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Posted to users@tapestry.apache.org by Patrick Moore <pa...@buildcap.com> on 2007/02/10 07:10:35 UTC
trying tapestry on the phone...
Hi there --
I am trying to access my tapestry 4.1.2 application via a fairly high-end
phone browser. (Samsung a900m). I have some preliminary results and a few
gotcha's posted on my blog at :
http://www.sworddance.com/blog/2007/02/09/phone-usability-design-notes-part-1/
Biggest gotcha so far is @LinkSubmit. LinkSubmit completely breaks in the
phone browser.
-Pat Moore
Re: trying tapestry on the phone...
Posted by Jesse Kuhnert <jk...@gmail.com>.
I guess that's true. Maybe I would argue more strongly for it if I
knew what the app was doing but I don't...I do know that when I was
doing both j2me / mobile content about 6 years ago the virtual device
programs you could use to develop your app against were always pretty
damn close to being the real thing...I can't imagine how many of them
there are now though. Maybe I can ask Cedric. I think he does that
stuff for google mail.
On 2/11/07, Patrick Moore <pa...@buildcap.com> wrote:
> Hi Jesse --
>
> Oh we probably will create a different set of web pages for the phone
> experience for all the reasons you mentioned, and also because the flow
> through the app should probably be very different so as to reduce the
> scrolling on the phone. But a simple proof of concept is what we are gunning
> for now + getting experience with phone browsers.
>
> We talked to a phone java/BREW person. His basic take on the phone situation
> is that the phone browsers have come a long way and that it is reasonable to
> think about offering a phone browser-based solution with just a small team,
> whereas going native required its own team - even if J2ME was used -there
> are so many fundamental differences in the J2ME profiles. When it came to
> the BREW he basically said that it is impossible -- the phone companies
> throw so many roadblocks in the way.
>
> Now this guy was doing games on the phone, which we are definately not
> doing. So it could be that for our relatively simple apps that we will not
> have the same problem. However, you ignore an expert's advise at your own
> peril.....
>
> In a year, we could probably revisit this but in the meantime -- way too
> much on the plate as it is....
>
> -Pat
>
> On 2/11/07, Jesse Kuhnert <jk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I've never had good luck trying to make the same html of a web app
> > work on a mobile phone or normal browser.
> >
> > Everything is so constrained / different that I've always ended up
> > creating a separate set of templates that are specifically targeted
> > for mobile devices. You could probably detect the use of a mobile
> > browser and have a different set of html templates used as a result.
> > (I know Tapestry allows for this ability, just haven't had to do it in
> > Tapestry yet)
> >
> > Your users will appreciate this customized experienced anyways.
> >
> > If this mobile browsing capability is more than a "nice to have"
> > addition to your product (ie a core service that people are likely to
> > use on a daily basis ) you may want to investigate how much sense
> > creating a j2me / native app would make. (none if it's not a regular
> > enough thing that would make people ok with downloading an app)
> >
> > Tapestry is great for a lot of things, but personally speaking if it
> > were a critical part of my product offering that people use for more
> > than casual browsing I wouldn't make it a web app at all...(perhaps
> > re-use the same services / etc , but the "experience" is always going
> > to be 10x better when coming in native form on those kinds of
> > platforms...)
> >
> >
>
--
Jesse Kuhnert
Tapestry/Dojo team member/developer
Open source based consulting work centered around
dojo/tapestry/tacos/hivemind. http://blog.opencomponentry.com
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Re: trying tapestry on the phone...
Posted by Patrick Moore <pa...@buildcap.com>.
Hi Jesse --
Oh we probably will create a different set of web pages for the phone
experience for all the reasons you mentioned, and also because the flow
through the app should probably be very different so as to reduce the
scrolling on the phone. But a simple proof of concept is what we are gunning
for now + getting experience with phone browsers.
We talked to a phone java/BREW person. His basic take on the phone situation
is that the phone browsers have come a long way and that it is reasonable to
think about offering a phone browser-based solution with just a small team,
whereas going native required its own team - even if J2ME was used -there
are so many fundamental differences in the J2ME profiles. When it came to
the BREW he basically said that it is impossible -- the phone companies
throw so many roadblocks in the way.
Now this guy was doing games on the phone, which we are definately not
doing. So it could be that for our relatively simple apps that we will not
have the same problem. However, you ignore an expert's advise at your own
peril.....
In a year, we could probably revisit this but in the meantime -- way too
much on the plate as it is....
-Pat
On 2/11/07, Jesse Kuhnert <jk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I've never had good luck trying to make the same html of a web app
> work on a mobile phone or normal browser.
>
> Everything is so constrained / different that I've always ended up
> creating a separate set of templates that are specifically targeted
> for mobile devices. You could probably detect the use of a mobile
> browser and have a different set of html templates used as a result.
> (I know Tapestry allows for this ability, just haven't had to do it in
> Tapestry yet)
>
> Your users will appreciate this customized experienced anyways.
>
> If this mobile browsing capability is more than a "nice to have"
> addition to your product (ie a core service that people are likely to
> use on a daily basis ) you may want to investigate how much sense
> creating a j2me / native app would make. (none if it's not a regular
> enough thing that would make people ok with downloading an app)
>
> Tapestry is great for a lot of things, but personally speaking if it
> were a critical part of my product offering that people use for more
> than casual browsing I wouldn't make it a web app at all...(perhaps
> re-use the same services / etc , but the "experience" is always going
> to be 10x better when coming in native form on those kinds of
> platforms...)
>
>
Re: trying tapestry on the phone...
Posted by Jesse Kuhnert <jk...@gmail.com>.
I've never had good luck trying to make the same html of a web app
work on a mobile phone or normal browser.
Everything is so constrained / different that I've always ended up
creating a separate set of templates that are specifically targeted
for mobile devices. You could probably detect the use of a mobile
browser and have a different set of html templates used as a result.
(I know Tapestry allows for this ability, just haven't had to do it in
Tapestry yet)
Your users will appreciate this customized experienced anyways.
If this mobile browsing capability is more than a "nice to have"
addition to your product (ie a core service that people are likely to
use on a daily basis ) you may want to investigate how much sense
creating a j2me / native app would make. (none if it's not a regular
enough thing that would make people ok with downloading an app)
Tapestry is great for a lot of things, but personally speaking if it
were a critical part of my product offering that people use for more
than casual browsing I wouldn't make it a web app at all...(perhaps
re-use the same services / etc , but the "experience" is always going
to be 10x better when coming in native form on those kinds of
platforms...)
On 2/10/07, Patrick Moore <pa...@buildcap.com> wrote:
> Thanks ... I will try that out .. unfortunately even if it works for me I
> cannot compell my customers to download and us it. I don't want to try and
> tell the customers how to do so either, as I am trying to sell my prodct not
> opera's.
>
> -Pat
>
> On 2/10/07, Thiago H de Paula Figueiredo <th...@terra.com.br> wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 04:10:35 -0200, Patrick Moore <pa...@buildcap.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi there --
> > >
> > > I am trying to access my tapestry 4.1.2 application via a fairly
> > high-end
> > > phone browser. (Samsung a900m).
> >
> > As far as I know, the best browser for cell phones is Opera Mini
> > (http://www.operamini.com/). It's written in Java, so I suppose your phone
> > will run it. You can even try it as an applet here:
> > http://www.operamini.com/demo/
> >
> > Good luck!
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
> >
> >
>
--
Jesse Kuhnert
Tapestry/Dojo team member/developer
Open source based consulting work centered around
dojo/tapestry/tacos/hivemind. http://blog.opencomponentry.com
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Re: trying tapestry on the phone...
Posted by Patrick Moore <pa...@buildcap.com>.
Thanks ... I will try that out .. unfortunately even if it works for me I
cannot compell my customers to download and us it. I don't want to try and
tell the customers how to do so either, as I am trying to sell my prodct not
opera's.
-Pat
On 2/10/07, Thiago H de Paula Figueiredo <th...@terra.com.br> wrote:
>
> On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 04:10:35 -0200, Patrick Moore <pa...@buildcap.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi there --
> >
> > I am trying to access my tapestry 4.1.2 application via a fairly
> high-end
> > phone browser. (Samsung a900m).
>
> As far as I know, the best browser for cell phones is Opera Mini
> (http://www.operamini.com/). It's written in Java, so I suppose your phone
> will run it. You can even try it as an applet here:
> http://www.operamini.com/demo/
>
> Good luck!
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
Re: trying tapestry on the phone...
Posted by Thiago H de Paula Figueiredo <th...@terra.com.br>.
On Sat, 10 Feb 2007 04:10:35 -0200, Patrick Moore <pa...@buildcap.com>
wrote:
> Hi there --
>
> I am trying to access my tapestry 4.1.2 application via a fairly high-end
> phone browser. (Samsung a900m).
As far as I know, the best browser for cell phones is Opera Mini
(http://www.operamini.com/). It's written in Java, so I suppose your phone
will run it. You can even try it as an applet here:
http://www.operamini.com/demo/
Good luck!
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Re: trying tapestry on the phone...
Posted by andyhot <an...@di.uoa.gr>.
Patrick Moore wrote:
> Hi there --
>
> I am trying to access my tapestry 4.1.2 application via a fairly high-end
> phone browser. (Samsung a900m). I have some preliminary results and a few
> gotcha's posted on my blog at :
> http://www.sworddance.com/blog/2007/02/09/phone-usability-design-notes-part-1/
>
Yep, quite interesting results you got there.
The general fallback plan for such situations is making sure the site
works with javascript disabled:
- Tapestry has good support for this, i.e. ajax components downgrade to
normal ones. BUT there exist some
javascript-only components and they're such by design. The most popular
of those are LinkSubmit and
contrib:Palette... they simply don't work without javascript. The new
autocompleter and data/time pickers also
fail but i have some plans for them :)
But what happens when devices don't have 100% browser-like javascript
support?
- Well, one might like to dynamically instruct Tapestry to not generate
any JS (which is not
currently possible), or (as you did) find and report the problems.
Now, i'm not aware if the javascript protocol (used in a link's href) is
a standard and accepted protocol
but when choosing from
<a href="javascript:doSomething()> or
<a href="#" onclick="doSomething()">
I now prefer (and would like to promote) the simple <a href="#"> and
wiring up the event afterwards.
I don't think this would break anything - perhaps Jesse could comment here.
>
> Biggest gotcha so far is @LinkSubmit. LinkSubmit completely breaks in the
> phone browser.
I also noticed that, see:
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/TAPESTRY-1245
>
> -Pat Moore
>
--
Andreas Andreou - andyhot@apache.org - http://andyhot.di.uoa.gr
Tapestry / Tacos developer
Open Source / J2EE Consulting
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