[DISCUSS][PROPOSAL] "Dark Mode" Color Palette(s) for "Extras>Settings>OpenOffice>Appearance", declutter Menu

[Joana Ottenbacher <xD...@gmx.de>]

Disclaimer: I am new here, just subscribed. Please be kind if this ended
up in the wrong place.

Hi.
I have a mixture of a discussion but also a proposal I would like to
make. I ended up here after doing a fair share of search engine digging,
not finding a good solution for the initial problem. Apparently, about
12 years ago, there started to be demand for what I'm going to discuss,
according to old Open Office forum posts I found in the process.

Problem part A:
As far as I can understand the software, there is not an easy structure
to user-friendly switch color themes in Open Office Writer (I haven't
looked at other programs, but it could be true for them as well).
Yes, there is one solution to switch colors.
You go... What was it? Edit, Settings? No, maybe View... Extras...
Appearance? No, not either. The correct way is
Extras>Settings>OpenOffice>Appearance (as an example, I'm myself still
confused about whether that now applies to all programs under the Open
Office wing, or just Writer??).
You see the first problem?
I as a user/dig my way through the whole interface/, potentially even
missing the settings for program appearance. This is not only very
difficult to find, it leads to *frustration*.
What I've been experiencing through the years of usage is the same
problem over and over again. We do have functions, but the amount of
clicks required to find them, is inefficient and brain-wrecking.
An analogy: Some updates ago, the 3D Software Blender moved their "User
Preferences" window from "Files" to "Edit". Why? It's more logical, it's
convenient and easy to find by one click, containing everything you need
in one single window with a couple of tabs. Blender also lets you choose
your "Theme" on first startup and later in the preferences and add new
themes as you please.

Which leads me to problem part B:
There are people who do have issues with bright light screens. Websites
these days update to "Dark Mode".
I could imagine following scenario: A person who needs accessibility
aids like a customized dark theme, would they even manage to find the
according settings to change the program appearance to their needs?
Would a person who is already puzzled by where to even save their file
or how to print find such an option?
Maybe, if it were easier to find, AND what I think of an improvement: If
there were well-designed pre-installed examplary color themes one could
just switch by clicking a button. There is a list of color schemes (for
me, there is only the OpenOffice light theme in the list!), but again,
until a user finds this option, they might have given up on it already.
Users are not designers. They might struggle with color values, how
light or dark the font color should be displayed and also, they might
worry that changing these colors might make their printer switch colors
as well. (I saw somebody in a forum stating you should revert appearance
before printing, they were likely scared of exactly that!). The concept
of a "Dark Theme" or "Dark Mode" is not so easy for them to understand
when they get a long, long list of colors they are to change themselves.
So what to do to improve? Instead, let the user have a standard one they
could switch by clicking one button a light theme button and a dark
theme button with an icon to determine what's going on.
Voilà. We have an accessible, easy system to make these changes. Just
like clicking a different theme in a PowerPoint presentation. And if
there is none the user likes, they can add a new one and have a new
button or a list for their themes, as well, selecting each color
individually just like you can do right now in version 4.1.7.

Now there's one extra point to the mix. We have users who are using
OpenOffice under Linux. I read that for some reason there is a Dark
Mode, but I don't understand the details at all. I cannot speak for
anybody using that OS, so this here is all from a Windows perspective. I
though do believe that a standardized option to do this throughout each
program *regardless* of OS or the like, would make things so much easier
for everybody.

In my own POV there are enough reasons to overhaul this part of the
system. Possibly, there are menu parts that could be put in one large
window containing everything you might need. The problem when you look
at your own project for too long is that you cannot see what your users
see anymore. You get "designer-blind" as some call that phenomenon. You
forget about those who don't have the structure in mind that you had,
building this. They just look at it and try to figure out how to solve
their problem. I grew up as one of those people, so I know the struggle
firsthand. And according to my research, people tried achieving this
before. We have 2022 now. I believe this is possible.

Still, I would love to hear other voices out there. Any concerns? Are
there technical reasons for this specific situation we find ourselves
in? I might not know. Do enlighten me. Maybe just nobody actually voiced
it before?

Either way, thanks for reading to anybody out there who recieves this. I
hope I did this first E-Mail to the list correctly. I'm apologizing if I
didn't. I'm just human, after all.

Re: [DISCUSS][PROPOSAL] "Dark Mode" Color Palette(s) for "Extras>Settings>OpenOffice>Appearance", declutter Menu

[Linda Hull <ch...@gmail.com>]

Peter,
What coding skill would someone need to be able to be helpful?

Linda

On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 2:07 AM Peter Kovacs <pe...@apache.org> wrote:

> Hi Joana,
>
> In General volunteers who develop Apache OpenOffice are discussing on
> Dev@openoffice.apache.org
>
> The Software is developed by pro bono volunteers. This is open to you if
> you want to drive change.
>
>
> The project has concluded not to change GUI order by argumentation of
> pure Intuition or logic.
>
> The reason is that we did not see the proposed, benefits on community
> level.
>
> It is a generic issue that ease depends heavily on your individual
> training. We are open to solutions that target all users.
>
>
> OpenOffice "Dark Theme" fails on all platforms due to lack of icons and
> other topics. We can use help.
>
>
> All the best
>
> Peter
>
>
>
>
> Am 05.12.22 um 06:57 schrieb Joana Ottenbacher:
> > Disclaimer: I am new here, just subscribed. Please be kind if this ended
> > up in the wrong place.
> >
> > Hi.
> > I have a mixture of a discussion but also a proposal I would like to
> > make. I ended up here after doing a fair share of search engine digging,
> > not finding a good solution for the initial problem. Apparently, about
> > 12 years ago, there started to be demand for what I'm going to discuss,
> > according to old Open Office forum posts I found in the process.
> >
> > Problem part A:
> > As far as I can understand the software, there is not an easy structure
> > to user-friendly switch color themes in Open Office Writer (I haven't
> > looked at other programs, but it could be true for them as well).
> > Yes, there is one solution to switch colors.
> > You go... What was it? Edit, Settings? No, maybe View... Extras...
> > Appearance? No, not either. The correct way is
> > Extras>Settings>OpenOffice>Appearance (as an example, I'm myself still
> > confused about whether that now applies to all programs under the Open
> > Office wing, or just Writer??).
> > You see the first problem?
> > I as a user/dig my way through the whole interface/, potentially even
> > missing the settings for program appearance. This is not only very
> > difficult to find, it leads to *frustration*.
> > What I've been experiencing through the years of usage is the same
> > problem over and over again. We do have functions, but the amount of
> > clicks required to find them, is inefficient and brain-wrecking.
> > An analogy: Some updates ago, the 3D Software Blender moved their "User
> > Preferences" window from "Files" to "Edit". Why? It's more logical, it's
> > convenient and easy to find by one click, containing everything you need
> > in one single window with a couple of tabs. Blender also lets you choose
> > your "Theme" on first startup and later in the preferences and add new
> > themes as you please.
> >
> > Which leads me to problem part B:
> > There are people who do have issues with bright light screens. Websites
> > these days update to "Dark Mode".
> > I could imagine following scenario: A person who needs accessibility
> > aids like a customized dark theme, would they even manage to find the
> > according settings to change the program appearance to their needs?
> > Would a person who is already puzzled by where to even save their file
> > or how to print find such an option?
> > Maybe, if it were easier to find, AND what I think of an improvement: If
> > there were well-designed pre-installed examplary color themes one could
> > just switch by clicking a button. There is a list of color schemes (for
> > me, there is only the OpenOffice light theme in the list!), but again,
> > until a user finds this option, they might have given up on it already.
> > Users are not designers. They might struggle with color values, how
> > light or dark the font color should be displayed and also, they might
> > worry that changing these colors might make their printer switch colors
> > as well. (I saw somebody in a forum stating you should revert appearance
> > before printing, they were likely scared of exactly that!). The concept
> > of a "Dark Theme" or "Dark Mode" is not so easy for them to understand
> > when they get a long, long list of colors they are to change themselves.
> > So what to do to improve? Instead, let the user have a standard one they
> > could switch by clicking one button a light theme button and a dark
> > theme button with an icon to determine what's going on.
> > Voilà. We have an accessible, easy system to make these changes. Just
> > like clicking a different theme in a PowerPoint presentation. And if
> > there is none the user likes, they can add a new one and have a new
> > button or a list for their themes, as well, selecting each color
> > individually just like you can do right now in version 4.1.7.
> >
> > Now there's one extra point to the mix. We have users who are using
> > OpenOffice under Linux. I read that for some reason there is a Dark
> > Mode, but I don't understand the details at all. I cannot speak for
> > anybody using that OS, so this here is all from a Windows perspective. I
> > though do believe that a standardized option to do this throughout each
> > program *regardless* of OS or the like, would make things so much easier
> > for everybody.
> >
> > In my own POV there are enough reasons to overhaul this part of the
> > system. Possibly, there are menu parts that could be put in one large
> > window containing everything you might need. The problem when you look
> > at your own project for too long is that you cannot see what your users
> > see anymore. You get "designer-blind" as some call that phenomenon. You
> > forget about those who don't have the structure in mind that you had,
> > building this. They just look at it and try to figure out how to solve
> > their problem. I grew up as one of those people, so I know the struggle
> > firsthand. And according to my research, people tried achieving this
> > before. We have 2022 now. I believe this is possible.
> >
> > Still, I would love to hear other voices out there. Any concerns? Are
> > there technical reasons for this specific situation we find ourselves
> > in? I might not know. Do enlighten me. Maybe just nobody actually voiced
> > it before?
> >
> > Either way, thanks for reading to anybody out there who recieves this. I
> > hope I did this first E-Mail to the list correctly. I'm apologizing if I
> > didn't. I'm just human, after all.
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
>

Re: [DISCUSS][PROPOSAL] "Dark Mode" Color Palette(s) for "Extras>Settings>OpenOffice>Appearance", declutter Menu

[Peter Kovacs <pe...@apache.org>]

Hi Joana,

In General volunteers who develop Apache OpenOffice are discussing on 
Dev@openoffice.apache.org

The Software is developed by pro bono volunteers. This is open to you if 
you want to drive change.


The project has concluded not to change GUI order by argumentation of 
pure Intuition or logic.

The reason is that we did not see the proposed, benefits on community 
level.

It is a generic issue that ease depends heavily on your individual 
training. We are open to solutions that target all users.


OpenOffice "Dark Theme" fails on all platforms due to lack of icons and 
other topics. We can use help.


All the best

Peter




Am 05.12.22 um 06:57 schrieb Joana Ottenbacher:
> Disclaimer: I am new here, just subscribed. Please be kind if this ended
> up in the wrong place.
>
> Hi.
> I have a mixture of a discussion but also a proposal I would like to
> make. I ended up here after doing a fair share of search engine digging,
> not finding a good solution for the initial problem. Apparently, about
> 12 years ago, there started to be demand for what I'm going to discuss,
> according to old Open Office forum posts I found in the process.
>
> Problem part A:
> As far as I can understand the software, there is not an easy structure
> to user-friendly switch color themes in Open Office Writer (I haven't
> looked at other programs, but it could be true for them as well).
> Yes, there is one solution to switch colors.
> You go... What was it? Edit, Settings? No, maybe View... Extras...
> Appearance? No, not either. The correct way is
> Extras>Settings>OpenOffice>Appearance (as an example, I'm myself still
> confused about whether that now applies to all programs under the Open
> Office wing, or just Writer??).
> You see the first problem?
> I as a user/dig my way through the whole interface/, potentially even
> missing the settings for program appearance. This is not only very
> difficult to find, it leads to *frustration*.
> What I've been experiencing through the years of usage is the same
> problem over and over again. We do have functions, but the amount of
> clicks required to find them, is inefficient and brain-wrecking.
> An analogy: Some updates ago, the 3D Software Blender moved their "User
> Preferences" window from "Files" to "Edit". Why? It's more logical, it's
> convenient and easy to find by one click, containing everything you need
> in one single window with a couple of tabs. Blender also lets you choose
> your "Theme" on first startup and later in the preferences and add new
> themes as you please.
>
> Which leads me to problem part B:
> There are people who do have issues with bright light screens. Websites
> these days update to "Dark Mode".
> I could imagine following scenario: A person who needs accessibility
> aids like a customized dark theme, would they even manage to find the
> according settings to change the program appearance to their needs?
> Would a person who is already puzzled by where to even save their file
> or how to print find such an option?
> Maybe, if it were easier to find, AND what I think of an improvement: If
> there were well-designed pre-installed examplary color themes one could
> just switch by clicking a button. There is a list of color schemes (for
> me, there is only the OpenOffice light theme in the list!), but again,
> until a user finds this option, they might have given up on it already.
> Users are not designers. They might struggle with color values, how
> light or dark the font color should be displayed and also, they might
> worry that changing these colors might make their printer switch colors
> as well. (I saw somebody in a forum stating you should revert appearance
> before printing, they were likely scared of exactly that!). The concept
> of a "Dark Theme" or "Dark Mode" is not so easy for them to understand
> when they get a long, long list of colors they are to change themselves.
> So what to do to improve? Instead, let the user have a standard one they
> could switch by clicking one button a light theme button and a dark
> theme button with an icon to determine what's going on.
> Voilà. We have an accessible, easy system to make these changes. Just
> like clicking a different theme in a PowerPoint presentation. And if
> there is none the user likes, they can add a new one and have a new
> button or a list for their themes, as well, selecting each color
> individually just like you can do right now in version 4.1.7.
>
> Now there's one extra point to the mix. We have users who are using
> OpenOffice under Linux. I read that for some reason there is a Dark
> Mode, but I don't understand the details at all. I cannot speak for
> anybody using that OS, so this here is all from a Windows perspective. I
> though do believe that a standardized option to do this throughout each
> program *regardless* of OS or the like, would make things so much easier
> for everybody.
>
> In my own POV there are enough reasons to overhaul this part of the
> system. Possibly, there are menu parts that could be put in one large
> window containing everything you might need. The problem when you look
> at your own project for too long is that you cannot see what your users
> see anymore. You get "designer-blind" as some call that phenomenon. You
> forget about those who don't have the structure in mind that you had,
> building this. They just look at it and try to figure out how to solve
> their problem. I grew up as one of those people, so I know the struggle
> firsthand. And according to my research, people tried achieving this
> before. We have 2022 now. I believe this is possible.
>
> Still, I would love to hear other voices out there. Any concerns? Are
> there technical reasons for this specific situation we find ourselves
> in? I might not know. Do enlighten me. Maybe just nobody actually voiced
> it before?
>
> Either way, thanks for reading to anybody out there who recieves this. I
> hope I did this first E-Mail to the list correctly. I'm apologizing if I
> didn't. I'm just human, after all.
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@openoffice.apache.org

Re: [DISCUSS][PROPOSAL] "Dark Mode" Color Palette(s) for "Extras>Settings>OpenOffice>Appearance", declutter Menu

[Linda Hull <ch...@gmail.com>]

Joana Ottenbacher,

I got your email, I imagine that everyone on this list got it also.

Your idea sounds great to me.  If I had a choice everything would be dark
mode and there wouldn't be any conflicts or things that don't show.  I will
tell you that at least for FireFox that doesn't seem possible and I end up
turning off my user styles and dark script a lot.  That however, is just a
click or two.

I found a .pdf reader that does colored backgrounds.  They say it is
impossible to change the font color of a .pdf.  Also, some documents
override Okular's colors with white.  Okular is part of KDE but they made
it as a standalone and it works on Windows.

New Edge browser has a 'Dark Mode' but it doesn't color Gmail, back to
black-on-white again.  It would be nice if OO could do documents and
spreadsheets in white on black.

Thanks for the idea!

Linda



On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 12:57 AM Joana Ottenbacher <xD...@gmx.de>
wrote:

> Disclaimer: I am new here, just subscribed. Please be kind if this ended
> up in the wrong place.
>
> Hi.
> I have a mixture of a discussion but also a proposal I would like to
> make. I ended up here after doing a fair share of search engine digging,
> not finding a good solution for the initial problem. Apparently, about
> 12 years ago, there started to be demand for what I'm going to discuss,
> according to old Open Office forum posts I found in the process.
>
> Problem part A:
> As far as I can understand the software, there is not an easy structure
> to user-friendly switch color themes in Open Office Writer (I haven't
> looked at other programs, but it could be true for them as well).
> Yes, there is one solution to switch colors.
> You go... What was it? Edit, Settings? No, maybe View... Extras...
> Appearance? No, not either. The correct way is
> Extras>Settings>OpenOffice>Appearance (as an example, I'm myself still
> confused about whether that now applies to all programs under the Open
> Office wing, or just Writer??).
> You see the first problem?
> I as a user/dig my way through the whole interface/, potentially even
> missing the settings for program appearance. This is not only very
> difficult to find, it leads to *frustration*.
> What I've been experiencing through the years of usage is the same
> problem over and over again. We do have functions, but the amount of
> clicks required to find them, is inefficient and brain-wrecking.
> An analogy: Some updates ago, the 3D Software Blender moved their "User
> Preferences" window from "Files" to "Edit". Why? It's more logical, it's
> convenient and easy to find by one click, containing everything you need
> in one single window with a couple of tabs. Blender also lets you choose
> your "Theme" on first startup and later in the preferences and add new
> themes as you please.
>
> Which leads me to problem part B:
> There are people who do have issues with bright light screens. Websites
> these days update to "Dark Mode".
> I could imagine following scenario: A person who needs accessibility
> aids like a customized dark theme, would they even manage to find the
> according settings to change the program appearance to their needs?
> Would a person who is already puzzled by where to even save their file
> or how to print find such an option?
> Maybe, if it were easier to find, AND what I think of an improvement: If
> there were well-designed pre-installed examplary color themes one could
> just switch by clicking a button. There is a list of color schemes (for
> me, there is only the OpenOffice light theme in the list!), but again,
> until a user finds this option, they might have given up on it already.
> Users are not designers. They might struggle with color values, how
> light or dark the font color should be displayed and also, they might
> worry that changing these colors might make their printer switch colors
> as well. (I saw somebody in a forum stating you should revert appearance
> before printing, they were likely scared of exactly that!). The concept
> of a "Dark Theme" or "Dark Mode" is not so easy for them to understand
> when they get a long, long list of colors they are to change themselves.
> So what to do to improve? Instead, let the user have a standard one they
> could switch by clicking one button a light theme button and a dark
> theme button with an icon to determine what's going on.
> Voilà. We have an accessible, easy system to make these changes. Just
> like clicking a different theme in a PowerPoint presentation. And if
> there is none the user likes, they can add a new one and have a new
> button or a list for their themes, as well, selecting each color
> individually just like you can do right now in version 4.1.7.
>
> Now there's one extra point to the mix. We have users who are using
> OpenOffice under Linux. I read that for some reason there is a Dark
> Mode, but I don't understand the details at all. I cannot speak for
> anybody using that OS, so this here is all from a Windows perspective. I
> though do believe that a standardized option to do this throughout each
> program *regardless* of OS or the like, would make things so much easier
> for everybody.
>
> In my own POV there are enough reasons to overhaul this part of the
> system. Possibly, there are menu parts that could be put in one large
> window containing everything you might need. The problem when you look
> at your own project for too long is that you cannot see what your users
> see anymore. You get "designer-blind" as some call that phenomenon. You
> forget about those who don't have the structure in mind that you had,
> building this. They just look at it and try to figure out how to solve
> their problem. I grew up as one of those people, so I know the struggle
> firsthand. And according to my research, people tried achieving this
> before. We have 2022 now. I believe this is possible.
>
> Still, I would love to hear other voices out there. Any concerns? Are
> there technical reasons for this specific situation we find ourselves
> in? I might not know. Do enlighten me. Maybe just nobody actually voiced
> it before?
>
> Either way, thanks for reading to anybody out there who recieves this. I
> hope I did this first E-Mail to the list correctly. I'm apologizing if I
> didn't. I'm just human, after all.
>

Re: [DISCUSS][PROPOSAL] "Dark Mode" Color Palette(s) for "Extras>Settings>OpenOffice>Appearance", declutter Menu

[David Robley <da...@robley.net.au>]

TL;DR. I think there is a request in there for information about the 
technical aspects of dark mode - such would probably be better posted to 
the development list, as this list is for user support rather than 
technical aspects of the software.

On 05/12/2022 16:27, Joana Ottenbacher wrote:
> Disclaimer: I am new here, just subscribed. Please be kind if this ended
> up in the wrong place.
>
> Hi.
> I have a mixture of a discussion but also a proposal I would like to
> make. I ended up here after doing a fair share of search engine digging,
> not finding a good solution for the initial problem. Apparently, about
> 12 years ago, there started to be demand for what I'm going to discuss,
> according to old Open Office forum posts I found in the process.
>
> Problem part A:
> As far as I can understand the software, there is not an easy structure
> to user-friendly switch color themes in Open Office Writer (I haven't
> looked at other programs, but it could be true for them as well).
> Yes, there is one solution to switch colors.
> You go... What was it? Edit, Settings? No, maybe View... Extras...
> Appearance? No, not either. The correct way is
> Extras>Settings>OpenOffice>Appearance (as an example, I'm myself still
> confused about whether that now applies to all programs under the Open
> Office wing, or just Writer??).
> You see the first problem?
> I as a user/dig my way through the whole interface/, potentially even
> missing the settings for program appearance. This is not only very
> difficult to find, it leads to *frustration*.
> What I've been experiencing through the years of usage is the same
> problem over and over again. We do have functions, but the amount of
> clicks required to find them, is inefficient and brain-wrecking.
> An analogy: Some updates ago, the 3D Software Blender moved their "User
> Preferences" window from "Files" to "Edit". Why? It's more logical, it's
> convenient and easy to find by one click, containing everything you need
> in one single window with a couple of tabs. Blender also lets you choose
> your "Theme" on first startup and later in the preferences and add new
> themes as you please.
>
> Which leads me to problem part B:
> There are people who do have issues with bright light screens. Websites
> these days update to "Dark Mode".
> I could imagine following scenario: A person who needs accessibility
> aids like a customized dark theme, would they even manage to find the
> according settings to change the program appearance to their needs?
> Would a person who is already puzzled by where to even save their file
> or how to print find such an option?
> Maybe, if it were easier to find, AND what I think of an improvement: If
> there were well-designed pre-installed examplary color themes one could
> just switch by clicking a button. There is a list of color schemes (for
> me, there is only the OpenOffice light theme in the list!), but again,
> until a user finds this option, they might have given up on it already.
> Users are not designers. They might struggle with color values, how
> light or dark the font color should be displayed and also, they might
> worry that changing these colors might make their printer switch colors
> as well. (I saw somebody in a forum stating you should revert appearance
> before printing, they were likely scared of exactly that!). The concept
> of a "Dark Theme" or "Dark Mode" is not so easy for them to understand
> when they get a long, long list of colors they are to change themselves.
> So what to do to improve? Instead, let the user have a standard one they
> could switch by clicking one button a light theme button and a dark
> theme button with an icon to determine what's going on.
> Voilà. We have an accessible, easy system to make these changes. Just
> like clicking a different theme in a PowerPoint presentation. And if
> there is none the user likes, they can add a new one and have a new
> button or a list for their themes, as well, selecting each color
> individually just like you can do right now in version 4.1.7.
>
> Now there's one extra point to the mix. We have users who are using
> OpenOffice under Linux. I read that for some reason there is a Dark
> Mode, but I don't understand the details at all. I cannot speak for
> anybody using that OS, so this here is all from a Windows perspective. I
> though do believe that a standardized option to do this throughout each
> program *regardless* of OS or the like, would make things so much easier
> for everybody.
>
> In my own POV there are enough reasons to overhaul this part of the
> system. Possibly, there are menu parts that could be put in one large
> window containing everything you might need. The problem when you look
> at your own project for too long is that you cannot see what your users
> see anymore. You get "designer-blind" as some call that phenomenon. You
> forget about those who don't have the structure in mind that you had,
> building this. They just look at it and try to figure out how to solve
> their problem. I grew up as one of those people, so I know the struggle
> firsthand. And according to my research, people tried achieving this
> before. We have 2022 now. I believe this is possible.
>
> Still, I would love to hear other voices out there. Any concerns? Are
> there technical reasons for this specific situation we find ourselves
> in? I might not know. Do enlighten me. Maybe just nobody actually voiced
> it before?
>
> Either way, thanks for reading to anybody out there who recieves this. I
> hope I did this first E-Mail to the list correctly. I'm apologizing if I
> didn't. I'm just human, after all.
>

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