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Posted to users@tapestry.apache.org by Raul Raja Martinez <do...@estudiowebs.com> on 2006/02/17 04:35:20 UTC
Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in Javaposse
podcast
Hi, just recently listen Gavin King making a comment about JSF in the
javaposse podcasts. He points out tapestry ability to separate html
templates from component logic and definitions, but he also justifies
that this shouldn't be an issue in jsf because all the design should be
done in css.
I personally disagree, since there are little things easier to do in the
.html, but I thought it might be interesting for people to listen, the
javaposse podcasts are very cool and they interview important people in
the java community.
http://javaposse.com/index.php?post_category=podcasts
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RE: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in Javaposse podcast
Posted by Edward Mills <ed...@interpro.com.au>.
Would anyone be interested working on tapestry in the global markets?
I am looking for a team to enter and blow them away and reap the financial
benefits of being the best.
Edward
-----Original Message-----
From: Jesse Kuhnert [mailto:jkuhnert@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, 17 February 2006 4:49 PM
To: Tapestry users
Subject: Re: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in
Javaposse podcast
Hmmm...I wish I could say more, but prefering to make mysterious and
unsubstantiated statements, I would say that my own personal opinion is that
Gavin might not be quite as down on tapestrys component model as the
interview may make it seem..
Either way, I love hibernate and feel it's probably one of the largest
reasons why I'm liking ejb 3.0(somewhat, mostly still just like hibernate),
whereas have been known from time to time to almost despise ejb 2.0.
That being said, I still think tapestry has obviously got the right picture.
We've even been discovering in dojo that having embedded markup (sort of
like what jsf does in some ways) in widgets sometimes makes them cumbersome
and hard to extend...It's already being fixed where appropriate of
course...CSS is just one tiny part of the equation.
But, that's just all of the old web tech leader type people thinking (boring
engineer people coming from yahoo/ibm/google/aol/etc...), I'm sure the JSF
group knows what's best for web development ;)
jesse
On 2/17/06, Chris Hughes <ca...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I agree with Gavin's sentiment that, in general, you want to do your
> presentation work in CSS. However, in order for that to be effective, you
> really need to have good mark-up to style.
>
> The edge that I think Tapestry has here is that it makes it easy for me to
> produce the mark-up, rather than relying on the
> knowledge/experience/tastes
> of the JSF component developer. In order for me to have control over the
> mark-up in JSF, I have to write my own components - which seems
> unnecessarily complex for what should be a reasonably simple task.
>
> Chris
>
> PS - I'd also recommend the Javaposse podcasts, as they cover some good
> material. For those that have not listened, it's probably worth stating
> up-front that the presenters all met each other through developing/using
> Sun's Creator product, so there does tend to be some leaning towards
> JSF...
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Raul Raja Martinez
> Sent: Friday, 17 February 2006 2:35 PM
> To: tapestry-user@jakarta.apache.org
> Subject: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in Javaposse
> podcast
>
> Hi, just recently listen Gavin King making a comment about JSF in the
> javaposse podcasts. He points out tapestry ability to separate html
> templates from component logic and definitions, but he also justifies that
> this shouldn't be an issue in jsf because all the design should be done in
> css.
>
> I personally disagree, since there are little things easier to do in the
> .html, but I thought it might be interesting for people to listen, the
> javaposse podcasts are very cool and they interview important people in
> the
> java community.
>
> http://javaposse.com/index.php?post_category=podcasts
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
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Re: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in Javaposse podcast
Posted by Jesse Kuhnert <jk...@gmail.com>.
Hmmm...I wish I could say more, but prefering to make mysterious and
unsubstantiated statements, I would say that my own personal opinion is that
Gavin might not be quite as down on tapestrys component model as the
interview may make it seem..
Either way, I love hibernate and feel it's probably one of the largest
reasons why I'm liking ejb 3.0(somewhat, mostly still just like hibernate),
whereas have been known from time to time to almost despise ejb 2.0.
That being said, I still think tapestry has obviously got the right picture.
We've even been discovering in dojo that having embedded markup (sort of
like what jsf does in some ways) in widgets sometimes makes them cumbersome
and hard to extend...It's already being fixed where appropriate of
course...CSS is just one tiny part of the equation.
But, that's just all of the old web tech leader type people thinking (boring
engineer people coming from yahoo/ibm/google/aol/etc...), I'm sure the JSF
group knows what's best for web development ;)
jesse
On 2/17/06, Chris Hughes <ca...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I agree with Gavin's sentiment that, in general, you want to do your
> presentation work in CSS. However, in order for that to be effective, you
> really need to have good mark-up to style.
>
> The edge that I think Tapestry has here is that it makes it easy for me to
> produce the mark-up, rather than relying on the
> knowledge/experience/tastes
> of the JSF component developer. In order for me to have control over the
> mark-up in JSF, I have to write my own components - which seems
> unnecessarily complex for what should be a reasonably simple task.
>
> Chris
>
> PS - I'd also recommend the Javaposse podcasts, as they cover some good
> material. For those that have not listened, it's probably worth stating
> up-front that the presenters all met each other through developing/using
> Sun's Creator product, so there does tend to be some leaning towards
> JSF...
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Raul Raja Martinez
> Sent: Friday, 17 February 2006 2:35 PM
> To: tapestry-user@jakarta.apache.org
> Subject: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in Javaposse
> podcast
>
> Hi, just recently listen Gavin King making a comment about JSF in the
> javaposse podcasts. He points out tapestry ability to separate html
> templates from component logic and definitions, but he also justifies that
> this shouldn't be an issue in jsf because all the design should be done in
> css.
>
> I personally disagree, since there are little things easier to do in the
> .html, but I thought it might be interesting for people to listen, the
> javaposse podcasts are very cool and they interview important people in
> the
> java community.
>
> http://javaposse.com/index.php?post_category=podcasts
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
Re: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in Javaposse
podcast
Posted by Raul Raja Martinez <do...@estudiowebs.com>.
So If I where using JSF, I would have to:
Ask my designer to write a nice layout provinding a css that controls
everything and html that plays nice with the css and then I would have
to turn that html into JSF tags while I pray for the layout to not get
screwed.
Or I can teach my designer how to use a tool that builds JSF layouts
such as MyEclipseIDE, and tell him to forget about Dreamweaver or the
way he use to design because the new Sun Spec for JSF and Gavin King
thinks that either designers don't exists or they know enough about JSF
or all programmers are designers or everybody has a browser that fully
supports CSS.
I don't know what these people are thinking.
Mis 2 pesetas.
Geoff Longman wrote:
> I dunno, the project I'm working has no tables and all layout is done
> using CSS. They key was to have a an HTML/CSS guru design the
> templates from the beginning. No Java developer EVER modifies the css
> and rarely needs to modify the html beyond the usual (jwcid).
>
> It's been a joy to work this way.
>
> Geoff
>
> On 2/17/06, Paul Cantrell <ca...@pobox.com> wrote:
>> In theory, establish a clean content / presentation split between
>> HTML and CSS is a pleasing idea.
>>
>> In practice, it's a bunch of starry-eyed crack-smoking idealism.
>>
>> My $0.02.
>>
>> P
>>
>>
>> On Feb 16, 2006, at 11:16 PM, Chris Hughes wrote:
>>
>>> I agree with Gavin's sentiment that, in general, you want to do your
>>> presentation work in CSS. However, in order for that to be
>>> effective, you
>>> really need to have good mark-up to style.
>>>
>>> The edge that I think Tapestry has here is that it makes it easy
>>> for me to
>>> produce the mark-up, rather than relying on the knowledge/
>>> experience/tastes
>>> of the JSF component developer. In order for me to have control
>>> over the
>>> mark-up in JSF, I have to write my own components - which seems
>>> unnecessarily complex for what should be a reasonably simple task.
>>>
>>> Chris
>>>
>>> PS - I'd also recommend the Javaposse podcasts, as they cover some
>>> good
>>> material. For those that have not listened, it's probably worth
>>> stating
>>> up-front that the presenters all met each other through developing/
>>> using
>>> Sun's Creator product, so there does tend to be some leaning
>>> towards JSF...
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Raul Raja Martinez
>>> Sent: Friday, 17 February 2006 2:35 PM
>>> To: tapestry-user@jakarta.apache.org
>>> Subject: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in
>>> Javaposse
>>> podcast
>>>
>>> Hi, just recently listen Gavin King making a comment about JSF in the
>>> javaposse podcasts. He points out tapestry ability to separate html
>>> templates from component logic and definitions, but he also
>>> justifies that
>>> this shouldn't be an issue in jsf because all the design should be
>>> done in
>>> css.
>>>
>>> I personally disagree, since there are little things easier to do
>>> in the
>>> .html, but I thought it might be interesting for people to listen, the
>>> javaposse podcasts are very cool and they interview important
>>> people in the
>>> java community.
>>>
>>> http://javaposse.com/index.php?post_category=podcasts
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Piano music podcast: http://inthehands.com
>> Other interesting stuff: http://innig.net
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> The Spindle guy. http://spindle.sf.net
> Get help with Spindle:
> http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/spindle-user
> Blog: http://jroller.com/page/glongman
> Feature Updates: http://spindle.sf.net/updates
>
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Re: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in Javaposse podcast
Posted by Geoff Longman <gl...@gmail.com>.
I dunno, the project I'm working has no tables and all layout is done
using CSS. They key was to have a an HTML/CSS guru design the
templates from the beginning. No Java developer EVER modifies the css
and rarely needs to modify the html beyond the usual (jwcid).
It's been a joy to work this way.
Geoff
On 2/17/06, Paul Cantrell <ca...@pobox.com> wrote:
> In theory, establish a clean content / presentation split between
> HTML and CSS is a pleasing idea.
>
> In practice, it's a bunch of starry-eyed crack-smoking idealism.
>
> My $0.02.
>
> P
>
>
> On Feb 16, 2006, at 11:16 PM, Chris Hughes wrote:
>
> > I agree with Gavin's sentiment that, in general, you want to do your
> > presentation work in CSS. However, in order for that to be
> > effective, you
> > really need to have good mark-up to style.
> >
> > The edge that I think Tapestry has here is that it makes it easy
> > for me to
> > produce the mark-up, rather than relying on the knowledge/
> > experience/tastes
> > of the JSF component developer. In order for me to have control
> > over the
> > mark-up in JSF, I have to write my own components - which seems
> > unnecessarily complex for what should be a reasonably simple task.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > PS - I'd also recommend the Javaposse podcasts, as they cover some
> > good
> > material. For those that have not listened, it's probably worth
> > stating
> > up-front that the presenters all met each other through developing/
> > using
> > Sun's Creator product, so there does tend to be some leaning
> > towards JSF...
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Raul Raja Martinez
> > Sent: Friday, 17 February 2006 2:35 PM
> > To: tapestry-user@jakarta.apache.org
> > Subject: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in
> > Javaposse
> > podcast
> >
> > Hi, just recently listen Gavin King making a comment about JSF in the
> > javaposse podcasts. He points out tapestry ability to separate html
> > templates from component logic and definitions, but he also
> > justifies that
> > this shouldn't be an issue in jsf because all the design should be
> > done in
> > css.
> >
> > I personally disagree, since there are little things easier to do
> > in the
> > .html, but I thought it might be interesting for people to listen, the
> > javaposse podcasts are very cool and they interview important
> > people in the
> > java community.
> >
> > http://javaposse.com/index.php?post_category=podcasts
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Piano music podcast: http://inthehands.com
> Other interesting stuff: http://innig.net
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
--
The Spindle guy. http://spindle.sf.net
Get help with Spindle:
http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/spindle-user
Blog: http://jroller.com/page/glongman
Feature Updates: http://spindle.sf.net/updates
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RE: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in Javaposse podcast
Posted by Mark Stang <ms...@pingidentity.com>.
Java developers, unless they are EXPERTS in HTML and CSS (and very few are) waste an enormous amount of time trying to line stuff up and make it pretty. My advice and it works for us, DON'T LET THEM!!! We prototype and let the GUI guy do his thang or he creates the sample screen and we convert it to Tapestry.
During the LAST week before we shipped the product the gui guy and CEO sat down and re-did the interface, NO developer involvement (none, zip, nada). And then our customer support person came over and said how much it had improved the usability of the product. It was bitter-sweet. Great to NOT have to sit down and make mind-numbing HTML changes, but it was bitter because it improved the site and the developers couldn't take credit (sigh).
It is NOT cost effective to have a Java Developer doing HTML and CSS. If it is, then your developers are getting paid too little ;-).
regards,
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Longman [mailto:glongman@gmail.com]
Sent: Fri 2/17/2006 9:47 AM
To: Tapestry users
Subject: Re: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in Javaposse podcast
>
> The beauty of Tapestry is that you _shouldn't_ be designing the pages but
> instead let your creative web designer do that.
Yup. We have that exact work separation and it works *perfectly*. Our
output (completed pages) is easily 3 times greater than any other
Tapestry project I've done where the java people mess with the
html/css.
Geoff
--
The Spindle guy. http://spindle.sf.net
Get help with Spindle:
http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/spindle-user
Blog: http://jroller.com/page/glongman
Feature Updates: http://spindle.sf.net/updates
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Re: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in Javaposse podcast
Posted by Geoff Longman <gl...@gmail.com>.
>
> The beauty of Tapestry is that you _shouldn't_ be designing the pages but
> instead let your creative web designer do that.
Yup. We have that exact work separation and it works *perfectly*. Our
output (completed pages) is easily 3 times greater than any other
Tapestry project I've done where the java people mess with the
html/css.
Geoff
--
The Spindle guy. http://spindle.sf.net
Get help with Spindle:
http://lists.sourceforge.net/mailman/listinfo/spindle-user
Blog: http://jroller.com/page/glongman
Feature Updates: http://spindle.sf.net/updates
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Re: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in Javaposse
podcast
Posted by Ron Piterman <rp...@gmx.net>.
woops - by no means, I meant Gavin King... sorry for the misunderstanding...
albartell wrote:
> Mr Ron,
>
> I am guessing your references to "he" in the email are referring to me. No I
> didn't post that just to come out of the corner as you say, nor did I bring
> it up to proclaim that "I know a better way" to gain mailing list
> popularity. I simply posted because I thought I could add something to the
> community.
>
> Now to get back to what we were talking about. . .
>
>
>>and demanding clean html from java programmers is IMO not realistic.
>
> I agree completely. For any customer facing website you should NEVER (with
> exceptions :-) have a programmer designing the motif. That is more personal
> opinion than anything though I am guessing there are creatively talented
> programmers out there - I am just not one of them:-)
>
> The beauty of Tapestry is that you _shouldn't_ be designing the pages but
> instead let your creative web designer do that.
>
>
> Aaron Bartell
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Ron Piterman
> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 10:18 AM
> To: tapestry-user@jakarta.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in
> Javaposse podcast
>
> sure thing, but css and html work tight together - the html *must* be very
> carefully written to allow the css do his work:
>
> html (structure) + css ( style ) = design
>
> and demanding clean html from java programmers is IMO not realistic.
>
> so, saying that jsf-jsp "templates" made by java programmers is the last
> word because all design is made in css, thats a joke. (but a great answer
> though - just say css and everybody will listen up, great strategy...). he
> surley doesn't believe it, but had to say something to get out of the
> corner... ( or, maybe he does believe it because he never used tapestry...
> in the past people would also travel by ship, but would never acknowledge
> how slow it is until they got the chance to cross the atlantic in a few
> hours...)
>
> Cheers,
> Ron
>
>
> albartell wrote:
>
>>That's what I thought too until I saw it on this site an realized how
>>much good css and html could clean up my pages.
>>
>>http://www.csszengarden.com/
>>
>>We've gotten so used to using tables everywhere that css is seldom
>>thought of as a positioning technology but rather a way to have your
>>fonts and colors all in one place.
>>
>>Aaron Bartell
>>http://mowyourlawn.com/blog
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Paul Cantrell [mailto:cantrell@pobox.com]
>>Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 12:07 AM
>>To: Tapestry users
>>Subject: Re: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in
>>Javaposse podcast
>>
>>In theory, establish a clean content / presentation split between HTML
>>and CSS is a pleasing idea.
>>
>>In practice, it's a bunch of starry-eyed crack-smoking idealism.
>>
>>My $0.02.
>>
>>P
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>>For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
>
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>
>
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RE: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in Javaposse podcast
Posted by albartell <al...@gmail.com>.
Mr Ron,
I am guessing your references to "he" in the email are referring to me. No I
didn't post that just to come out of the corner as you say, nor did I bring
it up to proclaim that "I know a better way" to gain mailing list
popularity. I simply posted because I thought I could add something to the
community.
Now to get back to what we were talking about. . .
>and demanding clean html from java programmers is IMO not realistic.
I agree completely. For any customer facing website you should NEVER (with
exceptions :-) have a programmer designing the motif. That is more personal
opinion than anything though I am guessing there are creatively talented
programmers out there - I am just not one of them:-)
The beauty of Tapestry is that you _shouldn't_ be designing the pages but
instead let your creative web designer do that.
Aaron Bartell
-----Original Message-----
From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Ron Piterman
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 10:18 AM
To: tapestry-user@jakarta.apache.org
Subject: Re: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in
Javaposse podcast
sure thing, but css and html work tight together - the html *must* be very
carefully written to allow the css do his work:
html (structure) + css ( style ) = design
and demanding clean html from java programmers is IMO not realistic.
so, saying that jsf-jsp "templates" made by java programmers is the last
word because all design is made in css, thats a joke. (but a great answer
though - just say css and everybody will listen up, great strategy...). he
surley doesn't believe it, but had to say something to get out of the
corner... ( or, maybe he does believe it because he never used tapestry...
in the past people would also travel by ship, but would never acknowledge
how slow it is until they got the chance to cross the atlantic in a few
hours...)
Cheers,
Ron
albartell wrote:
> That's what I thought too until I saw it on this site an realized how
> much good css and html could clean up my pages.
>
> http://www.csszengarden.com/
>
> We've gotten so used to using tables everywhere that css is seldom
> thought of as a positioning technology but rather a way to have your
> fonts and colors all in one place.
>
> Aaron Bartell
> http://mowyourlawn.com/blog
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Cantrell [mailto:cantrell@pobox.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 12:07 AM
> To: Tapestry users
> Subject: Re: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in
> Javaposse podcast
>
> In theory, establish a clean content / presentation split between HTML
> and CSS is a pleasing idea.
>
> In practice, it's a bunch of starry-eyed crack-smoking idealism.
>
> My $0.02.
>
> P
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
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Re: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in Javaposse
podcast
Posted by Ron Piterman <rp...@gmx.net>.
sure thing, but css and html work tight together - the html *must* be
very carefully written to allow the css do his work:
html (structure) + css ( style ) = design
and demanding clean html from java programmers is IMO not realistic.
so, saying that jsf-jsp "templates" made by java programmers is the last
word because all design is made in css, thats a joke. (but a great
answer though - just say css and everybody will listen up, great
strategy...). he surley doesn't believe it, but had to say something to
get out of the corner... ( or, maybe he does believe it because he never
used tapestry... in the past people would also travel by ship, but would
never acknowledge how slow it is until they got the chance to cross the
atlantic in a few hours...)
Cheers,
Ron
albartell wrote:
> That's what I thought too until I saw it on this site an realized how much
> good css and html could clean up my pages.
>
> http://www.csszengarden.com/
>
> We've gotten so used to using tables everywhere that css is seldom thought
> of as a positioning technology but rather a way to have your fonts and
> colors all in one place.
>
> Aaron Bartell
> http://mowyourlawn.com/blog
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Cantrell [mailto:cantrell@pobox.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 12:07 AM
> To: Tapestry users
> Subject: Re: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in
> Javaposse podcast
>
> In theory, establish a clean content / presentation split between HTML and
> CSS is a pleasing idea.
>
> In practice, it's a bunch of starry-eyed crack-smoking idealism.
>
> My $0.02.
>
> P
>
>
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>
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RE: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in Javaposse podcast
Posted by Mark Stang <ms...@pingidentity.com>.
For the most part our GUI guy points out our mistakes or when we stray from the path... However, we count on him to make sure the layout is correct and then we just muck with the tapestry bits...
-----Original Message-----
From: gaz jones [mailto:gareth.e.jones@gmail.com]
Sent: Fri 2/17/2006 9:21 AM
To: Tapestry users
Subject: Re: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in Javaposse podcast
csszengarden was created to encourage designers to use css by illustrating
that they dont need to use tables to create beautiful looking sites. its not
particularly aimed at accessibility... as a quick fix you could bring your
face closer to the monitor lol.
seperation between style and content is not _that_ hard to achieve, but it
takes discipline on the part of the developers to only output valid and
clean markup. i think tapestry templates really help with this goal. the
fact that tapestry doesnt like xhtml at the moment is a bit of a shame
accessibility wise though :( maybe hewy-lewis-smith could fix that
On 2/17/06, Konstantin Ignatyev <kg...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> csszengarden looks really impressive till I press CTRL++ (scale fonts) or
> resize browser window.
>
> IMO Non liquid layouts belong to PAPER, they should be banned from
> e-mediums.
>
> albartell <al...@gmail.com> wrote: That's what I thought too until I
> saw it on this site an realized how much
> good css and html could clean up my pages.
>
> http://www.csszengarden.com/
>
> We've gotten so used to using tables everywhere that css is seldom thought
> of as a positioning technology but rather a way to have your fonts and
> colors all in one place.
>
>
>
>
> Konstantin Ignatyev
>
>
>
>
> PS: If this is a typical day on planet earth, humans will add fifteen
> million tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of
> tropical rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate between
> forty to one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons of topsoil, add
> 2,700 tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase their population by
> 263,000
>
> Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial: Why the Environmental Movement Needs
> a Strategy for Reforming Universities and Public Schools. New York: State
> University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206)
>
Re: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in Javaposse podcast
Posted by gaz jones <ga...@gmail.com>.
csszengarden was created to encourage designers to use css by illustrating
that they dont need to use tables to create beautiful looking sites. its not
particularly aimed at accessibility... as a quick fix you could bring your
face closer to the monitor lol.
seperation between style and content is not _that_ hard to achieve, but it
takes discipline on the part of the developers to only output valid and
clean markup. i think tapestry templates really help with this goal. the
fact that tapestry doesnt like xhtml at the moment is a bit of a shame
accessibility wise though :( maybe hewy-lewis-smith could fix that
On 2/17/06, Konstantin Ignatyev <kg...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> csszengarden looks really impressive till I press CTRL++ (scale fonts) or
> resize browser window.
>
> IMO Non liquid layouts belong to PAPER, they should be banned from
> e-mediums.
>
> albartell <al...@gmail.com> wrote: That's what I thought too until I
> saw it on this site an realized how much
> good css and html could clean up my pages.
>
> http://www.csszengarden.com/
>
> We've gotten so used to using tables everywhere that css is seldom thought
> of as a positioning technology but rather a way to have your fonts and
> colors all in one place.
>
>
>
>
> Konstantin Ignatyev
>
>
>
>
> PS: If this is a typical day on planet earth, humans will add fifteen
> million tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of
> tropical rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate between
> forty to one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons of topsoil, add
> 2,700 tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase their population by
> 263,000
>
> Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial: Why the Environmental Movement Needs
> a Strategy for Reforming Universities and Public Schools. New York: State
> University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206)
>
Re: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in Javaposse
podcast
Posted by Ron Piterman <rp...@gmx.net>.
what I meant is something else:
if you compare html+css and xml+xsl: in html-css, there is no
"direction" - practically (theoretically maybe not...) they must be
coupled to achieve good results-
xml-xsl on the other side has a flow: first comes the xml (or rather
dtd) , then you write an xsl which will turn that xml to whatever you
want, event flash...
ron
Konstantin Ignatyev wrote:
> That is the well maintained MYTH of XSLT,
> no XSL cannot transforme XML into anything (or it is insanely painful) that is why it needs to be extended with real languages or replaced with XML-Query
> http://kgionline.com/articles/xsl_50_faster.jsp
>
> Ron Piterman <rp...@gmx.net> wrote: the xml can be
> arbitrary, but ofcause a good one, but the xsl will transform it to
> whatever) -
>
>
>
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Re: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in Javaposse
podcast
Posted by Leonardo Quijano Vincenzi <le...@dtqsoftware.com>.
I know I know, that's why I say good content / style separation is a
*programming issue*. How do I provide templating facilities that allow
me to synchronize design work and integrate with my own database
connection routines and loops and such? That's a programming problem,
that Tapestry resolves in some ways. CSS - a programming solution, not a
design one! - also helps in that respect. XML technologies and such are
another approach.
I think the current state in technology, even though is not perfect,
allow for pretty good results in that respect. Of course, I agree with
you on the JSF bullshit. JSF and ASP.NET are, IMO, designed to show good
IDEs, and not to do good programming. ASP.NET doesn't even treat CSS
with respect (yeah, the option is there, but it's not a first-class
citizen). I feel like using ol' FrontPage when programming in it. No
wonder why so many *lazy* developers only get to build in Visual Studio
with ASP.NET's "colors" and fonts and stuff, and then wonder why their
site is so hard to maintain.
Tapestry, OTH, I think is designed to allow for better programming. It
could even get better (its APIs need simplification, and lazyness - this
time in the good sense of the word - should be encouraged).
BTW, does anyone know of a good CSS library open source project?
Something that has standard layout CSSs, maybe some Ant scripts to
generate templates, etc? That'd be nice to have.
--
Ing. Leonardo Quijano Vincenzi
DTQ Software
Ron Piterman wrote:
> I don't fully agree with you -
>
> ofcause, in theory, everyone can write good html, even java
> programmers ;-)
>
> but if you work with a web-designer, you can not split the work: I
> write the html and you do the styling with the css - they are coupled
> together - they don't relate to each other like xml and xsl, ( the xml
> can be arbitrary, but ofcause a good one, but the xsl will transform
> it to whatever) - the only one that can do that is the html designer -
>
> my point is - when Gavin King says JSF-JSPs stand in no designer's way
> because he (the designer) does his work with the css - thats bulshit.
>
> cheers,
> Ron
>
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Re: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in Javaposse podcast
Posted by Konstantin Ignatyev <kg...@yahoo.com>.
That is the well maintained MYTH of XSLT,
no XSL cannot transforme XML into anything (or it is insanely painful) that is why it needs to be extended with real languages or replaced with XML-Query
http://kgionline.com/articles/xsl_50_faster.jsp
Ron Piterman <rp...@gmx.net> wrote: the xml can be
arbitrary, but ofcause a good one, but the xsl will transform it to
whatever) -
Re: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in Javaposse
podcast
Posted by Ron Piterman <rp...@gmx.net>.
I don't fully agree with you -
ofcause, in theory, everyone can write good html, even java programmers ;-)
but if you work with a web-designer, you can not split the work: I write
the html and you do the styling with the css - they are coupled together
- they don't relate to each other like xml and xsl, ( the xml can be
arbitrary, but ofcause a good one, but the xsl will transform it to
whatever) - the only one that can do that is the html designer -
my point is - when Gavin King says JSF-JSPs stand in no designer's way
because he (the designer) does his work with the css - thats bulshit.
cheers,
Ron
Leonardo Quijano Vincenzi wrote:
> Is a matter of order and of knowing the technology we are working with.
> It's a myth that a good programmer can't be a good HTML coder (note that
> I say *coder*, not designer).
> Good separation of content / style is a programming issue, not a design
> one.
>
> For me, bad HTML or CSS, given the current advances in browser adoption
> and web technology, is just laziness.
>
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Re: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in Javaposse
podcast
Posted by Leonardo Quijano Vincenzi <le...@dtqsoftware.com>.
Is a matter of order and of knowing the technology we are working with.
It's a myth that a good programmer can't be a good HTML coder (note that
I say *coder*, not designer).
Good separation of content / style is a programming issue, not a design one.
For me, bad HTML or CSS, given the current advances in browser adoption
and web technology, is just laziness.
--
Ing. Leonardo Quijano Vincenzi
DTQ Software
albartell wrote:
> I think where I get lost is not necessarily in the understanding of how to
> do it, but more on the side of what people like to see. For instance I can't
> for the life of me come up with good color palate matching or create that
> initial page focal point (i.e. where the users eyes go on the page first).
>
> It takes a different mind to go from JDBC to page layout and do both well,
> and I think the majority of us programmers either can't do it or would
> rather not do it. We are more concerned about how fast it runs or the amount
> of features we fit onto one page, etc.
>
> Aaron Bartell
>
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RE: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in Javaposse podcast
Posted by albartell <al...@gmail.com>.
I think where I get lost is not necessarily in the understanding of how to
do it, but more on the side of what people like to see. For instance I can't
for the life of me come up with good color palate matching or create that
initial page focal point (i.e. where the users eyes go on the page first).
It takes a different mind to go from JDBC to page layout and do both well,
and I think the majority of us programmers either can't do it or would
rather not do it. We are more concerned about how fast it runs or the amount
of features we fit onto one page, etc.
Aaron Bartell
-----Original Message-----
From: Leonardo Quijano Vincenzi [mailto:leonardo@dtqsoftware.com]
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 12:43 PM
To: Tapestry users
Subject: Re: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in
Javaposse podcast
Well then the problem is the java programmer, not the CSS! I always wonder
how one guy who is disciplined enough to do proper JDBC and transaction
demarcation, or to build complex architectures, can't use HTML as it was
designed to. I think people underestimate the work of a good web coder.
This is problem of culture, not that it is impossible to make CSS work
properly.
--
Ing. Leonardo Quijano Vincenzi
DTQ Software
Ron Piterman wrote:
> the nice point about it: how imressive csszengarden is, try letting a
> java programmer write *the html* (of cssgarden) from scratch- that
> would never work...
>
> Cheers,
> Ron
>
>
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Re: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in Javaposse
podcast
Posted by Leonardo Quijano Vincenzi <le...@dtqsoftware.com>.
Well then the problem is the java programmer, not the CSS! I always
wonder how one guy who is disciplined enough to do proper JDBC and
transaction demarcation, or to build complex architectures, can't use
HTML as it was designed to. I think people underestimate the work of a
good web coder.
This is problem of culture, not that it is impossible to make CSS work
properly.
--
Ing. Leonardo Quijano Vincenzi
DTQ Software
Ron Piterman wrote:
> the nice point about it: how imressive csszengarden is, try letting a
> java programmer write *the html* (of cssgarden) from scratch- that
> would never work...
>
> Cheers,
> Ron
>
>
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Re: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in Javaposse
podcast
Posted by Ron Piterman <rp...@gmx.net>.
the nice point about it: how imressive csszengarden is, try letting a
java programmer write *the html* (of cssgarden) from scratch- that would
never work...
Cheers,
Ron
Konstantin Ignatyev wrote:
> csszengarden looks really impressive till I press CTRL++ (scale fonts) or resize browser window.
>
> IMO Non liquid layouts belong to PAPER, they should be banned from e-mediums.
>
> albartell <al...@gmail.com> wrote: That's what I thought too until I saw it on this site an realized how much
> good css and html could clean up my pages.
>
> http://www.csszengarden.com/
>
> We've gotten so used to using tables everywhere that css is seldom thought
> of as a positioning technology but rather a way to have your fonts and
> colors all in one place.
>
>
>
>
> Konstantin Ignatyev
>
>
>
>
> PS: If this is a typical day on planet earth, humans will add fifteen million tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of tropical rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate between forty to one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons of topsoil, add 2,700 tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase their population by 263,000
>
> Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial: Why the Environmental Movement Needs a Strategy for Reforming Universities and Public Schools. New York: State University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206)
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RE: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in Javaposse podcast
Posted by Konstantin Ignatyev <kg...@yahoo.com>.
csszengarden looks really impressive till I press CTRL++ (scale fonts) or resize browser window.
IMO Non liquid layouts belong to PAPER, they should be banned from e-mediums.
albartell <al...@gmail.com> wrote: That's what I thought too until I saw it on this site an realized how much
good css and html could clean up my pages.
http://www.csszengarden.com/
We've gotten so used to using tables everywhere that css is seldom thought
of as a positioning technology but rather a way to have your fonts and
colors all in one place.
Konstantin Ignatyev
PS: If this is a typical day on planet earth, humans will add fifteen million tons of carbon to the atmosphere, destroy 115 square miles of tropical rainforest, create seventy-two miles of desert, eliminate between forty to one hundred species, erode seventy-one million tons of topsoil, add 2,700 tons of CFCs to the stratosphere, and increase their population by 263,000
Bowers, C.A. The Culture of Denial: Why the Environmental Movement Needs a Strategy for Reforming Universities and Public Schools. New York: State University of New York Press, 1997: (4) (5) (p.206)
RE: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in Javaposse podcast
Posted by albartell <al...@gmail.com>.
That's what I thought too until I saw it on this site an realized how much
good css and html could clean up my pages.
http://www.csszengarden.com/
We've gotten so used to using tables everywhere that css is seldom thought
of as a positioning technology but rather a way to have your fonts and
colors all in one place.
Aaron Bartell
http://mowyourlawn.com/blog
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Cantrell [mailto:cantrell@pobox.com]
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 12:07 AM
To: Tapestry users
Subject: Re: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in
Javaposse podcast
In theory, establish a clean content / presentation split between HTML and
CSS is a pleasing idea.
In practice, it's a bunch of starry-eyed crack-smoking idealism.
My $0.02.
P
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RE: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in Javaposse podcast
Posted by Jimmi Dyson <ji...@lawton.co.uk>.
A few months ago, I would have agreed with you on this.
But we decided to get a bit starry-eyed (without the crack) and we
really surprised ourselves. All our applications are now being done with
this clean split between styling and mark-up. Benefits of this are
increased browser-compatiblity (yes - increased) and improved
accessibility.
As a Java programmer, I don't have the expertise to produce the kind of
CSS and clean HTML that allows us to do this.
And that is where Tapestry is so great.
We are lucky enough to have an amazing web designer who has the in-depth
knowledge to produce clean HTML with a brilliant separation from the
CSS. The Java developers working on the projects can stick to the Java
code where they should be used.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Cantrell [mailto:cantrell@pobox.com]
Sent: 17 February 2006 06:07
To: Tapestry users
Subject: Re: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in
Javaposse podcast
In theory, establish a clean content / presentation split between
HTML and CSS is a pleasing idea.
In practice, it's a bunch of starry-eyed crack-smoking idealism.
My $0.02.
P
On Feb 16, 2006, at 11:16 PM, Chris Hughes wrote:
> I agree with Gavin's sentiment that, in general, you want to do your
> presentation work in CSS. However, in order for that to be
> effective, you
> really need to have good mark-up to style.
>
> The edge that I think Tapestry has here is that it makes it easy
> for me to
> produce the mark-up, rather than relying on the knowledge/
> experience/tastes
> of the JSF component developer. In order for me to have control
> over the
> mark-up in JSF, I have to write my own components - which seems
> unnecessarily complex for what should be a reasonably simple task.
>
> Chris
>
> PS - I'd also recommend the Javaposse podcasts, as they cover some
> good
> material. For those that have not listened, it's probably worth
> stating
> up-front that the presenters all met each other through developing/
> using
> Sun's Creator product, so there does tend to be some leaning
> towards JSF...
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Raul Raja Martinez
> Sent: Friday, 17 February 2006 2:35 PM
> To: tapestry-user@jakarta.apache.org
> Subject: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in
> Javaposse
> podcast
>
> Hi, just recently listen Gavin King making a comment about JSF in the
> javaposse podcasts. He points out tapestry ability to separate html
> templates from component logic and definitions, but he also
> justifies that
> this shouldn't be an issue in jsf because all the design should be
> done in
> css.
>
> I personally disagree, since there are little things easier to do
> in the
> .html, but I thought it might be interesting for people to listen, the
> javaposse podcasts are very cool and they interview important
> people in the
> java community.
>
> http://javaposse.com/index.php?post_category=podcasts
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Piano music podcast: http://inthehands.com
Other interesting stuff: http://innig.net
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Re: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in Javaposse podcast
Posted by Paul Cantrell <ca...@pobox.com>.
In theory, establish a clean content / presentation split between
HTML and CSS is a pleasing idea.
In practice, it's a bunch of starry-eyed crack-smoking idealism.
My $0.02.
P
On Feb 16, 2006, at 11:16 PM, Chris Hughes wrote:
> I agree with Gavin's sentiment that, in general, you want to do your
> presentation work in CSS. However, in order for that to be
> effective, you
> really need to have good mark-up to style.
>
> The edge that I think Tapestry has here is that it makes it easy
> for me to
> produce the mark-up, rather than relying on the knowledge/
> experience/tastes
> of the JSF component developer. In order for me to have control
> over the
> mark-up in JSF, I have to write my own components - which seems
> unnecessarily complex for what should be a reasonably simple task.
>
> Chris
>
> PS - I'd also recommend the Javaposse podcasts, as they cover some
> good
> material. For those that have not listened, it's probably worth
> stating
> up-front that the presenters all met each other through developing/
> using
> Sun's Creator product, so there does tend to be some leaning
> towards JSF...
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Raul Raja Martinez
> Sent: Friday, 17 February 2006 2:35 PM
> To: tapestry-user@jakarta.apache.org
> Subject: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in
> Javaposse
> podcast
>
> Hi, just recently listen Gavin King making a comment about JSF in the
> javaposse podcasts. He points out tapestry ability to separate html
> templates from component logic and definitions, but he also
> justifies that
> this shouldn't be an issue in jsf because all the design should be
> done in
> css.
>
> I personally disagree, since there are little things easier to do
> in the
> .html, but I thought it might be interesting for people to listen, the
> javaposse podcasts are very cool and they interview important
> people in the
> java community.
>
> http://javaposse.com/index.php?post_category=podcasts
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Piano music podcast: http://inthehands.com
Other interesting stuff: http://innig.net
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RE: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in Javaposse podcast
Posted by Chris Hughes <ca...@gmail.com>.
I agree with Gavin's sentiment that, in general, you want to do your
presentation work in CSS. However, in order for that to be effective, you
really need to have good mark-up to style.
The edge that I think Tapestry has here is that it makes it easy for me to
produce the mark-up, rather than relying on the knowledge/experience/tastes
of the JSF component developer. In order for me to have control over the
mark-up in JSF, I have to write my own components - which seems
unnecessarily complex for what should be a reasonably simple task.
Chris
PS - I'd also recommend the Javaposse podcasts, as they cover some good
material. For those that have not listened, it's probably worth stating
up-front that the presenters all met each other through developing/using
Sun's Creator product, so there does tend to be some leaning towards JSF...
-----Original Message-----
From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Raul Raja Martinez
Sent: Friday, 17 February 2006 2:35 PM
To: tapestry-user@jakarta.apache.org
Subject: Gavin King's comment about presentation code and CSS in Javaposse
podcast
Hi, just recently listen Gavin King making a comment about JSF in the
javaposse podcasts. He points out tapestry ability to separate html
templates from component logic and definitions, but he also justifies that
this shouldn't be an issue in jsf because all the design should be done in
css.
I personally disagree, since there are little things easier to do in the
.html, but I thought it might be interesting for people to listen, the
javaposse podcasts are very cool and they interview important people in the
java community.
http://javaposse.com/index.php?post_category=podcasts
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