself whenever
he wants. Probably just hasn't got around to it...
>
>I do wonder about a syntax that mimics XML w/ the pointy brackets, but
>doesn't seem to be well formed, thus making it appear difficult to use with
>XML. <if ...> <else> </if> - seems like you would need to shove a </else>
>somewhere... But it's just intellectual curiosity - I'll ask Attila someday
>when I remember - and I certainly am not going to spooge the FreeMarker list
>about this. You guys clearly have a reason for doing it this way, the users
>don't seem to care, and that's just peachy with me.
>
We have largely addressed this problem now in FreeMarker 2.1. There is
an alternative syntax you can use via:
<#if ...> and so on, where the directives all start with <# instead of <.
By default, the # is optional, but we have "strict syntax mode" which
enforces the newer syntax.
<#....> is never valid HTML or XML syntax, so there should be less
tendency for there to a conflict with markup. This fine idea came from
Daniel Dekany, BTW.
Anyway, I think your question is based on a misconception. The FM syntax
uses pointy brackets but there is no need for FreeMarker tags to be well
formed XML anyway. Never has been. It's kind of a big red herring.
You guys will be rid of me soon. I have been having a lot of fun here. I
find this very amusing really, but that effect will wear off. And I do
have better things to do.
As for the general thing of preventing me or anybody else from bringing
up competing technologies, or harping on Velocity's defects and missing
features, well... why don't you guys just bite the bullet and have a
moderated forum?
Then you can filter out the critical messages and... generally... go
back to having a nice mutual admiration club... and.... jerk each other
off until the end of time...
Okay, you'll jump on that last bit and say it's insulting. Okay, but
seriously, that basically seems to be what people want. So why don't you
just do that?
One thing that any lurker would take away from all these exchanges is
that you guys are not really very interested in improving Velocity,
making it more useful to people. I mean, quite literally, if anybody
points out a deficiency, the immediate reaction to explain it away,
often in some really strange theoretical way -- but almost never to
address the problem.
Anyway, I hope this has been a fruitful exchange of viewpoints.
Best Regards,
Jonathan Revusky
--
FreeMarker 2.1 is out! http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/
FreeMarker-Velocity comparison doc
http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/fmVsVel.html
Velocity->FreeMarker template conversion utility
http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/usCavalry.html
>
>
>
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu>.
Saturday, October 19, 2002, 6:04:10 PM, Jonah Benton wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu>
> To: "Velocity Users List" <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 9:43 AM
> Subject: Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
>
> <snip>
> :
> : Well, I would call this habit "annoying", but it is cleanly not the
> : "bashing" of Veloicty or attack against Velocity. I said him that he
> : *overdoes* this thing, but he keeps saying that, because of the unfair
> : advantage of Vel. (i.e. it is hosted by apache.org) he has no better
> : choice. But I don't think that doing this thing in general is bad.
> :
>
> Daniel,
>
> I think you've hit on the crux of the matter, if you are indeed
> interpreting or presenting his comments accurately. The only problem
> here is the perception of unfairness, and the extent to which the
> resulting bitterness is presented to the list, whether or not it's
> directed at specific people.
>
> I think though that you're mistaken about your last statement, in
> that- it is bad, in the sense that in broader terms, Jonathon is
> employing the same strategy for getting business that programmers
> and technology firms have consistently failed with for 40 years. I
> don't mean beating potential clients and other vendors over the head
> with repeated, redundant claims of technical superiority- that
> obviously isn't the best strategy, but in itself that isn't what's
> objectionable.
[snip]
I meant with the last sentence that comparing FM with Vel. on the Vel.
list is not bad in itself. Doing it always and repeated is the bad
thing.
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Jonah Benton <jo...@jonah.com>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu>
To: "Velocity Users List" <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
<snip>
:
: Well, I would call this habit "annoying", but it is cleanly not the
: "bashing" of Veloicty or attack against Velocity. I said him that he
: *overdoes* this thing, but he keeps saying that, because of the unfair
: advantage of Vel. (i.e. it is hosted by apache.org) he has no better
: choice. But I don't think that doing this thing in general is bad.
:
Daniel,
I think you've hit on the crux of the matter, if you are indeed interpreting or presenting his comments accurately. The only problem here is the perception of unfairness, and the extent to which the resulting bitterness is presented to the list, whether or not it's directed at specific people.
I think though that you're mistaken about your last statement, in that- it is bad, in the sense that in broader terms, Jonathon is employing the same strategy for getting business that programmers and technology firms have consistently failed with for 40 years. I don't mean beating potential clients and other vendors over the head with repeated, redundant claims of technical superiority- that obviously isn't the best strategy, but in itself that isn't what's objectionable.
What's bad is presenting the outside world with a face that reeks of the unfairness of it all. That's bad business, and it fails all of the time. When he "overdoes" it, that's what he's doing. Perhaps you can communicate this to him, because no one on this list seems to be able to do so.
Jonah
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Re: Freemarker Syntax (was: a lot of junk)
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
On Sunday 20 October 2002 12:20 am, Derick Fernando wrote:
> Ewww, that is horrible, there goes validation, and readability.
Various of you seem to suffer from a misconception. There is no particular
reason to *validate* a raw FreeMarker template. If you are generating XML
with FreeMarker (and believe me, this is quite feasible) then you are
concerned with the *generated output* being well-formed and possibly valid as
well.
As for readability, I have received various feedback that FreeMarker syntax is
more readable. For example, the closing of a directive states more clearly
what is being closed.
<if condition>
....
</if>
The closing </if> states that this is the end of an if condition -- as opposed
to Velocity's #end which ends macros, ifs, and other things.
> This crap
> is what all the fuss is about? I wouldn't use it with any of my XML or
> HTML. #set for example stands out against any other markup.
If you'd been reading the discussion more carefully, you would have noted that
we have an alternative syntax that largely resolves that issue.
<#assign foo="bar">
<# cannot be confused with valid markup (since elements cannot begin with #)
and this can easily be set as a regexp pattern for highlighting in various
editor modes, etcetera. In any case, with this alternative syntax (introduced
in 2.1, Daniel Dekany's idea) makes FreeMarker directives stand out against
any other markup.
I only became actively involved in FreeMarker development really about a year
ago and the pseudo-tag syntax had existed for nearly 3 years at that point.
OTOH, I had been an end-user of FreeMarker for 2 years preceding that, and in
my own experience, I found that the FreeMarker syntax worked quite well in
practice, since HTML coders would just tend to relate to it as a few "extra
tags" -- which it isn't really, of course. But I mean, they wouldn't perceive
it as something so new and intimidating.
Truth told, I think that comparing syntax is pretty much a red herring. People
use whatever syntax is there and probably get used it within a few days or so
anyway.
Regards,
Jonathan Revusky
--
FreeMarker-Velocity comparison doc
http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/fmVsVel.html
Velocity->FreeMarker template conversion utility
http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/usCavalry.html
>
> Derick.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu>
> To: "Velocity Users List" <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 12:15 PM
> Subject: Re: Freemarker Syntax (was: a lot of junk)
>
> > Saturday, October 19, 2002, 8:28:46 PM, Jeff Schnitzer wrote:
> > > On 10/19/02 9:43 AM, "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
> > >> <if foo>
> > >> a
> > >> <elseif bar>
> > >> b
> > >> <elseif baaz>
> > >> c
> > >> <else>
> > >> d
> > >> </if>
> > >
> > > Ugh. This is probably the #2 reason I will avoid freemarker:
> > > It looks waaay too much like the surrounding XML-ish content.
> >
> > Well, I guess the original intent was that the designer feels that he
> > just works with an extended HTML... so, it intentionally looks like
> > the surrounding XML or HTML.
> >
> > > The worst of it is not when you are filling in big textual
> > > areas of XML elements, but attributes. JSTL has the same
> > > awful problem.
> > >
> > > <table>
> > > <tr>
> > > <td class="<if foo>a<elseif bar>b<else>c</if>">
> > > </td>
> > > </tr>
> > > </table>
> > >
> > > That just creeps me out, and XML compliance is out the window.
> >
> > XML compliance? If you say that you want the *template* to be
> > well-formed XML, them it is out the window. If you want produce XML
> > with FreeMarker templates, then that's not a problem.
> >
> > What would be a syntax what you would prefer? (How would your example
> > looks with that syntax?)
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
>
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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Re: Freemarker Syntax (was: a lot of junk)
Posted by Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu>.
Sunday, October 20, 2002, 4:15:22 AM, Derick Fernando wrote:
> Acutally yes, Granted my templates are simple, I only use logic between
> tags:
>
> Velocity:
> #foreach( $bozo in $bozos )
> <td>$bozo.name</td>
> #end
(Even in this case, it is not valid XHTML. <tr> does not allow text
around <td>s.)
> Freemarker:
> <foreach bozo in bozos>
> <td>${bozo.name}<td>
> </foreach>
>
> Simple reader class removes #lines and validates templates recursively (they
> are xml).
Aha. So your templates are *not* valid XHTML-s, but you preprocess
them before validation. You can do exactly the same with FreeMarker
templates.
--
Daniel
> Derick.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu>
> To: "Velocity Users List" <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 5:32 PM
> Subject: Re: Freemarker Syntax (was: a lot of junk)
>> Sunday, October 20, 2002, 12:20:08 AM, Derick Fernando wrote:
>>
>> > Ewww, that is horrible, there goes validation, and readability. This
> crap is
>> > what all the fuss is about? I wouldn't use it with any of my XML or
> HTML.
>> > #set for example stands out against any other markup.
>> >
>> > Derick.
>>
>> Man... I hope you write these totally stupid things, because you are
>> *very* angry. You can't tell it seriously, that you look at that 10
>> lines of FreeMarker, and you know that FM is a "crap". Also, "there
>> goes validation"... you used to validate your *templates* against some
>> DTD??? Don't answer...
>>
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu>
>> > To: "Velocity Users List" <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>
>> > Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 12:15 PM
>> > Subject: Re: Freemarker Syntax (was: a lot of junk)
>>
>>
>> >> Saturday, October 19, 2002, 8:28:46 PM, Jeff Schnitzer wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > On 10/19/02 9:43 AM, "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> <if foo>
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> <elseif bar>
>> >> >> b
>> >> >> <elseif baaz>
>> >> >> c
>> >> >> <else>
>> >> >> d
>> >> >> </if>
>> >> >
>> >> > Ugh. This is probably the #2 reason I will avoid freemarker:
>> >> > It looks waaay too much like the surrounding XML-ish content.
>> >>
>> >> Well, I guess the original intent was that the designer feels that he
>> >> just works with an extended HTML... so, it intentionally looks like
>> >> the surrounding XML or HTML.
>> >>
>> >> > The worst of it is not when you are filling in big textual
>> >> > areas of XML elements, but attributes. JSTL has the same
>> >> > awful problem.
>> >> >
>> >> > <table>
>> >> > <tr>
>> >> > <td class="<if foo>a<elseif bar>b<else>c</if>">
>> >> > </td>
>> >> > </tr>
>> >> > </table>
>> >> >
>> >> > That just creeps me out, and XML compliance is out the window.
>> >>
>> >> XML compliance? If you say that you want the *template* to be
>> >> well-formed XML, them it is out the window. If you want produce XML
>> >> with FreeMarker templates, then that's not a problem.
>> >>
>> >> What would be a syntax what you would prefer? (How would your example
>> >> looks with that syntax?)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>> > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>> >> For additional commands, e-mail:
>> > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>> >>
>>
>>
>> > --
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>>
>>
>> --
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>>
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Re: Freemarker Syntax (was: a lot of junk)
Posted by Derick Fernando <de...@xenocex.com>.
Acutally yes, Granted my templates are simple, I only use logic between
tags:
Velocity:
#foreach( $bozo in $bozos )
<td>$bozo.name</td>
#end
Freemarker:
<foreach bozo in bozos>
<td>${bozo.name}<td>
</foreach>
Simple reader class removes #lines and validates templates recursively (they
are xml).
Derick.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu>
To: "Velocity Users List" <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: Freemarker Syntax (was: a lot of junk)
> Sunday, October 20, 2002, 12:20:08 AM, Derick Fernando wrote:
>
> > Ewww, that is horrible, there goes validation, and readability. This
crap is
> > what all the fuss is about? I wouldn't use it with any of my XML or
HTML.
> > #set for example stands out against any other markup.
> >
> > Derick.
>
> Man... I hope you write these totally stupid things, because you are
> *very* angry. You can't tell it seriously, that you look at that 10
> lines of FreeMarker, and you know that FM is a "crap". Also, "there
> goes validation"... you used to validate your *templates* against some
> DTD??? Don't answer...
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu>
> > To: "Velocity Users List" <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 12:15 PM
> > Subject: Re: Freemarker Syntax (was: a lot of junk)
>
>
> >> Saturday, October 19, 2002, 8:28:46 PM, Jeff Schnitzer wrote:
> >>
> >> > On 10/19/02 9:43 AM, "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> <if foo>
> >> >> a
> >> >> <elseif bar>
> >> >> b
> >> >> <elseif baaz>
> >> >> c
> >> >> <else>
> >> >> d
> >> >> </if>
> >> >
> >> > Ugh. This is probably the #2 reason I will avoid freemarker:
> >> > It looks waaay too much like the surrounding XML-ish content.
> >>
> >> Well, I guess the original intent was that the designer feels that he
> >> just works with an extended HTML... so, it intentionally looks like
> >> the surrounding XML or HTML.
> >>
> >> > The worst of it is not when you are filling in big textual
> >> > areas of XML elements, but attributes. JSTL has the same
> >> > awful problem.
> >> >
> >> > <table>
> >> > <tr>
> >> > <td class="<if foo>a<elseif bar>b<else>c</if>">
> >> > </td>
> >> > </tr>
> >> > </table>
> >> >
> >> > That just creeps me out, and XML compliance is out the window.
> >>
> >> XML compliance? If you say that you want the *template* to be
> >> well-formed XML, them it is out the window. If you want produce XML
> >> with FreeMarker templates, then that's not a problem.
> >>
> >> What would be a syntax what you would prefer? (How would your example
> >> looks with that syntax?)
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >> For additional commands, e-mail:
> > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >>
>
>
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
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Re: Freemarker Syntax (was: a lot of junk)
Posted by Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu>.
Sunday, October 20, 2002, 12:20:08 AM, Derick Fernando wrote:
> Ewww, that is horrible, there goes validation, and readability. This crap is
> what all the fuss is about? I wouldn't use it with any of my XML or HTML.
> #set for example stands out against any other markup.
>
> Derick.
Man... I hope you write these totally stupid things, because you are
*very* angry. You can't tell it seriously, that you look at that 10
lines of FreeMarker, and you know that FM is a "crap". Also, "there
goes validation"... you used to validate your *templates* against some
DTD??? Don't answer...
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu>
> To: "Velocity Users List" <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 12:15 PM
> Subject: Re: Freemarker Syntax (was: a lot of junk)
>> Saturday, October 19, 2002, 8:28:46 PM, Jeff Schnitzer wrote:
>>
>> > On 10/19/02 9:43 AM, "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> <if foo>
>> >> a
>> >> <elseif bar>
>> >> b
>> >> <elseif baaz>
>> >> c
>> >> <else>
>> >> d
>> >> </if>
>> >
>> > Ugh. This is probably the #2 reason I will avoid freemarker:
>> > It looks waaay too much like the surrounding XML-ish content.
>>
>> Well, I guess the original intent was that the designer feels that he
>> just works with an extended HTML... so, it intentionally looks like
>> the surrounding XML or HTML.
>>
>> > The worst of it is not when you are filling in big textual
>> > areas of XML elements, but attributes. JSTL has the same
>> > awful problem.
>> >
>> > <table>
>> > <tr>
>> > <td class="<if foo>a<elseif bar>b<else>c</if>">
>> > </td>
>> > </tr>
>> > </table>
>> >
>> > That just creeps me out, and XML compliance is out the window.
>>
>> XML compliance? If you say that you want the *template* to be
>> well-formed XML, them it is out the window. If you want produce XML
>> with FreeMarker templates, then that's not a problem.
>>
>> What would be a syntax what you would prefer? (How would your example
>> looks with that syntax?)
>>
>>
>> --
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>>
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Re: Freemarker Syntax (was: a lot of junk)
Posted by Derick Fernando <de...@xenocex.com>.
Ewww, that is horrible, there goes validation, and readability. This crap is
what all the fuss is about? I wouldn't use it with any of my XML or HTML.
#set for example stands out against any other markup.
Derick.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu>
To: "Velocity Users List" <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: Freemarker Syntax (was: a lot of junk)
> Saturday, October 19, 2002, 8:28:46 PM, Jeff Schnitzer wrote:
>
> > On 10/19/02 9:43 AM, "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
> >>
> >> <if foo>
> >> a
> >> <elseif bar>
> >> b
> >> <elseif baaz>
> >> c
> >> <else>
> >> d
> >> </if>
> >
> > Ugh. This is probably the #2 reason I will avoid freemarker:
> > It looks waaay too much like the surrounding XML-ish content.
>
> Well, I guess the original intent was that the designer feels that he
> just works with an extended HTML... so, it intentionally looks like
> the surrounding XML or HTML.
>
> > The worst of it is not when you are filling in big textual
> > areas of XML elements, but attributes. JSTL has the same
> > awful problem.
> >
> > <table>
> > <tr>
> > <td class="<if foo>a<elseif bar>b<else>c</if>">
> > </td>
> > </tr>
> > </table>
> >
> > That just creeps me out, and XML compliance is out the window.
>
> XML compliance? If you say that you want the *template* to be
> well-formed XML, them it is out the window. If you want produce XML
> with FreeMarker templates, then that's not a problem.
>
> What would be a syntax what you would prefer? (How would your example
> looks with that syntax?)
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
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Re: Freemarker Syntax (was: a lot of junk)
Posted by Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu>.
Saturday, October 19, 2002, 8:28:46 PM, Jeff Schnitzer wrote:
> On 10/19/02 9:43 AM, "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
>>
>> <if foo>
>> a
>> <elseif bar>
>> b
>> <elseif baaz>
>> c
>> <else>
>> d
>> </if>
>
> Ugh. This is probably the #2 reason I will avoid freemarker:
> It looks waaay too much like the surrounding XML-ish content.
Well, I guess the original intent was that the designer feels that he
just works with an extended HTML... so, it intentionally looks like
the surrounding XML or HTML.
> The worst of it is not when you are filling in big textual
> areas of XML elements, but attributes. JSTL has the same
> awful problem.
>
> <table>
> <tr>
> <td class="<if foo>a<elseif bar>b<else>c</if>">
> </td>
> </tr>
> </table>
>
> That just creeps me out, and XML compliance is out the window.
XML compliance? If you say that you want the *template* to be
well-formed XML, them it is out the window. If you want produce XML
with FreeMarker templates, then that's not a problem.
What would be a syntax what you would prefer? (How would your example
looks with that syntax?)
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Freemarker Syntax (was: a lot of junk)
Posted by Jeff Schnitzer <je...@infohazard.org>.
On 10/19/02 9:43 AM, "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
>
> <if foo>
> a
> <elseif bar>
> b
> <elseif baaz>
> c
> <else>
> d
> </if>
Ugh. This is probably the #2 reason I will avoid freemarker:
It looks waaay too much like the surrounding XML-ish content.
The worst of it is not when you are filling in big textual
areas of XML elements, but attributes. JSTL has the same
awful problem.
<table>
<tr>
<td class="<if foo>a<elseif bar>b<else>c</if>">
</td>
</tr>
</table>
That just creeps me out, and XML compliance is out the window.
Jeff Schnitzer
jeff@infohazard.org
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RE: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by James Maes <jm...@materialogic.com>.
John,
Perhaps you could just leave us alone? You presence in this list has
caused little more then trouble and an influx of email. We all understand
that you love freemaker but we are here because we are using Velocity and
are 'Okay' with the current feature set of Velocity.
Please just go in peace and let us be happy here in Velocity Land.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathan Revusky [mailto:revusky@wanadoo.es]
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 5:39 AM
To: Velocity Users List
Subject: Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
On Sunday 20 October 2002 07:07 pm, Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> Daniel,
>
>
> Freemarker has enough visibility and merit to compete with Velocity
> and I even think that the "Apache factor" is not such big advantage
> as you might think.
It is quite a huge advantage. I think anybody who claims otherwise is being
naive or possibly saying it in bad faith.
>
> My guess is that a couple of articles about Velocity poping up in
> some online magazines did much more for Velocity's visibility than
> anything else.
>
> Even being already a veteran user of Velocity, I have been many times
> considering using Freemarker, although its SGML-like syntax is a
> disadvantage for several of my use cases. Attila's excelent job on
> removing some of Freemarker's original limitations makes it very
> tempting.
<LOL>
Okay, fine, everything that happened between FM 1 and FM 2.1 was Attila's
work. <LOL>
I can see that you are a man of high principles, Paolo. You never let
objective technical facts get in the way of your personal animosities!
<LOL>
>
>
> About Jonathan Revusky being a poor inofensive guy that is just
> fighting back the oppresive attacks of the nasty Velocity troups...
> Well, you better open your eyes.
>
> J.R. starts trouble everytime he pops up here. He his very sensitive
> to ANY little remark anyone makes on him but has no restrictions on
> insulting everybody else.
I am not keeping precise count, but I have been personally insulted far more
times on jakarta mailing lists than I have ever insulted anybody. Far more
times. Over the last couple of weeks, people have invariably gotten personal
with me first. This is not a matter of legitimate debate. There is a
complete
electronic record of all these exchanges.
>
> And I never learned nothing from his posts.
<sigh>
Well, maybe that's the case. But look, you're subscribed to the
freemarker-devel mailing list and have been for a long time. I am involved
in
quite in-depth technical discussions there of where FreeMarker is going. If
you have not learned anything from any of those discussions, I don't think
that has to do with me. OTOH, I have never learned anything from you and
that
is simply because you have never contributed anything on any level.
People in glass houses should not throw stones.
Jonathan Revusky
--
FreeMarker 2.1 is out! http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/
FreeMarker-Velocity comparison doc
http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/fmVsVel.html
Velocity->FreeMarker template conversion utility
http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/usCavalry.html
>
>
> Have fun,
> Paulo
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Daniel Dekany [mailto:ddekany@freemail.hu]
> > Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 3:44 PM
> > To: Velocity Users List
> > Subject: Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
> >
> > Saturday, October 19, 2002, 1:29:54 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> > > On 10/18/02 3:41 PM, "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
> > >> Friday, October 18, 2002, 10:12:50 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
> > >>
> > >> [snip]
> > >>
> > >>> I don't understand the passion for the
> > >>> developers of a competitive templating system to want us to
> >
> > remove one of
> >
> > >>> their differentiators, but I guess that¹s why they didn't
> >
> > take up careers in
> >
> > >>> marketing.
> > >>
> > >> [snip]
> > >>
> > >> <OT>
> > >> I just can't lave this paragraph without answer...
> > >
> > > Ok.
> > >
> > >> Your paragraph reflects rather anti-free-software approach. Free
> > >> software is not about bear down other projects; it is about develop
> > >> better tools for people.
> > >
> > > Then why does it seem like there is an anti-Velocity obsession at
> > > FreeMarker? There's a conversion tool, a differentiation page.
> >
> > Anything
> >
> > > else?
> >
> > anti-Velocity... Do you think that a conversion tool and a
> > differentiation page is anti-Velocity? If we would tell lies on the
> > diff page, then it would be that, but AFAIK we don't. Well, OTOH, I
> > admit that including the addresses of those pages in Jonathan's
> > signature maybe goes too far (and I said it to him in private), but,
> > anyway, that's not a big problem either. I mean, nobody should piss
> > off on that. (Why is it that a big problem?)
> >
> > Also, we don't consider as anti-FreeMarker if you add a FreeMarker vs
> > Velocity page to the FreeMarker page, *if* that's correct.
> >
> > >>I don't care if less people use FM *because
> > >> Velocity has been improved to a better tool* (I don't say "we don't
> > >> care", since I don't know Jonathan's and Attila's exact opinion). It
> > >> is not bad for me if Velocity becomes to a better tool, not even if
it
> > >> outstrips FreeMarker (However, frankly, I don't think it will happen;
> > >> currently Velocity lagging far behind FreeMarker 2.1, and it seems
> > >> that the gap will grow further). I will support the tool what I find
> > >> better.
> > >
> > > Come on. Lets stop with the posturing. Jonathan is very
transparently
> > > trying to market FreeMarker. If I recall from the last time
> >
> > he tried this,
> >
> > > he was very explicit about acknowledging what he was doing.
> >
> > I'll see if I
> >
> > > can find a link.
> >
> > Sure... so what? I said that it is not problem if "less people use FM
> > *because Velocity has been improved to a better tool*". And FM
> > "marketing" does not prevent Velocity evolving.
> >
> > > As to 'better', I think you hit the nail on the head - use the
> >
> > tool that you
> >
> > > think is better. If you think FreeMarker is better, why all
> >
> > this time and
> >
> > > energy spent bashing us here at Velocity?
> >
> > "bashing us"? Well, OK, the relationship between Jonathan and you (and
> > some other Vel. people), and relationship between me and you (and some
> > other Vel. people) is not free from personal aversions. On my side it
> > has *nothing* to do with the fact that I cleanly prefer FreeMarker
> > over Velocity, and that I'm involved in FreeMarker. And I guess (but I
> > can't tell it for sure...) that it goes for Jonathan as well. And,
> > basically he brings up technical topics here, and even if it is
> > sometimes visible that he is angry on Velocity team (again, the reason
> > of this anger is not that Velocity is a "competitive templating
> > system"), I don't think he "bashing" Velocity. Well, when some list
> > reader stars to answers with personal attacks, then he will "bash" as
> > well.
> >
> > > You have made direct insults - you may not have meant them that way,
> > > but they could have been construed as attempting to insult.
> > >
> > > As for your comment about other projects :
> > >
> > > You may not realize it, but this is our third visit from
> >
> > Jonathan to this
> >
> > > list.
> >
> > (That's not a problem in itself.)
> >
> > > This round started ok - the usual pattern of some gratuitous attempt
at
> > > making some relevant point related to templating or Velocity,
> >
> > and then the
> >
> > > freemarker plug. I think I once offered a Velocity template to make
it
> > > easier for him. :)
> >
> > Well, I would call this habit "annoying", but it is cleanly not the
> > "bashing" of Veloicty or attack against Velocity. I said him that he
> > *overdoes* this thing, but he keeps saying that, because of the unfair
> > advantage of Vel. (i.e. it is hosted by apache.org) he has no better
> > choice. But I don't think that doing this thing in general is bad.
> >
> > > I think it's cool if the freemarker people would post announcements
> > > here about freemarker releases and such, but just posting message
> >
> > after message
> >
> > > noting freemarker capabilities is, I believe, counter productive to
his
> > > intent. It's not my problem until he becomes abusive, which he
> >
> > does (and now
> >
> > > has) in an absolutely predictable way, and then we have to
> >
> > decide what to do
> >
> > > about it.
> >
> > I don't think that he started the abusive behavior here... sure, you
> > can find quotes where he did or I did that, but mainly it is not true.
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > I am sure that FreeMarker 2 is a very fine package. I know of
Attila's
> > > work, which I think is excellent. Jonathan seems to think his work is
> > > great, and I don't know anything to the contrary. I don't know
> >
> > about your
> >
> > > contributions to freemarker, but I am sure they are valuable as
> >
> > you appear
> >
> > > to be interested and sincere. (Maybe you should ask to have
> >
> > your name added
> >
> > > to the "Who we are" page?)
> >
> > (Umm... What do you want to say with this?) The two main developer of
> > FM is cleanly Jonathan and Attila. (Probably I can get a third
> > placing, far behind the second place.) And, simply I don't care if my
> > name is there or not... who cares? (OK, maybe when you are looking for
> > job...)
> >
> > > I do wonder about a syntax that mimics XML w/ the pointy brackets, but
> > > doesn't seem to be well formed, thus making it appear difficult
> >
> > to use with
> >
> > > XML. <if ...> <else> </if> - seems like you would need to
> >
> > shove a </else>
> >
> > > somewhere... But it's just intellectual curiosity - I'll ask
> >
> > Attila someday
> >
> > > when I remember - and I certainly am not going to spooge the
> >
> > FreeMarker list
> >
> > > about this. You guys clearly have a reason for doing it this
> >
> > way, the users
> >
> > > don't seem to care, and that's just peachy with me.
> >
> > Well, most designer knows HTML, so I think it is practical to use a
> > some similar syntax. But FTL never tried to be some kind of SGML, just
> > mimics it somewhat.
> >
> > But... returning to the <else> problem. This is always a problem with
> > "SGML-style" languages. Actually, freemarker interprets this:
> >
> > <if foo>
> > a
> > <elseif bar>
> > b
> > <elseif baaz>
> > c
> > <else>
> > d
> > </if>
> >
> > as something like:
> >
> > <IFBLOCK>
> > <IF foo>
> > a
> > </IF>
> > <ELSEIF bar>
> > b
> > </ELSEIF>
> > <ELSEIF baaz>
> > c
> > </ELSEIF>
> > <ELSE>
> > d
> > </ELSE>
> > </IFBLOCK>
> >
> > Just IMO it would be a bad idea in practice to use this logic on the
> > template language level, even if it is more logical. More typing, and
> > anyway, I guess most developers would not realize that it is more
> > logical now...
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
On Sunday 20 October 2002 07:07 pm, Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> Daniel,
>
>
> Freemarker has enough visibility and merit to compete with Velocity
> and I even think that the "Apache factor" is not such big advantage
> as you might think.
It is quite a huge advantage. I think anybody who claims otherwise is being
naive or possibly saying it in bad faith.
>
> My guess is that a couple of articles about Velocity poping up in
> some online magazines did much more for Velocity's visibility than
> anything else.
>
> Even being already a veteran user of Velocity, I have been many times
> considering using Freemarker, although its SGML-like syntax is a
> disadvantage for several of my use cases. Attila's excelent job on
> removing some of Freemarker's original limitations makes it very
> tempting.
<LOL>
Okay, fine, everything that happened between FM 1 and FM 2.1 was Attila's
work. <LOL>
I can see that you are a man of high principles, Paolo. You never let
objective technical facts get in the way of your personal animosities!
<LOL>
>
>
> About Jonathan Revusky being a poor inofensive guy that is just
> fighting back the oppresive attacks of the nasty Velocity troups...
> Well, you better open your eyes.
>
> J.R. starts trouble everytime he pops up here. He his very sensitive
> to ANY little remark anyone makes on him but has no restrictions on
> insulting everybody else.
I am not keeping precise count, but I have been personally insulted far more
times on jakarta mailing lists than I have ever insulted anybody. Far more
times. Over the last couple of weeks, people have invariably gotten personal
with me first. This is not a matter of legitimate debate. There is a complete
electronic record of all these exchanges.
>
> And I never learned nothing from his posts.
<sigh>
Well, maybe that's the case. But look, you're subscribed to the
freemarker-devel mailing list and have been for a long time. I am involved in
quite in-depth technical discussions there of where FreeMarker is going. If
you have not learned anything from any of those discussions, I don't think
that has to do with me. OTOH, I have never learned anything from you and that
is simply because you have never contributed anything on any level.
People in glass houses should not throw stones.
Jonathan Revusky
--
FreeMarker 2.1 is out! http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/
FreeMarker-Velocity comparison doc
http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/fmVsVel.html
Velocity->FreeMarker template conversion utility
http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/usCavalry.html
>
>
> Have fun,
> Paulo
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Daniel Dekany [mailto:ddekany@freemail.hu]
> > Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 3:44 PM
> > To: Velocity Users List
> > Subject: Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
> >
> > Saturday, October 19, 2002, 1:29:54 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> > > On 10/18/02 3:41 PM, "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
> > >> Friday, October 18, 2002, 10:12:50 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
> > >>
> > >> [snip]
> > >>
> > >>> I don't understand the passion for the
> > >>> developers of a competitive templating system to want us to
> >
> > remove one of
> >
> > >>> their differentiators, but I guess that¹s why they didn't
> >
> > take up careers in
> >
> > >>> marketing.
> > >>
> > >> [snip]
> > >>
> > >> <OT>
> > >> I just can't lave this paragraph without answer...
> > >
> > > Ok.
> > >
> > >> Your paragraph reflects rather anti-free-software approach. Free
> > >> software is not about bear down other projects; it is about develop
> > >> better tools for people.
> > >
> > > Then why does it seem like there is an anti-Velocity obsession at
> > > FreeMarker? There's a conversion tool, a differentiation page.
> >
> > Anything
> >
> > > else?
> >
> > anti-Velocity... Do you think that a conversion tool and a
> > differentiation page is anti-Velocity? If we would tell lies on the
> > diff page, then it would be that, but AFAIK we don't. Well, OTOH, I
> > admit that including the addresses of those pages in Jonathan's
> > signature maybe goes too far (and I said it to him in private), but,
> > anyway, that's not a big problem either. I mean, nobody should piss
> > off on that. (Why is it that a big problem?)
> >
> > Also, we don't consider as anti-FreeMarker if you add a FreeMarker vs
> > Velocity page to the FreeMarker page, *if* that's correct.
> >
> > >>I don't care if less people use FM *because
> > >> Velocity has been improved to a better tool* (I don't say "we don't
> > >> care", since I don't know Jonathan's and Attila's exact opinion). It
> > >> is not bad for me if Velocity becomes to a better tool, not even if it
> > >> outstrips FreeMarker (However, frankly, I don't think it will happen;
> > >> currently Velocity lagging far behind FreeMarker 2.1, and it seems
> > >> that the gap will grow further). I will support the tool what I find
> > >> better.
> > >
> > > Come on. Lets stop with the posturing. Jonathan is very transparently
> > > trying to market FreeMarker. If I recall from the last time
> >
> > he tried this,
> >
> > > he was very explicit about acknowledging what he was doing.
> >
> > I'll see if I
> >
> > > can find a link.
> >
> > Sure... so what? I said that it is not problem if "less people use FM
> > *because Velocity has been improved to a better tool*". And FM
> > "marketing" does not prevent Velocity evolving.
> >
> > > As to 'better', I think you hit the nail on the head - use the
> >
> > tool that you
> >
> > > think is better. If you think FreeMarker is better, why all
> >
> > this time and
> >
> > > energy spent bashing us here at Velocity?
> >
> > "bashing us"? Well, OK, the relationship between Jonathan and you (and
> > some other Vel. people), and relationship between me and you (and some
> > other Vel. people) is not free from personal aversions. On my side it
> > has *nothing* to do with the fact that I cleanly prefer FreeMarker
> > over Velocity, and that I'm involved in FreeMarker. And I guess (but I
> > can't tell it for sure...) that it goes for Jonathan as well. And,
> > basically he brings up technical topics here, and even if it is
> > sometimes visible that he is angry on Velocity team (again, the reason
> > of this anger is not that Velocity is a "competitive templating
> > system"), I don't think he "bashing" Velocity. Well, when some list
> > reader stars to answers with personal attacks, then he will "bash" as
> > well.
> >
> > > You have made direct insults - you may not have meant them that way,
> > > but they could have been construed as attempting to insult.
> > >
> > > As for your comment about other projects :
> > >
> > > You may not realize it, but this is our third visit from
> >
> > Jonathan to this
> >
> > > list.
> >
> > (That's not a problem in itself.)
> >
> > > This round started ok - the usual pattern of some gratuitous attempt at
> > > making some relevant point related to templating or Velocity,
> >
> > and then the
> >
> > > freemarker plug. I think I once offered a Velocity template to make it
> > > easier for him. :)
> >
> > Well, I would call this habit "annoying", but it is cleanly not the
> > "bashing" of Veloicty or attack against Velocity. I said him that he
> > *overdoes* this thing, but he keeps saying that, because of the unfair
> > advantage of Vel. (i.e. it is hosted by apache.org) he has no better
> > choice. But I don't think that doing this thing in general is bad.
> >
> > > I think it's cool if the freemarker people would post announcements
> > > here about freemarker releases and such, but just posting message
> >
> > after message
> >
> > > noting freemarker capabilities is, I believe, counter productive to his
> > > intent. It's not my problem until he becomes abusive, which he
> >
> > does (and now
> >
> > > has) in an absolutely predictable way, and then we have to
> >
> > decide what to do
> >
> > > about it.
> >
> > I don't think that he started the abusive behavior here... sure, you
> > can find quotes where he did or I did that, but mainly it is not true.
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > I am sure that FreeMarker 2 is a very fine package. I know of Attila's
> > > work, which I think is excellent. Jonathan seems to think his work is
> > > great, and I don't know anything to the contrary. I don't know
> >
> > about your
> >
> > > contributions to freemarker, but I am sure they are valuable as
> >
> > you appear
> >
> > > to be interested and sincere. (Maybe you should ask to have
> >
> > your name added
> >
> > > to the "Who we are" page?)
> >
> > (Umm... What do you want to say with this?) The two main developer of
> > FM is cleanly Jonathan and Attila. (Probably I can get a third
> > placing, far behind the second place.) And, simply I don't care if my
> > name is there or not... who cares? (OK, maybe when you are looking for
> > job...)
> >
> > > I do wonder about a syntax that mimics XML w/ the pointy brackets, but
> > > doesn't seem to be well formed, thus making it appear difficult
> >
> > to use with
> >
> > > XML. <if ...> <else> </if> - seems like you would need to
> >
> > shove a </else>
> >
> > > somewhere... But it's just intellectual curiosity - I'll ask
> >
> > Attila someday
> >
> > > when I remember - and I certainly am not going to spooge the
> >
> > FreeMarker list
> >
> > > about this. You guys clearly have a reason for doing it this
> >
> > way, the users
> >
> > > don't seem to care, and that's just peachy with me.
> >
> > Well, most designer knows HTML, so I think it is practical to use a
> > some similar syntax. But FTL never tried to be some kind of SGML, just
> > mimics it somewhat.
> >
> > But... returning to the <else> problem. This is always a problem with
> > "SGML-style" languages. Actually, freemarker interprets this:
> >
> > <if foo>
> > a
> > <elseif bar>
> > b
> > <elseif baaz>
> > c
> > <else>
> > d
> > </if>
> >
> > as something like:
> >
> > <IFBLOCK>
> > <IF foo>
> > a
> > </IF>
> > <ELSEIF bar>
> > b
> > </ELSEIF>
> > <ELSEIF baaz>
> > c
> > </ELSEIF>
> > <ELSE>
> > d
> > </ELSE>
> > </IFBLOCK>
> >
> > Just IMO it would be a bad idea in practice to use this logic on the
> > template language level, even if it is more logical. More typing, and
> > anyway, I guess most developers would not realize that it is more
> > logical now...
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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RE: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Paulo Gaspar <pa...@krankikom.de>.
Daniel,
Freemarker has enough visibility and merit to compete with Velocity
and I even think that the "Apache factor" is not such big advantage
as you might think.
My guess is that a couple of articles about Velocity poping up in
some online magazines did much more for Velocity's visibility than
anything else.
Even being already a veteran user of Velocity, I have been many times
considering using Freemarker, although its SGML-like syntax is a
disadvantage for several of my use cases. Attila's excelent job on
removing some of Freemarker's original limitations makes it very
tempting.
About Jonathan Revusky being a poor inofensive guy that is just
fighting back the oppresive attacks of the nasty Velocity troups...
Well, you better open your eyes.
J.R. starts trouble everytime he pops up here. He his very sensitive
to ANY little remark anyone makes on him but has no restrictions on
insulting everybody else.
And I never learned nothing from his posts.
Have fun,
Paulo
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel Dekany [mailto:ddekany@freemail.hu]
> Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 3:44 PM
> To: Velocity Users List
> Subject: Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
>
>
> Saturday, October 19, 2002, 1:29:54 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
> > On 10/18/02 3:41 PM, "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
> >
> >> Friday, October 18, 2002, 10:12:50 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
> >>
> >> [snip]
> >>> I don't understand the passion for the
> >>> developers of a competitive templating system to want us to
> remove one of
> >>> their differentiators, but I guess that¹s why they didn't
> take up careers in
> >>> marketing.
> >> [snip]
> >>
> >> <OT>
> >> I just can't lave this paragraph without answer...
> >>
> >
> > Ok.
> >
> >> Your paragraph reflects rather anti-free-software approach. Free
> >> software is not about bear down other projects; it is about develop
> >> better tools for people.
> >
> > Then why does it seem like there is an anti-Velocity obsession at
> > FreeMarker? There's a conversion tool, a differentiation page.
> Anything
> > else?
>
> anti-Velocity... Do you think that a conversion tool and a
> differentiation page is anti-Velocity? If we would tell lies on the
> diff page, then it would be that, but AFAIK we don't. Well, OTOH, I
> admit that including the addresses of those pages in Jonathan's
> signature maybe goes too far (and I said it to him in private), but,
> anyway, that's not a big problem either. I mean, nobody should piss
> off on that. (Why is it that a big problem?)
>
> Also, we don't consider as anti-FreeMarker if you add a FreeMarker vs
> Velocity page to the FreeMarker page, *if* that's correct.
>
> >>I don't care if less people use FM *because
> >> Velocity has been improved to a better tool* (I don't say "we don't
> >> care", since I don't know Jonathan's and Attila's exact opinion). It
> >> is not bad for me if Velocity becomes to a better tool, not even if it
> >> outstrips FreeMarker (However, frankly, I don't think it will happen;
> >> currently Velocity lagging far behind FreeMarker 2.1, and it seems
> >> that the gap will grow further). I will support the tool what I find
> >> better.
> >
> > Come on. Lets stop with the posturing. Jonathan is very transparently
> > trying to market FreeMarker. If I recall from the last time
> he tried this,
> > he was very explicit about acknowledging what he was doing.
> I'll see if I
> > can find a link.
>
> Sure... so what? I said that it is not problem if "less people use FM
> *because Velocity has been improved to a better tool*". And FM
> "marketing" does not prevent Velocity evolving.
>
> > As to 'better', I think you hit the nail on the head - use the
> tool that you
> > think is better. If you think FreeMarker is better, why all
> this time and
> > energy spent bashing us here at Velocity?
>
> "bashing us"? Well, OK, the relationship between Jonathan and you (and
> some other Vel. people), and relationship between me and you (and some
> other Vel. people) is not free from personal aversions. On my side it
> has *nothing* to do with the fact that I cleanly prefer FreeMarker
> over Velocity, and that I'm involved in FreeMarker. And I guess (but I
> can't tell it for sure...) that it goes for Jonathan as well. And,
> basically he brings up technical topics here, and even if it is
> sometimes visible that he is angry on Velocity team (again, the reason
> of this anger is not that Velocity is a "competitive templating
> system"), I don't think he "bashing" Velocity. Well, when some list
> reader stars to answers with personal attacks, then he will "bash" as
> well.
>
> > You have made direct insults - you may not have meant them that way,
> > but they could have been construed as attempting to insult.
> >
> > As for your comment about other projects :
> >
> > You may not realize it, but this is our third visit from
> Jonathan to this
> > list.
>
> (That's not a problem in itself.)
>
> > This round started ok - the usual pattern of some gratuitous attempt at
> > making some relevant point related to templating or Velocity,
> and then the
> > freemarker plug. I think I once offered a Velocity template to make it
> > easier for him. :)
>
> Well, I would call this habit "annoying", but it is cleanly not the
> "bashing" of Veloicty or attack against Velocity. I said him that he
> *overdoes* this thing, but he keeps saying that, because of the unfair
> advantage of Vel. (i.e. it is hosted by apache.org) he has no better
> choice. But I don't think that doing this thing in general is bad.
>
> > I think it's cool if the freemarker people would post announcements here
> > about freemarker releases and such, but just posting message
> after message
> > noting freemarker capabilities is, I believe, counter productive to his
> > intent. It's not my problem until he becomes abusive, which he
> does (and now
> > has) in an absolutely predictable way, and then we have to
> decide what to do
> > about it.
>
> I don't think that he started the abusive behavior here... sure, you
> can find quotes where he did or I did that, but mainly it is not true.
>
> [snip]
> > I am sure that FreeMarker 2 is a very fine package. I know of Attila's
> > work, which I think is excellent. Jonathan seems to think his work is
> > great, and I don't know anything to the contrary. I don't know
> about your
> > contributions to freemarker, but I am sure they are valuable as
> you appear
> > to be interested and sincere. (Maybe you should ask to have
> your name added
> > to the "Who we are" page?)
>
> (Umm... What do you want to say with this?) The two main developer of
> FM is cleanly Jonathan and Attila. (Probably I can get a third
> placing, far behind the second place.) And, simply I don't care if my
> name is there or not... who cares? (OK, maybe when you are looking for
> job...)
>
> > I do wonder about a syntax that mimics XML w/ the pointy brackets, but
> > doesn't seem to be well formed, thus making it appear difficult
> to use with
> > XML. <if ...> <else> </if> - seems like you would need to
> shove a </else>
> > somewhere... But it's just intellectual curiosity - I'll ask
> Attila someday
> > when I remember - and I certainly am not going to spooge the
> FreeMarker list
> > about this. You guys clearly have a reason for doing it this
> way, the users
> > don't seem to care, and that's just peachy with me.
>
> Well, most designer knows HTML, so I think it is practical to use a
> some similar syntax. But FTL never tried to be some kind of SGML, just
> mimics it somewhat.
>
> But... returning to the <else> problem. This is always a problem with
> "SGML-style" languages. Actually, freemarker interprets this:
>
> <if foo>
> a
> <elseif bar>
> b
> <elseif baaz>
> c
> <else>
> d
> </if>
>
> as something like:
>
> <IFBLOCK>
> <IF foo>
> a
> </IF>
> <ELSEIF bar>
> b
> </ELSEIF>
> <ELSEIF baaz>
> c
> </ELSEIF>
> <ELSE>
> d
> </ELSE>
> </IFBLOCK>
>
> Just IMO it would be a bad idea in practice to use this logic on the
> template language level, even if it is more logical. More typing, and
> anyway, I guess most developers would not realize that it is more
> logical now...
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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Re: Velocity influences in FM + FM and choking XML parsers
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On 10/20/02 1:49 AM, "Attila Szegedi" <sz...@freemail.hu> wrote:
> From: "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>>
>>
>> I didn't mean that there was something sinister going on in FreeMarker-land.
>
> Oh, we have several surprising things being cooked right now... Actually,
> declarative XML processing machinery is not yet underway, but we definitely
> are busy on a very sinister subproject whose goal is total world domination.
> We're in daily working relation with Brain and Pinky on this ;-)
>
Oh, cool! I'm always into total world domination. You might have a quibble
with Linus about that being your project's goal as well (and I can imagine
how that might go depending on who delivers the message... :D )
>> It's clear that good software builds on other good software (or bad
>> implementations of good ideas...)
>>
>> We keep getting called thieves and worse for doing an implementation of
>> WebMacro.
>
> Not by me, that's for sure.
That's for sure.
>> I won't rehash the reasons - there are probably three sides to
>> every argument - but we Velocity Monkeys (Eeeek eek! :) think we added our
>> own improvements and ideas to what was a great implementation of some old
>> and new ideas.
>
> Actually, I don't know WebMacro enough to be able to tell myself what is
> different (= improved), but I have no reasons to doubt what you say.
As an example, I think that velocimacros are a good thing. Clearly not an
original concept, but a useful feature, and one that WM as since added
(their own version of the feature). I think it's great that they did -
Brian took a different approach, and we may learn something from that,
bringing it back to Velocity. That sort of positive reinforcement is good
for everyone.
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr.
geirm@adeptra.com +1-203-355-2219 (w)
Adeptra Inc. +1-203-247-1713 (m)
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Re: Velocity influences in FM + FM and choking XML parsers
Posted by Attila Szegedi <sz...@freemail.hu>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>
To: <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 12:03 AM
Subject: Re: Velocity influences in FM + FM and choking XML parsers
>
> I didn't mean that there was something sinister going on in
FreeMarker-land.
Oh, we have several surprising things being cooked right now... Actually,
declarative XML processing machinery is not yet underway, but we definitely
are busy on a very sinister subproject whose goal is total world domination.
We're in daily working relation with Brain and Pinky on this ;-)
> It's clear that good software builds on other good software (or bad
> implementations of good ideas...)
>
> We keep getting called thieves and worse for doing an implementation of
> WebMacro.
Not by me, that's for sure.
> I won't rehash the reasons - there are probably three sides to
> every argument - but we Velocity Monkeys (Eeeek eek! :) think we added our
> own improvements and ideas to what was a great implementation of some old
> and new ideas.
Actually, I don't know WebMacro enough to be able to tell myself what is
different (= improved), but I have no reasons to doubt what you say.
> > Come to think about it, you could probably find it usefule to have XML
> > representation of Velocity templates that would represent the template
> > structure - directives, interpolation points, etc. - with full fidelity
to
> > XML parsers.
>
> Take a look at Jelly.
>
> http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/sandbox/jelly/
>
I will.
Cheers,
Attila.
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Re: Velocity influences in FM + FM and choking XML parsers
Posted by Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu>.
Sunday, October 20, 2002, 2:47:18 AM, Daniel Dekany wrote:
> Geir... could you please stop this transparent and pathetic thing...
> you know very well, that it happens always never that you want to
[snip]
Yikes! F*** it! :) I belive that Geir has forked my pervious mail with
this subject... I was too hasty (Derick!!! This is somebody nettle me
:))... this thread was started by Attila. It is a real fix. ummmm...
SORRRY!
BTW, Attila, I don' think that an XML FTL syntax is good if you want
well-formed XML templates. Just consider this:
<fm:if test="foo">
<border>
</fm:if>
The content that is possibly bordered
<fm:if test="foo">
</border>
</fm:if>
This is not well-formed XML. Not to mention when you want to give
value for attributes:
<balh x="yyyy<fm:if test="fooo">xxxx</fm:if>"/>
So, they key is that the template language does not use any reserved
XML characters (<, >, ...etc.). (Like velocity does not except "&&".)
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Re: Velocity influences in FM + FM and choking XML parsers
Posted by Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu>.
Sunday, October 20, 2002, 7:51:49 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> On 10/19/02 8:47 PM, "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
>
>> Geir... could you please stop this transparent and pathetic thing...
>> you know very well, that it happens always never that you want to
>> parse your templates as XML.
>
> Actually, Daniel, there has been a case where I used Velocity in a place
> where it was parsed w/in XML.
>
>> Now, you feel that you have to hit back
>> for something, and you chose this hair-splitting technical issue,
>> because you can't find any better? Really, it is sooo pathetic and
>> spineless thing. You see, among others, these are the things why I
>> have personal problems with you... and why prefer FM community over
>> Velocity community.
>
> It was an honest question. Don't get so defensive.
>
> Notice how I brought it up just asking, in a friendly way? That I didn't
> call the code crap because of it, or call you lazy for not wanting to fix
[snip]
Sorry, this was a misunderstanding, as probably you will see when you
have sent this mail and read the next one...
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Re: Velocity influences in FM + FM and choking XML parsers
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <jr...@terra.es>.
Jeff Schnitzer wrote:
>On Sun, Oct 20, 2002 at 11:54:04AM +0200, Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>
>
>>It may be true that, if you were fairly careful, you could write Velocity
>>templates that are well-formed XML, but that is a very tenuous argument.
>>
>>
>
>As one of the people who initially brought this up, I will tell you
>it's not a straw man.
>
Frankly, I'm not so sure of that. The fact that Freemarker templates are
not well-formed XML is simply not something that anybody really
complains about on the list -- the FreeMarker list, I mean. I introduced
an alternative XML-compliant syntax some months ago and, as proof of
concept, it works, but it is basically a neglected piece of work now,
because I don't think anybody uses it. It's like I ran the flag up the
pole and nobody saluted.
IOW, as best I can tell, there no end-user, consumer demand for an
XML-compliant FreeMarker syntax.
Meanwhile, let's compare this to something that is clearly not a
straw-man, red-herring type issue -- decimal numbers. Whenever I have
been present on this list -- the Velocity list -- within a couple of
days, somebody has come out of the woodwork asking about support for
decimal numbers. There is very clear end-user demand for this. If there
were a comparable end-user demand for an XML-compliant FreeMarker
syntax, we would be allocating more effort into that. Of course,
FreeMarker syntax has been inherently non-XML-compliant from day 1 --
well before my involvement in the project.
>
>One approach to "layout" templating (adding title, navbar, etc)
>that I spent some time investigating was using XSLT to generate
>velocity templates at build-time. In fact, someone on this list
>originally suggested it. It's actually a pretty good idea and I
>intend to make use of the technique on a project sometime. You
>get the advantage of very sophisticated layout ability with _zero_
>runtime overhead.
>
Well, this is the first time I heard of anybody doing this. It could be
a good idea, I haven't thought about it that much, but it is not a
typical usage pattern.
>
>XSLT and Velocity work well like this because they don't
>step on each other's toes. Just think what you would have to
>do in freemarker - every little snippet of script would have to
>be encased in CDATA sections.
>
Well, that's not really true. Syntax is something quite superficial. I
mean, for starters, you could change about 2 lines in the FMParser.jj
grammar file and rebuild and you'd have a syntax that is *closer* to
being XML-compliant.
I mean, you could change:
<if x==y>
to being something like:
\\if x==y//
Or, if you didn't want to rebuild FreeMarker with the changed
delimiters, you could write all your templates like the above and simply
run a quickie filter through and replace:
\\if x==y//
by
<if x==y>
right before the template is parsed. So workarounds are definitely possible.
If there was much real demand for an XML-compliant FreeMarker syntax, we
could work with people towards that end and it is actually a relatively
trivial problem, as you can see above.
Of course, this gets back to the issue that there is no perceived demand
for this. :-)
At any rate, the syntactical elements that make up the templates is an
extremely -- possibly the most -- superficial aspect of a template
engine. Critiques of FreeMarker or any other template engine (or any
programming language for that matter) that center around syntax are
likely to be quite superficial and nit-picking.
>
>It's not necessary for a templating language to have an absolutely
>XML-safe syntax, just a mostly-compliant one.
>
That could be true, but it is surprising to me -- I mean that *mostly*
compliant really buys you that much.
>
>Another good reason for a mostly-compliant syntax is the fact
>that most editors will happily hilight their syntax. Again,
>absolute compliance is not necessary - editors work great with
>just "mostly" XML-safe.
>
For 2.2 and onwards, we have on our plate the issue of better
integration with GUI tools. To be completely fair, I would say that
Velocity probably has some advantage in that field. However, my
suspicion is that whatever existing work there is for integration with
editors and things is fairly primitive. This is a weak side of template
engines generally, the lack of 3rd party tool integration. So we're
really looking at addressing this in the coming months.
Of course, the important thing in terms of FreeMarker-oriented plugins
for things like JEdit and so on will not be for the template to be valid
XML -- it will be for the template to be valid FTL (FreeMarker template
language.)
I guess I could be conciliatory and retreat slightly from the idea that
the XML-compliance of templates is a total straw-man. However, it still
looks pretty tenuous. First of all, syntactic issues are usually not
worth harping on. Second of all, there seems to be no significant
end-user demand for XML-compliant templates. And thirdly, I question how
much mileage you can really get out of your temlates being *mostly*
XML-safe.
Regards,
Jonathan Revusky
--
FreeMarker 2.1 is out! http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/
FreeMarker-Velocity comparison doc
http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/fmVsVel.html
Velocity->FreeMarker template conversion utility
http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/usCavalry.html
>
>Jeff Schnitzer
>jeff@infohazard.org
>
>
>
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Re: Velocity influences in FM + FM and choking XML parsers
Posted by Jeff Schnitzer <je...@infohazard.org>.
On Sun, Oct 20, 2002 at 11:54:04AM +0200, Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>
> It may be true that, if you were fairly careful, you could write Velocity
> templates that are well-formed XML, but that is a very tenuous argument.
As one of the people who initially brought this up, I will tell you
it's not a straw man.
One approach to "layout" templating (adding title, navbar, etc)
that I spent some time investigating was using XSLT to generate
velocity templates at build-time. In fact, someone on this list
originally suggested it. It's actually a pretty good idea and I
intend to make use of the technique on a project sometime. You
get the advantage of very sophisticated layout ability with _zero_
runtime overhead.
XSLT and Velocity work well like this because they don't
step on each other's toes. Just think what you would have to
do in freemarker - every little snippet of script would have to
be encased in CDATA sections.
It's not necessary for a templating language to have an absolutely
XML-safe syntax, just a mostly-compliant one.
Another good reason for a mostly-compliant syntax is the fact
that most editors will happily hilight their syntax. Again,
absolute compliance is not necessary - editors work great with
just "mostly" XML-safe.
Jeff Schnitzer
jeff@infohazard.org
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RE: Velocity influences in FM + FM and choking XML parsers
Posted by Paulo Gaspar <pa...@krankikom.de>.
BTW, Attila also did some work on Velocity. You can find his name some
times in this page:
http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/changes.html
Have fun,
Paulo
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel Dekany [mailto:ddekany@freemail.hu]
> Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 4:23 PM
> To: Velocity Users List; jon@revusky.com
> Subject: Re: Velocity influences in FM + FM and choking XML parsers
>
>
> Sunday, October 20, 2002, 12:56:20 PM, Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>
> Oh no.... what did I do! Jonathan, Geir, *PLEASE* stop it!
>
> My answer was a result of an accidental misunderstanding (even if some
> of it points was not free of truth...). I believed that Geir has
> started this thread, as an answer of one of my mails, and after
> reading Derick's mail... you see. But then a have realized that Attila
> started it, and since he is an FM developer, his motivation is clear
> (i.e. he really interested in this 100th order question).
>
> Sorry!
>
> --
> Daniel
>
> > On Sunday 20 October 2002 12:47 pm, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> >> On 10/20/02 6:39 AM, "Jonathan Revusky" <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> >> > However, since we have established that the issue is
> >> > bogus, if you bring it up again, then it would be suggestive of bad
> >> > faith.
> >>
> >> "We"?
> >>
> >> You mean "I, by proclamation,". Daniel (at first) and Attila thought
> >> enough of it to discuss it w/o getting testy, and because of
> that I (and I
> >> assume others) learned something about FreeMarker.
>
> > I think Daniel and Attila have also both told you that the
> validity (XML-wise)
> > of templates is a bogus issue.
>
> > Moreover, I think you're basically conceding that point.
>
> >>
> >> I really don't want to continue this thread.
>
> > Gee, that's a surprise! <ROTFL>
>
> >>It's a waste of time.
>
> > Right. Like I said, it's a bogus issue.
>
> > Regards,
>
> > Jonathan Revusky
> > --
> > FreeMarker-Velocity comparison doc
> > http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/fmVsVel.html
> Velocity->>FreeMarker template conversion utility
> > http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/usCavalry.html
>
>
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
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Re: Velocity influences in FM + FM and choking XML parsers
Posted by Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu>.
Sunday, October 20, 2002, 12:56:20 PM, Jonathan Revusky wrote:
Oh no.... what did I do! Jonathan, Geir, *PLEASE* stop it!
My answer was a result of an accidental misunderstanding (even if some
of it points was not free of truth...). I believed that Geir has
started this thread, as an answer of one of my mails, and after
reading Derick's mail... you see. But then a have realized that Attila
started it, and since he is an FM developer, his motivation is clear
(i.e. he really interested in this 100th order question).
Sorry!
--
Daniel
> On Sunday 20 October 2002 12:47 pm, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>> On 10/20/02 6:39 AM, "Jonathan Revusky" <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>> > However, since we have established that the issue is
>> > bogus, if you bring it up again, then it would be suggestive of bad
>> > faith.
>>
>> "We"?
>>
>> You mean "I, by proclamation,". Daniel (at first) and Attila thought
>> enough of it to discuss it w/o getting testy, and because of that I (and I
>> assume others) learned something about FreeMarker.
> I think Daniel and Attila have also both told you that the validity (XML-wise)
> of templates is a bogus issue.
> Moreover, I think you're basically conceding that point.
>>
>> I really don't want to continue this thread.
> Gee, that's a surprise! <ROTFL>
>>It's a waste of time.
> Right. Like I said, it's a bogus issue.
> Regards,
> Jonathan Revusky
> --
> FreeMarker-Velocity comparison doc
> http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/fmVsVel.html
Velocity->>FreeMarker template conversion utility
> http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/usCavalry.html
> --
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Re: Velocity influences in FM + FM and choking XML parsers
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
On Sunday 20 October 2002 12:47 pm, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> On 10/20/02 6:39 AM, "Jonathan Revusky" <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> > However, since we have established that the issue is
> > bogus, if you bring it up again, then it would be suggestive of bad
> > faith.
>
> "We"?
>
> You mean "I, by proclamation,". Daniel (at first) and Attila thought
> enough of it to discuss it w/o getting testy, and because of that I (and I
> assume others) learned something about FreeMarker.
I think Daniel and Attila have also both told you that the validity (XML-wise)
of templates is a bogus issue.
Moreover, I think you're basically conceding that point.
>
> I really don't want to continue this thread.
Gee, that's a surprise! <ROTFL>
>It's a waste of time.
Right. Like I said, it's a bogus issue.
Regards,
Jonathan Revusky
--
FreeMarker-Velocity comparison doc
http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/fmVsVel.html
Velocity->FreeMarker template conversion utility
http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/usCavalry.html
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Re: Velocity influences in FM + FM and choking XML parsers
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On 10/20/02 6:39 AM, "Jonathan Revusky" <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> However, since we have established that the issue is
> bogus, if you bring it up again, then it would be suggestive of bad faith.
"We"?
You mean "I, by proclamation,". Daniel (at first) and Attila thought enough
of it to discuss it w/o getting testy, and because of that I (and I assume
others) learned something about FreeMarker.
I really don't want to continue this thread. It's a waste of time.
geir
--
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Re: Velocity influences in FM + FM and choking XML parsers
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
On Sunday 20 October 2002 12:16 pm, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> On 10/20/02 5:54 AM, "Jonathan Revusky" <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> > On Sunday 20 October 2002 07:51 am, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> >> On 10/19/02 8:47 PM, "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
> >>> Geir... could you please stop this transparent and pathetic thing...
> >>> you know very well, that it happens always never that you want to
> >>> parse your templates as XML.
> >>
> >> Actually, Daniel, there has been a case where I used Velocity in a place
> >> where it was parsed w/in XML.
> >
> > That may be the case, but Daniel is completely correct. Your point is a
> > straw-man.
>
> I thought a strawman was an issue or argument, usually artificial, raised
> specifically to then be knocked down by the creator.
Okay, fine. I am not an expert on all the different categories of logical
fallacy. Maybe it's not a straw-man.
I'll just say it's bogus. Template engines like FreeMarker and Velocity are
not designed to be valid XML. You can *generate* valid XML with either
engine, but that's a completely separate matter.
>
> In this case, it was answered. Unless I misunderstood, you can express
> freemaker as parseable XML, and we have had intelligent discussion about
> it. Until now, I guess ;)
I dunno. I suppose you've had an intelligent discussion insofar as one can
have an intelligent discussion about a completely bogus issue. The fact
remains that neither FreeMarker nor Velocity templates are specifically
designed to be valid XML.
>
> I think you meant 'red herring', which it also was not, as it wasn't
> constructed to mislead -
Okay, fine. I say it's just a bogus issue. And fine, you didn't bring it up in
order to mislead anyone. However, since we have established that the issue is
bogus, if you bring it up again, then it would be suggestive of bad faith.
Cheers,
Jonathan Revusky
--
FreeMarker-Velocity comparison doc
http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/fmVsVel.html
Velocity->FreeMarker template conversion utility
http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/usCavalry.html
> clearly it was an appendix or addendum to the
> message, and certainly wasn't there to shift the discussion away from the
> main thread.
>
> geir
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Re: Velocity influences in FM + FM and choking XML parsers
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On 10/20/02 5:54 AM, "Jonathan Revusky" <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> On Sunday 20 October 2002 07:51 am, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>> On 10/19/02 8:47 PM, "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
>>> Geir... could you please stop this transparent and pathetic thing...
>>> you know very well, that it happens always never that you want to
>>> parse your templates as XML.
>>
>> Actually, Daniel, there has been a case where I used Velocity in a place
>> where it was parsed w/in XML.
>
> That may be the case, but Daniel is completely correct. Your point is a
> straw-man.
>
I thought a strawman was an issue or argument, usually artificial, raised
specifically to then be knocked down by the creator.
In this case, it was answered. Unless I misunderstood, you can express
freemaker as parseable XML, and we have had intelligent discussion about it.
Until now, I guess ;)
I think you meant 'red herring', which it also was not, as it wasn't
constructed to mislead - clearly it was an appendix or addendum to the
message, and certainly wasn't there to shift the discussion away from the
main thread.
geir
--
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Adeptra Inc. +1-203-247-1713 (m)
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Re: Velocity influences in FM + FM and choking XML parsers
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
On Sunday 20 October 2002 07:51 am, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> On 10/19/02 8:47 PM, "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
> > Geir... could you please stop this transparent and pathetic thing...
> > you know very well, that it happens always never that you want to
> > parse your templates as XML.
>
> Actually, Daniel, there has been a case where I used Velocity in a place
> where it was parsed w/in XML.
That may be the case, but Daniel is completely correct. Your point is a
straw-man.
Neither the Velocity nor the FreeMarker template languages were specifically
designed to be well-formed XML. The minute you write something like:
#if (n < 10)
then it's not well-formed XML. Nor is:
#if (condition1 && condition2)
It may be true that, if you were fairly careful, you could write Velocity
templates that are well-formed XML, but that is a very tenuous argument.
I mean, if neither Velocity nor FreeMarker templates are well-formed XML,
since in neither case was it a design goal, then it is a very tenuous
criticism to suddenly start trumpetting that FM templates are not well-formed
XML!
>
> > Now, you feel that you have to hit back
> > for something, and you chose this hair-splitting technical issue,
> > because you can't find any better? Really, it is sooo pathetic and
> > spineless thing. You see, among others, these are the things why I
> > have personal problems with you... and why prefer FM community over
> > Velocity community.
>
> It was an honest question. Don't get so defensive.
Actually, I think Daniel was specifically questioning your intellectual
honesty -- that you would harp on such an obvious straw-man.
Surely, you realize that, if neither VTL nor FTL have the goal of being
well-formed XML, to suddenly make this great discovery -- that FTL is not
well-formed XML -- it does smack of dishonesty.
Not just to Daniel. To me as well.
>
> Notice how I brought it up just asking, in a friendly way? That I didn't
> call the code crap because of it, or call you lazy for not wanting to fix
> it, or question your ancestry, or your integrity, or honesty, or say you
> were just latching on to a well-known technology (XML) to get users with
> some lame reasoning like "People use XML stuff by default, so that's why
> they use Freemarker", or...
Well, the tone might have been friendly but it is an obvious straw-man. <sigh>
<snip>
Jonathan Revusky
--
FreeMarker 2.1 is out! http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/
FreeMarker-Velocity comparison doc
http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/fmVsVel.html
Velocity->FreeMarker template conversion utility
http://freemarker.sourceforge.net/usCavalry.html
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Re: Velocity influences in FM + FM and choking XML parsers
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On 10/19/02 8:47 PM, "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
> Geir... could you please stop this transparent and pathetic thing...
> you know very well, that it happens always never that you want to
> parse your templates as XML.
Actually, Daniel, there has been a case where I used Velocity in a place
where it was parsed w/in XML.
> Now, you feel that you have to hit back
> for something, and you chose this hair-splitting technical issue,
> because you can't find any better? Really, it is sooo pathetic and
> spineless thing. You see, among others, these are the things why I
> have personal problems with you... and why prefer FM community over
> Velocity community.
It was an honest question. Don't get so defensive.
Notice how I brought it up just asking, in a friendly way? That I didn't
call the code crap because of it, or call you lazy for not wanting to fix
it, or question your ancestry, or your integrity, or honesty, or say you
were just latching on to a well-known technology (XML) to get users with
some lame reasoning like "People use XML stuff by default, so that's why
they use Freemarker", or...
I did none of this - I just asked what one would do. You had a good
response - I understood it to be that you could make well-formed FreeMarker
if you wanted to type it out.
Please, don't get so worked up.
And sometime, when were in the same place, be it you make it to the US, or
London when I am there, or I make it to Hungary, I would love to take you to
lunch or something and meet you. You'll figure out I'm not the monster or
moron you make me out to be.
>
> But, OK:
>
> *****************
> Guys!
>
> A FreeMarker tempalte is NOT well-formed XML!
> Velocity templates can be well-formad XML (if you don't use "&&").
>
> *****************
>
> Is it OK now? Can we stop this "technical" thread here?
> Thanks.
Unlike the discussion of the pros and cons of floating point support, this
is a technical issue :) Its now becomes philosophical if we look at if one
*needs* to have templates that are well-formed XML, a discussion that would
have no point here....
--
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geirm@adeptra.com +1-203-355-2219 (w)
Adeptra Inc. +1-203-247-1713 (m)
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Re: Velocity influences in FM + FM and choking XML parsers
Posted by Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu>.
Geir... could you please stop this transparent and pathetic thing...
you know very well, that it happens always never that you want to
parse your templates as XML. Now, you feel that you have to hit back
for something, and you chose this hair-splitting technical issue,
because you can't find any better? Really, it is sooo pathetic and
spineless thing. You see, among others, these are the things why I
have personal problems with you... and why prefer FM community over
Velocity community.
But, OK:
*****************
Guys!
A FreeMarker tempalte is NOT well-formed XML!
Velocity templates can be well-formad XML (if you don't use "&&").
*****************
Is it OK now? Can we stop this "technical" thread here?
Thanks.
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Re: Velocity influences in FM + FM and choking XML parsers
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On 10/19/02 5:53 PM, "Attila Szegedi" <sz...@freemail.hu> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>
> To: <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 6:06 PM
> Subject: Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
>
>
>> Not at all - and the converse is true as well -> I suppose that exposure
> to
>> Velocity lets you add some of the WM/Velocity things to Freemarker, like
> the
>> <# thingy, the pluggable introspection, the ability to use arbitrary
> public
>> classes in the context rather than require FM interfaces.
>
> Actually, I wrote what we now call "JavaBeans wrapper" back in 1999 (or
> beginning of 2000) because I didn't want to deal with wrapping objects into
> interfaces manually. I did evaluate both WM and Velocity first, but find WM
> less straightforward to integrate with my already existing webapp machinery,
> and Velocity was at the time in the quite half-baked early pre-1.0 stage. FM
> was very easy to integrate with, but I had a single itch to scratch at the
> time - JavaBeans-to-datamodel adapter layer, which I wrote. I wouldn't say
> it's much of WM/Vel influence since it's a quite straightforward idea to
> access objects directly from template (I usually call this "the scripting
> language approach to templating"). Then, it'd be unfair to say I came up
> with it completely on my own since I saw this (admittedly quite trivial)
> mapping of template syntax to underlying objects in both WM, Vel, BeanShell,
> etc.
:)
Yes, it's been in quite a few places.
>
>> We acknowledge
>> the contributions of WM. What templating systems does the FreeMarker site
>> recognize for influence?
>
> None right now, and the question is valid. Will have to think about it,
> altough I'm not with the project from its start. I think I'll ask Ben Geer
> or Mike Bayer about the very roots and document those parts I'm guilty of
> commiting :-). I admittedly stole the XML transforming Ant task idea from
> Anakia and the embedding of template in JSP via a custom taglib from you -
> you are credited as the originator of the idea in the JavaDoc of the
> freemarker.ext.jsp.FreemarkerTag class :-). Also, you shouldn't be surprised
> if I come up with something akin to DVSL if I'm left with too much free time
> on my hands :-)
Heh.
I didn't mean that there was something sinister going on in FreeMarker-land.
It's clear that good software builds on other good software (or bad
implementations of good ideas...)
We keep getting called thieves and worse for doing an implementation of
WebMacro. I won't rehash the reasons - there are probably three sides to
every argument - but we Velocity Monkeys (Eeeek eek! :) think we added our
own improvements and ideas to what was a great implementation of some old
and new ideas.
>
>> For example, I did a big project for a client where we mix Velocity's VSL
>> with XSLT, producing the ability to do procedural processing parts w/in
> the
>> XSLT process.
>>
>> I can't see how you could do that with Freemarker. But that really isn't
> a
>> big deal to me. I don't use freemarker, so I have no interest in talking
>> (or insulting) you about it.
> ...
>> As a casual observer - the problem I see is that an XML parser will choke
> on
>> any FreeMarker markup in a document. If you went ot eh more verbose
> syntax,
>> I agree that it would be more typing...
>
> Well, it is a very rare case that you want to pass a template source through
> XML parser or XSLT processor.
I dunno. I guess. I kind of think of it as normal because I did it for a
client.
> But if you really have to do it, FM supports a
> full XML representation of template sources as well; there's a Template
> constructor that takes org.xml.sax.InputSource. This format is admittedly
> more awkward (on par with JSP's XML representation, I'd say), but at least
> lets you feed template sources to XML processors, i.e. XSLT, and is really
> intended as a machine-readable representation, not something a designer
> would directly work with. Since in that form, FM directives are XML elements
> as well, you can actually even do funkier things with them in XSLT rather
> than just have them ignored (as with Velocity directives).
> A template can be read from and written to in either the standard syntax or
> XML, so it's easy to convert to and from the XML representation if you
> really have to feed a template source to whatever that requires well-formed
> XML input.
> Come to think about it, you could probably find it usefule to have XML
> representation of Velocity templates that would represent the template
> structure - directives, interpolation points, etc. - with full fidelity to
> XML parsers.
Take a look at Jelly.
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/sandbox/jelly/
--
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geirm@adeptra.com +1-203-355-2219 (w)
Adeptra Inc. +1-203-247-1713 (m)
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Velocity influences in FM + FM and choking XML parsers
Posted by Attila Szegedi <sz...@freemail.hu>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>
To: <ve...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 6:06 PM
Subject: Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
> Not at all - and the converse is true as well -> I suppose that exposure
to
> Velocity lets you add some of the WM/Velocity things to Freemarker, like
the
> <# thingy, the pluggable introspection, the ability to use arbitrary
public
> classes in the context rather than require FM interfaces.
Actually, I wrote what we now call "JavaBeans wrapper" back in 1999 (or
beginning of 2000) because I didn't want to deal with wrapping objects into
interfaces manually. I did evaluate both WM and Velocity first, but find WM
less straightforward to integrate with my already existing webapp machinery,
and Velocity was at the time in the quite half-baked early pre-1.0 stage. FM
was very easy to integrate with, but I had a single itch to scratch at the
time - JavaBeans-to-datamodel adapter layer, which I wrote. I wouldn't say
it's much of WM/Vel influence since it's a quite straightforward idea to
access objects directly from template (I usually call this "the scripting
language approach to templating"). Then, it'd be unfair to say I came up
with it completely on my own since I saw this (admittedly quite trivial)
mapping of template syntax to underlying objects in both WM, Vel, BeanShell,
etc.
>We acknowledge
> the contributions of WM. What templating systems does the FreeMarker site
> recognize for influence?
None right now, and the question is valid. Will have to think about it,
altough I'm not with the project from its start. I think I'll ask Ben Geer
or Mike Bayer about the very roots and document those parts I'm guilty of
commiting :-). I admittedly stole the XML transforming Ant task idea from
Anakia and the embedding of template in JSP via a custom taglib from you -
you are credited as the originator of the idea in the JavaDoc of the
freemarker.ext.jsp.FreemarkerTag class :-). Also, you shouldn't be surprised
if I come up with something akin to DVSL if I'm left with too much free time
on my hands :-)
> For example, I did a big project for a client where we mix Velocity's VSL
> with XSLT, producing the ability to do procedural processing parts w/in
the
> XSLT process.
>
> I can't see how you could do that with Freemarker. But that really isn't
a
> big deal to me. I don't use freemarker, so I have no interest in talking
> (or insulting) you about it.
...
> As a casual observer - the problem I see is that an XML parser will choke
on
> any FreeMarker markup in a document. If you went ot eh more verbose
syntax,
> I agree that it would be more typing...
Well, it is a very rare case that you want to pass a template source through
XML parser or XSLT processor. But if you really have to do it, FM supports a
full XML representation of template sources as well; there's a Template
constructor that takes org.xml.sax.InputSource. This format is admittedly
more awkward (on par with JSP's XML representation, I'd say), but at least
lets you feed template sources to XML processors, i.e. XSLT, and is really
intended as a machine-readable representation, not something a designer
would directly work with. Since in that form, FM directives are XML elements
as well, you can actually even do funkier things with them in XSLT rather
than just have them ignored (as with Velocity directives).
A template can be read from and written to in either the standard syntax or
XML, so it's easy to convert to and from the XML representation if you
really have to feed a template source to whatever that requires well-formed
XML input.
Come to think about it, you could probably find it usefule to have XML
representation of Velocity templates that would represent the template
structure - directives, interpolation points, etc. - with full fidelity to
XML parsers.
Attila.
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On 10/19/02 2:41 PM, "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
> Saturday, October 19, 2002, 6:06:34 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
>> On 10/19/02 9:43 AM, "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
> [snip]
>>> Sure... so what? I said that it is not problem if "less people use FM
>>> *because Velocity has been improved to a better tool*". And FM
>>> "marketing" does not prevent Velocity evolving.
>>
>> Not at all - and the converse is true as well -> I suppose that
>> exposure to Velocity lets you add some of the WM/Velocity things to
>> Freemarker, like the <# thingy, the pluggable introspection, the
>> ability to use arbitrary public classes in the context rather than
>> require FM interfaces. We acknowledge the contributions of WM. What
>> templating systems does the FreeMarker site recognize for influence?
>
> I don't know about if it has strong relation to an other engine. But I
> don't know... I was not here from the beginning of time.
>
>>>> As to 'better', I think you hit the nail on the head - use the tool that
>>>> you
>>>> think is better. If you think FreeMarker is better, why all this time and
>>>> energy spent bashing us here at Velocity?
>>>
>>> "bashing us"? Well, OK, the relationship between Jonathan and you (and
>>> some other Vel. people), and relationship between me and you (and some
>>> other Vel. people) is not free from personal aversions.
>>
>> As far as I know, we have nothing between us. I actually feel no personal
>> animosity towards Jonathan.
>
> Really... to say a concrete issue, I remember some slander about
> Niggle...
:)
I'll be happy to talk to you about this offline. The whole thing is
archived.
And yes, I really hold no personal animosity towards him.
>
>> And yes, 'bashing' is the appropriate term. Here's one from what I think is
>> your first post recently :
>>
>> "I have the feeling that the real reason behind not supporting decimals
>> is that the developers felt that it would be too hard or too many time
>> to add that... you know, that big always-buggy Java source code, it is
>> better if you don't touch that. "
>
> Ah yes. Sorry, this is what I really think. Actually, this was the
> main reason of my switch to FM earlier. But, please, don't present
> this lonely never-answered mail of mine as the root of the whole
> debate here.
I don't think I presented it that way.
> It has nothing to do with Jonathan (and I guess you
> refereed primary to him when you said "bashing"...) since it was my
> mail, and it has nothing to do with FM or FM team, and this mail
> didn't started any thread anyway, thus it didn't started this current
> thread either (especially because almost nobody know that I'm involved
> in FM when I sent that mail, as far as I remember...)
You wanted an example...
>
>> Now, I may misunderstand the intent of what you were saying, but it appears
>> to be intended to insult.
>
> I haven't had any planned intent with it, just... you know, I tired of
> all Vel.-team waffle about decimals and white-space gobbling and such
> things (since, I was here for a few months ago) and sometimes I lose
> my cold.
>
> [snip]
>>> Well, most designer knows HTML, so I think it is practical to use a
>>> some similar syntax. But FTL never tried to be some kind of SGML, just
>>> mimics it somewhat.
>>
>> By using < >? XML is pretty popular now, so looking at FM people might
>> think it would be a useful tool to integrate with XML.
> [snip]
>
> Well, the template itself is not well-formed XML (somewhat similarly
> to as the template for a HTML is often not valid HTML). But creating
> templates for XML documents is not problem (thanks to the new #
> thing).
--
Geir Magnusson Jr.
geirm@adeptra.com +1-203-355-2219 (w)
Adeptra Inc. +1-203-247-1713 (m)
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu>.
Saturday, October 19, 2002, 6:06:34 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> On 10/19/02 9:43 AM, "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
[snip]
>> Sure... so what? I said that it is not problem if "less people use FM
>> *because Velocity has been improved to a better tool*". And FM
>> "marketing" does not prevent Velocity evolving.
>
> Not at all - and the converse is true as well -> I suppose that
> exposure to Velocity lets you add some of the WM/Velocity things to
> Freemarker, like the <# thingy, the pluggable introspection, the
> ability to use arbitrary public classes in the context rather than
> require FM interfaces. We acknowledge the contributions of WM. What
> templating systems does the FreeMarker site recognize for influence?
I don't know about if it has strong relation to an other engine. But I
don't know... I was not here from the beginning of time.
>>> As to 'better', I think you hit the nail on the head - use the tool that you
>>> think is better. If you think FreeMarker is better, why all this time and
>>> energy spent bashing us here at Velocity?
>>
>> "bashing us"? Well, OK, the relationship between Jonathan and you (and
>> some other Vel. people), and relationship between me and you (and some
>> other Vel. people) is not free from personal aversions.
>
> As far as I know, we have nothing between us. I actually feel no personal
> animosity towards Jonathan.
Really... to say a concrete issue, I remember some slander about
Niggle...
> And yes, 'bashing' is the appropriate term. Here's one from what I think is
> your first post recently :
>
> "I have the feeling that the real reason behind not supporting decimals
> is that the developers felt that it would be too hard or too many time
> to add that... you know, that big always-buggy Java source code, it is
> better if you don't touch that. "
Ah yes. Sorry, this is what I really think. Actually, this was the
main reason of my switch to FM earlier. But, please, don't present
this lonely never-answered mail of mine as the root of the whole
debate here. It has nothing to do with Jonathan (and I guess you
refereed primary to him when you said "bashing"...) since it was my
mail, and it has nothing to do with FM or FM team, and this mail
didn't started any thread anyway, thus it didn't started this current
thread either (especially because almost nobody know that I'm involved
in FM when I sent that mail, as far as I remember...)
> Now, I may misunderstand the intent of what you were saying, but it appears
> to be intended to insult.
I haven't had any planned intent with it, just... you know, I tired of
all Vel.-team waffle about decimals and white-space gobbling and such
things (since, I was here for a few months ago) and sometimes I lose
my cold.
[snip]
>> Well, most designer knows HTML, so I think it is practical to use a
>> some similar syntax. But FTL never tried to be some kind of SGML, just
>> mimics it somewhat.
>
> By using < >? XML is pretty popular now, so looking at FM people might
> think it would be a useful tool to integrate with XML.
[snip]
Well, the template itself is not well-formed XML (somewhat similarly
to as the template for a HTML is often not valid HTML). But creating
templates for XML documents is not problem (thanks to the new #
thing).
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On 10/19/02 9:43 AM, "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
> Saturday, October 19, 2002, 1:29:54 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
>> On 10/18/02 3:41 PM, "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
>>
>>> Friday, October 18, 2002, 10:12:50 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>> I don't understand the passion for the
>>>> developers of a competitive templating system to want us to remove one of
>>>> their differentiators, but I guess that¹s why they didn't take up careers
>>>> in
>>>> marketing.
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>> <OT>
>>> I just can't lave this paragraph without answer...
>>>
>>
>> Ok.
>>
>>> Your paragraph reflects rather anti-free-software approach. Free
>>> software is not about bear down other projects; it is about develop
>>> better tools for people.
>>
>> Then why does it seem like there is an anti-Velocity obsession at
>> FreeMarker? There's a conversion tool, a differentiation page. Anything
>> else?
>
> anti-Velocity... Do you think that a conversion tool and a
> differentiation page is anti-Velocity?
No. Your point was that
"Free software is not about bear down other projects"
I must have misinterpreted it.
I think that having that stuff for your users is great. What I was
remarking on is what appears to be an obsession about Velocity....
> If we would tell lies on the
> diff page, then it would be that, but AFAIK we don't. Well, OTOH, I
> admit that including the addresses of those pages in Jonathan's
> signature maybe goes too far (and I said it to him in private), but,
> anyway, that's not a big problem either. I mean, nobody should piss
> off on that. (Why is it that a big problem?)
Having those addresses in his signature is his business. Again, I just
wonder about the obsession. I don't think anyone has expressed having a
problem with that.
>
> Also, we don't consider as anti-FreeMarker if you add a FreeMarker vs
> Velocity page to the FreeMarker page, *if* that's correct.
>
We'll, if we want to do that, it's good to know you don't have a problem.
>>> I don't care if less people use FM *because
>>> Velocity has been improved to a better tool* (I don't say "we don't
>>> care", since I don't know Jonathan's and Attila's exact opinion). It
>>> is not bad for me if Velocity becomes to a better tool, not even if it
>>> outstrips FreeMarker (However, frankly, I don't think it will happen;
>>> currently Velocity lagging far behind FreeMarker 2.1, and it seems
>>> that the gap will grow further). I will support the tool what I find
>>> better.
>>
>> Come on. Lets stop with the posturing. Jonathan is very transparently
>> trying to market FreeMarker. If I recall from the last time he tried this,
>> he was very explicit about acknowledging what he was doing. I'll see if I
>> can find a link.
>
> Sure... so what? I said that it is not problem if "less people use FM
> *because Velocity has been improved to a better tool*". And FM
> "marketing" does not prevent Velocity evolving.
Not at all - and the converse is true as well -> I suppose that exposure to
Velocity lets you add some of the WM/Velocity things to Freemarker, like the
<# thingy, the pluggable introspection, the ability to use arbitrary public
classes in the context rather than require FM interfaces. We acknowledge
the contributions of WM. What templating systems does the FreeMarker site
recognize for influence?
>
>> As to 'better', I think you hit the nail on the head - use the tool that you
>> think is better. If you think FreeMarker is better, why all this time and
>> energy spent bashing us here at Velocity?
>
> "bashing us"? Well, OK, the relationship between Jonathan and you (and
> some other Vel. people), and relationship between me and you (and some
> other Vel. people) is not free from personal aversions.
As far as I know, we have nothing between us. I actually feel no personal
animosity towards Jonathan.
And yes, 'bashing' is the appropriate term. Here's one from what I think is
your first post recently :
"I have the feeling that the real reason behind not supporting decimals
is that the developers felt that it would be too hard or too many time
to add that... you know, that big always-buggy Java source code, it is
better if you don't touch that. "
Now, I may misunderstand the intent of what you were saying, but it appears
to be intended to insult.
>On my side it
> has *nothing* to do with the fact that I cleanly prefer FreeMarker
> over Velocity, and that I'm involved in FreeMarker. And I guess (but I
> can't tell it for sure...) that it goes for Jonathan as well. And,
> basically he brings up technical topics here, and even if it is
> sometimes visible that he is angry on Velocity team (again, the reason
> of this anger is not that Velocity is a "competitive templating
> system"), I don't think he "bashing" Velocity. Well, when some list
> reader stars to answers with personal attacks, then he will "bash" as
> well.
>
>> You have made direct insults - you may not have meant them that way,
>> but they could have been construed as attempting to insult.
>>
>> As for your comment about other projects :
>>
>> You may not realize it, but this is our third visit from Jonathan to this
>> list.
>
> (That's not a problem in itself.)
It is because it ends always the same way. No reason to rehash the
details....
>
>> This round started ok - the usual pattern of some gratuitous attempt at
>> making some relevant point related to templating or Velocity, and then the
>> freemarker plug. I think I once offered a Velocity template to make it
>> easier for him. :)
>
> Well, I would call this habit "annoying", but it is cleanly not the
> "bashing" of Veloicty or attack against Velocity. I said him that he
> *overdoes* this thing, but he keeps saying that, because of the unfair
> advantage of Vel. (i.e. it is hosted by apache.org) he has no better
> choice. But I don't think that doing this thing in general is bad.
Ok. I guess this is one of things that¹s subject to interpretation.
>
>> I think it's cool if the freemarker people would post announcements here
>> about freemarker releases and such, but just posting message after message
>> noting freemarker capabilities is, I believe, counter productive to his
>> intent. It's not my problem until he becomes abusive, which he does (and now
>> has) in an absolutely predictable way, and then we have to decide what to do
>> about it.
>
> I don't think that he started the abusive behavior here... sure, you
> can find quotes where he did or I did that, but mainly it is not true.
>
> [snip]
>> I am sure that FreeMarker 2 is a very fine package. I know of Attila's
>> work, which I think is excellent. Jonathan seems to think his work is
>> great, and I don't know anything to the contrary. I don't know about your
>> contributions to freemarker, but I am sure they are valuable as you appear
>> to be interested and sincere. (Maybe you should ask to have your name added
>> to the "Who we are" page?)
>
> (Umm... What do you want to say with this?) The two main developer of
> FM is cleanly Jonathan and Attila. (Probably I can get a third
> placing, far behind the second place.) And, simply I don't care if my
> name is there or not... who cares? (OK, maybe when you are looking for
> job...)
I just looked at the "Who we are" page and didn¹t see you. It really
doesn't matter to me.
>
>> I do wonder about a syntax that mimics XML w/ the pointy brackets, but
>> doesn't seem to be well formed, thus making it appear difficult to use with
>> XML. <if ...> <else> </if> - seems like you would need to shove a </else>
>> somewhere... But it's just intellectual curiosity - I'll ask Attila someday
>> when I remember - and I certainly am not going to spooge the FreeMarker list
>> about this. You guys clearly have a reason for doing it this way, the users
>> don't seem to care, and that's just peachy with me.
>
> Well, most designer knows HTML, so I think it is practical to use a
> some similar syntax. But FTL never tried to be some kind of SGML, just
> mimics it somewhat.
By using < >? XML is pretty popular now, so looking at FM people might
think it would be a useful tool to integrate with XML.
For example, I did a big project for a client where we mix Velocity's VSL
with XSLT, producing the ability to do procedural processing parts w/in the
XSLT process.
I can't see how you could do that with Freemarker. But that really isn't a
big deal to me. I don't use freemarker, so I have no interest in talking
(or insulting) you about it.
> But... returning to the <else> problem. This is always a problem with
> "SGML-style" languages. Actually, freemarker interprets this:
>
> <if foo>
> a
> <elseif bar>
> b
> <elseif baaz>
> c
> <else>
> d
> </if>
>
> as something like:
>
> <IFBLOCK>
> <IF foo>
> a
> </IF>
> <ELSEIF bar>
> b
> </ELSEIF>
> <ELSEIF baaz>
> c
> </ELSEIF>
> <ELSE>
> d
> </ELSE>
> </IFBLOCK>
>
> Just IMO it would be a bad idea in practice to use this logic on the
> template language level, even if it is more logical. More typing, and
> anyway, I guess most developers would not realize that it is more
> logical now...
As a casual observer - the problem I see is that an XML parser will choke on
any FreeMarker markup in a document. If you went ot eh more verbose syntax,
I agree that it would be more typing...
--
Geir Magnusson Jr.
geirm@adeptra.com +1-203-355-2219 (w)
Adeptra Inc. +1-203-247-1713 (m)
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu>.
Saturday, October 19, 2002, 1:29:54 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> On 10/18/02 3:41 PM, "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
>
>> Friday, October 18, 2002, 10:12:50 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>> I don't understand the passion for the
>>> developers of a competitive templating system to want us to remove one of
>>> their differentiators, but I guess that¹s why they didn't take up careers in
>>> marketing.
>> [snip]
>>
>> <OT>
>> I just can't lave this paragraph without answer...
>>
>
> Ok.
>
>> Your paragraph reflects rather anti-free-software approach. Free
>> software is not about bear down other projects; it is about develop
>> better tools for people.
>
> Then why does it seem like there is an anti-Velocity obsession at
> FreeMarker? There's a conversion tool, a differentiation page. Anything
> else?
anti-Velocity... Do you think that a conversion tool and a
differentiation page is anti-Velocity? If we would tell lies on the
diff page, then it would be that, but AFAIK we don't. Well, OTOH, I
admit that including the addresses of those pages in Jonathan's
signature maybe goes too far (and I said it to him in private), but,
anyway, that's not a big problem either. I mean, nobody should piss
off on that. (Why is it that a big problem?)
Also, we don't consider as anti-FreeMarker if you add a FreeMarker vs
Velocity page to the FreeMarker page, *if* that's correct.
>>I don't care if less people use FM *because
>> Velocity has been improved to a better tool* (I don't say "we don't
>> care", since I don't know Jonathan's and Attila's exact opinion). It
>> is not bad for me if Velocity becomes to a better tool, not even if it
>> outstrips FreeMarker (However, frankly, I don't think it will happen;
>> currently Velocity lagging far behind FreeMarker 2.1, and it seems
>> that the gap will grow further). I will support the tool what I find
>> better.
>
> Come on. Lets stop with the posturing. Jonathan is very transparently
> trying to market FreeMarker. If I recall from the last time he tried this,
> he was very explicit about acknowledging what he was doing. I'll see if I
> can find a link.
Sure... so what? I said that it is not problem if "less people use FM
*because Velocity has been improved to a better tool*". And FM
"marketing" does not prevent Velocity evolving.
> As to 'better', I think you hit the nail on the head - use the tool that you
> think is better. If you think FreeMarker is better, why all this time and
> energy spent bashing us here at Velocity?
"bashing us"? Well, OK, the relationship between Jonathan and you (and
some other Vel. people), and relationship between me and you (and some
other Vel. people) is not free from personal aversions. On my side it
has *nothing* to do with the fact that I cleanly prefer FreeMarker
over Velocity, and that I'm involved in FreeMarker. And I guess (but I
can't tell it for sure...) that it goes for Jonathan as well. And,
basically he brings up technical topics here, and even if it is
sometimes visible that he is angry on Velocity team (again, the reason
of this anger is not that Velocity is a "competitive templating
system"), I don't think he "bashing" Velocity. Well, when some list
reader stars to answers with personal attacks, then he will "bash" as
well.
> You have made direct insults - you may not have meant them that way,
> but they could have been construed as attempting to insult.
>
> As for your comment about other projects :
>
> You may not realize it, but this is our third visit from Jonathan to this
> list.
(That's not a problem in itself.)
> This round started ok - the usual pattern of some gratuitous attempt at
> making some relevant point related to templating or Velocity, and then the
> freemarker plug. I think I once offered a Velocity template to make it
> easier for him. :)
Well, I would call this habit "annoying", but it is cleanly not the
"bashing" of Veloicty or attack against Velocity. I said him that he
*overdoes* this thing, but he keeps saying that, because of the unfair
advantage of Vel. (i.e. it is hosted by apache.org) he has no better
choice. But I don't think that doing this thing in general is bad.
> I think it's cool if the freemarker people would post announcements here
> about freemarker releases and such, but just posting message after message
> noting freemarker capabilities is, I believe, counter productive to his
> intent. It's not my problem until he becomes abusive, which he does (and now
> has) in an absolutely predictable way, and then we have to decide what to do
> about it.
I don't think that he started the abusive behavior here... sure, you
can find quotes where he did or I did that, but mainly it is not true.
[snip]
> I am sure that FreeMarker 2 is a very fine package. I know of Attila's
> work, which I think is excellent. Jonathan seems to think his work is
> great, and I don't know anything to the contrary. I don't know about your
> contributions to freemarker, but I am sure they are valuable as you appear
> to be interested and sincere. (Maybe you should ask to have your name added
> to the "Who we are" page?)
(Umm... What do you want to say with this?) The two main developer of
FM is cleanly Jonathan and Attila. (Probably I can get a third
placing, far behind the second place.) And, simply I don't care if my
name is there or not... who cares? (OK, maybe when you are looking for
job...)
> I do wonder about a syntax that mimics XML w/ the pointy brackets, but
> doesn't seem to be well formed, thus making it appear difficult to use with
> XML. <if ...> <else> </if> - seems like you would need to shove a </else>
> somewhere... But it's just intellectual curiosity - I'll ask Attila someday
> when I remember - and I certainly am not going to spooge the FreeMarker list
> about this. You guys clearly have a reason for doing it this way, the users
> don't seem to care, and that's just peachy with me.
Well, most designer knows HTML, so I think it is practical to use a
some similar syntax. But FTL never tried to be some kind of SGML, just
mimics it somewhat.
But... returning to the <else> problem. This is always a problem with
"SGML-style" languages. Actually, freemarker interprets this:
<if foo>
a
<elseif bar>
b
<elseif baaz>
c
<else>
d
</if>
as something like:
<IFBLOCK>
<IF foo>
a
</IF>
<ELSEIF bar>
b
</ELSEIF>
<ELSEIF baaz>
c
</ELSEIF>
<ELSE>
d
</ELSE>
</IFBLOCK>
Just IMO it would be a bad idea in practice to use this logic on the
template language level, even if it is more logical. More typing, and
anyway, I guess most developers would not realize that it is more
logical now...
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On 10/18/02 3:41 PM, "Daniel Dekany" <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
> Friday, October 18, 2002, 10:12:50 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>
> [snip]
>> I don't understand the passion for the
>> developers of a competitive templating system to want us to remove one of
>> their differentiators, but I guess that¹s why they didn't take up careers in
>> marketing.
> [snip]
>
> <OT>
> I just can't lave this paragraph without answer...
>
Ok.
> Your paragraph reflects rather anti-free-software approach. Free
> software is not about bear down other projects; it is about develop
> better tools for people.
Then why does it seem like there is an anti-Velocity obsession at
FreeMarker? There's a conversion tool, a differentiation page. Anything
else?
>I don't care if less people use FM *because
> Velocity has been improved to a better tool* (I don't say "we don't
> care", since I don't know Jonathan's and Attila's exact opinion). It
> is not bad for me if Velocity becomes to a better tool, not even if it
> outstrips FreeMarker (However, frankly, I don't think it will happen;
> currently Velocity lagging far behind FreeMarker 2.1, and it seems
> that the gap will grow further). I will support the tool what I find
> better.
Come on. Lets stop with the posturing. Jonathan is very transparently
trying to market FreeMarker. If I recall from the last time he tried this,
he was very explicit about acknowledging what he was doing. I'll see if I
can find a link.
As to 'better', I think you hit the nail on the head - use the tool that you
think is better. If you think FreeMarker is better, why all this time and
energy spent bashing us here at Velocity? You have made direct insults -
you may not have meant them that way, but they could have been construed as
attempting to insult.
As for your comment about other projects :
You may not realize it, but this is our third visit from Jonathan to this
list.
This round started ok - the usual pattern of some gratuitous attempt at
making some relevant point related to templating or Velocity, and then the
freemarker plug. I think I once offered a Velocity template to make it
easier for him. :)
I think it's cool if the freemarker people would post announcements here
about freemarker releases and such, but just posting message after message
noting freemarker capabilities is, I believe, counter productive to his
intent. It's not my problem until he becomes abusive, which he does (and now
has) in an absolutely predictable way, and then we have to decide what to do
about it. The current suggestions are to just cut him off. I think most
people just put him in their real or virtual killfile. If (and when) I
threw him off the list, I am sure it would be added to his ever-growing list
of krimes I appear to be guilty of, but that's a cross I have to bear I
guess.
> Also, I guess the main reasons of our moderate success compared to the
> success of Velocity is that:
> - We are not hosted by apache.org. You see, apache.org is well-known
> place, also it gives a lot of credit to your product (thanks to famous
> and great products like Apache httpd).
> - FreeMarker 2 is very young compared to Velocity (the FM 2 series is
> much better than FM 1 was). Probably later it will be more well-known.
> (Neither reason is the mistake of current FM developers.)
I am sure that FreeMarker 2 is a very fine package. I know of Attila's
work, which I think is excellent. Jonathan seems to think his work is
great, and I don't know anything to the contrary. I don't know about your
contributions to freemarker, but I am sure they are valuable as you appear
to be interested and sincere. (Maybe you should ask to have your name added
to the "Who we are" page?)
I do wonder about a syntax that mimics XML w/ the pointy brackets, but
doesn't seem to be well formed, thus making it appear difficult to use with
XML. <if ...> <else> </if> - seems like you would need to shove a </else>
somewhere... But it's just intellectual curiosity - I'll ask Attila someday
when I remember - and I certainly am not going to spooge the FreeMarker list
about this. You guys clearly have a reason for doing it this way, the users
don't seem to care, and that's just peachy with me.
--
Geir Magnusson Jr.
geirm@adeptra.com +1-203-355-2219 (w)
Adeptra Inc. +1-203-247-1713 (m)
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu>.
Friday, October 18, 2002, 10:12:50 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
[snip]
> I don't understand the passion for the
> developers of a competitive templating system to want us to remove one of
> their differentiators, but I guess that¹s why they didn't take up careers in
> marketing.
[snip]
<OT>
I just can't lave this paragraph without answer...
Your paragraph reflects rather anti-free-software approach. Free
software is not about bear down other projects; it is about develop
better tools for people. I don't care if less people use FM *because
Velocity has been improved to a better tool* (I don't say "we don't
care", since I don't know Jonathan's and Attila's exact opinion). It
is not bad for me if Velocity becomes to a better tool, not even if it
outstrips FreeMarker (However, frankly, I don't think it will happen;
currently Velocity lagging far behind FreeMarker 2.1, and it seems
that the gap will grow further). I will support the tool what I find
better.
Also, I guess the main reasons of our moderate success compared to the
success of Velocity is that:
- We are not hosted by apache.org. You see, apache.org is well-known
place, also it gives a lot of credit to your product (thanks to famous
and great products like Apache httpd).
- FreeMarker 2 is very young compared to Velocity (the FM 2 series is
much better than FM 1 was). Probably later it will be more well-known.
(Neither reason is the mistake of current FM developers.)
</OT>
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Re: The Debate: [was RE: Bozo Filter Available?]
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@optonline.net>.
On 10/17/02 6:35 PM, "Paul Smith" <Pa...@lawlex.com.au> wrote:
> I think a more refined filter is required than a Bozo filter, as I think it
> might filter me out too (should have seen me code yesterday.... ;) )
>
> Personally I don't mind and actually would like to encourage a vigorous
> debate on any Velocity issues as it is healthy, but I would ask that all
> participants to think first before putting fingers to keyboards. Have a
> think about the tone of the message in particular, and the audience it's
> going to, we're all very pationate people. Stay technical. Some elements
> of some of the messages I've read seem entirely designed to be inflamatory,
> even if they are technically based.
>
> If you review the archives of this list over the past 6 months, it is also
> apparant that Jonathan was going to unsubscribe from this list of his own
> free will (after a similar, but with perhaps a higher DefCon-status series
> of 'discussions'). It is interesting that he has chosen to return to
> participate in this list (if he ever really left?), I'll let Jonathon speak
> for himself on his reasons for returning to the fold.
Jonathan has kept his word. I have been moderating all of his posts
through.
My position last time (and the time before that...) was that I'm happy to
discuss templating issues here, so constructive discussion is welcome.
Other users have expressed the desire that this list just pertain to
velocity templating issues. We have to strike the balance dynamically, I
guess.
It's clear that the current discussion is, well, lets say "Brought to you by
the fine makers of Freemarker..." I don't understand the passion for the
developers of a competitive templating system to want us to remove one of
their differentiators, but I guess that¹s why they didn't take up careers in
marketing.
Geir
>
> I would hope for his and Freemarker's sake that things are going so well and
> that the team is so busy adding cool features to it and assisting Freemarker
> users that there is no need to even think about Velocity. I would also like
> to point out that from a purely marketing point of view, regardless of
> technical issues, this debate is not improving Freemarker's image one iota.
> So much of this world is about perception, just remember that.
>
> Jonathan, I wish I had your free time.
>
> regards,
>
> Paul Smith
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Terry Steichen [mailto:terry@net-frame.com]
> Sent: Friday, 18 October 2002 3:51 AM
> To: velocity-user@jakarta.apache.org
> Subject: Bozo Filter Available?
>
>
> Geir,
>
> Do we have a bozo filter we could use? Or would a spam-trap work better.
> This guy (guess who?) is doing more harm for his product/cause than he seems
> to imagine. (Probably doesn't have enough traffic on his own list to keep
> busy.)
>
> Terry
>
>
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>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr.
geirm@adeptra.com +1-203-355-2219 (w)
Adeptra Inc. +1-203-247-1713 (m)
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