A bad idea

[Vic Cekvenich <ma...@baseBeans.com>]

I just wanted to say that I think I think this project is a bad idea:

-There are open source J2EE proejcts out there already.
-This is not inovative.
-The user comunity did not ask for this.
-It wastes resources
-Tomcat 5 and JSTL are already doing a lot of this, J2EE should be about pick and chose


<WILD: Guess= "Sun wants to use ASF to make EJB more important then it is, and weaken JBoss.
I think Java-ASF and Sun should part ways:
 http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=SUNW&d=c&k=c2&a=v&p=e5,m20,m100,m200,e200&t=2y&l=off&z=l&q=l 
vs:
http://viva.sourceforge.net/ 
They are trading near liquidation, the value of cash in bank. Java != SunW anymore. "/>

I think a C# section would be better for OS, to support projects like N-Hibrenate and MavNet on Borland C#, which is a free download.
http://borland.com/products/downloads/download_csharpbuilder.html
ASF has PHP, and HTTP is writen in C, so why not an ECMA standard C#

Is there someplace where a vote on this project can be seen? Even BOD should show up on reports.
EJB should be allowed to die w/o artifical support.

Good luck,

.V


ps:
It realy makes me wonder about ASF, last time they voted without comment on 
http://www.theserverside.com/home/thread.jsp?thread_id=20005 
http://www.theserverside.com/home/thread.jsp?thread_id=19942 
As per above I Quote: 
"though IBM and Motorola still voted no. There also appear to be some disagreements within the JCP board about the licensing of these specs. Sun apparently plans to charge a "Per unit royalty fee which will be dependent on volume." 
Doug Lea voted with comment. 
Apache vote with Sun with YES, without comment this says. 
I am wondering why?

My project on sf.net is now a non ASF license, I am using open commons license instead.

RE: A bad idea

[Brian Behlendorf <br...@collab.net>]

I recommend not wasting much energy on feeding the flames.  This is not
the place to debate the merits of the project; this is a place to talk
about how to build it.  Those who feel it's a bad idea are welcome to not
subscribe to the list and never visit the web site.

	Brian

RE: A bad idea

["Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>]

Vic,

> -There are open source J2EE proejcts out there already.

None of which have passed the TCK, most of which cannot because they lack
the breadth of scope, many of which are excitedly joining this project to
contribute to a completely certified J2EE release.

> -This is not inovative.

How would you know?  There is no code, yet.  I would be absolutely shocked,
looking around at the participants, if innovation didn't occur.

> -The user comunity did not ask for this.

The reason this project exists is because communities asked for it.  And
asked for it.  In the first day after the announcement 100s of people from
many companies and countries have expressed enthusiastic support, and
interest in helping.  A tiny handlful of people have expressed an opposing
viewpoint.

> -It wastes resources

Hardly.  In fact, it does quite the opposite.  The project provides a means
by which multiple J2EE communities, each of which have one or more parts of
the puzzle, can come together and mutually leverage their efforts for a big
gain, and be joined by additional individuals eager to help.

> -Tomcat 5 and JSTL are already doing a lot of this, J2EE should be about
pick and chose

This project doesn't replace Tomcat 5, JSTL, or any of the other projects.
It uses them.  This project is about providing a framework and process that
puts together the necessary components of a J2EE certified release under the
Apache Software License.

JBoss, and any other party agreeing to abide by ASF Community Rules and
license the code under the Apache Software License is able to participate.
IBM, Sun, BEA, Oracle, JBoss, OpenEJB, MX4J, CDN, you, whomever.  If JBoss
chooses to not participate, that is their decision.  Many members of their
community have chosen otherwise.

The ASF has many people who commit here, on other open source projects, and
on closed source projects.  I note that some of those who have chosen to
participate on this project have had their CVS permissions revoked by JBoss.
I have had no involvement at all with JBoss, but I cannot help feeling that
*if* retaliation is part of their community culture, then I am not surprised
should people want to participate elsewhere.

Note, too, that an Apache licensed certified J2EE platform can be used by
anyone.  JBoss uses Apache licensed code, as do most projects.  The same
will be true of this code.  Nothing is being taken away from anyone.  An
Open Source, certified J2EE platform is being given at no charge to anyone.

Hard to see a downside.

	--- Noel

RE: A bad idea

[James Hicks <jr...@txucom.net>]

You are a walking contradiction.  You start by saying this is a bad idea
because there are already projects out there, but then you say J2EE
should be about choice.  Which one is it?  
 
Also, why is this not innovative?  Doesn't competition fuel innovation?

 
If the usr community did not ask for this, then why did I have 100+
emails today about geronimo?  If there are no interested parties, the
project will die by itself, so don't sweat it.
 
How does it waste resources?  Nobody is forcing you to contribute.
 
Tomcat and JSTL are not J2EE servers.
 
I do agree with you that ASF needs a C# section for projects.  If you
have an ASF License compatible C# project, why don't you propose it and
be the first?
 
James Hicks

-----Original Message-----
From: Vic Cekvenich [mailto:maillist@baseBeans.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 7:50 PM
To: geronimo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: A bad idea


I just wanted to say that I think I think this project is a bad idea:
 
-There are open source J2EE proejcts out there already.
-This is not inovative.
-The user comunity did not ask for this.
-It wastes resources
-Tomcat 5 and JSTL are already doing a lot of this, J2EE should be about
pick and chose
 


<WILD: Guess= "Sun wants to use ASF to make EJB more important then it
is, and weaken JBoss.
I think Java-ASF and Sun should part ways:
 http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=SUNW
<http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=SUNW&d=c&k=c2&a=v&p=e5,m20,m100,m200,e200&
t=2y&l=off&z=l&q=l>
&d=c&k=c2&a=v&p=e5,m20,m100,m200,e200&t=2y&l=off&z=l&q=l 
vs:
http://viva.sourceforge.net/ 
They are trading near liquidation, the value of cash in bank. Java !=
SunW anymore. "/>
 
I think a C# section would be better for OS, to support projects like
N-Hibrenate and MavNet on Borland C#, which is a free download.
http://borland.com/products/downloads/download_csharpbuilder.html
ASF has PHP, and HTTP is writen in C, so why not an ECMA standard C#
 
Is there someplace where a vote on this project can be seen? Even BOD
should show up on reports.
EJB should be allowed to die w/o artifical support.
 
Good luck,
 
.V
 
 
ps:
It realy makes me wonder about ASF, last time they voted without comment
on 
http://www.theserverside.com/home/thread.jsp?thread_id=20005 
http://www.theserverside.com/home/thread.jsp?thread_id=19942 
As per above I Quote: 
"though IBM and Motorola still voted no. There also appear to be some
disagreements within the JCP board about the licensing of these specs.
Sun apparently plans to charge a "Per unit royalty fee which will be
dependent on volume." 
Doug Lea voted with comment. 
Apache vote with Sun with YES, without comment this says. 
I am wondering why?
 
My project on sf.net is now a non ASF license, I am using open commons
license instead.