Pause to Consider

[David Reid <ab...@dial.pipex.com>]

Guys,

This isn't meant as an attack on anyone...

But, can we all take a few moments to consider what's going on with the
autoconf stuff?

I think we all agree that it's a huge change and one we need to be very very
careful about how we do it.  Manoj has done some good work on laying a
foundation but in truth how many people can say they're 100% with him on all
of his intentions/plans?

There are a number of people on this list who have done battle with autoconf
a number of times and have a great deal of experience to bring to the
discussion.  I know people need to code and without the code we wouldn't
have a server, but with such a huge far-reaching change we need to be sure
we're doing it the right way.  Apache 2.0 will be around for a number of
years and the work done now will be with us for at least that long.  Several
people have pointed out that we need to have code that we can maintain over
that period.

So, I guess what I want is for Manoj and Ryan (and all those who've helped)
to write down how the planned autoconf system will work.  This can then be
discussed and everyone who knows about autoconf can give their opinion and
do their usual job on it.  I'd suggest we set a time period for the
discussions, say 72 hours.

I know this seems drastic but all the discussions on this group over the
last couple of days seem to point to it being necessary.  We don't need to
rush into doing something that we'll regret for a number of years...

d.

Re: Pause to Consider

[Manoj Kasichainula <ma...@io.com>]

Greg and Rasmus covered much of what I'd like to say.

On Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 11:20:17AM -0000, David Reid wrote:
> So, I guess what I want is for Manoj and Ryan (and all those who've helped)
> to write down how the planned autoconf system will work.

Search the archives, I think from late last week. I posted a response
to Ralf's request with as much design info as I had. There hasn't been
any significant change since then. Other than that, I think the code
speaks for itself best. Any questions you'd like answered?

I'm okay with not committing the changes for a while, but I don't
think it helps anyone. Committing the files to the repository doesn't
mean we've committed to autoconf. We can always cvs rm the files if
we've decided the experiment was a total failure. And, I'm trying to
make sure the old configuration scripts still work, at least for now,
so we won't have lost any utility there.

My main motivation for committing the files quickly is so that other
people can start changing them. Rasmus has some small nits which are
really fixed most easily through CVS.

The only reason I can think of to not commit the files is that my
methodology is significantly flawed, and we'd have a really ugly
script set hanging around in the repository, being an embarassment to
me forever. :) That's why I'm asking everyone for comments.

If people want a delay (speak up!), I'll wait, but otherwise, assuming
my net access isn't too sporadic while I'm here (Framingham), I'll
commit the changes in the next couple of days.

-- 
Manoj Kasichainula - manojk at io dot com - http://www.io.com/~manojk/
"I mean how can a punk be cyber?" - Bruce Sterling

Re: Pause to Consider

[Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>]

Why go through all the documentation process? That's just throwing a
hurdle at what (IMO) is a non-existent problem.

I say: let Manoj code it, and we just review it as we normally do. If
there is something wrong, then we fix it. If something is right, then way
cool!

Heck. Let's say that Manoj spends a month on this stuff, but it just never
works out. All right. We toss it. Just because Manoj is working on it
doesn't mean that we *have* to use it. Many people want to (I do!), but
let's be real here... Writing up a document for something that is by the
seat-of-the-pants is not going to be useful. I may be putting words in
Manoj's mouth, but based on what he has said, he is very new to the
autoconf toolkit and much of what he is doing is exploration/learning. How
can he document what he is going to do if he doesn't know himself?

Drop the doc issue. Let some coding go forward. See what happens as code
is produced. Comment/review/improve/toss. Standard Operating Procedure.

Cheers,
-g

On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, David Reid wrote:

> Guys,
> 
> This isn't meant as an attack on anyone...
> 
> But, can we all take a few moments to consider what's going on with the
> autoconf stuff?
> 
> I think we all agree that it's a huge change and one we need to be very very
> careful about how we do it.  Manoj has done some good work on laying a
> foundation but in truth how many people can say they're 100% with him on all
> of his intentions/plans?
> 
> There are a number of people on this list who have done battle with autoconf
> a number of times and have a great deal of experience to bring to the
> discussion.  I know people need to code and without the code we wouldn't
> have a server, but with such a huge far-reaching change we need to be sure
> we're doing it the right way.  Apache 2.0 will be around for a number of
> years and the work done now will be with us for at least that long.  Several
> people have pointed out that we need to have code that we can maintain over
> that period.
> 
> So, I guess what I want is for Manoj and Ryan (and all those who've helped)
> to write down how the planned autoconf system will work.  This can then be
> discussed and everyone who knows about autoconf can give their opinion and
> do their usual job on it.  I'd suggest we set a time period for the
> discussions, say 72 hours.
> 
> I know this seems drastic but all the discussions on this group over the
> last couple of days seem to point to it being necessary.  We don't need to
> rush into doing something that we'll regret for a number of years...
> 
> d.
> 

-- 
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/

Re: Pause to Consider

[David Reid <ab...@dial.pipex.com>]

Cool.

----- Original Message -----
From: Rasmus Lerdorf <ra...@apache.org>
To: <ne...@apache.org>
Sent: 24 November 1999 16:09
Subject: Re: Pause to Consider


> > I'm not resisting!  I want autoconf as well.  I just think that people
like
> > yourself who have a lot of experience should comment on what's going on
so
> > Manoj doesn't waste his time on soemthing that we then find doesn't work
etc
> > etc  It seems that no-one else does so we'll see what Manoj comes up
with.
>
> Well, I guess you don't have any way of knowing this, but Manoj sits in
> the office next to mine and believe me, he is getting input from me.  Not
> that I am helping him very much.  He is pretty much figuring it out on his
> own.
>
> He also posted a tarball and a patch yesterday.  If you have comments I
> would assume they would be based on this rather than forcing him to sit
> down and try to explain what he is doing.  Him posting what he has so far
> should be more than enough for the purposes of evaluating whether or not
> he is on the right track.  I think he is.  I am using that patch and
> tarball myself now and apart from a couple of minor things it is working
> very nicely.
>
> -Rasmus
>

Re: Pause to Consider

[Rasmus Lerdorf <ra...@apache.org>]

> I'm not resisting!  I want autoconf as well.  I just think that people like
> yourself who have a lot of experience should comment on what's going on so
> Manoj doesn't waste his time on soemthing that we then find doesn't work etc
> etc  It seems that no-one else does so we'll see what Manoj comes up with.

Well, I guess you don't have any way of knowing this, but Manoj sits in
the office next to mine and believe me, he is getting input from me.  Not
that I am helping him very much.  He is pretty much figuring it out on his
own.

He also posted a tarball and a patch yesterday.  If you have comments I
would assume they would be based on this rather than forcing him to sit
down and try to explain what he is doing.  Him posting what he has so far
should be more than enough for the purposes of evaluating whether or not
he is on the right track.  I think he is.  I am using that patch and
tarball myself now and apart from a couple of minor things it is working
very nicely.

-Rasmus

Re: Pause to Consider

[David Reid <ab...@dial.pipex.com>]

I'm not resisting!  I want autoconf as well.  I just think that people like
yourself who have a lot of experience should comment on what's going on so
Manoj doesn't waste his time on soemthing that we then find doesn't work etc
etc  It seems that no-one else does so we'll see what Manoj comes up with.

d.
----- Original Message -----
From: Rasmus Lerdorf <ra...@apache.org>
To: <ne...@apache.org>
Sent: 24 November 1999 15:35
Subject: Re: Pause to Consider


> > I think we all agree that it's a huge change and one we need to be very
very
> > careful about how we do it.  Manoj has done some good work on laying a
> > foundation but in truth how many people can say they're 100% with him on
all
> > of his intentions/plans?
>
> Why is it a huge change?  Even if we put it in, it isn't mandatory that
> people use it.  Just like it wasn't mandatory to use the top-level
> configure script in 1.3.  You could still run src/Configure manually.
>
> If someone wants to maintain src/Configure and make sure it always works,
> great, go right ahead, but there are plenty of us who would much rather
> see a standard autoconf system put in place so that we all have some hope
> of actually maintaining this thing.  Let Manoj finish his stuff and get it
> in and give it a little while to mature.  If it really doesn't work it
> will be obvious and the decision to turf it will be easy.
>
> This reminds me of all the dicussions about cvs years ago and the
> resistance adopting cvs got.
>
> -Rasmus
>

Re: Pause to Consider

[Ben Laurie <be...@algroup.co.uk>]

Rasmus Lerdorf wrote:
> This reminds me of all the dicussions about cvs years ago and the
> resistance adopting cvs got.

Right - and that was resolved by agreeing to review it after we'd been
using it for 3 months. When the 3 months came, no-one even cared that it
could be reviewed.

Cheers,

Ben.

--
http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html

"My grandfather once told me that there are two kinds of people: those
who work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the
first group; there was less competition there."
     - Indira Gandhi

Re: Pause to Consider

[Rasmus Lerdorf <ra...@apache.org>]

> I think we all agree that it's a huge change and one we need to be very very
> careful about how we do it.  Manoj has done some good work on laying a
> foundation but in truth how many people can say they're 100% with him on all
> of his intentions/plans?

Why is it a huge change?  Even if we put it in, it isn't mandatory that
people use it.  Just like it wasn't mandatory to use the top-level
configure script in 1.3.  You could still run src/Configure manually.

If someone wants to maintain src/Configure and make sure it always works,
great, go right ahead, but there are plenty of us who would much rather
see a standard autoconf system put in place so that we all have some hope
of actually maintaining this thing.  Let Manoj finish his stuff and get it
in and give it a little while to mature.  If it really doesn't work it
will be obvious and the decision to turf it will be easy.  

This reminds me of all the dicussions about cvs years ago and the
resistance adopting cvs got.  

-Rasmus