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Posted to dev@devicemap.apache.org by Reza Naghibi <re...@apache.org> on 2015/04/19 17:42:04 UTC
Leaving DeviceMap
Hey, so this is notice that I will be leaving DeviceMap. I will be stepping
down from the PMC and will no longer continue my duties or contribute to
this project.
While there have been a few successful aspects during my time at DeviceMap,
as a whole, my experience here has not been good. The majority of my
problems stem from the constant arguing, unprofessionalism, and personal
attacks from my fellow PMC chair, Werner. Instead of focusing on writing
and releasing software, all my time and energy is spent on how to manage
Werner. This is not what I signed up for. Sorry to be so blunt here, but I
just want to make it clear as to why I am leaving.
I could stick around for another year or so and continue with the constant
arguments, possibly more waves of personal attacks, get into a version war
with the legacy ODDR client, and deal with the constant little reminders of
how ODDR client got everything right. All of this while trying to push
forward with 2.0. I simply choose to walk away.
As for 2.0, I highly encourage this project to pursue 2.0 and evolve, if
they wish. At some point in the future, I will likely branch and continue
my proposed 2.0 work under a different space, name, and version.
Thanks,
Reza Naghibi
Re: Leaving DeviceMap
Posted by Volkan Yazıcı <vo...@gmail.com>.
That's a great loss for the project, I am really sorry to hear that.
I hope you would still actively participate in the technical discussions,
which is something that I will definitely be looking for. After all, this
was not your first User-Agent parser implementation and I believe
we still have a lot to learn from you.
Best of luck!
On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Reza Naghibi <re...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hey, so this is notice that I will be leaving DeviceMap. I will be stepping
> down from the PMC and will no longer continue my duties or contribute to
> this project.
>
> While there have been a few successful aspects during my time at DeviceMap,
> as a whole, my experience here has not been good. The majority of my
> problems stem from the constant arguing, unprofessionalism, and personal
> attacks from my fellow PMC chair, Werner. Instead of focusing on writing
> and releasing software, all my time and energy is spent on how to manage
> Werner. This is not what I signed up for. Sorry to be so blunt here, but I
> just want to make it clear as to why I am leaving.
>
> I could stick around for another year or so and continue with the constant
> arguments, possibly more waves of personal attacks, get into a version war
> with the legacy ODDR client, and deal with the constant little reminders of
> how ODDR client got everything right. All of this while trying to push
> forward with 2.0. I simply choose to walk away.
>
> As for 2.0, I highly encourage this project to pursue 2.0 and evolve, if
> they wish. At some point in the future, I will likely branch and continue
> my proposed 2.0 work under a different space, name, and version.
>
> Thanks,
> Reza Naghibi
>
Re: Leaving DeviceMap
Posted by Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>.
A branch (whether 2.x) as you already suggested would simply do.
"perimeter" e.g. having mainly one person contributing to a piece of the
codebase, well, BrowserMap is a good example. There's practically nobody
other than Radu ever touching that. I was hoping to get some odd things or
redundancies like /trunk/project/trunk out of the repository, but it turned
out the way GitHub and Apache SVN are synced there caused this weird
naming. So I rolled back the changes. No fighting or struggeling in that
case, which shows, it mainly comes from just one team member (and it's not
me) where things get less professional and more polemic.
While Eberhard has a similar role as Radu on the .NET side, I used my
recent .NET responsibilities at current clients to test this client and
found bugs or issues. Which are now fixed. Also no false pride or shouting
from Eberhard about these adjustments or him being upset about the first
time people at a conference also saw "his" client.
While it may be not so trivial on the .NET side, for Java and other
languages (just see the Ruby example) having more than one CI instance to
verify each branch should do.
And since DeviceMap isn't the only project I am involved in (despite many
different ideas, just look at Tamaya-dev, you won't find a single case
where anybody there including myself would insult others or rather take
technically sound critique as a personal insult all the time;-) it
introduced a "Sandbox" for new ideas and integrating with other APIs and
frameworks: https://github.com/apache/incubator-tamaya/tree/master/sandbox
That or the "modules" concept also used by DeltaSpike and other projects
would make it relatively easy to separate the modules also by who's
responsible. As long as it builds on a CI server. Tamaya has at least 2
separate branch builds by now, and projects like DeltaSpike have several
dozens. Including some that build only examples.
Cheers,
Werner
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 1:51 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bdelacretaz@apache.org
> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 1:44 PM, Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > ...I don't see a problem to have him as committer/PMC member, should he
> decide
> > to stay, but e.g. Bertrand until someone really qualified should
> volunteer
> > again was clearly a better choice to act as PMC chair....
>
> If that helps, I am open to be interim PMC chair if Reza agrees to
> stay and try my "perimeter" experiment.
>
> -Bertrand (replying to the on-topic parts)
>
Re: Leaving DeviceMap
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi,
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 1:44 PM, Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...I don't see a problem to have him as committer/PMC member, should he decide
> to stay, but e.g. Bertrand until someone really qualified should volunteer
> again was clearly a better choice to act as PMC chair....
If that helps, I am open to be interim PMC chair if Reza agrees to
stay and try my "perimeter" experiment.
-Bertrand (replying to the on-topic parts)
Re: Leaving DeviceMap
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Reza Naghibi <re...@apache.org> wrote:
>> Werner wrote:
>>> Sorry but it was me who managed not only the graduation, but everything
> else.
>
> I really need to chime in here otherwise people might believe these
> statements for truth....
I'm not worried, I don't see how anyone could believe that someone has
done "everything else" here ;-)
-Bertrand
Re: Leaving DeviceMap
Posted by Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>.
Reza/all,
Sounds reasonable. As Bertrand offered to help with PMC chair duties as
suggested it'll take some administrative burden of you and leave room for
actual development.
I assume "branch" means /branches/
<https://svn.apache.org/viewvc/devicemap/branches/> there is an initial
draft under "2.0" already.
Where you refer to "oddr", where's the "data" in this equation?
Do you mean a combination of data(1.x)+W3C implementation+matching examples?
Everything that currently runs aside from BrowserMap relies on 1.x data.
"browsermap" does in fact show, how a separate folder (even with some
iterative structure, due how it was synced with GitHub) can work. And as
long as dependencies are not corrupted that should not be a problem to
separate the W3C compliant parts from others. OpenDDR stopped the API at
1.0.0.27, hence the first official release here is meant to be 1.1.0, to
show it evolved from a 1.0.x of OpenDDR Java client. So a 0.x "sanctuary"
does not sound appropriate. The major versions of data and clients should
also match. After all data is the "crown jewel" of the project.
Maven separates packages so you already have something like
"org.apache.devicemap:devicemap-client" or
"org.apache.devicemap:devicemap-simpleddr".
Note, the "-client" had releases up to 1.1 so far, on the other hand
browsermap is at 1.4 already, and I guess you don't see any reason to
"grant browsermap the 0.4 version" now all of a sudden?;-)
Except browsermap the major version number should suggest which version of
the data it is meant for. So a client/classifier that evolves or fixes
some bugs under the 1.0 branch ideally should not step to 2.x but stick to
a version range of 1.2 or above.
There are no strong feelings anywhere above the OpenDDR "freeze" but to
allow it (should it publish maintenance releases) I prefer a 1.1.x version
space (we don''t normally use 4 digits, so strictly speaking it offers
room, as long as it's a 1.x release since 1.x is also the matching data
version)
If we separated the codebase as suggested, it probably makes more sense to
keep "examples" together with subsequent modules.
See "browsermap" a side-effect could be that some of these could get a Git
mirror like Browsermap, too.
I'm not too biased about some tags, at least those under /tags/data do
however document how things were synced up from ODDR earlier. Neither a
strict /branches or /tags on a top level is practiced e.g. by Tomcat:
http://tomcat.apache.org/svn.html It also does not use an extra
/tags/releases level btw. nor do many other projects e.g. Ivy (just another
example: https://svn.apache.org/viewvc/ant/ivy/core/tags/) Even "-RC" tags
are usually kept, so I don't see a particular harm in any tags we got so
far. They're a snapshot and frozen.
There's no real difference between what Tomcat calls "archive" and our
"contrib" section. This is the only real "attic" as of now, the name is not
too important, but IMHO we should leave things there like other projects do.
Cheers,
Werner
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 7:30 PM, Reza Naghibi <re...@apache.org> wrote:
> Bertrand, PMC members, et al,
>
> So I had a few out of thread conversations with people and it turns out a
> these people are very committed to DeviceMap and by leaving this project I
> would be kind of letting them down. This was never my intention and so Im
> willing to take Bertrands offer and apply some kind of code partition
> policy.
>
> So here is what I would be willing to work with. I will explain the
> standard SVN layout with an addition to accommodate the ODDR branch:
>
> https://svn.apache.org/viewvc/devicemap/
>
> *tags* - this folder is for Apache DeviceMap released snapshots and is
> obviously used for archiving and branch sourcing purposes. Any software
> that is unreleased under Apache rules will be cleared out.
>
> *branch* - this folder is open to anyone to work on new releases or
> experimental features. Just make sure to put your code in a proper sub
> directory.
>
> *trunk* - this folder is only for development of currently released
> software. If said software is unreleased, then it needs to go into branch
> or the ODDR folder. *This will require significant cleanup since we have
> the marriage of 1.x and ODDR in here. I repeat, unreleased code and their
> dependencies, specifically ODDR will be moved into
> their appropriate folders.* When we release a major version, the release
> branch and move to trunk and the prior major version will switch to branch
> (and tags will be made). This way we can support old and new but trunk will
> always be our release head.
>
> *oddr* - we need a separate repo to house ODDR artifacts. Adding a folder
> to our SVN root should be enough to accommodate ODDR dev.
>
> The other request I have is agreement on an ODDR name space and version.
> *Had
> I anticipated this situation, our 1.x release would be 2.x, the proposed
> 2.x would be 3.x, and ODDR could hold the 1.x version. This was a mistake
> and that ship has sailed.* My concern is that I dont want currently
> released software to be up-revved in repositories and cause package
> confusion since we are all sharing the DeviceMap name space. So we need to
> properly name and version ODDR so if it does get released and maintained,
> it can be done without causing confusion with regard to the 1.x, 2.x, 3.x
> release path we seem to be going down. I would be willing to give ODDR the
> 0.x version space since thats a pretty standard practice. Im open to ideas
> here.
>
> Since we dont really have the ability for grainular folder access, I think
> we have to ask that if you did not create or work on a particular code
> base, ask permission before committing otherwise you can expect your code
> to be reverted by the maintainers.
>
> Finally, any sort of marketing or presentations must clearly state the
> product (codebase) and version as to not cause product and version
> confusion.
>
> If we can all come to agreement here and then implement the SVN changes,
> then I would feel very comfortable that we can move this project forward in
> a more partitioned fashion.
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 12:51 PM, Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > It is frustrating to see Reza's personal attacks or lies constantly are
> > taken for granted, and simple facts, e.g. stating nothing but facts (I
> > don't have the time to dig up all the threads from the archive, but you
> all
> > know about his attempt to destroy pieces of code from the repository and
> > also the reasons, so no need to repeat it once again)
> > called attacks.
> >
> > So much for this thread.
> >
> > It's just off-topic now, too;-)
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 6:44 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> > bdelacretaz@apache.org
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 6:16 PM, Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > ...Sorry but you know the one who insists to "kill" and wipe out
> > > everything he
> > > > does not like is Reza....
> > >
> > > I have already asked you to stop the personal attacks, in a different
> > > thread.
> > >
> > > I consider the above your second violation of this rule today.
> > >
> > > -Bertrand
> > >
> >
>
Re: Leaving DeviceMap
Posted by Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>.
Bertrand,
Please do.
I trust you take e.g. the fact into consideration that if the W3C "wrapper"
Reza started is not meant to be trashed, folders like "lib" are shared and
I made them reusable for a good reason (also to minimize the places where
we have to use that carefully drafted notice file;-)
A separate "w3cddr", "simpleddr" or whatever you may name it module would
force duplication and maintenance of the special Maven library plugin, just
to mention one side-effect.
Nobody wants to waste or duplicate efforts, so whenever a W3C wrapper was
compliant to the level W3C expects and could act as drop-in replacement for
those apps and demos that use the W3C API, other variants may simply be
"archived" whatever folder you suggest for that (currently it's "contrib"
but maybe there's a better name) The same happened to "test-data" which I
archived there after everyone confirmed, nobody was using it any more. Yet
Eberhard's 100k or so UA strings may still be of interest so they should
not be deleted either;-)
As Browsermap showed a combination of Git and SVN works to some extent, but
I'm actually more in favor of a first class Git repo.
DeltaSpike (Apache doesn't seem to have such deep level of documentation
yet) shows extremely well how Git should be used:
http://deltaspike.apache.org/documentation/source.html
and in more detail
https://deltaspike.apache.org/suggested-git-workflows.html
That alone gives each responsible person or sub-team freedom, control and
responsibility to merge it back into their "stable" or "master" branch.
If followed by everyone a module-owner is always the one who has to merge
it, or (should Apache support that already?) one may also put Gerrit on top
where the merge is only sanctioned if a certain number of committers/PMC
members vote for the pull-request (a bit like micro-voting if you want,
some ecosystems like Eclipse use it in nearly every project especially the
larger ones;-)
I'll start a thread about Git since the two are not directly related. We
likely won't move everything, see many other Apache projects that did so
for their new development or the entire repository.
Werner
On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 9:27 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bdelacretaz@apache.org
> wrote:
> Hi Reza,
>
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 7:30 PM, Reza Naghibi <re...@apache.org> wrote:
> > ...So I had a few out of thread conversations with people and it turns
> out a
> > these people are very committed to DeviceMap and by leaving this project
> I
> > would be kind of letting them down. This was never my intention and so Im
> > willing to take Bertrands offer and apply some kind of code partition
> > policy....
>
> Fantastic, thanks very much!
>
> I have a slightly different proposal for the svn tree, will start a
> new thread about that.
>
> -Bertrand
>
Re: Leaving DeviceMap
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi Reza,
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 7:30 PM, Reza Naghibi <re...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...So I had a few out of thread conversations with people and it turns out a
> these people are very committed to DeviceMap and by leaving this project I
> would be kind of letting them down. This was never my intention and so Im
> willing to take Bertrands offer and apply some kind of code partition
> policy....
Fantastic, thanks very much!
I have a slightly different proposal for the svn tree, will start a
new thread about that.
-Bertrand
Re: Leaving DeviceMap
Posted by Reza Naghibi <re...@apache.org>.
Bertrand, PMC members, et al,
So I had a few out of thread conversations with people and it turns out a
these people are very committed to DeviceMap and by leaving this project I
would be kind of letting them down. This was never my intention and so Im
willing to take Bertrands offer and apply some kind of code partition
policy.
So here is what I would be willing to work with. I will explain the
standard SVN layout with an addition to accommodate the ODDR branch:
https://svn.apache.org/viewvc/devicemap/
*tags* - this folder is for Apache DeviceMap released snapshots and is
obviously used for archiving and branch sourcing purposes. Any software
that is unreleased under Apache rules will be cleared out.
*branch* - this folder is open to anyone to work on new releases or
experimental features. Just make sure to put your code in a proper sub
directory.
*trunk* - this folder is only for development of currently released
software. If said software is unreleased, then it needs to go into branch
or the ODDR folder. *This will require significant cleanup since we have
the marriage of 1.x and ODDR in here. I repeat, unreleased code and their
dependencies, specifically ODDR will be moved into
their appropriate folders.* When we release a major version, the release
branch and move to trunk and the prior major version will switch to branch
(and tags will be made). This way we can support old and new but trunk will
always be our release head.
*oddr* - we need a separate repo to house ODDR artifacts. Adding a folder
to our SVN root should be enough to accommodate ODDR dev.
The other request I have is agreement on an ODDR name space and version. *Had
I anticipated this situation, our 1.x release would be 2.x, the proposed
2.x would be 3.x, and ODDR could hold the 1.x version. This was a mistake
and that ship has sailed.* My concern is that I dont want currently
released software to be up-revved in repositories and cause package
confusion since we are all sharing the DeviceMap name space. So we need to
properly name and version ODDR so if it does get released and maintained,
it can be done without causing confusion with regard to the 1.x, 2.x, 3.x
release path we seem to be going down. I would be willing to give ODDR the
0.x version space since thats a pretty standard practice. Im open to ideas
here.
Since we dont really have the ability for grainular folder access, I think
we have to ask that if you did not create or work on a particular code
base, ask permission before committing otherwise you can expect your code
to be reverted by the maintainers.
Finally, any sort of marketing or presentations must clearly state the
product (codebase) and version as to not cause product and version
confusion.
If we can all come to agreement here and then implement the SVN changes,
then I would feel very comfortable that we can move this project forward in
a more partitioned fashion.
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 12:51 PM, Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It is frustrating to see Reza's personal attacks or lies constantly are
> taken for granted, and simple facts, e.g. stating nothing but facts (I
> don't have the time to dig up all the threads from the archive, but you all
> know about his attempt to destroy pieces of code from the repository and
> also the reasons, so no need to repeat it once again)
> called attacks.
>
> So much for this thread.
>
> It's just off-topic now, too;-)
>
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 6:44 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> bdelacretaz@apache.org
> > wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 6:16 PM, Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > ...Sorry but you know the one who insists to "kill" and wipe out
> > everything he
> > > does not like is Reza....
> >
> > I have already asked you to stop the personal attacks, in a different
> > thread.
> >
> > I consider the above your second violation of this rule today.
> >
> > -Bertrand
> >
>
Re: Leaving DeviceMap
Posted by Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>.
It is frustrating to see Reza's personal attacks or lies constantly are
taken for granted, and simple facts, e.g. stating nothing but facts (I
don't have the time to dig up all the threads from the archive, but you all
know about his attempt to destroy pieces of code from the repository and
also the reasons, so no need to repeat it once again)
called attacks.
So much for this thread.
It's just off-topic now, too;-)
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 6:44 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bdelacretaz@apache.org
> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 6:16 PM, Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > ...Sorry but you know the one who insists to "kill" and wipe out
> everything he
> > does not like is Reza....
>
> I have already asked you to stop the personal attacks, in a different
> thread.
>
> I consider the above your second violation of this rule today.
>
> -Bertrand
>
Re: Leaving DeviceMap
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 6:16 PM, Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...Sorry but you know the one who insists to "kill" and wipe out everything he
> does not like is Reza....
I have already asked you to stop the personal attacks, in a different thread.
I consider the above your second violation of this rule today.
-Bertrand
Re: Leaving DeviceMap
Posted by Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>.
Sorry but you know the one who insists to "kill" and wipe out everything he
does not like is Reza.
(enough mail threads on that)
Neither I nor others take his breathing space, he just prefers to breath
and think in a small box excluding or even fiercly figthing (that's where
things usually got personal from his end) other people's ideas. It was more
than once he just committed stuff without a proper ballot. The most severe
case ruined data by putting unsolicitated and unapproved class names in
there. The only reason why the DDR client was not out at the time.
And you see in Volkan's roadmap in the thread about his hackathon he
submitted entire patches that Reza didn't even ignore since then. Nor
coming up with suggestions for constructive people willing to help. So
let's hope other new committer candidates aren't scared by that way? At
least outside Apache you see every few months or even weeks some new
clients arise.
They rely on a trustworthy set of data that doesn't change just to please a
single client, API or the person behind it.
No proper Apache (or similar Open Source) project leaves a "scorched-earth
policy" deliberately destroying parts of the codebase just because one or
two team members don't like that part of the codebase, or can you name such
a project?;-)
We all know WURFL did that, but a key reason for our efforts that lead to
DeviceMap is offering an alternative, not act the same way they did again...
Werner
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 5:52 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bdelacretaz@apache.org
> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 5:46 PM, Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > ...the most important aspect
> > is how to get data into a new format without losing the precious
> > information we got about Ten Thousands of devices so far....
>
> Yes, but if this project dies because Reza leaves as you're not
> leaving enough space for him to breathe, which is very likely to
> happen IMO, that will be lost for the ASF anyway.
>
> -Bertrand
>
Re: Leaving DeviceMap
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 5:46 PM, Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...the most important aspect
> is how to get data into a new format without losing the precious
> information we got about Ten Thousands of devices so far....
Yes, but if this project dies because Reza leaves as you're not
leaving enough space for him to breathe, which is very likely to
happen IMO, that will be lost for the ASF anyway.
-Bertrand
Re: Leaving DeviceMap
Posted by Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>.
You forgot though a (not much bigger but better coordinated and yet more
democratic) team of committers lead by myself contributed ALL of
device-data in the first place;-)
Plus the seed of every example (the Spring and Servlet Filter stuff is
always just a minor variation of the /contrib codebase we brought in from
OpenDDR)
Some blurry visions about "let's rewrite everything in JSON because JSON is
cool now" etc. are not a real solution yet nor has the draft under a 2.x
branch ever happened as Bertrand and others suggested. The short, crisp but
clear 6 bullet points Volkan sent around his hackathon code seem to have
more actual substance than some of the theoretical piece on the Wiki.
No 2.x or 3.x branch would start from scratch, so the most important aspect
is how to get data into a new format without losing the precious
information we got about Ten Thousands of devices so far.
Werner
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 5:28 PM, Reza Naghibi <re...@apache.org> wrote:
> References to commits and/or other proof would be helpful here.
>
> I looked thru the SVN in regards to the examples and I see the same commit
> pattern, POM and syntax tweaks.
>
> https://svn.apache.org/viewvc/devicemap/trunk/examples/
>
> Im not trying to say that you need to be writing code to contribute here,
> there are lots of ways to contribute. But that fact that you have no
> substantial technical contributions but you are trying to direct the
> technical direction and architecture of this project goes a long way to
> explain why we are in the position we are in.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 11:13 AM, Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I got (with Bertrand's help) the CI server to work after it was broken
> for
> > several weeks.
> > Similar with the VM instance. The whole examples (for every available
> > client) shows not a single trace of activity other than my own for over a
> > year.
> >
> > Data just look up the SVN, after all that's what makes the project, there
> > are other clients outside Apache.org, and aside from refactoring, and
> > occasional fixes for new devices, there's not a significant number of
> real
> > changes in the data files either.
> >
> > Packaging and deploying the archives, sure, that did happen and some of
> the
> > administrative stuff, but why cry on one side we don't have enough
> > resources (which in a smaller project can't be denied) and refusing to
> help
> > at least one or two of the guys who showed they want to help since at
> least
> > graduation?
> >
> > Asking others to help and delegating is not weakness, and if we had
> people
> > like Volkan on board since he offered to help (just check his first JIRA
> > tickets to see when that was) not some weeks from now, it would have been
> > beneficial to the whole project.
> >
> > Sure, there are other "never-ending stories" like the new web site we
> > talked about, but what people are more interested if and when they use
> > DeviceMap is "does it recognize my device properly?"
> >
> > And especially with several issues raised by multiple people about "wrong
> > OS version". ignoring the properly given UA value of say "Android 4.1"
> and
> > returning something else like "Android 2.2" is dumb and can't be
> justified
> > by arguments like "Our magic 2.0 Wand will fix this, in the meantime
> please
> > ignore the OS version".
> >
> > The information is there, it's just not used (at least in most clients)
> And
> > whether it's the OS or browser version, there will always be some element
> > of change, and even with 40 instead of 4 or 5 committers we would not be
> > able to cope with that just in the repository.
> >
> > Which is why a "healthy dose of builder" similar to what Volkan did
> during
> > his hackathon seems very beneficial. Like some of the patches he already
> > provided, it was just up to current committers to apply them. None of us
> > did, so maybe better accept help than refuse it or just tell people
> "it'll
> > come with 2.0 or 3.x" while someone else fixed the problem already for
> 1.x.
> >
> > Werner
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Reza Naghibi <re...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > > >> Sorry but it was me who managed not only the graduation, but
> > everything
> > > else.
> > >
> > > I really need to chime in here otherwise people might believe these
> > > statements for truth. These are flat out lies. The only thing that you
> > did
> > > was point out that my the Java service was down and CI was broken. That
> > is
> > > a far stretch from actual doing things like fixing the Java service on
> > the
> > > VM, fixing CI, updating the website, contributing to releases, or
> > > graduating this project.
> > >
> > > I scanned the commit history for our website, I cannot find a single
> > update
> > > from you:
> > >
> > > https://svn.apache.org/viewvc/devicemap/site/trunk/
> > >
> > > You definitely had no role in the graduation process, I spent a good 2
> > > weeks doing all of the graduation tasks with much help from Bertrand.
> The
> > > fact that you take credit for graduating this project is sad.
> > >
> > > I look at your SVN commit history all the time, you have no releases
> and
> > > your commits amount to pretty much tweaking the legacy ODDR poms around
> > and
> > > changing the version number to compete with the 1.x releases.
> > >
> > > Are you aware that you constantly lie and manipulate the truth in your
> > > emails? To a newcomer, they probably read your emails and believe this
> > > stuff... which is scary.
> > >
> > > >> Records in this and other threads speak for themselves.
> > >
> > > Please please please start citing these records and threads. Otherwise
> > you
> > > are presenting nothing but a distorted reality.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 7:44 AM, Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Sorry but it was me who managed not only the graduation, but
> everything
> > > > else.
> > > > CI server down for months. The website was out of date for many weeks
> > > after
> > > > the graduation.
> > > > The VM instance happened to be broken or stopped several times when
> > > people
> > > > wanted to test it during conferences. I had to ask Reza to start it.
> > > > At least one on this list who also contributed was willing to help,
> but
> > > > nobody bothered to accept his help till I took another management
> > > > responsibility in my own hands and started a ballot which we
> > fortunately.
> > > >
> > > > Records in this and other threads speak for themselves. The evidence
> is
> > > > right, no need to deny any of that.
> > > > The false impression that I was "co PMC Chair" by Reza himself says
> > > enough.
> > > > I WAS doing what he volunteered to do all the time;-)
> > > >
> > > > I don't see a problem to have him as committer/PMC member, should he
> > > decide
> > > > to stay, but e.g. Bertrand until someone really qualified should
> > > volunteer
> > > > again was clearly a better choice to act as PMC chair. I did most of
> > the
> > > > other managing like votes for new committers, etc. Happy to help with
> > > that
> > > > as well.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Werner
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 12:38 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> > > > bdelacretaz@apache.org> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Reza Naghibi <re...@apache.org>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > ...Instead of focusing on writing
> > > > > > and releasing software, all my time and energy is spent on how to
> > > > manage
> > > > > > Werner....
> > > > >
> > > > > I think we now have abundant evidence that you and Werner cannot
> work
> > > > > together - evaluating who's right and who's wrong does not help
> much,
> > > > > but maybe we can find a creative solution that would cause you to
> > > > > reconsider, at least temporarily.
> > > > >
> > > > > How about defining a "perimeter" in our code and specs that Werner
> is
> > > > > not allowed to touch or discuss? It can be as simple as a subtree
> in
> > > > > our source code tree, and a wiki subtree.
> > > > >
> > > > > Combined with a ban (amicable or formal) of email arguments between
> > > > > you guys, this might be a workable solution, that we can try for
> say
> > 3
> > > > > months to see if things improve.
> > > > >
> > > > > That's unusual in an Apache project, and if this team was larger
> > > > > things would probably self-regulate, but with such a small team
> it's
> > > > > hard to find a balance without resorting to such artificial
> barriers.
> > > > >
> > > > > What do people think?
> > > > >
> > > > > -Bertrand
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Re: Leaving DeviceMap
Posted by Reza Naghibi <re...@apache.org>.
References to commits and/or other proof would be helpful here.
I looked thru the SVN in regards to the examples and I see the same commit
pattern, POM and syntax tweaks.
https://svn.apache.org/viewvc/devicemap/trunk/examples/
Im not trying to say that you need to be writing code to contribute here,
there are lots of ways to contribute. But that fact that you have no
substantial technical contributions but you are trying to direct the
technical direction and architecture of this project goes a long way to
explain why we are in the position we are in.
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 11:13 AM, Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I got (with Bertrand's help) the CI server to work after it was broken for
> several weeks.
> Similar with the VM instance. The whole examples (for every available
> client) shows not a single trace of activity other than my own for over a
> year.
>
> Data just look up the SVN, after all that's what makes the project, there
> are other clients outside Apache.org, and aside from refactoring, and
> occasional fixes for new devices, there's not a significant number of real
> changes in the data files either.
>
> Packaging and deploying the archives, sure, that did happen and some of the
> administrative stuff, but why cry on one side we don't have enough
> resources (which in a smaller project can't be denied) and refusing to help
> at least one or two of the guys who showed they want to help since at least
> graduation?
>
> Asking others to help and delegating is not weakness, and if we had people
> like Volkan on board since he offered to help (just check his first JIRA
> tickets to see when that was) not some weeks from now, it would have been
> beneficial to the whole project.
>
> Sure, there are other "never-ending stories" like the new web site we
> talked about, but what people are more interested if and when they use
> DeviceMap is "does it recognize my device properly?"
>
> And especially with several issues raised by multiple people about "wrong
> OS version". ignoring the properly given UA value of say "Android 4.1" and
> returning something else like "Android 2.2" is dumb and can't be justified
> by arguments like "Our magic 2.0 Wand will fix this, in the meantime please
> ignore the OS version".
>
> The information is there, it's just not used (at least in most clients) And
> whether it's the OS or browser version, there will always be some element
> of change, and even with 40 instead of 4 or 5 committers we would not be
> able to cope with that just in the repository.
>
> Which is why a "healthy dose of builder" similar to what Volkan did during
> his hackathon seems very beneficial. Like some of the patches he already
> provided, it was just up to current committers to apply them. None of us
> did, so maybe better accept help than refuse it or just tell people "it'll
> come with 2.0 or 3.x" while someone else fixed the problem already for 1.x.
>
> Werner
>
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Reza Naghibi <re...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > >> Sorry but it was me who managed not only the graduation, but
> everything
> > else.
> >
> > I really need to chime in here otherwise people might believe these
> > statements for truth. These are flat out lies. The only thing that you
> did
> > was point out that my the Java service was down and CI was broken. That
> is
> > a far stretch from actual doing things like fixing the Java service on
> the
> > VM, fixing CI, updating the website, contributing to releases, or
> > graduating this project.
> >
> > I scanned the commit history for our website, I cannot find a single
> update
> > from you:
> >
> > https://svn.apache.org/viewvc/devicemap/site/trunk/
> >
> > You definitely had no role in the graduation process, I spent a good 2
> > weeks doing all of the graduation tasks with much help from Bertrand. The
> > fact that you take credit for graduating this project is sad.
> >
> > I look at your SVN commit history all the time, you have no releases and
> > your commits amount to pretty much tweaking the legacy ODDR poms around
> and
> > changing the version number to compete with the 1.x releases.
> >
> > Are you aware that you constantly lie and manipulate the truth in your
> > emails? To a newcomer, they probably read your emails and believe this
> > stuff... which is scary.
> >
> > >> Records in this and other threads speak for themselves.
> >
> > Please please please start citing these records and threads. Otherwise
> you
> > are presenting nothing but a distorted reality.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 7:44 AM, Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Sorry but it was me who managed not only the graduation, but everything
> > > else.
> > > CI server down for months. The website was out of date for many weeks
> > after
> > > the graduation.
> > > The VM instance happened to be broken or stopped several times when
> > people
> > > wanted to test it during conferences. I had to ask Reza to start it.
> > > At least one on this list who also contributed was willing to help, but
> > > nobody bothered to accept his help till I took another management
> > > responsibility in my own hands and started a ballot which we
> fortunately.
> > >
> > > Records in this and other threads speak for themselves. The evidence is
> > > right, no need to deny any of that.
> > > The false impression that I was "co PMC Chair" by Reza himself says
> > enough.
> > > I WAS doing what he volunteered to do all the time;-)
> > >
> > > I don't see a problem to have him as committer/PMC member, should he
> > decide
> > > to stay, but e.g. Bertrand until someone really qualified should
> > volunteer
> > > again was clearly a better choice to act as PMC chair. I did most of
> the
> > > other managing like votes for new committers, etc. Happy to help with
> > that
> > > as well.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Werner
> > >
> > > On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 12:38 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> > > bdelacretaz@apache.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Reza Naghibi <re...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > > > > ...Instead of focusing on writing
> > > > > and releasing software, all my time and energy is spent on how to
> > > manage
> > > > > Werner....
> > > >
> > > > I think we now have abundant evidence that you and Werner cannot work
> > > > together - evaluating who's right and who's wrong does not help much,
> > > > but maybe we can find a creative solution that would cause you to
> > > > reconsider, at least temporarily.
> > > >
> > > > How about defining a "perimeter" in our code and specs that Werner is
> > > > not allowed to touch or discuss? It can be as simple as a subtree in
> > > > our source code tree, and a wiki subtree.
> > > >
> > > > Combined with a ban (amicable or formal) of email arguments between
> > > > you guys, this might be a workable solution, that we can try for say
> 3
> > > > months to see if things improve.
> > > >
> > > > That's unusual in an Apache project, and if this team was larger
> > > > things would probably self-regulate, but with such a small team it's
> > > > hard to find a balance without resorting to such artificial barriers.
> > > >
> > > > What do people think?
> > > >
> > > > -Bertrand
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Re: Leaving DeviceMap
Posted by Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>.
I got (with Bertrand's help) the CI server to work after it was broken for
several weeks.
Similar with the VM instance. The whole examples (for every available
client) shows not a single trace of activity other than my own for over a
year.
Data just look up the SVN, after all that's what makes the project, there
are other clients outside Apache.org, and aside from refactoring, and
occasional fixes for new devices, there's not a significant number of real
changes in the data files either.
Packaging and deploying the archives, sure, that did happen and some of the
administrative stuff, but why cry on one side we don't have enough
resources (which in a smaller project can't be denied) and refusing to help
at least one or two of the guys who showed they want to help since at least
graduation?
Asking others to help and delegating is not weakness, and if we had people
like Volkan on board since he offered to help (just check his first JIRA
tickets to see when that was) not some weeks from now, it would have been
beneficial to the whole project.
Sure, there are other "never-ending stories" like the new web site we
talked about, but what people are more interested if and when they use
DeviceMap is "does it recognize my device properly?"
And especially with several issues raised by multiple people about "wrong
OS version". ignoring the properly given UA value of say "Android 4.1" and
returning something else like "Android 2.2" is dumb and can't be justified
by arguments like "Our magic 2.0 Wand will fix this, in the meantime please
ignore the OS version".
The information is there, it's just not used (at least in most clients) And
whether it's the OS or browser version, there will always be some element
of change, and even with 40 instead of 4 or 5 committers we would not be
able to cope with that just in the repository.
Which is why a "healthy dose of builder" similar to what Volkan did during
his hackathon seems very beneficial. Like some of the patches he already
provided, it was just up to current committers to apply them. None of us
did, so maybe better accept help than refuse it or just tell people "it'll
come with 2.0 or 3.x" while someone else fixed the problem already for 1.x.
Werner
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Reza Naghibi <re...@apache.org> wrote:
> >> Sorry but it was me who managed not only the graduation, but everything
> else.
>
> I really need to chime in here otherwise people might believe these
> statements for truth. These are flat out lies. The only thing that you did
> was point out that my the Java service was down and CI was broken. That is
> a far stretch from actual doing things like fixing the Java service on the
> VM, fixing CI, updating the website, contributing to releases, or
> graduating this project.
>
> I scanned the commit history for our website, I cannot find a single update
> from you:
>
> https://svn.apache.org/viewvc/devicemap/site/trunk/
>
> You definitely had no role in the graduation process, I spent a good 2
> weeks doing all of the graduation tasks with much help from Bertrand. The
> fact that you take credit for graduating this project is sad.
>
> I look at your SVN commit history all the time, you have no releases and
> your commits amount to pretty much tweaking the legacy ODDR poms around and
> changing the version number to compete with the 1.x releases.
>
> Are you aware that you constantly lie and manipulate the truth in your
> emails? To a newcomer, they probably read your emails and believe this
> stuff... which is scary.
>
> >> Records in this and other threads speak for themselves.
>
> Please please please start citing these records and threads. Otherwise you
> are presenting nothing but a distorted reality.
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 7:44 AM, Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Sorry but it was me who managed not only the graduation, but everything
> > else.
> > CI server down for months. The website was out of date for many weeks
> after
> > the graduation.
> > The VM instance happened to be broken or stopped several times when
> people
> > wanted to test it during conferences. I had to ask Reza to start it.
> > At least one on this list who also contributed was willing to help, but
> > nobody bothered to accept his help till I took another management
> > responsibility in my own hands and started a ballot which we fortunately.
> >
> > Records in this and other threads speak for themselves. The evidence is
> > right, no need to deny any of that.
> > The false impression that I was "co PMC Chair" by Reza himself says
> enough.
> > I WAS doing what he volunteered to do all the time;-)
> >
> > I don't see a problem to have him as committer/PMC member, should he
> decide
> > to stay, but e.g. Bertrand until someone really qualified should
> volunteer
> > again was clearly a better choice to act as PMC chair. I did most of the
> > other managing like votes for new committers, etc. Happy to help with
> that
> > as well.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Werner
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 12:38 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> > bdelacretaz@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Reza Naghibi <re...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> > > > ...Instead of focusing on writing
> > > > and releasing software, all my time and energy is spent on how to
> > manage
> > > > Werner....
> > >
> > > I think we now have abundant evidence that you and Werner cannot work
> > > together - evaluating who's right and who's wrong does not help much,
> > > but maybe we can find a creative solution that would cause you to
> > > reconsider, at least temporarily.
> > >
> > > How about defining a "perimeter" in our code and specs that Werner is
> > > not allowed to touch or discuss? It can be as simple as a subtree in
> > > our source code tree, and a wiki subtree.
> > >
> > > Combined with a ban (amicable or formal) of email arguments between
> > > you guys, this might be a workable solution, that we can try for say 3
> > > months to see if things improve.
> > >
> > > That's unusual in an Apache project, and if this team was larger
> > > things would probably self-regulate, but with such a small team it's
> > > hard to find a balance without resorting to such artificial barriers.
> > >
> > > What do people think?
> > >
> > > -Bertrand
> > >
> >
>
Re: Leaving DeviceMap
Posted by Reza Naghibi <re...@apache.org>.
>> Sorry but it was me who managed not only the graduation, but everything
else.
I really need to chime in here otherwise people might believe these
statements for truth. These are flat out lies. The only thing that you did
was point out that my the Java service was down and CI was broken. That is
a far stretch from actual doing things like fixing the Java service on the
VM, fixing CI, updating the website, contributing to releases, or
graduating this project.
I scanned the commit history for our website, I cannot find a single update
from you:
https://svn.apache.org/viewvc/devicemap/site/trunk/
You definitely had no role in the graduation process, I spent a good 2
weeks doing all of the graduation tasks with much help from Bertrand. The
fact that you take credit for graduating this project is sad.
I look at your SVN commit history all the time, you have no releases and
your commits amount to pretty much tweaking the legacy ODDR poms around and
changing the version number to compete with the 1.x releases.
Are you aware that you constantly lie and manipulate the truth in your
emails? To a newcomer, they probably read your emails and believe this
stuff... which is scary.
>> Records in this and other threads speak for themselves.
Please please please start citing these records and threads. Otherwise you
are presenting nothing but a distorted reality.
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 7:44 AM, Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry but it was me who managed not only the graduation, but everything
> else.
> CI server down for months. The website was out of date for many weeks after
> the graduation.
> The VM instance happened to be broken or stopped several times when people
> wanted to test it during conferences. I had to ask Reza to start it.
> At least one on this list who also contributed was willing to help, but
> nobody bothered to accept his help till I took another management
> responsibility in my own hands and started a ballot which we fortunately.
>
> Records in this and other threads speak for themselves. The evidence is
> right, no need to deny any of that.
> The false impression that I was "co PMC Chair" by Reza himself says enough.
> I WAS doing what he volunteered to do all the time;-)
>
> I don't see a problem to have him as committer/PMC member, should he decide
> to stay, but e.g. Bertrand until someone really qualified should volunteer
> again was clearly a better choice to act as PMC chair. I did most of the
> other managing like votes for new committers, etc. Happy to help with that
> as well.
>
> Cheers,
> Werner
>
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 12:38 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> bdelacretaz@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Reza Naghibi <re...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > ...Instead of focusing on writing
> > > and releasing software, all my time and energy is spent on how to
> manage
> > > Werner....
> >
> > I think we now have abundant evidence that you and Werner cannot work
> > together - evaluating who's right and who's wrong does not help much,
> > but maybe we can find a creative solution that would cause you to
> > reconsider, at least temporarily.
> >
> > How about defining a "perimeter" in our code and specs that Werner is
> > not allowed to touch or discuss? It can be as simple as a subtree in
> > our source code tree, and a wiki subtree.
> >
> > Combined with a ban (amicable or formal) of email arguments between
> > you guys, this might be a workable solution, that we can try for say 3
> > months to see if things improve.
> >
> > That's unusual in an Apache project, and if this team was larger
> > things would probably self-regulate, but with such a small team it's
> > hard to find a balance without resorting to such artificial barriers.
> >
> > What do people think?
> >
> > -Bertrand
> >
>
Re: Leaving DeviceMap
Posted by Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>.
Sorry but it was me who managed not only the graduation, but everything
else.
CI server down for months. The website was out of date for many weeks after
the graduation.
The VM instance happened to be broken or stopped several times when people
wanted to test it during conferences. I had to ask Reza to start it.
At least one on this list who also contributed was willing to help, but
nobody bothered to accept his help till I took another management
responsibility in my own hands and started a ballot which we fortunately.
Records in this and other threads speak for themselves. The evidence is
right, no need to deny any of that.
The false impression that I was "co PMC Chair" by Reza himself says enough.
I WAS doing what he volunteered to do all the time;-)
I don't see a problem to have him as committer/PMC member, should he decide
to stay, but e.g. Bertrand until someone really qualified should volunteer
again was clearly a better choice to act as PMC chair. I did most of the
other managing like votes for new committers, etc. Happy to help with that
as well.
Cheers,
Werner
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 12:38 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
bdelacretaz@apache.org> wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Reza Naghibi <re...@apache.org> wrote:
> > ...Instead of focusing on writing
> > and releasing software, all my time and energy is spent on how to manage
> > Werner....
>
> I think we now have abundant evidence that you and Werner cannot work
> together - evaluating who's right and who's wrong does not help much,
> but maybe we can find a creative solution that would cause you to
> reconsider, at least temporarily.
>
> How about defining a "perimeter" in our code and specs that Werner is
> not allowed to touch or discuss? It can be as simple as a subtree in
> our source code tree, and a wiki subtree.
>
> Combined with a ban (amicable or formal) of email arguments between
> you guys, this might be a workable solution, that we can try for say 3
> months to see if things improve.
>
> That's unusual in an Apache project, and if this team was larger
> things would probably self-regulate, but with such a small team it's
> hard to find a balance without resorting to such artificial barriers.
>
> What do people think?
>
> -Bertrand
>
Re: Leaving DeviceMap
Posted by Radu Cotescu <ra...@apache.org>.
Hi,
Although I haven't had the chance to be more productive / involved in the
project due to other areas of interest, I'm in favour of finding a
compromise solution that would allow both Reza and Werner to continue
working on this project.
IIRC the main problem stems from supporting the W3C DDR Simple API (through
the legacy OpenDDR client) or implementing a new API, more suitable for the
current times. At the same time DeviceMap never claimed to support the DDR
Simple API - instead the goal was to create a data repository and
eventually an API to consume said data. Therefore I *really* don't
understand why we constantly need to argue about this.
Cheers,
Radu
On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 at 13:39 Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>
wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Reza Naghibi <re...@apache.org> wrote:
> > ...Instead of focusing on writing
> > and releasing software, all my time and energy is spent on how to manage
> > Werner....
>
> I think we now have abundant evidence that you and Werner cannot work
> together - evaluating who's right and who's wrong does not help much,
> but maybe we can find a creative solution that would cause you to
> reconsider, at least temporarily.
>
> How about defining a "perimeter" in our code and specs that Werner is
> not allowed to touch or discuss? It can be as simple as a subtree in
> our source code tree, and a wiki subtree.
>
> Combined with a ban (amicable or formal) of email arguments between
> you guys, this might be a workable solution, that we can try for say 3
> months to see if things improve.
>
> That's unusual in an Apache project, and if this team was larger
> things would probably self-regulate, but with such a small team it's
> hard to find a balance without resorting to such artificial barriers.
>
> What do people think?
>
> -Bertrand
>
Re: Leaving DeviceMap
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Reza Naghibi <re...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...Instead of focusing on writing
> and releasing software, all my time and energy is spent on how to manage
> Werner....
I think we now have abundant evidence that you and Werner cannot work
together - evaluating who's right and who's wrong does not help much,
but maybe we can find a creative solution that would cause you to
reconsider, at least temporarily.
How about defining a "perimeter" in our code and specs that Werner is
not allowed to touch or discuss? It can be as simple as a subtree in
our source code tree, and a wiki subtree.
Combined with a ban (amicable or formal) of email arguments between
you guys, this might be a workable solution, that we can try for say 3
months to see if things improve.
That's unusual in an Apache project, and if this team was larger
things would probably self-regulate, but with such a small team it's
hard to find a balance without resorting to such artificial barriers.
What do people think?
-Bertrand
Re: Leaving DeviceMap
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi Reza,
On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Reza Naghibi <re...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...this is notice that I will be leaving DeviceMap. I will be stepping
> down from the PMC and will no longer continue my duties or contribute to
> this project...
That's bad news but I totally understand your position.
When do you want to be replaced as DeviceMap PMC chair? If the project
continues to operate we'll need to elect a replacement, which takes at
least 72 hours for voting.
Although I'm not active technically in this project at the moment, I
have very much enjoyed the bright thoughts and code coming from you.
It's unfortunate that this small community cannot operate efficiently
together, but I guess it makes sense to draw a line at some point, as
you are doing.
Best of luck with your future activities in this space!
-Bertrand
Re: Leaving DeviceMap
Posted by Gaurav Pruthi <ga...@gmail.com>.
This is really unfortunate
On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 9:12 PM, Reza Naghibi <re...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hey, so this is notice that I will be leaving DeviceMap. I will be stepping
> down from the PMC and will no longer continue my duties or contribute to
> this project.
>
> While there have been a few successful aspects during my time at DeviceMap,
> as a whole, my experience here has not been good. The majority of my
> problems stem from the constant arguing, unprofessionalism, and personal
> attacks from my fellow PMC chair, Werner. Instead of focusing on writing
> and releasing software, all my time and energy is spent on how to manage
> Werner. This is not what I signed up for. Sorry to be so blunt here, but I
> just want to make it clear as to why I am leaving.
>
> I could stick around for another year or so and continue with the constant
> arguments, possibly more waves of personal attacks, get into a version war
> with the legacy ODDR client, and deal with the constant little reminders of
> how ODDR client got everything right. All of this while trying to push
> forward with 2.0. I simply choose to walk away.
>
> As for 2.0, I highly encourage this project to pursue 2.0 and evolve, if
> they wish. At some point in the future, I will likely branch and continue
> my proposed 2.0 work under a different space, name, and version.
>
> Thanks,
> Reza Naghibi
>
--
Gaurav Pruthi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gaurav_Pruthi
Re: Leaving DeviceMap
Posted by Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>.
Also a reason to add a simple but proper "emeritus" section to the team
page.
2 or more initial contributors should not just have been "cut away with a
sharp Rezor" but listed there, too after they have not actively
participated for some time.
Some or all of them are still subscribed to that list, and where things are
done in a less autocratic way here in the near future, who knows,one or the
other might even get back to active state as well.
Werner
On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 5:57 PM, Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Reza/all,
>
> Thanks a lot for your contribution. Note, I was never co PMC chair neither
> during incubation nor after it.
>
> I am simply a PMC member and initial contributor. And being involved in
> not just Apache I deal with standards also in the places where they are
> actually shaped.
> Like the majority of Apache projects I know about the value of open
> standards and I don't suffer from a "not invented here" syndrom trying to
> abandon widely-accepted standards (like every commercial vendor other than
> WURFL uses W3C DDR;-) or reivent our own here. You may succeed doing so if
> you're Google or Apple, but even the likes of Google, Facebook and many
> others usually contribute to open standards instead of trying to tweak or
> abuse them. IE9-11 is a perfect example which everyone who deals with web
> apps or user agents should know about. Microsoft tried to throw away many
> established W3C HTML or CSS standards. Causing their browser to become
> nearly irrelevant over time and disregarded by many web developers. As a
> co-speaker in Rome working on "Spartan" confirmed, they now hired many of
> the best people from Open Source communities or projects, and in fact,
> Spartan should stick to available standards. While Microsoft helps even
> Google to shape them in other areas like JS.
>
> If you're unable to understand the value of standards, that alone answers
> who had the unprofessional attitude. And those who wish to contribute
> usually don't. See things Eberhard did right in the .NET port like keeping
> the client code separate from a "console". Something not just I claimed was
> a problem. but instead of fixing that you reacted in a childish.
> unprofessional way and so far the Classifier/Client has not been fixed
> regarding that issue either. Thus the Apache community and DeviceMap users
> appreciate your effort, but it seems better that you contribute to
> something else. Take Stephen Colebourne (who is still Apache Member btw,
> but stopped contributing a while ago after he found Apache was "too
> democratic" to push his own ideas through in a project like commons) His
> Joda* projects are neverthenless popular, so if you end up writing some
> Reza* projects on GitHub or elsewhere, why not there you neither have to
> find consent in a team nor ask a Board for permission;-)
>
> Cheers,
> Werner
>
> On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Reza Naghibi <re...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Hey, so this is notice that I will be leaving DeviceMap. I will be
>> stepping
>> down from the PMC and will no longer continue my duties or contribute to
>> this project.
>>
>> While there have been a few successful aspects during my time at
>> DeviceMap,
>> as a whole, my experience here has not been good. The majority of my
>> problems stem from the constant arguing, unprofessionalism, and personal
>> attacks from my fellow PMC chair, Werner. Instead of focusing on writing
>> and releasing software, all my time and energy is spent on how to manage
>> Werner. This is not what I signed up for. Sorry to be so blunt here, but I
>> just want to make it clear as to why I am leaving.
>>
>> I could stick around for another year or so and continue with the constant
>> arguments, possibly more waves of personal attacks, get into a version war
>> with the legacy ODDR client, and deal with the constant little reminders
>> of
>> how ODDR client got everything right. All of this while trying to push
>> forward with 2.0. I simply choose to walk away.
>>
>> As for 2.0, I highly encourage this project to pursue 2.0 and evolve, if
>> they wish. At some point in the future, I will likely branch and continue
>> my proposed 2.0 work under a different space, name, and version.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Reza Naghibi
>>
>
>
Re: Leaving DeviceMap
Posted by Werner Keil <we...@gmail.com>.
Reza/all,
Thanks a lot for your contribution. Note, I was never co PMC chair neither
during incubation nor after it.
I am simply a PMC member and initial contributor. And being involved in not
just Apache I deal with standards also in the places where they are
actually shaped.
Like the majority of Apache projects I know about the value of open
standards and I don't suffer from a "not invented here" syndrom trying to
abandon widely-accepted standards (like every commercial vendor other than
WURFL uses W3C DDR;-) or reivent our own here. You may succeed doing so if
you're Google or Apple, but even the likes of Google, Facebook and many
others usually contribute to open standards instead of trying to tweak or
abuse them. IE9-11 is a perfect example which everyone who deals with web
apps or user agents should know about. Microsoft tried to throw away many
established W3C HTML or CSS standards. Causing their browser to become
nearly irrelevant over time and disregarded by many web developers. As a
co-speaker in Rome working on "Spartan" confirmed, they now hired many of
the best people from Open Source communities or projects, and in fact,
Spartan should stick to available standards. While Microsoft helps even
Google to shape them in other areas like JS.
If you're unable to understand the value of standards, that alone answers
who had the unprofessional attitude. And those who wish to contribute
usually don't. See things Eberhard did right in the .NET port like keeping
the client code separate from a "console". Something not just I claimed was
a problem. but instead of fixing that you reacted in a childish.
unprofessional way and so far the Classifier/Client has not been fixed
regarding that issue either. Thus the Apache community and DeviceMap users
appreciate your effort, but it seems better that you contribute to
something else. Take Stephen Colebourne (who is still Apache Member btw,
but stopped contributing a while ago after he found Apache was "too
democratic" to push his own ideas through in a project like commons) His
Joda* projects are neverthenless popular, so if you end up writing some
Reza* projects on GitHub or elsewhere, why not there you neither have to
find consent in a team nor ask a Board for permission;-)
Cheers,
Werner
On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Reza Naghibi <re...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hey, so this is notice that I will be leaving DeviceMap. I will be stepping
> down from the PMC and will no longer continue my duties or contribute to
> this project.
>
> While there have been a few successful aspects during my time at DeviceMap,
> as a whole, my experience here has not been good. The majority of my
> problems stem from the constant arguing, unprofessionalism, and personal
> attacks from my fellow PMC chair, Werner. Instead of focusing on writing
> and releasing software, all my time and energy is spent on how to manage
> Werner. This is not what I signed up for. Sorry to be so blunt here, but I
> just want to make it clear as to why I am leaving.
>
> I could stick around for another year or so and continue with the constant
> arguments, possibly more waves of personal attacks, get into a version war
> with the legacy ODDR client, and deal with the constant little reminders of
> how ODDR client got everything right. All of this while trying to push
> forward with 2.0. I simply choose to walk away.
>
> As for 2.0, I highly encourage this project to pursue 2.0 and evolve, if
> they wish. At some point in the future, I will likely branch and continue
> my proposed 2.0 work under a different space, name, and version.
>
> Thanks,
> Reza Naghibi
>