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Posted to general@jakarta.apache.org by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org> on 2003/02/06 18:28:12 UTC
[Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Maven as a top-level apache project
Date: 06 Feb 2003 12:20:32 -0500
From: Jason van Zyl <ja...@zenplex.com>
Reply-To: "Turbine Maven Developers List"
<tu...@jakarta.apache.org>
Organization: Zenplex
Newsgroups: gmane.comp.jakarta.turbine.maven.devel
Hi,
As I've just gone through the process of getting db.apache.org of the
ground I would now like to attempt to do the same for Maven. A top-level
project could house Maven and ancillary tools like Continuum and an SCM
package and various IDE integration that are popping up.
I can easily mock up a site as I'll just borrow the tools I made for
db.apache.org.
There is a board meeting in two weeks so if the developers are in
agreement we'll try and go straight to the top.
--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Costin Manolache <cm...@yahoo.com>.
dion@multitask.com.au wrote:
> Sure, but let's not lose focus of what this is for. Distribution?
> Building? A company/individual can set up their own repository of jars (we
> all do) that they've accepted licenses for. The 'tools' should be able to
> work with that set up, similar to how Maven does today.
True. That's exactly my point. We need an Apache repository and a set
of tools to be used in apache - and this should work for all projects
and build tools that are in apache.
We need a standard layout and descriptors for dependencies - but
this needs to be agreed on by all involved.
If maven scope is to create a build tool - that's perfect. If maven
scope is both a build tool and an apache repository and non-apache
repository and defining standards for other build tools - that's not
good.
Probably it would be a good idea if someone with experience in a standard
process would get involved in the repository and descriptors- Geir or Craig
would be great ideas ( I know many have issues with the JCP - but the
fact remains that setting any standard is different than writing code ).
Costin
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Jason van Zyl <ja...@zenplex.com>.
On Thu, 2003-02-06 at 14:00, Costin Manolache wrote:
> James Taylor wrote:
>
> >> Maven is a nice tool - and I wish it good luck wherever it goes.
> >> But if Maven charter will include the creation of a maven-only repository
> >> - I hope at least some board members will vote -1.
> >
> > Hopefully we can keep these as seperate issues. Maven already has a
> > repository which can be used by any project, but might be considered
> > Maven (the project) only since access for uploading jars is currently
> > restricted. This is the case only because we are still developing the
> > administration application to open the repository up. The repository we
> > have now is neccesary to continue development of maven (the tool), but
> > nobody expects it to be the final solution.
> >
> > I would hate for this to prevent Maven's promotion to a top level
> > project, which I think is a step in the right direction for the project,
> > even if we still have a way to go, particularly with regard to a common
> > repository.
>
> I am talking about this in the context of the other discussions on
> having an apache repository ( and use the apache mirroring system, etc).
> Also in the context of having a common policy on how releases will
> be distributed and structured - to fit well in such a repository. And
> the set of tools and conventions that are needed to access the repository.
>
> I agree moving maven to a top level ( apache or jakarta ) is the best step,
> but the common repository must be common to apache, and not maven specific.
I want it to be common for all Java projects not just Apache. The
repository is for _all_ Java projects and the needs of majority of Java
developers outweighs the needs of simply Apache. I think you should take
a little more time and actually ask some questions. I don't think you
really understand what we're trying to do. Everything you outline above
is _exactly_ what we've been trying to do. But now that everyone has
figured out that this is indeed a good idea it's somehow bad that it's
all in the Maven repository? Why?
> ( I know that everyone can use maven repository already )
>
>
> BTW, given the license discussions it seems unlikely a solution that
> includes all the jars in the same place will work. So the "repository"
> will be not only a storage for jars, but a set of tools to deal with
> downloading from different locations with different methods ( and mirror
> lists, etc ). Again - I think this part can only be apache-wide.
For God's sake Costin please ask some questions before assuming what
capabilities are in Maven. We have multiple repositories, to deal with
most situations that arise. Kurt also had discussions with Ted about
using a PORTS like system. We've discussed many of these things. Just
because you're getting involved now please don't presume to know what we
have planned or what we have implemented. To toss out the -1, even
though not binding, without much backgroud information is shows heavy
bias. And that's fine, just be honest about it.
>
> Costin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
Peter Donald wrote:
>
> The decision not to use LGPL in Apache code is not due to license violations
> but a policy based decision handed down from the board as they dont feel it
> furthers Apaches aims.
incorrect. or at best incomplete and misleading.
http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/ReadMsg?listName=community@apache.org&msgId=641442
http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/ReadMsg?listName=community@apache.org&msgId=640360
perhaps you're referring to:
http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/ReadMsg?listName=community@apache.org&msgId=641503
in which roy mentions it as a policy rather than a legal concern. he
is speaking to a specific question. i suppose failing to protect our
users from inheriting onerous licence restrictions could be interpreted
as not 'furthering apache's aims,' but, as i said, i consider that more
than a little misleading.
--
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@realityforge.org>.
On Sat, 8 Feb 2003 08:28, Bruce Atherton wrote:
> First, imports of incompatibly-licensed code are verboten but calling out
> externally to Java running a main method is alright, correct?
yep - as long as the class to execute is dynamically loaded.
> Second, can we optionally load incompatibly-licensed code dynamically at
> runtime? So long as it is not required, and would only occur if the user
> already had the package locally? For example, we might have an abstract
> factory that dynamically finds whatever JAXP-compliant parser you have on
> the classpath. Would it be a license violation to allow it to find an
> LGPL'd parser?
nope. As long as the interface is licensed appropriately then you are fine.
> Third, if the above is allowed, how about optionally compiled code? Ant's
> build.xml already conditionally compiles code based on the classes
> available in the classpath. Would it be a license violation to have code
> that imports LGPL classes but that is compiled only if the classes are on
> the classpath of the user doing the build? I understand that it couldn't be
> in any builds produced by Apache, of course.
The decision not to use LGPL in Apache code is not due to license violations
but a policy based decision handed down from the board as they dont feel it
furthers Apaches aims.
In many cases LGPL code can be used without license violation problems but
because of the nature of java linking and the lack of clarity in LGPL wrt to
javas notion of linking there is some usages that are grey areas and some I
would definetly consider violations of the LGPL work.
> java.* classes. But what about others?
Most (all?) of them are not license violations and the board has not as yet
declared that they are not furthering Apaches aims.
--
Cheers,
Peter Donald
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
>>> 2. Can ASF Projects use GPL/LGPL Projects?
>>>
>>> Yes. But, they cannot distribute them.
>>
>> ASF projects can use GPL/LGPL code during the build process so long as
>> there is no runtime dependency in the code produced. Programs like
>> checkstyle are OK. Imports of classes covered by GPL/LGPL are not.
>> This last statement needs to be interpreted as a transitive closure.
>> Moving graph from jakarta commons sandbox to werken would not make it
>> OK for Maven to use graph.
>
> I would like some rationale on this. For one, I'm not buying the
> "import" idea. Why? Well I just built HTTPD against the glibc which is
> also LGPL. The #ifdef #includes make specific allowances for Linux and
> hence I don't buy that these are "common names for C libaries".
It is a fair question to ask of the httpd project. While it is doubly
outside my area of expertise (IANAL and not on the HTTPD project), I am
hightly confident that they are in the clear. The reason I say this is
that I am aware of analogous projects within IBM and know that IBM has a
large legal staff who are heavily involved in any such decisions. This
being said, every situation is different, and the HTTPD project needs to
be confident that they are doing the right thing.
> While IANAL, the LGPL, as it was explained to me, does not apply unless
> you directly modify the source of the LGPL library. Meaning if I
> imported checkstyle, I'd be fine (thats just linking and explicitly
> allowed), if I go and change even one class, that is not allowed.
>
> What I'd like clarification on is:
>
> 1. Is this the result of legal advice?
> 2. Is this simply a policy decision?
> 3. Why is it not evenly applied across all Apache projects?
> (most specifically HTTPD)
I believe that the answer is: yes, yes, and it is.
Re #1: I personally have talked to an IBM lawyer on very closely related
topics. Again, I must stress that every situation is different, so this
does need to be independently verified. In this case, Roy has indicated
that he personally has talked to one or more lawyers (possibly even the
same ones), but in this case on this very topic so I am completely
satisified that this is so.
Re: #2: Let me explain the rationalle behind the policy. While I am
uncomfortable doing so, let me use IBM as an example. IBM not only
contributes developer time and effort to a number of Apache projects, it
also harvests the results. It uses a number of projects internally, and
it even ships a number of them in commercial and for profit products.
This is something that is not only permitted by the Apache license, but
is encouraged.
Each time such code is picked up to be shipped (and I do truly mean each
time, i.e., every minor revision), a legal assessment is made.
Questions are asked as to whether the assertion of copyright is
credible. Whether the IBM corporation is comfortable with the license
terms of each dependency involved (recursively). Etc.
It is worth noting that in the legal profession there are rarely any
simple black and white answers. Terms like "reasonable doubt" and "due
dilligence" are involved. In such an environment, the reputation of the
copyright holder, particularly with respect to the aspects to which that
body polices its own work, counts heavily in such a decision.
Hopefully, this provides some insight as to why this issue is so
important to me, both as an ASF director and as representive of a
company that wishes to participate in Apache.
> -Andy
- Sam Ruby
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>> 2. Can ASF Projects use GPL/LGPL Projects?
>>
>> Yes. But, they cannot distribute them.
>
>
> ASF projects can use GPL/LGPL code during the build process so long as
> there is no runtime dependency in the code produced. Programs like
> checkstyle are OK. Imports of classes covered by GPL/LGPL are not. This
> last statement needs to be interpreted as a transitive closure. Moving
> graph from jakarta commons sandbox to werken would not make it OK for
> Maven to use graph.
>
I would like some rationale on this. For one, I'm not buying the
"import" idea. Why? Well I just built HTTPD against the glibc which is
also LGPL. The #ifdef #includes make specific allowances for Linux and
hence I don't buy that these are "common names for C libaries".
While IANAL, the LGPL, as it was explained to me, does not apply unless
you directly modify the source of the LGPL library. Meaning if I
imported checkstyle, I'd be fine (thats just linking and explicitly
allowed), if I go and change even one class, that is not allowed.
What I'd like clarification on is:
1. Is this the result of legal advice?
2. Is this simply a policy decision?
3. Why is it not evenly applied across all Apache projects?
(most specifically HTTPD)
-Andy
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Bruce Atherton <br...@callenish.com>.
At 07:53 PM 2/6/2003, Sam Ruby wrote:
>Dan Diephouse wrote:
>
>>2. Can ASF Projects use GPL/LGPL Projects?
>>Yes. But, they cannot distribute them.
>
>ASF projects can use GPL/LGPL code during the build process so long as
>there is no runtime dependency in the code produced. Programs like
>checkstyle are OK. Imports of classes covered by GPL/LGPL are not. This
>last statement needs to be interpreted as a transitive closure. Moving
>graph from jakarta commons sandbox to werken would not make it OK for
>Maven to use graph.
I appreciate why the ASF believes the GPL and LGPL are incompatible with
the Apache license, but I think I need a few clarifications on edge cases.
Apologies if this has been dealt with ad infinitum before.
First, imports of incompatibly-licensed code are verboten but calling out
externally to Java running a main method is alright, correct? This is
effectively the same as running an external GPL executable like CVS.
Second, can we optionally load incompatibly-licensed code dynamically at
runtime? So long as it is not required, and would only occur if the user
already had the package locally? For example, we might have an abstract
factory that dynamically finds whatever JAXP-compliant parser you have on
the classpath. Would it be a license violation to allow it to find an
LGPL'd parser?
Third, if the above is allowed, how about optionally compiled code? Ant's
build.xml already conditionally compiles code based on the classes
available in the classpath. Would it be a license violation to have code
that imports LGPL classes but that is compiled only if the classes are on
the classpath of the user doing the build? I understand that it couldn't be
in any builds produced by Apache, of course.
Finally, I went into the top source code directory in Ant and ran:
grep --recursive -0 '^import ' * | cut -f 2 -d " " | sort | uniq
and got some packages that surprised me (that is a zero, not a capital O,
btw). Other than the GPL and LGPL, are there other licenses that would
prohibit imports that we should be concerned about? Clearly Sun's
click-through licenses don't qualify, or we couldn't import any of the
java.* classes. But what about others?
I suspect that neither 2 nor 3 are allowed, but would appreciate an
official opinion.
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
Dan Diephouse wrote:
>>
>> People should have a resonable expectation that building an ASF
>> project should not involve the download of materials in violation of
>> their licenses or the incurring of any additional obligations.
>> Enforcement of this policy via Maven or simply by peer review of POMs
>> are acceptable way of achieving this goal.
>
> Now I am honestly confused. Everyone (not just on the list, but those
> on irc that I have talked to also) seems confused. I just want to
> clarify if we are debating the following points and what are the
> answers. I'll put what I think are the answers down and people can
> correct as needed.
For brevity, I'll omit the points I agree with, and address the ones
that I have concerns with. IANAL, but I am answering the following to
the best of my knowledge with respect to the guidance and policy that
have been stated by the likes of Roy and Ken. In short, this means that
I might later be corrected, but for what it is worth:
> 2. Can ASF Projects use GPL/LGPL Projects?
>
> Yes. But, they cannot distribute them.
ASF projects can use GPL/LGPL code during the build process so long as
there is no runtime dependency in the code produced. Programs like
checkstyle are OK. Imports of classes covered by GPL/LGPL are not.
This last statement needs to be interpreted as a transitive closure.
Moving graph from jakarta commons sandbox to werken would not make it OK
for Maven to use graph.
> 5. Can ibiblio put Sun licensed jars on their repository?
>
> Yes, but see the answer to the next question.
It is my belief that placing jars such as jsse.jar on ibibilio is in
violation of the license for that jar. There appear to be a number of
of suspect packages on http://www.ibiblio.org/maven/. dIon is trying to
do a review of them all, but as in many cases the jars were put there
without documentation, he is having difficulty. If those who placed the
jars there could help out, it would be most appreciated.
> 7. Can maven pull down GPL/LGPL jars from the repository when a user is
> using it to build their project? Or, is maven responsible to make sure
> that users use the it to only pull down licenses which they agree to
> when building their project?
>
> No. It is ultimately the user's responsiblity. But, it would be a very
> nice feature if it did that.
Agreed, however it is the responsibility of ASF projects to ensure that
none of their POMs involve such a download.
> 8. Can maven as part of its own build system pull down GPL/LGPL jars
> when building itself?
>
> Sam you said, "People should have a resonable expectation that building
> an ASF project should not involve the download of materials in violation
> of their licenses or the incurring of any additional obligations." Is
> this what situation you meant to apply it to?
>
> I would believe that Maven can depend on LGPL/GPL jars and pull them
> down when needed to build itself. Can you clarify?
I hope that the previous answers clarify why this is a No.
- Sam Ruby
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
On Fri, 7 Feb 2003, Dan Diephouse wrote:
>
> 4. Can ASF Projects use Sun BCL licensed products?
>
> Yes, but ASF can't distribute them.
>
Each product you download from Sun's java.sun.com web site has a license
that you have to agree to in order to download that JAR. In the case of
several commonly useful packages (including, for example, JavaMail, JAF,
and the JDBC 2.0 optional package (jdbc20ext.jar)), the license terms
allow you to redistribute the JAR under a set of conditions that you need
to agree to by accepting the license agreement -- the fundamental issue
that affects this discussion is that you cannot distribute it
*separately*. (See the individual licenses for other requirements.)
Including such JARs in a product, like Tomcat or James (for example) do,
is fine. Checking them in to an Apache CVS repository is not fine
(because it is then available individually to anyone with CVS access;
given that Apache repositories offer anonymous CVS access to anyone who
follows the instructions, that is clearly a problem).
Note that it is perfectly acceptable for *you* (as someone who wants to
build a package that includes the Sun JARs whose license allows
redistribution) to download your own copy of these packages (after
agreeing to the license terms), and include them in the distributions of
your own package. If you are using an automated build tool, you should
configure it to utilize repositories where you are satisfied that *your*
compliance with license requirements is appropriately dealt with.
If you have any questions on the terms of the Sun BCL license for a
particular package, and how they apply to you, go to the appropriate
download page, such as:
http://java.sun.com/products/javamail/
and click the download link. Then *read* the terms and conditions of the
license agreement that is displayed, rather than just blindly accepting
it, or believing what anyone else says about it. We are all responsible
for our own behavior, and ignorance of the requirements is not a legally
defensible excuse.
> Dan Diephouse
Craig McClanahan
PS: You should note that Apache Software Foundation downloads are subject
to a license, just like downloads from most software providers. In the
case of Apache-originated packages, the license is the Apache Software
License, Version 1.1 -- a copy of which can be found at:
http://www.apache.org/LICENSE
Just because the terms of this license give you lots of latitude in how
you use the software you download does *not* absolve you from meeting the
requirements that are outlined there.
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Dan Diephouse <da...@envoisolutions.com>.
Sam Ruby wrote:
>>
>> It is your responsibility to enforce that policy. Not maven and not
>> the ASF's. When you integrate JAR or any resource into your project
>> you are doing so delibrately. You should know where that jar
>> originally comes from. If you don't, ask on the developers or user's
>> list. Someone will gladly help. Even better, search google, I'm sure
>> something will turn up.
>>
>> - Dan Diephouse
>
>
> People should have a resonable expectation that building an ASF project
> should not involve the download of materials in violation of their
> licenses or the incurring of any additional obligations. Enforcement of
> this policy via Maven or simply by peer review of POMs are acceptable
> way of achieving this goal.
>
> - Sam Ruby
Sam,
Now I am honestly confused. Everyone (not just on the list, but those
on irc that I have talked to also) seems confused. I just want to
clarify if we are debating the following points and what are the
answers. I'll put what I think are the answers down and people can
correct as needed.
1. Can GPL/LGPL jars be hosed on ibiblio?
Yes, they seem to be very ok with that.
2. Can ASF Projects use GPL/LGPL Projects?
Yes. But, they cannot distribute them.
3. Does the ibiblio repository count as the ASF distributing GPL/LGP/etc?
No, because it is hosted by a third party.
4. Can ASF Projects use Sun BCL licensed products?
Yes, but ASF can't distribute them.
5. Can ibiblio put Sun licensed jars on their repository?
Yes, but see the answer to the next question.
6. If ibiblio has Sun jars on their repository can Maven still use the
repository?
No, because then it would be party to illegal activity.
7. Can maven pull down GPL/LGPL jars from the repository when a user is
using it to build their project? Or, is maven responsible to make sure
that users use the it to only pull down licenses which they agree to
when building their project?
No. It is ultimately the user's responsiblity. But, it would be a very
nice feature if it did that.
8. Can maven as part of its own build system pull down GPL/LGPL jars
when building itself?
Sam you said, "People should have a resonable expectation that building
an ASF project should not involve the download of materials in violation
of their licenses or the incurring of any additional obligations." Is
this what situation you meant to apply it to?
I would believe that Maven can depend on LGPL/GPL jars and pull them
down when needed to build itself. Can you clarify?
Cheers,
Dan Diephouse
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Jason van Zyl <ja...@zenplex.com>.
On Thu, 2003-02-06 at 22:06, Sam Ruby wrote:
>
> > It is your responsibility to enforce that policy. Not maven and not the
> > ASF's. When you integrate JAR or any resource into your project you are
> > doing so delibrately. You should know where that jar originally comes
> > from. If you don't, ask on the developers or user's list. Someone will
> > gladly help. Even better, search google, I'm sure something will turn up.
> >
> > - Dan Diephouse
>
> People should have a resonable expectation that building an ASF project
> should not involve the download of materials in violation of their
> licenses or the incurring of any additional obligations. Enforcement of
> this policy via Maven or simply by peer review of POMs are acceptable
> way of achieving this goal.
+1
> - Sam Ruby
>
>
>
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--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Dan Diephouse wrote:
> Steve Downey wrote:
>
>> From: <di...@multitask.com.au>
>> To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 8:07 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
>>
>>>> BTW, given the license discussions it seems unlikely a solution that
>>>> includes all the jars in the same place will work. So the "repository"
>>>> will be not only a storage for jars, but a set of tools to deal with
>>>> downloading from different locations with different methods ( and
>>>> mirror
>>>> lists, etc ). Again - I think this part can only be apache-wide.
>>>
>>> Sure, but let's not lose focus of what this is for. Distribution?
>>> Building? A company/individual can set up their own repository of
>>> jars (we
>>> all do) that they've accepted licenses for. The 'tools' should be
>>> able to
>>> work with that set up, similar to how Maven does today.
>>
>> One thing that has annoyed me is that Maven will download jars from the
>> ibiblio repository with no regard to the license of them. It's an easy
>> way
>> for jars to come into a build without formal review and acceptance of the
>> license. My company's policy is to use only BSD, ASF, or similar
>> licenses.
>> No GPL. And based on recent discussions here, we may prohibit LGPL. We do
>> also use commercially licensed software, and review carefully the
>> redistribution clauses. It's particularly troubling that the jars show up
>> without supporting documentation.
>
> It is your responsibility to enforce that policy. Not maven and not the
> ASF's. When you integrate JAR or any resource into your project you are
> doing so delibrately. You should know where that jar originally comes
> from. If you don't, ask on the developers or user's list. Someone will
> gladly help. Even better, search google, I'm sure something will turn up.
>
> - Dan Diephouse
People should have a resonable expectation that building an ASF project
should not involve the download of materials in violation of their
licenses or the incurring of any additional obligations. Enforcement of
this policy via Maven or simply by peer review of POMs are acceptable
way of achieving this goal.
- Sam Ruby
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Nick Chalko <ni...@chalko.com>.
Nick Chalko wrote:
>>
>> And why not: DISPLAY the damn license and require the user to type
>> "I do understand the terms of this licence" and click somewhere
>> ( that may also cover the requirements of some of the packages ).
>>
>> Or even better, if it's a GPL license Ruper should require the user
>> to type "I understand that all the software I ship that is bundled with
>> this jar will have to be GPLed". ( and if he types something wrong,
>> he'll have to type the whole thing again :-).Adding dependencies
>> should not
>> be easy.
>>
>> We certainly need a way to indicate to the user that that a jar is
>> a build-time dependency, a runtime required dependency or an optional
>> runtime dependency.
>>
>
Actually there are several usecases here to describe.
But this is why we need a new project to hash all this out.
>>
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Nick Chalko <ni...@chalko.com>.
Costin Manolache wrote:
>Nick Chalko wrote:
>
>
>
>>Agree, centipede has the same problem. Easy to download a jar without
>>knowing it's liscense.
>>Sending a license file with a jar is something that the new Jakarta
>>Ruper project should handle.
>>
>>
>
>And why not: DISPLAY the damn license and require the user to type
>"I do understand the terms of this licence" and click somewhere
>( that may also cover the requirements of some of the packages ).
>
>Or even better, if it's a GPL license Ruper should require the user
>to type "I understand that all the software I ship that is bundled with
>this jar will have to be GPLed". ( and if he types something wrong,
>he'll have to type the whole thing again :-).Adding dependencies should not
>be easy.
>
>We certainly need a way to indicate to the user that that a jar is
>a build-time dependency, a runtime required dependency or an optional
>runtime dependency.
>
>
Agree,, but one step at a time.
Lets get the project in the incubator first.
>Costin
>
>
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Pier Fumagalli <pi...@betaversion.org>.
On 9/2/03 2:05 "Costin Manolache" <cm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> And why not: DISPLAY the damn license and require the user to type
> "I do understand the terms of this licence" and click somewhere
> ( that may also cover the requirements of some of the packages ).
Click-through is something we always wanted to avoid...
Pier
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Costin Manolache <cm...@yahoo.com>.
Nick Chalko wrote:
> Agree, centipede has the same problem. Easy to download a jar without
> knowing it's liscense.
> Sending a license file with a jar is something that the new Jakarta
> Ruper project should handle.
And why not: DISPLAY the damn license and require the user to type
"I do understand the terms of this licence" and click somewhere
( that may also cover the requirements of some of the packages ).
Or even better, if it's a GPL license Ruper should require the user
to type "I understand that all the software I ship that is bundled with
this jar will have to be GPLed". ( and if he types something wrong,
he'll have to type the whole thing again :-).Adding dependencies should not
be easy.
We certainly need a way to indicate to the user that that a jar is
a build-time dependency, a runtime required dependency or an optional
runtime dependency.
Costin
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Nick Chalko <ni...@chalko.com>.
Steve Downey wrote:
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: news [mailto:news@main.gmane.org]On Behalf Of Dan Diephouse
>>Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 9:52 PM
>>To: general@jakarta.apache.org
>>Subject: Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
>>
>>
>>
>>It is your responsibility to enforce that policy. Not maven and not the
>>ASF's. When you integrate JAR or any resource into your project you are
>>doing so delibrately. You should know where that jar originally comes
>>from. If you don't, ask on the developers or user's list. Someone will
>>gladly help. Even better, search google, I'm sure something will turn up.
>>
>>- Dan Diephouse
>>
>>
>
>That's just it. Maven makes it easy to NOT do it deliberately. Jars are
>slipstreamed in because they are transitive dependencies. I do have the
>expectation that software from the ASF is under the ASF license, with no
>other restrictions.
>
>And searching google to find out where a jar came from is just silly. There
>should be documentation with the project that downloaded it. If there isn't,
>it's probably a license violation, since most licenses require that the
>license accompany the software, or at least acknowledge the copyright.
>
>
>
>
Agree, centipede has the same problem. Easy to download a jar without
knowing it's liscense.
Sending a license file with a jar is something that the new Jakarta
Ruper project should handle.
>
>
>
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>
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RE: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Steve Downey <st...@geowealth.com>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: news [mailto:news@main.gmane.org]On Behalf Of Dan Diephouse
> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 9:52 PM
> To: general@jakarta.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
>
>
>
> It is your responsibility to enforce that policy. Not maven and not the
> ASF's. When you integrate JAR or any resource into your project you are
> doing so delibrately. You should know where that jar originally comes
> from. If you don't, ask on the developers or user's list. Someone will
> gladly help. Even better, search google, I'm sure something will turn up.
>
> - Dan Diephouse
That's just it. Maven makes it easy to NOT do it deliberately. Jars are
slipstreamed in because they are transitive dependencies. I do have the
expectation that software from the ASF is under the ASF license, with no
other restrictions.
And searching google to find out where a jar came from is just silly. There
should be documentation with the project that downloaded it. If there isn't,
it's probably a license violation, since most licenses require that the
license accompany the software, or at least acknowledge the copyright.
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Dan Diephouse <da...@envoisolutions.com>.
Steve Downey wrote:
> From: <di...@multitask.com.au>
> To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 8:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
>
>
>
>>>BTW, given the license discussions it seems unlikely a solution that
>>>includes all the jars in the same place will work. So the "repository"
>>>will be not only a storage for jars, but a set of tools to deal with
>>>downloading from different locations with different methods ( and mirror
>>>lists, etc ). Again - I think this part can only be apache-wide.
>>
>>Sure, but let's not lose focus of what this is for. Distribution?
>>Building? A company/individual can set up their own repository of jars (we
>>all do) that they've accepted licenses for. The 'tools' should be able to
>>work with that set up, similar to how Maven does today.
>>
>
>
> One thing that has annoyed me is that Maven will download jars from the
> ibiblio repository with no regard to the license of them. It's an easy way
> for jars to come into a build without formal review and acceptance of the
> license. My company's policy is to use only BSD, ASF, or similar licenses.
> No GPL. And based on recent discussions here, we may prohibit LGPL. We do
> also use commercially licensed software, and review carefully the
> redistribution clauses. It's particularly troubling that the jars show up
> without supporting documentation.
It is your responsibility to enforce that policy. Not maven and not the
ASF's. When you integrate JAR or any resource into your project you are
doing so delibrately. You should know where that jar originally comes
from. If you don't, ask on the developers or user's list. Someone will
gladly help. Even better, search google, I'm sure something will turn up.
- Dan Diephouse
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RE: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Steve Downey <st...@geowealth.com>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Poeschl [mailto:mpoeschl@marmot.at]
> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 9:44 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
>
>
> Steve Downey wrote:
>
> >From: <di...@multitask.com.au>
> >To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 8:07 PM
> >Subject: Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>>BTW, given the license discussions it seems unlikely a solution that
> >>>includes all the jars in the same place will work. So the "repository"
> >>>will be not only a storage for jars, but a set of tools to deal with
> >>>downloading from different locations with different methods (
> and mirror
> >>>lists, etc ). Again - I think this part can only be apache-wide.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Sure, but let's not lose focus of what this is for. Distribution?
> >>Building? A company/individual can set up their own repository
> of jars (we
> >>all do) that they've accepted licenses for. The 'tools' should
> be able to
> >>work with that set up, similar to how Maven does today.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >One thing that has annoyed me is that Maven will download jars from the
> >ibiblio repository with no regard to the license of them. It's
> an easy way
> >for jars to come into a build without formal review and acceptance of the
> >license. My company's policy is to use only BSD, ASF, or similar
> licenses.
> >No GPL. And based on recent discussions here, we may prohibit LGPL. We do
> >also use commercially licensed software, and review carefully the
> >redistribution clauses. It's particularly troubling that the jars show up
> >without supporting documentation.
> >
>
> why don't you setup your own private repository where you can control
> which jars are stored there ... you don't need to use the ibiblio repo
>
> martin
The real problem with that is that my interest in maven only extends as far
as it's required to build other projects. I've downloaded the beta in order
to use it to build projects that require it. I don't intend to use it myself
(at least at this point) for my projects. So learning about setting up my
own repository is way too much work.
I'm conscientious about reviewing the licenses for software I bring in. Not
everyone in the organization is. That's an internal problem that has to be
addressed by raising awareness of the issue. However, the easier it is for
software to come in without review, the harder it is to manage the problem.
Particularly since when jars come in via maven, there's now a bunch of
detective work to be done to find out where it actually came from and what
the license is.
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Martin Poeschl <mp...@marmot.at>.
Steve Downey wrote:
>From: <di...@multitask.com.au>
>To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
>Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 8:07 PM
>Subject: Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
>
>
>
>
>>>BTW, given the license discussions it seems unlikely a solution that
>>>includes all the jars in the same place will work. So the "repository"
>>>will be not only a storage for jars, but a set of tools to deal with
>>>downloading from different locations with different methods ( and mirror
>>>lists, etc ). Again - I think this part can only be apache-wide.
>>>
>>>
>>Sure, but let's not lose focus of what this is for. Distribution?
>>Building? A company/individual can set up their own repository of jars (we
>>all do) that they've accepted licenses for. The 'tools' should be able to
>>work with that set up, similar to how Maven does today.
>>
>>
>>
>
>One thing that has annoyed me is that Maven will download jars from the
>ibiblio repository with no regard to the license of them. It's an easy way
>for jars to come into a build without formal review and acceptance of the
>license. My company's policy is to use only BSD, ASF, or similar licenses.
>No GPL. And based on recent discussions here, we may prohibit LGPL. We do
>also use commercially licensed software, and review carefully the
>redistribution clauses. It's particularly troubling that the jars show up
>without supporting documentation.
>
why don't you setup your own private repository where you can control
which jars are stored there ... you don't need to use the ibiblio repo
martin
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by di...@multitask.com.au.
"Steve Downey" <st...@globeinvestment.com> wrote on 07/02/2003
01:13:24 PM:
> One thing that has annoyed me is that Maven will download jars from the
> ibiblio repository with no regard to the license of them. It's an easy
way
> for jars to come into a build without formal review and acceptance of
the
> license. My company's policy is to use only BSD, ASF, or similar
licenses.
> No GPL. And based on recent discussions here, we may prohibit LGPL. We
do
> also use commercially licensed software, and review carefully the
> redistribution clauses. It's particularly troubling that the jars show
up
> without supporting documentation.
This would better belong on the Maven list.
We are attempting to work out a way of specifying acceptable license
usage.
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Blog: http://www.freeroller.net/page/dion/Weblog
Work: http://www.multitask.com.au
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Steve Downey <st...@globeinvestment.com>.
From: <di...@multitask.com.au>
To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 8:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
> > BTW, given the license discussions it seems unlikely a solution that
> > includes all the jars in the same place will work. So the "repository"
> > will be not only a storage for jars, but a set of tools to deal with
> > downloading from different locations with different methods ( and mirror
> > lists, etc ). Again - I think this part can only be apache-wide.
>
> Sure, but let's not lose focus of what this is for. Distribution?
> Building? A company/individual can set up their own repository of jars (we
> all do) that they've accepted licenses for. The 'tools' should be able to
> work with that set up, similar to how Maven does today.
>
One thing that has annoyed me is that Maven will download jars from the
ibiblio repository with no regard to the license of them. It's an easy way
for jars to come into a build without formal review and acceptance of the
license. My company's policy is to use only BSD, ASF, or similar licenses.
No GPL. And based on recent discussions here, we may prohibit LGPL. We do
also use commercially licensed software, and review carefully the
redistribution clauses. It's particularly troubling that the jars show up
without supporting documentation.
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
> repository.
>
> The 'apache repository' and the ones maven can use (note that maven can
> have multiple repositories) are not necessarily one and the same thing. We
> have a 'repository' at a customer site I work on, as well as one at the
> office. Apache hosting its own (of whatever format is agreed) would be a
> good idea, IMHO. Having it mirrored would also be good.
>
Okay I can buy that.
>
> Sure, but let's not lose focus of what this is for. Distribution?
> Building? A company/individual can set up their own repository of jars (we
> all do) that they've accepted licenses for. The 'tools' should be able to
> work with that set up, similar to how Maven does today.
>
Agreed. And beyond. There are many things that could be shared use
that Maven does not yet do. These common tools and their common
descriptors, and maybe later mirrored repositories are what ruper (the
name is irrelevant) is about. A project to provide this in a way that
everyone can use. Thats all. It will be most useful as a collaboration
between Maven, Ant and Centipede committers as well anyone else who
builds a Java aproject at Apache.
-Andy
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by di...@multitask.com.au.
news <ne...@main.gmane.org> wrote on 07/02/2003 06:00:32 AM:
> I am talking about this in the context of the other discussions on
> having an apache repository ( and use the apache mirroring system, etc).
> Also in the context of having a common policy on how releases will
> be distributed and structured - to fit well in such a repository. And
> the set of tools and conventions that are needed to access the
repository.
The 'apache repository' and the ones maven can use (note that maven can
have multiple repositories) are not necessarily one and the same thing. We
have a 'repository' at a customer site I work on, as well as one at the
office. Apache hosting its own (of whatever format is agreed) would be a
good idea, IMHO. Having it mirrored would also be good.
> I agree moving maven to a top level ( apache or jakarta ) is the best
step,
> but the common repository must be common to apache, and not maven
specific.
> ( I know that everyone can use maven repository already )
>
>
> BTW, given the license discussions it seems unlikely a solution that
> includes all the jars in the same place will work. So the "repository"
> will be not only a storage for jars, but a set of tools to deal with
> downloading from different locations with different methods ( and mirror
> lists, etc ). Again - I think this part can only be apache-wide.
Sure, but let's not lose focus of what this is for. Distribution?
Building? A company/individual can set up their own repository of jars (we
all do) that they've accepted licenses for. The 'tools' should be able to
work with that set up, similar to how Maven does today.
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Blog: http://www.freeroller.net/page/dion/Weblog
Work: http://www.multitask.com.au
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Costin Manolache <cm...@yahoo.com>.
James Taylor wrote:
>> Maven is a nice tool - and I wish it good luck wherever it goes.
>> But if Maven charter will include the creation of a maven-only repository
>> - I hope at least some board members will vote -1.
>
> Hopefully we can keep these as seperate issues. Maven already has a
> repository which can be used by any project, but might be considered
> Maven (the project) only since access for uploading jars is currently
> restricted. This is the case only because we are still developing the
> administration application to open the repository up. The repository we
> have now is neccesary to continue development of maven (the tool), but
> nobody expects it to be the final solution.
>
> I would hate for this to prevent Maven's promotion to a top level
> project, which I think is a step in the right direction for the project,
> even if we still have a way to go, particularly with regard to a common
> repository.
I am talking about this in the context of the other discussions on
having an apache repository ( and use the apache mirroring system, etc).
Also in the context of having a common policy on how releases will
be distributed and structured - to fit well in such a repository. And
the set of tools and conventions that are needed to access the repository.
I agree moving maven to a top level ( apache or jakarta ) is the best step,
but the common repository must be common to apache, and not maven specific.
( I know that everyone can use maven repository already )
BTW, given the license discussions it seems unlikely a solution that
includes all the jars in the same place will work. So the "repository"
will be not only a storage for jars, but a set of tools to deal with
downloading from different locations with different methods ( and mirror
lists, etc ). Again - I think this part can only be apache-wide.
Costin
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by James Taylor <ja...@jamestaylor.org>.
> Maven is a nice tool - and I wish it good luck wherever it goes.
> But if Maven charter will include the creation of a maven-only repository -
> I hope at least some board members will vote -1.
Hopefully we can keep these as seperate issues. Maven already has a
repository which can be used by any project, but might be considered
Maven (the project) only since access for uploading jars is currently
restricted. This is the case only because we are still developing the
administration application to open the repository up. The repository we
have now is neccesary to continue development of maven (the tool), but
nobody expects it to be the final solution.
I would hate for this to prevent Maven's promotion to a top level
project, which I think is a step in the right direction for the project,
even if we still have a way to go, particularly with regard to a common
repository.
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Jason van Zyl <ja...@zenplex.com>.
On Fri, 2003-02-07 at 10:40, Jason van Zyl wrote:
> On Fri, 2003-02-07 at 10:18, Sam Ruby wrote:
> > Jason van Zyl wrote:
> > >
> > >>and can't or won't comply with Apache
> > >>policies,
> > >
> > > I started removing the Sun violations and I just sent you another
> > > message asking you to take on a maven repository admin role. Feel free
> > > to find the violations and remove them with a notification on the
> > > maven-user list. You are more license aware and can remove any problems
> > > faster then any of us can.
> >
> > I am willing to take on the maven repository admin role on one condition
> > - every other admin is removed. In short, I am willing to take on
> > responsibility for removing piss from the pool if and only if the
> > sources of this contamination are eliminated first.
>
> Then Dion will just keep working with you. I'm not removing the other
> Maven admins. I think they're pretty aware of the licensing issues now
> and I take responsibility for the majority of the violations. I'll also
> add something to the admin app to help as well.
In addition I don't think it's very wise having one person be
responsible for the repository. Having people in different timezones
being able to push artifacts up is helpful. As you're as fallible as
anyone else. Maybe you could initiate a sort of moderating mechanism for
pushing up artifacts until the admin app is finished.
--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Jason van Zyl wrote:
> On Fri, 2003-02-07 at 10:18, Sam Ruby wrote:
>
>>Jason van Zyl wrote:
>>
>>>>and can't or won't comply with Apache
>>>>policies,
>>>
>>>I started removing the Sun violations and I just sent you another
>>>message asking you to take on a maven repository admin role. Feel free
>>>to find the violations and remove them with a notification on the
>>>maven-user list. You are more license aware and can remove any problems
>>>faster then any of us can.
>>
>>I am willing to take on the maven repository admin role on one condition
>>- every other admin is removed. In short, I am willing to take on
>>responsibility for removing piss from the pool if and only if the
>>sources of this contamination are eliminated first.
>
> Then Dion will just keep working with you. I'm not removing the other
> Maven admins. I think they're pretty aware of the licensing issues now
> and I take responsibility for the majority of the violations. I'll also
> add something to the admin app to help as well.
OK, I accept this. I will send a note to ibiblio and request to be a
maven admin. I will caution you that I am probably not able to get
started on this until this weekend at the earliest.
- Sam Ruby
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Jason van Zyl <ja...@zenplex.com>.
On Fri, 2003-02-07 at 10:18, Sam Ruby wrote:
> Jason van Zyl wrote:
> >
> >>and can't or won't comply with Apache
> >>policies,
> >
> > I started removing the Sun violations and I just sent you another
> > message asking you to take on a maven repository admin role. Feel free
> > to find the violations and remove them with a notification on the
> > maven-user list. You are more license aware and can remove any problems
> > faster then any of us can.
>
> I am willing to take on the maven repository admin role on one condition
> - every other admin is removed. In short, I am willing to take on
> responsibility for removing piss from the pool if and only if the
> sources of this contamination are eliminated first.
Then Dion will just keep working with you. I'm not removing the other
Maven admins. I think they're pretty aware of the licensing issues now
and I take responsibility for the majority of the violations. I'll also
add something to the admin app to help as well.
--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
> Sam Ruby wrote:
>
>>I am willing to take on the maven repository admin role on one condition
>>- every other admin is removed. In short, I am willing to take on
>>responsibility for removing piss from the pool if and only if the
>>sources of this contamination are eliminated first.
>
> i realise you mentioned later that this was hyperbole, but i still
> think this remark is a bit over the top, sam.
Criticism accepted.
Jason and other admins associated with the Maven repository, please
accept my sincere apology. I previously indicated that I accept Jason's
statement that in his opinion the admins have gotten a fresh
appreciation for the value of not violating others licenses, and I now
wish to reaffirm this statement. Meanwhile, I intend to do my part to
clean up whatever mess remains.
- Sam Ruby
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
Sam Ruby wrote:
>
> I am willing to take on the maven repository admin role on one condition
> - every other admin is removed. In short, I am willing to take on
> responsibility for removing piss from the pool if and only if the
> sources of this contamination are eliminated first.
i realise you mentioned later that this was hyperbole, but i still
think this remark is a bit over the top, sam.
everybody: breathe in.. relax.. breathe out.. if you can't think
happy thoughts, at least consider the possibility that someone
with whom you're disagreeing is motivated as much out of frustration
and the desire to do the Right Thing(tm) as you are, and not out of
deliberate spite or malice. as was pointed out to me not too long
ago, you're addressing your remarks to a *person*, not a dumb screen;
a person with feelings, aspirations, and warts just as you possess.
give it the benefit of the doubt, or at least some slack; consider
that maybe it's having a bad day/week/month/year.
--
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Jason van Zyl wrote:
>
>>and can't or won't comply with Apache
>>policies,
>
> I started removing the Sun violations and I just sent you another
> message asking you to take on a maven repository admin role. Feel free
> to find the violations and remove them with a notification on the
> maven-user list. You are more license aware and can remove any problems
> faster then any of us can.
I am willing to take on the maven repository admin role on one condition
- every other admin is removed. In short, I am willing to take on
responsibility for removing piss from the pool if and only if the
sources of this contamination are eliminated first.
As you are undoubtably aware, dIon recently noted that an instance of
gump was placing jars on a non-ASF resource in a manner which was not
compliant with the license for that software. I can only presume that
given the circumstances there was a slight bit of glee in that discovery
by dIon, and I wouldn't begrude him for that.
What's important is that I immediately took responsibility for this,
instituted a policy that only jars that are explicitly marked are to be
published (i.e., step one is empty the pool), and marked an initial
subset as clearly OK. This is coupled with the knowledge that any
changes to these descriptors involve an e-mail to a mailing list where
every change is very actively reviewed.
I see that jsse has been removed from ibiblio. Good. It is
unfathonable to me that somebody could not only have missed the license,
but also missed the registration process which involved verfication of
your physical location and login and not known that it was improper to
place such a jar on a public location for everyone to download. I can
only presume that such an individual did this on other occasions, and
that there is no effective oversight of this repository.
- Sam Ruby
P.S. There is a bit of hyperbole in the statement I made above about
removing every other admin. Clearly dIon through his deeds and actions
has demonstrated responsibility in this matter.
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
Jason van Zyl wrote:
thanks for the detailed answer, jason. i have personal opinions
on the items you listed, but it's unclear to me that having
another country heard from would help the weather -- so i won't
weigh in with my thoughts unless someone asks me. the short form
is that i agree on one and disagree on the other -- but am always
open to being convinced.
--
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Jason van Zyl wrote:
>
>>i'd like to make sure that the term 'philosophical
>>visions' isn't being mistakenly applied to things motivated by
>>legally-required oversight.
>
> What I'm referring to by philosophical vision is Sam's notion of opening
> up everything to everybody and trying to create one big community. I'm
> not interested in that and don't want to be forced into that practice.
> In Maven for example there is no way on earth I would be comfortable
> opening up the committer pool to anyone. Sam feels differently and is
> willing to open up the committer pool on Gump to anyone. If he wants to
> do that great but I don't and neither do any of the other Maven
> committers. The same goes with the jakarta commons. I don't think it is
> that much of a burden to request access to a project from the people who
> have made it come into being. I don't know how the apache commons
> project works but I'm just not into the free-for-all.
Permit me to clarify what my philosophical vision is?
The board has been uncomfortable for quite a while with the notion of
subcommunities, particularly with respect to oversight. I have recently
come to the point where I fully appreciate the reasons behind this.
So what I have been trying to do is move to a model where one project
equals one community. Within Jakarta, this has two ramifications:
shedding self managing projects and deputizing more PMC members. The
latter has some interesting implications as it implies that subprojects
that choose to remain are required to accept the input of those PMC
members. If that results in the shedding of more projects, then
everything is working correctly according to my devious master plan.
This master plan has not be a secret. And for recalcitrant subprojects,
I have been known to give a little nudge. At no time have I stood in
the way of subprojects splitting out, in fact I have gone so far as to
actively support each proposal.
I see this as quite different than having a philosophical vision of
opening up everything to everyone. Ant and Avalon and James are now
fully autonomous, as are Cocoon and Web Services.
As to Gump, the CVS repository is only open to Apache committers. So
while Gump builds a lot of Apache related but not Apache hosted
projects, the people who are not Apache committers have to submit
patches or rely on the good will of others. I will say that opening it
up to all ASF committers has resulting in a significant increase in
participation and usefulness of the results, with no apparent downside
seen to date.
- Sam Ruby
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Jason van Zyl <ja...@zenplex.com>.
On Fri, 2003-02-07 at 12:50, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
> Jason van Zyl wrote:
> >
> > The second I feel that the environment here at Apache has eroded to
> > the point where this is not possible I will not hesitate to propose
> > movement of the code to an environment conducive to the production of
> > outstanding software. I believe the environment here has the
> > potential of becoming seriously eroded by recent policies of heavy
> > handed top-down control and the philosophical visions of a few being
> > forced on to the entire committer base.
>
> whoa, hang on there, tex! as potentially one of those top-down
> heavy handers, i'd like a bit of clarification on that last
> sentence.
The projects are no longer allowed to determine which external projects
they wish to bring into the fold. I brought OJB, BCEL, XmlRpc and
various other bits and pieces here to Apache without having to go
through an incubation process. That projects are no longer autonomous is
what I don't really like.
> i'd like to make sure that the term 'philosophical
> visions' isn't being mistakenly applied to things motivated by
> legally-required oversight.
Not at all. I take the blame for violating the licenses and I never
intended to cause the ASF any harm by the inclusion of various JARs in
the repository. I was fully willing to take the brunt of any
repercussions as I was fully expecting them from Sun. I didn't know that
the ASF would be liable and I have no problem respecting what we talked
about on the phone.
What I'm referring to by philosophical vision is Sam's notion of opening
up everything to everybody and trying to create one big community. I'm
not interested in that and don't want to be forced into that practice.
In Maven for example there is no way on earth I would be comfortable
opening up the committer pool to anyone. Sam feels differently and is
willing to open up the committer pool on Gump to anyone. If he wants to
do that great but I don't and neither do any of the other Maven
committers. The same goes with the jakarta commons. I don't think it is
that much of a burden to request access to a project from the people who
have made it come into being. I don't know how the apache commons
project works but I'm just not into the free-for-all.
> that is, making sure that apache
> stays legal is part of the board's *job*; it's not a matter of
> philosophy. and in many cases it isn't negociable; if the entire
> committer base voted unanimously to violate sun's licence, or
> the gpl, it wouldn't make it legal or right and the board would
> rightfully not permit the action to take place -- despite being
> overwhelmingly popular.
I have absolutely no problem with the legal oversight. I assume I had
kept the ASF in the clear and I assume repsonsibility for being
incorrect and am glad you made the call you did.
> so please, can you explain your last sentence in more detail, with
> circles and arrows so i know specifically what you think is heavy-
> handed, whose hands you mean, and what you think is an imposed
> minority philosophy? maybe you're right and that's all really
> happening.. or maybe there's just another communication glitch.
> email is really good at getting the words across; less so at
> making sure the *meaning* is correctly conveyed. :-) i want to
> understand so i can respond (or not) correctly.
>
> thanks!
--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
Jason van Zyl wrote:
>
> The second I feel that the environment here at Apache has eroded to
> the point where this is not possible I will not hesitate to propose
> movement of the code to an environment conducive to the production of
> outstanding software. I believe the environment here has the
> potential of becoming seriously eroded by recent policies of heavy
> handed top-down control and the philosophical visions of a few being
> forced on to the entire committer base.
whoa, hang on there, tex! as potentially one of those top-down
heavy handers, i'd like a bit of clarification on that last
sentence. i'd like to make sure that the term 'philosophical
visions' isn't being mistakenly applied to things motivated by
legally-required oversight. that is, making sure that apache
stays legal is part of the board's *job*; it's not a matter of
philosophy. and in many cases it isn't negociable; if the entire
committer base voted unanimously to violate sun's licence, or
the gpl, it wouldn't make it legal or right and the board would
rightfully not permit the action to take place -- despite being
overwhelmingly popular.
so please, can you explain your last sentence in more detail, with
circles and arrows so i know specifically what you think is heavy-
handed, whose hands you mean, and what you think is an imposed
minority philosophy? maybe you're right and that's all really
happening.. or maybe there's just another communication glitch.
email is really good at getting the words across; less so at
making sure the *meaning* is correctly conveyed. :-) i want to
understand so i can respond (or not) correctly.
thanks!
--
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by James Taylor <ja...@jamestaylor.org>.
> As far as L/GPL jars go that's not something Maven controls. Projects
> state their own dependencies and if an Apache project is violating
> Apache policies how is that Maven's problem? If it was an Ant build that
> used the <get/> task to link in an L/GPL jar is that Ant's problem?
> Obviously not.
So, assuming[1] for the moment that LGPL jars can not be imported into
ASF code:
Can we agree that
1. It is not allowed for Maven or any of its plugins which are
licensed to import (L)GPL code
2. Plugins distributed under a different license and distributed
from a non ASF location could have such dependencies without
creating difficulties for the ASF. For example, a checkstyle
plugin with the same license as checkstyle and hosted at
sourceforgot. (For any who do not know, plugin installation and
resolution in maven is a completely runtime activity)
3. Projects which use Maven can explicately declare a dependency of
(L)GPL code and maven can download the dependency artifacts and
build the project without causing difficulty for the ASF. (Maven
should be able to build projects which are themselves GPL right?
Ant certainly can).
Thanks,
James
.. [1]: Hopefully I am not the only person who disagrees with this
decision, but I understand if the ASF is not willing to take a legal
stand on the import == #include issue.
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
> The second I feel that the environment here at Apache has eroded to the
> point where this is not possible I will not hesitate to propose movement
> of the code to an environment conducive to the production of outstanding
> software. I believe the environment here has the potential of becoming
> seriously eroded by recent policies of heavy handed top-down control and
> the philosophical visions of a few being forced on to the entire
> committer base.
This part I agree with to a less strong degree, but not in the context
he's saying it. In this case I don't think there is any cause for this
complaint. "Remove illegal shavic" was not really that unreasonable
(and he did this). The LGPL thing is another story.
-Andy
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Jason van Zyl <ja...@zenplex.com>.
On Thu, 2003-02-06 at 16:45, Sam Ruby wrote:
> Jason, now let me ask you a direct question:
> if you don't want to work
> with the Apache infrastructure
I am first concerned with setting up the infrastructure that Maven
requires in order to satisfy the needs of people building projects.
L/GPL jars cannot be stored within the Apache infrastructure so right
now there is a mismatch. It would mean that anyone requiring L/GPL jars
would be hosed.
Ted Leung suggested a solution at ApacheCon that could be viable
solution which uses the PORTs methodology where the repository becomes a
set of pointers. This allows the storage of artifcacts anywhere but also
causes another problem for users where one bad pointer, or one bad
connection could fubar everything.
I would prefer to have the entire Maven repository mirrored in its
entirety in several places in the world. Right now ibiblio on its own
does not go down very often but other whole mirrors would be nice.
Ibiblio also doesn't have a problem storing commercial artifacts either.
I want the repository to become a whole repository. I want it primarily
for building projects but I would also like it be a place where people
can find any Java artifacts commercial or otherwise. Ibiblio doesn't
have a problem storing the Clover JAR for example.
So if Apache would let me store L/GPL jars, commercial artifacts and the
whole repository on their infrastructure then I'm all for using the
Apache infrastructure. I assumed this would not be possible but would be
willing to move the repository back to Apache hardware if this is
possible.
The infrastructure policies as far as I thought were incompatible with
the requirements of the Maven repository.
> and can't or won't comply with Apache
> policies,
I started removing the Sun violations and I just sent you another
message asking you to take on a maven repository admin role. Feel free
to find the violations and remove them with a notification on the
maven-user list. You are more license aware and can remove any problems
faster then any of us can.
As far as L/GPL jars go that's not something Maven controls. Projects
state their own dependencies and if an Apache project is violating
Apache policies how is that Maven's problem? If it was an Ant build that
used the <get/> task to link in an L/GPL jar is that Ant's problem?
Obviously not.
Maven can help identify license violations but it can't enforce them by
default without some additional checks added by individual projects. I
proposed a license element in the Maven POM so that tools can be made to
help identify problems.
> then why do you want Maven to be an Apache project?
The same reason I wrote Velocity, the same reason I whipped Turbine into
shape for its first release, the same reason I brought BCEL here, the
same reason I brought OJB here, the same reason I helped bring Lucene
here, the same reason I moderate 8 mailing lists, and the same reason I
am a cvs admin. I believe that Apache is a place where some of the best
software in the world can be created and I will put forth as much spare
time and energy as I can do help make good software.
The second I feel that the environment here at Apache has eroded to the
point where this is not possible I will not hesitate to propose movement
of the code to an environment conducive to the production of outstanding
software. I believe the environment here has the potential of becoming
seriously eroded by recent policies of heavy handed top-down control and
the philosophical visions of a few being forced on to the entire
committer base.
> - Sam Ruby
>
>
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--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Jason van Zyl wrote:
>
>>BTW, for the record, was the creation of the jakarta-turbine-maven
>>resources (CVS and lists) approved by this PMC?
>
> Yes, they were. The creation of the lists didn't get by Sam. It was
> Costin who argued that each project should be allowed to do what it
> likes.
Ack. For all I remember, I may have even helped setting them up. I
don't want to specifically address point by point the parts of this
email I have snipped, but I have no problem with duplication of effort -
but I have to note that this goes both ways.
Maven, Ruper, and Gump target similar goals. They have different
implementations and the merits (pluses AND minuses) of each can be debated.
Spreading them out across separate projects simply because some people
don't want to work with one another is not right.
Jason, now let me ask you a direct question: if you don't want to work
with the Apache infrastructure and can't or won't comply with Apache
policies, then why do you want Maven to be an Apache project?
- Sam Ruby
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Costin Manolache <cm...@yahoo.com>.
Jason van Zyl wrote:
> Gump _never_ used an object model, never. Gump was targeted at overall
> control by a small set of people (and it's still that way, no one
> outside of Jakarta/XML barely knows what it is) to build sources against
> CVS. That's not what Maven was ever targeted at, ever. Maven uses Ant
> but Ant has no concept of an object model either. I definitely admit to
> not wanting to use the Gump descriptor and that's proven to be a good
> thing. If you call Maven a duplicate of a tool that generates 30k line
> shell scripts then do as you please.
So what ?
The point is that setting a standard for the repository and descriptor
should be apache wide. What is used to implement it is completely
irrelevant. The descriptor and repositories consist of files and
protocols - that can be implemented in gump, ant or plain java.
> _before I ever knew of Maven_ That's fine. Don't presume to know how
> long I've been thinking of Maven before the first line of code landed
> anywhere.
This is not a contest of who tought first - you're not getting a pattent.
People have been thinking about CPAN/CJAN and build tools for a long
time, and what matters is finding a common solution that is independent
of a particular build tool.
> Give me a break. Again like a pluggable functionality is a radical new
> idea. Your plugins are ant build files. So you came out first with a way
Like a CPAN repository or dependency tracking is a radical new idea...
> I don't care what you do or do not do. I didn't want any part of Gump
> code, 30k lines shells scripts, a DOM model or a big heap of ant build
> files. So yes, I am the one who advocated not working together but I
> certainly wasn't the only one who felt like that.
There are people who don't care of Maven code too - I use Ant and
I'm happy with it. I care about a standard descriptor, layout and repository
- and that standard can only happen if it is accepted by all tools and
projects.
Costin
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Jason van Zyl <ja...@zenplex.com>.
On Thu, 2003-02-06 at 15:39, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> I'm moving this to PMC.
>
> Jason van Zyl wrote, On 06/02/2003 19.15:
> > On Thu, 2003-02-06 at 12:53, Costin Manolache wrote:
> ...
> > I'm not stopping anyone from participating. Nicola jumps out of nowhere,
> > starts a project that completely replicates what's already been done and
> > I'm supposed to jump for joy and clamour to be a part of?
>
> You are saying false things.
>
> Maven started out of Gump. It duplicated Gump, Ant, Alexandria... who is
> duplicating who?
Gump _never_ used an object model, never. Gump was targeted at overall
control by a small set of people (and it's still that way, no one
outside of Jakarta/XML barely knows what it is) to build sources against
CVS. That's not what Maven was ever targeted at, ever. Maven uses Ant
but Ant has no concept of an object model either. I definitely admit to
not wanting to use the Gump descriptor and that's proven to be a good
thing. If you call Maven a duplicate of a tool that generates 30k line
shell scripts then do as you please.
> I have started the project way before I ever knew of Maven.
_before I ever knew of Maven_ That's fine. Don't presume to know how
long I've been thinking of Maven before the first line of code landed
anywhere.
> And I also
> asked to merge efforts, at a point when we were downloading plugins, and
> Maven didn't even have a single plugin because it haven't even decided
> to have them.
Give me a break. Again like a pluggable functionality is a radical new
idea. Your plugins are ant build files. So you came out first with a way
to pull in ant build files. Woo hoo! So you're saying we stole your idea
to have pluggable capabilities because you could import and an Ant file.
Again, please spare me the laughable nature of what you're saying.
> All these are in the mailing lists, and in CVS history, as well as
> comments in public IRC channels on werken, where you and others clearly
> deride me. This is not what I would expect from Apache members, and
> certainly it's not what you have gotten from me.
No, we only got from you initially the accusation that we stole your
miraculous ideas. That's where it started and that's why I refuse to
cooperate with you. You act like the Pontiff of Opensource sprouting up
little projects here and there and then when people don't want to
'merge' or 'cooperate' you have little hissy fits. JCharts (or
JFreeCharts or whatever) ring any bells? That you went and started
another graph package because the author of the package didn't want any
part of krysalis. I feel that's what you do with everything, start some
project under the guise of community because no one really wants to work
with you.
> I have worked with all these projects so that we did not duplicate. The
> *only* project that rejected me was Maven. And rejected me badly.
I don't care what you do or do not do. I didn't want any part of Gump
code, 30k lines shells scripts, a DOM model or a big heap of ant build
files. So yes, I am the one who advocated not working together but I
certainly wasn't the only one who felt like that.
> > I am not stopping anyone from participating. Nicola once argued to keep
> > JARs in CVS and now all of a sudden it's a fabulous idea not to store
> > the JARs in CVS. What a revelation!
>
> In fact Centipede can be easily used by keeping jars in CVS. I still
> think that in many cases it's a necessity.
Of course it is. I'm not arguing the fact that this is sometimes
necessary what is that it probably didn't even occur to you (and seemed
like that to me with the mountain of JARs in the krysalis repository at
one point in time) until it was a function of Maven. Of course this is
not a new and radical idea either. I just dislike the up and starting of
a new project. We rejected a merger with your code, we didn't reject
your input or your ideas. You've never been able to distinguish those
two things.
> I haven't changed my mind on
> this, although I *do* change my mind when I see compelling reasons, as
> any reasonable person does.
>
> ...
> > It's not a Maven only repository. We built the whole infrastructure and
> > did _all_ the work but anyone can use it if they so desire. I choose not
> > to participate with certain people and they choose not to pariticipate
> > where every last single stroke of effort has been made to set up the
> > repository. Don't start twisting reality.
>
> You are the one twisting reality, Jason.
>
> I have sent you more than a mail privately telling you to partecipate in
> the discussions on infrastructure about mirroring, so that the Maven
> repository would be part of that effort, and lead the way.
I'm not interested in an Apache only repository and I'm not interested
in a repository for anything other than artifacts related to Java
development. I am going to find what suits Java developers first and
we're getting the feedback we need from thousands of people using maven.
I am leading the way. What do you think Maven is?
> We were using
> JJAR, but then decided to move to the Maven repository so we were not
> duplicating stuff. Is this bad?
I've told you several times that JJAR exists purely because I asked for
it. I know what it is, what it does and why by itself it's not
sufficient. It was an experiment by Geir, he left it and I moved on. It
was dead for a long time and you picked it up against my warning. You
are free to do what you like and you can use JJAR. I disagreed and don't
want to use it and neither do any of the other Maven developers.
> Do I necessarily have to use Maven not to upset you?
> Am I wrong because I tried to follow the rules and develop centipede at
> Sourceforge?
Develop what you like and how you like it. I do not care what you do but
if someone asks me my opinion of the work I'm sure as hell going to give
it to them.
> BTW, for the record, was the creation of the jakarta-turbine-maven
> resources (CVS and lists) approved by this PMC?
Yes, they were. The creation of the lists didn't get by Sam. It was
Costin who argued that each project should be allowed to do what it
likes.
> I find it peculiar that
> we go so many levels deep Apache-Jakarta-Turbine-Maven.
>
> I am very, very sad and actually concerned about your behaviour.
--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Jason van Zyl <ja...@zenplex.com>.
On Thu, 2003-02-06 at 12:53, Costin Manolache wrote:
> Sam Ruby wrote:
>
> > Those that care to participate, please indicate your interest by posting
> > to the turbine-maven-dev@jakarta.apache.org mailing list.
>
> It's up to the board members to decide - but as with Nicola's proposal, I'll
> strongly opose ( by not participating :-) a repository/CJAN/etc project that
> is not open to all apache committers ( like gump for example ).
Who said I was stopping anyone from participating in how the Maven
repository is structured, or used or otherwise administered?
I'm not stopping anyone from participating. Nicola jumps out of nowhere,
starts a project that completely replicates what's already been done and
I'm supposed to jump for joy and clamour to be a part of?
I am not stopping anyone from participating. Nicola once argued to keep
JARs in CVS and now all of a sudden it's a fabulous idea not to store
the JARs in CVS. What a revelation!
The repository is accessible via HTTP, no one is being barred. The
design and structure of the repository is discussed on maven-dev but
that doesn't mean the repository can only be used by Maven to build.
Nicola has already stated they are using the repository.
> Maven is a nice tool - and I wish it good luck wherever it goes.
> But if Maven charter will include the creation of a maven-only repository -
> I hope at least some board members will vote -1.
It's not a Maven only repository. We built the whole infrastructure and
did _all_ the work but anyone can use it if they so desire. I choose not
to participate with certain people and they choose not to pariticipate
where every last single stroke of effort has been made to set up the
repository. Don't start twisting reality.
Didn't Nicola say they were already using the Maven repository. What is
stopping anyone from using the repository? It's not like we're using a
client to download the artifacts and blocking non-maven clients.
> Costin
>
>
> >
> > -------- Original Message --------
> > Subject: Maven as a top-level apache project
> > Date: 06 Feb 2003 12:20:32 -0500
> > From: Jason van Zyl <ja...@zenplex.com>
> > Reply-To: "Turbine Maven Developers List"
> > <tu...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > Organization: Zenplex
> > Newsgroups: gmane.comp.jakarta.turbine.maven.devel
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > As I've just gone through the process of getting db.apache.org of the
> > ground I would now like to attempt to do the same for Maven. A top-level
> > project could house Maven and ancillary tools like Continuum and an SCM
> > package and various IDE integration that are popping up.
> >
> > I can easily mock up a site as I'll just borrow the tools I made for
> > db.apache.org.
> >
> > There is a board meeting in two weeks so if the developers are in
> > agreement we'll try and go straight to the top.
> >
>
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
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--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by James Strachan <ja...@yahoo.co.uk>.
From: "Costin Manolache" <cm...@yahoo.com>
> Maven is a nice tool - and I wish it good luck wherever it goes.
> But if Maven charter will include the creation of a maven-only
repository -
> I hope at least some board members will vote -1.
I don't see that ever happening. Already the Maven repository can be used by
Maven itself, the generated Ant builds and, by the sounds of things,
Centipede too
You can even use your web browsers to surf & download jars yourself.
e.g. surf this...
http://www.ibiblio.org/maven/
James
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Costin Manolache <cm...@yahoo.com>.
dion@multitask.com.au wrote:
> Costin,
>
> what's a 'maven-only' repository?
There are at least 3 build tools in apache: ant is one of them,
gump and maven ( there are more actually ). There are many
projects whose releases will be in such a repositroy. The policy
and the format of the descriptors must be set in an apache-wide
project.
I know that the files and descriptors on ibiblio are
available to everyone. Just like sourceforge downloads and
mirrors are available to everyone.
My point is that an apache repository and the descriptors and
layouts that will be used in apache need to be a project that
is common to all build tools and with a bigger community than
Maven has ( i.e. including Nicola and Sam Ruby and ant people
- and much more ).
Costin
> --
> dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
> Blog: http://www.freeroller.net/page/dion/Weblog
> Work: http://www.multitask.com.au
>
>
> news <ne...@main.gmane.org> wrote on 07/02/2003 04:53:05 AM:
>
>> Sam Ruby wrote:
>>
>> > Those that care to participate, please indicate your interest by
> posting
>> > to the turbine-maven-dev@jakarta.apache.org mailing list.
>>
>> It's up to the board members to decide - but as with Nicola's proposal,
> I'll
>> strongly opose ( by not participating :-) a repository/CJAN/etc project
> that
>> is not open to all apache committers ( like gump for example ).
>>
>> Maven is a nice tool - and I wish it good luck wherever it goes.
>> But if Maven charter will include the creation of a maven-only
> repository -
>> I hope at least some board members will vote -1.
>>
>> Costin
>>
>>
>> >
>> > -------- Original Message --------
>> > Subject: Maven as a top-level apache project
>> > Date: 06 Feb 2003 12:20:32 -0500
>> > From: Jason van Zyl <ja...@zenplex.com>
>> > Reply-To: "Turbine Maven Developers List"
>> > <tu...@jakarta.apache.org>
>> > Organization: Zenplex
>> > Newsgroups: gmane.comp.jakarta.turbine.maven.devel
>> >
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > As I've just gone through the process of getting db.apache.org of the
>> > ground I would now like to attempt to do the same for Maven. A
> top-level
>> > project could house Maven and ancillary tools like Continuum and an
> SCM
>> > package and various IDE integration that are popping up.
>> >
>> > I can easily mock up a site as I'll just borrow the tools I made for
>> > db.apache.org.
>> >
>> > There is a board meeting in two weeks so if the developers are in
>> > agreement we'll try and go straight to the top.
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>
>> ForwardSourceID:NT000ADF56
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by di...@multitask.com.au.
Costin,
what's a 'maven-only' repository?
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Blog: http://www.freeroller.net/page/dion/Weblog
Work: http://www.multitask.com.au
news <ne...@main.gmane.org> wrote on 07/02/2003 04:53:05 AM:
> Sam Ruby wrote:
>
> > Those that care to participate, please indicate your interest by
posting
> > to the turbine-maven-dev@jakarta.apache.org mailing list.
>
> It's up to the board members to decide - but as with Nicola's proposal,
I'll
> strongly opose ( by not participating :-) a repository/CJAN/etc project
that
> is not open to all apache committers ( like gump for example ).
>
> Maven is a nice tool - and I wish it good luck wherever it goes.
> But if Maven charter will include the creation of a maven-only
repository -
> I hope at least some board members will vote -1.
>
> Costin
>
>
> >
> > -------- Original Message --------
> > Subject: Maven as a top-level apache project
> > Date: 06 Feb 2003 12:20:32 -0500
> > From: Jason van Zyl <ja...@zenplex.com>
> > Reply-To: "Turbine Maven Developers List"
> > <tu...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > Organization: Zenplex
> > Newsgroups: gmane.comp.jakarta.turbine.maven.devel
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > As I've just gone through the process of getting db.apache.org of the
> > ground I would now like to attempt to do the same for Maven. A
top-level
> > project could house Maven and ancillary tools like Continuum and an
SCM
> > package and various IDE integration that are popping up.
> >
> > I can easily mock up a site as I'll just borrow the tools I made for
> > db.apache.org.
> >
> > There is a board meeting in two weeks so if the developers are in
> > agreement we'll try and go straight to the top.
> >
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
> ForwardSourceID:NT000ADF56
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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]
Posted by Costin Manolache <cm...@yahoo.com>.
Sam Ruby wrote:
> Those that care to participate, please indicate your interest by posting
> to the turbine-maven-dev@jakarta.apache.org mailing list.
It's up to the board members to decide - but as with Nicola's proposal, I'll
strongly opose ( by not participating :-) a repository/CJAN/etc project that
is not open to all apache committers ( like gump for example ).
Maven is a nice tool - and I wish it good luck wherever it goes.
But if Maven charter will include the creation of a maven-only repository -
I hope at least some board members will vote -1.
Costin
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Maven as a top-level apache project
> Date: 06 Feb 2003 12:20:32 -0500
> From: Jason van Zyl <ja...@zenplex.com>
> Reply-To: "Turbine Maven Developers List"
> <tu...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Organization: Zenplex
> Newsgroups: gmane.comp.jakarta.turbine.maven.devel
>
> Hi,
>
> As I've just gone through the process of getting db.apache.org of the
> ground I would now like to attempt to do the same for Maven. A top-level
> project could house Maven and ancillary tools like Continuum and an SCM
> package and various IDE integration that are popping up.
>
> I can easily mock up a site as I'll just borrow the tools I made for
> db.apache.org.
>
> There is a board meeting in two weeks so if the developers are in
> agreement we'll try and go straight to the top.
>
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