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Posted to dev@couchdb.apache.org by Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> on 2009/03/06 18:34:03 UTC
Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Dear CouchDB Community,
Chris Anderson, Francesco Cesarini, Marcus Taylor and I are proud to
present CouchDB Ltd., a CouchDB-centered support, consulting, training
& development company.
Why a commercial entity? I (Jan) have been doing commercial CouchDB
consulting for the last nine months and I simply can't keep up with
the demand. So I started looking for partners. First, meet Francesco
and Marcus of Erlang Training and Consulting. They are providing the
same services we will provide for CouchDB, just for Erlang. With
CouchDB written in Erlang, this couldn't be a better fit. Next up is
Chris. I don't have to tell you how much of CouchDB's success is part
of his work. He's also been working on CouchDB-related things only for
the past months. The Ltd. is simply a way of organizing our efforts
and fulfilling the enormous (really) demand for professional CouchDB
services.
Where is the catch? — We have a hard time finding one. Chris and I
both live and breath open source and so far, all our commercial
projects have allowed us to contribute back to the CouchDB source or
related open source projects. And we will continue to do so. Instead
of a catch, we believe that this of great benefit for CouchDB and the
community. We'll have two more full-time CouchDB contributers, next to
Damien. Hooray!
The CouchDB Ltd. website will go live at http://couchdb.com/ in the
next one or two weeks. We'll make sure that there's a link and a note
back to the official website & project on every relevant page. CouchDB
Ltd. is at it's heart an open source company, invested in the success
of CouchDB. We believe that making commercial support available will
extend the range of companies and products that are able and willing
to take a bet on a new technology.
If you have any questions, feel free to reply to this thread or email
Chris or me directly.
Thank you all for making CouchDB the phenomenal success it is now!
Cheers
Jan, Chris, Francesco & Marcus
--
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Bruno Ronchetti <br...@mac.com>.
Jan,
great to hear that. Best of luck to CouchDB Ltd. and to you all.
Bruno
On Friday, March 06, 2009, at 06:34PM, "Jan Lehnardt" <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>Dear CouchDB Community,
>
>Chris Anderson, Francesco Cesarini, Marcus Taylor and I are proud to
>present CouchDB Ltd., a CouchDB-centered support, consulting, training
>& development company.
>
>Why a commercial entity? I (Jan) have been doing commercial CouchDB
>consulting for the last nine months and I simply can't keep up with
>the demand. So I started looking for partners. First, meet Francesco
>and Marcus of Erlang Training and Consulting. They are providing the
>same services we will provide for CouchDB, just for Erlang. With
>CouchDB written in Erlang, this couldn't be a better fit. Next up is
>Chris. I don't have to tell you how much of CouchDB's success is part
>of his work. He's also been working on CouchDB-related things only for
>the past months. The Ltd. is simply a way of organizing our efforts
>and fulfilling the enormous (really) demand for professional CouchDB
>services.
>
>Where is the catch? — We have a hard time finding one. Chris and I
>both live and breath open source and so far, all our commercial
>projects have allowed us to contribute back to the CouchDB source or
>related open source projects. And we will continue to do so. Instead
>of a catch, we believe that this of great benefit for CouchDB and the
>community. We'll have two more full-time CouchDB contributers, next to
>Damien. Hooray!
>
>The CouchDB Ltd. website will go live at http://couchdb.com/ in the
>next one or two weeks. We'll make sure that there's a link and a note
>back to the official website & project on every relevant page. CouchDB
>Ltd. is at it's heart an open source company, invested in the success
>of CouchDB. We believe that making commercial support available will
>extend the range of companies and products that are able and willing
>to take a bet on a new technology.
>
>If you have any questions, feel free to reply to this thread or email
>Chris or me directly.
>
>Thank you all for making CouchDB the phenomenal success it is now!
>
>Cheers
>Jan, Chris, Francesco & Marcus
>--
>
>
>
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Paul Campbell <pa...@rushedsunlight.com>.
Jan,
Proud and excited to hear this. I wish you the very best of luck.
Paul Campbell
0879148162
www.pabcas.com
www.twitter.com/paulca
On 6 Mar 2009, at 17:34, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
> Dear CouchDB Community,
>
> Chris Anderson, Francesco Cesarini, Marcus Taylor and I are proud to
> present CouchDB Ltd., a CouchDB-centered support, consulting, training
> & development company.
>
> Why a commercial entity? I (Jan) have been doing commercial CouchDB
> consulting for the last nine months and I simply can't keep up with
> the demand. So I started looking for partners. First, meet Francesco
> and Marcus of Erlang Training and Consulting. They are providing the
> same services we will provide for CouchDB, just for Erlang. With
> CouchDB written in Erlang, this couldn't be a better fit. Next up is
> Chris. I don't have to tell you how much of CouchDB's success is part
> of his work. He's also been working on CouchDB-related things only for
> the past months. The Ltd. is simply a way of organizing our efforts
> and fulfilling the enormous (really) demand for professional CouchDB
> services.
>
> Where is the catch? — We have a hard time finding one. Chris and I
> both live and breath open source and so far, all our commercial
> projects have allowed us to contribute back to the CouchDB source or
> related open source projects. And we will continue to do so. Instead
> of a catch, we believe that this of great benefit for CouchDB and the
> community. We'll have two more full-time CouchDB contributers, next to
> Damien. Hooray!
>
> The CouchDB Ltd. website will go live at http://couchdb.com/ in the
> next one or two weeks. We'll make sure that there's a link and a note
> back to the official website & project on every relevant page. CouchDB
> Ltd. is at it's heart an open source company, invested in the success
> of CouchDB. We believe that making commercial support available will
> extend the range of companies and products that are able and willing
> to take a bet on a new technology.
>
> If you have any questions, feel free to reply to this thread or email
> Chris or me directly.
>
> Thank you all for making CouchDB the phenomenal success it is now!
>
> Cheers
> Jan, Chris, Francesco & Marcus
> --
>
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org>.
Hi Dave,
On 8 Mar 2009, at 22:04, Dave butlerdi wrote:
> It looks like this
>
> http://rubyonrails.org/ecosystem
>
> Very inclusive, giving a wide range of optios, and showing off many
> of the
> possible support options available. I think that as a means
> of garnering support for a technology this is far better than a single
> startup.
I don't see why we can't set this up as well. At the moment, we only
have the "In The Wild" wiki page which is less fancy and is not exactly
the same thing, but CouchDB is not Rails (just yet :-).
> Again, not adverse to commercialisation, as there are many firms that
> require support, however the name and the manner in which it has
> been done
> is as I said before, in my opinion counter productive to the
> promotion of the
> project to a wide range of developers and users alike.
We hoped to be judged "good mannered" by discussing this publicly
instead of presenting a situation set in stone*. Given that we replied
to
the naming issue rather immediately, why do you think our plans are
counter-productive? I hope we can clear your doubts.
*note that couchdb.com still redirects to couchdb.apache.org
Cheers
Jan
--
>
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 8:32 PM, Dean Landolt <de...@deanlandolt.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Dave butlerdi <bu...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Was quite suprised to see CouchDB Ltd on the slides from the Hadoop
>> meeting
>>> in Berlin. Was unable to get up there but really think that this
>>> is a bad
>>> move.
>>
>>
>> I work for a company *very *unfriendly to (rather, more unfamiliar
>> with)
>> open-source. Having commercial entities behind specific software
>> projects
>> lends them a legitimacy to many people. If you're arguing that
>> CouchDB Ltd.
>> may be an endorsement or misleading name, that's one thing, but I
>> fail to
>> see the poor taste behind announcing any and all commercial endeavors
>> behind
>> couch.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> You are an Apache project and this just seems counter productive.
>>> I also
>>> think that several other projects have become entailed of this
>>> type of
>>> behaviour and had problems with Apache in the end.
>>
>>
>> Can you give an example? As an IP geek I'm always interested in
>> reading
>> about how these kinds of things go wrong.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I do not commit, not am I interested in commercialising my
>>> experience
>> with
>>> the product, but use Couch. However, to use the project name for
>>> commercail
>>> gain by a few does seem wrong. Why not follow the Ruby/Rails
>>> example and
>>> set
>>> up a community effort for the provision of services under the
>>> CouchDB
>> name.
>>
>>
>> Can you expound on what you mean by that? I'm unfamiliar with the
>> rails
>> community -- what does a "community effort for the provision of
>> services"
>> look like?
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Regards
>
> Dave Butler
> butlerdi-at-pharm2phork-dot-org
>
> Also on Skype as butlerdi
>
> Get Skype here http://www.skype.com/download.html
>
>
> **********************************************************************
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
> the system manager.
>
> This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
> MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
>
> www.mimesweeper.com
> **********************************************************************
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Dave butlerdi <bu...@gmail.com>.
It looks like this
http://rubyonrails.org/ecosystem
Very inclusive, giving a wide range of optios, and showing off many of the
possible support options available. I think that as a means
of garnering support for a technology this is far better than a single
startup.
Again, not adverse to commercialisation, as there are many firms that
require support, however the name and the manner in which it has been done
is
as I said before, in my opinion counter productive to the promotion of the
project to a wide range of developers and users alike.
On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 8:32 PM, Dean Landolt <de...@deanlandolt.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Dave butlerdi <bu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Was quite suprised to see CouchDB Ltd on the slides from the Hadoop
> meeting
> > in Berlin. Was unable to get up there but really think that this is a bad
> > move.
>
>
> I work for a company *very *unfriendly to (rather, more unfamiliar with)
> open-source. Having commercial entities behind specific software projects
> lends them a legitimacy to many people. If you're arguing that CouchDB Ltd.
> may be an endorsement or misleading name, that's one thing, but I fail to
> see the poor taste behind announcing any and all commercial endeavors
> behind
> couch.
>
>
> >
> > You are an Apache project and this just seems counter productive. I also
> > think that several other projects have become entailed of this type of
> > behaviour and had problems with Apache in the end.
>
>
> Can you give an example? As an IP geek I'm always interested in reading
> about how these kinds of things go wrong.
>
>
> >
> > I do not commit, not am I interested in commercialising my experience
> with
> > the product, but use Couch. However, to use the project name for
> > commercail
> > gain by a few does seem wrong. Why not follow the Ruby/Rails example and
> > set
> > up a community effort for the provision of services under the CouchDB
> name.
>
>
> Can you expound on what you mean by that? I'm unfamiliar with the rails
> community -- what does a "community effort for the provision of services"
> look like?
>
--
Regards
Dave Butler
butlerdi-at-pharm2phork-dot-org
Also on Skype as butlerdi
Get Skype here http://www.skype.com/download.html
**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.
This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
www.mimesweeper.com
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Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Dean Landolt <de...@deanlandolt.com>.
On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Dave butlerdi <bu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Was quite suprised to see CouchDB Ltd on the slides from the Hadoop meeting
> in Berlin. Was unable to get up there but really think that this is a bad
> move.
I work for a company *very *unfriendly to (rather, more unfamiliar with)
open-source. Having commercial entities behind specific software projects
lends them a legitimacy to many people. If you're arguing that CouchDB Ltd.
may be an endorsement or misleading name, that's one thing, but I fail to
see the poor taste behind announcing any and all commercial endeavors behind
couch.
>
> You are an Apache project and this just seems counter productive. I also
> think that several other projects have become entailed of this type of
> behaviour and had problems with Apache in the end.
Can you give an example? As an IP geek I'm always interested in reading
about how these kinds of things go wrong.
>
> I do not commit, not am I interested in commercialising my experience with
> the product, but use Couch. However, to use the project name for
> commercail
> gain by a few does seem wrong. Why not follow the Ruby/Rails example and
> set
> up a community effort for the provision of services under the CouchDB name.
Can you expound on what you mean by that? I'm unfamiliar with the rails
community -- what does a "community effort for the provision of services"
look like?
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Dave butlerdi <bu...@gmail.com>.
Gianugo's post +1
On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 9:39 PM, Gianugo Rabellino <gi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
> >> You are an Apache project and this just seems counter productive.
> >
> > In which way exactly? Getting people paid to advance CouchDB?
> >
> >
> >> I also
> >> think that several other projects have become entailed of this type of
> >> behaviour and had problems with Apache in the end.
> >
> > We'd love to hear about past experiences so we can try and avoid
> > the same mistakes.
>
> Jan,
>
> one of the core values of Apache is its neutrality. Our
> meritocracy-based system is one of a kind, and something that allows
> commercial endeavors to cooperate on neutral grounds. Think what IBM
> did with Tomcat and, later on, Sun did with Derby - you most
> definitely wouldn't have seen IBM cooperating on the "Sun Java Web
> Server", neither the opposite would have worked with "IBM Cloudscape".
> Until not so long ago, one of the requests we used to ask projects in
> order for them to enter the ASF was to change name: that was seen as a
> way to ensure Apache would have been a fresh start on neutral grounds.
>
> If you are to continue using the CouchDB name in your company, I'm not
> sure what the legal situation would be (it could be argued some
> trademark issues might be there) but, as you can see, you are likely
> to piss people off by sending the message that you are the ones
> "owning" the project which, in Apache terms, is a no-no. You are
> absolutely fine in having commercial objectives and, ultimately, pay
> the bills, but the Wordpress case is not applicable here: Wordpress
> chose to walk on his own legs, hosting their project within their own
> infrastructure and no leverage on existing communities and branding.
> With my ASF hat on, I see this move as potentially harmful, as it
> sends the message that you are leveraging Apache, which requires this
> community to remain meritocratic and neutral, while owning the project
> as you are the core developers.
>
> Believe me - you are entering muddy waters here as any decision on
> future directions and/or committership is likely to be scrutinized
> anyways as people might and will wonder if you are able to stick to
> community values or if, ultimately, you will be driven by your own
> agendas. There is nothing you can do other than proving your worth -
> which I'm sure you will, but at least you shouldn't make your life
> even more difficult. :)
>
> Changing a company name is one of the hardest thing to do - I suggest
> you reconsider as soon as possible as it might be too late later down
> the road.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Gianugo Rabellino
> Sourcesense, making sense of Open Source: http://www.sourcesense.com
> (blogging at http://www.rabellino.it/blog/)
>
--
Regards
Dave Butler
butlerdi-at-pharm2phork-dot-org
Also on Skype as butlerdi
Get Skype here http://www.skype.com/download.html
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Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org>.
On Sun, Mar 08, 2009 at 10:08:02PM +0100, Jan Lehnardt wrote:
>> You are
>> absolutely fine in having commercial objectives and, ultimately, pay
>> the bills, but the Wordpress case is not applicable here: Wordpress
>> chose to walk on his own legs, hosting their project within their own
>> infrastructure and no leverage on existing communities and branding.
>
> I didn't bring up Wordpress. Noah did and he is not part of the company.
Yeah, sorry for sticking my oar in.
... I did an about-face about two minutes later anyway. Heh.
Keeping my mouth shut.
--
Noah Slater, http://tumbolia.org/nslater
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Dave butlerdi <bu...@gmail.com>.
Cheers
Dave
On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 10:35 PM, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On 8 Mar 2009, at 22:29, Jan Lehnardt wrote:
>
> Dave,
>>
>> I'm not sure if Chris's earlier message made it through:
>>
>> I've felt the fair-competition argument a little on my own, so hearing
>>> it from other quarters gives it even greater weight. We're discussing
>>> ways to proceed that take into account the full community, including
>>> competitors (of which we hope to have many!)
>>>
>>> Thanks for the perspective, everyone. We'll have more to announce in
>>> the next few days.
>>>
>>
>> That should address all you raise here, no?
>>
>
> Should have been "Does that address all issues you raise here?"/
>
> Sorry if it sounded snappy. My standard non-native-speaker-disclaimer
> applies.
>
> Cheers
> Jan
> --
>
>
>
>> Cheers
>> Jan
>> --
>>
>>
>> On 8 Mar 2009, at 22:24, Dave butlerdi wrote:
>>
>> Jan,
>>>
>>> Sent the last reply before seeing your post. If you wish to use the name
>>> for
>>> commercial ventures by a few, then your project should not be an Apache
>>> project. It really is that simple.
>>>
>>> You are either a community project or not. If you are then leave the name
>>> to
>>> the "Community". When you joined Apache you really lost all claim to
>>> ownership of the project and will
>>> and can expect this to be a benefit as well as in some ways a hinderance,
>>> but that was your decision.
>>>
>>> In order for a product such as this to gain acceptance you need a large
>>> group of people and companies to promote the project. Naming your company
>>> and web site after the project will keep this from happening on any real
>>> scale.
>>>
>>> Again just my .02€.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 10:17 PM, Dave butlerdi <bu...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Jan,
>>>>
>>>> A fairly recent edition to Apache was Jini from Sun. It entered Apache
>>>> as
>>>> River and has really had a hard time since coming to Apache, partially I
>>>> suppose from the name
>>>> change, but probably more due to politics and Suns direction with many
>>>> of
>>>> the ideas from Jini.
>>>>
>>>> I have been involved with many products coming out of Apache since it
>>>> was
>>>> founded, and the successful ones do try their best to garner and reflect
>>>> the
>>>> spirit of Apache in it's
>>>> meritocracy and neutrality. You guys have a great thing going, look at
>>>> http://rubyonrails.org/ecosystem and see how well these folks have done
>>>> and look to do something similar.
>>>>
>>>> I am certain that you will end up in a much better position commercially
>>>> taking this approach.
>>>>
>>>> It will do no good for anyone, especially us lowly users, if this thing
>>>> gets forked and flounders.
>>>>
>>>> Again, just my .02€
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 10:08 PM, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Gianugo (and Dave from your +1 email),
>>>>>
>>>>> thanks, some meat, finally :) I'll just throw in some comments as I see
>>>>> multiple issues becoming mixed together which makes discussion
>>>>> a little trickier. I hope you and the others here can respond to my
>>>>> response.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8 Mar 2009, at 21:39, Gianugo Rabellino wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are an Apache project and this just seems counter productive.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In which way exactly? Getting people paid to advance CouchDB?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I also
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> think that several other projects have become entailed of this type
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> behaviour and had problems with Apache in the end.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We'd love to hear about past experiences so we can try and avoid
>>>>>>> the same mistakes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jan,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> one of the core values of Apache is its neutrality. Our
>>>>>> meritocracy-based system is one of a kind, and something that allows
>>>>>> commercial endeavors to cooperate on neutral grounds. Think what IBM
>>>>>> did with Tomcat and, later on, Sun did with Derby - you most
>>>>>> definitely wouldn't have seen IBM cooperating on the "Sun Java Web
>>>>>> Server", neither the opposite would have worked with "IBM Cloudscape".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I have no experience with any of these projects.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Until not so long ago, one of the requests we used to ask projects in
>>>>>
>>>>>> order for them to enter the ASF was to change name: that was seen as a
>>>>>> way to ensure Apache would have been a fresh start on neutral grounds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> That is totally understandable. I guess it didn't happen with CouchDB
>>>>> because it was still "fresh" and did not enter the ASF from a
>>>>> commercial
>>>>> background.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you are to continue using the CouchDB name in your company, I'm not
>>>>>
>>>>>> sure what the legal situation would be (it could be argued some
>>>>>> trademark issues might be there) but, as you can see, you are likely
>>>>>> to piss people off by sending the message that you are the ones
>>>>>> "owning" the project which, in Apache terms, is a no-no.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Chris said, and then I repeated that we are addressing the naming
>>>>> issue :) We do not want to get into legal trouble nor do we want to
>>>>> piss anyone off. I hope the fact that we're discussing this here proves
>>>>> we mean it :)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You are
>>>>>
>>>>>> absolutely fine in having commercial objectives and, ultimately, pay
>>>>>> the bills, but the Wordpress case is not applicable here: Wordpress
>>>>>> chose to walk on his own legs, hosting their project within their own
>>>>>> infrastructure and no leverage on existing communities and branding.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I didn't bring up Wordpress. Noah did and he is not part of the
>>>>> company.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> With my ASF hat on, I see this move as potentially harmful, as it
>>>>>
>>>>>> sends the message that you are leveraging Apache, which requires this
>>>>>> community to remain meritocratic and neutral, while owning the project
>>>>>> as you are the core developers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Chris and I are two out of seven committers and two out of three PMC
>>>>> members. With any of my hats on, I can only hope for and see the ratio
>>>>> shifting towards the community in the future.
>>>>>
>>>>> The naming-issue is separate from the meritocracy.
>>>>>
>>>>> What other issues are there?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Believe me - you are entering muddy waters here as any decision on
>>>>>
>>>>>> future directions and/or committership is likely to be scrutinized
>>>>>> anyways as people might and will wonder if you are able to stick to
>>>>>> community values or if, ultimately, you will be driven by your own
>>>>>> agendas. There is nothing you can do other than proving your worth -
>>>>>> which I'm sure you will, but at least you shouldn't make your life
>>>>>> even more difficult. :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> As I wrote in the introductory email, I'm in the exact same position
>>>>> for
>>>>> some time now and so is Chris, the fact that there is now a company
>>>>> doesn't change much from our point of view. Except maybe we have
>>>>> even more time to contribute to the project :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris and I agree that our commercial endeavour would be all void
>>>>> if it weren't for healthy open source project & community and anything
>>>>> we'd do to compromise this would be silly. We strongly believe in open
>>>>> source and we wouldn't have dared to set out on this if the CouchDB
>>>>> community would not be working so well.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Changing a company name is one of the hardest thing to do - I suggest
>>>>>
>>>>>> you reconsider as soon as possible as it might be too late later down
>>>>>> the road.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks again for the feedback, we hope to be able to address all
>>>>> issues of meritocracy, naming and source.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>> Jan
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>> Dave Butler
>>>> butlerdi-at-pharm2phork-dot-org
>>>>
>>>> Also on Skype as butlerdi
>>>>
>>>> Get Skype here http://www.skype.com/download.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> **********************************************************************
>>>> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
>>>> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
>>>> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
>>>> the system manager.
>>>>
>>>> This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
>>>> MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
>>>>
>>>> www.mimesweeper.com
>>>> **********************************************************************
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Dave Butler
>>> butlerdi-at-pharm2phork-dot-org
>>>
>>> Also on Skype as butlerdi
>>>
>>> Get Skype here http://www.skype.com/download.html
>>>
>>>
>>> **********************************************************************
>>> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
>>> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
>>> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
>>> the system manager.
>>>
>>> This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
>>> MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
>>>
>>> www.mimesweeper.com
>>> **********************************************************************
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
--
Regards
Dave Butler
butlerdi-at-pharm2phork-dot-org
Also on Skype as butlerdi
Get Skype here http://www.skype.com/download.html
**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.
This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
www.mimesweeper.com
**********************************************************************
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org>.
On 8 Mar 2009, at 22:29, Jan Lehnardt wrote:
> Dave,
>
> I'm not sure if Chris's earlier message made it through:
>
>> I've felt the fair-competition argument a little on my own, so
>> hearing
>> it from other quarters gives it even greater weight. We're discussing
>> ways to proceed that take into account the full community, including
>> competitors (of which we hope to have many!)
>>
>> Thanks for the perspective, everyone. We'll have more to announce in
>> the next few days.
>
> That should address all you raise here, no?
Should have been "Does that address all issues you raise here?"/
Sorry if it sounded snappy. My standard non-native-speaker-disclaimer
applies.
Cheers
Jan
--
>
> Cheers
> Jan
> --
>
>
> On 8 Mar 2009, at 22:24, Dave butlerdi wrote:
>
>> Jan,
>>
>> Sent the last reply before seeing your post. If you wish to use the
>> name for
>> commercial ventures by a few, then your project should not be an
>> Apache
>> project. It really is that simple.
>>
>> You are either a community project or not. If you are then leave
>> the name to
>> the "Community". When you joined Apache you really lost all claim to
>> ownership of the project and will
>> and can expect this to be a benefit as well as in some ways a
>> hinderance,
>> but that was your decision.
>>
>> In order for a product such as this to gain acceptance you need a
>> large
>> group of people and companies to promote the project. Naming your
>> company
>> and web site after the project will keep this from happening on any
>> real
>> scale.
>>
>> Again just my .02€.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 10:17 PM, Dave butlerdi <bu...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Jan,
>>>
>>> A fairly recent edition to Apache was Jini from Sun. It entered
>>> Apache as
>>> River and has really had a hard time since coming to Apache,
>>> partially I
>>> suppose from the name
>>> change, but probably more due to politics and Suns direction with
>>> many of
>>> the ideas from Jini.
>>>
>>> I have been involved with many products coming out of Apache since
>>> it was
>>> founded, and the successful ones do try their best to garner and
>>> reflect the
>>> spirit of Apache in it's
>>> meritocracy and neutrality. You guys have a great thing going,
>>> look at
>>> http://rubyonrails.org/ecosystem and see how well these folks have
>>> done
>>> and look to do something similar.
>>>
>>> I am certain that you will end up in a much better position
>>> commercially
>>> taking this approach.
>>>
>>> It will do no good for anyone, especially us lowly users, if this
>>> thing
>>> gets forked and flounders.
>>>
>>> Again, just my .02€
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 10:08 PM, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Gianugo (and Dave from your +1 email),
>>>>
>>>> thanks, some meat, finally :) I'll just throw in some comments as
>>>> I see
>>>> multiple issues becoming mixed together which makes discussion
>>>> a little trickier. I hope you and the others here can respond to my
>>>> response.
>>>>
>>>> On 8 Mar 2009, at 21:39, Gianugo Rabellino wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> You are an Apache project and this just seems counter productive.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In which way exactly? Getting people paid to advance CouchDB?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also
>>>>>>> think that several other projects have become entailed of
>>>>>>> this type of
>>>>>>> behaviour and had problems with Apache in the end.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We'd love to hear about past experiences so we can try and avoid
>>>>>> the same mistakes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jan,
>>>>>
>>>>> one of the core values of Apache is its neutrality. Our
>>>>> meritocracy-based system is one of a kind, and something that
>>>>> allows
>>>>> commercial endeavors to cooperate on neutral grounds. Think what
>>>>> IBM
>>>>> did with Tomcat and, later on, Sun did with Derby - you most
>>>>> definitely wouldn't have seen IBM cooperating on the "Sun Java Web
>>>>> Server", neither the opposite would have worked with "IBM
>>>>> Cloudscape".
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have no experience with any of these projects.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Until not so long ago, one of the requests we used to ask
>>>> projects in
>>>>> order for them to enter the ASF was to change name: that was
>>>>> seen as a
>>>>> way to ensure Apache would have been a fresh start on neutral
>>>>> grounds.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That is totally understandable. I guess it didn't happen with
>>>> CouchDB
>>>> because it was still "fresh" and did not enter the ASF from a
>>>> commercial
>>>> background.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you are to continue using the CouchDB name in your company,
>>>> I'm not
>>>>> sure what the legal situation would be (it could be argued some
>>>>> trademark issues might be there) but, as you can see, you are
>>>>> likely
>>>>> to piss people off by sending the message that you are the ones
>>>>> "owning" the project which, in Apache terms, is a no-no.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Chris said, and then I repeated that we are addressing the naming
>>>> issue :) We do not want to get into legal trouble nor do we want to
>>>> piss anyone off. I hope the fact that we're discussing this here
>>>> proves
>>>> we mean it :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You are
>>>>> absolutely fine in having commercial objectives and, ultimately,
>>>>> pay
>>>>> the bills, but the Wordpress case is not applicable here:
>>>>> Wordpress
>>>>> chose to walk on his own legs, hosting their project within
>>>>> their own
>>>>> infrastructure and no leverage on existing communities and
>>>>> branding.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I didn't bring up Wordpress. Noah did and he is not part of the
>>>> company.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> With my ASF hat on, I see this move as potentially harmful, as it
>>>>> sends the message that you are leveraging Apache, which requires
>>>>> this
>>>>> community to remain meritocratic and neutral, while owning the
>>>>> project
>>>>> as you are the core developers.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Chris and I are two out of seven committers and two out of three
>>>> PMC
>>>> members. With any of my hats on, I can only hope for and see the
>>>> ratio
>>>> shifting towards the community in the future.
>>>>
>>>> The naming-issue is separate from the meritocracy.
>>>>
>>>> What other issues are there?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Believe me - you are entering muddy waters here as any decision on
>>>>> future directions and/or committership is likely to be scrutinized
>>>>> anyways as people might and will wonder if you are able to stick
>>>>> to
>>>>> community values or if, ultimately, you will be driven by your own
>>>>> agendas. There is nothing you can do other than proving your
>>>>> worth -
>>>>> which I'm sure you will, but at least you shouldn't make your life
>>>>> even more difficult. :)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As I wrote in the introductory email, I'm in the exact same
>>>> position for
>>>> some time now and so is Chris, the fact that there is now a company
>>>> doesn't change much from our point of view. Except maybe we have
>>>> even more time to contribute to the project :)
>>>>
>>>> Chris and I agree that our commercial endeavour would be all void
>>>> if it weren't for healthy open source project & community and
>>>> anything
>>>> we'd do to compromise this would be silly. We strongly believe in
>>>> open
>>>> source and we wouldn't have dared to set out on this if the CouchDB
>>>> community would not be working so well.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Changing a company name is one of the hardest thing to do - I
>>>> suggest
>>>>> you reconsider as soon as possible as it might be too late later
>>>>> down
>>>>> the road.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks again for the feedback, we hope to be able to address all
>>>> issues of meritocracy, naming and source.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Jan
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Dave Butler
>>> butlerdi-at-pharm2phork-dot-org
>>>
>>> Also on Skype as butlerdi
>>>
>>> Get Skype here http://www.skype.com/download.html
>>>
>>>
>>> **********************************************************************
>>> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
>>> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
>>> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please
>>> notify
>>> the system manager.
>>>
>>> This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept
>>> by
>>> MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
>>>
>>> www.mimesweeper.com
>>> **********************************************************************
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Regards
>>
>> Dave Butler
>> butlerdi-at-pharm2phork-dot-org
>>
>> Also on Skype as butlerdi
>>
>> Get Skype here http://www.skype.com/download.html
>>
>>
>> **********************************************************************
>> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
>> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
>> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
>> the system manager.
>>
>> This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
>> MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
>>
>> www.mimesweeper.com
>> **********************************************************************
>
>
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org>.
Dave,
I'm not sure if Chris's earlier message made it through:
> I've felt the fair-competition argument a little on my own, so hearing
> it from other quarters gives it even greater weight. We're discussing
> ways to proceed that take into account the full community, including
> competitors (of which we hope to have many!)
>
> Thanks for the perspective, everyone. We'll have more to announce in
> the next few days.
That should address all you raise here, no?
Cheers
Jan
--
On 8 Mar 2009, at 22:24, Dave butlerdi wrote:
> Jan,
>
> Sent the last reply before seeing your post. If you wish to use the
> name for
> commercial ventures by a few, then your project should not be an
> Apache
> project. It really is that simple.
>
> You are either a community project or not. If you are then leave the
> name to
> the "Community". When you joined Apache you really lost all claim to
> ownership of the project and will
> and can expect this to be a benefit as well as in some ways a
> hinderance,
> but that was your decision.
>
> In order for a product such as this to gain acceptance you need a
> large
> group of people and companies to promote the project. Naming your
> company
> and web site after the project will keep this from happening on any
> real
> scale.
>
> Again just my .02€.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 10:17 PM, Dave butlerdi <bu...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Jan,
>>
>> A fairly recent edition to Apache was Jini from Sun. It entered
>> Apache as
>> River and has really had a hard time since coming to Apache,
>> partially I
>> suppose from the name
>> change, but probably more due to politics and Suns direction with
>> many of
>> the ideas from Jini.
>>
>> I have been involved with many products coming out of Apache since
>> it was
>> founded, and the successful ones do try their best to garner and
>> reflect the
>> spirit of Apache in it's
>> meritocracy and neutrality. You guys have a great thing going, look
>> at
>> http://rubyonrails.org/ecosystem and see how well these folks have
>> done
>> and look to do something similar.
>>
>> I am certain that you will end up in a much better position
>> commercially
>> taking this approach.
>>
>> It will do no good for anyone, especially us lowly users, if this
>> thing
>> gets forked and flounders.
>>
>> Again, just my .02€
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 10:08 PM, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Gianugo (and Dave from your +1 email),
>>>
>>> thanks, some meat, finally :) I'll just throw in some comments as
>>> I see
>>> multiple issues becoming mixed together which makes discussion
>>> a little trickier. I hope you and the others here can respond to my
>>> response.
>>>
>>> On 8 Mar 2009, at 21:39, Gianugo Rabellino wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You are an Apache project and this just seems counter productive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In which way exactly? Getting people paid to advance CouchDB?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I also
>>>>>> think that several other projects have become entailed of this
>>>>>> type of
>>>>>> behaviour and had problems with Apache in the end.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We'd love to hear about past experiences so we can try and avoid
>>>>> the same mistakes.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jan,
>>>>
>>>> one of the core values of Apache is its neutrality. Our
>>>> meritocracy-based system is one of a kind, and something that
>>>> allows
>>>> commercial endeavors to cooperate on neutral grounds. Think what
>>>> IBM
>>>> did with Tomcat and, later on, Sun did with Derby - you most
>>>> definitely wouldn't have seen IBM cooperating on the "Sun Java Web
>>>> Server", neither the opposite would have worked with "IBM
>>>> Cloudscape".
>>>>
>>>
>>> I have no experience with any of these projects.
>>>
>>>
>>> Until not so long ago, one of the requests we used to ask projects
>>> in
>>>> order for them to enter the ASF was to change name: that was seen
>>>> as a
>>>> way to ensure Apache would have been a fresh start on neutral
>>>> grounds.
>>>>
>>>
>>> That is totally understandable. I guess it didn't happen with
>>> CouchDB
>>> because it was still "fresh" and did not enter the ASF from a
>>> commercial
>>> background.
>>>
>>>
>>> If you are to continue using the CouchDB name in your company, I'm
>>> not
>>>> sure what the legal situation would be (it could be argued some
>>>> trademark issues might be there) but, as you can see, you are
>>>> likely
>>>> to piss people off by sending the message that you are the ones
>>>> "owning" the project which, in Apache terms, is a no-no.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Chris said, and then I repeated that we are addressing the naming
>>> issue :) We do not want to get into legal trouble nor do we want to
>>> piss anyone off. I hope the fact that we're discussing this here
>>> proves
>>> we mean it :)
>>>
>>>
>>> You are
>>>> absolutely fine in having commercial objectives and, ultimately,
>>>> pay
>>>> the bills, but the Wordpress case is not applicable here: Wordpress
>>>> chose to walk on his own legs, hosting their project within their
>>>> own
>>>> infrastructure and no leverage on existing communities and
>>>> branding.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I didn't bring up Wordpress. Noah did and he is not part of the
>>> company.
>>>
>>>
>>> With my ASF hat on, I see this move as potentially harmful, as it
>>>> sends the message that you are leveraging Apache, which requires
>>>> this
>>>> community to remain meritocratic and neutral, while owning the
>>>> project
>>>> as you are the core developers.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Chris and I are two out of seven committers and two out of three PMC
>>> members. With any of my hats on, I can only hope for and see the
>>> ratio
>>> shifting towards the community in the future.
>>>
>>> The naming-issue is separate from the meritocracy.
>>>
>>> What other issues are there?
>>>
>>>
>>> Believe me - you are entering muddy waters here as any decision on
>>>> future directions and/or committership is likely to be scrutinized
>>>> anyways as people might and will wonder if you are able to stick to
>>>> community values or if, ultimately, you will be driven by your own
>>>> agendas. There is nothing you can do other than proving your
>>>> worth -
>>>> which I'm sure you will, but at least you shouldn't make your life
>>>> even more difficult. :)
>>>>
>>>
>>> As I wrote in the introductory email, I'm in the exact same
>>> position for
>>> some time now and so is Chris, the fact that there is now a company
>>> doesn't change much from our point of view. Except maybe we have
>>> even more time to contribute to the project :)
>>>
>>> Chris and I agree that our commercial endeavour would be all void
>>> if it weren't for healthy open source project & community and
>>> anything
>>> we'd do to compromise this would be silly. We strongly believe in
>>> open
>>> source and we wouldn't have dared to set out on this if the CouchDB
>>> community would not be working so well.
>>>
>>>
>>> Changing a company name is one of the hardest thing to do - I
>>> suggest
>>>> you reconsider as soon as possible as it might be too late later
>>>> down
>>>> the road.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks again for the feedback, we hope to be able to address all
>>> issues of meritocracy, naming and source.
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Jan
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Regards
>>
>> Dave Butler
>> butlerdi-at-pharm2phork-dot-org
>>
>> Also on Skype as butlerdi
>>
>> Get Skype here http://www.skype.com/download.html
>>
>>
>> **********************************************************************
>> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
>> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
>> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
>> the system manager.
>>
>> This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
>> MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
>>
>> www.mimesweeper.com
>> **********************************************************************
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Regards
>
> Dave Butler
> butlerdi-at-pharm2phork-dot-org
>
> Also on Skype as butlerdi
>
> Get Skype here http://www.skype.com/download.html
>
>
> **********************************************************************
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
> the system manager.
>
> This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
> MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
>
> www.mimesweeper.com
> **********************************************************************
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Dave butlerdi <bu...@gmail.com>.
Jan,
Sent the last reply before seeing your post. If you wish to use the name for
commercial ventures by a few, then your project should not be an Apache
project. It really is that simple.
You are either a community project or not. If you are then leave the name to
the "Community". When you joined Apache you really lost all claim to
ownership of the project and will
and can expect this to be a benefit as well as in some ways a hinderance,
but that was your decision.
In order for a product such as this to gain acceptance you need a large
group of people and companies to promote the project. Naming your company
and web site after the project will keep this from happening on any real
scale.
Again just my .02€.
On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 10:17 PM, Dave butlerdi <bu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jan,
>
> A fairly recent edition to Apache was Jini from Sun. It entered Apache as
> River and has really had a hard time since coming to Apache, partially I
> suppose from the name
> change, but probably more due to politics and Suns direction with many of
> the ideas from Jini.
>
> I have been involved with many products coming out of Apache since it was
> founded, and the successful ones do try their best to garner and reflect the
> spirit of Apache in it's
> meritocracy and neutrality. You guys have a great thing going, look at
> http://rubyonrails.org/ecosystem and see how well these folks have done
> and look to do something similar.
>
> I am certain that you will end up in a much better position commercially
> taking this approach.
>
> It will do no good for anyone, especially us lowly users, if this thing
> gets forked and flounders.
>
> Again, just my .02€
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 10:08 PM, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Gianugo (and Dave from your +1 email),
>>
>> thanks, some meat, finally :) I'll just throw in some comments as I see
>> multiple issues becoming mixed together which makes discussion
>> a little trickier. I hope you and the others here can respond to my
>> response.
>>
>> On 8 Mar 2009, at 21:39, Gianugo Rabellino wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You are an Apache project and this just seems counter productive.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In which way exactly? Getting people paid to advance CouchDB?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I also
>>>>> think that several other projects have become entailed of this type of
>>>>> behaviour and had problems with Apache in the end.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We'd love to hear about past experiences so we can try and avoid
>>>> the same mistakes.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Jan,
>>>
>>> one of the core values of Apache is its neutrality. Our
>>> meritocracy-based system is one of a kind, and something that allows
>>> commercial endeavors to cooperate on neutral grounds. Think what IBM
>>> did with Tomcat and, later on, Sun did with Derby - you most
>>> definitely wouldn't have seen IBM cooperating on the "Sun Java Web
>>> Server", neither the opposite would have worked with "IBM Cloudscape".
>>>
>>
>> I have no experience with any of these projects.
>>
>>
>> Until not so long ago, one of the requests we used to ask projects in
>>> order for them to enter the ASF was to change name: that was seen as a
>>> way to ensure Apache would have been a fresh start on neutral grounds.
>>>
>>
>> That is totally understandable. I guess it didn't happen with CouchDB
>> because it was still "fresh" and did not enter the ASF from a commercial
>> background.
>>
>>
>> If you are to continue using the CouchDB name in your company, I'm not
>>> sure what the legal situation would be (it could be argued some
>>> trademark issues might be there) but, as you can see, you are likely
>>> to piss people off by sending the message that you are the ones
>>> "owning" the project which, in Apache terms, is a no-no.
>>>
>>
>> Chris said, and then I repeated that we are addressing the naming
>> issue :) We do not want to get into legal trouble nor do we want to
>> piss anyone off. I hope the fact that we're discussing this here proves
>> we mean it :)
>>
>>
>> You are
>>> absolutely fine in having commercial objectives and, ultimately, pay
>>> the bills, but the Wordpress case is not applicable here: Wordpress
>>> chose to walk on his own legs, hosting their project within their own
>>> infrastructure and no leverage on existing communities and branding.
>>>
>>
>> I didn't bring up Wordpress. Noah did and he is not part of the company.
>>
>>
>> With my ASF hat on, I see this move as potentially harmful, as it
>>> sends the message that you are leveraging Apache, which requires this
>>> community to remain meritocratic and neutral, while owning the project
>>> as you are the core developers.
>>>
>>
>> Chris and I are two out of seven committers and two out of three PMC
>> members. With any of my hats on, I can only hope for and see the ratio
>> shifting towards the community in the future.
>>
>> The naming-issue is separate from the meritocracy.
>>
>> What other issues are there?
>>
>>
>> Believe me - you are entering muddy waters here as any decision on
>>> future directions and/or committership is likely to be scrutinized
>>> anyways as people might and will wonder if you are able to stick to
>>> community values or if, ultimately, you will be driven by your own
>>> agendas. There is nothing you can do other than proving your worth -
>>> which I'm sure you will, but at least you shouldn't make your life
>>> even more difficult. :)
>>>
>>
>> As I wrote in the introductory email, I'm in the exact same position for
>> some time now and so is Chris, the fact that there is now a company
>> doesn't change much from our point of view. Except maybe we have
>> even more time to contribute to the project :)
>>
>> Chris and I agree that our commercial endeavour would be all void
>> if it weren't for healthy open source project & community and anything
>> we'd do to compromise this would be silly. We strongly believe in open
>> source and we wouldn't have dared to set out on this if the CouchDB
>> community would not be working so well.
>>
>>
>> Changing a company name is one of the hardest thing to do - I suggest
>>> you reconsider as soon as possible as it might be too late later down
>>> the road.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks again for the feedback, we hope to be able to address all
>> issues of meritocracy, naming and source.
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>> Jan
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Regards
>
> Dave Butler
> butlerdi-at-pharm2phork-dot-org
>
> Also on Skype as butlerdi
>
> Get Skype here http://www.skype.com/download.html
>
>
> **********************************************************************
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
> the system manager.
>
> This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
> MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
>
> www.mimesweeper.com
> **********************************************************************
>
--
Regards
Dave Butler
butlerdi-at-pharm2phork-dot-org
Also on Skype as butlerdi
Get Skype here http://www.skype.com/download.html
**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.
This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
www.mimesweeper.com
**********************************************************************
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Gianugo Rabellino <gi...@gmail.com>.
Jan,
On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 10:08 PM, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 8 Mar 2009, at 21:39, Gianugo Rabellino wrote:
>
>> Until not so long ago, one of the requests we used to ask projects in
>> order for them to enter the ASF was to change name: that was seen as a
>> way to ensure Apache would have been a fresh start on neutral grounds.
>
> That is totally understandable. I guess it didn't happen with CouchDB
> because it was still "fresh" and did not enter the ASF from a commercial
> background.
Yup, but still the trademark issue that has been brought here (with
you guys contending there wasn't such a thing) makes me wonder if it
wouldn't be the case to stick to the original policy - fixing CouchDB
in the meantime.
>> If you are to continue using the CouchDB name in your company, I'm not
>> sure what the legal situation would be (it could be argued some
>> trademark issues might be there) but, as you can see, you are likely
>> to piss people off by sending the message that you are the ones
>> "owning" the project which, in Apache terms, is a no-no.
>
> Chris said, and then I repeated that we are addressing the naming
> issue :) We do not want to get into legal trouble nor do we want to
> piss anyone off. I hope the fact that we're discussing this here proves
> we mean it :)
I have no doubt about your good faith and willingness to help. I'm
looking forward to what you will be doing to ensure this problem goes
away.
>> You are
>> absolutely fine in having commercial objectives and, ultimately, pay
>> the bills, but the Wordpress case is not applicable here: Wordpress
>> chose to walk on his own legs, hosting their project within their own
>> infrastructure and no leverage on existing communities and branding.
>
> I didn't bring up Wordpress. Noah did and he is not part of the company.
Yeah, sorry for the mixup. Point still stands, though. :)
> The naming-issue is separate from the meritocracy.
Actually, it's not. It's hard to have meritocracy without neutrality,
and neutrality is hard to achieve without a sense of shared ownership
of the project. Names are important, as having a "commercial arm" of
CouchDB owning the very name of it would mean people would feel they'd
be contributing to a project which is not, and will not, be theirs at
any point in time, effectively turning contributions into free labor.
So, the naming issue impairs meritocracy.
> What other issues are there?
None whatsoever - actually I wish you the best of luck with your endeavor.
Ciao,
--
Gianugo Rabellino
Sourcesense, making sense of Open Source: http://www.sourcesense.com
(blogging at http://www.rabellino.it/blog/)
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org>.
On 8 Mar 2009, at 22:17, Dave butlerdi wrote:
> A fairly recent edition to Apache was Jini from Sun. It entered
> Apache as
> River and has really had a hard time since coming to Apache,
> partially I
> suppose from the name
> change, but probably more due to politics and Suns direction with
> many of
> the ideas from Jini.
I understand that the we need to be cautious to not create a similar
situation,
but we're not Sun, we don't have a majority to drive this project and
we have
no interest in not getting the best for CouchDB. I don't really see
how the
example applies.
> I have been involved with many products coming out of Apache since
> it was
> founded, and the successful ones do try their best to garner and
> reflect the
> spirit of Apache in it's
> meritocracy and neutrality. You guys have a great thing going, look at
> http://rubyonrails.org/ecosystem and see how well these folks have
> done and
> look to do something similar.
>
> I am certain that you will end up in a much better position
> commercially
> taking this approach.
>
> It will do no good for anyone, especially us lowly users, if this
> thing gets
> forked and flounders.
The last the paragraphs, I couldn't agree more.
Cheers
Jan
--
>
> Again, just my .02€
>
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 10:08 PM, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Gianugo (and Dave from your +1 email),
>>
>> thanks, some meat, finally :) I'll just throw in some comments as I
>> see
>> multiple issues becoming mixed together which makes discussion
>> a little trickier. I hope you and the others here can respond to my
>> response.
>>
>> On 8 Mar 2009, at 21:39, Gianugo Rabellino wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You are an Apache project and this just seems counter productive.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In which way exactly? Getting people paid to advance CouchDB?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I also
>>>>> think that several other projects have become entailed of this
>>>>> type of
>>>>> behaviour and had problems with Apache in the end.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We'd love to hear about past experiences so we can try and avoid
>>>> the same mistakes.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Jan,
>>>
>>> one of the core values of Apache is its neutrality. Our
>>> meritocracy-based system is one of a kind, and something that allows
>>> commercial endeavors to cooperate on neutral grounds. Think what IBM
>>> did with Tomcat and, later on, Sun did with Derby - you most
>>> definitely wouldn't have seen IBM cooperating on the "Sun Java Web
>>> Server", neither the opposite would have worked with "IBM
>>> Cloudscape".
>>>
>>
>> I have no experience with any of these projects.
>>
>>
>> Until not so long ago, one of the requests we used to ask projects in
>>> order for them to enter the ASF was to change name: that was seen
>>> as a
>>> way to ensure Apache would have been a fresh start on neutral
>>> grounds.
>>>
>>
>> That is totally understandable. I guess it didn't happen with CouchDB
>> because it was still "fresh" and did not enter the ASF from a
>> commercial
>> background.
>>
>>
>> If you are to continue using the CouchDB name in your company, I'm
>> not
>>> sure what the legal situation would be (it could be argued some
>>> trademark issues might be there) but, as you can see, you are likely
>>> to piss people off by sending the message that you are the ones
>>> "owning" the project which, in Apache terms, is a no-no.
>>>
>>
>> Chris said, and then I repeated that we are addressing the naming
>> issue :) We do not want to get into legal trouble nor do we want to
>> piss anyone off. I hope the fact that we're discussing this here
>> proves
>> we mean it :)
>>
>>
>> You are
>>> absolutely fine in having commercial objectives and, ultimately, pay
>>> the bills, but the Wordpress case is not applicable here: Wordpress
>>> chose to walk on his own legs, hosting their project within their
>>> own
>>> infrastructure and no leverage on existing communities and branding.
>>>
>>
>> I didn't bring up Wordpress. Noah did and he is not part of the
>> company.
>>
>>
>> With my ASF hat on, I see this move as potentially harmful, as it
>>> sends the message that you are leveraging Apache, which requires
>>> this
>>> community to remain meritocratic and neutral, while owning the
>>> project
>>> as you are the core developers.
>>>
>>
>> Chris and I are two out of seven committers and two out of three PMC
>> members. With any of my hats on, I can only hope for and see the
>> ratio
>> shifting towards the community in the future.
>>
>> The naming-issue is separate from the meritocracy.
>>
>> What other issues are there?
>>
>>
>> Believe me - you are entering muddy waters here as any decision on
>>> future directions and/or committership is likely to be scrutinized
>>> anyways as people might and will wonder if you are able to stick to
>>> community values or if, ultimately, you will be driven by your own
>>> agendas. There is nothing you can do other than proving your worth -
>>> which I'm sure you will, but at least you shouldn't make your life
>>> even more difficult. :)
>>>
>>
>> As I wrote in the introductory email, I'm in the exact same
>> position for
>> some time now and so is Chris, the fact that there is now a company
>> doesn't change much from our point of view. Except maybe we have
>> even more time to contribute to the project :)
>>
>> Chris and I agree that our commercial endeavour would be all void
>> if it weren't for healthy open source project & community and
>> anything
>> we'd do to compromise this would be silly. We strongly believe in
>> open
>> source and we wouldn't have dared to set out on this if the CouchDB
>> community would not be working so well.
>>
>>
>> Changing a company name is one of the hardest thing to do - I suggest
>>> you reconsider as soon as possible as it might be too late later
>>> down
>>> the road.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks again for the feedback, we hope to be able to address all
>> issues of meritocracy, naming and source.
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>> Jan
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Regards
>
> Dave Butler
> butlerdi-at-pharm2phork-dot-org
>
> Also on Skype as butlerdi
>
> Get Skype here http://www.skype.com/download.html
>
>
> **********************************************************************
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
> the system manager.
>
> This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
> MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
>
> www.mimesweeper.com
> **********************************************************************
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Dave butlerdi <bu...@gmail.com>.
Jan,
A fairly recent edition to Apache was Jini from Sun. It entered Apache as
River and has really had a hard time since coming to Apache, partially I
suppose from the name
change, but probably more due to politics and Suns direction with many of
the ideas from Jini.
I have been involved with many products coming out of Apache since it was
founded, and the successful ones do try their best to garner and reflect the
spirit of Apache in it's
meritocracy and neutrality. You guys have a great thing going, look at
http://rubyonrails.org/ecosystem and see how well these folks have done and
look to do something similar.
I am certain that you will end up in a much better position commercially
taking this approach.
It will do no good for anyone, especially us lowly users, if this thing gets
forked and flounders.
Again, just my .02€
On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 10:08 PM, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi Gianugo (and Dave from your +1 email),
>
> thanks, some meat, finally :) I'll just throw in some comments as I see
> multiple issues becoming mixed together which makes discussion
> a little trickier. I hope you and the others here can respond to my
> response.
>
> On 8 Mar 2009, at 21:39, Gianugo Rabellino wrote:
>
> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> You are an Apache project and this just seems counter productive.
>>>>
>>>
>>> In which way exactly? Getting people paid to advance CouchDB?
>>>
>>>
>>> I also
>>>> think that several other projects have become entailed of this type of
>>>> behaviour and had problems with Apache in the end.
>>>>
>>>
>>> We'd love to hear about past experiences so we can try and avoid
>>> the same mistakes.
>>>
>>
>> Jan,
>>
>> one of the core values of Apache is its neutrality. Our
>> meritocracy-based system is one of a kind, and something that allows
>> commercial endeavors to cooperate on neutral grounds. Think what IBM
>> did with Tomcat and, later on, Sun did with Derby - you most
>> definitely wouldn't have seen IBM cooperating on the "Sun Java Web
>> Server", neither the opposite would have worked with "IBM Cloudscape".
>>
>
> I have no experience with any of these projects.
>
>
> Until not so long ago, one of the requests we used to ask projects in
>> order for them to enter the ASF was to change name: that was seen as a
>> way to ensure Apache would have been a fresh start on neutral grounds.
>>
>
> That is totally understandable. I guess it didn't happen with CouchDB
> because it was still "fresh" and did not enter the ASF from a commercial
> background.
>
>
> If you are to continue using the CouchDB name in your company, I'm not
>> sure what the legal situation would be (it could be argued some
>> trademark issues might be there) but, as you can see, you are likely
>> to piss people off by sending the message that you are the ones
>> "owning" the project which, in Apache terms, is a no-no.
>>
>
> Chris said, and then I repeated that we are addressing the naming
> issue :) We do not want to get into legal trouble nor do we want to
> piss anyone off. I hope the fact that we're discussing this here proves
> we mean it :)
>
>
> You are
>> absolutely fine in having commercial objectives and, ultimately, pay
>> the bills, but the Wordpress case is not applicable here: Wordpress
>> chose to walk on his own legs, hosting their project within their own
>> infrastructure and no leverage on existing communities and branding.
>>
>
> I didn't bring up Wordpress. Noah did and he is not part of the company.
>
>
> With my ASF hat on, I see this move as potentially harmful, as it
>> sends the message that you are leveraging Apache, which requires this
>> community to remain meritocratic and neutral, while owning the project
>> as you are the core developers.
>>
>
> Chris and I are two out of seven committers and two out of three PMC
> members. With any of my hats on, I can only hope for and see the ratio
> shifting towards the community in the future.
>
> The naming-issue is separate from the meritocracy.
>
> What other issues are there?
>
>
> Believe me - you are entering muddy waters here as any decision on
>> future directions and/or committership is likely to be scrutinized
>> anyways as people might and will wonder if you are able to stick to
>> community values or if, ultimately, you will be driven by your own
>> agendas. There is nothing you can do other than proving your worth -
>> which I'm sure you will, but at least you shouldn't make your life
>> even more difficult. :)
>>
>
> As I wrote in the introductory email, I'm in the exact same position for
> some time now and so is Chris, the fact that there is now a company
> doesn't change much from our point of view. Except maybe we have
> even more time to contribute to the project :)
>
> Chris and I agree that our commercial endeavour would be all void
> if it weren't for healthy open source project & community and anything
> we'd do to compromise this would be silly. We strongly believe in open
> source and we wouldn't have dared to set out on this if the CouchDB
> community would not be working so well.
>
>
> Changing a company name is one of the hardest thing to do - I suggest
>> you reconsider as soon as possible as it might be too late later down
>> the road.
>>
>
> Thanks again for the feedback, we hope to be able to address all
> issues of meritocracy, naming and source.
>
>
> Cheers
> Jan
> --
>
>
>
--
Regards
Dave Butler
butlerdi-at-pharm2phork-dot-org
Also on Skype as butlerdi
Get Skype here http://www.skype.com/download.html
**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.
This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
www.mimesweeper.com
**********************************************************************
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org>.
Hi Gianugo (and Dave from your +1 email),
thanks, some meat, finally :) I'll just throw in some comments as I see
multiple issues becoming mixed together which makes discussion
a little trickier. I hope you and the others here can respond to my
response.
On 8 Mar 2009, at 21:39, Gianugo Rabellino wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>>> You are an Apache project and this just seems counter productive.
>>
>> In which way exactly? Getting people paid to advance CouchDB?
>>
>>
>>> I also
>>> think that several other projects have become entailed of this
>>> type of
>>> behaviour and had problems with Apache in the end.
>>
>> We'd love to hear about past experiences so we can try and avoid
>> the same mistakes.
>
> Jan,
>
> one of the core values of Apache is its neutrality. Our
> meritocracy-based system is one of a kind, and something that allows
> commercial endeavors to cooperate on neutral grounds. Think what IBM
> did with Tomcat and, later on, Sun did with Derby - you most
> definitely wouldn't have seen IBM cooperating on the "Sun Java Web
> Server", neither the opposite would have worked with "IBM Cloudscape".
I have no experience with any of these projects.
> Until not so long ago, one of the requests we used to ask projects in
> order for them to enter the ASF was to change name: that was seen as a
> way to ensure Apache would have been a fresh start on neutral grounds.
That is totally understandable. I guess it didn't happen with CouchDB
because it was still "fresh" and did not enter the ASF from a commercial
background.
> If you are to continue using the CouchDB name in your company, I'm not
> sure what the legal situation would be (it could be argued some
> trademark issues might be there) but, as you can see, you are likely
> to piss people off by sending the message that you are the ones
> "owning" the project which, in Apache terms, is a no-no.
Chris said, and then I repeated that we are addressing the naming
issue :) We do not want to get into legal trouble nor do we want to
piss anyone off. I hope the fact that we're discussing this here proves
we mean it :)
> You are
> absolutely fine in having commercial objectives and, ultimately, pay
> the bills, but the Wordpress case is not applicable here: Wordpress
> chose to walk on his own legs, hosting their project within their own
> infrastructure and no leverage on existing communities and branding.
I didn't bring up Wordpress. Noah did and he is not part of the company.
> With my ASF hat on, I see this move as potentially harmful, as it
> sends the message that you are leveraging Apache, which requires this
> community to remain meritocratic and neutral, while owning the project
> as you are the core developers.
Chris and I are two out of seven committers and two out of three PMC
members. With any of my hats on, I can only hope for and see the ratio
shifting towards the community in the future.
The naming-issue is separate from the meritocracy.
What other issues are there?
> Believe me - you are entering muddy waters here as any decision on
> future directions and/or committership is likely to be scrutinized
> anyways as people might and will wonder if you are able to stick to
> community values or if, ultimately, you will be driven by your own
> agendas. There is nothing you can do other than proving your worth -
> which I'm sure you will, but at least you shouldn't make your life
> even more difficult. :)
As I wrote in the introductory email, I'm in the exact same position for
some time now and so is Chris, the fact that there is now a company
doesn't change much from our point of view. Except maybe we have
even more time to contribute to the project :)
Chris and I agree that our commercial endeavour would be all void
if it weren't for healthy open source project & community and anything
we'd do to compromise this would be silly. We strongly believe in open
source and we wouldn't have dared to set out on this if the CouchDB
community would not be working so well.
> Changing a company name is one of the hardest thing to do - I suggest
> you reconsider as soon as possible as it might be too late later down
> the road.
Thanks again for the feedback, we hope to be able to address all
issues of meritocracy, naming and source.
Cheers
Jan
--
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Gianugo Rabellino <gi...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
>> You are an Apache project and this just seems counter productive.
>
> In which way exactly? Getting people paid to advance CouchDB?
>
>
>> I also
>> think that several other projects have become entailed of this type of
>> behaviour and had problems with Apache in the end.
>
> We'd love to hear about past experiences so we can try and avoid
> the same mistakes.
Jan,
one of the core values of Apache is its neutrality. Our
meritocracy-based system is one of a kind, and something that allows
commercial endeavors to cooperate on neutral grounds. Think what IBM
did with Tomcat and, later on, Sun did with Derby - you most
definitely wouldn't have seen IBM cooperating on the "Sun Java Web
Server", neither the opposite would have worked with "IBM Cloudscape".
Until not so long ago, one of the requests we used to ask projects in
order for them to enter the ASF was to change name: that was seen as a
way to ensure Apache would have been a fresh start on neutral grounds.
If you are to continue using the CouchDB name in your company, I'm not
sure what the legal situation would be (it could be argued some
trademark issues might be there) but, as you can see, you are likely
to piss people off by sending the message that you are the ones
"owning" the project which, in Apache terms, is a no-no. You are
absolutely fine in having commercial objectives and, ultimately, pay
the bills, but the Wordpress case is not applicable here: Wordpress
chose to walk on his own legs, hosting their project within their own
infrastructure and no leverage on existing communities and branding.
With my ASF hat on, I see this move as potentially harmful, as it
sends the message that you are leveraging Apache, which requires this
community to remain meritocratic and neutral, while owning the project
as you are the core developers.
Believe me - you are entering muddy waters here as any decision on
future directions and/or committership is likely to be scrutinized
anyways as people might and will wonder if you are able to stick to
community values or if, ultimately, you will be driven by your own
agendas. There is nothing you can do other than proving your worth -
which I'm sure you will, but at least you shouldn't make your life
even more difficult. :)
Changing a company name is one of the hardest thing to do - I suggest
you reconsider as soon as possible as it might be too late later down
the road.
Thanks,
--
Gianugo Rabellino
Sourcesense, making sense of Open Source: http://www.sourcesense.com
(blogging at http://www.rabellino.it/blog/)
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org>.
Hi Dave,
thanks for your feedback!
On 8 Mar 2009, at 20:23, Dave butlerdi wrote:
> Was quite suprised to see CouchDB Ltd on the slides from the Hadoop
> meeting
> in Berlin. Was unable to get up there but really think that this is
> a bad
> move.
> You are an Apache project and this just seems counter productive.
In which way exactly? Getting people paid to advance CouchDB?
> I also
> think that several other projects have become entailed of this type
> of
> behaviour and had problems with Apache in the end.
We'd love to hear about past experiences so we can try and avoid
the same mistakes.
> I do not commit, not am I interested in commercialising my
> experience with
> the product, but use Couch. However, to use the project name for
> commercail
> gain by a few does seem wrong.
Like Chris pointed out already, we'll be addressing this issue.
Cheers
Jan
--
> Why not follow the Ruby/Rails example and set
> up a community effort for the provision of services under the
> CouchDB name.
>
> Just my .02.
>
> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 6:44 PM, Matthieu Riou
> <ma...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 8:49 AM, Damien Katz <da...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Standard disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.
>>>
>>> The name of the official project is Apache CouchDB. I see CouchDB as
>> being
>>> like Linux, where (as far as I know anyone) is free to use the
>>> name. So,
>> IMO
>>> it is completely fair to name a company CouchDB Ltd. But it also
>>> means
>>> anyone else can name their company CouchDB LLC or The Real CouchDB
>>> Ltd.
>> This
>>> is a bigger problem. You don't have a defensible trademark.
>>>
>>
>> FWIW, the foundation has defended its project names as trademarks
>> in the
>> past, gently notifying companies that it'd be nicer if they didn't
>> use that
>> name (thinking of Tomcat and Wicket here for example). I don't know
>> how
>> that
>> would stand in court but it's never been necessary to go to a court
>> so far,
>> so I guess the point is moot.
>>
>> Matthieu
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> -Damien
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 8, 2009, at 12:41 PM, Chris Anderson wrote:
>>>
>>> Devs,
>>>>
>>>> I've felt the fair-competition argument a little on my own, so
>>>> hearing
>>>> it from other quarters gives it even greater weight. We're
>>>> discussing
>>>> ways to proceed that take into account the full community,
>>>> including
>>>> competitors (of which we hope to have many!)
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the perspective, everyone. We'll have more to announce
>>>> in
>>>> the next few days.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Chris
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Chris Anderson
>>>> http://jchris.mfdz.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Regards
>
> Dave Butler
> butlerdi-at-pharm2phork-dot-org
>
> Also on Skype as butlerdi
>
> Get Skype here http://www.skype.com/download.html
>
>
> **********************************************************************
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
> the system manager.
>
> This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
> MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
>
> www.mimesweeper.com
> **********************************************************************
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Dave butlerdi <bu...@gmail.com>.
Was quite suprised to see CouchDB Ltd on the slides from the Hadoop meeting
in Berlin. Was unable to get up there but really think that this is a bad
move.
You are an Apache project and this just seems counter productive. I also
think that several other projects have become entailed of this type of
behaviour and had problems with Apache in the end.
I do not commit, not am I interested in commercialising my experience with
the product, but use Couch. However, to use the project name for commercail
gain by a few does seem wrong. Why not follow the Ruby/Rails example and set
up a community effort for the provision of services under the CouchDB name.
Just my .02.
On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 6:44 PM, Matthieu Riou <ma...@gmail.com>wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 8:49 AM, Damien Katz <da...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Standard disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.
> >
> > The name of the official project is Apache CouchDB. I see CouchDB as
> being
> > like Linux, where (as far as I know anyone) is free to use the name. So,
> IMO
> > it is completely fair to name a company CouchDB Ltd. But it also means
> > anyone else can name their company CouchDB LLC or The Real CouchDB Ltd.
> This
> > is a bigger problem. You don't have a defensible trademark.
> >
>
> FWIW, the foundation has defended its project names as trademarks in the
> past, gently notifying companies that it'd be nicer if they didn't use that
> name (thinking of Tomcat and Wicket here for example). I don't know how
> that
> would stand in court but it's never been necessary to go to a court so far,
> so I guess the point is moot.
>
> Matthieu
>
>
>
> >
> > -Damien
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mar 8, 2009, at 12:41 PM, Chris Anderson wrote:
> >
> > Devs,
> >>
> >> I've felt the fair-competition argument a little on my own, so hearing
> >> it from other quarters gives it even greater weight. We're discussing
> >> ways to proceed that take into account the full community, including
> >> competitors (of which we hope to have many!)
> >>
> >> Thanks for the perspective, everyone. We'll have more to announce in
> >> the next few days.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Chris
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Chris Anderson
> >> http://jchris.mfdz.com
> >>
> >
> >
>
--
Regards
Dave Butler
butlerdi-at-pharm2phork-dot-org
Also on Skype as butlerdi
Get Skype here http://www.skype.com/download.html
**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.
This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.
www.mimesweeper.com
**********************************************************************
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Matthieu Riou <ma...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 8:49 AM, Damien Katz <da...@apache.org> wrote:
> Standard disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.
>
> The name of the official project is Apache CouchDB. I see CouchDB as being
> like Linux, where (as far as I know anyone) is free to use the name. So, IMO
> it is completely fair to name a company CouchDB Ltd. But it also means
> anyone else can name their company CouchDB LLC or The Real CouchDB Ltd. This
> is a bigger problem. You don't have a defensible trademark.
>
FWIW, the foundation has defended its project names as trademarks in the
past, gently notifying companies that it'd be nicer if they didn't use that
name (thinking of Tomcat and Wicket here for example). I don't know how that
would stand in court but it's never been necessary to go to a court so far,
so I guess the point is moot.
Matthieu
>
> -Damien
>
>
>
> On Mar 8, 2009, at 12:41 PM, Chris Anderson wrote:
>
> Devs,
>>
>> I've felt the fair-competition argument a little on my own, so hearing
>> it from other quarters gives it even greater weight. We're discussing
>> ways to proceed that take into account the full community, including
>> competitors (of which we hope to have many!)
>>
>> Thanks for the perspective, everyone. We'll have more to announce in
>> the next few days.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>> --
>> Chris Anderson
>> http://jchris.mfdz.com
>>
>
>
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Dean Landolt <de...@deanlandolt.com>.
On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Damien Katz <da...@apache.org> wrote:
> Standard disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.
>
> The name of the official project is Apache CouchDB. I see CouchDB as being
> like Linux, where (as far as I know anyone) is free to use the name. So, IMO
> it is completely fair to name a company CouchDB Ltd. But it also means
> anyone else can name their company CouchDB LLC or The Real CouchDB Ltd. This
> is a bigger problem. You don't have a defensible trademark.
I too am not a lawyer (but it's fun to pretend on the internets)...I have
studied this quite a bit though. And actually, there is a trademark held on
Linux, held by Linus, and it is enforced every so often...
He actually didn't want the mark, and never filed for it, but some prick
swooped in in the mid 90s and registered it, then started suing for
royalties. So eventually he had to swoop in and sue for control over it.
Nobody did much to enforce it until 2005 when they caught some flack for
sending out a bunch of letters demanding money to use the mark, but there
really is a *enforce it or lose it *provision in trademark law. It's all the
wikipedia page...a pretty interesting saga.
Has anyone registered a trademark on CouchDB yet? The Linux saga suggests
it's probably a good idea, and something Apache legal should be able to help
with. That's about the extent of my trademark knowledge, but if I had to
guess I'd say CouchDB Ltd. may be a little *too *close in order for Apache
to keep the mark, or at the very least there should be some sort of
sublicensing agreement and token fee.
Just my two cents -- in any event congrats to the couch ltd team! It's great
to see more folks making money working on what they love, to the benefit of
all of us!
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Damien Katz <da...@apache.org>.
Standard disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.
The name of the official project is Apache CouchDB. I see CouchDB as
being like Linux, where (as far as I know anyone) is free to use the
name. So, IMO it is completely fair to name a company CouchDB Ltd. But
it also means anyone else can name their company CouchDB LLC or The
Real CouchDB Ltd. This is a bigger problem. You don't have a
defensible trademark.
-Damien
On Mar 8, 2009, at 12:41 PM, Chris Anderson wrote:
> Devs,
>
> I've felt the fair-competition argument a little on my own, so hearing
> it from other quarters gives it even greater weight. We're discussing
> ways to proceed that take into account the full community, including
> competitors (of which we hope to have many!)
>
> Thanks for the perspective, everyone. We'll have more to announce in
> the next few days.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Chris
>
>
> --
> Chris Anderson
> http://jchris.mfdz.com
Re: Introduction couch.io (Was: Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.)
Posted by Robert Dionne <di...@dionne-associates.com>.
awesome!! Nice move. I really like the new site font, very readable.
Congrats again and best of luck,
Bob
Robert Dionne
Chief Programmer
dionne@dionne-associates.com
203.231.9961
On Mar 12, 2009, at 1:52 PM, Jan Lehnardt wrote:
> Dear CouchDB community (again),
>
> Thank you for the thought-provoking feedback about our
> commercial services announcement. We're glad so many
> people are happy to hear that CouchDB is getting commercial
> support. A number of people expressed concern about using
> the couchdb.com web address and doing business under the
> CouchDB name.
>
> We're pleased to announce couch.io, offering CouchDB support,
> training, hosting and development.
>
> For more information see http://couch.io/ or email Chris or me
> directly.
>
> --
>
> For those who missed the original announcement:
>
> Why a commercial entity? I (Jan) have been doing commercial
> CouchDB consulting for the last nine months and I simply can't
> keep up with the demand. So I started looking for partners. First,
> meet Francesco and Marcus of Erlang Training and Consulting.
> They are providing the same services we will provide for CouchDB,
> just for Erlang. With CouchDB written in Erlang, this couldn't be a
> better fit. Next up is Chris. I don't have to tell you how much of
> CouchDB's success is part of his work. He's also been working
> on CouchDB-related things only for the past months. couch.io is
> simply a way of organizing our efforts and fulfilling the enormous
> (really) demand for professional CouchDB services.
>
>
> Cheers (again)!
>
> Jan, Chris, Francesco & Marcus
> --
> http://couch.io/
>
>
> On 8 Mar 2009, at 17:41, Chris Anderson wrote:
>
>> Devs,
>>
>> I've felt the fair-competition argument a little on my own, so
>> hearing
>> it from other quarters gives it even greater weight. We're discussing
>> ways to proceed that take into account the full community, including
>> competitors (of which we hope to have many!)
>>
>> Thanks for the perspective, everyone. We'll have more to announce in
>> the next few days.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>> --
>> Chris Anderson
>> http://jchris.mfdz.com
>>
>
Re: Introduction couch.io (Was: Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.)
Posted by Dean Landolt <de...@deanlandolt.com>.
On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 1:52 PM, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
> Dear CouchDB community (again),
>
> Thank you for the thought-provoking feedback about our
> commercial services announcement. We're glad so many
> people are happy to hear that CouchDB is getting commercial
> support. A number of people expressed concern about using
> the couchdb.com web address and doing business under the
> CouchDB name.
>
> We're pleased to announce couch.io, offering CouchDB support,
> training, hosting and development.
>
> For more information see http://couch.io/ or email Chris or me
> directly.
>
> --
>
> For those who missed the original announcement:
>
> Why a commercial entity? I (Jan) have been doing commercial
> CouchDB consulting for the last nine months and I simply can't
> keep up with the demand. So I started looking for partners. First,
> meet Francesco and Marcus of Erlang Training and Consulting.
> They are providing the same services we will provide for CouchDB,
> just for Erlang. With CouchDB written in Erlang, this couldn't be a
> better fit. Next up is Chris. I don't have to tell you how much of
> CouchDB's success is part of his work. He's also been working
> on CouchDB-related things only for the past months. couch.io is
> simply a way of organizing our efforts and fulfilling the enormous
> (really) demand for professional CouchDB services.
>
>
> Cheers (again)!
>
> Jan, Chris, Francesco & Marcus
> --
> http://couch.io/
>
>
> On 8 Mar 2009, at 17:41, Chris Anderson wrote:
>
> Devs,
>>
>> I've felt the fair-competition argument a little on my own, so hearing
>> it from other quarters gives it even greater weight. We're discussing
>> ways to proceed that take into account the full community, including
>> competitors (of which we hope to have many!)
>>
>> Thanks for the perspective, everyone. We'll have more to announce in
>> the next few days.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>> --
>> Chris Anderson
>> http://jchris.mfdz.com
>>
>>
>
Awesome name, guys! I didn't realize there was an .io t, but that's even
slicker than using the couchdb.com domain.
Congrats again, and best of luck...
Dean
Re: Introduction couch.io (Was: Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.)
Posted by Paul Campbell <pa...@rushedsunlight.com>.
Definitely a cooler name, I think, and nice that it's a nod back to
the open source app, rather than the same name.
Great decision, great decision. Again ... wishes well!
Paul
Paul Campbell
paul@rushedsunlight.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
work http://www.contrast.ie
pleasure http://www.pabcas.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
+353 87 914 8162
Follow me on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/paulca
On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 6:22 PM, Avi Flax <av...@arc90.com> wrote:
> Jan, Chris, Francesco & Marcus:
>
> Congratulations on your new enterprise, I wish you the best of luck!
> And kudos for taking the concerns of the community seriously, and
> doing something about them. I'm sure that won't be forgotten. (And I
> agree that it's for the better for all involved.)
>
> --
> Avi Flax » Lead Technologist » Partner » Arc90 » http://arc90.com
>
Re: Introduction couch.io (Was: Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.)
Posted by Avi Flax <av...@arc90.com>.
Jan, Chris, Francesco & Marcus:
Congratulations on your new enterprise, I wish you the best of luck!
And kudos for taking the concerns of the community seriously, and
doing something about them. I'm sure that won't be forgotten. (And I
agree that it's for the better for all involved.)
--
Avi Flax » Lead Technologist » Partner » Arc90 » http://arc90.com
Introduction couch.io (Was: Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.)
Posted by Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org>.
Dear CouchDB community (again),
Thank you for the thought-provoking feedback about our
commercial services announcement. We're glad so many
people are happy to hear that CouchDB is getting commercial
support. A number of people expressed concern about using
the couchdb.com web address and doing business under the
CouchDB name.
We're pleased to announce couch.io, offering CouchDB support,
training, hosting and development.
For more information see http://couch.io/ or email Chris or me
directly.
--
For those who missed the original announcement:
Why a commercial entity? I (Jan) have been doing commercial
CouchDB consulting for the last nine months and I simply can't
keep up with the demand. So I started looking for partners. First,
meet Francesco and Marcus of Erlang Training and Consulting.
They are providing the same services we will provide for CouchDB,
just for Erlang. With CouchDB written in Erlang, this couldn't be a
better fit. Next up is Chris. I don't have to tell you how much of
CouchDB's success is part of his work. He's also been working
on CouchDB-related things only for the past months. couch.io is
simply a way of organizing our efforts and fulfilling the enormous
(really) demand for professional CouchDB services.
Cheers (again)!
Jan, Chris, Francesco & Marcus
--
http://couch.io/
On 8 Mar 2009, at 17:41, Chris Anderson wrote:
> Devs,
>
> I've felt the fair-competition argument a little on my own, so hearing
> it from other quarters gives it even greater weight. We're discussing
> ways to proceed that take into account the full community, including
> competitors (of which we hope to have many!)
>
> Thanks for the perspective, everyone. We'll have more to announce in
> the next few days.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Chris
>
>
> --
> Chris Anderson
> http://jchris.mfdz.com
>
Introduction couch.io (Was: Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.)
Posted by Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org>.
Dear CouchDB community (again),
Thank you for the thought-provoking feedback about our
commercial services announcement. We're glad so many
people are happy to hear that CouchDB is getting commercial
support. A number of people expressed concern about using
the couchdb.com web address and doing business under the
CouchDB name.
We're pleased to announce couch.io, offering CouchDB support,
training, hosting and development.
For more information see http://couch.io/ or email Chris or me
directly.
--
For those who missed the original announcement:
Why a commercial entity? I (Jan) have been doing commercial
CouchDB consulting for the last nine months and I simply can't
keep up with the demand. So I started looking for partners. First,
meet Francesco and Marcus of Erlang Training and Consulting.
They are providing the same services we will provide for CouchDB,
just for Erlang. With CouchDB written in Erlang, this couldn't be a
better fit. Next up is Chris. I don't have to tell you how much of
CouchDB's success is part of his work. He's also been working
on CouchDB-related things only for the past months. couch.io is
simply a way of organizing our efforts and fulfilling the enormous
(really) demand for professional CouchDB services.
Cheers (again)!
Jan, Chris, Francesco & Marcus
--
http://couch.io/
On 8 Mar 2009, at 17:41, Chris Anderson wrote:
> Devs,
>
> I've felt the fair-competition argument a little on my own, so hearing
> it from other quarters gives it even greater weight. We're discussing
> ways to proceed that take into account the full community, including
> competitors (of which we hope to have many!)
>
> Thanks for the perspective, everyone. We'll have more to announce in
> the next few days.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Chris
>
>
> --
> Chris Anderson
> http://jchris.mfdz.com
>
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Chris Anderson <jc...@apache.org>.
Devs,
I've felt the fair-competition argument a little on my own, so hearing
it from other quarters gives it even greater weight. We're discussing
ways to proceed that take into account the full community, including
competitors (of which we hope to have many!)
Thanks for the perspective, everyone. We'll have more to announce in
the next few days.
Cheers,
Chris
--
Chris Anderson
http://jchris.mfdz.com
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Patrick Antivackis <pa...@gmail.com>.
>
> After Anthony's email, I'm starting to feel my opinion shift.
>
It's Patrick ;)
> However, I think this would only apply if Apache held rights to the name.
>
Thats' why it's better to ask legals from ASF
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org>.
On Sun, Mar 08, 2009 at 04:36:40PM +0100, Patrick Antivackis wrote:
> 2. You may not incorporate an Apache product name into the name of your
> company or software product name. If you have a software product that works
> with an Apache software product, it is suggested that you use terms such as
> "<product name> for Apache Tomcat" or "<product name> powered by Apache
> Tomcat". You may not call your product "Apache <something<" or "Tomcat
> <something>".
After Anthony's email, I'm starting to feel my opinion shift.
However, I think this would only apply if Apache held rights to the name.
--
Noah Slater, http://tumbolia.org/nslater
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Patrick Antivackis <pa...@gmail.com>.
Hi Jan,
Great news, I hope you lot of success
> I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you here.
>
> It's not unheard of for open source projects to evolve like this, see
> WordPress.
>
> --
> Noah Slater, http://tumbolia.org/nslater
>
Sure Noah, but Wordpress is not as ASF project, to outline what Benoit said,
Jan, you should check with ASF legals first as in this document :
http://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/trademarks.html (still said as draft)
there is in the "Proper Usage of Apache Product Names " section :
2. You may not incorporate an Apache product name into the name of your
company or software product name. If you have a software product that works
with an Apache software product, it is suggested that you use terms such as
"<product name> for Apache Tomcat" or "<product name> powered by Apache
Tomcat". You may not call your product "Apache <something<" or "Tomcat
<something>".
Regards
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org>.
On Sun, Mar 08, 2009 at 02:17:32PM +0100, Benoit Chesneau wrote:
> But I think this is unfair to use couchdb name as a company and using
> the "couchdb.com" as website.
I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you here.
It's not unheard of for open source projects to evolve like this, see WordPress.
--
Noah Slater, http://tumbolia.org/nslater
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Mahesh Paolini-Subramanya <ma...@aptela.com>.
I have to agree with Antony/Benoit here. Again, I'm quite aware of
all the opposing examples, but in the end I have a bit of a
philosophical issue vis-a-vis having to recommend CouchDB.org vs
CouchDB.com, etc.
Of course, obligatory caveats apply all over the place (I appreciate
the work Jan et. al have put in, we're strongly (if somewhat silently)
using CouchDB across most of our application base, etc. etc.)
Cheers
---
Mahesh Paolini-Subramanya
CTO, Aptela Inc.
(703.386.1500 x9100)
http://www.aptela.com
On Mar 8, 2009, at 11:33 AM, Antony Blakey wrote:
>
> On 08/03/2009, at 11:47 PM, Benoit Chesneau wrote:
>
>>
> <snip>
>
>> That said. I just would like to add i'm not against such service.
>> That's not the point. I like this idee and I hope it will work for
>> you. What I dislike, and I'm strongly against it, is that you use
>> couchdb name for **your** service. For me that mean i have to
>> reconsider the way I endorse couchdb in my projects and I feel bad. I
>> really hope you don't already make any legal administrative stuff
>> about it and that your are ok to change/think about another name.
>
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Antony Blakey <an...@gmail.com>.
On 09/03/2009, at 2:14 AM, Damien Katz wrote:
>> To date I have had a 'Built with CouchDB' link on every page.
>> Unfortunately, having a company called CouchDB Ltd, at couchdb.com
>> turns that link into an advertisement for a competitor to our
>> consultancy and development business in this space - specifically,
>> the space defined by our use of CouchDB (albeit a branch version).
>> We feel this way because co-opting the name and domain name for a
>> consultancy business is a form of implicit endorsement, so we will
>> no longer be including such a link, nor promoting CouchDB. This
>> will be an ongoing problem, because simply mentioning the name
>> advertises a competitor. C'est la vie.
>
> You should link to couchdb.apache.org, that's the official Apache
> project website. The couchdb.org couchdb.net and couchdb.com
> redirects are just convenience.
I see that the underlying issue might be resolved, and I note that Jan
and Chris are acting in good faith.
Just to address this particular response however - in a commercial
context, it's the name that is at issue. Our links were to
couchdb.apache.org, but users seeing 'CouchDB' will regard a company
called 'CouchDB Ltd' as the authoritative source of expertise. Add the
fact that two of the principles are commiters, and authors of the
book, and there's just too much commercial advantage arrayed against
us for us to take the risk. The domain name issue (couchdb.com) is
related to that.
We would like to see couchdb.{com,.org,.net} be permanent redirects to
couchdb.apache.org, and Chris and Jan et al competing without the
benefit of the Name.
BYW, the reason this is such an issue is because I can imaging the
CouchDB having significant brand identification.
Antony Blakey
--------------------------
CTO, Linkuistics Pty Ltd
Ph: 0438 840 787
The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way
that will allow a solution
-- Bertrand Russell
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Antony Blakey <an...@gmail.com>.
On 09/03/2009, at 2:14 AM, Damien Katz wrote:
>> To date I have had a 'Built with CouchDB' link on every page.
>> Unfortunately, having a company called CouchDB Ltd, at couchdb.com
>> turns that link into an advertisement for a competitor to our
>> consultancy and development business in this space - specifically,
>> the space defined by our use of CouchDB (albeit a branch version).
>> We feel this way because co-opting the name and domain name for a
>> consultancy business is a form of implicit endorsement, so we will
>> no longer be including such a link, nor promoting CouchDB. This
>> will be an ongoing problem, because simply mentioning the name
>> advertises a competitor. C'est la vie.
>
> You should link to couchdb.apache.org, that's the official Apache
> project website. The couchdb.org couchdb.net and couchdb.com
> redirects are just convenience.
I see that the underlying issue might be resolved, and I note that Jan
and Chris are acting in good faith.
Just to address this particular response however - in a commercial
context, it's the name that is at issue. Our links were to
couchdb.apache.org, but users seeing 'CouchDB' will regard a company
called 'CouchDB Ltd' as the authoritative source of expertise. Add the
fact that two of the principles are commiters, and authors of the
book, and there's just too much commercial advantage arrayed against
us for us to take the risk. The domain name issue (couchdb.com) is
related to that.
We would like to see couchdb.{com,.org,.net} be permanent redirects to
couchdb.apache.org, and Chris and Jan et al competing without the
benefit of the Name.
BYW, the reason this is such an issue is because I can imaging the
CouchDB having significant brand identification.
Antony Blakey
--------------------------
CTO, Linkuistics Pty Ltd
Ph: 0438 840 787
The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way
that will allow a solution
-- Bertrand Russell
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Damien Katz <da...@apache.org>.
On Mar 8, 2009, at 11:33 AM, Antony Blakey wrote:
>
> On 08/03/2009, at 11:47 PM, Benoit Chesneau wrote:
>
>> Launching such service is a good idee, and I would say "bravo".
>
> Indeed, a commercial culture around CouchDB is a good thing when
> trying to sell this technology.
>
>> But I think this is unfair to use couchdb name as a company and using
>> the "couchdb.com" as website. Unfair for all other projects coming or
>> existing that (would) provide such service or any commercial service
>> based on couchdb.
>
> <snip>
>
>> That said. I just would like to add i'm not against such service.
>> That's not the point. I like this idee and I hope it will work for
>> you. What I dislike, and I'm strongly against it, is that you use
>> couchdb name for **your** service. For me that mean i have to
>> reconsider the way I endorse couchdb in my projects and I feel bad. I
>> really hope you don't already make any legal administrative stuff
>> about it and that your are ok to change/think about another name.
>
> This issue has had an immediate impact on my first deployed CouchDB
> project.
>
> To date I have had a 'Built with CouchDB' link on every page.
> Unfortunately, having a company called CouchDB Ltd, at couchdb.com
> turns that link into an advertisement for a competitor to our
> consultancy and development business in this space - specifically,
> the space defined by our use of CouchDB (albeit a branch version).
> We feel this way because co-opting the name and domain name for a
> consultancy business is a form of implicit endorsement, so we will
> no longer be including such a link, nor promoting CouchDB. This will
> be an ongoing problem, because simply mentioning the name advertises
> a competitor. C'est la vie.
You should link to couchdb.apache.org, that's the official Apache
project website. The couchdb.org couchdb.net and couchdb.com redirects
are just convenience.
-Damien
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Damien Katz <da...@apache.org>.
On Mar 8, 2009, at 11:33 AM, Antony Blakey wrote:
>
> On 08/03/2009, at 11:47 PM, Benoit Chesneau wrote:
>
>> Launching such service is a good idee, and I would say "bravo".
>
> Indeed, a commercial culture around CouchDB is a good thing when
> trying to sell this technology.
>
>> But I think this is unfair to use couchdb name as a company and using
>> the "couchdb.com" as website. Unfair for all other projects coming or
>> existing that (would) provide such service or any commercial service
>> based on couchdb.
>
> <snip>
>
>> That said. I just would like to add i'm not against such service.
>> That's not the point. I like this idee and I hope it will work for
>> you. What I dislike, and I'm strongly against it, is that you use
>> couchdb name for **your** service. For me that mean i have to
>> reconsider the way I endorse couchdb in my projects and I feel bad. I
>> really hope you don't already make any legal administrative stuff
>> about it and that your are ok to change/think about another name.
>
> This issue has had an immediate impact on my first deployed CouchDB
> project.
>
> To date I have had a 'Built with CouchDB' link on every page.
> Unfortunately, having a company called CouchDB Ltd, at couchdb.com
> turns that link into an advertisement for a competitor to our
> consultancy and development business in this space - specifically,
> the space defined by our use of CouchDB (albeit a branch version).
> We feel this way because co-opting the name and domain name for a
> consultancy business is a form of implicit endorsement, so we will
> no longer be including such a link, nor promoting CouchDB. This will
> be an ongoing problem, because simply mentioning the name advertises
> a competitor. C'est la vie.
You should link to couchdb.apache.org, that's the official Apache
project website. The couchdb.org couchdb.net and couchdb.com redirects
are just convenience.
-Damien
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Mahesh Paolini-Subramanya <ma...@aptela.com>.
I have to agree with Antony/Benoit here. Again, I'm quite aware of
all the opposing examples, but in the end I have a bit of a
philosophical issue vis-a-vis having to recommend CouchDB.org vs
CouchDB.com, etc.
Of course, obligatory caveats apply all over the place (I appreciate
the work Jan et. al have put in, we're strongly (if somewhat silently)
using CouchDB across most of our application base, etc. etc.)
Cheers
---
Mahesh Paolini-Subramanya
CTO, Aptela Inc.
(703.386.1500 x9100)
http://www.aptela.com
On Mar 8, 2009, at 11:33 AM, Antony Blakey wrote:
>
> On 08/03/2009, at 11:47 PM, Benoit Chesneau wrote:
>
>>
> <snip>
>
>> That said. I just would like to add i'm not against such service.
>> That's not the point. I like this idee and I hope it will work for
>> you. What I dislike, and I'm strongly against it, is that you use
>> couchdb name for **your** service. For me that mean i have to
>> reconsider the way I endorse couchdb in my projects and I feel bad. I
>> really hope you don't already make any legal administrative stuff
>> about it and that your are ok to change/think about another name.
>
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Antony Blakey <an...@gmail.com>.
On 08/03/2009, at 11:47 PM, Benoit Chesneau wrote:
> Launching such service is a good idee, and I would say "bravo".
Indeed, a commercial culture around CouchDB is a good thing when
trying to sell this technology.
> But I think this is unfair to use couchdb name as a company and using
> the "couchdb.com" as website. Unfair for all other projects coming or
> existing that (would) provide such service or any commercial service
> based on couchdb.
<snip>
> That said. I just would like to add i'm not against such service.
> That's not the point. I like this idee and I hope it will work for
> you. What I dislike, and I'm strongly against it, is that you use
> couchdb name for **your** service. For me that mean i have to
> reconsider the way I endorse couchdb in my projects and I feel bad. I
> really hope you don't already make any legal administrative stuff
> about it and that your are ok to change/think about another name.
This issue has had an immediate impact on my first deployed CouchDB
project.
To date I have had a 'Built with CouchDB' link on every page.
Unfortunately, having a company called CouchDB Ltd, at couchdb.com
turns that link into an advertisement for a competitor to our
consultancy and development business in this space - specifically, the
space defined by our use of CouchDB (albeit a branch version). We feel
this way because co-opting the name and domain name for a consultancy
business is a form of implicit endorsement, so we will no longer be
including such a link, nor promoting CouchDB. This will be an ongoing
problem, because simply mentioning the name advertises a competitor.
C'est la vie.
I understand the attraction - if I owned the name, I'd be tempted, and
I'm not being critical of Jan or Chris - I'm simply saying that this
is one immediate impact. I also have no basis for saying whether this
opinion will be widespread or not, nor whether it will have any
significant effect, but my company is at least one data point.
Cheers,
Antony Blakey
-------------
CTO, Linkuistics Pty Ltd
Ph: 0438 840 787
He who would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy
from repression.
-- Thomas Paine
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Antony Blakey <an...@gmail.com>.
On 08/03/2009, at 11:47 PM, Benoit Chesneau wrote:
> Launching such service is a good idee, and I would say "bravo".
Indeed, a commercial culture around CouchDB is a good thing when
trying to sell this technology.
> But I think this is unfair to use couchdb name as a company and using
> the "couchdb.com" as website. Unfair for all other projects coming or
> existing that (would) provide such service or any commercial service
> based on couchdb.
<snip>
> That said. I just would like to add i'm not against such service.
> That's not the point. I like this idee and I hope it will work for
> you. What I dislike, and I'm strongly against it, is that you use
> couchdb name for **your** service. For me that mean i have to
> reconsider the way I endorse couchdb in my projects and I feel bad. I
> really hope you don't already make any legal administrative stuff
> about it and that your are ok to change/think about another name.
This issue has had an immediate impact on my first deployed CouchDB
project.
To date I have had a 'Built with CouchDB' link on every page.
Unfortunately, having a company called CouchDB Ltd, at couchdb.com
turns that link into an advertisement for a competitor to our
consultancy and development business in this space - specifically, the
space defined by our use of CouchDB (albeit a branch version). We feel
this way because co-opting the name and domain name for a consultancy
business is a form of implicit endorsement, so we will no longer be
including such a link, nor promoting CouchDB. This will be an ongoing
problem, because simply mentioning the name advertises a competitor.
C'est la vie.
I understand the attraction - if I owned the name, I'd be tempted, and
I'm not being critical of Jan or Chris - I'm simply saying that this
is one immediate impact. I also have no basis for saying whether this
opinion will be widespread or not, nor whether it will have any
significant effect, but my company is at least one data point.
Cheers,
Antony Blakey
-------------
CTO, Linkuistics Pty Ltd
Ph: 0438 840 787
He who would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy
from repression.
-- Thomas Paine
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Benoit Chesneau <bc...@gmail.com>.
2009/3/6 Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org>:
> Dear CouchDB Community,
>
> Chris Anderson, Francesco Cesarini, Marcus Taylor and I are proud to
> present CouchDB Ltd., a CouchDB-centered support, consulting, training
> & development company.
>
> Why a commercial entity? I (Jan) have been doing commercial CouchDB
> consulting for the last nine months and I simply can't keep up with
> the demand. So I started looking for partners. First, meet Francesco
> and Marcus of Erlang Training and Consulting. They are providing the
> same services we will provide for CouchDB, just for Erlang. With
> CouchDB written in Erlang, this couldn't be a better fit. Next up is
> Chris. I don't have to tell you how much of CouchDB's success is part
> of his work. He's also been working on CouchDB-related things only for
> the past months. The Ltd. is simply a way of organizing our efforts
> and fulfilling the enormous (really) demand for professional CouchDB
> services.
>
> Where is the catch? — We have a hard time finding one. Chris and I
> both live and breath open source and so far, all our commercial
> projects have allowed us to contribute back to the CouchDB source or
> related open source projects. And we will continue to do so. Instead
> of a catch, we believe that this of great benefit for CouchDB and the
> community. We'll have two more full-time CouchDB contributers, next to
> Damien. Hooray!
>
> The CouchDB Ltd. website will go live at http://couchdb.com/ in the
> next one or two weeks. We'll make sure that there's a link and a note
> back to the official website & project on every relevant page. CouchDB
> Ltd. is at it's heart an open source company, invested in the success
> of CouchDB. We believe that making commercial support available will
> extend the range of companies and products that are able and willing
> to take a bet on a new technology.
>
> If you have any questions, feel free to reply to this thread or email
> Chris or me directly.
>
> Thank you all for making CouchDB the phenomenal success it is now!
>
> Cheers
> Jan, Chris, Francesco & Marcus
> --
>
>
Launching such service is a good idee, and I would say "bravo".
But I think this is unfair to use couchdb name as a company and using
the "couchdb.com" as website. Unfair for all other projects coming or
existing that (would) provide such service or any commercial service
based on couchdb. It mean for common people that couchdb is an
opensource project given by a a commercial service ie people who use
.com as default and people who will search for couchdb in search
engines. Imo this a bad idee. By doing this you create another
company, which was not the promise given at first by the couchdb
project. I hope it's still time to change the name of the company and
its website url. Couchdb was and is currently for me an open source
project first, this isn't the case if you use this name as a
commercial entity. And it may be the same for other people. More over,
why people would want to spread the couchdb name in the future if it
is just to give some indirect advertising for a company ? Creating
"Couchdb ltd" and any company using this name (i hope not) remove some
freedom to the source and the promise of independant development
(maybe it won't but I speak about promise).
If you want some endorsement (and you don't need it...), that make you
one provider couchdb service and a good provider (which it is since
you are developers in couchdb opensource project), why not just make a
page on couchdb that link to your service and use another name. That's
would be better.
That said. I just would like to add i'm not against such service.
That's not the point. I like this idee and I hope it will work for
you. What I dislike, and I'm strongly against it, is that you use
couchdb name for **your** service. For me that mean i have to
reconsider the way I endorse couchdb in my projects and I feel bad. I
really hope you don't already make any legal administrative stuff
about it and that your are ok to change/think about another name.
- benoît.
Re: [user] Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Wout Mertens <wm...@cisco.com>.
I too wish to wish you lots of luck in this endeavour!
I just finished rewriting an application using CouchDB and it is
faster, more logical, with less code than before. I even managed to
add in a few features I was missing because CouchDB allows me to
simply store a hash of arrays, something I was putting off to express
in RDBMS-isms.
So help the world find out how great the CouchDB concepts are and good
things will follow! (one would hope)
Wout.
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Mike Malone <mj...@gmail.com>.
Congrats, Jan!
I think this is great news for you and for CouchDB. Open source projects can
benefit a great deal from having some entity provide commercial support. It
legitimizes the project and reduces risk.
Good luck,
Mike
On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 9:34 AM, Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
> Dear CouchDB Community,
>
> Chris Anderson, Francesco Cesarini, Marcus Taylor and I are proud to
> present CouchDB Ltd., a CouchDB-centered support, consulting, training
> & development company.
>
> Why a commercial entity? I (Jan) have been doing commercial CouchDB
> consulting for the last nine months and I simply can't keep up with
> the demand. So I started looking for partners. First, meet Francesco
> and Marcus of Erlang Training and Consulting. They are providing the
> same services we will provide for CouchDB, just for Erlang. With
> CouchDB written in Erlang, this couldn't be a better fit. Next up is
> Chris. I don't have to tell you how much of CouchDB's success is part
> of his work. He's also been working on CouchDB-related things only for
> the past months. The Ltd. is simply a way of organizing our efforts
> and fulfilling the enormous (really) demand for professional CouchDB
> services.
>
> Where is the catch? — We have a hard time finding one. Chris and I
> both live and breath open source and so far, all our commercial
> projects have allowed us to contribute back to the CouchDB source or
> related open source projects. And we will continue to do so. Instead
> of a catch, we believe that this of great benefit for CouchDB and the
> community. We'll have two more full-time CouchDB contributers, next to
> Damien. Hooray!
>
> The CouchDB Ltd. website will go live at http://couchdb.com/ in the
> next one or two weeks. We'll make sure that there's a link and a note
> back to the official website & project on every relevant page. CouchDB
> Ltd. is at it's heart an open source company, invested in the success
> of CouchDB. We believe that making commercial support available will
> extend the range of companies and products that are able and willing
> to take a bet on a new technology.
>
> If you have any questions, feel free to reply to this thread or email
> Chris or me directly.
>
> Thank you all for making CouchDB the phenomenal success it is now!
>
> Cheers
> Jan, Chris, Francesco & Marcus
> --
>
>
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Domingo Aguilera <do...@gmail.com>.
Congratulations!
I sure you'll going to be a success.
>
Re: Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Kerr Rainey <ke...@gmail.com>.
2009/3/6 Jan Lehnardt <ja...@apache.org>:
> Chris Anderson, Francesco Cesarini, Marcus Taylor and I are proud to
> present CouchDB Ltd., a CouchDB-centered support, consulting, training
> & development company.
Great news! A fantastic sign of a healthy CouchDB ecosystem.
--
Kerr
Re: [user] Introducing CouchDB Ltd.
Posted by Wout Mertens <wm...@cisco.com>.
I too wish to wish you lots of luck in this endeavour!
I just finished rewriting an application using CouchDB and it is
faster, more logical, with less code than before. I even managed to
add in a few features I was missing because CouchDB allows me to
simply store a hash of arrays, something I was putting off to express
in RDBMS-isms.
So help the world find out how great the CouchDB concepts are and good
things will follow! (one would hope)
Wout.