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Posted to c-dev@xerces.apache.org by Murray Cumming <Mu...@BetaResearch.de> on 2001/09/03 09:37:50 UTC
Re: Changing include to include/xercesc - Summary and Vote
re-posting:
Murray Cumming wrote:
>
> So what's the result of the vote?
>
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Re: Changing include to include/xercesc - Vote Results
Posted by "Jason E. Stewart" <ja...@openinformatics.com>.
"Murray Cumming" <Mu...@BetaResearch.de> writes:
> Here's a list of votes from my mail archive, with the most recent votes
> first:
>
> Martin Kalen: -1
> Bob Vaughn: 0
> Arnold Curt: -0
> John Mark Newton +1
> Olivier Schmitt: +1
> Jason E. Stewart +1
> Hans Silvisberg: +1
> J.J. Merelo: -1
> Gary Gale: +1
> Erik Rydgren: -1
> Peter A. Volchek: -1
> Steve Hespelt: 1
> Christopher Dam Brunn: 1
> Jesse Pelton: +0
> David Adams: -1 (said 0, but said 'No')
> Murray Cumming: +1
> Tinny Ng: 0
>
> Totals:
> -1: 5
> 0: 4
> +1: 8
> Simple Total: +3
>
> The only list of committers that I have is here:
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xerces-c-dev&m=99805694327734&w=2
> It doesn't look like any committer apart form Tinny Ng actually voted.
I'm a committer via Xerces-P.
jas.
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Changing include to include/xercesc - Vote Results
Posted by Murray Cumming <Mu...@BetaResearch.de>.
Here's a list of votes from my mail archive, with the most recent votes
first:
Martin Kalen: -1
Bob Vaughn: 0
Arnold Curt: -0
John Mark Newton +1
Olivier Schmitt: +1
Jason E. Stewart +1
Hans Silvisberg: +1
J.J. Merelo: -1
Gary Gale: +1
Erik Rydgren: -1
Peter A. Volchek: -1
Steve Hespelt: 1
Christopher Dam Brunn: 1
Jesse Pelton: +0
David Adams: -1 (said 0, but said 'No')
Murray Cumming: +1
Tinny Ng: 0
Totals:
-1: 5
0: 4
+1: 8
Simple Total: +3
The only list of committers that I have is here:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xerces-c-dev&m=99805694327734&w=2
It doesn't look like any committer apart form Tinny Ng actually voted.
I extracted these votes from paragraphs of text, and I am capable of
human error, so feel free to do your own counts.
--
Murray Cumming
www.murrayc.com
murrayc@usa.net
"Jason E. Stewart" wrote:
>
> "Murray Cumming" <Mu...@BetaResearch.de> writes:
>
> > "Jason E. Stewart" wrote:
> > >
> > > "Murray Cumming" <Mu...@BetaResearch.de> writes:
> > >
> > > > re-posting:
> > > >
> > > > Murray Cumming wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > So what's the result of the vote?
> > > > >
> > >
> > > The result is as it has been all along. No one but you is really fired
> > > up over this issue. If you want a vote summary, go through the archive
> > > and count it, and write it up here and if it looks good, threaten to
> > > start committing files unless people respond...
> >
> > I assumed that the guy who started the vote would count the vote. He
> > probably has a better idea than me about who's vote counts. Mine
> > doesn't, and I don't have cvs commit rights.
>
> Yes, but....
>
> Tinny has already said he's agnostic about this topic, so it's
> unlikely he's going to do much.
>
> I'm in favor of the changes, but I'm also too busy to do much (like
> tallying votes).
>
> On the other hand, I do have commit priveleges.
>
> So...
>
> My suggestion stands:
>
> * count the votes, and print us a summary with email addresses and how
> they voted (Tinny wanted to open this up to all Xerces users, so
> let's give that a try).
>
> * what are the vote rules?? Can't have more than Y -1's?
>
> * if favorable we need to start the discussion of how to implement the
> changes. I believe there where two ideas, CVS repos fiddling, and
> bulk remove, bulk add.
>
> jas.
>
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Re: Changing include to include/xercesc - Summary and Vote
Posted by "Jason E. Stewart" <ja...@openinformatics.com>.
"Tinny Ng" <tn...@ca.ibm.com> writes:
> So depends on the type of "Action Items" this issue belongs to, it
> is either classified as consensus (i.e. no vetos) or majority vote
> (i.e. +1s > -1s). I think this "changeing include" issue either
> belongs to "Showstoppers" or "Product changes" category and thus
> should be subject to lazy consensus. Since we have limited number
> of committers and we initially opened this vote to all users, we can
> count all users' vote. If there is any veto, and if you disagree
> with the veto, you should lobby the person who cast the veto. Until
> all vetos are resolved, then we can move on from there.
Next time we feel a vote is required, I think that this should be
decided *before* the vote, yes? Then we can point out to people what
the significance of voting -1 really is, yes?
Ok. So my advice for proceeding is that Murray make all the necessary
changes to Xerces, and provide me with a working source tarball. I
will put it on the WWW site in the experimental/ section.
At that point, Murray can indicate *exactly* what people need to do
that is different from what they currently do, *and* they can download
it and test it.
Then we discuss it.
jas.
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Re: Changing include to include/xercesc - Summary and Vote
Posted by "Jason E. Stewart" <ja...@openinformatics.com>.
"Arnaud Le Hors" <le...@us.ibm.com> writes:
> "Jason E. Stewart" wrote:
> >
> > I believe that Tinny indicated that since he opened the vote to all
> > developers, *any* -1 vote is a veto.
>
> Just so you know, Tinny is probably too shy to mention it but you should
> have written:
>
> I believe that Tinny indicated that since SHE opened the vote to all
> developers, *any* -1 vote is a veto.
>
> Nope, this is not a male only project. :-)
Thanks Arnaud, my bad assumption. I'm sorry Tinny for being
chauvenistic.
Cheers,
jas.
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Re: Changing include to include/xercesc - Summary and Vote
Posted by Arnaud Le Hors <le...@us.ibm.com>.
"Jason E. Stewart" wrote:
>
> I believe that Tinny indicated that since he opened the vote to all
> developers, *any* -1 vote is a veto.
Just so you know, Tinny is probably too shy to mention it but you should
have written:
I believe that Tinny indicated that since SHE opened the vote to all
developers, *any* -1 vote is a veto.
Nope, this is not a male only project. :-)
--
Arnaud Le Hors - IBM, XML Standards Strategy Group / W3C AC Rep.
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Re: Changing include to include/xercesc - Summary and Vote
Posted by "Jason E. Stewart" <ja...@openinformatics.com>.
"Murray Cumming" <Mu...@BetaResearch.de> writes:
> Tinny Ng wrote:
>
> > If there is any veto, and if you disagree
> > with the veto, you should lobby the person who cast the veto. Until
> > all vetos are resolved, then we can move on from there.
> >
> > Tinny
>
> Are there any vetos?
> == Are there any -1s from committers?
I believe that Tinny indicated that since he opened the vote to all
developers, *any* -1 vote is a veto.
jas.
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Re: Changing include to include/xercesc - Experimental tarball
Posted by "Jason E. Stewart" <ja...@openinformatics.com>.
"Murray Cumming" <Mu...@BetaResearch.de> writes:
> Here's a tarball of a Xerces-C++ with the discussed changes:
> http://www.murrayc.com/temp/xercesc_sane_includes.tar.gz
> Apparently I'm supposed to upload this to the 'experimental folder'.
> Maybe somebody could do this or tell me where that folder is.
Done. Plus I added your email as a README:
http://xml.apache.org/dist/xerces-c/experimental/
I'll give it try. Thanks Murray!
jas.
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Changing include to include/xercesc - Experimental tarball
Posted by Murray Cumming <Mu...@BetaResearch.de>.
Here's a tarball of a Xerces-C++ with the discussed changes:
http://www.murrayc.com/temp/xercesc_sane_includes.tar.gz
Apparently I'm supposed to upload this to the 'experimental folder'.
Maybe somebody could do this or tell me where that folder is.
I expect that we still need to make minor include path changes to
project files such as the MS Visual C++ and Borland project files, but I
don't have the setup for that.
Here's a recap:
What does this give you?
- You may now do this:
#include "xercesc/somefolder/someheader.h"
instead of this:
#include "somefolder/someheader.h"
- This should prevent clashes with headers of the same name, as well as
making your code clearer.
What do you need to do differently?
- Either
a) Change your #include lines to contain 'xercesc/'. This is the best
choice in the long term.
or b) Change the include path in your build files/projects:
- if your include path is e.g.
/home/murrayc/xercescdownload/include,
then change it to
/home/murrayc/xercescdownload/include/xerces.
- if your include path is /usr/local/include then change it to
/usr/local/include/xercesc.
- Be careful if using /usr/include. With gcc, you probably shouldn't
specify this yourself because it is an implict include path, and
specifying it seems to override other implicit include paths.
- This will be supereasy in future if we provide a command-line script
which our build files can call to get the appropriate include and
linking arguments.
What changes were made to achieve this?
- The src directory was renamed to xercesc.
- Makefile.incl files were changed to copy into ../include/xercesc
instead od ../include
- Makefile.incl files were changed to use the appropriate include path.
- All #includes in the code were changed to use "xerces/" where
necessary.
How will we integrate these changes again later:
- Just rename xercesc back to src, create a diff, apply the diff to the
up-to-date code, and rename src to xercesc.
- The changes are simple and they are in parts of the files which are
unlikely to be touched by other work.
Murray Cumming
www.murrayc.com
murrayc@usa.net
Murray Cumming wrote:
>
> Tinny Ng wrote:
> >
> > According to your summary of count, if we count committers votes only,
> > then we don't have any vetos, but we also don't have enough 3 binding +1
> > votes. If we count all users' votes, we have enough 3 +1 votes, but then
> > there are -1s as well ....
> >
> > Anyway, I think Jason's suggestion sounds good. Put the source tar in the
> > experimental folder and let people play with it for a couple of months.
> > Set a deadline for testing period. If no complaints, then put into CVS
> > later after the deadline ....
>
> OK. I will do that. Thank you.
>
> I just asked, because I thought that you were saying that I had to do
> some more lobbying. Nevermind.
>
> > Tinny
> >
> > Murray Cumming wrote:
> >
> > > Tinny Ng wrote:
> > >
> > > > If there is any veto, and if you disagree
> > > > with the veto, you should lobby the person who cast the veto. Until
> > > > all vetos are resolved, then we can move on from there.
> > > >
> > > > Tinny
> > >
> > > Are there any vetos?
> > > == Are there any -1s from committers?
> > >
> > > --
> > > Murray Cumming
> > > www.murrayc.com
> > > murrayc@usa.net
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: xerces-c-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: xerces-c-dev-help@xml.apache.org
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
> --
> Murray Cumming
> www.murrayc.com
> murrayc@usa.net
>
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Re: Changing include to include/xercesc - Summary and Vote
Posted by Murray Cumming <Mu...@BetaResearch.de>.
Tinny Ng wrote:
>
> According to your summary of count, if we count committers votes only,
> then we don't have any vetos, but we also don't have enough 3 binding +1
> votes. If we count all users' votes, we have enough 3 +1 votes, but then
> there are -1s as well ....
>
> Anyway, I think Jason's suggestion sounds good. Put the source tar in the
> experimental folder and let people play with it for a couple of months.
> Set a deadline for testing period. If no complaints, then put into CVS
> later after the deadline ....
OK. I will do that. Thank you.
I just asked, because I thought that you were saying that I had to do
some more lobbying. Nevermind.
> Tinny
>
> Murray Cumming wrote:
>
> > Tinny Ng wrote:
> >
> > > If there is any veto, and if you disagree
> > > with the veto, you should lobby the person who cast the veto. Until
> > > all vetos are resolved, then we can move on from there.
> > >
> > > Tinny
> >
> > Are there any vetos?
> > == Are there any -1s from committers?
> >
> > --
> > Murray Cumming
> > www.murrayc.com
> > murrayc@usa.net
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: xerces-c-dev-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: xerces-c-dev-help@xml.apache.org
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Changing include to include/xercesc - Summary and Vote
Posted by "Jason E. Stewart" <ja...@openinformatics.com>.
"Tinny Ng" <tn...@ca.ibm.com> writes:
> According to your summary of count, if we count committers votes only,
> then we don't have any vetos, but we also don't have enough 3 binding +1
> votes. If we count all users' votes, we have enough 3 +1 votes, but then
> there are -1s as well ....
>
> Anyway, I think Jason's suggestion sounds good. Put the source tar in the
> experimental folder and let people play with it for a couple of months.
> Set a deadline for testing period. If no complaints, then put into CVS
> later after the deadline ....
Perfect. Thanks Tinny. The testing period with a deadline, with a new
round of (possible) complaints is very useful.
jas.
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Re: Changing include to include/xercesc - Summary and Vote
Posted by Tinny Ng <tn...@ca.ibm.com>.
According to your summary of count, if we count committers votes only,
then we don't have any vetos, but we also don't have enough 3 binding +1
votes. If we count all users' votes, we have enough 3 +1 votes, but then
there are -1s as well ....
Anyway, I think Jason's suggestion sounds good. Put the source tar in the
experimental folder and let people play with it for a couple of months.
Set a deadline for testing period. If no complaints, then put into CVS
later after the deadline ....
Tinny
Murray Cumming wrote:
> Tinny Ng wrote:
>
> > If there is any veto, and if you disagree
> > with the veto, you should lobby the person who cast the veto. Until
> > all vetos are resolved, then we can move on from there.
> >
> > Tinny
>
> Are there any vetos?
> == Are there any -1s from committers?
>
> --
> Murray Cumming
> www.murrayc.com
> murrayc@usa.net
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Changing include to include/xercesc - Summary and Vote
Posted by Murray Cumming <Mu...@BetaResearch.de>.
Tinny Ng wrote:
> If there is any veto, and if you disagree
> with the veto, you should lobby the person who cast the veto. Until
> all vetos are resolved, then we can move on from there.
>
> Tinny
Are there any vetos?
== Are there any -1s from committers?
--
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www.murrayc.com
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Re: Changing include to include/xercesc - Summary and Vote
Posted by Tinny Ng <tn...@ca.ibm.com>.
"Jason E. Stewart" wrote:
>
> * what are the vote rules?? Can't have more than Y -1's?
>
Here is the guideline from Apache: http://xml.apache.org/decisions.html
Decision Making
All Developers are encouraged to participate in decisions,
but the
decision itself is made by those that have Committer status
in the
Project. In other words, the Project is a "Minimum Threshold
Meritocracy".
Any Developer may vote on any issue or action item. However,
the
only binding votes are those cast by a Committer. If the vote
is about a
change to the source code or documentation and the primary
author is
a Developer and not a Commiter, the primary author of what is
being
changed may also cast a binding vote on that issue.
The act of voting carries certain obligations. Voting members
are not
only stating their opinion, they are also agreeing to help do
the work.
Each vote can be made in one of three flavors:
+1 - "Yes," "Agree," or "the action should be
performed." On
some issues this is only binding if the voter has tested
the action
on their own system(s).
+/-0 - "Abstain," "no opinion". An abstention may have
detrimental effects if too many people abstain.
-1 - "No." On issues where consensus is required, this
vote
counts as a veto. All vetos must contain an explanation
of why
the veto is appropriate. Vetos with no explanation are
void. No
veto can be overruled. If you disagree with the veto,
you should
lobby the person who cast the veto. Voters intending to
veto an
action item should make their opinions known to the
group
immediately so that the problem can be remedied as early
as
possible.
An action requiring consensus approval must receive at least
3
binding +1 votes and no binding vetos. An action requiring
majority
approval must receive at least 3 binding +1 votes and more +1
votes than -1 votes. All other action items are considered to
have lazy
approval until somebody votes - 1, after which point they are
decided
by either consensus or majority vote, depending on the type
of action
item.
Action Items
All decisions revolve around "Action Items." Action Items
consist of the
following:
Long Term Plans
Short Term Plans
Release Plan
Release Testing
Showstoppers
Product Changes
Long Term Plans
Long term plans are simply announcements that group members
are working on
particular issues related to the Project. These are not
voted on, but Developers
who do not agree with a particular plan, or think that an
alternative plan would be
better, are obligated to inform the group of their feelings.
Short Term Plans
Short term plans are announcements that a developer is
working on a particular
set of documentation or code files with the implication that
other developers
should avoid them or try to coordinate their changes.
Release Plan
A release plan is used to keep all Developers aware of when
a release is desired,
who will be the release manager, when the repository will be
frozen to create a
release, and other assorted information to keep Developers
from tripping over each
other. Lazy majority decides each issue in a release plan.
Release Testing
After a new release is built, it must be tested before being
released to the public.
Majority approval is required before the release can be
made.
Showstoppers
Showstoppers are issues that require a fix be in place
before the next public
release. They are listed in the status file in order to
focus special attention on
these problems. An issue becomes a showstopper when it is
listed as such in the
status file and remains so by lazy consensus.
Product Changes
Changes to the products of the Project, including code and
documentation, will
appear as action items in the status file. All product
changes to the currently
active repository are subject to lazy consensus.
So depends on the type of "Action Items" this issue belongs to, it is either
classified as consensus (i.e. no vetos) or majority vote (i.e. +1s > -1s).
I think this "changeing include" issue either belongs to "Showstoppers" or
"Product changes" category and thus should be subject to lazy consensus.
Since we have limited number of committers and we initially opened this vote
to all users, we can count all users' vote. If there is any veto, and if you
disagree with the veto, you should lobby the person who cast the veto. Until
all vetos are resolved, then we can move on from there.
Tinny
Re: Changing include to include/xercesc - Summary and Vote
Posted by "Jason E. Stewart" <ja...@openinformatics.com>.
"Murray Cumming" <Mu...@BetaResearch.de> writes:
> "Jason E. Stewart" wrote:
> >
> > "Murray Cumming" <Mu...@BetaResearch.de> writes:
> >
> > > re-posting:
> > >
> > > Murray Cumming wrote:
> > > >
> > > > So what's the result of the vote?
> > > >
> >
> > The result is as it has been all along. No one but you is really fired
> > up over this issue. If you want a vote summary, go through the archive
> > and count it, and write it up here and if it looks good, threaten to
> > start committing files unless people respond...
>
> I assumed that the guy who started the vote would count the vote. He
> probably has a better idea than me about who's vote counts. Mine
> doesn't, and I don't have cvs commit rights.
Yes, but....
Tinny has already said he's agnostic about this topic, so it's
unlikely he's going to do much.
I'm in favor of the changes, but I'm also too busy to do much (like
tallying votes).
On the other hand, I do have commit priveleges.
So...
My suggestion stands:
* count the votes, and print us a summary with email addresses and how
they voted (Tinny wanted to open this up to all Xerces users, so
let's give that a try).
* what are the vote rules?? Can't have more than Y -1's?
* if favorable we need to start the discussion of how to implement the
changes. I believe there where two ideas, CVS repos fiddling, and
bulk remove, bulk add.
jas.
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Re: Changing include to include/xercesc - Summary and Vote
Posted by Murray Cumming <Mu...@BetaResearch.de>.
"Jason E. Stewart" wrote:
>
> "Murray Cumming" <Mu...@BetaResearch.de> writes:
>
> > re-posting:
> >
> > Murray Cumming wrote:
> > >
> > > So what's the result of the vote?
> > >
>
> The result is as it has been all along. No one but you is really fired
> up over this issue. If you want a vote summary, go through the archive
> and count it, and write it up here and if it looks good, threaten to
> start committing files unless people respond...
I assumed that the guy who started the vote would count the vote. He
probably has a better idea than me about who's vote counts. Mine
doesn't, and I don't have cvs commit rights.
--
Murray Cumming
www.murrayc.com
murrayc@usa.net
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Re: Changing include to include/xercesc - Summary and Vote
Posted by "Jason E. Stewart" <ja...@openinformatics.com>.
"Murray Cumming" <Mu...@BetaResearch.de> writes:
> re-posting:
>
> Murray Cumming wrote:
> >
> > So what's the result of the vote?
> >
The result is as it has been all along. No one but you is really fired
up over this issue. If you want a vote summary, go through the archive
and count it, and write it up here and if it looks good, threaten to
start committing files unless people respond...
jas.
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