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Posted to modperl@perl.apache.org by Matt Sergeant <ma...@sergeant.org> on 2000/12/07 16:49:01 UTC
Certification
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, J. J. Horner wrote:
> If I'm way off base, please let me know. I'm spending considerable
> brain power on this idea and if I'm wasting it, I need to know. I
> don't have much spare brain power and I could use it to try to figure
> out my wife . . .
Ask yourself this question: Are you in need of a mod_perl job? If so, I'm
willing to bet that there are employers who would snap you up in a second.
As has been said a few times here, certification is pretty pointless
unless you need some distinguishing factor. With mod_perl, the
distinguishing factor is that you're available!
--
<Matt/>
/|| ** Director and CTO **
//|| ** AxKit.com Ltd ** ** XML Application Serving **
// || ** http://axkit.org ** ** XSLT, XPathScript, XSP **
// \\| // ** Personal Web Site: http://sergeant.org/ **
\\//
//\\
// \\
RE: Certification
Posted by kevin montuori <mo...@arrakisplanet.com>.
>>> John Reid writes:
[ cc list trimmed. ]
jr> This is an interesting thread. Just one point though ... just
jr> who is available?
hey, i'm available. boston and cambridge only, i'm afraid.
jr> Are they any good? Have they any experience? Are they telling
jr> the truth?
well, it's doubtful that certification really resolves these
problems. all certification tells a potential employer is that
someone has had exposure to the technology, not how competent
they would be at providing solutions using it. even if someone
were able to pass an examination, that's not the same thing as
assessing a problem, deciding which technology will best solve
that problem, then implementing that solution in some sort of
timeframe.
i think lie detectors during the interview might be the only
answer, right after the drug test of course.
cheers,
k.
--
kevin montuori
support independent booksellers -- http://www.booksense.com
Re: Certification
Posted by Ajit Deshpande <aj...@skycorp.net>.
On Thu, Dec 07, 2000 at 05:10:58PM -0000, John Reid wrote:
> Certification may be an issue that deserves careful attention, before idiots
> go and try to implement mod_perl solutions, make a complete pig's ear and
> give us all a bad name.
I wouldnt be too worried about that. For better or worse, I feel
that the complexity involved in getting the various Apache::WipeMyAss
(as brian m. put it so eloquently :) configured and working together,
kinda ensures that a mod_perl app, if built, is going to be of reasonable
high quality :)
Ajit
Re: Certification
Posted by Bakki Kudva <ba...@navaco.com>.
The need for certification is a symptom of different problem, which is
that the interview process has become too casual. Interviewers are
uncomfortable asking the tought questions so they resort to asking the
candidate about his hobbies etc. Many years ago a friend of mine who
interviewed for HP told me that he had to take a test and was grilled
intensely by serveral engineers in sequence before getting hired. Some
one even made him solve a partial differential equation on the spot!
(this was an R&D job) He said that he had never sweated that much during
any of his exams in college :)
I think the best system might be for each company to design a 15 minute
test with a dozen questions skewed to their particular needs and see how
the applicant does. It could even be a slightly longer take home test
with follow up during the interview process. Tougher the interview, the
better the guage of how the person will do under pressure. The
certification process is a responsibility for which the companies are
passing the buck on (literally speaking) to the testing firms.
bakki
--
_ _
.-. |M|S| Bakki Kudva
|D|_|a|y| Navaco
|o|m|n|s|<\ 420 Pasadena Drive
|c|e|a|t| \\ Erie, PA 16505-1037
|u|n|g|e| \\ http://www.navaco.com/
| |T|e|m| \> ph: 814-833-2592
"""""""""""""""""" fax:603-947-5747
e-Docs
Re: mod_perl training (was Re: Certification)
Posted by "J. J. Horner" <jh...@2jnetworks.com>.
On Thu, Dec 07, 2000 at 11:06:02PM -0800, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
> I can't figure out where the "start" and "finish" are with mod_perl
> that would make sense for 80 to 400 people. It's not core techology,
> like the llama. We target the llama as how you would want ANY perl
> hacker to spend their first 30 hours. But what 20-30 hours are
> *common* for any mod_perl hacker? And what do you do for pre-reqs?
In my opinion, two essential prereqs are:
1. Strong knowledge of perl.
2. Strong knowledge of Apache webserver configuration and administration.
I say this because I didn't know that so many people though mod_perl was
just Apache::Registry or HTML::Mason, or Axkit, or whatever. I always
though of mod_perl as the PERL API TO APACHE! That, in my opinion, should
be the center of attention in a training program. Teaching about the
API hooks to the different response phases, showing examples of different
interactions with the phases, and working through exercises where a student
learns most of the nooks-n-crannies of the API. One can't learn all of this
unless one knows Apache configuration, administration, and operation well, and
one will be completely lost unless one knows perl.
I don't want to be hired as an HTML::Mason programmer, no matter how cool the
module is. I want to be a mod_perl programmer so I can write custom stuff
for a company that has specific guidelines and needs. If a company can take
something already written and use it, they won't hire a mod_perl programmer.
Am I right?
>
> Training is a tough business. I've been damn lucky, and moderately
> skilled to have had the privilege to train thousands of satisfied
> customers, and sell hundreds of thousands of book. And I'd love to
> see more mod_perl hackers out there. But it's gotta make sense to me
> financially before I commit resources to it. I'm a small business. I
> can't absorb training at a loss for very long.
>
> Hope that helps you see what you need to tell me to get me to do this.
> (nudge nudge)
I'd start off with an intro course available for pay over the web. I'm
not qualified for this, but you are about as qualified as anyone. I'd be
more than happy to provide feedback and give my oh-so-insignificant opinions.
I'd wait to see what the response is on the intro.
I'll be honest with you. I can NOT travel to do training. I can't afford it, nor
can I take the time to do it. I'm not likely to find a company who will send me
somewhere so I can do it. That is why online training is so important and appealing to me.
I'd pay to take an online course (read this, and do exercises, and then get feedback, and
then get a neat little certificate from merlyn).
I just now feel somewhat comfortable putting mod_perl in my signature. I don't use
Apache::Registry very much. But I do write phase specific stuff.
--
J. J. Horner
jjhorner@bellsouth.net
Apache, Perl, mod_perl, Web security, Linux
mod_perl class
Posted by Nathan Torkington <gn...@frii.com>.
J. J. Horner writes:
>> I would be willing to donate my time to write and initially test
>> the exercises to the slides that are taught for the days. If a
>> couple people were to donate their time to writing the slides
>> based on an outline produced by Stas and Randal.
>
> So would I. I'm more than willing to proof read, test, and be a
> guinea pig.
http://prometheus.frii.com/~gnat/mod_perl/ holds the PowerPoint slide
source and the PDF produced from it, of the course I taught at
O'Reilly's University of Perl earlier this year. I'm happy to have
this become the basis for an open source mod_perl class. The "course
book" for this is the Eagle book, "Writing Apache Modules in Perl and
C" published by O'Reilly.
There are bugs in some of the code in the class, I know. I have
revised versions of some of the programs but haven't had time to add
them. A volunteer who already knows mod_perl and has ability to edit
PowerPoint files would be useful here to do this work.
A full class will need not just slides but:
* text for the teacher on what should be said for this slide
(doesn't have to be a transcription, just an idea of how deep to
go into each bullet point)
* labs with sample answers
And finally, please note that I'm not Randal.
Nat
Re: mod_perl training (was Re: Certification)
Posted by "J. J. Horner" <jh...@2jnetworks.com>.
On Sun, Dec 10, 2000 at 06:13:13PM +0800, Gunther Birznieks wrote:
> It sounds to me like you have hit the nail on the head. Perhaps what is
> needed in terms of recouping costs for a mod_perl hands-on development
> course and/or online course is the open source/collaborative approach.
>
This seems to be a good solution to this problem. Instead of
one person sucking up the costs of developing these courses, we could
get a group together to do this. Sounds good to me.
> I would be willing to donate my time to write and initially test the
> exercises to the slides that are taught for the days. If a couple people
> were to donate their time to writing the slides based on an outline
> produced by Stas and Randal.
>
So would I. I'm more than willing to proof read, test, and be a guinea pig.
> We could host it on sourceforge as the modperltraining project. Sourceforge
> could also host the mailing list.
>
> Then regardless of if Randal would then be willing to take the course
> material and beta test it as a class he offers (eg maybe giving the course
> itself would not be profitable for him), we ourselves could be giving this
> course all over the world in beta-test Perl Monger groups.
>
Yet another good idea. We all love open-source, and collaborative efforts, so
let's create a good set of training materials, and then let people teach this
material in their own neighborhoods.
> I know there are still issues such as getting people of the same level of
> expertise in the same room and mod_perl not being a "core" technology, but
> I think mod_perl can be taught assuming similar requirements as the PROM
> class you offer as an initial thought? mod_perl doesn't require all of
> PROM, but probably about a day of it would be integrated to bring people up
> to speed on the basics?
You lost me here. I'm not sure what "core" technology means. I always thought
it would be relatively easy for an experienced teacher to develop a coherent,
reliable course for mod_perl, as long as some requirements are met (able to program
perl and able to configure and administer an apache server). Once those guidelines
are met, discussing the Apache API, going into detail on each of the response phases,
and going through examples and exercises, would flow somewhat unfettered.
1. the Apache server life cycle
2. the request loop
3. Discussion of the API for each phase of the loop with examples
4. Exercises
This would take about 3 (maybe 4) days with someone who meets the pre-reqs. 1 for the intro and terminology
1 long day to discuss the APIs for each phase (maybe two), and 1 day to go over
exercises and have some "lab" work.
This is just a rough estimate, and if someone thinks I've lost my coconuts let me know.
Getting someone up to speed on mod_perl (not Apache::* modules, but the perl API to Apache),
shouldn't take too long. I'd say about 1-1.5 hours for each stop in the request loop. 4-5
hours to teach someone the guts of Apache, including terminology and the real base knowledge
stuff, and 8-10 hours to go over exercises, and develop skeleton handlers.
We are looking at about 30 hours of hard, hard work. They don't call some training sessions
"boot camps" for nothing.
Again, feedback is good. Just make it constructive. Calling me a "moronic putz" isn't helpful,
but saying "Hey, Moronic Putz, you underestimate ...." is good.
> helping with this project, please email me privately. If I get enough
> people willing to contribute (at least 5), I'll set up the sourceforge
> project to start the ball rolling Oh yeah, did I say I didn't mind donating
> my admin time as well to this experiment. :)
Count me in. I'll be willing to guinea pig stuff and give feedback, as well
as do research and help out more experienced teachers.
>
> Later,
> Gunther
>
>
JJ
--
J. J. Horner
jjhorner@bellsouth.net
Apache, Perl, mod_perl, Web security, Linux
Re: mod_perl training (was Re: Certification)
Posted by Gunther Birznieks <gu...@extropia.com>.
At 10:45 AM 12/8/2000 -0500, Richard Dice wrote:
>"Randal L. Schwartz" wrote:
> >
> > But here's the reality of trainings. You need to get 10 to 20 people
> > in a room at the same time that are all starting roughly at the same
> > skill level and also want to end up in the same place. And then you
> > need to do that about 8 to 20 times with the same slide set before you
> > break even, because the cost of producing the materials is pretty
> > high: figure one to three DAYS of research for every HOUR of face time
> > in the classroom.
>
>I've been lucky enough to "inherit" (as a subcontractor) sets of Perl
>training materials put together by a really decent guy named James.
>I shudder to think of the time investment he made in creating that stuff.
>He and I have talked from time to time about revising/updating the
>existing materials, and maybe even creating some new courses, but how to
>find the time...
>
>Mod_perl is a topic I'd really like to work on -- both in terms of
>teaching and also in putting together the training materials to begin
>with. I've yet to figure out the "magic formula" to make this work,
>though.
>
> > I can't figure out where the "start" and "finish" are with mod_perl
> > that would make sense for 80 to 400 people. It's not core techology,
> > like the llama. We target the llama as how you would want ANY perl
> > hacker to spend their first 30 hours. But what 20-30 hours are
> > *common* for any mod_perl hacker? And what do you do for pre-reqs?
>
>These are all really good points.
>
>One other slightly-more-minor consideration when it comes to teaching
>a Perl course is system set-up. If you control the training environment,
>(ie. you have your own classroom and students come out to it) then this
>isn't a problem. But if you teach at the client's location, then it can
>be an issue trying to get their machines configured to the point where you
>can actually have workshops on what you teach. Mod_perl is a biggie in
>terms of the kind of setup you have to do: you need a lot of Perl modules
>installed on the machine, a recent version of Perl, source-code level
>acceses to building Apache, and not just the time needed to do this to a
>classroom full of computers, but also _permission_.
>
>That all said, I'm sure there will be mod_perl courses available somehow,
>someday. 5000(0(0?)?) mod_perl hackers can't be wrong. :-)
>
>Cheers,
>Richard
At first I read Randal's message I didn't know what to say. It's absolutely
true, but it's also very demoralizing to me (to say that it's not
profitable to teach mod_perl in the best possible way -- hands on).
It sounds to me like you have hit the nail on the head. Perhaps what is
needed in terms of recouping costs for a mod_perl hands-on development
course and/or online course is the open source/collaborative approach.
I would be willing to donate my time to write and initially test the
exercises to the slides that are taught for the days. If a couple people
were to donate their time to writing the slides based on an outline
produced by Stas and Randal.
I believe this layered approach would produce some reasonable training
material versus someone working on 1 day of training and another person
working on another day of training. If we did it that way, the days would
not have cohesion. But instead, you get 2 people doing the outline
collaboratively. You then get 2 people fleshing out the outline with some
comments from the first and then you get 1 person writing the exercises
because you want the exercises to build off of each other.
The the slides could be slowly improved in a larger open source community
after that.
I believe Randal's years of Perl training expertise would make him well
qualified to at least contribute an outline of what he believes a course in
mod_perl should entail and in what general order (kind of like a leader in
this aspect if he were willing to take it on).
Stas would also be ideal in both contributing a day of training and the
outline. Although he hasn't done hands-on training (I presume) and I have
never done so (although I've given 1-2 day lectures plenty of times), which
is a different matter.
Once the rough drafts are produced, it's a matter of having an open source
tree where the notes/exercises and slides can be adjusted as time goes on.
I would suggest HTML as the format for slides because it would be the
easiest to manage as a group project in CVS.
We could host it on sourceforge as the modperltraining project. Sourceforge
could also host the mailing list.
Then regardless of if Randal would then be willing to take the course
material and beta test it as a class he offers (eg maybe giving the course
itself would not be profitable for him), we ourselves could be giving this
course all over the world in beta-test Perl Monger groups.
I am pretty sure that if we target 6 months for this project to reach beta,
that by then I could give a mod_perl course using an eLinux training room
in Singapore for the local Asia crowd.
How about it Randal? If we make this an open source project, would this
help make it profitable for you to offer hands on mod_perl training?
I know there are still issues such as getting people of the same level of
expertise in the same room and mod_perl not being a "core" technology, but
I think mod_perl can be taught assuming similar requirements as the PROM
class you offer as an initial thought? mod_perl doesn't require all of
PROM, but probably about a day of it would be integrated to bring people up
to speed on the basics?
I know we don't have quite your experience setting up hands-on training
material, but it would be an interesting experiment if you have the time to
help us.
The schedule I am thinking of is
1 month to develop outline.
2 months to flesh out the slides with rough draft (with a break after 1
month for intermediate comments by outline and exercise authors).
And 1 month to develop exercises to go with the slides (although input on
the slides would be given by the exercise writer too). Although mod_perl
2.0 might be out by then :), I think the basic principles of the slides
would still be there.
I also think that people who are experienced here could take the slides and
use them when they start companies or departments and hire new people who
know Perl but not Mod_perl. Right now, they have to train the junior folks
off the cuff. This would give them a guideline and training material to
help bring their own guys up to speed.
Also with eventual open source written slide notes, it could also be a
self-study course.
Anyway, even if Randal does not have the time. Anyone who is interested in
helping with this project, please email me privately. If I get enough
people willing to contribute (at least 5), I'll set up the sourceforge
project to start the ball rolling Oh yeah, did I say I didn't mind donating
my admin time as well to this experiment. :)
Later,
Gunther
Re: mod_perl training (was Re: Certification)
Posted by Richard Dice <rd...@pobox.com>.
"Randal L. Schwartz" wrote:
>
> But here's the reality of trainings. You need to get 10 to 20 people
> in a room at the same time that are all starting roughly at the same
> skill level and also want to end up in the same place. And then you
> need to do that about 8 to 20 times with the same slide set before you
> break even, because the cost of producing the materials is pretty
> high: figure one to three DAYS of research for every HOUR of face time
> in the classroom.
I've been lucky enough to "inherit" (as a subcontractor) sets of Perl
training materials put together by a really decent guy named James.
I shudder to think of the time investment he made in creating that stuff.
He and I have talked from time to time about revising/updating the
existing materials, and maybe even creating some new courses, but how to
find the time...
Mod_perl is a topic I'd really like to work on -- both in terms of
teaching and also in putting together the training materials to begin
with. I've yet to figure out the "magic formula" to make this work,
though.
> I can't figure out where the "start" and "finish" are with mod_perl
> that would make sense for 80 to 400 people. It's not core techology,
> like the llama. We target the llama as how you would want ANY perl
> hacker to spend their first 30 hours. But what 20-30 hours are
> *common* for any mod_perl hacker? And what do you do for pre-reqs?
These are all really good points.
One other slightly-more-minor consideration when it comes to teaching
a Perl course is system set-up. If you control the training environment,
(ie. you have your own classroom and students come out to it) then this
isn't a problem. But if you teach at the client's location, then it can
be an issue trying to get their machines configured to the point where you
can actually have workshops on what you teach. Mod_perl is a biggie in
terms of the kind of setup you have to do: you need a lot of Perl modules
installed on the machine, a recent version of Perl, source-code level
acceses to building Apache, and not just the time needed to do this to a
classroom full of computers, but also _permission_.
That all said, I'm sure there will be mod_perl courses available somehow,
someday. 5000(0(0?)?) mod_perl hackers can't be wrong. :-)
Cheers,
Richard
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Dice * Personal 519 635 9568 * Fax 519 635 9569
ShadNet Creator * http://shadnet.shad.ca/ * rdice@shadnet.shad.ca
Occasional Writer, HotWired * http://www.hotwired.com/webmonkey/
"squeeze the world 'til it's small enough to join us heel to toe"
- jesus jones
mod_perl training (was Re: Certification)
Posted by "Randal L. Schwartz" <me...@stonehenge.com>.
>>>>> "Gunther" == Gunther Birznieks <gu...@extropia.com> writes:
Gunther> A lecture format is great for spreading the word at the
Gunther> conferences, but hands-on training would be even better. Or
Gunther> perhaps there isn't a demand for mod_perl training in which
Gunther> case I guess that's a business decision.
Hmm. I guess I can speak to that. :)
I have seen that hands-on gets the stuff to stick longer, and also has
people ask more intelligent questions later in the course. So I agree
with you there... I think people would get more out of a hands-on
course than a lecture seminar.
But here's the reality of trainings. You need to get 10 to 20 people
in a room at the same time that are all starting roughly at the same
skill level and also want to end up in the same place. And then you
need to do that about 8 to 20 times with the same slide set before you
break even, because the cost of producing the materials is pretty
high: figure one to three DAYS of research for every HOUR of face time
in the classroom.
I can't figure out where the "start" and "finish" are with mod_perl
that would make sense for 80 to 400 people. It's not core techology,
like the llama. We target the llama as how you would want ANY perl
hacker to spend their first 30 hours. But what 20-30 hours are
*common* for any mod_perl hacker? And what do you do for pre-reqs?
Training is a tough business. I've been damn lucky, and moderately
skilled to have had the privilege to train thousands of satisfied
customers, and sell hundreds of thousands of book. And I'd love to
see more mod_perl hackers out there. But it's gotta make sense to me
financially before I commit resources to it. I'm a small business. I
can't absorb training at a loss for very long.
Hope that helps you see what you need to tell me to get me to do this.
(nudge nudge)
--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<me...@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
Re: Certification
Posted by Gunther Birznieks <gu...@extropia.com>.
At the very least even if there is no certification, perhaps just a
training course on mod_perl from Merlyn/Stonehenge would act in lieu of such.
If I knew someone had trained for a week with Randal's company in either OO
Perl technology (PROM) or mod_perl (a course that doesn't seem to exist on
StoneHenge yet), I would definitely take more than a 2nd glance at a stack
of CVs that all claim to know Perl equally well.
It's not about blindly hiring someone with certs or a training course, but
about sifting through a ton of CVs where everyone and sometimes their
mothers claim they know Java and/or Perl and shortlisting them among the
ones to call.
Of course, I don't have that problem in Singapore where few people claim to
know Perl -- but in UK and USA, I always had people writing Perl this and
Perl that on their CVs.
Just the fact that StoneHenge could act as a spreader of mod_perl
technology through its training would perhaps add some legitimacy. Where do
people go for mod_perl training now? They have to wait for ApacheCon and
PerlCon. And even then (no offense to Stas great presentations) it's a day
or two course in a lecture rather than hands-on format.
A lecture format is great for spreading the word at the conferences, but
hands-on training would be even better. Or perhaps there isn't a demand for
mod_perl training in which case I guess that's a business decision.
I think I was wrong the cert thing... perhaps it is premature. I don't
think I am wrong that a cert would be a good idea eventually -- and
hopefully it will be a debate we can have next year when its hopefully
applicable. And for now it is probably correct that if a person knows
mod_perl they will be snapped up in the job market anyway.
At 12:59 PM 12/7/00 -0600, Jimi Thompson wrote:
>When MCSE's were just starting to be issued, no one thought that they were
>important either. However, the PHB's who do the hiring said "Oooooo, you
>have a
>sheet of paper from M$ that says your ok. You're hired!"
>
>My point is that if you are trying to appeal to the businesses, please look at
>what has worked in the past for others and see if it can work for Perl as
>well.
>Perl needs to move out of the hacker market and in to the mainstream if it
>is to
>thrive.
>
>In order to move into the mainstream and take its rightful place with
>Java, it's
>go to have a perception change. I think that certification would certainly
>help. Where can I go to get mine?
>
>
>
>John Reid wrote:
>
> > > > If I'm way off base, please let me know. I'm spending considerable
> > > > brain power on this idea and if I'm wasting it, I need to know. I
> > > > don't have much spare brain power and I could use it to try to figure
> > > > out my wife . . .
> > >
> > > Ask yourself this question: Are you in need of a mod_perl job? If so, I'm
> > > willing to bet that there are employers who would snap you up in a
> second.
> > >
> > > As has been said a few times here, certification is pretty pointless
> > > unless you need some distinguishing factor. With mod_perl, the
> > > distinguishing factor is that you're available!
> >
> > This is an interesting thread. Just one point though ... just who is
> > available? Are they any good? Have they any experience? Are they
> telling the
> > truth?
> >
> > Certification may be an issue that deserves careful attention, before
> idiots
> > go and try to implement mod_perl solutions, make a complete pig's ear and
> > give us all a bad name.
> >
> > John Reid
> > OpenConnect (Ireland) Ltd
> > -------------------------
> > You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear ...
> > ... but it does make a rather attractive novelty luggage tag.
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.215 / Virus Database: 101 - Release Date: 16/11/2000
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: modperl-unsubscribe@apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: modperl-help@apache.org
>
>--
>Jimi Thompson
>Web Master
>L3 communications
>
>"It's the same thing we do every night, Pinky."
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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__________________________________________________
Gunther Birznieks (gunther.birznieks@extropia.com)
eXtropia - The Web Technology Company
http://www.extropia.com/
Re: Certification
Posted by Jimi Thompson <jt...@link.com>.
When MCSE's were just starting to be issued, no one thought that they were
important either. However, the PHB's who do the hiring said "Oooooo, you have a
sheet of paper from M$ that says your ok. You're hired!"
My point is that if you are trying to appeal to the businesses, please look at
what has worked in the past for others and see if it can work for Perl as well.
Perl needs to move out of the hacker market and in to the mainstream if it is to
thrive.
In order to move into the mainstream and take its rightful place with Java, it's
go to have a perception change. I think that certification would certainly
help. Where can I go to get mine?
John Reid wrote:
> > > If I'm way off base, please let me know. I'm spending considerable
> > > brain power on this idea and if I'm wasting it, I need to know. I
> > > don't have much spare brain power and I could use it to try to figure
> > > out my wife . . .
> >
> > Ask yourself this question: Are you in need of a mod_perl job? If so, I'm
> > willing to bet that there are employers who would snap you up in a second.
> >
> > As has been said a few times here, certification is pretty pointless
> > unless you need some distinguishing factor. With mod_perl, the
> > distinguishing factor is that you're available!
>
> This is an interesting thread. Just one point though ... just who is
> available? Are they any good? Have they any experience? Are they telling the
> truth?
>
> Certification may be an issue that deserves careful attention, before idiots
> go and try to implement mod_perl solutions, make a complete pig's ear and
> give us all a bad name.
>
> John Reid
> OpenConnect (Ireland) Ltd
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> ... but it does make a rather attractive novelty luggage tag.
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RE: Certification
Posted by John Reid <jr...@openconnect.co.uk>.
> > If I'm way off base, please let me know. I'm spending considerable
> > brain power on this idea and if I'm wasting it, I need to know. I
> > don't have much spare brain power and I could use it to try to figure
> > out my wife . . .
>
> Ask yourself this question: Are you in need of a mod_perl job? If so, I'm
> willing to bet that there are employers who would snap you up in a second.
>
> As has been said a few times here, certification is pretty pointless
> unless you need some distinguishing factor. With mod_perl, the
> distinguishing factor is that you're available!
This is an interesting thread. Just one point though ... just who is
available? Are they any good? Have they any experience? Are they telling the
truth?
Certification may be an issue that deserves careful attention, before idiots
go and try to implement mod_perl solutions, make a complete pig's ear and
give us all a bad name.
John Reid
OpenConnect (Ireland) Ltd
-------------------------
You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear ...
... but it does make a rather attractive novelty luggage tag.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.215 / Virus Database: 101 - Release Date: 16/11/2000
Re: Certification
Posted by Jay Jacobs <ja...@lach.net>.
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Matt Sergeant wrote:
> On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, J. J. Horner wrote:
>
> > If I'm way off base, please let me know. I'm spending considerable
> > brain power on this idea and if I'm wasting it, I need to know. I
> > don't have much spare brain power and I could use it to try to figure
> > out my wife . . .
>
> Ask yourself this question: Are you in need of a mod_perl job? If so, I'm
> willing to bet that there are employers who would snap you up in a second.
<snip>
On the flip side, if you're an employer looking for a good mod_perl
programmer, they're hard to find, and if you do find them, they're
quirky. ;)
I liked the idea of incorporating the local perl mongers groups into the
teaching/training/advocacy process. I proposed it to my local group as a
possibility. Perhaps it would help to get some standards though (similiar
to a certification process) that the groups could follow. Perhaps areas
to cover, standard tests, etc. Things that would lead a person to getting
really certified when/if such a thing exists.
Jay Jacobs
Re: Certification
Posted by Tom Brown <tb...@baremetal.com>.
On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, Matt Sergeant wrote:
> On Thu, 7 Dec 2000, J. J. Horner wrote:
>
> > If I'm way off base, please let me know. I'm spending considerable
> > brain power on this idea and if I'm wasting it, I need to know. I
> > don't have much spare brain power and I could use it to try to figure
> > out my wife . . .
>
> Ask yourself this question: Are you in need of a mod_perl job? If so, I'm
> willing to bet that there are employers who would snap you up in a second.
>
> As has been said a few times here, certification is pretty pointless
> unless you need some distinguishing factor. With mod_perl, the
> distinguishing factor is that you're available!
(my apologies if this has already been said, I'm still catching up...)
yes and no.
having a certification program implies a lot more than just that there
will be something employers can look at.
I would expect that the real value comes from the fact that a lot of hard
work has gone into a building a training program, which will by it's
nature create more mod_perl programmers ... how many is subject to
question, but if you can point prospective candidates at the list of
hungry employers, then it should be fairly successfull...
It's my belief that part of the reason microsoft has been so successfull
is that they have made it so easy for schools/institutes to teach their
material ... thus more students studying the M$ way, thus more folks
"selling" microsoft solutions...
... anyone who wants to teach an NT course just asks microsoft for the
curriculum... but wanna teach a linux course and your options are (or
were, things may have changed) less clear, and you're more likely to have
to build it yourself... given the quality and motivation levels of most
schools/institutes/instructors the choice is clear... especially when
they get to ride on the promotion bandwagon that microsoft has prepared...
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