You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to soap-user@ws.apache.org by Brad Cox <bc...@virtualschool.edu> on 2002/08/11 01:20:37 UTC
Puzzled on relation of SOAP to J2EE/JBOSS
Need some help getting oriented. Still scrambling the learning curve.
Could someone explain how SOAP relates to J2EE and/or JBOSS? I know
SOAP's an XML-based RPC, but J2EE and JBOSS claim the same thing. Is
one a superset of the other? If I'm running Apache Soap, when/why
would I need J2EE?
Lost in the hype...
--
Brad Cox, PhD; bcox@virtualschool.edu 703 361 4751
o For industrial age goods there were checks and credit cards.
For everything else there is http://virtualschool.edu/mybank
o Java Web Application Architecture: http://virtualschool.edu/jwaa
o Ruby Interactive Learning Environment http://virtualschool.edu/ile
RE: Puzzled on relation of SOAP to J2EE/JBOSS
Posted by Brad Cox <bc...@virtualschool.edu>.
Heh. By that definition, http://virtualschool.edu/jwaa fully
qualifies as a lightweight deployment environment. Connection
pooling one of the things provided by jwaa's 32kb.
At 11:43 PM -0700 8/11/02, Vadim Draluk wrote:
>While I generally agree with Anne's take on WS
>deployment environment, there's at least one feature
>of app servers that I find almost universally
>mandatory for most applications, and that's JDBC
>connection pooling. So, in my view, an ideal
>Java-based light-weight WS deployment environment
>would comprise a servlet engine and the aforementioned
>pooling capability, usually featured by an app server.
>
>Cheers
>
>Vadim
>
>--- Brad Cox <bc...@virtualschool.edu> wrote:
>> Anne, THANK YOU! EXACTLY what I needed!!
>>
>> >The J2EE app server vendors want you to believe
>> that you need a full
>> >J2EE app server to build Web services, when in fact
>> ...
>>
>> That's exactly my situation. I'm very happy with my
>> servlet-based
>> precompiled approach (see
>> http://virtualschool.edu/jwaa), which does
>> the essentials with only 32kb + Jetty + Velocity
>> (optional) overheads.
>>
>> I found the 23,000kb download size of jboss (similar
>> or more for
>> others) completely disorienting. I am tempted by
>> jboss's ability to
>> autoload changes, but not enough to tolerate cruft
>> that I con't
>> understand in my applications.
>>
>> At 5:08 PM -0400 8/11/02, Anne Thomas Manes wrote:
>> >To expand a little on Graham's response:
>>
>> --
>> Brad Cox, PhD; bcox@virtualschool.edu 703 361 4751
>> o For industrial age goods there were checks and
>> credit cards.
>> For everything else there is
>> http://virtualschool.edu/mybank
>> o Java Web Application Architecture:
>> http://virtualschool.edu/jwaa
>> o Ruby Interactive Learning Environment
>> http://virtualschool.edu/ile
>>
>>
>> --
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>> <ma...@xml.apache.org>
>> For additional commands, e-mail:
>> <ma...@xml.apache.org>
>>
>
>
>--
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@xml.apache.org>
>For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@xml.apache.org>
--
Brad Cox, PhD; bcox@virtualschool.edu 703 361 4751
o For industrial age goods there were checks and credit cards.
For everything else there is http://virtualschool.edu/mybank
o Java Web Application Architecture: http://virtualschool.edu/jwaa
o Ruby Interactive Learning Environment http://virtualschool.edu/ile
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@xml.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@xml.apache.org>
RE: Puzzled on relation of SOAP to J2EE/JBOSS
Posted by Brad Cox <bc...@virtualschool.edu>.
Heh. By that definition, http://virtualschool.edu/jwaa fully
qualifies as a lightweight deployment environment. Connection
pooling one of the things provided by jwaa's 32kb.
At 11:43 PM -0700 8/11/02, Vadim Draluk wrote:
>While I generally agree with Anne's take on WS
>deployment environment, there's at least one feature
>of app servers that I find almost universally
>mandatory for most applications, and that's JDBC
>connection pooling. So, in my view, an ideal
>Java-based light-weight WS deployment environment
>would comprise a servlet engine and the aforementioned
>pooling capability, usually featured by an app server.
>
>Cheers
>
>Vadim
>
>--- Brad Cox <bc...@virtualschool.edu> wrote:
>> Anne, THANK YOU! EXACTLY what I needed!!
>>
>> >The J2EE app server vendors want you to believe
>> that you need a full
>> >J2EE app server to build Web services, when in fact
>> ...
>>
>> That's exactly my situation. I'm very happy with my
>> servlet-based
>> precompiled approach (see
>> http://virtualschool.edu/jwaa), which does
>> the essentials with only 32kb + Jetty + Velocity
>> (optional) overheads.
>>
>> I found the 23,000kb download size of jboss (similar
>> or more for
>> others) completely disorienting. I am tempted by
>> jboss's ability to
>> autoload changes, but not enough to tolerate cruft
>> that I con't
>> understand in my applications.
>>
>> At 5:08 PM -0400 8/11/02, Anne Thomas Manes wrote:
>> >To expand a little on Graham's response:
>>
>> --
>> Brad Cox, PhD; bcox@virtualschool.edu 703 361 4751
>> o For industrial age goods there were checks and
>> credit cards.
>> For everything else there is
>> http://virtualschool.edu/mybank
>> o Java Web Application Architecture:
>> http://virtualschool.edu/jwaa
>> o Ruby Interactive Learning Environment
>> http://virtualschool.edu/ile
>>
>>
>> --
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>> <ma...@xml.apache.org>
>> For additional commands, e-mail:
>> <ma...@xml.apache.org>
>>
>
>
>--
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@xml.apache.org>
>For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@xml.apache.org>
--
Brad Cox, PhD; bcox@virtualschool.edu 703 361 4751
o For industrial age goods there were checks and credit cards.
For everything else there is http://virtualschool.edu/mybank
o Java Web Application Architecture: http://virtualschool.edu/jwaa
o Ruby Interactive Learning Environment http://virtualschool.edu/ile
RE: Puzzled on relation of SOAP to J2EE/JBOSS
Posted by Vadim Draluk <va...@draluk.net>.
While I generally agree with Anne's take on WS
deployment environment, there's at least one feature
of app servers that I find almost universally
mandatory for most applications, and that's JDBC
connection pooling. So, in my view, an ideal
Java-based light-weight WS deployment environment
would comprise a servlet engine and the aforementioned
pooling capability, usually featured by an app server.
Cheers
Vadim
--- Brad Cox <bc...@virtualschool.edu> wrote:
> Anne, THANK YOU! EXACTLY what I needed!!
>
> >The J2EE app server vendors want you to believe
> that you need a full
> >J2EE app server to build Web services, when in fact
> ...
>
> That's exactly my situation. I'm very happy with my
> servlet-based
> precompiled approach (see
> http://virtualschool.edu/jwaa), which does
> the essentials with only 32kb + Jetty + Velocity
> (optional) overheads.
>
> I found the 23,000kb download size of jboss (similar
> or more for
> others) completely disorienting. I am tempted by
> jboss's ability to
> autoload changes, but not enough to tolerate cruft
> that I con't
> understand in my applications.
>
> At 5:08 PM -0400 8/11/02, Anne Thomas Manes wrote:
> >To expand a little on Graham's response:
>
> --
> Brad Cox, PhD; bcox@virtualschool.edu 703 361 4751
> o For industrial age goods there were checks and
> credit cards.
> For everything else there is
> http://virtualschool.edu/mybank
> o Java Web Application Architecture:
> http://virtualschool.edu/jwaa
> o Ruby Interactive Learning Environment
> http://virtualschool.edu/ile
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@xml.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@xml.apache.org>
>
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@xml.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@xml.apache.org>
RE: Puzzled on relation of SOAP to J2EE/JBOSS
Posted by Vadim Draluk <va...@draluk.net>.
While I generally agree with Anne's take on WS
deployment environment, there's at least one feature
of app servers that I find almost universally
mandatory for most applications, and that's JDBC
connection pooling. So, in my view, an ideal
Java-based light-weight WS deployment environment
would comprise a servlet engine and the aforementioned
pooling capability, usually featured by an app server.
Cheers
Vadim
--- Brad Cox <bc...@virtualschool.edu> wrote:
> Anne, THANK YOU! EXACTLY what I needed!!
>
> >The J2EE app server vendors want you to believe
> that you need a full
> >J2EE app server to build Web services, when in fact
> ...
>
> That's exactly my situation. I'm very happy with my
> servlet-based
> precompiled approach (see
> http://virtualschool.edu/jwaa), which does
> the essentials with only 32kb + Jetty + Velocity
> (optional) overheads.
>
> I found the 23,000kb download size of jboss (similar
> or more for
> others) completely disorienting. I am tempted by
> jboss's ability to
> autoload changes, but not enough to tolerate cruft
> that I con't
> understand in my applications.
>
> At 5:08 PM -0400 8/11/02, Anne Thomas Manes wrote:
> >To expand a little on Graham's response:
>
> --
> Brad Cox, PhD; bcox@virtualschool.edu 703 361 4751
> o For industrial age goods there were checks and
> credit cards.
> For everything else there is
> http://virtualschool.edu/mybank
> o Java Web Application Architecture:
> http://virtualschool.edu/jwaa
> o Ruby Interactive Learning Environment
> http://virtualschool.edu/ile
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@xml.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@xml.apache.org>
>
RE: Puzzled on relation of SOAP to J2EE/JBOSS
Posted by Brad Cox <bc...@virtualschool.edu>.
Anne, THANK YOU! EXACTLY what I needed!!
>The J2EE app server vendors want you to believe that you need a full
>J2EE app server to build Web services, when in fact ...
That's exactly my situation. I'm very happy with my servlet-based
precompiled approach (see http://virtualschool.edu/jwaa), which does
the essentials with only 32kb + Jetty + Velocity (optional) overheads.
I found the 23,000kb download size of jboss (similar or more for
others) completely disorienting. I am tempted by jboss's ability to
autoload changes, but not enough to tolerate cruft that I con't
understand in my applications.
At 5:08 PM -0400 8/11/02, Anne Thomas Manes wrote:
>To expand a little on Graham's response:
--
Brad Cox, PhD; bcox@virtualschool.edu 703 361 4751
o For industrial age goods there were checks and credit cards.
For everything else there is http://virtualschool.edu/mybank
o Java Web Application Architecture: http://virtualschool.edu/jwaa
o Ruby Interactive Learning Environment http://virtualschool.edu/ile
RE: Puzzled on relation of SOAP to J2EE/JBOSS
Posted by Brad Cox <bc...@virtualschool.edu>.
Anne, THANK YOU! EXACTLY what I needed!!
>The J2EE app server vendors want you to believe that you need a full
>J2EE app server to build Web services, when in fact ...
That's exactly my situation. I'm very happy with my servlet-based
precompiled approach (see http://virtualschool.edu/jwaa), which does
the essentials with only 32kb + Jetty + Velocity (optional) overheads.
I found the 23,000kb download size of jboss (similar or more for
others) completely disorienting. I am tempted by jboss's ability to
autoload changes, but not enough to tolerate cruft that I con't
understand in my applications.
At 5:08 PM -0400 8/11/02, Anne Thomas Manes wrote:
>To expand a little on Graham's response:
--
Brad Cox, PhD; bcox@virtualschool.edu 703 361 4751
o For industrial age goods there were checks and credit cards.
For everything else there is http://virtualschool.edu/mybank
o Java Web Application Architecture: http://virtualschool.edu/jwaa
o Ruby Interactive Learning Environment http://virtualschool.edu/ile
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@xml.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@xml.apache.org>
RE: Puzzled on relation of SOAP to J2EE/JBOSS
Posted by Anne Thomas Manes <an...@manes.net>.
Brad,
To expand a little on Graham's response:
SOAP is an XML messaging protocol -- in other words, it defines a standard
XML data format to exchange information -- and the information is encoded
using XML. Fundamentally, SOAP is a one-way messaging system, but it can
also be used to perform RPC-style invocations.
I don't believe that Sun (or anyone else) claims that J2EE is an XML-based
RPC. J2EE is a collection of Java APIs that, for the most part, define a set
of standards for Java-based application servers. The J2EE APIs include EJB,
Servlet, JSP, JMS, JTA, JTS, JAF, JavaMail, and a few others.
The Java Community Process (JCP) has just completed the development of a
group of Java APIs (the JAX Pack) that deal with Web Services. These APIs
include SAAJ (SOAP with Attachments API for Java), JAXM (Java API for XML
Messaging), JAX-RPC (Java API for XML-based RPC), JAXR (Java API for XML
Registries), and JWSDL (Java API for WSDL -- not final yet). SAAJ is the
standard low-level Java API for working with SOAP. JAXM is the standard
WSDL-unaware Java API for working with SOAP. JAX-RPC is the standard
WSDL-aware Java API for working with SOAP. (WSDL allows JAX-RPC to
automatically map Java classes to XML data types and back -- providing
support for RPC functionality). JAXR is the standard Java API for working
with UDDI and ebXML registryies. JWSDL is the standard Java API for
processing WSDL files. These APIs will be incorporated into the J2EE
specification in the next release (J2EE 1.4), scheduled to be released in
the 4th quarter of this year. (At that point J2EE will provide native
support for SOAP.)
Most Java application servers implement the J2EE APIs (and in fact they may
be referred to as "J2EE application servers"). JBoss is an open source Java
application server that implements the J2EE APIs. JBoss does not natively
support SOAP -- it supports SOAP through the Apache Axis SOAP implementation
(which implements the JAX-RPC API). (See
http://www.jboss.org/developers/projects/jboss/dotnet.jsp)
Apache SOAP is a Java-based SOAP implementation. It's based on the world's
first SOAP implementation, IBM's SOAP4J. It dates back to June 2000, and
it's a bit old and creaky. It's not WSDL-aware, it's hard to make it
interoperate with other SOAP implementations, and it's hard to extend it. A
little over a year ago the Apache SOAP team started work on a complete SOAP
re-write called Apache Axis. (See http://xml.apache.org/axis/). It's a
modern, WSDL-aware, extensible SOAP implementation, and it implements the
JAX-RPC API. If you're just starting with SOAP, I'd recommend that you work
with Apache Axis rather than Apache SOAP.
There are also a bunch of commercial Java-based SOAP implementations you
might look at (Systinet WASP, The Mind Electric GLUE, Iona XMLBus, Cape
Clear CapeConnect, etc. -- free versions are available for most, and they
tend to offer more powerful tools), but if you're looking for open source,
you should work Axis.
Almost all Java-based SOAP servers are implemented as a servlet, and hence,
they need to run in a servlet engine. The two most popular open source
servlet engines are Jetty (see http://jetty.mortbay.org) and Apache Tomcat
(http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat). In addition, every J2EE application
server includes a servlet engine.
The J2EE app server vendors want you to believe that you need a full J2EE
app server to build Web services, when in fact all you really need is a
servlet engine. If Jetty or Tomcat don't support your performance and
scalability requirements, you can try a low-cost commercial servlet engine,
such as Orion server. You probably don't need to upgrade all the way to a
full-blown J2EE app server unless you require complex transactions (or if
you're already using one).
Best regards,
Anne
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brad Cox [mailto:bcox@virtualschool.edu]
> Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 7:21 PM
> To: soap-user@xml.apache.org
> Cc: dev_wsdl@yahoo.de
> Subject: Puzzled on relation of SOAP to J2EE/JBOSS
>
>
> Need some help getting oriented. Still scrambling the learning curve.
>
> Could someone explain how SOAP relates to J2EE and/or JBOSS? I know
> SOAP's an XML-based RPC, but J2EE and JBOSS claim the same thing. Is
> one a superset of the other? If I'm running Apache Soap, when/why
> would I need J2EE?
>
> Lost in the hype...
> --
> Brad Cox, PhD; bcox@virtualschool.edu 703 361 4751
> o For industrial age goods there were checks and credit cards.
> For everything else there is http://virtualschool.edu/mybank
> o Java Web Application Architecture: http://virtualschool.edu/jwaa
> o Ruby Interactive Learning Environment http://virtualschool.edu/ile
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@xml.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@xml.apache.org>
>
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@xml.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@xml.apache.org>
RE: Puzzled on relation of SOAP to J2EE/JBOSS
Posted by Anne Thomas Manes <an...@manes.net>.
Brad,
To expand a little on Graham's response:
SOAP is an XML messaging protocol -- in other words, it defines a standard
XML data format to exchange information -- and the information is encoded
using XML. Fundamentally, SOAP is a one-way messaging system, but it can
also be used to perform RPC-style invocations.
I don't believe that Sun (or anyone else) claims that J2EE is an XML-based
RPC. J2EE is a collection of Java APIs that, for the most part, define a set
of standards for Java-based application servers. The J2EE APIs include EJB,
Servlet, JSP, JMS, JTA, JTS, JAF, JavaMail, and a few others.
The Java Community Process (JCP) has just completed the development of a
group of Java APIs (the JAX Pack) that deal with Web Services. These APIs
include SAAJ (SOAP with Attachments API for Java), JAXM (Java API for XML
Messaging), JAX-RPC (Java API for XML-based RPC), JAXR (Java API for XML
Registries), and JWSDL (Java API for WSDL -- not final yet). SAAJ is the
standard low-level Java API for working with SOAP. JAXM is the standard
WSDL-unaware Java API for working with SOAP. JAX-RPC is the standard
WSDL-aware Java API for working with SOAP. (WSDL allows JAX-RPC to
automatically map Java classes to XML data types and back -- providing
support for RPC functionality). JAXR is the standard Java API for working
with UDDI and ebXML registryies. JWSDL is the standard Java API for
processing WSDL files. These APIs will be incorporated into the J2EE
specification in the next release (J2EE 1.4), scheduled to be released in
the 4th quarter of this year. (At that point J2EE will provide native
support for SOAP.)
Most Java application servers implement the J2EE APIs (and in fact they may
be referred to as "J2EE application servers"). JBoss is an open source Java
application server that implements the J2EE APIs. JBoss does not natively
support SOAP -- it supports SOAP through the Apache Axis SOAP implementation
(which implements the JAX-RPC API). (See
http://www.jboss.org/developers/projects/jboss/dotnet.jsp)
Apache SOAP is a Java-based SOAP implementation. It's based on the world's
first SOAP implementation, IBM's SOAP4J. It dates back to June 2000, and
it's a bit old and creaky. It's not WSDL-aware, it's hard to make it
interoperate with other SOAP implementations, and it's hard to extend it. A
little over a year ago the Apache SOAP team started work on a complete SOAP
re-write called Apache Axis. (See http://xml.apache.org/axis/). It's a
modern, WSDL-aware, extensible SOAP implementation, and it implements the
JAX-RPC API. If you're just starting with SOAP, I'd recommend that you work
with Apache Axis rather than Apache SOAP.
There are also a bunch of commercial Java-based SOAP implementations you
might look at (Systinet WASP, The Mind Electric GLUE, Iona XMLBus, Cape
Clear CapeConnect, etc. -- free versions are available for most, and they
tend to offer more powerful tools), but if you're looking for open source,
you should work Axis.
Almost all Java-based SOAP servers are implemented as a servlet, and hence,
they need to run in a servlet engine. The two most popular open source
servlet engines are Jetty (see http://jetty.mortbay.org) and Apache Tomcat
(http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat). In addition, every J2EE application
server includes a servlet engine.
The J2EE app server vendors want you to believe that you need a full J2EE
app server to build Web services, when in fact all you really need is a
servlet engine. If Jetty or Tomcat don't support your performance and
scalability requirements, you can try a low-cost commercial servlet engine,
such as Orion server. You probably don't need to upgrade all the way to a
full-blown J2EE app server unless you require complex transactions (or if
you're already using one).
Best regards,
Anne
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brad Cox [mailto:bcox@virtualschool.edu]
> Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 7:21 PM
> To: soap-user@xml.apache.org
> Cc: dev_wsdl@yahoo.de
> Subject: Puzzled on relation of SOAP to J2EE/JBOSS
>
>
> Need some help getting oriented. Still scrambling the learning curve.
>
> Could someone explain how SOAP relates to J2EE and/or JBOSS? I know
> SOAP's an XML-based RPC, but J2EE and JBOSS claim the same thing. Is
> one a superset of the other? If I'm running Apache Soap, when/why
> would I need J2EE?
>
> Lost in the hype...
> --
> Brad Cox, PhD; bcox@virtualschool.edu 703 361 4751
> o For industrial age goods there were checks and credit cards.
> For everything else there is http://virtualschool.edu/mybank
> o Java Web Application Architecture: http://virtualschool.edu/jwaa
> o Ruby Interactive Learning Environment http://virtualschool.edu/ile
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@xml.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@xml.apache.org>
>
RE: Puzzled on relation of SOAP to J2EE/JBOSS
Posted by graham glass <gr...@mindspring.com>.
SOAP is a standard protocol that can be implemented in any language.
J2EE is the umbrella term for a set of Java APIs, including servlets, EJBs,
etc.
JBOSS is an implementation of J2EE.
Apache SOAP is an implementation of SOAP written in Java.
hope this helps,
cheers,
graham
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Cox [mailto:bcox@virtualschool.edu]
Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 6:21 PM
To: soap-user@xml.apache.org
Cc: dev_wsdl@yahoo.de
Subject: Puzzled on relation of SOAP to J2EE/JBOSS
Need some help getting oriented. Still scrambling the learning curve.
Could someone explain how SOAP relates to J2EE and/or JBOSS? I know
SOAP's an XML-based RPC, but J2EE and JBOSS claim the same thing. Is
one a superset of the other? If I'm running Apache Soap, when/why
would I need J2EE?
Lost in the hype...
--
Brad Cox, PhD; bcox@virtualschool.edu 703 361 4751
o For industrial age goods there were checks and credit cards.
For everything else there is http://virtualschool.edu/mybank
o Java Web Application Architecture: http://virtualschool.edu/jwaa
o Ruby Interactive Learning Environment http://virtualschool.edu/ile
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@xml.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@xml.apache.org>
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@xml.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@xml.apache.org>
RE: Puzzled on relation of SOAP to J2EE/JBOSS
Posted by graham glass <gr...@mindspring.com>.
SOAP is a standard protocol that can be implemented in any language.
J2EE is the umbrella term for a set of Java APIs, including servlets, EJBs,
etc.
JBOSS is an implementation of J2EE.
Apache SOAP is an implementation of SOAP written in Java.
hope this helps,
cheers,
graham
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Cox [mailto:bcox@virtualschool.edu]
Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 6:21 PM
To: soap-user@xml.apache.org
Cc: dev_wsdl@yahoo.de
Subject: Puzzled on relation of SOAP to J2EE/JBOSS
Need some help getting oriented. Still scrambling the learning curve.
Could someone explain how SOAP relates to J2EE and/or JBOSS? I know
SOAP's an XML-based RPC, but J2EE and JBOSS claim the same thing. Is
one a superset of the other? If I'm running Apache Soap, when/why
would I need J2EE?
Lost in the hype...
--
Brad Cox, PhD; bcox@virtualschool.edu 703 361 4751
o For industrial age goods there were checks and credit cards.
For everything else there is http://virtualschool.edu/mybank
o Java Web Application Architecture: http://virtualschool.edu/jwaa
o Ruby Interactive Learning Environment http://virtualschool.edu/ile
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@xml.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@xml.apache.org>